Am I the only one who would like to bìŧçhšláp whoever the idiot is at the WB that came up with “a fresh episode.” What, “new” wasn’t a good enough word? These are TV programs, for crying out loud, not produce.
Anyway, onward. Spoilers abound so, y’know, if you’re in England, don’t come whining to me about it because I just warned you.
SMALLVILLE: The continuing (albeit somewhat endless) subplot with the Indian caves takes an interesting turn as a superpowered dagger falls into the hands of a poor schmuck who fancies himself his people
• 
Re: Angel
Man, Amy Acker has contiued to grow on me. And her transformation from Fred to Illyria has had me really admiring her talents. Anyway, I agree that this week her performance seemed truly authentic. Hope there’s a place for her in the “Firefly” flick!
So she won
I like the thought of a Princess Bride allusion not that I think your theory will pan out much in the next two episodes. However, there is alot of similarities so it makes me happy.
I would like to have a copy of the episode, but I didn’t tape it, because now I want to go back through and analyze the rest of what was said. For instance, from memory, Wes was upset at her posing as Fred when she told her “never do it again.” Which is really similar in intent on buttercup’s line “You mocked me once, never do it again — I died that day!”
Guess I’ll have to wait for it to be released on DVD. Fun thoughts if nothing else.
Lana’s off to Paris, Rachel was off to Paris, Carrie in Sex And The City went to Paris… what’s with the sudden obsession?
ANGEL:
Since the cards have been dealt, we’ve been promised AN end, but not THE end.
After all, how can you wrap up everything going on in this series in just 2 hours???
My guess (besides the world being saved once again) is that Wesley/”Fred”, and Angel/Spike resolve the differences within their ‘relationships’.
Meanwhile, anyone have any realistic news on the “Save Angel” campaign results?
SMALLVILLE:
For long time readers and/or continuity buffs, here’s a friendly reminder.
There has been much retconning over the course of Superman’s life, that nothing should be taken for granted, and DC long ago established that Earth-OMP (Other Media Presentations) is just an alternate dimension (probably now their version of the Twilight Zone annexed to Hypertime) where nothing on the screen affects the books.
So if the Post Crisis/Zero Hour comic book continuity remains relatively ‘intact’, before the series finale, Clark does tell Lana EVERYTHING, although he still winds up going to Metropolis alone.
Now the biggest mystery in all of this is Chloe.
She has been the one refreshing character in this series. A complete blank slate to work with, nuture, and grow upon. Personally, I think the producers has done an admireable job with her character while working within the context of the Superman ‘mythos’.
Now there have been several theories on her ‘final fate’, running the gamit between her dying before graduation to going to Metropolis on her own and assuming the identity of Lois Lane.
With Lana potentially “out of the picture” (in Paris), I would like to see a Chloe/Clark relationship blossom in Season 4.
Granted, the outcome to the whole series is going to be worth about as much as the series finale to “Friends”, but it would make for more interesting episodes in my opinion.
Thanks much for the synopsis of Smallville since i missed it this week.Definitely want to catch the repeat for the Lex justification of the destruction of Clark in the future you referenced.
ANGEL:I loved this episode,the chemistry between Spike and Angel never ceases to amuse me.I disagree with looking like shmucks on this point.
As you stated being with Buffy takes the testostorone right out of you .(Riley got out in time huh?)So the ineptitude may have been more about the obsession with the Buffster than thier own incompetence.
I agree that Angelus was not up to his normal self but maybe the Immortal was just that much better.Favorite lines “Drusilla and Darla concurrently? You never let me get that.”
“Safe harbor to nuns ??He cant do that! Thats your bag mate”Finally the priceless Angel bìŧçhìņg about Buffy being with a guy who may or may not have a soul and may or may not be evil.Funny stuff!
The Fred/Wes subplot was sooo good and a big reason why i really am going to hate the show going bye bye.The subtle way his eyes went from surprise to utter hatred when she walked out was
brilliant.If Alexis Denisof and amy Acker cant find work elsewhere something is wrong.
She is doing an awesome job as Fred/Illyria though it makes you wonder what other abilities she may be hiding,Illyria not Amy.Funny i never noticed how really pretty she is until now.I always thought she was attractive but I guess after her being Illyria you realize how much you miss Fred being around .The final two episodes bettter be good though i cant see how all storylines are wrapped up neatly.
