Everytime I see that word, all I can hear is the exchange in “Mystery Men.” You know: “We’ve always been each other’s greatest nemesisi…nemesises…neme…” “Nemeses.”
So anyway, just came back from “ST:N.” Thing is, I keep hearing that folks went to see it with lots of expectations and came away disappointed. Consequently, I went into it with no expectations and lots of negative buzz in my ear, and came away pretty much satisfied by it. Yes, there were elements of “Wrath of Khan” in the second half. Then again, “WOK” was an open rehash of “Moby Ðìçk,” so I didn’t have much problem with that. And there was lots of stuff I did like, including Riker finally getting to kick some butt, the performances of Ron Perlman and Tom Hardy, and the way all the regulars fit into their Trek personas like comfortable shoes.
And I *thought* I spotted Wesley Crusher at screen left during the wedding toast.
Personally, the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident…I wouldn’t mind seeing that at all.
PAD
• 
As one person I know said….the worst of Star Trek is still better than a lot of stuff out there.
I’ve always wanted to see some X-rated Trek too. Oh, those weren’t the adventures of Troi and Riker you were referring to?
It was wes there on the left. He even had a speaking part at one point but it was cut before the final version. I went in with the same negitive reports and and was enjoyed it. Not the best st film but much better then insurection.
Spoiler below
I kidna wish they had gone throug hwith the kahn ending, it would have wrapped up tng nicley.
I can’t really picture Picard shouting, “SHINZONNNNN!!!” into a communicator. Riker, yes. Picard, no. *g*
Definitely nothing wrong with Nemesis.
I think at this point the fans are too busy chanting for Berman and Piller’s heads to really enjoy anything that they come up with anymore.
But its definitely the “too many cooks” scenario with Trek. Cause not only do we have Berman and Piller running the franchise, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner are getting too much clout and making sure every A & B plot of the movies revolve round them.
Forgetting that the every ST series generally works because they make sure EVERYONE gets a turn at the A plot.
There’s a simple way to do that in the movies. TOS got it right with Voyage Home. And all TNG ever had to do was have Q kidnap the main crew and send them off on their own adventure and everyone would have a moment.
Right now they’ve got a great setup for Trek 11 with Riker and crew on the Titan. And I am utterly convinced Frakes did that great fight scene with Perleman as a thank you for directing the last two movies. Plus he grew the beard back, the real reason Insurrection flopped. 🙂
With Spiner and Stewart not in the next one, a need for them to command the storyline isn’t there so it should give others plenty to do. Specially if any Voyager or DS9 members join the crew.
I think “Insurrection” was the BEST of the TNG movies. As I’m forced to justify my decision with every movie-goer that’s seen both films, let me just skip ahead and say why here.
“Insurrection” has “the big themes” that Star Trek built it’s house on. What does “Nemesis” have in that regard? ST9 dealt with disenfranchisement, forced relocation, ethnic cleansing…ST10 hinted about such things but it was really more about action.
Therefore, “Nemesis” is a much better movie for general audiences in my view, but “Insurrection” is a much better STAR TREK film.
I havent typed a single word about Nemesis since I saw it opening weekend.
honestly, ten seconds into the credits my cell phone rang. I turned it off embarrassed that i was inconsiderate enough to have left it on.
after that i couldn’t get into the film. I think that actually says alot about it. it felt like the story took place in about a day
it was not the large adventure that any action film should be. star trek or not.
I mean the whole story was
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I dont think i really expected too much. just a story that left me feeling like i got the whole story.
I liked all the crew-relationship scenes though
-THE BARON
As a very casual Trek fan (caught a lot of Next Generation, some DS9 and about an episode of Voyager) I had to say that while it dragged in places NEMESIS was a very satisfying film. If this is, in fact, the last NEXT GEN film it wrapped things up nicely. There was a lot of “action” Picard, the death of the beloved character was played out nicely with you guessing who it would be and the red herrings left along the way and the wedding scene was a real treat.
And, as much as my fiance gave me the “what in the name of God is wrong with you” look, Dina Meyer made a very sexy Romulan, if such a thing is possible.
I had forgotten that line form Mystery Men, and now wonder if Buffy was referrring to it in “Conversations With Dead People.”
From waht I’ve heeard, that was indeed Wil Wheaton, and apparently he did get to say something (and maybe tell us why he was in uniform) in scenes now lurking in a DVD-making shop somewhere.
I’d also love to see the further adventures of Mrs and Mr Troi, and nominate PAD to do the job, should he choose to.
