9:10 Got back late from bowling but am going to take another whack at a blog. This has been perceived as Darth Vader vs. Luke. Let’s remember that the first toe-to-toe in that battle went to Vader.
9:13 Nice that Cheney says that Osama is such a priority, considering Bush said that Osama is no longer a priority.
9:17 Edwards should really be emphasing that the “global test” is a philosophy dating back thousands of years, rather than acting defensively against Cheney’s charges of Kerry being weak on defense.
9:21 The hope was that Cheney would come across as cranky, irritable and old. Not happening so far. Thus far it’s still terrorism 24/7. But now Cheney is trying to back off and avoid repeating the more incendiary things he’s said, such as that we’re more likely to be attacked if Kerry’s in charge. Let’s see if Edwards nails him on that.
9:23 Edwards is still spending too much time defending Kerry rather than attacking Cheney. Ah, okay, now he’s talking about Cheney cutting weapons systems. Still, I wish that Edwards would make a mention comparing Cheney’s draft dodging versus Kerry’s service if we’re going to talk about track records.
9:28 Edwards is answering the question of how we’re going to get other countries to join in the reconstruction.
9:33 Thus far Edwards and Cheney are spending most of their time calling each other liars, which gets kind of tiresome. They’re both flinging around facts and figures that, I strongly suspect, are both wrong. It’d be nice if one of them could present an absolute slam dunk lie that would leave the other sputtering.
9:38 Cheney’s continuing to present himself carefully and well. Clearly he’s trying to avoid the gaffes, the impatience and profanity that’s gotten him press before.
9:39 Edwards should be doing this more and more: Hit on Cheney’s background with Halliburton.
9:41 This is in Edwards wheelhouse. The attorney slamming at an overinflated and dubious corporation.
9:43 It’ll be interesting to see if Cheney defends the Saudis.
9:45 Let’s see if Edwards has a comeback for the “Senator Gone” thing.
9:46 No, not really. He spent his time attacking Cheney’s voting record. On the one hand it was smart to be aggressive; on the other hand, it leaves Cheney’s charges unanswered.
9:49 Nice way that Edwards very offhandedly pointed out that Cheney hadn’t really answered the question about Cleveland.
9:50 Unfortunately Edwards isn’t really answering the question vis a vis Cleveland. Impressively, he actaully did a worse job answering it than Cheney.
9:57 No, freedom for everyone is not unrelated to the subject of gay marriage. Freedom means freedom.
9:58 This is the most bloodless political debate I’ve ever seen. It’s almost as if everyone’s TOO calm. The talk comes across as sharp, but there’s no passion.
10:00 Edwards is trying to walk an extremely fine line. I’m willing to bet that both Kerry and Edwards do believe in a right to gay marriage, but if they come out and say that, they risk offending…what? Seventy percent of the people? Still, I wish they had the guts to come out and say, Yeah, we support it, that’s one of the reasons we’re different from the GOP, we really believe government shouldn’t be telling people what they can’t do if they’re not hurting anybody.
10:02 This one is right in Edward’s wheelhouse as he answers the question about medical liability suits. His idea about holding lawyers responsible for frivilous lawsuits is extremely good. Definitely an Edwards win on this one.
10:08 Cheney turned the charge about increasing medicare back on Edwards with the comment about the 1997 law causing it (presuming that’s accurate…and since Edwards didn’t really have a comeback for it, I’m going to have to assume it was.)
10:11 Watching Cheney thus far compared to watching Bush during his debate should pretty much verify, once and for all, who is actually running the country.
10:15 I think it’d be cool if Edwards said, “I don’t have a long resume like Cheney’s. On the other hand, at least my resume doesn’t have me shaking hands with Saddam.”
10:22 Anyone notice that Edwards looks like he’s holding the buzzer to answer a “Jeopardy!” question?
10:18 I still have trouble not giggling considering George Bush as “commander in chief.” I keep thinking of him leaping into action on 9/11 in the Florida classroom. Watching Cheney, I can again see why Bush was able to sit around while Cheney leaped into action.
10:21 “The best defense is a good offensive.” Wow! I’ve never heard that before! What an original thought!
10:25 Cheney is making no effort to defend Bush’s flipflops. Let’s see if he does or if he just keeps attacking Kerry.
10:27 Cheney pretty much blew that question.
