It doesn’t get more small town than this.
Ariel was marching in a Memorial Day parade today, thumping along on a honkin’ big drum as part of her school marching band. Great day to be displaying flags, because there was a steady wind and the flags were flapping beautifully in it.
To this day, I still think people should NOT (NOT, DAMMIT, NOT, FREAKIN’ ÐÃMN TYPO NOT) burn flags in protest. I believe they have the right to, and I think an amendment to oppose it is ridiculous. But the problem is that nobody burns flags because they have a problem with the flag. They do it as an attention getting device because they have some other issue. But the flag is so majestic, such a lovely symbol, that violating it is going to alienate the people you’re trying to convince of the rightness of your cause, whatever that may be. So I think it’s a pretty dumb thing to do.
When we’re in the midst of fighting a war, it gives Memorial Day that much more resonance. Let’s hope as many people come home safely as possible.
PAD
• 
I think there’s a “not” missing in there.
I’ve always agreed that “flag burning should continue to be legal.”
I’ve also always believed that “displaying the flag upside-down, as a sign of distress, is far more useful and moving a commentary, than the actual burning of it is” (at least to me).
Bravo.
Of course they don’t have a problem with the flag they burn, the flag is a meaningless piece of cloth, it’s what the flag represents.
Besides, they have to burn the flag because it’s illegal to burn Bush, CHeney, and Ashcroft themselves….
^^^
Don’t forget Rove.
In Germany it’s forbidden to hiss a german flag in your garden at all. So be lucky. 😉
You mean as in “Boo! Hisss!” ?
Knew there was a reason I hated Germany….
Why do you hate Germany? Why can anyone HATE any country? “Hate” is a very strong word, don’t you think? I don’t get it.
“To this day, I still think people should burn flags in protest.”
Not to be picky but I’m thinking PAD meant to write “I still think people should be allowed to burn flags in protest” since the rest of his statement explains why he DOESN’T think that they should.
Me, I’m all for it, for the very reasons PAD states–it turns off the very people they are trying to bring around. I always want my opponents to be as nutty sounding as possible, even if it means they imply a desire to, you know, BURN people or something.
Re German–some git just got arrested for teaching his dog to give the Seig Heil to people. THIS is what happens when you don’t have a first amendment. Next they’ll come after those of us who have cats that act like nazis, which is too say, all cat owners.
PAD said:
“When we’re in the midst of fighting a war, it gives Memorial Day that much more resonance. Let’s hope as many people come home safely as possible.”
Amen to that.
Oh get off your high-horse Mulligan, they’ve got the first ammendment in the USA and they’ll send the security services out to invesitgate kids who make inquiries about the layouts of their college.
Memorial day is on the 30th. Memorial Day Observed is the 31.
Actually, Memorial day is observed on the Final Monday of May, regardless of the actual date….
Bladestar is right..and it used to be called Decoration Day and was first meant to only observe the deaths of those who fought for the Union in the Civil War.
Me, I always thought that flag burning was one of the more sacred rights you have in America. If you can destroy the the symbol of all that your nation stands for and not be arrested, then you are living in a society that takes what the flag stands for seriously. I wouldn’t burn a flag myself, but I think our founding fathers, who were known to burn down custom houses and other objects of their ire, would not be against it in any way.
As far as the First Amendment goes, America is one of the few nations that actually has a freedom of speech and press strictly guaranteed by its Constitution. Most European nations have freedom of speech and the press, of course, but I don’t think they have any concrete guarantees of freedom from government censorship or interference. This doesn’t mean we in America can feel smug and superior, however, since it is only through the eternal vigilence of advocates that the First Amendment remains what it is.
Of course, the real problem with the First Amendment is that the only times it ever seems the only people who ever fight for it in court are the less dignified free speech advocates, like Larry Flint or the guy who put elephant poop on the Virgin Mary. Ah, well, none are free unless all are free.
And a moment of reflection. My grandfather, who served in the Navy as a cook during WWII, died last Monday of a stroke. He joins my other grandfather, who served with distinction in WWII and Korea. They are both greatly missed. God rest you Pop-Pop.
Ben Hunt
Memorial Day was designated a U.S. national holiday, and aso designated officially as the final Monday in May, by Congress in 1971:
http://www1.va.gov/pubaff/Memorial_Day/memdaybackgrd.htm#hist
Of course they don’t have a problem with the flag they burn, the flag is a meaningless piece of cloth, it’s what the flag represents.
