Y’know, I haven’t watched “The Tonight Show” in ages, but I’ve started tuning in since the entire blow-up with NBC. Glad I did. The bit with “30 Rock’s” Kenneth the Page last night was absolutely golden.
Personally I think if Leno’s smart–and he is–he’s gotta say at this point that he’s passing on returning to 11:30. It’s the only way out of this no-win scenario that (admittedly) NBC has gotten itself into. They should never have promised Conan “The Tonight Show” back in 2005 but, hey, they did. They should never have put Leno on five days a week but, hey, they did. From a PR point of view, from a “Can’t we all just get along?” view, Leno’s best move is to say basically, “Hey, we tried a 10 PM slot, it didn’t work, that’s the way that goes, but there’s no reason to force Conan out just because my show didn’t cut the mustard.”
PAD
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This is pretty much my feeling. The experiment failed, but it was a risk they took. Leno should step back and find a new option that doesn’t screw over other hosts.
Or NBC should find it for him. A variety series with Leno wasn’t a terrible idea. What’s wrong with making him the new Ed Sullivan? Or the new Sid Caesar? Give him a slot Sunday night, 8 PM, a combination of sketch comedy and absolutely kick ášš guests who are there to perform rather than sit and chat.
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PAD
Excellent idea.
He ain’t getting Sunday night at 8 on NBC. Remember, NBC has Sunday Night Football now, and I believe that’s one of their better ratings performers.
Given that Friday and Saturday nights are considered wastelands by tv programmers these days, it’s hard to figure where on NBC’s schedule you could reasonably drop in a new Toast of the Town (the original name of the Ed Sullivan Show).
Football isn’t year ’round. Most television shows don’t air fifty two weeks a year. So they don’t run the Leno variety show during football season. So they run it from February through the end of the summer. Gives them new material during the summer months when a lot of other networks are just airing reruns. Plus, even more important, it keeps Leno from going to another network and providing competition.
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PAD
Totally agree – but I don’t think Leno’s going to do that. The original “Tonight Show” debacle proved that he has a history of letting nothing stand in the way of him getting what he wants. I don’t see how he can possibly reclaim his reputation of being everyone’s favorite talk show host, though.
Gah. Nitpick time. The expression is “cut the muster” not “cut the mustard.”
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Other than than, I agree with PAD on this one.
You got here too soon. I was going to mention the cutting of mustard.
I’ve always wondered how that got to be the basic standard of competence. It sounds too easy. Has there ever been anyone who couldn’t cut mustard? Maybe that’s what’s wrong with our country– our standards are too low.
But you beat me to it. I’ve never heard ‘cut the muster’, though. I’ve heard ‘pass muster’, and I was wondering if the mustard was just a malaprop of that, but I’ve never known for sure.
I suppose I could criticise Peter for saying that Leno’s show was on at 10:00 and Conan at 11:30, instead of 9:00 and 10:30, respectively. But that seems to be a minor quibble. (I do wish the rest of the country would learn how to tell time. I’ve often wondered if that’s why New Yorkers often seem cranky. All their clocks are wrong, so they’re always in a hurry, thinking it’s an hour later than it actually is. Slow down, people! Relax.)
I think the point is that if you can’t even cut mustard, you’re obviously not very good.
Yeah, uh, no. The expression is “pass muster.” “Cut the muster” is a tortured attempt by some people to explain where the phrase “cut the mustard” originated.
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PAD
…the phrase itself emerged in the USA towards the end of the 19th century. The earliest example in print that I’ve found is from The Iowa State Reporter, August 1897, in a piece about the rivalry between two Iowa towns:
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Dubuque had the crowds, but Waterloo “Cut the Mustard”
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The use of quotation marks and the lack of any explanation of the term in that citation imply that ‘cut the mustard’ was already known to Iowa readers and earlier printed examples may yet turn up.
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http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cut-the-mustard.html
Well, in that case, I owe you an apology. I hereby rescind my nitpick.
This is being handled as well as it was when Johnny Carson retired.
NBC is to talk what Fox is to science fiction.
If by that you mean each respective networks give each respective genre the Rodney Dangerfield treatment on a regular basis, I can’t agree more!
That is EXACTLY what I mean.
I agree with you, PAD, but I can’t help thinking this is all NBC trying to push Leno back to the the 11:30 slot where he had higher ratings than Conan has achieved so far. If that’s the case then he may not be able to just leave with breaching contract.
