If I’m the GOP and I’m seeing all the over-the-top plans for protestors, I’d be salivating. I’d be saying, “Bring it on.”
I am VERY concerned over this orgy of protesting. I’m not entirely sure of the purpose of it. It comes across to me as massively self-indulgent in that not only will it accomplish nothing in terms of affecting the opinions of Bush and Company, but it may well swing undecided voters to the Bush camp. Why? Because Americans lean toward underdogs, and as protestors do everything they can to make the lives of the GOP delegates as miserable as possible, all they’re gonna do is make the GOP come across as sympathetic. “Those poor Republicans, can’t even have their convention without demented naked Kerry supporters trying to hog the spotlight.”
It’s bad enough with these garbage Swiftboat commercials (although if Kerry expected anything else, he was being naive. The GOP successfulyly painted John McCain, a POW, as “loony,” and Max Cleland, who lost two legs and an arm to a war, as being soft on American security issues, so Kerry thought…what? They wouldn’t pull the same crap on him?) eroding Kerry’s numbers. But Kerry’s own supporters may be the GOP’s best friends.
PAD
• 
Ralph Nader is the GOPs best friend. The protesters come in a close second.
If the NYC protestors have a positive effect on the Bush Campaign, it will be because the American people will again see what kook, far-Left weirdos most of them are and this will serve to further distance Bush’s opponents from mainstream America. It won’t be because of sympathy on the part of the swing voters toward the Republicans thanks to the protestors. That idea is just plain wrong.
DW
I’m sorry to say it, but mass protests just don’t work any more. Media portrayals of protestors are always negative, and lip service (at best) is given to the actual reasons for the protests. The end result is that protesters come out looking like violent hooligans.
I can’t remember a recent protest anywhere that hasn’t resulted in more harm than good.
Turns out that we have a spy in the Pentagon and…well…no one seems to care all that much.
But naked protestors? All over the news
Seems to me that some people, rather than looking at the cause behind a demonstration or protest or whatever ya wanna call it, just label the people involved as loonies and want to send them home to their fish named Eric. We live in a world shaped by and for sound bytes and the news just doesn’t have the time to report on it. After all, they’ve got cars to sell and they HAVE to go to their weatherman in someone’s backyard with a giant tomato shaped like (insert minorly famous person HERE).
The Dems are worried about a backlash against the protesters, but how else to get their message across? They are angry with this administration and feel their complaints are not recognized. The people holding office do not care to listen. I hope they try to conduct themselves with dignity and the American people get angry with the mass arrests that are planned. (And before anyone says differently, people have already been arrested in conjunction with protests.)
I’m worried about this as well – sometimes I get the sense that a lot of the people protesting are more concerned with feeling good about themselves instead of taking an objective look at the situation in the country and trying to figure out what the best way to enact practical positive change would be (and I’m something of a kook far-left weirdo myself, although I would argue that neither political side can lay claim to having a monopoly on kooky weirdos…..)
Oft times in the last two decades, the protestors are detrimental to the cause that they say they are for because their own behavior is contrary to that cause or belief. Gay pride marches in which participants streak, dress in drag, and perform sex acts on each other in public is pretty contrary to their cause, which has been to be perceived as “just like everybody else” or “normal.” Pro-Life protestors who KILL doctors (as few of those as there are) are also acting contrary to what their beliefs/cause are supposed to be.
Most often, the reaction many working people have to protestors is this: Get a life. And most of the time, the people who say that are onto something.
DW
My big fear about the protestors are that some of the participants are not exactly there to protest. Some of the “protestors” may be there to cause a riot.
// Turns out that we have a spy in the Pentagon and…well…no one seems to care all that much.
But naked protestors? All over the news //
And while we’re on the subject of nude protesters can I just take a moment to say that taking your clothes off is the dumbest form of protest. I mean come on, generally thinking there are only two reactions to someone taking off thier clothes, laughter, (which is gennerally the reaction I get), or sexual interest, (i.e. “whoa, look at that, what a hottie”). No one takes anyone who’s naked seriously about political issues and if you happen to be a hottie you risk having the oppisit effect. Back at the begining of the War there was a group of women who decided to protest by going au natural in Central Park. Let’s think about that for a moment, who starts wars? Genneraly speaking it’s men, heterosexual men. What other pastime consumes a large part of the heterosexual man’s life? Getting women to take off thier clothes. Heterosexual men, over the course of their lives, spend a lot of time and effort, (and yes even money) trying to see naked women. So what do some women do to protest the actions of men?, they take off thier cloths. This is like protesting the actions of McDonalds by eating a big Mac. Speaking of which, every time some hot actress takes off her cloths for a PETA poster I go out and have a steak, I figure what the hëll, if I eat enough steaks maybe Sara Michelle Geller will be the next hot actress to pose for a PETA billboard. If PETA really wants people to stop eating meat they should try the oppisit approach, have the Playboy centerfolds put thier cloths back on. Sales of meat would drop over night.