Besides, they have to burn the flag because it’s illegal to burn Bush, CHeney, and Ashcroft themselves….
So you think the flag represents Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft?
So you burn it because burning them would be illegal?
So what you saying is you’d really like to kill them if you could?
How does that make YOU a better person than you think they are?
I usually just lurk, but I’m feeling a growing need to get pro-active these days (Look – up in the sky – it’s Pro-Active Man!).
Bill Mulligan said:
“Re German–some git just got arrested for teaching his dog to give the Seig Heil to people. THIS is what happens when you don’t have a first amendment. Next they’ll come after those of us who have cats that act like nazis, which is too say, all cat owners.”
Sorry, but thats just not true.
Germany DOES have freedom of speech. It’s in article 5 of their constitution (From that page you can also find the original German text, for those of you that read German):
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/ggeng.html
They do however have strick laws prohibiting anything that even appears even slightly related to the Nazi’s. The Swastika-flag is forbidden by law, which to my knowledge is not the case in the States.
I don’t know the specifics regarding their flags, but I think Pascal is right – they do have pretty strict laws there as well.
Why? Well, my explanation (and we’re moving into pet theory country here, so this is just my opinion etc…) is that the German public is still suffering from the collective trauma, that was WWII. The past 50 years or so the Germans have been working very hard to distance themselveles from the mistakes of the past.
They have banned the Nazi’s and anything related to them. This is also the reason for the laws regarding when they can use their national flag. They want to avoid any appearence of nationalism, which is what got them into trouble in the first place.
And while we’re in pet theory country, this is also one of the primary reasons why they did not want to go to Iraq (whether that’s right or wrong is another debate). They do not want to look like the agressor ever again. In the span of 40 or 50 years they lost two wars big enough to be called World Wars, so they’re not about to start fighting again. Because, you know, it didn’t go so well for them the last couple of times.
Sorry about the rant… Oh, yeah. On topic:
Should you burn flags (any flags)?: NO
Should you be allowed to?: YES
OK, I’ll just go back to lurking now
“When we’re in the midst of fighting a war, it gives Memorial Day that much more resonance. Let’s hope as many people come home safely as possible.”
Amen.
Ditto.
Ben Hunt: Of course, the real problem with the First Amendment is that the only times it ever seems the only people who ever fight for it in court are the less dignified free speech advocates, like Larry Flint or the guy who put elephant poop on the Virgin Mary
Luigi Novi: What is undignified about Chris Ofili? He didn’t create the “Sensation” exhibit, or the “The Holy Virgin Mary” piece in particular in order to offend people. Ofili is himself a church-going Catholic, and has a history of creating works that use organic materials, including a shark suspended in a tank of formaldehyde, a bust of a man made from his own frozen blood and a folded-over mattress with a water bucket, melons and a cucumber standing between a pair of oranges. Although his work had raised eyebrows before the
“I wouldn’t burn a flag myself, but I think our founding fathers, who were known to burn down custom houses and other objects of their ire, would not be against it in any way.”
I’m not against it from a legal point of view, but rather a practical point of view. To my mind, there should be more to registering a public protest than just saying, “This pìššëš me off.” The subtext is, or should be, “This pìššëš me off, and you should be pìššëd øff about it as well.” Incumbent in public protest should be that you’re trying to convince others of the rightness of your cause; otherwise it’s no different, and no more productive, than standing in your living room and screaming at CNN. But in choosing such an (no pun intended) inflammatory means of grabbing attention, you will very likely alienate the very people you’re trying to sway to your side without them actually listening to whatever points you’re trying to make.
“Why do you hate Germany? Why can anyone HATE any country? “Hate” is a very strong word, don’t you think? I don’t get it.”
Because people don’t think of a country as individuals, but rather as an entity. Pretty much all enmity stems from not thinking of people as individuals…and, by extension, humans. Every atrocity in history has its basis, I think, in “dehumanizing” others, from the Holocaust to Iraqi prisons and every genocide you can name. That said, I personally don’t hate Germany. Last time I was there, at a convention in 2002, everyone treated me very well…although, candidly, going to a “Western” bar and watching a roomful of Germans line-dancing to “Islands in the Stream” remains one of the most surreal events I’ve ever witnessed.