10:29 I suspect Texas democrats would have something to say about Bush allegedly having “reached across the aisle” in Texas to Democrats. I susp
10:30 Yes, exactly. Cheney saying he has no idea why America is so divided is just being disingenuous. Bush has consisted appealed to the most extreme factions of this country; how can he possibly wonder why such catering to right wing extremism and neocon philosophies could possibly splinter him from the rest of the electorate?
10:35 Good closing speech by Edwards.
10:36 Cheney plays the fear card. Naturally. Edwards speaks of hope; Cheney speaks of fear.
This one is much tougher to call. Edwards more often than not held his own, but Cheney simply came across as the more experienced statesman, even though I wouldn’t trust him further than I can throw him. Those who were hoping to see youthful exuberance triumph cleanly over a cranky elder were disappointed. As before, “winner” vs. “Loser” is still a fool’s game to call, but I think Cheney is going to benefit far more from this go-around than Edwards.
PAD
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wow… in his first few statements, cheney has denied trying to link saddam and al queda, he has misrepresented the global test, edwards and kerry’s voting record.
i don’t think ive ever seen somebody veer so far away from the truth so fast and stay on such a determined course away from it.
I wonder if they can see themselves on a TV monitor. I could have sworn I just saw Cheney look slightly off his focus and then straighten up, giving an appearance of being bigger than Edwards. It was weird and may be my imagination, but I could have sworn….
“i don’t think ive ever seen somebody veer so far away from the truth so fast and stay on such a determined course away from it.”
Yeah, not since Edwards was in the Vice Presidential debate!
Oh, wait…
At least Cheney isn’t doing as flat-out poorly as his employee–er, I mean his boss W. did.
And let’s keep a running tally of how often Cheney says, “Wrong place, wrong war, wrong time.” I counted four times for Bush, and my mom insisted it was five. So far, Cheney has uttered that phrase twice.
Cheney talking about “winning friends and allies”? Do I smell a best seller if these guys need work in January….. “How to Win Friends and Influence Allies”? Certainly would sit next to many of the other dollar books.
Ah, but Peter, if Edwards attacks about draft dodging, it opens up a counterattack that Kerry stating in the 90s that past military service during Vietnam shouldn’t be relevant at a time Clinton was being attacked.
Now the attack about the administration trying to cut military pay goes to the heart of administration’s base and strength.
— Ken from Chicago
Ooh, now Edwards interrupted Cheney. A violation on Edwards’ part, though I can’t say I blame him, given Cheney’s blatant Straw Man argument of putting words into Edwards’ mouth regarding him “demeaning” our Iraqi allies.
Shìŧ, now Cheney’s half of the split screen just went black now before they cut back to all three of them.
Peter, I’m sure a visit to Spinsanity and Factcheck could start to untangle some of the “facts” and figures tossed around.
— Ken from Chicago
“…. well, that’s all ya got.” By far, the best line in the debate thus far…. unfortunately, made by the moderator.
“Hit on Cheney’s background with Halliburton. “
Hmm..this is going to be good..
Only company in the US that can do the job HAlliburton is doing in Iraq. The other companies that do it are foriegn. So is Edwards saying we should outsource american jobs and money?
The 9:33 comment? Yup. I decided I was going to watch this debate with my eyes closed (not sleeping, just closed) to see if I could just judge on what they said. Which was often, “Answer the question, please! The question she asked!”
It seems to me that when Edwards gets louder, Cheney gets softer. He really is controlling himself, except for those comments at the beginning of his rebuttals.
Oooh…more personal attacks…
I keep remembering what you noted about Kerry and Bush avoiding the cameras, and I have to say, it’s much worse tonight. Very distracting.
Also, someone should have told Cheney that if he keeps steepling his hands and rubbing them menacingly, he looks like some combination of Mr. Burns an Dr. Evil.
So far, from a gut reaction, it’s a draw. Both competent speakers, head to head.
Cheney sounds much more presidential (or more executive, actually) than GWB.
Edwards is doing a great job making it clear that Saddam is not Osama, e.g. Iraq is NOT 9/11.
Edwards looks juvenile and sounds as if he’s grasping at any stick to keep from falling.
Cheney is absolutely pummeling the kid.
Record speaks for itself, and it’s not very distinguished. Pow. Cheney with another pummel.
“Cheney is absolutely pummeling the kid.”
Hmm..I’m a big Cheney fan, and I wouldn’t say that.
I do think Edwards lawyer attitude may turn off swing voters though.
9:33 Thus far Edwards and Cheney are spending most of their time calling each other liars, which gets kind of tiresome.
It’s reminding me of the Monty Python routine where you Michael Palin goes to John Cleese for an argument.