And yet, I believe I read something indicating that O’Brien has actually done well in that all-important 18-49 group over the last couple of months.
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Not to mention, this whole spat could finally get people to watch O’Brien, as the same thing happened to Letterman after his infidelity became known. People started tuning in.
A big part of why Conan has had lower ratings at 11:30 is because the 10:00 ratings have been so bad. The local news stations have all been complaining about hos the low ratings before them kill their ratings, that’s going to trickle down to Conan.
I disagree with PAD. Everyone is making Leno out to be the villain when in reality the villains are the suits sitting in the front office. Five years ago Zucker kicked Leno to the curb which never made any sense when it was announced and was obviously not wanted by Leno. I remember the night Leno announced it and it was one of the few times that he didn’t sound sincere, obviously he didn’t want.
I knew Conan was a mistake from the beginning, his humor was better at 12 than at 11 for the type of viewers the shows have. One reason, until now Letterman could not maintain a lead until against Conan is because his humor fit better with the the later viewers.
One thing that should be realized is Conan is now dead at NBC, you don’t skewer your boss as he has the last two nights and have any chance of surviving. I believe last night was a lock for that. They may let him ride out the clock but I bet soon we will be seeing gust hosts or Leno suddenly in the seat with no fanfare.
You can’t blame Leno for wanting the job he didn’t want to give up in the first place. Neither can you blame Conan for being pìššëd, but he should have realized he didn’t have what it takes in the first place. The person who should be on the bonfire is Jeffery Zucker. How this idiot still has a job after the last 5 years of trashing the once great NBC is beyond me. He sucked as a programmer, so they gave him a promotion. As president he’s blown it again and again!
…You never watched David Letterman, did you? (the insulting your boss comments)
Ratings come and go. No one has high ratings in the beginning.
Watched him all the time. But there is a difference between a comedy routine and something that is backed up by actual truth.
Um, every single joke at GE’s expense was backed up by actual truth.
It’s rare that I see commentary that is so utterly unrelated to what I’ve written…
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No, wait. That’s not right. I meant to say that I see it all the time.
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I never said Leno was a villain. In fact, the only thing I said directly about Leno as a person is that he was smart. I said that NBC had gotten themselves into this situation. That would be the suits in the front office. So even though you led off with stating you disagree with me, the very first thing you do is, in fact, agree with me.
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I think quality humor is quality humor, regardless of the hour. The fact is that Leno got off to a slow start when he took over “Tonight,” and that was back when the programming leading into the show was far stronger than it is now. There is empirical evidence, based in affiliates’ complaints, that the lousy ratings for Leno’s show has taken news programs that were number one in their slot and dropped them to number three. Under those sorts of conditions, it is impossible for Conan to succeed regardless of what type of humor he’s doing. The audience simply isn’t there.
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NBC wanted to have it all. They wanted to have a prime time slate with minimal cost, they wanted to keep Leno, they wanted to keep Conan. But Steven Wright said it very well: “You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?” NBC has it all and nowhere to put it.
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PAD
Sure they do. 7 days at 11:30pm- One week Conan has four days and Jay has three. The next week they shift.
It is an easy solution. NBC just needs to see it.
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Six days, Gene. They’re not messing with SNL for either of these guys. Other than that… Not that good of an idea really.
people watch SNl out of habit. Norm Macdonald was the last bit of funny that they had.
So why is it a bad idea exactly?
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”people watch SNl out of habit. Norm Macdonald was the last bit of funny that they had.”
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Your opinions and you have a right to both, but they’re not based in fact. SNL picks up new viewers every few years even as older viewers leave because the new cast isn’t to their liking. When they’re really on they actually get new viewers and some of the viewers who quit watching come back for a while to see what all the fuss is about. A perfect example of the ”all the fuss” stuff was SNL’s handling of the election last year.
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As to your idea…
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I can’t see that working very well. One guy gets half the week and the other gets the other half and, if you do go with a seven day plan, they switch on the extra day each week? Leno and Conan have fairly different styles and they attract a different group of fans. Their styles are noticeably different and that doesn’t create the consistency that most people prefer in shows like that. A chunk of each guy’s viewer base my tune out during the other guy’s days and maybe tune into Dave. You then run a greater risk of Dave becoming their regular viewing when they see a promo on one night and find out that Dave is doing fill-in-the-blank or having fill-in-the-blank on the show the next night, the fill-in-the-blank is something or someone they like a lot and they choose to not tune in to NBC that night even if it is the host they like. They may not even need to turn to Dave as an alternative to do the damage. With all the channels that are out there it is not a good idea to give a part of your audience the incentive to go elsewhere for half of the week each and every week. They may find something that they like better than the show they were watching and not come back.