“Of course, the real problem with the First Amendment is that the only times it ever seems the only people who ever fight for it in court are the less dignified free speech advocates, like Larry Flint or the guy who put elephant poop on the Virgin Mary. Ah, well, none are free unless all are free.”
I’m curious, Ben: Have you actually *seen* that painting? In person, standing three, four feet away from it? Because I have. And I thought it was one of the most transcendently beautiful pieces I’ve ever seen. I thought it was a breathtaking tribute to the Virgin Mary, and that’s coming from a Jew. I know it’s hard to believe that artwork which features such diverse elements as a small lump of (not, as it has been falsely reported, “smeared with”) dried dung to images of female genitalia can be brought together into a masterpiece of tribute to Catholicism…but then again, that’s why it’s called “art.”
If anyone ever, EVER have the chance to see it in person and judge this glittering mosaic of a piece for yourself, rather than having journalists or shortsighted politicians do so on your behalf, I highly advise it.
PAD
Well, for one thing Clarkles, I’m not sending American soldiers to die for no good reason in Iraq while I siit safe and well protected by secret servicemen in the US…
Fletch, back from the humorectomy, says
“Oh get off your high-horse Mulligan, they’ve got the first ammendment in the USA and they’ll send the security services out to invesitgate kids who make inquiries about the layouts of their college.”
Actually I was making a joke about cats, not our always good natured German friends. As for the kids in question–since we are told that it was some major failure of intelligence that didn’t see how obvious it was that middle easterners learning to fly were clearly intending to do a Tom Clancy into the twin Towers it may be understandable that some are taking a more proactive CYA approach now. At any rate, were the kids arrested? Rotting in Guantanamo? Had their file sharing privilages revoked?
Equus says:
“Germany DOES have freedom of speech…
They do however have strick laws prohibiting anything that even appears even slightly related to the Nazi’s. The Swastika-flag is forbidden by law, which to my knowledge is not the case in the States.”
So….they have freedom of speech except as it pertains to certain political beliefs. Ooooookay. Sounds to me like they are afraid of their own people. While freedom of speech is not absolute anywhere–try saying racial epithets in class and see how long it takes to get fired–I feel pretty confident that I can write cranky letters to the local paper espousing nazis, communists, Al Gore, whatever, and not get tossed in the pokey.
Fletch, back from the humorectomy, says
“Oh get off your high-horse Mulligan, they’ve got the first ammendment in the USA and they’ll send the security services out to invesitgate kids who make inquiries about the layouts of their college.”
Actually I was making a joke about cats, not our always good natured German friends. As for the kids in question–since we are told that it was some major failure of intelligence that didn’t see how obvious it was that middle easterners learning to fly were clearly intending to do a Tom Clancy into the twin Towers it may be understandable that some are taking a more proactive CYA approach now. At any rate, were the kids arrested? Rotting in Guantanamo? Had their file sharing privilages revoked?
Equus says:
“Germany DOES have freedom of speech…
They do however have strick laws prohibiting anything that even appears even slightly related to the Nazi’s. The Swastika-flag is forbidden by law, which to my knowledge is not the case in the States.”
So….they have freedom of speech except as it pertains to certain political beliefs. Ooooookay. Sounds to me like they are afraid of their own people. While freedom of speech is not absolute anywhere–try saying racial epithets in class and see how long it takes to get fired–I feel pretty confident that I can write cranky letters to the local paper espousing nazis, communists, Al Gore, whatever, and not get tossed in the pokey.
Aaak! Sorry about the double post–I got a message saying error, can’t find directory, something like that but I guess everything is ok.
Thanks Equus, you’re right about the reasons Germany has no tolerance against racism and nationalism that could lead to it. “No tolerance against Intolerance” – that summes it up.
I think someone mentioned that writing about Nazis or related things is banned in Germany. That’s NOT the case. Instead the country does a lot to remind people of the mistakes of the past, there’s not a single year in school when Nazi-Germany and the failed “democracy” of the Weimar Republic are not discussed or talked about, usually from all sides and view points, not just the one from the own country (which you can’t really say for american schools, just from what I heard from friends in the US).
Every country’s politics are heavily influenced by its history. American history differs very much from the german experiences.
Is it true that Mein Kamf can’t be legally published or purchased in Germany? I should think that Hitler’s prewar rants would be essential reading for anyone wanting a full understnding of his madness.