— Schwa —
NASTY! A personal attack on Edwards’ Senate attendance that Cheney was obviously waiting to voice. He even made it sound like he was Edwards’ supervisor dressing him down.
Slick, but nasty. Republicans will love it, Democrats will cry foul.
What debate are you watching?
Cheney looks creepy and menacing… his big head is looking right into the camera, and he’s speaking like he’s at a lecture… no message, and total avoidance of the questions.
Edwards is speaking to the audiance and making sense.
I’m a Kerry/Edwards supporter, but that “first time I’ve met you” line was brilliantly played.
Haliburton Haliburton Haliburton. Check out factcheck.org today. They have a great article about how the Dems lie about it.
You figure with Cheney’s history of heart trouble and having a stent installed, he’s learned to control his emotional state and reactions to be subdued.
He seems squeeze his hands together to almost squeeze out excessive emotional replies and when in control he lets go of his hands.
— Ken from Chicago
Cheney’s comment about “not even there to vote on it” seems underhanded. Maybe I’m naive, but aren’t Kerry and Edwards on the campaign trail?
Answer the question…answer the question…answer the question…just gotta keep saying it.
The “Senator Gone” was a good comment. However, it makes it seem like Cheney was always there…anyone got a check on that?
Same sex marriage question…oooh…
STOP ANSWERING THE LAST QUESTION! MOVE ON!
I need a bottle opener.
Is it a good sign in a debate to try answering the current question by answering the previous?
If so, Edwards is doing jussssst fine.
From another blog:
Ðìçk Cheney Attended Only One Public Hearing of the House Intelligence Committee. But as a member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence from 1985 to his nomination as Secretary of Defense in early 1989, then-Representative Ðìçk Cheney (R-Wyo.) attended only one public committee hearing – a 1986 meeting on potential U.S. military involvement in Angola. [Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, House of Representatives, Government Printing Office Hearing Reports; Washington Post, 2/7/85; Los Angeles Times, 3/11/89]
“Maybe I’m naive, but aren’t Kerry and Edwards on the campaign trail? “
Hmm..maybe that’s why Bob Dole did the right thing and resigned from the senate when he ran…
It’s a new concept…*SHOCKER*!
Well so far it’s even steven. I agree both probably have skewed facts so that’s not much to go on. Both say “that’s just incorrect” too much. Soon we can reduce this to them pointing at each other and yelling “liar liar pants on fire”. Both are better speakers than either Kerry or Bush. More fluent.
Both are nastier than either Kerry or Bush especially Cheney. He constantly comes close to actually insulting Edwards. Not sure that’s actually a smart thing. The camera work is stupid and inconsistent. Show both. All the time. period.
Cheney is pretty composed considering it’s him, obviously far smarter than Bush (but then he is one of the hands going into the puppet) and has more (be it dubious) facts. But he sure as hëll blinks a LOT when Edwards talks. Not smart. It looks like everything he hears takes him by surprise. And I think he’s getting more and more smirky with an aura of contempt. Might look negative too. Cheney also sounds extremely dull, like a tax form with a voice.
Edwards has the whole Kennedy thing going for him and he speaks in a way that’s more appealing than the ‘tax form’ speak. Maybe to some it’s too much ‘slick lawyer’. Again, how you look at it. But he should get on the ball more. Some will see “young know nothing vs seasoned politician”. Others “young bright politician vs snarly dusty old liar”. Eye of the beholder, though the truth is probably in the middle here.
Content wise I see no real surprises. None is really getting the better of the other here so far.
Y’know… I like this moderator.
Even though that was tantamount to a mild flirtation she was having with Cheney.
John
“Thank you very much for the kind words about my family.”
That and the “first time I’ve met you” were notable if watching the debate, maybe not in a review.
I suspect Edwards citing Bush administration trying to cut military pay has longer replay value.
— Ken from Chicago
I, too, like the moderator a lot. She and Cheney are kinda cute in their way…
It’s nice to hear about lawsuit reform now. They seem to be whacking each other less, talking about the issues more.
Hmm, doesn’t Edwards reportedly have a weakness in one of his trials using questionable medical science?
Peter, gay marriage is a dividing issue with Democrats, just as stem cell research divides Republicans.
— Ken from Chicago
P.S. If politicians REALLY wanted to limit frivolous medical lawsuits, or frivolous lawsuits in general, they could simply cap the LAWYER fees.
Both are geniuses in attacking each other and each other’s president/running mate. But neither is any good at answering those attacks.