It’s interesting that the Democrats were not able to reap any benefit from protests at THEIR convention. Part of this, of course, was that Boston was apparently much more restrictive to protests than New York plans to be. Part of it is that conservatives tend not to be as, well, insane, in their protests as the radical left.
It would be ironic if the Democrat Party’s successful supression of dissent at their convention ended up hurting them. Live and learn.
As for the Swift Boat controversy…Kerry could probably put a lot of this to rest if he would just release ALL of his military records. Or is that too much for voters to expect? As The Note jokes today:
“Someday, Karl Rove’s precocious grandchildren will say to him, “Grandpapa, what’s it like to run a presidential campaign against an opponent who has had his own background thoroughly researched well before the general election; who is broadly personable and possessed of great campaign skills; and who projects an image of constancy?”
To which Grandpapa Rove will reply, “I haven’t the slightest idea.”
You do know that they found a spy at the Pentagon right Bill? If the United States Goverment thought that Kerry deserved the medals that is good enough for me. Can we please talk about real issues…..PLEASE.
I think organizers on the Left have forgotten dámņ near every single lesson learned in the 60s about mass action.
First, you MUST police your people….and in some cases more tightly than what the police themselves will do. Yes, you say you’re non-violent…but the authorities don’t know that, and would be stupid to assume that.
Second, you must police not only yourselves, but other people you attract…who may not share the same aims as you do. In the WTO protests, the organizers were just as stupid as the police, because they KNEW some radical anarchists were with them, and they made no bones about the fact that they were out to do some damage.
Third, if something happens (and it probably will), you must be prepared to clamp down on it yourself. Mob pyschology makes it very easy to have a feedback loop that escalates action and violence until you have a real problem.
Fourth, remember that human psychology will magnify any volence that occurs. It’s not the media…it’s the human psyche that makes violent protest more memorable than a peaceful protest.
Anthony asks:
“You do know that they found a spy at the Pentagon right Bill? If the United States Goverment thought that Kerry deserved the medals that is good enough for me. Can we please talk about real issues…..PLEASE.”
Um…yeah, I did read that, along with all sorts of things that have very very little to do with this thread. So I didn’t feel like bringing them into the discussion, you know? You could suggest to Peter that he start a thread on it, though I believe he is also probably aware of the story.
As for laying off Kerry and sticking to the “real” issues…after all the Bush-bashing that has gone on involving issues both serious and petty, you would have to be very unrealistic to expect republicans not to press their advantage on any issue that seems to be as succesful at derailing the Kerry campaign as this one has so far been.
Republicans pressing the Swift Boat issue? Why not? You Kerry Supporters…or is it Bush Haters?… were all having a blast with the National Guard thing & the Fahrenheit 9-11 swill that the leftie media kept talking about night after night after night…right? Now it’s my turn and I’m having a blast and I bet a lot of the Swift Boat stuff is true, to boot. Kerry should talk about his accomplishments as a Senator. Waitaminnut? WHAT accomplishments? .
[i]t a lot of the Swift Boat stuff is true, to boot. Kerry should talk about his accomplishments as a Senator. Waitaminnut? WHAT accomplishments?[/i]
Helping uncover Iran-Contra. Is that a good start?
“If the United States Goverment thought that Kerry deserved the medals that is good enough for me.”
The US government doesn’t have very much to do with the handing out of medals. It has more to do with the chain of command within the military service one is serving. In Kerry’s case, nobody looked at what he did and said, “Son, you deserve a medal.” Kerry himself started the paperwork that got him most of his medals, because he was the CO of his swift boat. This is kind of thing is nothing new but it is something that the average American-who-has-not-served often doesn’t know.
“Can we please talk about real issues…..PLEASE.”
Since Kerry has been making his four-month Vietnam stint a central theme of his campaign, it IS an issue.
The real problem with Kerry is that he is a political dud. He can’t run on his senate record because it’s the record of a far-left leaning appeaser. His campaign is the most contrived thing I’ve seen in a long while: He is being portrayed as a hawk by the Left for having served in a war that the Left despised. He’s admitted to committing wartime atrocities in said war and yet his side likes to bring up Abu Ghraib to politically attack his opponent. The medals that he now attempts to hold up as an indication of how good a president he would be were the same ones he threw in disgust and protest after he left the Navy. The same folks who said Clinton’s draft dodging was immaterial in a presidential election are now trying to prove, unsuccessfully so far, that the current president may have been absent without leave while serving in the military during that same war. All the while the left is trying to silence those who served with Kerry rather than address and debate this issue.