There is something about expectation sets. I think the only films I’ve seen of late that I went in with high expectations were Lilo and Stitch and Minority Report. Everything else, either the critics, the previous effort in the series, or word of mouth left me thinking “this may stink.” And I enjoyed all of these films except for the rather balnd Blood Work. I suppose this is a cynical way to enter theaters, but I’d rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed any day.
“…the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident?”
PAD, you GOTTA get some more sleep. Won’t Shelby and Mueller be a bit put out by Riker and Troi? Especially after “Double or Nothing.” Leave Riker and Troi on the Titan, and leave poor Shelby alone. You give her enough headaches without adding Riker and Troi.
J.
Well, I haven’t seen the film yet, but it sounds interesting that Riker and Troi wind up on Shelby’s ship… (As per the New Frontier novels, for anyone who doesn’t read them.)
Just to clear something up;
Riker and Troi are taking over the U.S.S. Titan, not the Trident from NF. I don’t think Shelby will have to deal with this particular headache. 🙂
MJC
I went to see “Star Trek: Nemesis” with absolutely no knowledge of the film. I avoided spoilers and reviews alike, ignored all word of mouth, and just hoped to enjoy it.
And, y’know, I did. Very much.
It’s not the best of the Trek films by any measure of the term. It’s not the most original, and it failed to impact me as emotionally as it could have – seeing as it is effectively the TNG crew’s swan song. But it was an enjoyable two hours of film, the effects were up to the usual Trek standard, and I for one very much appreciated the effort put into trying to do something different with it.
It was the best Trek movie done in nearly a decade. It had, what the last three did not, A Story.
I’ve been hearing rumors, and curious… I don’t like Star Trek in movies, but… did Data really… y’know…?
In the end, I didn’t like it as much as I did as, say, ST6.
There isn’t too much of a real hard story/plot in the movie. And the resolution is based on luck. (As with the resolutions to Generations, First Contact, and Insurrection.)
The biggest problem with TNG movies is that the big menace is created just for that movie. (Excluding the Borg, of course.)
There are a few villains, but not many, from the TNG series that could be brought back for a movie. Remember the wierd alien worms that came out of the decapitated Starfleet officer?What about the alien race from the first 2 seasons of Voyager, or even the insect-like creature the Borg couldn’t assimilate?
And for once — just once — why can’t the Enterprise just kick ášš in the first volley. I mean come one, Scotty didn’t let the villlains first shot disable the warp engine! Geordi certainly isn’t doing a very good job if that happens to him every. single. time.
No offense, but how can an accomplished writer enjoy Nemesis? It didn’t make any sense, it was bad editing, bad direction and I can only assume a decent script was destroyed in production.
Riker and Troi tie the knot at the beginning. That’s it, nothing else about it (this isn’t a series for it develop later).
Troi gets mind-raped by Shinzon — Why? Other than giving her a door to get a headache at the Remen, what was the motivation?
Shinzon is made by Romulons, totured by Romulons, imprisoned by Romulons, but wants to blow up Earth? Huh?
Data can be tracked over lightyears? They don’t question putting together someone who could be Lore? They don’t question the natives that presumably tore him up and had reason to prevent them from putting it back together?
Picard watches his clone get impaled and stands there instead of doing something?
They can’t use shuttle transporters to retrieve Data?
I went in WANTING to like it. I’m not a huge STNG fan, but I am a story fan.
This was written like poor fan fiction.
Right. Obviously, I meant Riker and Troi on the Titan.
Y’know, since chronologically it takes place after the current TV series, they could call the film “Titan A.E. (After Enterprise.)”
PAD
I enjoyed it as well. Wrath of Kahn and Nemesis are my top 2 Star Trek movies.
I would LOVE to see another film with Riker and Troi or a series of books about them. I loved the Imzadi books. I am tired of stories revolving around Picard and Data, let’s get Riker something meaningful to do.
How about having Ro Laren be his Number One? Just a thought…..
When are you getting started PAD? 🙂
My overall reaction to the movie was that it was alright. As the last adventure of the NG crew, it was disappointing, considering there was so little of the crew beyond Picard and Data involved with the story. That and the shipboard firefights (and Riker’s fistfight) bored me. Just something about the pacing or direction made them seem to drag on needlessly. Especially the firefight aboard the Scimitar where Picard is cutting down hordes of Remans while none of them can land a shot just seems over-the-top. (As my friend quipped during that scene “Apparently the were bred for war, but not accuracy.”) Basically, the action scenes could have been either written/directed better to make them actually engaging or else reduced in time to give some of the neglected crew members a chance to shine.