I dunno. Agreed that the Wes/”Fred” material was solid (and Amy Acker really impressed me by being able to switch characters so quickly and with so little outer change), but the Spike/Angel stuff … ehh. There were moments here and there (the Darla/Dru flashback being the biggest highlight), but I just don’t care enough about either character’s Buffy obsession to get into a show which whacks us on the head about it.
The A-plot was also such a standalone that we were almost wondering if it was written and planned for significantly earlier in the season, then rewritten and tossed in at the end once it was clear they wouldn’t get SMG.
I’ll also admit that once Spike’s jacket got hit by the explosion, I was hoping he might actually lose it, so that we’d have some sort of end-of-an-era thing happening. Nope, just a gag.
Sigh. At least we didn’t get the resolution I was fearing, namely that the Immortal actually ran the Rome division of W&H. Or worse, that he was Andrew.
TWL
I don’t know if this episode really belongs so late in the final season, but it was dámņ funny, and I loved it. I didn’t pick at holes in it beacuse I was too busy watching a dámņ good show and being entertained.
If it weren’t for the fact that in the back of my m,ind I know that every episode is one episode closer to no episodes, I would have loved it. But with things being As They Are I want a homerun with bases loaded every time (which is not realistic, I know).
But it did give us a geekdom catchphrase that will linger for years (unless there are gypsies present).
Some folks have complained about Andrew’s sudden change in, um, preferences. Hey, it was ok with Willow but once gay never back? C’mon, give the guy a break. Hëll, if Italian women look half as hot as the ones we saw, Richard Simmons would be tempted to take a walk on the wild side.
PAD,
You are not the only one totally irritated by the WB’s new tagline campaign of “Fresh Episodes”.
I do my own weekly online column, and it this week’s edition I included my thoughts on that ridiculous new thing they are doing.
If you want to check out what I wrote, It’s Item #8 in the TV/Film section. I provided the URL with my info for this post.
Oops. Forgot the link doesn’t show up if I don’t save the personal info. The link is http://www.simplyjd.com/cpr/main.shtml
Re:
ANGEL – I think the point of making Angel and Spike so ineffectual in this episode was important. This was an episode that was all about the whole “fragile male ego” concept. Angel and Spike are constantly competing with the Immortal as if Buffy were the prize. And I think most men have trouble dealing with the idea of their exes moving on. Or perhaps they have trouble with the idea of being left behind.
It’s interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. While it took Angel three years to form an attachment to Cordelia, it took Buffy less than one to find Riley after Angel left. (Yes, Angel had certain limitations and whatnot–curses and social skills being at the top of that list…) It’s like Andrew said, Angel and Spike are chasing their own tails, while Buffy is actually out there living her life. It’s like the difference between dogs and cats.
I suppose the only way for Angel and Buffy to end up together… is if Angel stops worrying if he and Buffy will end up together. And if he stops worrying if they end up together, then it doesn’t really matter if they *do* end up together, does it? Wasn’t that the whole point of Buffy’s “cookie dough” speech?
Has Angel even *grown* over the course of the series, or has being a vampire stunted him? Watching Buffy, you can see how strong and confident she’s become over the years. How has Angel changed?
Regarding “The Girl In Question.”
Wow. I bet this read much better than it played.
Well, at least the Spuffies and the Bangelers will have something to agree about.
Besides thinking that the episode had too many
This has already become one of my favorite Angel episodes. I find it surprising how some people just can’t stand their protagonists to be anything but victorious. It’s something I’ve never understood. If only Spike or only Angel had been the ‘loser’ I can understand it, but it being them both, balanced things out.
And as some pointed out already, it’s Buffy. She’s always turned these two into mush, and it’s no surprise that recognizing themselves in each other, and seeing their current roles of ‘has beens’ in the Buffster’s life hit them hard. Especially since it’s the Immortal. As for never having been mentioned before: Get over it. He clearly hadn’t been ‘invented’ then but really, I can see how neither of them would EVER want to mention him.