DW
And I don’t recall the Bush Campaign threatening movie theaters who were running F9-11 like the Kerry Campaign has been threatening tv stations that run Swift Boat ads. I didn’t see anybody from the Bush Campaign suggesting to anyone that bookstores not stock Clarke’s book, or Woodward’s book or Franken’s book the way the Kerry Campaign has suggested that bookstores not carry “Unfit For Command.”
F9-11 made over 100 million dollars and has been called a “box office blockbuster.” Bush did nothing to stop it, never told anyone not to see it. Some private citizens put out a 250,000 dollar ad and look at the Democrat reaction. The real problem the Left has with the Swift Boat Vets ad is that it is effective… and it’s only effective because John Kerry made it so.
DW
I was in the military for the first Desert Storm, and grew up a military brat so I’ve got a little bit of first and second-hand knowledge (and if a little knowledge is dangerous, I’m one of the most dangerous men alive) on the subject.
Massive generalizations to follow:
Officers, especially during times of war, aren’t that great. They’re college kids given some basic instruction in military customs and courtesies and thrown into situations where they’ve no experience. With luck, they’re at least smart enough to listen to the older enlisted guys who’ve been around the block a few times and know what’s what. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kerry embelished or even lied about some of the ‘Nam stuff, just as I’m not surprised that many more did the exact same thing.
And during most of my time in, I was the one who had to write up my commendations and such, because they’re the type of thing that if you don’t take care of it yourself, it aint gonna get done.
Which is a long way around to saying the whole thing is a non-issue.
“I hope they try to conduct themselves with dignity and the American people get angry with the mass arrests that are planned.”
Yeah, well, I think the good ship Dignity has already more or less sailed and is vanishing into the horizon.
PAD
> It’s interesting that the Democrats were not able to reap any benefit from protests at THEIR convention. Part of this, of course, was that Boston was apparently much more restrictive to protests than New York plans to be. Part of it is that conservatives tend not to be as, well, insane, in their protests as the radical left.
I don’t get this. I live in Boston and the vast majority of the protesters in the city were anti-war folks who were protesting Kerry’s voting for giving Bush the authority to wage war on Iraq. I barely saw any right-wing protesters, which is why I think trying to peg a lot of the protesters who are going to descend upon New York as “Kerry Supporters” is inaccurate and unfair. So I guess I’ve got nothing to worry about, as accuracy and fairness seem to be the twin watchwords for the current presidential election. phew.
Also : someone made a comment about the “leftie media” – I know it’s been popular for years now to gripe about the media being left-wing and that may have been true at one point, but I honestly don’t see it. I more get the sense that because conservative pundits have been crowing about the “liberal media” for so long that the media’s been given a complex and tends to report things more on the right-wing side of the things to avoid being PERCEIVED as left-wing, because they’re touchy about not being seen as objective. Combine that with the fact that most media outlets are owned by huge multi-national corporations more interested in profit than providing a public service (someone complained about the media being “soundbite-addicted”, and I’d suggest this is the reason why) and I’m not sure the media’s as liberal as people would like to think. Then again, I suppose if I spent my entire time watching the news looking for a perceived “liberal bias” I’m sure I’d come up with SOMETHING (ie : “Ye gods, they did a story on Clinton and didn’t automatically portray him in a negative light! What BIAS!”) And, I mean, if you want to see news coverage that reaffirms conservative biases there’s Fox, there’s the New York Post, the Boston Herald (I’m waiting for the Herald to print a cover that’s nothing more than a head shot of John Kerry with the headline “DOUCHEBAG”) and there’s countless other publications with a strong conservative bias.
PAD,
With all due respect, I disagree on two points. First, the reason the protesters will help and not hurt Bush is because they are so absurd, not because they make Bush the poor little underdog. They can’t be taken seriously, so their point is lost. (Same thing happens with pro-life activists who drive around with pictures of aborted fetuses on their vehicles. I am strongly pro-life, but I know that such tactics do nothing to help and everything to hurt my cause.) That being said, I don’t want this kind of help. I would rather the demonstrators were not so over the top.
Second, your comments about the Swiftboat stuff ignores the strong dicrepancies (sp??) on both sides. This is not the usualy one or two people disagreeing. There are large numbers (especially on the Swift Boat Vets for Truth side) that make very similar claims. There are factual differences that the Kerry campaign keeps having to re-explain (such as where exactly Kerry was on Christmas Day, or where exactly Kerry was when he heard of Martin Luther King’s assasination (he said he was in Vietnam when the records show he was still on a naval ship)).