That said, the ship to ship combat was cool, though the pounding the Enterprise took seemed like it should have destroyed the ship twice over. I do have to wonder about the fact that everytime Troi takes the helm, the ship crashes, though.:)
I have to say that I have enjoyed all the TNG movies so far.
I just can’t help but feel though they are just full length episodes of the series.
I guess the reason being that as much as I like the orignal series the follow up movies seemed to raise the bar as far as developing the characters and storylines while TNG seems to follow on the same path as the TV show.
The movies are very entertaing, I did kinda hope though that….
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B4 would assume Data’s memorys and personality at the end of the movie and it would be clear that Data still lived rather than the vague hint.
The idea of a Riker and Troi movie doesn’t appeal to me.
I’m not sure how they would work it but I would rather see a DS9 movie than a Voyager movie if they have to choose between which series to make a movie of next.
Personally i thought the movie was fun, you don’t go to see a trek movie w/ your guide to the enterprise and spec pages. It was a little dark in filming but thats been consistant with the last few films. My personal kick was explaining to the fiancee what an Imzadi was.(btw PAD you gotta follow up w/ Imzadi3 she wants to read the 1st 2 now)
-erick
Riker and Troi on the Titan? I smell a PAD-written novel series! 🙂
Rich
This was an OK film for non-Trekkers, but a horrible one for fans of continuity.
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Why was Wesley in a Starfleet uniform?
What was Worf DOING on the Enterprise in the first place? He’s an ambassador now!
Why is the Enterprise back to using mere photon torpedoes instead of quantum torpedoes?
If a deactivated android’s positronic signature can be detected on a planet light years away, why doesn’t Data’s active positronic signature flash-fry everyone in a two-mile radius?
Why no mention of Lore (did his body get destroyed on the Enterprise-D?), or even the possibility that Data did another time-jump thing like in “Time’s Arrow” (gee, Data, your head is now 500 years older than your body, but it still works perfectly)?
When they go to Romulus, couldn’t someone at least have speculated on Ambassador Spock’s whereabouts?
[sarcasm]
Y’know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles…and isn’t it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]
Personally i t hought it wa the bets TNG film I’d seen. The best Trek film…well that goes to WOK or Voyage Home. I was a little disapointed to not see the Titan, even more so that the Crusher’s seemed to have ended up on the cutting-room floor more then anything. Yeah, I dislike Wesley as much as the next person, considering they had him off with the Traveller be intreasting to know how they got a message to him (I felt they were getting married through the force??)
Was supposed to be a big B-plot with Dr. Crusher wondering if she should stay on ship or leave to go back to Star Fleet Medical. Think there was a snippet of Troi asking her if she’d made up her mind yet but that was all.
And with B4 around, no Data ain’t..ya know…of course if they want his original body they’ll have to go through the Neutreal Zone with a fine tooth comb and search for pieces. Course #11 is going to be “B4: The Explination” after all, they never say how they got áhøld of him.
“I just can’t help but feel though they are just full length episodes of the series. I guess the reason being that as much as I like the orignal series the follow up movies seemed to raise the bar as far as developing the characters and storylines while TNG seems to follow on the same path as the TV show.”
Well yes. I do not intend to insult the quality of the original Star Trek, but it was what it was. The show aired in 1966, and obviously it had to go through a major upgrade when the Motion Picture and its sequels came out during the 1980s. On the other hand, TNG doesn’t require such an obvious “upgrade,” since the quality of the show is already better. TNG also told stories during its run that were bigger and more cinematic. Therefore, it is not surprising to me that the line between TV show and movie is a bit less obvious. What cinematic upgrade is really necessary? They got a new ship, they got new uniforms. And they are dealing with very large and complex issues that wouldn’t have been as easy to do on the show (First Contact for sure, though much that ground has been covered over the course of the various series . . . and I don’t care what everyone says about Insurrection, it dealt with a very complicated series of ideas that would probably have been overwhelming story-wise *and* budget-wise for one of the TV episodes).
I tend to feel that any of the four TNG films could have been used as TOS films, and the complaints we’re hearing now wouldn’t have existed.
Personally I was very pleased with Nemesis. The problem I personally have with much of Star Trek (DS9 definitely excluded from this) is that it tends to be episodic in the sense that continuity between shows in minimal. Nemesis is at its best when it deals with the characters and their ongoing storylines. So as far as “episodeness” goes, I don’t see the argument.
As for the “Why is Worf there” thing, I just assumed he was Picard’s hardass new First Officer. If Jean-Luc asked him to re-enlist, Worf would drop the Ambassador bit no prob.