As for Angelus not stopping before he got the Immortal….well, did it occur to you, Peter, that in the Immortal he truly found his superior? That the guy simly is that much better? Maybe it wasn’t a matter of choice.
James and David were brilliant as comedic duo. Their timing and facial expressions had me in stitches. And there are so many quotable lines of dialogue in this one that I don’t even know where to start. ‘Those were MY nuns!’ The ‘who saved the world more often’ dialogue. Angel trying to get credit for S2’s ‘Becoming’! Priceless. Angel’s cookie dough rant. Spike’s reaction to it.
And yes the Wes/Illyria bits were superb as well, in a whole different way. Let me sing Amy’s praises as well. Her switching back and forth was almost frightening.
I am going to miss this show terribly.
Oh and Peter, your line about the best revenge is to leave the guy to Buffy was as funny as the ep itself. And very very true!
Great Angel episode.
” I recall a comment about him being soulless.”
Not that I recall. And they obviously showed that the Immortal could be a good guy too, since he saved those nuns from Angelus back then.
“This storyline reduced Angel and Spike from heroes to buffoons and seriously cheapened Buffy.”
Ludicrous. Nothing in here ‘cheapened’ Buffy! She has a new boyfriend. That’s it! Who likes to play tricks on Angel and Spike. Oooh the evil. Please we know nothing really of the guy except from people who admire him or Angel and Spike who just can’t stand him. And why wouldn’t Angel and Spike be shown as buffoons? The right girl can turn any guy into an idiot and that was the point here.
Yeah heaven forbid we see our heroes as anything less than absolute gods and winners. Please, if anything this makes them more likable and more ‘human’. We all have off days. We’ve all known that someone who always had one up on us and felt the frustration.
If you want a show were the heroes are so bloody invincible that hardly a punch is ever landed against them, then watch Xena reruns. Or those fake wretling matches. Fortunately Whedon’s shows have always been more sophisticated than that childish simplicity of ‘good guys always win. Bad guys always fall down.’
: Their arch nemesis, the Immortal, a shady and mysterious figure (but not, presumably, Vandal Savage or even Christopher George) who has loomed so large in both their lives that neither of them have mentioned him in eight years, is dating Buffy.
Buffy was dating Ðìçk Clark?
Now I always liked Amy Acker, but my respect for her talent as an actress has just shot through the roof. She effortlessly switches between “Fred” and Illyria simply through body posture and dropping her voice.
Must agree whole-heartly. I mean, sometimes I even have trouble believing the same actress played both. But it made me miss Fred.
However, on a possible plus note: Illyria was able to play Fred perfectly, which Fred may not be as “gone” as she stated in earlier episodes.
If these Shows are all FRESH now. Does that make the reruns stale or Rotten perhaps?
For a while there, I thought the Immortal referred to Dracula, although it seems pretty clear it isn’t (tho t’would have been a nice twist).
This ep of Angel reminded me very much of the Farscape episode where Crichton and D’Argo get rolled in a bar, and go chasing after Chianna and the screaming girl, who’ve hooked up with the local aristo. Partly plot, partly throbbing dance music… but it had the same goofy vibe (although nobody woke up wearing fishnets in Angel).
On the B plot, I’m amazed at how little else Amy Acker has done, according to imdb.com. Somebody ought to be hiring her. Perhaps she does stage, like another genre fave Tim Choate?
On WB’s “Fresh” — “fresh” wouldn’t be so bad, but it’s “FurESCH” — kind of obscene in the pronunciation, really annoying. Lastly, speaking of fresh/new… whatever happened to reruns? It’s always alternative/reality in the off months, and I’m not sure I’ll ever catch the Tru finale.
ANGEL:
I agree with so many people here that my post has turned into a grab bag of thoughts/reactions:
I liked the episode. I just didn’t like where it ran. I would’ve liked to have seen this much earlier in the season. I, like another poster, couldn’t really bring myself to enjoy all the laughs and giggles because I knew “Angel” would soon go away. I am sure that when reality sets– and the box set is eventually released– I’ll really be able to enjoy this particular ep.
But now, except for the more than excellent Fred/Illyria/Wesley scenes, the rest just seems like a mere trifle.
My favorite line, bar none: Spike– after seeing Drusilla walk in from the other room– yelling “SON OF A BÍTÇH!”