Bottom line, I stick with what I said in a post on another thread. I do not take the Swift Boat claims as being true on face value. But I do feel there has been more than enough changes in explanations by Kerry to wonder what exactly is the truth. Kerry would help this if he would truly release all of his records, something multiple news sources now admit he has not done.
One last thought: For all of you who said I could not have an informed opinion without seeing Farenheit 911, have you gone out and read the Swift Boat book for yourself? Not reveiws of it, not Kerry’s attempts to silence free speech by asking stations not to air the ad, but read the actual book itself? If not, then how dare you call it garbage? Are you not doing exactly what you criticized others for doing who don’t believe Bush was AWOL or that he lied to us about WMD’s? Just wondering. Nice to know there is no double standard here.
Jim in Iowa
Oh, by the way, Bush is by no means the first to attack the record of a veteran (assuming, for the sake of argument, that he was really behind all this). The Democrats for Clinton did that already. They questioned Bob Dole’s war injuries. It didn’t fly because anyone with two eyes could see he truly had been injured. Kerry’s injuries are neither visible nor as severe. That does not mean they are not valid. But if Kerry is unwilling to truly release his war records, forgive me if I am hesitatnt to just take his word for it. (What, the government record that he got a medal should be enough? Funny how that works only one way. Bush’s official record says he did serve honorably and fullfilled his time in the National Guard. Sorry, my mistake for not understanding the standard that should be used.)
Jim in Iowa
Kerry made his bed by “reporting for duty” at the DNC in a swift boat and bringing out his “band of brothers”. Personally, I’d rather the Vietnam stories went away. What someone did in their 20s has little relevance to me 35 years later.
What I want to know is how is Kerry going to “spread the burden” of Iraq, while at the same time pulling out US troops (sending a clear signal we aren’t serious)? I want to hear what Bush is planning about Social Security since we are overspending our budget every year by 15-20%.
These are issues that need to be talked about, not swift boat ads.
One last thought: For all of you who said I could not have an informed opinion without seeing Farenheit 911, have you gone out and read the Swift Boat book for yourself?”
No, but then again, I wasn’t talking about the book, I was talking about the commercials featuring spokesmen who, seven years ago, were seen singing Kerry’s praises, and now they’re saying that he deceived Americans. So either they were lying then or lying now. Me, I’m thinking it’s now. I have an informed opinion about the commercials because I’ve seen them, and I’ve seen coverage of them. Should you find me commenting on the book that I haven’t read, then you have a point. Until then…not so much.
PAD
“So either they were lying then or lying now.”
Whoa, Peter. Dude, I LOVE your work, but you’re too smart for such a stupid generalization.
Twelve years ago I was smokin’ pot and railing against the conservative machine. Today I’m a conservative, fundamentalist Christian. Was I lying twelve years ago when said I hated all capitalist, oppressive pigs? Hëll no, I meant every word. Passionately. I’ve since changed my mind and my perspective.
Do you hold the exact same positions you held seven years ago? Do you have the exact sme friends you had seven years ago? Things and people change. The SBVs can’t?
Later,
Chip
“No, but then again, I wasn’t talking about the book, I was talking about the commercials featuring spokesmen who, seven years ago, were seen singing Kerry’s praises, and now they’re saying that he deceived Americans.”
That may be true for some, but not all who now are part of the Swift Vets for Truth. The fact is, there are people coming forward almost daily about this issue. It appears that they are almost 2 to 1 against Kerry’s version. And they are individuals who have not spoken publically before about this. So not all were singing Kerry’s praises 7 years ago.
But that is a side issue. I suggest there is some truth to my comments in that you are looking at a 30 second summary of their proof, not reading the whole thing. That is like my reading the blurb on the inside book cover and making up my mind.
I have heard interviews with 2 of the key people behind the book. I find them very compelling. But I don’t really care because I have looked at the deeper issues. I am more than willing to assume Kerry was honorable in the war (his comments after the war are a different matter, but that is my opinion). I look at how he voted for the last 20 years. I look at what he says he wants to do for the next 4. The choice to me is clear. Bush, for the most part, has attempted what he promised. He has not always been successful, but no one ever is.
Bottom line, I am more than happy to focus on the “real issues” if Kerry would be more substantive in his comments about what he would do (such as how he would actually fund health insurance without further increasing the deficit). I would love to focus on how he can claim he believes life begins at conception, but still believe in abortion. Kerry is the one who made his time in Vietnam such a central point in his campaign, then suddenly says it is a dirty trick when Vets criticize his service. Nice of him to paint such a nice target on his back. Maybe I have underestimated Karl Rove. Maybe he had spies secretly suggesting to Kerry that he make his service in Vietnam a highlight of the convention. Who would have thought they would ever dig up the tapes of his anti-war activities? Guess Karl Rove really is a genius after all.