[sarcasm]Y’know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles…and isn’t it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]
21st century Earth is also a “pre-warp society,” you know…
Peter…Honey,
You need to get some sleep.
Kath
Actually, Data was Picard’s new first officer. I heard a deleted scene would have introduced Picard’s second new number one at the end, but for my money it would have made more sense to give that job to Worf.
Wasn’t Lore disassembled in TNG’s final season? So, there was no way the android they found could have been Lore. Granted, given their track record with androids that weren’t Data, I would have suggested just leaving it there.
I think a Riker, Captain of the Trident, would make an interesting Comic Book Series. I also think you writing it would be very cool.
Rob’s posting (“No offense, but how can an accomplished writer enjoy Nemesis?“) summed up my objections to Trek X nicely.
Other bits of broken continutity not mentioned yet include the fact that Picard was not bald a young man- several episodes, including the excellent “Tapestry” have shown him to have had hair when he was younger. It is possible that Shinzon shaved his head, but then what’s up with the photo that Picard shows to Crusher of himself in an Academy uniform with no hair? Was he the victim of a particularly humiliating hazing?
As to the personal emergency transporter that Data slaps on Picard at the last moment, it’s said in the movie that it’s a prototype and there’s only one, but thanks to DVD, we can all see personal emergency transporter devices in used my multiple members of the crew in the 6th season episode “Timescape”.
Are these nit-picky Trekkie complaints? Sure, but if you make a Star Trek movie, you should keep the Trekkers in mind when you do so.
Peter,
Every time I hear “Nemesis” I think of Kids in the Hall “you sir, are my nemesis”
BTW. I liked the movie but it sucked big-time
Greg, in ‘Timescape’ they used those armbands in concert with the runabout’s transporter system. They were not transporters in and of themselves. The Enterprise in Nemesis had all of it’s transporter systems off line. The emergency transporter is what did the entire transporter function.
Rich
Dear PAD,
I went to see Star Trek: Nemesis because I’m a fan, I’ve seen almost every episode of all the various series and all the movies. I am not however a die hard “Trekie”, meaning my life
doesn’t revolve around Trek. I
generally don’t go out of my way
to get the latest Trek do-dads,
almost never read any of the Trek
novels, and have read very few of
the various comics and graphic
novels. Don’t take this the wrong
way, but I’ve never read any of
your Trek novels or those of any
other Trek author either. I
generally don’t have the time to do much reading beyond my regular
comics purchases, and the few
magazines I subscribe to. The last book I read wasn’t even a novel,
it was a book on quantum physics and cosmology – and a very
entertaining one at that. The book
was called “Hyperspace”, by
astrophysicist Michio Kaku, and
since you write SF you might find
some of the things written about in
the book intresting, but I digress
(opps!).
My point is this, I went to see
the movie because it was Trek, and I’m a fan. I didn’t think it was
the worst Trek movie I ever saw,
and actually thought that it was
better than Insurrection in many
ways. Did it have plot holes? Yes.
But then again, so does nearly
every other Hollywood movie I’ve
ever seen – even the much vaunted
Star Wars, and Lord Of The Rings.
As a movie, I thought it worked
quite well, as part of the Trek
series, it worked in some ways, and
in some ways it did not.
The problem with Star Trek is
that too many people have their own
interpretation of what Trek should
be. If someone feels that killing off Data is wrong, then they feel
that Trek’s writers have betrayed
them. The truth of the matter is,
Data had to be killed off, because
androids don’t age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play
the part any more – it’s that simple. Killing him off is a much
better way to write him out than
coming up with a lame excuse to
explain why Data looks different
after they recast the role with a younger actor, and risk angering
the fans even more.
As for Enterprise, the new Trek TV series, I like it because it’s different, and because it
helps to explain some of the gaps
in Trek’s history. Is it the
perfect TV show? No, but it
doesn’t have to be. Am I angry
that the show’s theme actually has
*gasp* singing? No. But it’s
unbelievable how many Trek fans
want that song changed because it
has singing and lyrics! Some fans
actually hate the entire show
simply because of that song! These
people really do need to get a
life, and they should lighten up a
little as well – come on, it’s only
a TV show, and only a movie.
The only thing wrong about this
movie was when it was relased,
Paramount should never have
released Star Trek: Nemesis so
close to the release date of Lord
Of The Rings. In fact, they would
probably have done much better at
the box office if they had waited
till the spring – say May to
release this movie than when they
they did release it. But that’s
just my opinion. I have other
things I’d like to comment on about
Trek, but I’ll save them for
another time and forum since this
post is getting too long.