Are Leni Riefenstahl’s films allowed to be played?
I wonder if the prohibition against nazi symbols makes them any more popular among misguided youth. I know that around here, if you announced that all confederate flags were prohibited you’d have lots of kids wearing them just to be annoying (even some Black kids, amazingly enough).
PAD,
Very, very beutiful and powerful sentiments. Thank you.
“Mein Kampf” can’t be legally purchased in book shops. But it’s no problem to read excerpts in history books or full analysis and exams on it. I don’t know about Leni Riefenstahl’s movies, but I haven’t seen one of them, except in documentaries, but I don’t think they aren’t allowed to be played. TV channels probably wouldn’t touch them anyway and there is no demand.
BillMulligan said:
“Is it true that Mein Kamf can’t be legally published or purchased in Germany? I should think that Hitler’s prewar rants would be essential reading for anyone wanting a full understnding of his madness.”
A quick search at amazon.de showed several editions, even some audiobooks. I have to admit I never really looked at the laws, but I think you are not allowed to print or sell an uncommented edition.
“Are Leni Riefenstahl’s films allowed to be played?”
Definitely, we watched “Triumph des Willens” in university as part of a lecture on war and the media, and the band Rammstein used some Riefenstahl material for a video clip some years ago (called “stripped”). They took a lot of heat for it which I think is quite funny considering that as a band they are pretty unpolitical and their band members are rather left wing. They chose the footage mainly for aesthetical reasons (ok, probably also to get some controversy going, they are not stupid)
“I wonder if the prohibition against nazi symbols makes them any more popular among misguided youth. I know that around here, if you announced that all confederate flags were prohibited you’d have lots of kids wearing them just to be annoying (even some Black kids, amazingly enough).”
Again, what I’m saying now is my understanding of the law without doing any research and mainly from the things I read a few years ago, but I think the nazi symbols are only prohibited if you use them in a non-historic context or a context that propagates national socialism (which can’t be exactly right; the Indiana Jones movies for example run the same way in Germany as they do in the US. On the other hand, there was an issue of the Amalgam comics, “Super Soldier”, which had to be recalled because the german publisher in retouching all swastikas in to squares with a cross inside had overlooked one tiny swastika. I own this issue, and after hearing about this I went looking, if I hadn’t had the page number, I never would have found it, it definetely was to small to be seen by just reading the book. Makes you wonder what kind of time some people have on their hands. And I think it’s time to close these parentheses)
Benjamin Gaede
Well, for one thing Clarkles, I’m not sending American soldiers to die for no good reason in Iraq while I siit safe and well protected by secret servicemen in the US…
But you’d do it for a REALLY GOOD reason while you sat safe and protected by secret servicemen in the US?
Benjamin,
I also own the Super Soldier book that you mentioned, and thought this whole incident was rather stupid.
“Maus” was also forbidden (for a month or so), because of the portrayel of Jews as mice and the swastika on the cover – until a judge stated that there’s no danger in the book, because it shows in an intelligent story the bad side of WWII, it doesn’t glorify racism, the holocaust, etc.
Too bad Bush still hasn’t produced a “REALLY GOOD” reason for invading Iraq….
Benjamin and Pascal–thanks for the info.
I still think it’s a potentailly dangerous situation for the government to have the ability to control thought expressions. A quick glance through google has a few sites claiming that it is now illegal in germany and france to express any doubts as to the facts about the Holocaust.
While Holocaust deniers should rank high on anyone’s list of scum it seems to me that all it takes is a change of government or the prevalent public mood to next go after others who express doubts about what most of us see as facts–the Chomski crowd, alternative medicine fans, whatever. I know it’s awfully hard to get worked up over the sad plight of idiots but it’s the right thing to do
I agree that Germany’s anti-Nazi propaganda laws do go too far in restricting freedom of speech. Given their history, though, it may be understandable why they would feel the need to clamp down on it.
I don’t agree with the reasoning. Even bášŧárdš and morons have the right to have their say, but I can understand it.
Benjamin, I can assure you that Rammstein is far from the only band to have run into trouble with European critics for silly reasons.
