It’s always interesting to me how fans seek out precedents for things. It’s almost as if the crafting of stories is a huge “Where’s Waldo” to them as they try to determine where they’ve seen things in order to catch the writer out at something. I said in an earlier posting that fans don’t understand the concept of ideas, and that put some folks’ noses out of joint, but it remains true. One fan recently dismissed “Alias” claiming he doesn’t watch it because he watched it back when it was called “La Femme Nikita,” apparently thinking that since both series involve espionage and females, they were identical. Which, of course, is like dismissing “La Femme Nikita” as a knock-off of “The Avengers” or “Modesty Blaise.”
Currently fans are perceiving parallels in “Supergirl” to “Kingdom Come.” Truth time: With all deference to Mark Waid, a wonderful writer, I barely remember anything of the plot of KC. If anything, I was riffing “Terminator” (the methodical annihilation of females with the same name in order to eliminate a threat they pose in the future) and “A Tale of Two Cities” (with a lookalike substituting herself for another, doomed lookalike), with a dash of “Buffy” thrown in (evil master villain imprisoned and hoping cute blonde provides means of escape) for the long-time fans who apparently thought every issue was lifted from Joss Whedon.
Then again, I suppose it’s only fair. When “Kingdom Come” came out, as I recall fans claimed that certain sequences in KC were direct rip-offs of “The Last Avengers Story,” written by yours truly. So it comes full circle.
PAD
• 
Just wanted the first comment ! I son’t have anything intelligent to say, except that I agree with you about all the people who make sweeping inclusions, placing Buffy with Xena.
The fact that they do not let the creators expand beyond the basic premise of their original (or not) idea show what short minded people they really are.
Yossi
(I don’t watch Alias because I saw Run Lola Run – and it’s basically the same)
This topic is moot anyway. We all know all ideas come from the 1 million monkeys typing at random. Hëll, if given enough time they can type Shakespear, right. Why not a script from Buffy, or an issue of Supergirl. Think about it. Now be very, very frightened. 🙂
Most people that aren’t writers don’t comprehend what goes into the process. They see something that looks familair to them and they automatically think the writer, creator, whatever stole the idea. Sure, we’re all inspired by other movies, comics, books, etc, but that doesn’t mean we’re ripping off other things.
ALIAS is one of the most beautifully crafted shows on TV right now. Last night’s episode was mind-boggling good. Wow.
well, not to be pessimistic, but their is this saying that claims that there are no new ideas, only new takes on ideas.
for the most part I find this true, but occasionally I find my self surprised.
(which is why I like PAD’s stories and Buffy)
I think a lot of people believe this saying to be immutable which I think is why they seem to look so hard for the precedent.
Hearing about such misguided thinking makes me glad that I don’t worry about “seeing” such parallels, and just enjoy a story on it’s own merits.
PAD –
You know what I say?
Screw ’em.
I see parallels all the time but generally because a minute situation here reminds me of a minute situation there, not because someone ripped off anything or anybody. (If they did it is usually obvious.) There are too many people comparing apples and oranges and calling them all apples or all oranges.
I find if I see a remote tie to somewhere else then that is the writer’s / artist’s way of paying homage to something they feel was particulary well written, acted, drawn, or however other creativly made. It is so tiresome to see fans pick something apart to the point where it is not fun to watch or read.
Opinions are like a certain part of the anatomy, we all have one and that is mine.
The following is in no way a slam against Peter David, whom I think is one of the best writers in comics, but I’ve been looking for a place to explain why I don’t buy Supergirl even though she’s a favorite character and why I think the numbers are low (though none of this will probably be new to you…)
When DC passed the edict that Superman be the ONLY survivor of Krypton, they doomed any spin off Super-character to failure.
I have no doubt that Supergirl is incredibly well written, but it isn’t Supergirl. She may be a great character, but Supergirl is from Argo City (and Superboy is a young Superman). The execution may be flawless, but the concept is shot. Supergirl doesn’t have telekinesis or fire wings, nor is she an Earth angel. She is Kara Zor-El. Period. So I won’t buy the book. Period.
Or not so period because of the Kara storyline which I picked up this weekend. Okay, I get that this Kara is from a parrallel universe, but not only is it Kara, it is the BEST, bar-none, rendition to date. Kara’s innocence is made even better being in an (in-innocent?) experienced age. Peter makes it even better by not making her the Point of View character. We never see her ‘hidden’ powers displayed (no shots of x-ray vision, just her using it) nor get into her thoughts other than how she acts on them. I’m impressed that Peter figured out why Kara can’t carry her own title without having a POV character (though I shouldn’t be, since he’s used Rick Jones that way so well in the past and present). If she were to stick around and Linda were to become, I don’t know Ultragirl or something, I’d be in it for the long hall (well, maybe not, the cheesecake of underage girls and, for that matter, of-age girls is a bit much for my taste, but I suppose it sells…)
If nothing else, we get 4 or 5 issues of the real Kara done superbly. That’s something.