Another poster on another site said that if James Marsters didn’t win a Best Actor or Best Supporting Actor Emmy for that line alone– then one (or both) of the categories should just simply be discarded. I agree. (Remember, many believe to this day that Cher won Best Actress for “Moonstruck” simply because of the well timed slap of Nic Cage’s face, followed by her immortal “Snap out of it!” line.)
And for the poster who asked: If you go to Whedonesque.com– It seems that Joss himself is nay-saying the TV Movie theory/rumors… At least for for now. (This interview also ran on SciFi.com but contains FINAL SHOW SPOILERS so I stopped reading!)
Peter, expert timing on the Amy Acker shout out. What a phenomenally lovely, extremely talented person she is. I also agree wholeheartedly with Buffy being a testosterone sucker. When both Spike & Angel finally realized it was time to move on too– I thought, “Good. Get over her already.” Realistically, how many possible STD’s (and their recombinant variations) could the woman have after sleeping with Angel, Spike and now someone called “The Immortal”? Riley’s penicillin bill alone must be enormous!
Finally, how would you like to be the actress/stuntwoman whose resume now includes this credit:
ANGEL / Warner Bros. / Back of Buffy’s Head
?
SMALLVILLE: Definitely a GREAT episode. The Lex/Lana exchnges were great. I hope the WB writers don’t cop out and keep Lana in Smallville. Yes, I love looking at Kristin Kreuk as much as any guy, but she and Clark and the show all need to MOVE ON! There’s been enough will they/won’t they/You can tell me anything Clark/No, I can’t Lana/ What’s with him anyway/ I wish I was with her episodes to last a lifetime. ENOUGH!
Especialy with everything else that can be explored. Dr. Swan. The evolution of Lex into the villain we all know and love. The manipulations of Lionel. The connection between Jonathan Kent and Jor-El. And so much more.
Notice I didn’t mention Chloe or Pete Ross. There’s a good reason for that, which is that right now I don’t care about either of them! I don’t think it’s either Alison Mack’s or Sam Jones’ fault, either. Neither of their characters are given anything REALLY meaningful to do. Pete can use his truck to save Clark and Perry White? Big deal. It could have been a stranger driving by for as much as he’s been fleshed out as a character, and not a plot device anyone ca fill.
Pete gets the most stilted, Shatner-esque lines. “YOU JUST DON”T STOP, DO YOU?!” was supposed to be dramatic, but almost made me laugh. What is his problem with Lex anyway? He might be jealous a bit, but he didn’t even care at all about the shock treatment, which doesn’t make him exactly heroic. And what about the rift with Clark that grew as a result of his drag racing. It’s like, “Forget it. It’s over. They’re buddies again.” Nothing Pete says or does has any lasting consequences, which makes it difficult to become invested in anything he…well, says or does.
As for Chloe…Well, if she’s really the hard-nosed reporter the writers are trying to portray her as, there is NO WAY she would constantly – and immediately – take grief from everyone and automatically forgive everyone.
Clark constantly treats her like crap, whether he mans to or not? Sure, no problem. This is the only instance where it is even remotely justified, since most of us have done strange things and bit the bulet for someone we loved or were even infatuated with.
But Lana looks at her personal stuff when borrowing her computer, and all is automatically forgiven? That definiteky caled for either A.) a “Dynasty”-esque catfight or, at the very least, a chill in their friendship for a couple of episodes.
And Pete blasts her and insults her as if she were a manipulative whørë, and she makes like Caroline Ingalls at the end?
This is supposed to be a “strong” woman?
Personally, that’s another reason I would like to see Lana heading to see the Eiffel Tower. Maybe the extra oxygen could breathe some life into Pete and Chloe and make them actual characters that we can care about.
But I’ll believe it when I see it, or when I DON’T see Kristin Kreuk name or face in the opening credits.
As for the ending, words cannot describe how perfect it was. Michael Rosenbaum is awesome! Go, Lex, go!
Great Angel episode, but it sure does continue the tradition of Spike and Angel never having consistant accents in the flashbacks. DB started out with a halfway decent Irish accent for a change, then it seemed to come and go… and JM didn’t even seem to be trying to sound British.