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You’re also going to run into the ego thing. You have two guys doing the same job on the same show for pretty much the same number of days per year. If you pay one guy more than the other it’ll fall apart because of the egos involved. If you pay them the same amount you’ll be paying one guy more than he’s worth and one guy less than he’s worth and you’ll have the ego issue pop up again.
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And who gets the A-list guests? If you say the guy who gets the better ratings then you’re basically sabotaging the other guy from day one. Yeah, you can try to split them up equally, but, again, you have ego issues between some of these guys over who gets the big bookings when they’re on separate shows. The ego blow ups under your suggestion would be ridiculous.
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In the end, one guy would likely end up walking out in a huff and going to another network to start his own show anyhow. If you’re a network head honcho, why risk the loss in viewers or deal with the headaches? This situation got messy with the simple concept of just pushing one show back 30 minutes and launching a new show as its 11:35 lead in. Do you really think that the parties involved would be happy with treating the host seat of the Tonight Show as a musical chair game?
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Besides, NBC isn’t going to do that anyhow. Rightly or wrongly, NBC thinks that Leno will get that timeslot’s ratings back up and pull more viewers than Conan is getting. If they think that it’s worth the headache that they’re getting now to push Conan back a bit; what makes you think that they’ll see intentionally dropping their ratings for half of the week every week as a good idea? They’re going to lose Conan over this no matter what at this point. It’s better all the way around to just let Conan leave and maybe get a new show elsewhere. It’s certainly better for the viewers who like Conan more than Leno and it’s probably better for Leno’s fans (who think he’s good to watch so long as there’s nothing better on TV it seems) because they’ll get their late night show back.
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Me? I could really care less. Leno lost me as a viewer years ago and Conan was always hit and miss (with more misses) with me to the point that I don’t bother watching him.
“In the end, one guy would likely end up walking out in a huff and going to another network to start his own show anyhow. If you’re a network head honcho, why risk the loss in viewers or deal with the headaches?”
That is what is already happening. Conan is refusing to move the show. he will no doubt end up moving to a competing network, costing NBC viewers. The pie is only so big. NBC seems intent on giving their piece away, like they did years agio with Dave Letterman.
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I know that’s what’s happening now. Conan is very likely gone for good from NBC very soon and NBC will have Leno back at 11:35. So why would NBC want to drag the process out and possibly damage the show/host they’re keeping by splitting the time slot? It becomes an even bigger issue when this has already turned into a PR nightmare where NBC (and Leno to a degree) look like the villains pushing poor Conan out of his dream job after he barely had a chance to have a go at it. It would likely be an even bigger PR blow at this point if they kept Conan on as Leno’s second banana.
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I just don’t see the idea as a workable option.
At this stage it seems NBC has three options:
1) Loose Conan. Give Leno the Tonight Show, and hope that he’ll recover from the bad PR of having taken away Conan’s job.
2) Loose Leno, and hope that eventually Conan will grow into the job enough to compete with Letterman, and that Leno doesn’t take away viewers by getting a show somewhere else.
3) Try to buy Leno off by offering him something else that does not require getting rid of Conan.
From what I’ve read, Leno was not “forced out.” Leno’s contract was up in 2009. Conan’s contract was up in 2004 and he was being courted by other networks. NBC wanted to keep him and Conan wanted The Tonight Show. They asked Leno if he would be ready to retire in 2009. Leno said yes and the deal emerged from there. Did Leno change his mind? Yes, but the 10:00 p.m. arrangement was one that basically set Conan up to fail. “Mr. Robinson, you’re now CEO of Coca-Cola. Oh, by the way, we’re changing the formula this year to something called New Coke. However, if you don’t keep sales consistent with past years, you’re out on your ášš.”
I also think the 12:05 move was never honest. Conan’s ratings would have tanked and he’d have been yanked. So instead of going out like a loser, he gets to go out somewhat on his own terms. I mean, really, what was Leno going to do for 30 minutes? His monologue is half that long. Throw in headlines and there’s barely time for a guest.
PAD typed:
I think quality humor is quality humor, regardless of the hour.