Jim in Iowa
“Do you hold the exact same positions you held seven years ago?”
More or less, yeah.
“Do you have the exact sme friends you had seven years ago?”
For the most part.
“Things and people change. The SBVs can’t?”
Not on this, no. Either they think Kerry acted heroically or they don’t. Nothing that Kerry has done in the past seven years should affect what they believe he did thirty five years ago.
On the other hand, I do appreciate your spirited defense of John Kerry against people who claim that he flip flopped on issues. By your own words, you’re saying that changing one’s mind on issues is a normal and positive thing. I certainly hope you’ll be voting for him then, since Bush ostensibly never changes his mind and you seem to think of that as a bit peculiar.
PAD
“Bush, for the most part, has attempted what he promised.”
Yes. That’s the most horrifying thing of all.
PAD
I’m going to fly against the breeze blowing here, and say that I am actually looking forward to the protests in New York.
For the longest time, ordinary people have been told to shut up and obey. September 11 cowed a lot of people into that obedience. Now, people are finding the courage to talk back. And all the Rushes and Hannity’s, and their supposedly respectable cousins at newspapers and network news departments, are sounding more and more hollow as they try to defend Bush and his pals.
People have gotten the idea that they don’t have to take this lying down. They’re willing to get up and speak. Maybe spit in the beer of a rich delegate who fires people and outsources jobs. Maybe make them realize the number of people they are hurting, by yelling at the delegates as they exit their limos.
The protesters aren’t the monolithic “dirty hippie youths” that caused trouble in Chicago, 1968. They’re people from all classes of society. I think the viewing public – if jerks like Stossel and Stephanopolis let the footage be seen at all – will see people just like them, expressing what they feel but are afraid to say.
I won’t say it will help Kerry. But it might have a longer lasting effect on people’s minds than this election.
And heck, I’d pay to see a bunch of these ignorant right-wing delegates stranded in a darkened, broke-down subway car, having to face the mental patients they insisted had to be thrown out onto the streets of New York.
PAD:
“No, but then again, I wasn’t talking about the book, I was talking about the commercials featuring spokesmen who, seven years ago, were seen singing Kerry’s praises, and now they’re saying that he deceived Americans.”
I hadn’t heard that the SBV’s were out singing Kerry’s praises before. I just remember seeing the footage of the author of the book debating Kerry about the Vietnam experiences back in the 70’s. So, it’s not like the issue just came up a month or so ago.
Seven years ago, Kerry was the junior senator from Mass., with very little chance of not being reelected, who (by senate records) didn’t show up to meetings a lot of the time. There really wasn’t a lot of reason for anyone, other than the people of Mass., to come out against him.
Kerry brought up Vietnam in his acceptance speech at the Democrat Convention. That’s all he spoke about. It’s no wonder that Vietnam is what his opponents are using against him.
I grew up a military brat in a military town (Fayetteville, NC). One of the things that struck me most about veterans of Vietnam (and other conflicts) is that they don’t come home bragging about being “heroes” or showing off their medals or ribbons. In fact, they rarely discussed what happened in war except with other veterans.
Going back to the topic at hand, I don’t think the protesters can do anything except help Bush. The more outlandish or destructive the protestors are, the more the few swing voters remaining may say “if these are the people that are for Kerry, I don’t want anything to do with them” and vote for Bush.
Thomas E. Reed said:
“For the longest time, ordinary people have been told to shut up and obey. September 11 cowed a lot of people into that obedience. Now, people are finding the courage to talk back. And all the Rushes and Hannity’s, and their supposedly respectable cousins at newspapers and network news departments, are sounding more and more hollow as they try to defend Bush and his pals.”
“People have gotten the idea that they don’t have to take this lying down. They’re willing to get up and speak. Maybe spit in the beer of a rich delegate who fires people and outsources jobs. Maybe make them realize the number of people they are hurting, by yelling at the delegates as they exit their limos.”
Sorry, but this is just the usual wishfull thinking by the Left… no one has been cowed into obedience at all. Not sure where you’re getting this — well, besides the usual Left talking points. And “Courage to talk back”? What a load of horse manure… Do you really believe this sort of stuff? Liberals have been never stopped speaking up against their opponents.
I like how you pepper your observations with “rich” and “limos”… um, you also know this describes the Democrats representing you, right? People love to condemn the Republicans as being so rich, but man, you ever take a look at the Dems in office these days? They’re just as rich too.
Protest coverage is unfortunately like mainstream comic convention coverage. A large percentage of the public attending are fairly normal-looking, well-adjusted people who have a common interest and are there to meet like-minded people and celebrate it… but TV camera and news outlets are slightly more interested in the six foot guy dressed as Princess Leia and who needs to tell you how The Force changed his life.