DMH
Of course, in Nemesis they managed to forget they had all the runabouts and their transport systems around (easily fixed with one line; “Deck 37 was hit and all runabouts destroyed”)
Saw Nemesis with Tim Lynch and his wife Lisa and as I recall they liked it a bit more than I did. My summary was that the movie mostly worked while watching it, but if you thought closely about almost any part of it, it fell apart. On the other hand, reports are that there was about 45 minutes of footage cut, including Wesley’s speaking part (and Wil Wheaton was in the credits), the intro of Picard’s new Number One, etc. that’s supposed to end up on the DVD, which might make it hold together better.
Neither Tim nor I could quite believe Jonathan Frakes as an action hero at this point though. And when Frakes dived across the fire-fight corridor into the access hatch Tim and I had the following dialogue:
Me: “It’s a waste disposal unit!”
Tim: “What an interesting smell you’ve discovered!” (i.e. Star Wars Ep. 4).
Btw, Kath, congrats on the promotion (per Locus).
As a movie, ST Nemesis ultimately fails because of because of its villain—Shinzon, and because it doesn’t execute its intended themes very well.
First, Shinzon. Okay, so he’s a clone of Picard. So what? Cloning has been done loads of times, and the theme of a character experiencing doubt as he ponders how the existence of a doppelganger reflects upon him has been done before. We got this in Time Squared. We got it in Second Chances. We didn’t need it again, and the way it’s portrayed here, I don’t buy it. In Time Squared, Picard had to doubt himself, because the fact that apparently questionable actions on his part resulted in tragedy is something that already happened, albeit in the future. In Second Chances, Riker has to accept the fact that his doppelganger is him, and was him, right up until eight years ago, and cannot take solace in the fact that they had separate lives and experiences prior to then. Here, we’re supposed to believe that Shinzon’s childish taunt to Picard—the insinuation that Picard somehow shares in the responsibility for things that Shinzon does—actually gives pause to Picard, and I don’t buy it for a second. Picard should be smart enough to know that what Shinzon does has nothing to do with him, regardless of his genetics. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of genetics and personality dynamics should know that genetics alone do not determine character, and even if they did, Picard shouldn’t be worrying at this stage in his life about whether atrocities committed by someone with the same DNA as him says anything about himself.
This in itself wouldn’t be so bad if the movie at least gave Shinzon a solid motivation for wanting to attack Earth. This guy was conceived by the Romulans as a weapon, tossed aside when not wanted anymore and tortured by Romulan guards all his life, and his main beef is with the Federation? Why is this? Shouldn’t his main problems be with Romulans? What does he care about Earth, or the Federation? His entire plan, if you want to call it that, seems like nothing more than a gigantic child’s tantrum. If this kid grew up in Reman mines, where did he get educated? How did he amass an army? Once he escaped the mines, wouldn’t he be more interested in enjoying life as a free man than imagining an implausible vendetta against Picard or Earth, who’ve never done anything to him?
In Creative Screenwriting Vol. 9, #6, page 18, screenwriter John Logan….
…told Berman that Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan had to be the model for the next Trek movie: “Khan was the most exciting, most challenging and, therefore, most entertaining of the Star Trek movies,” he said. Analyzing this “high-water mark” (written by Harve Bennett, Jack B. Sowards, and Nicholas Meyer), Logan came away with two strong beliefs. First, the relationship between protagonist and antagonist was paramount. “Kirk and Khan, it was clash of the titans. They had a very personal relationship based on events that took place in the original series. Picard and somebody in Nemesis having a strong personal relationship raises the stakes for those characters.” Then there’s the psychological backdrop. “There’s an autumnal feeling in Khan, a sense that time is moving on. I thought that was of essence to capture in the next movie. We’ve seen these characters grow and evolve over the last fifteen years, and I was very much excited by the idea of having them break through some of those glass ceilings. We decided to move toward finality with a few of our major characters.”
Logan had a number of ideas that would challenge the world of the Next Generation characters. Dancing around major plot points, he allows, “I wanted Riker and Deanna to get married in the first scene. I wanted the third act to be a non-stop ship battle. This is a war movie, and I wanted certain things to happen, in terms of the action.” He also had some radical ideas about Data “and the Dr. Soong family, if you will,” [Dr. Soong was the scientist who created Data], while Berman added the specific nature of Shinzon’s relationship to Picard. Working closely with Berman and Spiner, Logan found that “I knew so much more about Star Trek than either of them! I would go on these Trekkie rants, and Rick and Brent would just roll their eyes.”