On Type O Negative’s third album, “October Rust”, they included an instrumental track entitled “The Glorious Liberation of the People’s Technocratic Republic of Vinnland By the Combined Forces of the United Tribes of Europa”. Aside from the long title, it seems pretty innocuous – save that at one point, you can hear marching feet, and a voice counting to four in German, repeatedly. That was enough to get the band labeled neo-Nazi in several European publications! (And, of course, the whole thing served to inspire the song “We Hate Everyone”, on their next album, “Bloody Kisses”:
Right-wing Commies,
Leftist Nazis,
Point the finger,
Rumors linger…
…Branded sexist,
Labelled racist,
Want it clearer?
Check a mirror…)
Too bad Bush still hasn’t produced a “REALLY GOOD” reason for invading Iraq….
Sez you. In my opinion the reasons he gave were all valid, but frankly, not needed. We should have finished the job the first time around, but we were too busy appeasing the rest of the world. I would have gone back in the first time they shot at one of our planes patroling the “No-Fly Zone”. But that’s just me. I thought Clinton would do it once, but all he did was stomp his foot and wag his finger at Saddam.
In my opinion the reasons he gave were all valid, but frankly, not needed.
And I keep asking when we’re going to invade every other country with these supposedly same “valid” reasons, yet I get called a warmonger.
Go figure.
Simple Craig, because those other nations CAN fight back, where as Iraq couldn’t until after the formal military was effectively scattered and reduced to their current tactics, nullifying America’s technological superiority…
Yeah, it is illegal to deny the holocaust in public in Germany. Just for a better understanding: The chances that Germans (government and/or the people) go after people with minority opinions (like you listed, Bill) is non-existent in this case, because in this rare case the anti-Nazi laws were created in 1949 with the help of the USA and can’t be changed by anyone. In fact, it’s based on your constitution, it just tries to be not as full of holes as in the Weimar republic. And a change in govenment wouldn’t be as dramatic here as in the US. 😉
Benjamin Gaede wrote:
– BillMulligan said:
– “Is it true that Mein Kamf can’t be legally
– published or purchased in Germany? I should
– think that Hitler’s prewar rants would be
– essential reading for anyone wanting a full
– understnding of his madness.”
– A quick search at amazon.de showed several
– editions, even some audiobooks. I have to admit
– I never really looked at the laws, but I think
– you are not allowed to print or sell an
– uncommented edition.
If I remember correctly, you are not allowed to publish “Mein Kampf” in Germany, although technically part of the reason for that is that the copyright for Hitler’s published works belongs to the state of Bavaria (presumably because his private residence was in Munich) after his private effects they were impounded at the end of the war. And the Bavarian state government has no intention of publishing a new edition of the book AFAIK. Also AFAIK it is not forbidden to buy second-hand copies.
German school textbooks on 20th-century history generally feature a few quotes from “Mein Kampf”, which for most people probably is quite enough (“Mein Kampf” is “famous” for not having been read by most of its pre-1945 owners because apparently only the most dedicated readers had enough enthusiasm not to lay it aside after a few pages). And fairly recently there was an actor who toured the (Federal) Republic doing recitals from “Mein Kampf” in theaters.
“Are Leni Riefenstahl’s films allowed to be played?”
– Definitely, we watched “Triumph des Willens” in
– university as part of a lecture on war and the
– media, and the band Rammstein used some
– Riefenstahl material for a video clip some
– years ago (called “stripped”).
I too saw performance of “Triumph” at university, but IIRC in my case the performance was organized by the Allgemeine Studentenausschuss (our equivalent of the Students’ Union?). I also saw her two films about the 1936 Olympics on a commercial German TV channel.
“I wonder if the prohibition against nazi symbols makes them any more popular among misguided youth. I know that around here, if you announced that all confederate flags were prohibited you’d have lots of kids wearing them just to be annoying (even some Black kids, amazingly enough).”
Well, I’m not sure if an outright prohibition would be necessary for this effect. Don’t you have people reacting that way in the U.S. even though Nazi symbols and Confederate flags aren’t actually prohibited, just protested against?
– Again, what I’m saying now is my understanding
– of the law without doing any research and
– mainly from the things I read a few years ago,
– but I think the nazi symbols are only
– prohibited if you use them in a non-historic
– context or a context that propagates national
– socialism (which can’t be exactly right; the
– Indiana Jones movies for example run the same
– way in Germany as they do in the US. On the
– other hand, there was an issue of the Amalgam
– comics, “Super Soldier”, which had to be
– recalled because the german publisher in
– retouching all swastikas in to squares with a
– cross inside had overlooked one tiny swastika.