TV and press (unless you’re well-informed and NOT looking for a quick soundbite/image)often go for what they think will hold the attention of their viewer/reader for a brief period of time. I like to think I’ve never done that kind of reporting and if we’ve ever used a ‘fun’ image, balanced it with a more accurate image as well.
Press will look for the story behind the protest story – an angle, image or moment that they want to tell their readers/viewers sums up the occasion. That could be a successful, notable protest or a violence (if anarchists manage to infiltrate).
I have no doubt that FOX News will run a story saying how everyone has the right to protest but will run sound-bites with the less articulate or the more extreme sounding protestor, commenting how some acts may endanger the police (the latter is a fair point only if any protestor acts irresponsibly).
As for whether the protests harm or help either campaign… I think the lack of protest doesn’t help either. The trick, in whatever protest, rally or event you involve yourself in, is to show a balance of passion, knowledge and peaceful displays of concern. Then just hope there’s enough truth in whatever coverage you get.
John Mosby
After all, they’ve got cars to sell and they HAVE to go to their weatherman in someone’s backyard with a giant tomato shaped like (insert minorly famous person HERE).
My friend has tomato he claims looks like Louie Anderson. I have tried to explain to him that all tomatos look like Louie Anderson. They’re round.
>Kerry’s own supporters may be the GOP’s best friends.
Why think that those of us who’d march against Bush are Kerry supporters? Some of us see Kerry as Bush-lite, and don’t feel compelled to do him any favors. Certainly Kerry’s support of the Iraq war is as strong as Bush’s, and always has been.
Yeah, I hear Kerry’s supporters saying Kerry’s move to the “center” was a political necessity, but that we should ignore everything Kerry says now, and trust that he’ll move to the left in office. I’m not convinced. At least Bush can pull troops out of Iraq whenever he pleases, and the Republicans will provide political cover for him. President Kerry wouldn’t be able to do it without a storm of accusations from Republicans and the media, claming he’d “lost Iraq and the war on terrorism.” And frankly, I don’t think he’s strong enough to stand up to that. Easier to keep the troops over there, dying every day for a mistake.
I’d be protesting if I was in NYC, but I’m already pretty reconciled to four more years of Bush. Bush is already pulling ahead in the polls, and all that we have left before the election is the Republican convention (a four day Bush commercial) and the debates (which won’t help Kerry since he’s absolutely charisma-impared). I just reconcile myself with the fact that there’s enough Democrats in the Senate to block any really extreme Bush nominations to the Supreme Court (if they feel like bothering).
“Not on this, no. Either they think Kerry acted heroically or they don’t.”
“On the other hand, I do appreciate your spirited defense of John Kerry against people who claim that he flip flopped on issues. By your own words, you’re saying that changing one’s mind on issues is a normal and positive thing.”
Wow. You’re kidding, right? How can someone who writes such complex characters, thereby, IMO, demonstrating a pretty serious intellect, actually take such a silly position.
Let me check my book on things it’s okay to change your mind on. Maybe I missed the chapter on how SBVs can’t.
And I never said Ketty couldn’t change his mind. Hëll, I never even mentioned his name. I fully champion his right to cahnge his mind every day should he wish to do so, however that will affect my faith in his ability to lead this country. After all, the fact several of the SBVs have changed their minds sure hasn’t helped the validity of their position. By your logic, Peter, you should vote for Bush.
People expect consistancy in people they follow or take guidance from. It helps build faith in the decisions made because of the track record of those offering the guidance or leadership. The SBVs have left themselves open because of this. So has Kerry. Kerry flip-flops on dámņëd near a weekly basis. How are others supposed to have faith in a leadership that shifts positions all the time?
I have a pretty solid understanding (as do most people) of what decisions and directions Bush will make in the coming weeks and years. For me, since I like those positions, I feel comfortable voting for him. Obviously, since you don’t like Bush’s ideas and decisions, you won’t vote for him. Cool. I love this country.
Even you can’t offer a solid direction, with a consistancy of decisions and actions behind them, the Kerry will go as President. Even you don’t know what he’ll do.
If Kerry could offer any consistancy in positions we could all bank on, we’d actually have a debate, instead of this whole SBV mess. A similiar attack on Bush didn’t work because he gave the voters a consistant history that supported his plans for Presidency.
Hate to end this, but I need to corral the kids for church.
Later,
Chip
“”For the longest time, ordinary people have been told to shut up and obey. September 11 cowed a lot of people into that obedience….”
“People have gotten the idea that they don’t have to take this lying down. They’re willing to get up and speak. Maybe spit in the beer of a rich delegate who fires people and outsources jobs.”
