It’s the official comments thread for “Hulk #77,” out this week.
Whad’ja think?
144 comments on “Okay…you know you want it. Here it is…”
Oh, and I don’t know if this’ll add to your retailer woes, but I didn’t see any copies of Hulk 77 on the shelves. He might have had 900 copies squared away on reserve, (he pulled my copy out of my weekly bag), but I don’t know for sure.
Actually, I might as well just as ask it here.
Can I have an ancient suspicion confirmed?
Just before the Pantheon saga began Bruce merged his personality with that of the grey Hulk and the green Hulk to become one fused, merged not-quite-perfect Hulk-Bruce personality? The three-in-one dude was just that, removing Paul Jenkins’ later retcons?
That was stated flat-out and I assume of course that it’s true. The new Hulk’s body was taller than the green Hulk (who was already taller than grey Hulk) and had more of grey’s build? And he couldn’t transform to Banner-form physically.
The biggest thing that I’d actually like to confirm is that when Bruce was split from the Hulk during the Onslaught thing was what we got a Hulk with the merged personalities of the green Hulk and grey Hulk? The body, of course, never changed.
When Banner returned and re-merged physically with this Hulk he didn’t re-merge psychologically as well. He transformed from himself into that Hulk body…. and the Banner personality and the two-fused-in-one Hulk personality co-existed.
Did I read those comics right?
. I’m not new, I’m not flavor-of-the-month, and I’m not British,
Have you concidered getting a monocle and speaking with an accent?
Hope you don’t mind a slighter longer comment. This is a review I’ve written up for an alternative newspaper which I write for. Thought it also might be appropriate to post it here. Please note that it’s written for comic book virgins, which is why I explain stuff that obviously everyone here already knows. My headline for the piece is “Acclaimed writer’s return to ‘Hulk’ is somewhat less than ‘smashing’ “:
If you
Yipiiehh. Got my two copies of Hulk over in Germany today! I love it and will keep on buying the next issues… Enough of this ‘i am on the run and can’t get rest’-stuff.
“As for Betty… I think the Leader, who was supposedly “Dead” twice over, was revealed to have ressurected Betty, but also gave her plastic surgery so she looks like the actress who played her in the movie…”
I personally think she’s an android or an imposter who had Betty’s memories implanted into her by the Leader, who got áhøld of them during that period of time when Betty was his hostage. I don’t buy the plastic surgery thing.
Uhm…Shortdawg? I’m not entirely sure if you’re aware of this, or if you’re just deliberately abridging Hulk history to keep things quick and succinct for the purpose of your article, but Peter David wasn’t replaced by Bruce Jones – he wouldn’t take over writing chores on the title until much later. The person you’re referring to is John Byrne.
Now, as for Hulk #77 – if the big guy, green OR gray, actually continues to appear for more than one panel per issue (the sound you just heard was Bruce Jones’s head exploding), you won’t hear any complaints from ME.
Having Peter David return to HULK is like having Clinton taking over the Oval Office again after George W.. Like Clinton, Peter had his fair share of detractors. But also like Clinton, after being compared to a subsequent successor, it’s odd how detractors abruptly change their tune:
“For God’s sake, Peter, have the Hulk struggling with a clogged toilet for an entire issue, for all we care! WELCOME BACK, MAN!!”
> Uhm…Shortdawg? I’m not entirely sure if you’re aware of this, or if you’re just deliberately abridging Hulk history to keep things quick and succinct for the purpose of your article, but Peter David wasn’t replaced by Bruce Jones – he wouldn’t take over writing chores on the title until much later. The person you’re referring to is John Byrne.
Earlier still – it was actually Joe Casey. And it wasn’t so much “fresh blood,” as Marvel wanted a mute/Savage Hulk, PAD wanted to continue his story as planned, and thus…
Have you concidered getting a monocle and speaking with an accent?
Peter.
Listen to your fans.
They know what they’re talking about.
Trust me, monacles are hip. Its gonna be the “in” fashion in 2005. Expect many stars to show up with monacles at the Oscars in Feb.
Do it. Now.
PAD,
Ok, I got my copy. I read it. I was confused. That is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I do know I will be picking up at least the next 5 issues to finish this series (and perhaps longer if you do stay on the title). But the shark thing just didn’t work for me. That may be an artist thing (who overall did a great job), where he just didn’t quite draw it the way you visualized it. But starting out having to r-read the first few pages 5 times does not get me off to a great start.
As a fan of Madrox, I did miss the dialog. But by the end, I realized I was applying wrong expectations. Hulk is not Madrox. The dialog was very appropriate. And it drew me in quite effectively.
If I had to give a score, it is an 8 out of 10. It was not the homerun out of the box like Madrox was for me, but then again, I was more of an X-Factor fan than a Hulk fan.
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter. Previous posters seem to forget that, at least as I recall, this was originally conceived as being a 6 issue limited series. So it was not written as the “triumphal return” in one monthly issue. Nor was it written solely to be a monthly title collected as a trade. Knowing this, apart from just not getting the shark thing, I thought it was a great opening act and can’t wait for the next chapter/act in the story.
I never got into the Hulk until the last 2 years or so of your run, and I dropped it with your last issue, so the fact that you have renewed my interest is a credit to your writing and not any inherent interest in the character. Unlike Iron Man which I seem to collect no matter who is writing it–I just think the character and suit are cool!–I only get the Hulk because of an interest in the stories you tell.
(Unlike the two hour Alias, which vastly disappointed me. Could you *PLEASE* do a Cowboy Pete so that I can vent? Pretty please???)
Jim in Iowa
Shortdawg… while Peter David did many fine things to the title, told great stories and good overal story arcs, as well as improving many features and aspects of the series, the guy who introduced the psychological elements to the Hulk series was Bill Mantlo.
Your alternative newspaper should issue a retraction.
Crediting Peter David for introducing the Multiple Personality aspect of the series (instead of improving it) is like like crediting Bill Mantlo for coming up with the idea of the Hulk rampaging and fighting aliens and smashing things.
It’s like crediting Henry Ford for inventing the automobile or automobile production when he actually invented the automobile assembly line thus making automobile production better.
It’s like crediting William F. Buckley for formulating and inspiring political Conservatism or Chris Claremont for creating Magneto.
We shouldn’t forget or mock the great stuff that Peter David has created in and for the Hulk series, but at the same time we shouldn’t piss on the foundation of all of that.
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter.
Sorry, in my haste I did not proof my post. I obviously didn’t complete my thought. Here is what I meant to say:
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter of a great story.
Also, I meant to type “reread” not “r-read.”
Jim in Iowa
Joe Casey…?
Ah! That’s right! I was thinking along the lines of the “rebooted” series, and completely forgot about the post-David issues leading up to #474. Mah bad.
“Crediting Peter David for introducing the Multiple Personality aspect of the series (instead of improving it) is like like crediting Bill Mantlo for coming up with the idea of the Hulk rampaging and fighting aliens and smashing things.”
Actually, of the things that are misreported in the piece, that’s the closest to the truth.
It’s a fine line, and I’ve never hesitated to inform/remind people that it was Bill (or possibly Barry Windsor-Smith, depending who you talk to) who introduced the history of Bruce’s being abused as a child. Bill, however, never actually used the phrase “MPD” or established that more than one Hulk personality was rattling around in Bruce’s skull at any given time. I did that. I basically looked at what had been written and realized that all the groundwork for MPD had been laid, but never actually explored.
PAD
Liked it. Scripting was clever, plot was interesting and the art was good.
My only complaint was it seemed a bit drawn out. When I got to the final scene, I felt as though I had only read half of a comic. Still, that “half” was impressive. I’ll be back to check out the next one.
Shortdawg… while Peter David did many fine things to the title, told great stories and good overal story arcs, as well as improving many features and aspects of the series, the guy who introduced the psychological elements to the Hulk series was Bill Mantlo.
Your alternative newspaper should issue a retraction.