– I own this issue, and after hearing about this
– I went looking, if I hadn’t had the page
– number, I never would have found it, it
– definetely was to small to be seen by just
– reading the book. Makes you wonder what kind of
– time some people have on their hands. And I
– think it’s time to close these parentheses)
Well, the problem is in part that the various censorship/self-censorship bodies that enter into this do not always seem to be using the same standards (not even one body). And some of these people seem to have a hair-trigger reaction whenever there is a swastika or a picture of Hitler on the cover, tend to err on the side of caution (as I recall, shipments of some issues of The Fantastic Four and Wonder Woman were held up by customs for that reason). But then you often get a more extreme reaction when entertainment for children and minors is involved, although some material which really is more objectionable slips under the radar by avoiding blatant use of Nazi symbols.
Tilman
Menshevik – I work at a Customs office but it isn’t usual to “held up” comic books or any art/literature just because it depicts nazi symbols or anything. We have an almost endless list (sadly) of pubications that aren’t allowed in Germany, most of it are underground fanzines and books anyway. But Wonder Woman, etc? I can only think of checking the book out to see if anything in it is against the german constitution. And a swastika alone isn’t usually enough. 🙂
Pascal says
Yeah, it is illegal to deny the holocaust in public in Germany. Just for a better understanding: The chances that Germans (government and/or the people) go after people with minority opinions (like you listed, Bill) is non-existent in this case, because in this rare case the anti-Nazi laws were created in 1949 with the help of the USA and can’t be changed by anyone. In fact, it’s based on your constitution, it just tries to be not as full of holes as in the Weimar republic. And a change in govenment wouldn’t be as dramatic here as in the US. ;)”
I find this fascinating! But how can it be that the laws “can’t be changed by anyone”? Is the entire constitution immutable or just certain sections?
But even if your are right that the laws only pertain to nazis, my point is still that once you establish that certain thoughts are criminal you open the potential for serious abuses. I can understand why the Allies and doubtlessly many Germans supported the laws being enacted and support them still but unless one thinks that germans are somehow genetically predisposed to totalitarianism it seems to me that it’s time any and all intellectual shackles be thrown off. Keeping these laws gives one the impression that left to their own devices today’s Germans would go right back to the old regime.
Well, all I know is that a fairly recent issue of Wonder Woman was unavailable at my local comic store and they told me it had been held up at the border. It was during John Byrne’s run on that title, and as far as I remember it was set either in World War 2 or in a world where the Axis powers had won World War 2. And something rather like that had happened in the early 1980s, involving an issue of Fantastic Four (also by Byrne, I think), a time-travel story involving Nick Fury and featuring a scene where IIRC Nick was about to shoot Hitler and the others were shouting at him not to do it (in order not to disrupt the space-time continuum or some explanation like that).
Tilman
The human rights and the rights of an individual are held up above everything in the constitution. We have a so called “Grundgesetz” (“main law”) and Article 20 and 79 of it state that most of this new version of the constitution is unchangeable. 79 lists a few ways to change some articles, but that would take an almost impossible agreement in politics and most of the human rights really are immutable. Keep in mind, that a weak constitution is what Hitler used to get to his power (among other things).
As to your other point: No, Germany is one of the last countries that would go back to “the old regime” if there’d be no “fail safe”. Racism and anti-semitism is very low compared to the rest of europe. But isn’t it understandable that the Government doesn’t want people to think that we’ve forgotten about the past? That’s one of the reasons denial of the holocaust is illegal. From your view point it’s very different. You don’t have to prove you’re on the side of the good guys (well, until recently 😉 ). You don’t have a problem with being “patriotic”. But I don’t want to count the many times some German showed that he was proud of being german and a loud outcry and red alert started. And not from the own government, but from the rest of the world. Isn’t it sad that when I go to England there are many places I have to keep my mouth shut about being german? I was called “Hitler” and “nazi” in the rest of Europe, just because of my nationality. Even if Germany would cease to remind itself of the sins of the past, others wouldn’t let go of it that easily. Hopefully, you’ll understand this side of the coin better now. 🙂
Bill Mulligan:
Well, obviously declaring certain thoughts (or to be more precise, expressing and/or propagating such thoughts) criminal could be open to various abuses, but you have such laws in every society, including the United States (partly e.g. thanks to laws against libel, treason, using the “shouting Fire! in a crowded theater” rationale). (A lot of the laws limiting free speech were imposed on State and Territory level, by the way, for instance I recently read up a little on the American Civil War again and noticed that in the 1850s the pro-slavery Kansas legislature made a law that anyone denying the legality of slave ownership in the Territory should get five years in prison.)