Regarding ‘Angel’ – Must have been my sleep-deprived brain, but I kept coming up with ideas for the identity of “The Immortal” just to amuse myself. One thought was “Hmm… An immortal who sleeps with every woman he meets? Connor MacCloud?”
The more ridiculous notion that made me giggle anyway was 007. Think about it: if you put all his films into the same coherent universe, the only way you can write off people accepting the fact that he not only stays young, but looks like different people every few years is to assume that whenever a 007 dies, a new one immediately takes his identity. (Kinda like The Phantom) Which of course would give one the illusion of immortality without going into something like 13 regenerations for 007. Yeah, I know. It’s silly, but that’s the only other “seemingly indestructible, immortal guy who bags all the women” that I could think of.
I’ll… Go and get some rest now and leave you all alone.
Will,
An alternative suggestion is that the Doctor has suddenly become one randy little bûggër. 🙂
Don’t look at me — you’re the one who mentioned regenerations…
TWL
Smallville: The ‘Will she or won’t she’ bit of Lana going to Paris is getting annoying. So is the dragging out of a relationship for her and Clark. I am excited to see what is coming up, particularly with the ‘blonde female stranger’ that comes to take Clark home. And I think Pete and Chloe need more plots to flesh out the characters.
Buffy: Remember on Highlander: The Series how some episodes were more humorous like when Roger Daltry’s Fitz was paired up with Adrian Paul’s Duncan MacLeod? This episode reminded me of that as I watched Plot A with Spike and Angel. Hmm…maybe the Immortal is Duncan or Conner MacLeod? Nah…ladies man skills would be more up Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez’s alley. Plot B was the far more powerful story, though, and I agree with everyone on Ms. Acker’s skills.
> But what saved this episode from descending into pure camp? Wes and Illyria, whom I have been disdainfully referring to as Seven of Fred, but no longer.
Actually, I saw more Seven of Nine in Illyria here than in past weeks, with the bit at the end where Illyria (her voice/Fred’s form), started talking about “wish[ing] to explore it further,” which put me in mind of the one where Kim had a crush on 7.
> However, on a possible plus note: Illyria was able to play Fred perfectly, which Fred may not be as “gone” as she stated in earlier episodes.
I was thinking the same thing – maybe Fred’s still in there (mind & soul), and Illyria was tapping into her to do the Illyfred bit. That was more than fragments whatever happens…
Of course, if that’s true, since there would seem to be no prospect of Fred getting dominance over Illyria, nor of Illyria leaving the body and Fred surviving, maybe she’d be better off dead and gone.
Still, the way they seemed to go “she’s not only dead, but her immortal soul was destroyed” always seemed slightly overdone to me.
First off, I agree with PAD, Lex’s last lines were wonderful. No villain ever sees him or herself as a villain. One of the scariest things I ever read in college world history was the fact that the crew in GErmany actually viewed themselves as the heros of the German race (plus, when they went home at night most of them were no different then any other father returning home from work. We want our villains to be monsters. The frightening part is that sometimes they aren’t).
As for the rest of the episode, I do have to disagree. First PAD is right to say they have dragged the CLark/Lana relationship out ad nausum (sp?). However, I think the writers miss the point of Lana. She does serve a purpose in helping clark become Superman. It has always bothered me that her in a medium that was highly repetitive (the comics) that Lana was even created. And, Yet, as I got older, her pupose become clearer and why writers struggled with her over the years (remember the old fifties comics where her and Lois would fight over who Superman loved more?). I think Lana represents the Penelope to Clark’s Odysseus. Even though the comics force us to be stuck in Clark’s middle phase, in the end (this is why I liked Byrne’s first Generations series where the characters aged in real time)in the end Lana and Clark wind up together after Lois has surved her pupose.
In the sereies the current Clark looks as if he is heading to a major paranoic split. Even though it will work well in creating two identities different from the Calrk of Smallville, I think both will wind up masked.
Lana provides the acceptance he needs to smooth out that transition into Superman. That and the other big distinction between Lana and Lois is that Lana loves the man; Lois loves the super.