As PAD mentioned, yeah, Bill Mantlo was the main culprit, but his work, it can be argued, was plagiarized from an aborted Barry Windsor-Smith Hulk project…which is making its way to comics in an extended novel within the next few years. Heck, the stuff Mantlo expanded upon was really started by Roger Stern during his tenure on the book, which suggested the key to the Hulk’s development lay deep in Banner’s past–that the Hulk existed before the G-bomb. Check “The Monster’s Analyst,” in IH #227, and the issue previous, for some fun.
~Gary
Okay, was I the only one who thought that the giant squid looked like the Leader and the two-headed monster resembled Abomination?
So what did I think?
Well, this is the first issue of Hulk I ever purchased. EVER.
Unless you count that Giant-Sized Treasury Edition that I got at a garage sale when I was a wee kid that had Hulk travelling to Earth-2…
Anyway, I liked it. Which isn’t to say I loved it. I guess I’ve been spoiled by Supergirl, New Frontier and Fallen Angel that I expected a little more right from the get-go.
However, what was here was intriguing. I will say, the Shark stuff didn’t read very clearly to me the first time either. But some of that was because I missed the fish tail he was holding and the like.
I’m intrigued to see where it goes from here. The art was very cool – it almost reminded me a bit of Byrnes work at times, strangely… and the ending was a great way to keep me coming back for more. I’m all for it. Now if only I could find Issue 1 of Madrox so I could collect that series…
Peter –
It is certainly a pleasure to have you back with us. This title has lacked any sense of psychological drama, action, consistent characterisation and purpose over the past few years – it was very rewarding to see all of these elements in your very first issue! Most importantly, I was very excited to see you exploring Bruce’s desire to be a ‘hero’ in this issue. Portraying the Hulk as a hero, however flawed, is central to the character and I sometimes feel that you have allowed your characters to spend too much time on the ‘dark side’ (eg Genis-Vell). Don’t get me wrong, I like that you explore the darker sides of a character’s personality. However, I also need to believe in the ultimate nobility of the Hulk and it was refreshing to see you starting to explore this aspect of Bruce’s character.
I eagerly look forward to Part 2!
Regards,
Matt
Thought it was outstanding.
One of the things that made Peter’s original Hulk run so remarkable was his ability and willingness to twist his entire status quo 90 degrees into an unexpected new direction every year or so. “Tempest Fugit” does it again: same character, new insights, new scenario, fresh entertainment.
And I don’t understand what was so confusing about the shark. I thought it was very simple: [i]This big guy is one baaaaaad mutha.[/i]
Well, the buzz on the issue brought me back to my local comic store after an almost two year run.
So in a sense, that is good for the comic store owner and the comic industry and yet, bad for my bank account and wallet.
I hung out and talked with the owner for about 45 minutes: about wrestling, football, and most of all, comics. What I’ve been missing, what’s good, what’s decent. I picked up some of the Pfeifer (sp) run on Aquaman, Ultimates 2 #1, and of course, Hulk.
The Aquaman issues and storyline were rushed and absurd. Not quite sure why it was getting buzz.
Ultimates was solid.
Hulk…well, I wish I could just chalk up the lack of clarity, action, words, anything of substance to a first issue of an arc…but even with those excuses or explanations, the issue still falls short for me.
Which is a shame. I’m a big PAD fan, don’t get me wrong. I’ve got the Apropos novels, I’ve got the King Arthur novels, the NF novels, the Aquamans, the Young Justices.
And even though I wanted to like this book, it was read in 20 seconds and what little words their were came off too silly to even be PAD.
The art? I’m wasn’t a big fan. The two headed monster was just not very good.
I hate to be sounding so negative but that’s what was going through my mind at the time. Everything just seemed too drawn out yet rushed and everything about the thing was average.
I haven’t been much of a Hulk fan, I admit, but felt this would be something of a inspiration for me to get into the character. So far it hasn’t yet.
Yeah, I’ll check out the next issue, and yeah, I know I’m being negative. Chalk it up to higher expectations if you must, but honestly nothing in the book stood out for me.
God, I sound like a bitter critic who hates everything…what have I become?
It felt like an early Image comic to me. Mostly many pages with mostly fight scenes and very little dialogue, and two pages of some flashback backstory. I breezed through it in just minutes. I didn’t understand what Hulk was doing underwater, what that weird octopus monster was, or in general, what was going on. The revelation of the breathing liquid his body produces was a surprise, though I’m not sure why nobody ever knew about it before. The most interesting part storywise was the last page.
The art was adequate, but not much else. With its simplified faces, heavy brushstrokes and overuse of hatching and other linework, it seemed like a cross of John Romita Jr. and Mike Deodato, neither of whose artwork I think is very good. I don’t understand, for example, why the Hulk’s right arm is in shadow on the last page, but his left arm isn’t. Just what light source is producing this effect? It’s unfortunate that the last adquate Hulk artist Peter worked was Adam Kubert, and the last really great one was Gary Frank (whose cover of What If…?, btw, was just beautiful).
Hopefully it’ll get better.
Shortdawg: But roughly five years ago, David was abruptly ousted as Hulk writer by management weasels at Marvel Comics…
Luigi Novi: I thought Peter quit?
Oh, gods…I just remembered I have an Kubert drawn issue of the Hulk that is perhaps the worst artistically rendered book I have ever seen. I was horrified when I read it and I’m still in shock. Maybe I’ll go find the issue number soon.
It’s just so so bad.
Kubert’s work can be great–when altered with jazzy coloring.
Peter,
While I did enjoy the issue, it was certainly paced somewhat differently than a lot of your past work, even to some extent Captain Marvel. Thank heavens for the scenes set in the past. I guess what I’m getting at is this: did marvel editorial force you to decompress? It had the same sort of feeling I got from Geoff Johns Avengers run, which is the only work of his I’ve ever seen that I didn’t like.
That is, not a lot happened. Or at least what did happen could have easily happened in a lot less pages.
I think that’s what the previous poster meant about being spoiled by Fallen Angel or Supergirl.
I did still enjoy it and I’m staying on board, but it just felt a heck of a lot like what it was, a better than average 2005 Marvel book.
Matt
“While I did enjoy the issue, it was certainly paced somewhat differently than a lot of your past work, even to some extent Captain Marvel. Thank heavens for the scenes set in the past. I guess what I’m getting at is this: did marvel editorial force you to decompress?”
You know…I have to say, I find this whole “Company mandated” compressed/decompressed discussion that pervades the net to be complete and total crap. It’s not just you; it’s everywhere I see it, and I think it’s nonsense.
Anyone see “Amadeus?” The Emperor saying, “Too many notes,Mozart.” And a stunned Mozart explaining that he uses exactly as many notes as he needs to tell the story, no more, no less.
I wanted to open the story with the Hulk on his way to the island, rather than just something boring like washing up or landing on it, which we’ve seen a million times.
I wanted to give Lee Weeks some room to strut his stuff, especially in response to fans who were dismissive of him when he was announced as the penciler.
I wanted to give the book a different feel than the way I was writing Hulk before, because for every fan who said, “Hurrah, PAD is back on the book” there was another who said, “But we know what to expect from him, so there will be no sense of discovery or surprise.”
Since the island is the site of a five issue story arc, I wanted to give the Hulk at least one other venue in which to strut his stuff.
With all of that to consider, I wrote the first issue the way I did. Does everyone see how compression/decompression doesn’t even begin to enter into it? Not a lot of dialogue? What could I possibly have added to the first pages that would have improved upon it?
Once upon a time we had writers, and readers, who were mostly influenced by books. So you’d get a Superman story where one panel would read: “CAPTION: And so Superman takes off, flying for a solid week through space to take him to the far off planet of Urgh. But as he approaches, he gets a most unexpected surprise.” The art is Superman looking surprised as a squad of armed warriors is flying toward him. And Superman is thinking, “Great Krypton! An entire hoard of flying men, ready to attack me!”