First, I do not see the relationship between Shinzon and Picard as coming anywhere NEAR the depth of Kirk and Khan, and after noting that Kirk and Khan had a very personal history because of events in the series, I’m left wondering why Logan didn’t do just that. ST First Contact did a good job using an enemy from the series that would bring back powerful feelings for Picard, so why not use another? Why not have Gul Madred be the villain? He probably traumatized Picard more than anyone else aside from the Borg, and he was an EXCELLENT villain. And if they really wanted Romulans, how about Tomalok? Logan says later in the article, “Before I sat down to write, I watched every episode of The Next Generation.” Coulda fooled me. Now I’m not saying you can’t create a good original villain for a movie (Kruge and General Chang come to mind), but Shinzon isn’t it. He comes across as nothing more than a whiny child for whom being given power is like being given too much sugar. I don’t buy his ridiculous motivations for wanting to destroy Earth, nor Picard’s absurd preoccupation with how Shinzon’s actions reflect upon him. Given that Logan wasn’t even the one who came up with the nature of the relationship between Picard and Shinzon, one wonders how Logan feels he executed this “very personal relationship” between them.
In the forward to the movie’s novelization, John Logan writes:
“Our villian, Shinzon, actually began the long road to his final incarnation in Nemesis as Picard’s long-lost son.”
Well, nice try. They explored that theme already in Bloodlines. He continues:
John Logan: “[Rick Berman] came to the rescue with the single idea that galvanized the whole story: have the villain be Picard’s clone. Rick argued persuasively that it would be more compelling to have Picard versus Picard. What better adversary than yourself? What better foe than a man who thinks just like you do, with the same strengths and weaknesses? What could be more poignant for Captain Picard than facing a dark mirror of himself?”
Again, they did that in The Best of Both Worlds partII, and I see no evidence of it here. True, BoBWpartII wasn’t a Picard vs. Picard theme in the more literal sense, but in that episode, Riker had to contend with the fact that all of Picard’s knowledge and experience—which would normally have been an asset with Picard on the bridge—had suddenly been turned into a weapon that would be used against them. Riker had to not only come up with a solution that Picard wouldn’t, he had to come up with a solution that was disguised as something that Picard would’ve been expressly against: risking lives to save one assimilated crew member. What appeared to Locutus as a poor strategy based on an emotional need to rescue a comrade turned out to be Riker’s way of using the Borg’s connection with Locutus against them.
In this movie, where is the evidence that Picard is facing himself as an enemy? What, just because the kid is bald and speaks with a British accent? What do we see of Shinzon’s actions that appear to the viewer as something Picard might do? Where is the moment where the viewer says to himself, “Yeah, that’s what Picard would do if he were a bad guy! I get it!”??? All we see is this: Shinzon invites the Enterprise to Romulus, plays games with them, invites the crew over but doesn’t act very friendly. He then has some words with Picard. Then, out of nowhere, he kidnaps Picard, Picard gets rescued, and then there’s a space battle. Nowhere do I see this as Picard against himself, because the creators did nothing more than dress up Shinzon as a Picard clone, wiithout actually exploring what makes Picard who he is internally.
I would’ve LOVED it if Logan were actually interested in exploring the internal workings of both Picard and Shinzon, in a plot that dealt as much with Romulan and Federation politics as starship dogfights. What personality traits of Picard’s could we have given Shinzon, and how could Picard have used those traits against him? Well, Picard is an experienced diplomat. Wouldn’t it have been cool to have seen Shinzon using his silver tongue and deceitful planning the way Dukat did in Cardassians(DS9), or the way Entek did in Second Skin(DS9) ? Picard doesn’t like being told by his first officer to stay off away teams, because he likes being a more pro-active, hands-on captain. Perhaps Shinzon has this trait, but it is so magnified, that he’s a micromanager, and doesn’t know how to delegate important duties to people he trusts. Picard is very closed socially, not given to relationships or starting a family. Perhaps Shinzon could be similarly isolated, and his weakness could be his longing for someone to love or trust other than his viceroy.
But what did we get?
Bald head? Check.
Cool outfit? Check.
There. We’re done. Let’s blow stuff up. Sorry, but merely having the actor shave his head, and “saying” that he’s a clone, does not, in itself, make a “Picard vs. himself” theme.