Innocent Supergirl is just a copy of Mary Marvel, the original girl super-heroine. Kara is just a copy. (you like the innocent little girl? Tell me about your relationship with your mother… ) 🙂
BTW I never would have picked up a supergirl comic in the past if it were pre-crisis Supergirl. I never thought she was that interesting. Earth angel SG is far more interesting than Kara ever was.
To the Alias naysayers: If you’re not watching Alias, well…you’e a knucklehead. There’s really no other way to say it. It’s the best hour of television you’ll see all week. It’s the Buffy killer. And it’s not nearly as difficult to understand as people would have you believe. Watch it. Now. Obey.
I seem to be the only person with reservations about last night’s episode of Alias. Everywhere else, I see people going on about how great an episode it was. Personally, while I enjoyed the episode, it also worries me.
Spoilers ahead….
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
For one, the Alliance went down way too easy, IMO, regardless of the “help” they were given. It was constantly driven into our heads about how far-reaching their power was. To be completely taken out in one night seems a little much. Secondly, they did the same “kill off all the baddies except a couple” thing in the X-Files, and I can easily cite that episode as the point in which the series went downhill.
Maybe I’m just being pessimistic, but I worry about where they’re going to go from here.
Regardless of any of this, I would hardly call Alias “the Buffy killer.” They’re both good shows in their own way, and Alias’ creator has publically said that Buffy is part of what made his own show possible.
I don’t see much substance on these weird ad hominem attacks about you ripping off someone else’s work. I am more interested in why your writing seems to be “hitting so hard” lately. It has been very, very effective and moving. Is this a maturation? or you just been eating your wheaties? whadevah, keep it up.
Linda put herself in Kal’s league when she got in that ship. That is something that writers have a tough time driving home–the hero in the super hero.
Personally, I think this last run will be considered a classic run and I am betting–maybe wish fulfillment–that you’ll have an opportunity to revisit this story.
You know a wise person once said there is nothing new under the sun. That was Written several Hundred years ago and still true. Everything idea comes from another idea. There will be Tv, shows comics with similar idea.
I must be a knucklehead. I don’t want Alias. I never have and nor do I plan on watching it ever. I like Jennifer Garner. The show has never looked Interesting to me. I know i’m a minorty among young men my age. It seems like they all watching Alias Oh well.
Actually, the similarities are with the “Kingdom” miniseries not the “Kingdom Come” miniseries by Waid and Alex Ross. “Kingdom” followed the popular “Kingdom Come” by basically undoing the Crisis and using “hypertime” to reinstate the infinite universes where DC stories take place. I loved “Kingdom Come” and I hated “Kingdom.”
On a completely different note, I wonder whether the cancellation of PAD’s Supergirl was preordained? I note that at the end of the Superman 10 Cent Adventure a new “Supergirl” (Cir-el) is introduced. Since DC cancelled the book before any bump in ordering could take place, it seems to me that they decided it didn’t matter how well it sold, they needed the “Supergirl” label for a different character.
As one of the folks (or possibly the only folk) whose nose was put out of joint by the “fans don’t understand ideas” comment, I feel like I keep on being misconstrued and have to post again to clarify.
To wit: Look here at the responses to this entry, by people such as Xyon. He seems to know about ideas, and I’d like to think I do too.
My only objection to the comment is that you couldn’t have just put a “most” or a “some” in front of it. Just an acknowledgement that maybe, just maybe, there are some fans out here who do “get it.” That’s all I want. That’s it.
Okay… *that* and to have sex with Jennifer Garner. That’s it. That’s all I want.
I too would like to have sex with Jennifer Garner! (Whoa! I’m really off-topic.)
Anyway, I agree that it is hard to come up with an original idea in comics, but as long as the execution is done right, I’ll keep reading.
By the way, this whole discussion of how writers come up with their ideas reminds me of an old episode of the Monkees where Mickey Dolenz (sp?) objects to an item in the script and goes for a walk behind the scenes. There we see a grimy looking task master with a BF whip standing over a bunch of oriental immigrants, who are slaving over typewriters. The poor guys type up something quickly, that the Monkees dismiss anyway!
So now you know how DC gets their ideas!
There is a difference between setting a new twist on a plot and simply transplanting a plot into a new area. Example: The Fast and the Furious was, in my opinion, blatantly ripping off Point Break –which wasn’t that good anyway. On the other hand, the classical journey through the underworld has been redone as The Divine Comedy,Heart of Darkness, Apocalypse Now, What Dreams May Come,etc., and they always seemed fresh,a t least to me.
THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS was a remake of a very old (by now, anyway) Roger Corman movie. Decidedly older than POINT BREAK. I’m not defending the movie, but I find it fascinating that a remake would be accused of ripping off an unrelated movie rather than its original version. I think it says less about the originality of ideas than the lack of cultural memory, a frequent Harlan Ellison complaint.
Isn’t there only a half-dozen distinct plots anyway? So at this point it’s all a rehash and presentation. It’s a moot point.
I never saw Alias until last night. I found it pretty laughable, actually. “I can’t show others how I feel about you!” I was rolling on the floor. Maybe that’s due to lack of prior involvement.
About the only show that I consider a must-watch these days is “24” and maybe “West Wing”.