That’s panel one. Panel two: “CAPTION: Moments later, after a brutal struggle, Superman realizes the futilit of fighting and allows himself to be brought before the planet’s queen, Lura Loo, who unbeknownst to Superman must find a husband before sunset!” The art has Superman being dragged before her, and the queen is thinking, “Who is this handsome stranger? Could he be the one I’ve been waiting for?!”
And there’s eight, nine of those panels on a page.
Anyone think that’s better?
Like it or not, the quick cutting of MTV and the reduced attention span of the Sesame Street generation has changed the way storytelling in all forms of entertainment–film, TV, movie–is being told. So this singling out of comics is unfair, ridiculous and tiresome.
PAD
PAD,
I apologize since I seem to have mistaken a deliberate artistic decision for something that it wasn’t. I should have known better, especially knowing what I know about your work.
That said, Marvel does have me jumping at shadows when it comes to this one. I don’t think I’m making this up. I don’t think that the idea that comics are being “written for the trade” is a myth in the least. I also think that it’s appearing FAR more in comics, and in Marvel comics in particular.
Look at the number of six issue storylines that Marvel is putting out now compared to five years ago. This is at a time where Marvel is releasing more trade paperbacks than ever, and is aiming at a bookstore audience more than ever. I just ran through the solicitations for March and I found around 23 titles which were in the midst of a 6 issue storyline, though some were limited series. There were also a number of 5 issue storylines and I think one seven issue storyline.
Some writers do it very well. Mr. Bendis generally is one. I think that the writers of New X-Men: Academy X deal with the format very well. JMS said recently that his FF run is going to be made up of a number of 6-issue storylines, and that he’s looking forward to the added detail that format offers him. Joss Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men has managed it fairly well also. Brian K Vaughan seems to be doing well with it too.
Some writers tend to fare somewhat less well. The example I used above was Geoff Johns, one of my favorite comic writers, and how drawn out his Red Zone storyline felt. I think Chuck Austen’s X-Men run would have been far less painful if arcs like the Draco didn’t run six issues.
I understand why you’d be upset. I apologize for insinuating something in your writing that obviously wasn’t there. Past forums such as this, I freely admit that I have no direct access to what’s going on in the minds of the writers and the editors, and all I can do is tell you my observations from reading comics most of my life, and what those obeservations tell me is that Marvel is encouraging its writers to write extended 6-issue arcs, often to the detriment of a story which might have been shorter five years ago. It’s not something that I’ve noticed in other forms of media to bother me as much as in comics.
I’m so used to seeing and feeling that sort of decompression, or I suppose, to be fair, what I think to be that sort of decompression that I saw it almost as a reflex in the first issue of your Hulk run, and again, I apologize for that. I’ll try to be a little more disconcerting in the future.
Matt
PS. For the record, your run on Supergirl might have my favorite pacing ever in a comic, but I’ve already taken enough of your time, so I won’t babble on about that.
Mssr. David,
I agree with that Qel-Droma cat — I was not very impressed. I have ever single issue of your last run (started at the “merge” and worked my way around to get it all).
I understand your point on “using all the notes you think you need” to tell the story. The flaw, then, may be in the story, not in your application of craft. I don’t know yet — I have one issue, which I found underwhelming (my fault for having hopes).
In my writing workshop, one time I was asked about a story point, and I proceeded to explain what I meant. The questioner waited for me to be done and asked, “why isn’t any of that in the piece?” I was stuck. If a piece of writing misses its intended target, that’s a mis-step in either concept or craft.
Which is not to take anything away from your considerable talent, or my years of enjoying your work (I did stick with Fallen Angel as you suggested, and I did like it better).
Your mileage, as always, may vary. Best.
-H
As unintentionally funny as it might be, I meant to say discerning and not disconcerting at the end there. My fingers move faster than my brain. Sorry.
Collin. Not Colin. Not Colinl. Just a reminder! 🙂
I had a feeling if enough people echoed those sentiments that it would raise your ire.
The thing is though, it’s not just a quick cutting and attention span thing, though I must admit, it’s tempting to chalk it up to.
It’s actually a “what we got wasn’t very good” thing. Yes, it’s the beginning of an arc. Yes, it was slow on purpose. Yes, I personally GOT what you were doing…I just didn’t like it.
I wasn’t into the art so I wanted the writing to distract me. It didn’t. It just wasn’t sparse dialogue…but what was there wasn’t good. Talking about his lungs was silly and you know it.
I can also see why the shark thing was confusing. I saw what was going on but I did have to re-read it after the panel where Hulk is walking and there is seemingly no shark in his hand and the next he is holding up the bottom half and it’s not clear that it’s actually ripped apart. That’s more an artistic problem.
It just went too fast and we walked away with nothing. I have no clue what Monster Isle is, and maybe that’s my fault…but I’m a new reader so help me out.
Honestly, for me, I just didn’t like the story of Hulk walking in the water, passing out, and continued next time. Perhaps I was looking for a side plotline that didn’t come, who knows.
You ask “What’ja think” and we tell you. You know yourself the issue wasn’t anything great and it was average as can be. I know you don’t believe all the gushing. Maybe I, and Matt D is the minority here but we had something to say because you asked.
In the grand scheme of the arc, I doubt it will matter, that’s because you are a solid writer, in fact my favorite at this point in my life. But as of right now, this first issue wasn’t interesting and the art couldn’t carry it.
Since my sabbatical from comics I’ve continued to read tons of novels. Sometimes 600 pages. I don’t watch TV much and so I do suffer from the quick cut syndrome. I just didn’t like the issue.
I will buy your next one, that’s for sure, and I still drop your name at every oppurtunity. (Apropos Book One was a gift I gave this Christmas).
Maybe it’s wrong of anyone to assume that this arc is written for the upcoming trade…it honestly didn’t cross my mind since I don’t read them. But can you really blame anyone for that jaded way of thinking?
1Just figured I’d say that I really enjoyed this issue. I’ve never been into Hulk but I liked the issue and I’ll be on for reading it as long as you are on. I’ll also give some props to Matt Adler for reccomending the book.
“It’s actually a “what we got wasn’t very good” thing. Yes, it’s the beginning of an arc. Yes, it was slow on purpose. Yes, I personally GOT what you were doing…I just didn’t like it.”
And I’ve got no problem with that. I’ve been doing this for twenty years, and in all that time, never–NEVER–have I produced a work that absolutely, positively everyone who read it said they liked.
To me, the number of people who said they loved it is staggeringly gratifying. I was fully prepared, since the comic was SO different from everything else I’ve done, to have the vast majority of people echo your sentiments. I felt as if fans would essentially be saying, “This first issue better measure up to the best of the best of twelve years worth of stories or I’m outta here.” And what could I write that could possibly meet those sorts of expectations?
I just wanted to make it clear that, in broad strokes, I think comics are getting something of an unfair rap considering the stylistic sea change we see in so many forms of storytelling these days.
PAD
Yes, like any good biopic, I did compress history a bit just to simplify things for the uninformed and make things flow better dramatically. Thus ignoring Bill Mantlo’s own psychological complexities and the various other writers between PAD and Jones. Still, while the facts might be slightly fudged, I think “the truth” remains undisputed.
What is the problem with the Bl**dy Shark? Hulk ripped it in half-end of story, move on.
I was really impressed with the issue purely because it is the most panels Hulk has appeared on in his own book for YEARS!!!
MORE PLEASE!
People mentioning Bill Mantlo above, what happened to him anyway. The last issue I can find with his name on it was Marvel Fanfare#47 (I think that was the number). I asked the question several years ago in Comics international but nobody could answer it.
The artist I would like to draw Hulk-given the choice would be Ivan Reis who drew a mean Hulk in the Order.
Ian
People mentioning Bill Mantlo above, what happened to him anyway. The last issue I can find with his name on it was Marvel Fanfare#47 (I think that was the number). I asked the question several years ago in Comics international but nobody could answer it.