I’m sorry I strayed from the episode, but I had to speak my peace about Lana. Peter, thank you for giving out the first reasonable explanation on Pa Kent’s healing. I don’t buy the whole thing because throughout the show Clark has been able to heal himself, quite rapidly, no matter the injury. To me, that was too inconsistent. Look at the beginning of this season, he gets shot with a high caliber kryptonite bullet thorugh his hand and shoulder. Once it is removed, Clark’s body heals itself. Why not now?
For the record the only mention of the Immortal being souless was by Angel in the context of “he may be evil or not,he may have a soul or not”.Which i took as a moment of ironic humor for him to complain about the Immortals’ possible faults considering her relationship with him and Spike.
My only question is can i get a job at the Rome
branch of Wolfram and Hart???The boss there was HOT!!!:)
It should always be remembered that even the greatest villains in the world don
I think it’s too bad that one of the greatest love triangles in T.V history has to end this way. Whether you rooted for Angel or Spike, you have to have hoped Buffy would have ended up with one of them. However,I do realize there might be a movie someday. As for the immortal, I think it would be interesting if it was Vandal Savage, picturing an Angel/Spike Flash team-up or two. Personally I think Buffy probably will go back to Angel If he still wants her. Personally, I was kind of hoping Spike would get over Buffy and go for the italian boss of Wolfram and Hart. That woman was mega hot!
I think it’s too bad that one of the greatest love triangles in T.V history has to end this way. Whether you rooted for Angel or Spike, you have to have hoped Buffy would have ended up with one of them. However,I do realize there might be a movie someday. As for the immortal, I think it would be interesting if it was Vandal Savage, picturing an Angel/Spike Flash team-up or two. Personally I think Buffy probably will go back to Angel If he still wants her. Personally, I was kind of hoping Spike would get over Buffy and go for the italian boss of Wolfram and Hart. That woman was mega hot!
I loved the Angel episode. The Fred/Wes stuff is so painful at times. Alexis Denisoff is incredible at conveying silent grief on his face.
The Angel/Spike stuff was fun. You can really tell David Boreanaz and James Marsters enjoy playing off each other and it was a nice little break after the heavy episodes we’ve had since Smile Time. I miss the DS9/Highlander comedies, so I got a kick out of the two champions being goofy.
I absolutely Hated Angel. The only thing I liked about it (apart from Amy’s performance) is they pretty much spat all over the Buffy Angel ‘shippers.
It’s one thing to have failures and even comedic ones but these guys were totally inept. They were getting foiled by a game of keepaway!
Also whatever happened to the we don’t trust you bit?
“It’s interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. ” oh please! Buffy’s a codependant. She doesn’t move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it’s a coincidence that every guy she’s had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley’s was a TA which means he’s be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she’s had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues
Buffy’s relationship with Spike was never healthy, yet she constantly defended him even after the attepmted rape.
You know what could have made the show work. Put Buffy with xander see how they react.
PAD made the best point when he mentioned that Angelus would never ever let the immortal humiliate him like that. Darla or no Darla.
This episode sucked big time. Although the conversations between Angel and Spike were hilariously funny from time to time the main story was terrible. From day one Buffy never wanted nothing anything more then a normal life. The ending from season seven finally opened up that possibility for her and the first thing she does is boink the first supernatural creature that comes along? come on. I get that she is moving on with her life and that she might have a new boyfriend but could anybody please explain to me why he couldn’t have been regular guy? The effect on Angel and Spike wouldn’t have been any different. Besides Buffy takes relationships rather seriously and has shown in the past not have a high regard for womanizers. And although we do not know alot about the immortal it is clear that he sleeps around alot. From the comment Andrew made about her loving both you can conclude that she knows about Spike being back yet she doesn’t come and see him or even give a call? Everything is so out of charachter lately that i realy think it is time to put a end to it before it gets any worse. I know SMG wasn’t available for the role but i’d rather have this Buffy/Angel/Spike relationship unresolved then blowing it of like this.
From the Italians standpoint this certainly wasn’t very flattering. For the record i am Dutch myself. One of the things that i liked about the shows was that it tried to eliminate prejudice. this one did the exact opposite.
As commented before the only saving grace of the episode where the Fred/Wesley scenes that were great.