Waid was doing a store signing with us around the time of KC # 1 and we were talking about the biblical stuff in issue one and someone says that’s where he got his ideas. Then, in a classic comedic rant, Mark says,
“That’s right. I didn’t rip off Twilight or Squadron Supreme. I ripped off THE BIBLE.”
Wow, to think, I was the source that started PAD thinking about this column. That’s kind of cool.
I’m glad that others have echoed in these responses that they enjoy Alias. My whole point in bringing up Alias in the newsgroup was to try to drum up some support. I figured that since this is probably the last season of Buffy, if Buffy fans were looking for a woman who kicks major butt, they don’t have to look much further than Sydney Bristow.
I brought this up because I’ve heard that the ratings for Alias are just fair. It seems like Alias is a pretty expensive show to produce. It seems like it’s the kind of show that would have fair ratings but could be canceled by the network for reasons of “the fair ratings weren’t enough to outweigh the cost of the show.” This isn’t to say that I think the show is going to be canceled. I haven’t heard that anywhere, but I have a certain paranoid streak so I want to try to drum up all the support I can. I brough up the subject of Alias in the hope that new viewers would watch it and make it their “Must See TV” like I have.
Just a word of warning. I have a major crush on Jennifer Garner. You can become an Alias fan, but she’s all mine! That whole Scott Foley marriage thing is just her waiting for me.
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Rob ignorantly said: “I have no doubt that Supergirl is incredibly well written, but it isn’t Supergirl.”
Yes, she is. And you don’t know otherwise, ’cause you’ve NEVER READ IT.
KET
I would be shocked if I was the fan that Peter was referring to, but I did dismiss Alias as La Femme Nikita-lite on another comics message board. I don’t really have a problem with Alias (although I watched the first episode and didn’t care for it); it’s just that every time I see a commercial for Alias, it makes me miss La Femme Nikita more. I truly enjoyed that series and think it was superior to Alias (from what I’ve seen.) Broadcast on a cable station, La Femme Nikita did not have to worry about network censors and could push the envelope farther.
This reminds me of those rare occurances when I have a clever thought or joke, and say it out loud, someone will ask “What’s that from?”, as if I’m not smart enough to think up my own jokes.
Granted, 90% of the things I say are lines from “The Simpsons”, so I guess I can’t blame them…
Tom wrote: “reminds me of an old episode of the Monkees where Mickey Dolenz (sp?) objects to an item in the script and goes for a walk behind the scenes. There we see a grimy looking task master with a BF whip standing over a bunch of oriental immigrants, who are slaving over typewriters.”
Ah, so THAT’S where Mr. Show stole that idea from. 🙂
KET,
While you may have a point about the “ignorantly” remark, my point is that anyone with the Super-prefix must be Kryptonian. Unless you’re telling me that by reading it I’ll discover she IS Kryptonian, then reading it isn’t going to change my mind about whether she’s Supergirl or not. I don’t embrace this new Superboy, either. It’s a personal quirk (that I suspect is shared by many), it may even be a stupid quirk, but it IS my quirk (our quirk?). Quirk: wasn’t that a television series???
Re: my screw-up on Fast and the Furious
That was a screw-up on my part. I apologize for that. I guess it could be worse, like Britney Spears mistaking Pat Benatar as the original artist on “I love Rock n’ Roll”….
I think it is great you are saying your referances and marking them to get rid of the rumor and the “maybe this” or “copy that” etc…
I am sad to see Supergirl go. She’s one of my favorite characters. I mean, what other character has had so many clones ( not counting the Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider crud)? Let’s see, there was 1) the original pre-crisis Supergirl 2)Laurel Gand/Andromeda from LSH 3)Matrix/Supergirl from the “pocket” universe 4)Power Girl, the Kara Zor-L from Earth 2 5) Non-Earth Angel Linda Danvers 6) Suprema from Rob Liefeld and finally 7) the other Kara Zor-El.
See ya, Kara.
It’s been said that all story possibilites were exhausted long ago, and therefore there’s nothing totally new to write in modern literature.
Even if that’s true, so what? There are many paintings that present reality in a different light, in an effort to change people’s perceptions of it.
So paint with your own brush, PAD, and try to change people’s perceptions a little. Those who miss it aren’t seeing the painted forest for the trees.
Kingdom Come came out 5 months after The Last Avengers Story. I don’t think Alex Ross had time to rip it off, get the project greenlighted and solicited, have it written & painted and released that soon.
Maybe you mean Kingdom. I don’t know, as I ‘hypertimed’ that out of my personal collection.
yeah, as always PAD has a good point and a good case about it.
The reason behind it MIGHT BE that are a lot of hacks passing as writers out there. I mean, if i
Re: my screw-up on Fast and the Furious
That was a screw-up on my part. I apologize for that. I guess it could be worse, like Britney Spears mistaking Pat Benatar as the original artist on “I love Rock n’ Roll”….
Actually, I don’t know how much the Fast & Furious publicity noted the Corman original, so that mistake is probably understandable. At least, more so than Britney’s bøøbøø …