As I understand it from Tony Isabella’s blogs, columns and posts to racmu, (those interested can search out the particulars on their own) Mr. Mantlo was the victim of an (automobile?) accident a few years ago- the effects of which have robbed him of much of his capacity for writing, communicating or much in the way of memory, poor soul. I miss his writing very much myself. His run on “Micronauts” is one of my great childhood memories and was the first book I ever collected from start to finish.
I’ve just read on a Hulk web site that you are on record as saying you are on Hulk at least ’til the end of the year with an Abomination mini series as well? Is this true?
Now that you mention about Bill Mantlos’ accident, I think I vaguely remember it having been written on a Bull pen bulletins page at some point. A poor shame, I say a Hulk legends one shot should be printed to mark this oft forgotten Hulk writer. Petitions to The big Q at Marvel now!
Ian
Well, I’ve gotta agree that it certainly was different than I expected (not that I mean that in a bad way…) I, for one, had no problem with the long monologue about Hulk’s lungs. It made perfect sense to me that as Hulk changed back into Banner that a type of stream-of-conscousness rambling would occur, especially considering that both of them were exhausted. I also understood the shark bit immediately, so people’s confusion there is a bit puzzling to me.
All of that said, I’m actually gonna reserve judgement until I read a bit more. It’s kinda like reading the first ten pages of a novel and thinking you know whether it’s going to be the best thing ever; it just can’t be done. This is the first chapter, let’s see where it goes.
Oh, and on a personal level, I find it incredibly poetic that Peter’s Hulk returns to my life just around the time where some personal circumstances are bringing my own Hulk out in me. Let’s hope that I can deal with it as well as Bruce does…
Mr. Peter David,
HULK #77 was a fascinating read. It has an odd, intense atmosphere of mystery, and dread, which I haven’t seen in your entire previous 12-year body of work on THE INCREDIBLE HULK. Thank you for giving the Hulk a more substantial role in HIS OWN TITLE, as opposed to having him walk with a bunch of white poodles across one panel. Or appearing outside of a bank wearing a cowboy hat.
I’m a little confused about all the obsession that’s been directed at the ripped-apart SHARK, of all things. I’ve gradually noticed a strange, recurring symptom in fans over the years: they home in and fixate on one particular aspect of a comic/movie, and refuse to let it go over an extended period of time, in the process negating everything else – including the story as a whole. In Sam Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN, it was the organic webshooters. In Ang Lee’s HULK, it was the Hulk dogs.
I’m not jumping to conclusions until I’ve actually SEEN the conclusion of TEMPEST FUGIT. (Maybe I should re-read William Shakespeare’s text for clues to the possible outcome…?) In the meantime, BRAVO!
Mr. David,
Something else I forgot to mention. I especially liked the scene where the Hulk reverts back to Banner for the first time in the issue. The Hulk begins to talk like Banner, and then Banner for thr first few moments after his transformation speaks like the Hulk. A good example of how the two personalities “bleed” into one another sometimes without either being aware of it.
I liked it, for the most part. Only part that I didn’t quite like (apart from the Hulk outside of Banner at the end, but I assume this will be explained) is the retcon of Hulk not being able to breathe underwater.
I am not a big fan of giving Hulk more powers than he already has, which is quite a lot. I always liked the fact that Hulk *could* be killed by drowning or being placed in outerspace long enough. I liked the fact that for all his strength, speed, and regeneration, he was still after all limited by a humanoid body just like the rest of us. He can’t fly, he has to breathe, he has to eat.
Adding another power like that only makes it harder for someone like me to connect with the human-like aspect of Hulk as well as putting him one step closer to Invinciboy, Superman. You retconned the “Skin can’t be penetrated by Adamantium” which I accepted, for it was a change that came with a balance. Breathing underwater like Namor though? Harder for me to accept.
Peter David: I wanted to give Lee Weeks some room to strut his stuff, especially in response to fans who were dismissive of him when he was announced as the penciler.
Luigi Novi: Well if they were dismissive of him because they don
Glad to see you back on the Hulk!
I was a big fan of your work in the 90s. Just hearing that you were going to come back and work on the book made me re-read all the Hulk issues I have in my collection (around 100 or so).
The Hulk can breathe under water? I’m not sure why that would be. I remember in The End that the Hulk survived a nuclear holocaust so I guess his body could adapt to anything. At first I thought it was strange, then I thought it was funny, then I called all of my fellow Hulk fan friends and bragged at the new information that I just picked up.
Man, it’s been AGES since I’ve picked up the Hulk (I stopped reading it when the Hulk was still involved with the Pantheon and the Troyjan war was about to start). I’m wondering if he still says “Hulk Smash.”
Don’t make mine marvel… make mine David! That doesn’t sound right… make mine a rum and coke
-CCR
Jomero: Only part that I didn’t quite like (apart from the Hulk outside of Banner at the end, but I assume this will be explained) is the retcon of Hulk not being able to breathe underwater.
Luigi Novi: The premise is that he was able to breathe under water, but that he didn
I’m a little confused about all the obsession that’s been directed at the ripped-apart SHARK, of all things. I’ve gradually noticed a strange, recurring symptom in fans over the years: they home in and fixate on one particular aspect of a comic/movie, and refuse to let it go over an extended period of time, in the process negating everything else – including the story as a whole. In Sam Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN, it was the organic webshooters. In Ang Lee’s HULK, it was the Hulk dogs.
You are comparing apples to oranges. I did not obsess that PAD had Hulk rip a shark in half. I commented that I had to flip the pages back and forth 5 times before I *understood* that was happening. I am not commenting on the content of the story, but on the delivery and clarity of what was trying to be communicated. I think that may be what others were commenting on as well. And when it is the opening act of a book, it does have an impact. First impressions do count even in writing.
In regards to the “breathing under water” issue, I am curious. I need to reread the comic book again. I was not sure, but my first impression was that the Hulk adapted to the pressure of the water, and was not truly breathing. In essence, he was not converting water into oxygen, but his body had adapted so that he would not suffer the bends. I could be wrong, but that was what PAD was saying. I also was not sure that this has always been the case. I got the impression that this may have been a new “mutation” of his powers. If true, then it does not change what has happened in the past. (Of course, if my idea was right, the Hulk was holding his breath for a very long time!)
Jim in Iowa
Finally got a chance to read it (no new comics for three weeks because of vacation).
All in all not bad. The ad art turned me off to the title. But when I had a chance to see it in the book, I felt it fit and enjoyed it.
While I didn’t care for the Hulk breathing underwater aspect, it’s a minor thing.
I will definitely be checking out the next issue.
KIP
[quote]PAD: “Like it or not, the quick cutting of MTV and the reduced attention span of the Sesame Street generation has changed the way storytelling in all forms of entertainment–film, TV, movie–is being told. So this singling out of comics is unfair, ridiculous and tiresome.”[/quote]
While I see your point (in the Superman example) on the dialogue matching the captions matching the pictures, I don’t understand how “decompressed storytelling” is supposed to appeal to the MTV generation. Wouldn’t it make more sense to appeal to the MTV folks with the “uncompressed storytelling” of the Superman example?
If you want to appeal to people with short attention spans, how does taking your time with a given scene succeed in doing that?
Or am I misunderstanding the point?
You’re right that all forms of entertainment are changing, but it seems like most formats are speeding up. Comics on the other hand are slowing down.
Just skimmed throught the comments. The shark thing confused people? It seemed like a bit of clever misdirection on the first page (where it looks like the shark is swimming) but becomes very clear once the shark begins to drop. I thought it was cleverly done and gorgeously rendered, and ultimately clear. The best scene in the issue, IMO.
Rob S.
I really liked the issue!
First Hulk comic I’ve liked in years. Loved the bit with the shark. And the ending was pretty dámņ good as a cliffhanger for the next issue.
As a spokesmen for SAAPIM (Sharks Against Aggressive Portrayal in Media), I don’t think I have to tell you, Mr. David, how insulted and outraged we are at your newest comic.