Nemesis also suffers from one of the same problems as Generations: It wants to borrow one of the themes from ST II, but ignores the fact that the theme, as it was executed in that movie, worked because it mirrored real life. ST II was about the passage of time, and the feeling of being old and being young. This was such a plausible theme because time had passed in real-life. Ten years had passed between the end of the original series and the first movie, and another three by the time of the second one. It was easy for Kirk to be concerned about growing old because William Shatner had grown older, and so too, did the fans. For those who had enjoyed the tv show as teens, they were now able to continue to enjoy it as a movie franchise, but with the innocence of their youth now replaced with a more tempered adulthood. It was impossible not to sympathize with Kirk. Generations couldn’t do this, because that movie came right after the end of the series, and the fact Picard was four years older when that tv series started than Kirk was in ST II certainly didn’t make that theme easily applicable. Indeed, by the NextGen era, it no longer seemed as if a Starfleet captain was expected to be out of the captain’s chair and into an admiral’s office by the time he was in his mid-to-late fifties (or even, as in Picard’s case, his mid-sixties), so if the creators were dead-set on reusing the age/youth theme for Generations, whatever set-up they would use would feel far more artificial, and indeed, in killing off Robert and Rene as a way to catalyze that theme, it did.
In the forward to the novelization, John Logan writes:
“[Nicholas Meyer and Jack Sowards] did something very smart in [Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]: they gave Kirk glasses. With that simple act, they acknowledged that fact that these characters were getting older; that time was moving on for them. I felt it important to capture this sense of continuity with The Next Generation crew……My hope was to write a movie about the special family that is the Enterprise crew; a family that is growing and evolving. I wanted to dramatize our heroes at the moment of change and show Picard dealing with it all. From the very beginning I imagined starting the movie with the wedding of Riker and Deanna.”
But where exactly do we see Picard actually “dealing” with this change? Where is the soul-searching he does that is reminiscent of Kirk’s in ST II?
Logan says he wanted to capture that autumnal feeling in Nemesis, the sense that time is moving on. I didn’t get that feeling. Riker and Troi’s marriage, and Riker’s promotion to captain and his own command, felt far too late, and far too much as an afterthought, when it should’ve been the main point of character exploration. This is really a shame, because how Riker and Troi got to this point in their relationship might’ve been a truly interesting character issue to explore in the movie. I also find it odd that Logan says he wanted to “move toward finality with a few of [the] major characters.” Finality? Riker and Troi’s marriage? That’s finality? Marriage? Nice to see Logan has such a positive view of marriage. “I now pronounce you man and wife. Your life is now over. Good-bye!” Marriage is not the end of good stories. Neither is a first officer and counselor promoted to another ship. It is simply the beginning of different ones. ST II utilized an officer’s promotion with Chekov on another ship, and ST VI even more so with Sulu getting the Excelsior. And Peter David has shown with New Frontier that neither marriage nor a first officer becoming captain of their own ship has to end the series, but simply move it along. I wish the creators could see this. Or perhaps Logan meant in in Data’s “death”? Pfft. Donatra beamed him off at the last minute, as will be likely be revealed in the next movie. And if not, what difference does it make, when you have a spare android on board anyway? Sure, there was nothing illogical about it, and it did flow believably from the plot, but when Spock died in ST II, it tied directly into the theme of Kirk’s pondering on youth, age, life and death. Data’s death bears no thematic resonance in this movie.
I personally hope that Mr. and Mrs. Troi show up on the next television series. I like the movies, but if they cease to exist after this one it wouldn’t bother me too much. Just don’t take away my weekly fix.
I really enjoyed the film, but agree that it could have been better. But weren’t the special effects done really well? It was good to see model work done again – more realism in the crashing sequence.
PAD, I met you one year in San Diego (1995 I think) – You and Neil Gaiman were chatting after his panel and I happen to be standing there. After you and Mr. Gaiman were done talking, I ask to have my picture taken with the two of you. As the camera person was taking the picture, you reach up and grab my shoulder and pull me down saying, “The fan can never be taller than the writer…”
I have never forgot that and have told that story more times than people would like to probably hear it. Thanks for the good memory. Looking forward to the new New Frontier novel and the futher adventures of Sir Apropos.
Xyon
East Tennessee
Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot to say.
Greg: As to the personal emergency transporter that Data slaps on Picard at the last moment, it’s said in the movie that it’s a prototype and there’s only one, but thanks to DVD, we can all see personal emergency transporter devices in used my multiple members of the crew in the 6th season episode “Timescape”.
Luigi Novi: First, the ones in Timescape were much larger. Hence, a very small one would have to be more advanced. Second, because the Enterprise transporters were down, this means that those little transporter pips had to dematerilalize and rematerialize themselves, which seems fairly impossible. (Yeah, Peter used them in Double or Nothing, but hey, he’s a better writer, so it’s forgivable.) Lastly, the armbands in Timescape were also used to create personal subspace forecefields.