This episode sucked big time. Although the conversations between Angel and Spike were hilariously funny from time to time the main story was terrible. From day one Buffy never wanted nothing anything more then a normal life. The ending from season seven finally opened up that possibility for her and the first thing she does is boink the first supernatural creature that comes along? come on. I get that she is moving on with her life and that she might have a new boyfriend but could anybody please explain to me why he couldn’t have been regular guy? The effect on Angel and Spike wouldn’t have been any different. Besides Buffy takes relationships rather seriously and has shown in the past not have a high regard for womanizers. And although we do not know alot about the immortal it is clear that he sleeps around alot. From the comment Andrew made about her loving both you can conclude that she knows about Spike being back yet she doesn’t come and see him or even give a call? Everything is so out of charachter lately that i realy think it is time to put a end to it before it gets any worse. I know SMG wasn’t available for the role but i’d rather have this Buffy/Angel/Spike relationship unresolved then blowing it of like this.
From the Italians standpoint this certainly wasn’t very flattering. For the record i am Dutch myself. One of the things that i liked about the shows was that it tried to eliminate prejudice. this one did the exact opposite.
As commented before the only saving grace of the episode where the Fred/Wesley scenes that were great.
I guess I’m the only one who’s ah[[y that Buffy wasn’t actually in it. I’ve always found the character way too self righteous and she plays the victim far too much, even more so whenever she appears on Angel. Buffy is probable my second least favourite JW character, behind only Kennedy.
For a while there, I thought the Immortal referred to Dracula, although it seems pretty clear it isn’t (tho t’would have been a nice twist).
Just as an aside, anyone interested in a short, post-season 7 Buffy/Dracula story should check out the fourth issue of Dark Horse’s recently-completed Tales of the Vampires mini-series. Heck…check out the whole thing. (So far, my personal favorite story is Ben Edlund’s closing chapter to #4.)
Ron,
Get a grip, will you please? I’m half Italian (father’s side) and I found the scenes in Italy to be pretty funny. It might actually help if you stated what you found so offensive.
This is the same kind of oversensitivity that has people crying “victim” over the “stereotypical” portrayal of Italians in “The Sopranos”, which I enjoy personally, and so does every other Italian I know. They think it’s a lot of fun.
Of course, if you’re determined to find prejudice in something, you undoubtedly will. Just don’t think the objects of your concern share it or even need it.
Oh, yeah, count me as yet another voice screaming that the Italian mama was absolutely, incredibly HOT!
Jerome,
I wouldn’t say that the Italian scenes were offensive, but I found most of them way too over-the-top to be funny. The “gypsies” line was a prominent exception, but it was very much an exception and not the rule.
Different senses of humor, I guess.
(I also don’t get the “that boss was hot!” mantra that’s being repeated all over the place: falling out of her dress, yes, “hot” not especially.)
TWL
What I don’t like is that instead of saying “Grr, arrgh” that little demon says “Hi, I’m Alexis Bledel – Watch Gilmore Girls!”
And why is Andrew straight now? That’s just dumb.
RK
There is a thing called bisexuality. But just going off Andrew’s devout adoration to Warren…I don’t think that makes him gay. Just very very attached. Very very needy.
Contrary to popular opinion I enjoyed all of last weeks’s Angel. The “A” plot was supposed to be a Whedonverse version of a farce and it accomplished that beautifully. From the Italian Wolfram & Hart CEO’s over the top mannerisms to the scene with Angel and SPike chasing the sports car on a moped, I cracked up at all of it.
As for Buffy’s relationship with the Immortal, I wasn’t too bothered by it. Taking just the information that was given to us in the episode we can safely assume that the immortal is incredibly well liked by human and demon both and his previous dealings with Spike and Angel were when they were souless monsters which more than likely made him the “good guy”.
Besides Andrew stated they were just dating and that Buffy wasn’t in love with the guy so its not a serious relationship, just Buffy having fun.
Maybe nobody mentioned this because it’s so incredibly obvious but I don’t think that Andrew’s whole monologue about letting it go and moving on was really from Andrew to Angel and Spike….
As for Andrew getting “straightened” out, I can speak as a straight man who is treated constantly like a gay man that beautiful women *love* their gay male friends and they’ve even very touchy-feely together. Maybe what we were seeing was the beginning of a “Girls’ Night Out.”