Why, if I were half the shark as the one portrayed in your comic…
• 
Oh, and I don’t know if this’ll add to your retailer woes, but I didn’t see any copies of Hulk 77 on the shelves. He might have had 900 copies squared away on reserve, (he pulled my copy out of my weekly bag), but I don’t know for sure.
Actually, I might as well just as ask it here.
Can I have an ancient suspicion confirmed?
Just before the Pantheon saga began Bruce merged his personality with that of the grey Hulk and the green Hulk to become one fused, merged not-quite-perfect Hulk-Bruce personality? The three-in-one dude was just that, removing Paul Jenkins’ later retcons?
That was stated flat-out and I assume of course that it’s true. The new Hulk’s body was taller than the green Hulk (who was already taller than grey Hulk) and had more of grey’s build? And he couldn’t transform to Banner-form physically.
The biggest thing that I’d actually like to confirm is that when Bruce was split from the Hulk during the Onslaught thing was what we got a Hulk with the merged personalities of the green Hulk and grey Hulk? The body, of course, never changed.
When Banner returned and re-merged physically with this Hulk he didn’t re-merge psychologically as well. He transformed from himself into that Hulk body…. and the Banner personality and the two-fused-in-one Hulk personality co-existed.
Did I read those comics right?
. I’m not new, I’m not flavor-of-the-month, and I’m not British,
Have you concidered getting a monocle and speaking with an accent?
Hope you don’t mind a slighter longer comment. This is a review I’ve written up for an alternative newspaper which I write for. Thought it also might be appropriate to post it here. Please note that it’s written for comic book virgins, which is why I explain stuff that obviously everyone here already knows. My headline for the piece is “Acclaimed writer’s return to ‘Hulk’ is somewhat less than ‘smashing’ “:
If you
Yipiiehh. Got my two copies of Hulk over in Germany today! I love it and will keep on buying the next issues… Enough of this ‘i am on the run and can’t get rest’-stuff.
“As for Betty… I think the Leader, who was supposedly “Dead” twice over, was revealed to have ressurected Betty, but also gave her plastic surgery so she looks like the actress who played her in the movie…”
I personally think she’s an android or an imposter who had Betty’s memories implanted into her by the Leader, who got áhøld of them during that period of time when Betty was his hostage. I don’t buy the plastic surgery thing.
Uhm…Shortdawg? I’m not entirely sure if you’re aware of this, or if you’re just deliberately abridging Hulk history to keep things quick and succinct for the purpose of your article, but Peter David wasn’t replaced by Bruce Jones – he wouldn’t take over writing chores on the title until much later. The person you’re referring to is John Byrne.
Now, as for Hulk #77 – if the big guy, green OR gray, actually continues to appear for more than one panel per issue (the sound you just heard was Bruce Jones’s head exploding), you won’t hear any complaints from ME.
Having Peter David return to HULK is like having Clinton taking over the Oval Office again after George W.. Like Clinton, Peter had his fair share of detractors. But also like Clinton, after being compared to a subsequent successor, it’s odd how detractors abruptly change their tune:
“For God’s sake, Peter, have the Hulk struggling with a clogged toilet for an entire issue, for all we care! WELCOME BACK, MAN!!”
> Uhm…Shortdawg? I’m not entirely sure if you’re aware of this, or if you’re just deliberately abridging Hulk history to keep things quick and succinct for the purpose of your article, but Peter David wasn’t replaced by Bruce Jones – he wouldn’t take over writing chores on the title until much later. The person you’re referring to is John Byrne.
Earlier still – it was actually Joe Casey. And it wasn’t so much “fresh blood,” as Marvel wanted a mute/Savage Hulk, PAD wanted to continue his story as planned, and thus…
Have you concidered getting a monocle and speaking with an accent?
Peter.
Listen to your fans.
They know what they’re talking about.
Trust me, monacles are hip. Its gonna be the “in” fashion in 2005. Expect many stars to show up with monacles at the Oscars in Feb.
Do it. Now.
PAD,
Ok, I got my copy. I read it. I was confused. That is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I do know I will be picking up at least the next 5 issues to finish this series (and perhaps longer if you do stay on the title). But the shark thing just didn’t work for me. That may be an artist thing (who overall did a great job), where he just didn’t quite draw it the way you visualized it. But starting out having to r-read the first few pages 5 times does not get me off to a great start.
As a fan of Madrox, I did miss the dialog. But by the end, I realized I was applying wrong expectations. Hulk is not Madrox. The dialog was very appropriate. And it drew me in quite effectively.
If I had to give a score, it is an 8 out of 10. It was not the homerun out of the box like Madrox was for me, but then again, I was more of an X-Factor fan than a Hulk fan.
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter. Previous posters seem to forget that, at least as I recall, this was originally conceived as being a 6 issue limited series. So it was not written as the “triumphal return” in one monthly issue. Nor was it written solely to be a monthly title collected as a trade. Knowing this, apart from just not getting the shark thing, I thought it was a great opening act and can’t wait for the next chapter/act in the story.
I never got into the Hulk until the last 2 years or so of your run, and I dropped it with your last issue, so the fact that you have renewed my interest is a credit to your writing and not any inherent interest in the character. Unlike Iron Man which I seem to collect no matter who is writing it–I just think the character and suit are cool!–I only get the Hulk because of an interest in the stories you tell.
(Unlike the two hour Alias, which vastly disappointed me. Could you *PLEASE* do a Cowboy Pete so that I can vent? Pretty please???)
Jim in Iowa
Shortdawg… while Peter David did many fine things to the title, told great stories and good overal story arcs, as well as improving many features and aspects of the series, the guy who introduced the psychological elements to the Hulk series was Bill Mantlo.
Your alternative newspaper should issue a retraction.
Crediting Peter David for introducing the Multiple Personality aspect of the series (instead of improving it) is like like crediting Bill Mantlo for coming up with the idea of the Hulk rampaging and fighting aliens and smashing things.
It’s like crediting Henry Ford for inventing the automobile or automobile production when he actually invented the automobile assembly line thus making automobile production better.
It’s like crediting William F. Buckley for formulating and inspiring political Conservatism or Chris Claremont for creating Magneto.
We shouldn’t forget or mock the great stuff that Peter David has created in and for the Hulk series, but at the same time we shouldn’t piss on the foundation of all of that.
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter.
Sorry, in my haste I did not proof my post. I obviously didn’t complete my thought. Here is what I meant to say:
Bottom line, I have a lot of confidence that this is the first chapter of a great story.
Also, I meant to type “reread” not “r-read.”
Jim in Iowa
Joe Casey…?
Ah! That’s right! I was thinking along the lines of the “rebooted” series, and completely forgot about the post-David issues leading up to #474. Mah bad.
“Crediting Peter David for introducing the Multiple Personality aspect of the series (instead of improving it) is like like crediting Bill Mantlo for coming up with the idea of the Hulk rampaging and fighting aliens and smashing things.”
Actually, of the things that are misreported in the piece, that’s the closest to the truth.
It’s a fine line, and I’ve never hesitated to inform/remind people that it was Bill (or possibly Barry Windsor-Smith, depending who you talk to) who introduced the history of Bruce’s being abused as a child. Bill, however, never actually used the phrase “MPD” or established that more than one Hulk personality was rattling around in Bruce’s skull at any given time. I did that. I basically looked at what had been written and realized that all the groundwork for MPD had been laid, but never actually explored.
PAD
Liked it. Scripting was clever, plot was interesting and the art was good.
My only complaint was it seemed a bit drawn out. When I got to the final scene, I felt as though I had only read half of a comic. Still, that “half” was impressive. I’ll be back to check out the next one.
Shortdawg… while Peter David did many fine things to the title, told great stories and good overal story arcs, as well as improving many features and aspects of the series, the guy who introduced the psychological elements to the Hulk series was Bill Mantlo.
Your alternative newspaper should issue a retraction.