David M. Harszlak: The truth of the matter is, Data had to be killed off, because androids don’t age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play the part any more
Luigi Novi: This is a commonly heard point made by many people, including Brent Spiner himself. It should be pointed out, though, that Data has an aging program to cause him to age in appearance, as they established in Inheritance(TNG).
Helz wrote: “Y’know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles…and isn’t it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]”
The close-up at the end of the scene seemed to show the pursuers as being Remans and not the natives. On the bright side, I was glad to see that Shinzon’s doomsday device was apparently designed by Rube Goldberg. While it wheezed and clanked into position for seven minutes, I’m sure they could have sent Worf outside to dismantle it with an axe. Or a few carefully thrown rocks…
Cheers, Jon
They were not Remans. They were Kolarins.
I loved the movie overall but it was partially derailed for me early on when I thought to myself how much more Shinzon resembled Austin Powers’ Dr. Evil than he did Captain Picard. Mini Me 2.0?
“What cinematic upgrade is really necessary? They got a new ship, they got new uniforms. And they are dealing with very large and complex issues that wouldn’t have been as easy to do on the show”
I agree with everything you say about the quality of the orignal show compared to the TNG show, but I personnally feel that they should have attempted to raise the bar and feel that they have just taken all the safe choices when it comes to changes.
New ship (introducing a new ship has been done before in Star Trek IV and DS9 so fans expect these things now)
New uniforms, (they used to change these regularly on DS9 so fans have no problem with that)
Large complex issues (Everything they have handled as you mentioned as been featured in one form or another in the various series)
This is just following the same route laid done by the TNG series and the spin-off series.
I myself while happy with the level of the TNG movies can’t help but feel that there was so much more that could have been done.
Playing safe is not always the smart choice as the box office taking are showing.
Paramount should be trying to raise the bar with Star Trek in order for it to have a next generation of fans.
Here’s how I would rank the ST films….
1. Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (1982) Directed by Nicholas Meyer
2. ST: First Contact (1996) Directed by Jonathan Frakes
3. The Voyage Home (1986) Directed by Leonard Nimoy
4. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) Directed by Nicholas Meyer
5. Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) Directed by Stuart Baird
6. Star Trek: Insurrection (1998) Directed by Jonathan Frakes
7. Star Trek: Generations (1994) Directed by David Carson
8. Star Trek: The Search For Spock (1984) Directed by Leonard Nimoy
9. Star Trek The Motion Picture (1980) Directed by Robert Wise
10. Star Trek: The Final Frontier (1989) Directed by William Shatner
I went in not expecting much and enjoyed the heck out of it, so much so that I saw it a second time. The clones of Comic Book Guy who want to whine about Berman and Braga and continuity and whatever need to let go and actually enjoy things. It looks and sounds great, and to me it actually feels cinematic, which none of the previous TNG movies had (I didn’t like Generations or First Contact, and I liked Insurrection but it was clearly an extended-length TV episode).
I’d love to see a DS9 movie, but that would be difficult with the way the series ended. Maybe it could be set back between some of the already-seen episodes, like a lot of the novels are.
I felt the movie was OK but I was thrilled that Riker called Troi “Imzadi.” In my mind it was a “shout out” to my favorite Star Trek writer. I’ve been corrected by other fans that PAD didn’t create the word. My response is he may not have invented it but he certainly gave it depth and meaning to us fans or at least to me.
PAD hope you and Kath are getting at least some sleep.
Jesse
I didn’t go in expecting much from Menesis and found it a mildly enjoyable time-waster (with some frustrating inconsistancies). However, I saw the Firefly 2 hour pilot a few days later and felt it was much more worthy of a $9 admission.
Well, I made my views on Nemesis earlier, but here’s how I rank the Trek film franchise:
1. Undiscovered Country
2. Wrath of Khan
3. First Contact
4. Generations
5. The Final Frontier
6. The Voyage Home
7. Nemesis
8. Insurrection
9. Star Trek: The Motion Picture
I’m probably one of the few that enjoyed The Final Frontier. Why? The campfire scene with Kirk, Spock, and Bones, discussing mortality was worth the price of admission.
To me, it just felt like one big two-hour episode of the TV show.
Which would be fine, except it’s a big motion picture and the bar should be higher.
Things did seem recycled, but not in a good way.
Plus, too much screen time for characters I don’t like and too little for the ones I do.
Brick Top: Do you know what “nemesis” means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an ‘orrible çûņŧ… me!
Thats from Snatch.
I’ll say this about Nemesis, it was better than Episode II.