Maybe by “cowed” you mean that they suddenly developed whatever it is that normal people have, that still, small voice inside that tells you that spitting in someone’s beer is both nonproductive and low class.
the odds that any delegate is an actual moustache twirling oil baron, lighting cigars with the 100 dollar bills he got by raiding the 401Ks of his workers are pretty slim. Most of them are fairly ordinary folks, albeit the kinds who see nothing wrong with wearing hats shaped like the chief export of their state.
And anyway, spitting in someone’s beer–illegal by the way, though laws mean nothing to those cloaked in the armor of self righteousness–only makes the spitter feel good. It doesn’t really have ANY effect on the victim, unless the spitter carries diseases and/or is a Komodo Dragon. So it accomplishes very little and runs the risk of making the protestor look very bad…pretty much PAD’s point…
1.Nude protests with words written on your body
may get you on the news but in no way helps forward your cause.The nude celebs for PETA(which Penn Gillete did a hysterical article for Razor magazine on)being an example.Wow ,a hot naked chick ,pass the steak sauce please 🙂
2.The time and energy being spent to monitor these protestors also bothers me..Not for nothing but a few weeks ago wasnt RoboRidge telling us that NYC was under threat of attack by TERRORISTS!!!Im not saying that the protestors may not be a threat but I dont know ,im thinking
the the same energy could be spent more practically finding people with expired student visas with possible terror ties,than harassing some hippie,vegan,antiwar person who MAY be a threat.
3.Kerry and the Swiftboats post Vietnam comments.
I honestly dont know what to believe here. All i know is the guy was in vietnam ,any comments he may afterwards he may have felt at the time ,and may have been ill advised but he was at least there and did his time.The medals are a non issue to me.
4.Maybe I read it wrong but i thought i saw somewhere that bush was being advised to not bring up Iraq as it may distract from his reelection bid.HUH???This is not an issue when he is portrayed as a “wartime President” and as being the reason we are “safe”.Sorry that should be a big issue on where do we go now?
5.Not to be a conspiracy theorist, which I am but the whole Israeli Spy scandal bothers me greatly.You know i was about to go on a rant but after thinking realized i was sounding like the shrouded ,cursed banned Dee and reconsidered.I dont know if I am more angry about the spying or that security was so lax that someone was able to potentially infiltrate in such an important government office(potentially).
Just my two cent opinion thats all:)
Deano says:
“5.Not to be a conspiracy theorist, which I am but the whole Israeli Spy scandal bothers me greatly.You know i was about to go on a rant but after thinking realized i was sounding like the shrouded ,cursed banned Dee and reconsidered.I dont know if I am more angry about the spying or that security was so lax that someone was able to potentially infiltrate in such an important government office(potentially).
Just my two cent opinion thats all:)”
I’m not that surprised. I WOULD be surprised to find out that we don’t have spies of our own in the intelligence agencies of friendly countries, so I can’t be too shocked if they do the same.
That said, they should throw the book at him if it’s true. Can’t make exceptions.
It is probably more difficult to catch spies from friendly countries since they would not behave in ways that would make their actions obvious. I mean, if an FBI agent starts talking about how great the North Korean economy is, well, you have some serious probably cause right there, but being known as pro-Israel or pro-Britain shouldn’t raise many flags.
Sorry if I’m helping things veer too far off topic here, but I thought some of you might be interested in this account (if you haven’t seen it already). It’s an account written by the only other surviving swift boat commander (aside from Kerry) on the night that seems to be drawing the most criticism.
Swift boat veteran for Kerry
Vietnam comrade rises to attack candidate’s foes
Sun Aug 22 2004
William B. Rood
U.S. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry’s medal-winning record of service on so-called swift boats in the Vietnam War has come under well-publicized attacks from a group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth . The group, which claims Kerry has been untruthful about his war record, has been linked to political associates of President George W. Bush.
Now William B. Rood, a Chicago Tribune editor and, with Kerry, one of three swift boat commanders in the action that earned Kerry a Silver Star, disputes the truthfulness of Kerry’s attackers. Here is his story.
THERE were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago — three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on Feb. 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn’t deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions. Many of us wanted to put it all behind us — the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry’s service — even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry’s critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they’re not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It’s gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
Even though Kerry’s own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.
I can’t pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honoured for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.
I was part of the operation that led to Kerry’s Silver Star. I have no first-hand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.
But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats — including Kerry’s PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz’s PCF-43 — that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area. The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.
Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats’ twin .50-calibre machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.
The first time we took fire — the usual rockets and automatic weapons — Kerry ordered a “turn 90” and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.
Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz’s boat at the first site.