As PAD mentioned, yeah, Bill Mantlo was the main culprit, but his work, it can be argued, was plagiarized from an aborted Barry Windsor-Smith Hulk project…which is making its way to comics in an extended novel within the next few years. Heck, the stuff Mantlo expanded upon was really started by Roger Stern during his tenure on the book, which suggested the key to the Hulk’s development lay deep in Banner’s past–that the Hulk existed before the G-bomb. Check “The Monster’s Analyst,” in IH #227, and the issue previous, for some fun.
~Gary
Okay, was I the only one who thought that the giant squid looked like the Leader and the two-headed monster resembled Abomination?
So what did I think?
Well, this is the first issue of Hulk I ever purchased. EVER.
Unless you count that Giant-Sized Treasury Edition that I got at a garage sale when I was a wee kid that had Hulk travelling to Earth-2…
Anyway, I liked it. Which isn’t to say I loved it. I guess I’ve been spoiled by Supergirl, New Frontier and Fallen Angel that I expected a little more right from the get-go.
However, what was here was intriguing. I will say, the Shark stuff didn’t read very clearly to me the first time either. But some of that was because I missed the fish tail he was holding and the like.
I’m intrigued to see where it goes from here. The art was very cool – it almost reminded me a bit of Byrnes work at times, strangely… and the ending was a great way to keep me coming back for more. I’m all for it. Now if only I could find Issue 1 of Madrox so I could collect that series…
Peter –
It is certainly a pleasure to have you back with us. This title has lacked any sense of psychological drama, action, consistent characterisation and purpose over the past few years – it was very rewarding to see all of these elements in your very first issue! Most importantly, I was very excited to see you exploring Bruce’s desire to be a ‘hero’ in this issue. Portraying the Hulk as a hero, however flawed, is central to the character and I sometimes feel that you have allowed your characters to spend too much time on the ‘dark side’ (eg Genis-Vell). Don’t get me wrong, I like that you explore the darker sides of a character’s personality. However, I also need to believe in the ultimate nobility of the Hulk and it was refreshing to see you starting to explore this aspect of Bruce’s character.
I eagerly look forward to Part 2!
Regards,
Matt
Thought it was outstanding.
One of the things that made Peter’s original Hulk run so remarkable was his ability and willingness to twist his entire status quo 90 degrees into an unexpected new direction every year or so. “Tempest Fugit” does it again: same character, new insights, new scenario, fresh entertainment.
And I don’t understand what was so confusing about the shark. I thought it was very simple: [i]This big guy is one baaaaaad mutha.[/i]
Well, the buzz on the issue brought me back to my local comic store after an almost two year run.
So in a sense, that is good for the comic store owner and the comic industry and yet, bad for my bank account and wallet.
I hung out and talked with the owner for about 45 minutes: about wrestling, football, and most of all, comics. What I’ve been missing, what’s good, what’s decent. I picked up some of the Pfeifer (sp) run on Aquaman, Ultimates 2 #1, and of course, Hulk.
The Aquaman issues and storyline were rushed and absurd. Not quite sure why it was getting buzz.
Ultimates was solid.
Hulk…well, I wish I could just chalk up the lack of clarity, action, words, anything of substance to a first issue of an arc…but even with those excuses or explanations, the issue still falls short for me.
Which is a shame. I’m a big PAD fan, don’t get me wrong. I’ve got the Apropos novels, I’ve got the King Arthur novels, the NF novels, the Aquamans, the Young Justices.
And even though I wanted to like this book, it was read in 20 seconds and what little words their were came off too silly to even be PAD.
The art? I’m wasn’t a big fan. The two headed monster was just not very good.
I hate to be sounding so negative but that’s what was going through my mind at the time. Everything just seemed too drawn out yet rushed and everything about the thing was average.
I haven’t been much of a Hulk fan, I admit, but felt this would be something of a inspiration for me to get into the character. So far it hasn’t yet.
Yeah, I’ll check out the next issue, and yeah, I know I’m being negative. Chalk it up to higher expectations if you must, but honestly nothing in the book stood out for me.
God, I sound like a bitter critic who hates everything…what have I become?
It felt like an early Image comic to me. Mostly many pages with mostly fight scenes and very little dialogue, and two pages of some flashback backstory. I breezed through it in just minutes. I didn’t understand what Hulk was doing underwater, what that weird octopus monster was, or in general, what was going on. The revelation of the breathing liquid his body produces was a surprise, though I’m not sure why nobody ever knew about it before. The most interesting part storywise was the last page.
The art was adequate, but not much else. With its simplified faces, heavy brushstrokes and overuse of hatching and other linework, it seemed like a cross of John Romita Jr. and Mike Deodato, neither of whose artwork I think is very good. I don’t understand, for example, why the Hulk’s right arm is in shadow on the last page, but his left arm isn’t. Just what light source is producing this effect? It’s unfortunate that the last adquate Hulk artist Peter worked was Adam Kubert, and the last really great one was Gary Frank (whose cover of What If…?, btw, was just beautiful).
Hopefully it’ll get better.
Shortdawg: But roughly five years ago, David was abruptly ousted as Hulk writer by management weasels at Marvel Comics…
Luigi Novi: I thought Peter quit?
Oh, gods…I just remembered I have an Kubert drawn issue of the Hulk that is perhaps the worst artistically rendered book I have ever seen. I was horrified when I read it and I’m still in shock. Maybe I’ll go find the issue number soon.
It’s just so so bad.
Kubert’s work can be great–when altered with jazzy coloring.
Peter,
While I did enjoy the issue, it was certainly paced somewhat differently than a lot of your past work, even to some extent Captain Marvel. Thank heavens for the scenes set in the past. I guess what I’m getting at is this: did marvel editorial force you to decompress? It had the same sort of feeling I got from Geoff Johns Avengers run, which is the only work of his I’ve ever seen that I didn’t like.
That is, not a lot happened. Or at least what did happen could have easily happened in a lot less pages.
I think that’s what the previous poster meant about being spoiled by Fallen Angel or Supergirl.
I did still enjoy it and I’m staying on board, but it just felt a heck of a lot like what it was, a better than average 2005 Marvel book.
Matt
“While I did enjoy the issue, it was certainly paced somewhat differently than a lot of your past work, even to some extent Captain Marvel. Thank heavens for the scenes set in the past. I guess what I’m getting at is this: did marvel editorial force you to decompress?”
You know…I have to say, I find this whole “Company mandated” compressed/decompressed discussion that pervades the net to be complete and total crap. It’s not just you; it’s everywhere I see it, and I think it’s nonsense.
Anyone see “Amadeus?” The Emperor saying, “Too many notes,Mozart.” And a stunned Mozart explaining that he uses exactly as many notes as he needs to tell the story, no more, no less.
I wanted to open the story with the Hulk on his way to the island, rather than just something boring like washing up or landing on it, which we’ve seen a million times.
I wanted to give Lee Weeks some room to strut his stuff, especially in response to fans who were dismissive of him when he was announced as the penciler.
I wanted to give the book a different feel than the way I was writing Hulk before, because for every fan who said, “Hurrah, PAD is back on the book” there was another who said, “But we know what to expect from him, so there will be no sense of discovery or surprise.”
Since the island is the site of a five issue story arc, I wanted to give the Hulk at least one other venue in which to strut his stuff.
With all of that to consider, I wrote the first issue the way I did. Does everyone see how compression/decompression doesn’t even begin to enter into it? Not a lot of dialogue? What could I possibly have added to the first pages that would have improved upon it?
Once upon a time we had writers, and readers, who were mostly influenced by books. So you’d get a Superman story where one panel would read: “CAPTION: And so Superman takes off, flying for a solid week through space to take him to the far off planet of Urgh. But as he approaches, he gets a most unexpected surprise.” The art is Superman looking surprised as a squad of armed warriors is flying toward him. And Superman is thinking, “Great Krypton! An entire hoard of flying men, ready to attack me!”