On the other hand, the point of Andrew’s speech was that people can change so another possibility is that Andrew was providing the proof in more ways than putting on a tux.
Last, I was also disappointed by the idea of Buffy getting into a relationship with another bad guy. (And the Immortal, while supposedly charming was no doubt a bad guy…) I don’t think that it *has* been established that Buffy needs a little monster in her man. I think that was from a season where Buffy was going through a stage of low self-esteem and self-punishment. I think it might have been more effective (and even more crushing to their male egos) if Buffy hooked up with someone like Superman (substitute Clark from “Smallville” for you non-comics types…)or Captain America. Someone as legendarily good as Angelus was bad. Think of the jealousy, the shame and the mixed feelings that Spike and Angel would have from wishing an end to Buffy’s relationship with a man who was clearly better than they are.
I had no problem with Angel and Spike’s impotency as heroes… that’s the power of women for you.
jasonk posted:
“”It’s interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. ” oh please! Buffy’s a codependant. She doesn’t move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it’s a coincidence that every guy she’s had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley’s was a TA which means he’s be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she’s had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues”
Well, let’s see: Hank Summers seriously became an absentee father after his divorce from Joyce, her first watcher (from the movie) was somewhat brusque and ended up being killed rather quickly, Giles betrayed her more than once, and most of the other male authority figures in her life have turned out to be either evil (the Mayor, “Ted”) or at the least, weasels (Principal Snyder).
Any wonder she might have father issues and thus seek out older men?
“”It’s interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. ” oh please! Buffy’s a codependant. She doesn’t move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it’s a coincidence that every guy she’s had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley’s was a TA which means he’s be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she’s had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues”
See, I’d always viewed Buffy as more of a Borderline personality, drawing people in and then defenses coming up, pushing them away while pining for them.
“”It’s interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. ” oh please! Buffy’s a codependant. She doesn’t move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it’s a coincidence that every guy she’s had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley’s was a TA which means he’s be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she’s had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues”
I have to agree with that sentiment. Buffy consistantly goes for the daddy-figure in nearly every guy she’s hooked up with.
Oh, and someone please shoot the guy who came up with the “fresh” line. It’s gotten really stale, really fast.
I didn’t read every comment, so forgive me if someone else made this analogy:
Watching Angel and Spike get trounced at every turn reminded me of the Bugs Bunny episodes where he was on the receiving end of someone else’s wit, like Cecil the Turtle or the Gremlin. I didn’t like it as a kid, but I understand it more now. There’s always a faster draw.
Mr. David has commented upon how the few Buffy characters that have been mentioned during this season of Angel seem to be acting out of character in the past. I think we should not be trying to look at Buffy’s behaviour in this episode and trying to analyze it, but rather regard it as simply poor story telling.
I had made the early comment that this story “cheapened” Buffy. I should clarify that I did not mean this in any sexual terms, but rather as a caring individual, traits that I believe she has aptly demonstrated. While I accept the very slim possiblity that she may have no idea that Spike is alive, it wouldn’t be the first time information has been kept from her for ‘her own good’, I have always had problems with the “we don’t trust you” explanation for her complete lack of contact with Angel.
She wouldn’t cut off a person that she cared about because of them going ‘evil’. Her behaviour with Willow in Season Six and Angelus in Season Two demonstrates this. At least she wouldn’t in her own series.
I believe this represents a tendency among the writers of Buffy/Angel to minimize/brutalize the characters that remain perpetually off screen. The one time that I can remember seeing Hank Summers on screen, at the beginning of Season Two, he seemed to be an individual who truly loved his daughter and was attempting to overcompensate for his absense with material goods. Later, when the need to prevent his return to seek custody of his ‘second’ daughter, Dawn, which would have complicated the Glory storyline needlessly, his character shifted into it’s final womanizing, uncaring state.
It sounds like Buffy has followed in her father’s footsteps via writers manipulation.
I assume that this episode is going to have ramifications over the last two of this season and the elimination of Buffy from both Angel and Spike’s aspirations/hopes will probably bear very strongly in the outcome of this storyline.