And did Cheney memorize every single vote Kerry made in the last 30 years? Edwards keeps hitting the Halliburton button, hehe. And Cheney keeps ignoring it. Pffff answer something, guys….please.
Wait a second, is Edwards MIMICKING Cheney’s clasping his hands and similar hand gestures?
Other than that, I agree, they are more substantive and debating the issues than attacking each other.
— Ken from Chicago
Both are better speakers and have their facts but I assume a lot of each other’s attacks are true since it’s either not answered or simply “that’s not true” on both sides.
Edwards is 50 years old and still looks like a kid or Pikachu or a cute bunny rabbit (and not the evil ones that cause people to sing and dance themselves to death) whenever he threatens to attack Al Quaida, in the Dem convention and during the debate tonight.
— Ken from Chicago
OH MY GOD! After 1 and 3/4 of debates a question from the Moderator about the democratic candidate’s history. Dude, she better start watching her back.
Moderator is doing well, but sounds like she has marbles in her mouth much of the time.
Camera work SUCKS. At the beginning of the debate, the split screen had Edwards on the left and Cheney on the right, opposite of where they were sitting next to each other. Very awkward.
Good points to Cheney for pointing out Edwards lack of participation in the Senate. That’s something we here in NC have found troubling for 6 years. That’s why he had no chance of being reelected.
It is interesting, this lack of response (or in many cases, a response that comes a question later) to the attacks being made. I’m not sure how that’s gonna play–as a denial, as an affirmation, or that it’s simply not important to the person.
I don’t think looking at it as not important works very well, thought.
Oh no! not the “down and out family history”.
As THE DAILY SHOW mentioned, Illinois’ senator candidate, Barack Obama, has everyone beat by being the son of an African goat herder.
— Ken from Chicago
Peter, why did you think it was CHENEY who kept being secured away in an undisclosed location during times of crisis?
— Ken from Chicago
Interesting mannerisms by Edwards throughout the debate. Of particular note are his hand gesturing. Very, very reminiscent of Clinton’s….. especially when he does that two-handed kinda-thumbs-up-thingy when making a pint.
Also, when Edwards is writing notes with the squaring and other non-writing notations, he looks exactly like any artist at a comic con doing sketches. Weird association, I know, but I need to be engaged by something going on here.
“‘The best defense is a good offensive’ you know who said that? Mel, the cook on ‘Alice.'” – ed gruberman, tae kwon leep/boot to the head, the frantics
Just how many times can Edwards (and Kerry in the last debate) say “We have a plan” and then not give any details of the plan?
This has been fairly boring, but not a disaster for either.
But ultimately it’s a case of….
“I know Aaron Sorkin, and candidates, you’re no Aaron Sorkin…”
(Just how many times can Edwards (and Kerry in the last debate) say “We have a plan” and then not give any details of the plan?)
Well if they said the plan then everyone would know it! Any good supervillin (and before you think that I’m a republican because of this comment, I think deep down all politicians are wanna be supervillins.) only tells his plans when he thinks he has won and has the hero, or in this case the voter tied up. Therefore I expect to hear the plan on the night of the election, but before the polls close!
In the Cheney – Dr. Evil comparison. Cheney and bush do keep asking for increased military spending in terms of hundreds of Billlllionnnsss of dollars. Curious!
If Edwards wanted a knockout, why didn’t he ask about Saudis harboring terrorists and why the administration didn’t go after that country?
If Cheney, well, had a couple shots, especially the “first time I met you”. It parallels Kerry’s saying it was Osama not Saddam who attacked America, the inverse of Kerry’s “global test” line. Altho Cheney’s version might be denying linking Saddam to 9/11, but since that was early in the debate, it might be lost to te debate watchers, altho news coverage can pick up on it.
— Ken from Chicago
No “knock out” by either candidate, but neither of them was hurt. A definite draw.
And if anyone is watching NBC, they’re going to have a report on the “bloggers” covering the debate soon. Will this be one that is mentioned…?
Lockhart attacks Bush and Cheney for saying they would do the same thing all over again to attack Iraq but Matthews calls him on it asking why Kerry said the same thing in hindsight and Lockhart tries to dodge answering it as Kerry didn’t know, that it was ploy to get inspectors back in, while dodging that Kerry said IN HINDSIGHT after WMDs were not found, after a thousand American troops dead and greater numbers of Iraqi allied troops dead.
Another example of the silliness of asking “spinners” to comment since you pretty much know what they gonna say.
— Ken from Chicago