That’s panel one. Panel two: “CAPTION: Moments later, after a brutal struggle, Superman realizes the futilit of fighting and allows himself to be brought before the planet’s queen, Lura Loo, who unbeknownst to Superman must find a husband before sunset!” The art has Superman being dragged before her, and the queen is thinking, “Who is this handsome stranger? Could he be the one I’ve been waiting for?!”
And there’s eight, nine of those panels on a page.
Anyone think that’s better?
Like it or not, the quick cutting of MTV and the reduced attention span of the Sesame Street generation has changed the way storytelling in all forms of entertainment–film, TV, movie–is being told. So this singling out of comics is unfair, ridiculous and tiresome.
PAD
PAD,
I apologize since I seem to have mistaken a deliberate artistic decision for something that it wasn’t. I should have known better, especially knowing what I know about your work.
That said, Marvel does have me jumping at shadows when it comes to this one. I don’t think I’m making this up. I don’t think that the idea that comics are being “written for the trade” is a myth in the least. I also think that it’s appearing FAR more in comics, and in Marvel comics in particular.
Look at the number of six issue storylines that Marvel is putting out now compared to five years ago. This is at a time where Marvel is releasing more trade paperbacks than ever, and is aiming at a bookstore audience more than ever. I just ran through the solicitations for March and I found around 23 titles which were in the midst of a 6 issue storyline, though some were limited series. There were also a number of 5 issue storylines and I think one seven issue storyline.
Some writers do it very well. Mr. Bendis generally is one. I think that the writers of New X-Men: Academy X deal with the format very well. JMS said recently that his FF run is going to be made up of a number of 6-issue storylines, and that he’s looking forward to the added detail that format offers him. Joss Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men has managed it fairly well also. Brian K Vaughan seems to be doing well with it too.
Some writers tend to fare somewhat less well. The example I used above was Geoff Johns, one of my favorite comic writers, and how drawn out his Red Zone storyline felt. I think Chuck Austen’s X-Men run would have been far less painful if arcs like the Draco didn’t run six issues.
I understand why you’d be upset. I apologize for insinuating something in your writing that obviously wasn’t there. Past forums such as this, I freely admit that I have no direct access to what’s going on in the minds of the writers and the editors, and all I can do is tell you my observations from reading comics most of my life, and what those obeservations tell me is that Marvel is encouraging its writers to write extended 6-issue arcs, often to the detriment of a story which might have been shorter five years ago. It’s not something that I’ve noticed in other forms of media to bother me as much as in comics.
I’m so used to seeing and feeling that sort of decompression, or I suppose, to be fair, what I think to be that sort of decompression that I saw it almost as a reflex in the first issue of your Hulk run, and again, I apologize for that. I’ll try to be a little more disconcerting in the future.
Matt
PS. For the record, your run on Supergirl might have my favorite pacing ever in a comic, but I’ve already taken enough of your time, so I won’t babble on about that.
Mssr. David,
I agree with that Qel-Droma cat — I was not very impressed. I have ever single issue of your last run (started at the “merge” and worked my way around to get it all).
I understand your point on “using all the notes you think you need” to tell the story. The flaw, then, may be in the story, not in your application of craft. I don’t know yet — I have one issue, which I found underwhelming (my fault for having hopes).
In my writing workshop, one time I was asked about a story point, and I proceeded to explain what I meant. The questioner waited for me to be done and asked, “why isn’t any of that in the piece?” I was stuck. If a piece of writing misses its intended target, that’s a mis-step in either concept or craft.
Which is not to take anything away from your considerable talent, or my years of enjoying your work (I did stick with Fallen Angel as you suggested, and I did like it better).
Your mileage, as always, may vary. Best.
-H
As unintentionally funny as it might be, I meant to say discerning and not disconcerting at the end there. My fingers move faster than my brain. Sorry.
Collin. Not Colin. Not Colinl. Just a reminder! 🙂
I had a feeling if enough people echoed those sentiments that it would raise your ire.
The thing is though, it’s not just a quick cutting and attention span thing, though I must admit, it’s tempting to chalk it up to.
It’s actually a “what we got wasn’t very good” thing. Yes, it’s the beginning of an arc. Yes, it was slow on purpose. Yes, I personally GOT what you were doing…I just didn’t like it.
I wasn’t into the art so I wanted the writing to distract me. It didn’t. It just wasn’t sparse dialogue…but what was there wasn’t good. Talking about his lungs was silly and you know it.
I can also see why the shark thing was confusing. I saw what was going on but I did have to re-read it after the panel where Hulk is walking and there is seemingly no shark in his hand and the next he is holding up the bottom half and it’s not clear that it’s actually ripped apart. That’s more an artistic problem.
It just went too fast and we walked away with nothing. I have no clue what Monster Isle is, and maybe that’s my fault…but I’m a new reader so help me out.
Honestly, for me, I just didn’t like the story of Hulk walking in the water, passing out, and continued next time. Perhaps I was looking for a side plotline that didn’t come, who knows.
You ask “What’ja think” and we tell you. You know yourself the issue wasn’t anything great and it was average as can be. I know you don’t believe all the gushing. Maybe I, and Matt D is the minority here but we had something to say because you asked.
In the grand scheme of the arc, I doubt it will matter, that’s because you are a solid writer, in fact my favorite at this point in my life. But as of right now, this first issue wasn’t interesting and the art couldn’t carry it.
Since my sabbatical from comics I’ve continued to read tons of novels. Sometimes 600 pages. I don’t watch TV much and so I do suffer from the quick cut syndrome. I just didn’t like the issue.
I will buy your next one, that’s for sure, and I still drop your name at every oppurtunity. (Apropos Book One was a gift I gave this Christmas).
Maybe it’s wrong of anyone to assume that this arc is written for the upcoming trade…it honestly didn’t cross my mind since I don’t read them. But can you really blame anyone for that jaded way of thinking?
1Just figured I’d say that I really enjoyed this issue. I’ve never been into Hulk but I liked the issue and I’ll be on for reading it as long as you are on. I’ll also give some props to Matt Adler for reccomending the book.
“It’s actually a “what we got wasn’t very good” thing. Yes, it’s the beginning of an arc. Yes, it was slow on purpose. Yes, I personally GOT what you were doing…I just didn’t like it.”
And I’ve got no problem with that. I’ve been doing this for twenty years, and in all that time, never–NEVER–have I produced a work that absolutely, positively everyone who read it said they liked.
To me, the number of people who said they loved it is staggeringly gratifying. I was fully prepared, since the comic was SO different from everything else I’ve done, to have the vast majority of people echo your sentiments. I felt as if fans would essentially be saying, “This first issue better measure up to the best of the best of twelve years worth of stories or I’m outta here.” And what could I write that could possibly meet those sorts of expectations?
I just wanted to make it clear that, in broad strokes, I think comics are getting something of an unfair rap considering the stylistic sea change we see in so many forms of storytelling these days.
PAD
Yes, like any good biopic, I did compress history a bit just to simplify things for the uninformed and make things flow better dramatically. Thus ignoring Bill Mantlo’s own psychological complexities and the various other writers between PAD and Jones. Still, while the facts might be slightly fudged, I think “the truth” remains undisputed.
What is the problem with the Bl**dy Shark? Hulk ripped it in half-end of story, move on.
I was really impressed with the issue purely because it is the most panels Hulk has appeared on in his own book for YEARS!!!
MORE PLEASE!
People mentioning Bill Mantlo above, what happened to him anyway. The last issue I can find with his name on it was Marvel Fanfare#47 (I think that was the number). I asked the question several years ago in Comics international but nobody could answer it.
The artist I would like to draw Hulk-given the choice would be Ivan Reis who drew a mean Hulk in the Order.
Ian
People mentioning Bill Mantlo above, what happened to him anyway. The last issue I can find with his name on it was Marvel Fanfare#47 (I think that was the number). I asked the question several years ago in Comics international but nobody could answer it.
As I understand it from Tony Isabella’s blogs, columns and posts to racmu, (those interested can search out the particulars on their own) Mr. Mantlo was the victim of an (automobile?) accident a few years ago- the effects of which have robbed him of much of his capacity for writing, communicating or much in the way of memory, poor soul. I miss his writing very much myself. His run on “Micronauts” is one of my great childhood memories and was the first book I ever collected from start to finish.