It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn manoeuvre, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn’t fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz’s boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch — a thatched hut — maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat’s leading petty officer with whom I’ve checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ. With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O’Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry’s Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a “teenager” in a “loincloth.” I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the “lone” attacker at that site, as O’Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Our initial reports of the day’s action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
Known over radio circuits by the call sign “Latch,” then-captain and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a “shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy” and that it “may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers.”
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry’s and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry’s inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer Michael Bernique was summoned to Saigon to explain to top navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream. Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann’s congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique’s were encouraged.
What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.
Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.
My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were “caught completely off guard.”
There’s at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It’s a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There’s no final authority on something that happened so long ago — not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.
But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they’re saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.
Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine-gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-calibre gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank. Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz’s boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.
The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.
Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his backyard.
Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbours for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the army.
With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they’re all living that war another time.
— Chicago Tribune
Ugh. I need a couple of things explained to me. I’ve been waiting patiently for PAD to condemn Kerry for trying to silence the SBV. The slightest hint at what he perceives as censorship from the right seems to stoke his ire, but this one passed right on by. Maybe PAD does change his mind…
Furthermore, I distinctly recall PAD saying that Bush’s military record is fair game because Bush showed up on the aircraft carrier in a flight suit. That was his only justification for carping on Bush’s supposed AWOL. Now, Kerry, who makes his service the PRIMARY point of his candidacy, gets a free pass on everything? Or did you change your mind again?
Beyond that, the bottom line is that the SBV are telling the TRUTH. All the truth? That’s probably not the case, but the FACT is that the Kerry campaign has now altered their stories on TWO of the positions that the SBV brought to light. They’ve switched gears on the Cambodia story, and this week admitted that the first purple heart may have been for self-inflicted wounds. A third issue, the V on the silver star, is also turning out to be an issue.
But, if you want to call it garbage, hey, unlike John Kerry, I believe you have a right to say what you want. Even if you AREN’T a democratic-leaning 527.
A few comments on what people have already said:
Taking your clothes off may be the dumbest form of protest, but it often achieves the desired result in terms of getting attention. Just look at the front page of the New York Daily News last week.
The Swift Boat ads were so successful mainly because the media grabbed the story and ran with it
re: the effectiveness of protest
As a native of Alabama who was alive in the sixties, let me say that protests and boycotts DO work! It WILL get media attention if massive and effective enough. And if “the establishment” over-reacts, (ie Kent State), then the complaintants gain widespread sympathy. If there is no reaction, then the message, though often muddled, has still given, without a response from the opposition. Widespread and organized protests helped end the Vietnam war, and an unintended protest by Rosa Parks changed our country forever. These were two of the most important examples of a democratic people forcing their government to obey their will in the twentieth century.
Sorry, but this is just the usual wishfull thinking by the Left… no one has been cowed into obedience at all. Not sure where you’re getting this — well, besides the usual Left talking points. And “Courage to talk back”? What a load of horse manure… Do you really believe this sort of stuff? Liberals have been never stopped speaking up against their opponents.
Pfft! Where the hëll have you been? People in this country were cowed into silence post-9/11. There was a massive sentiment of “wave this flag… or else!” that Bush used to get things like the “Patroit Act”, to push the war on Iraq, push $87 Billion ny saying the money was to “fund our troops” (eventhough $75 Billion of it was not going to the troops). That wasn’t people being patroitic, it was people being jingoistic and creating a devisive mentality of “either agree with us, or you agree with the people who knocked down the world trade center” and given the options, who do you think was the choice? (another popular variation is “America: Love it or leave it”)
Now, certainly, Bush did use that wave to push through some reforms that needed to be done, but he also abused it, and likely will try to squeeze as much as he can out of it if he’s re-elected.
Bottom line, when the phrase “live free, or die” is used as a threat, something is very wrong.
Believe it or not Sen. Hillary Clinton said something quite meaningful on “This Week”.
To paraphrase her, all the protest in the world isn’t going to bring the change needed (or desired) unless they are lawfully registered to vote and they exercise that right.
Beyond that, the bottom line is that the SBV are telling the TRUTH.
I despair of this country.
You know, I feel for the anti-Bush crowd. I really do. I’m not a fan of the guy either.
Now, having said that, can one of the people here’s that’s in favor of the protests explain to me how having a bicycling protest thats purpose is to try and shut down traffic throughout Manhattan by blocking the streets helps anyone’s cause other than the protestors’ opponents? If you’re going to protest, at least don’t actively try to screw over everyone in the most powerful city in the country, no matter what ‘side’ each person is on.
Hey, be nice, my in-laws are over there protesting. Or as I told them trying to relive their hippy days 😉