The (fairly recent) German law against Holocaust denial can probably be best compared to libel laws, because its main purpose is to safeguard Holocaust survivors and relatives of Holocaust victims from the anguish caused by declaring that their own or their family’s sufferings are a lie without having to go through and pay for an expensive lawsuit themselves.
Pascal,
I’m not surprised that there are places in Europe where you still get crap. But I doubt that legislating against thought crimes will convince them. The best thing would be to allow some idiot to run on a ultra nationalist platform and let him get fewer votes than his French counterparts.
I mean, what percentage of the current German population was even ALIVE when the atrocities occurred? At some point you need to look these feeps in the eye and when they start bìŧçhìņg about stuff that happened before you were born tell them that they are obviously looking for a much older gentleman. (unless one actually believes in the “sins of the father” type mysticism).
Menshevik,
I understand the idea behind the laws and, really, I can’t get TOO worked up over a few nazis getting jailed and/or fined. But…I probably ought to.
“We should have finished the job the first time around, but we were too busy appeasing the rest of the world.”
(In best angry Homer Simpson voice) Stupid rest of the world!
PAD
But people do believe in the ‘sins of the father type mysticism’ (as you say it) in many parts of the world. The view of the US isn’t the view held by many other places around the globe. And before you tell me its stupid, and unfair, and irrational and all that (I must say on a personal and indeed, cultural level I have been brought up to reject the idea in my own affairs) it is a philosophy that is both open to abuse and capable of excellent things.
For some (extremely limited, as this is not my anthro speciality) examples:
Abuse – German people getting abuse for being part of a country that once had dominant Nazi ideaology and all that came after
Good stuff – certain groups in Central Africa where how your ancestors behave is tied irrevocably to your own actions. Where you, and your line before and after you are viewed as extensions of the same organism and therefore are going to be accountable for the behaviour and activities of the others. From this sprouts a responibility which ensures civility and carefulness, for concern of their children’s futures and what will be said of their ancestors. Don’t put a step wrong now, because what YOU do, will forever live on in THEM.
Perhaps not in so precise a form, but in spirit, this idea lives in the new kin bonds of nationalism. Belonging to a nation is a badge, but depending on who sees it, it can be an aspect of your individuality, or of your inextricable link with the past, present and future of your nation.
It’s all so much more complicated than the ‘mysticism’ label you cheerfully and erroniously apply to the situation.
Craig and Bladestar,
You know, of all the arguments made on this board, the “if we’re invading Iraq, then why not country X” is by far the weakest.
A.) If you feel the invasion is wrong, then it’s wrong and you should be able to debunk the justifications on their merits. I mean, if we WERE invading North Korea, Iran, Syria, and oh, Zimbabwe right now for the same reasons we are in Iraq, would you be happy then?
B.) Who’s to say we WON’T take care of these other countries in due time? I wouldn’t bet against it, especially with the constant talk of Saddam sending his WMD to Syria, with North Korea rattling its saber, and with it pretty much established that Iran and Syria have been sending terrorists/troops across the border to Iraq, well, I wouldn’t rule it out.
I guess you’ll both be happier then.
And Bladestar, can you ever NOT write like an angry hothead? The whole point of this thread was PAD stating that although we all have the RIGHT to burn the flag, doing so is pretty ugly, does nothing but draw attention to the person doing it, and totally perverts the issue the burner supposedly wants raised. It produces heat instead of light, if you will. And the first thing you do is state, “They have to burn the flag” because it’s illegal to burn Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, etc.
Do you know how many people were actually cited for burning an American flag last year? About three, i believe. So obviously, millions of people don’t HAVE to and are invoking other forms of protest. And as for the rest of your post, it’s obvious your usual single-mindedness caused you to miss the point, which again is a shame since PAD’s initial statements were so heartfelt and eloquent, but then again that’s par for the course on your part.