I’ve just read on a Hulk web site that you are on record as saying you are on Hulk at least ’til the end of the year with an Abomination mini series as well? Is this true?
http://www.incrediblehulk.com/hulkcomicnews.html
Check it out!
Ian
Now that you mention about Bill Mantlos’ accident, I think I vaguely remember it having been written on a Bull pen bulletins page at some point. A poor shame, I say a Hulk legends one shot should be printed to mark this oft forgotten Hulk writer. Petitions to The big Q at Marvel now!
Ian
Well, I’ve gotta agree that it certainly was different than I expected (not that I mean that in a bad way…) I, for one, had no problem with the long monologue about Hulk’s lungs. It made perfect sense to me that as Hulk changed back into Banner that a type of stream-of-conscousness rambling would occur, especially considering that both of them were exhausted. I also understood the shark bit immediately, so people’s confusion there is a bit puzzling to me.
All of that said, I’m actually gonna reserve judgement until I read a bit more. It’s kinda like reading the first ten pages of a novel and thinking you know whether it’s going to be the best thing ever; it just can’t be done. This is the first chapter, let’s see where it goes.
Oh, and on a personal level, I find it incredibly poetic that Peter’s Hulk returns to my life just around the time where some personal circumstances are bringing my own Hulk out in me. Let’s hope that I can deal with it as well as Bruce does…
Mr. Peter David,
HULK #77 was a fascinating read. It has an odd, intense atmosphere of mystery, and dread, which I haven’t seen in your entire previous 12-year body of work on THE INCREDIBLE HULK. Thank you for giving the Hulk a more substantial role in HIS OWN TITLE, as opposed to having him walk with a bunch of white poodles across one panel. Or appearing outside of a bank wearing a cowboy hat.
I’m a little confused about all the obsession that’s been directed at the ripped-apart SHARK, of all things. I’ve gradually noticed a strange, recurring symptom in fans over the years: they home in and fixate on one particular aspect of a comic/movie, and refuse to let it go over an extended period of time, in the process negating everything else – including the story as a whole. In Sam Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN, it was the organic webshooters. In Ang Lee’s HULK, it was the Hulk dogs.
I’m not jumping to conclusions until I’ve actually SEEN the conclusion of TEMPEST FUGIT. (Maybe I should re-read William Shakespeare’s text for clues to the possible outcome…?) In the meantime, BRAVO!
Mr. David,
Something else I forgot to mention. I especially liked the scene where the Hulk reverts back to Banner for the first time in the issue. The Hulk begins to talk like Banner, and then Banner for thr first few moments after his transformation speaks like the Hulk. A good example of how the two personalities “bleed” into one another sometimes without either being aware of it.
I liked it, for the most part. Only part that I didn’t quite like (apart from the Hulk outside of Banner at the end, but I assume this will be explained) is the retcon of Hulk not being able to breathe underwater.
I am not a big fan of giving Hulk more powers than he already has, which is quite a lot. I always liked the fact that Hulk *could* be killed by drowning or being placed in outerspace long enough. I liked the fact that for all his strength, speed, and regeneration, he was still after all limited by a humanoid body just like the rest of us. He can’t fly, he has to breathe, he has to eat.
Adding another power like that only makes it harder for someone like me to connect with the human-like aspect of Hulk as well as putting him one step closer to Invinciboy, Superman. You retconned the “Skin can’t be penetrated by Adamantium” which I accepted, for it was a change that came with a balance. Breathing underwater like Namor though? Harder for me to accept.
Peter David: I wanted to give Lee Weeks some room to strut his stuff, especially in response to fans who were dismissive of him when he was announced as the penciler.
Luigi Novi: Well if they were dismissive of him because they don
Glad to see you back on the Hulk!
I was a big fan of your work in the 90s. Just hearing that you were going to come back and work on the book made me re-read all the Hulk issues I have in my collection (around 100 or so).
The Hulk can breathe under water? I’m not sure why that would be. I remember in The End that the Hulk survived a nuclear holocaust so I guess his body could adapt to anything. At first I thought it was strange, then I thought it was funny, then I called all of my fellow Hulk fan friends and bragged at the new information that I just picked up.
Man, it’s been AGES since I’ve picked up the Hulk (I stopped reading it when the Hulk was still involved with the Pantheon and the Troyjan war was about to start). I’m wondering if he still says “Hulk Smash.”
Don’t make mine marvel… make mine David! That doesn’t sound right… make mine a rum and coke
-CCR
Jomero: Only part that I didn’t quite like (apart from the Hulk outside of Banner at the end, but I assume this will be explained) is the retcon of Hulk not being able to breathe underwater.
Luigi Novi: The premise is that he was able to breathe under water, but that he didn
I’m a little confused about all the obsession that’s been directed at the ripped-apart SHARK, of all things. I’ve gradually noticed a strange, recurring symptom in fans over the years: they home in and fixate on one particular aspect of a comic/movie, and refuse to let it go over an extended period of time, in the process negating everything else – including the story as a whole. In Sam Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN, it was the organic webshooters. In Ang Lee’s HULK, it was the Hulk dogs.
You are comparing apples to oranges. I did not obsess that PAD had Hulk rip a shark in half. I commented that I had to flip the pages back and forth 5 times before I *understood* that was happening. I am not commenting on the content of the story, but on the delivery and clarity of what was trying to be communicated. I think that may be what others were commenting on as well. And when it is the opening act of a book, it does have an impact. First impressions do count even in writing.
In regards to the “breathing under water” issue, I am curious. I need to reread the comic book again. I was not sure, but my first impression was that the Hulk adapted to the pressure of the water, and was not truly breathing. In essence, he was not converting water into oxygen, but his body had adapted so that he would not suffer the bends. I could be wrong, but that was what PAD was saying. I also was not sure that this has always been the case. I got the impression that this may have been a new “mutation” of his powers. If true, then it does not change what has happened in the past. (Of course, if my idea was right, the Hulk was holding his breath for a very long time!)
Jim in Iowa
Finally got a chance to read it (no new comics for three weeks because of vacation).
All in all not bad. The ad art turned me off to the title. But when I had a chance to see it in the book, I felt it fit and enjoyed it.
While I didn’t care for the Hulk breathing underwater aspect, it’s a minor thing.
I will definitely be checking out the next issue.
KIP
[quote]PAD: “Like it or not, the quick cutting of MTV and the reduced attention span of the Sesame Street generation has changed the way storytelling in all forms of entertainment–film, TV, movie–is being told. So this singling out of comics is unfair, ridiculous and tiresome.”[/quote]
While I see your point (in the Superman example) on the dialogue matching the captions matching the pictures, I don’t understand how “decompressed storytelling” is supposed to appeal to the MTV generation. Wouldn’t it make more sense to appeal to the MTV folks with the “uncompressed storytelling” of the Superman example?
If you want to appeal to people with short attention spans, how does taking your time with a given scene succeed in doing that?
Or am I misunderstanding the point?
You’re right that all forms of entertainment are changing, but it seems like most formats are speeding up. Comics on the other hand are slowing down.
Just skimmed throught the comments. The shark thing confused people? It seemed like a bit of clever misdirection on the first page (where it looks like the shark is swimming) but becomes very clear once the shark begins to drop. I thought it was cleverly done and gorgeously rendered, and ultimately clear. The best scene in the issue, IMO.
Rob S.
I really liked the issue!
First Hulk comic I’ve liked in years. Loved the bit with the shark. And the ending was pretty dámņ good as a cliffhanger for the next issue.
As a spokesmen for SAAPIM (Sharks Against Aggressive Portrayal in Media), I don’t think I have to tell you, Mr. David, how insulted and outraged we are at your newest comic.
Why, if I were half the shark as the one portrayed in your comic…
What? What? Why is everyone laughing?