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I’d agree with that. I’d add the condition that quality humor should occasionally make you laugh. Since neither Leno or O’Brien have ever elicited that kind of response from me, I find it hard to throw them into that category.
I didn’t watch Conan at 12:35am or 11:35pm, didn’t watch Jay at 11:35pm or 10pm, and I’ll bet I can continue not watching them wherever they end up.
–Ed
How were they supposed to make you laugh if you never saw them perform? Seems a bit self-defeating to me…
Yeah, I was wondering that myself.
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PAD
Would “didn’t make a habit of watching” be clearer? At some point after Carson retired, my television set was probable set to NBC after the local news ended. So it’s likely I’ve seen a Leno monologue or two. Seems to me that I’ve seen Anniversary shows with the best of Leno and O’Brien on NBC Prime Time. I just don’t understand the appeal, especially when Letterman is just a channel away.
–Ed
TMZ (for what that’s worth) is reporting that Leno gets the Tonight Show back and Conan is out.
Reluctantly, I’m on Team Leno for this. (If only because I hate people piling on.) Conan took over the Tonight Show in late spring/early summmer – several months before Jay went on at 10. Jay gave him fairly healthy ratings that kept declining weekly and by the time Jay debuted, Conan had fallen behind Letterman. So the whole Conan is starting slow and he needs time to build doesn’t quite wash.
FWIW, I’m in my 50’s and I don’t think I have ever laughed once at Conan but he’s a different generation. I’m not crazy about either Jay or Letterman either and I think the whole Tonight Show mystique should be laid to rest. It is no longer Holy Grail of late night and hasn’t been for awhile. Carson was pretty much unwatchable his last few years until he announced a retirement date and the show perked up as he entered the home stretch. But I wonder how dominant he would have remained had he faced the choices/cable/on-line options that exists today.
Leno had the ratings when he was forced out. Conan was given a couple of months to at least remain steady and he didn’t. As far as I can see, he kept losing to Letterman; the trend didn’t seem to be reversing.
Except you’re basically describing Leno’s initial ratings struggles against Letterman. A ratings drop off with the new guy until he finds his audience…something that, if Hugh Grant hadn’t been shopping for prostitutes, Leno might never have located. There’s absolutely no reason to think that, all things being equal, Conan wouldn’t have eventually gotten to Leno’s level of ratings on “Tonight.” But with the lousy lead-in of–paradoxically–Leno’s new show, Conan’s ability to build an audience was kneecapped.
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So basically Leno made a deal with NBC (he wasn’t “forced out,” remember; he told them in 2005 he’d be willing to step aside), he put on a show that simply didn’t capture a nightly audience, thereby undercutting Conan’s ability to succeed, and now Conan really IS being forced out…and I should feel badly for LENO? I don’t think so.
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PAD
It seems to me Leno made several mistakes.
1) He didn’t fight for his place at the Tonight Show when NBC decided to push him out despite the fact that he didn’t want to leave. If may have wanted to seem like the gracious man passing the torch to Conan, but the minute he took that 10:00 show he ended up looking like the guy who is overstaying his welcome and undercutting his successor.
2) He agreed to a very risky and dubious 10:00 show that made it seem as if he’s forcing Conan to continue playing second fiddle, as if he’s imitating his old show, and forcing him to compete for rating with weekly drama series. I don’t understand why he didn’t do what PAD suggested and had a once a week bigger better comedy show instead, or left to another network to do a new late night show. Instead he is now being blamed for his own failure in very difficult circumstances and for Conan’s low rating. That’s unfair to both him and Conan. Conan should have gotten more time to build an audience, but his ability or inability to draw audiences should not be blamed on Leno.
3) When it became clear that NBC were going to shaft Conan in order to keep him, he should have taken himself out of the competition before Conan did, or suggested a once a week show like PAD suggests. Now even if he goes back to the Tonight Show his image will be very tarnished. It’s an unfair situation for him since even if he goes to another network now he will be perceived as undercutting Conan, while if he’d done it earlier it would have seemed like a justified response to being pushed out.
You know what I wouldn’t be surprised to see? On Leno’s first night back, the audience stopping the show right up front by repeatedly shouting, “Conan! Conan! Conan!”
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PAD
I think they will make ÐÃMN SURE that doesn’t happen. Even if they have to fill the auditorium with the extended Zucker family. though it would be totally awesome if you’re right.
The thing is, I don’t think Leno is that smart.
He’s certainly smart enough to have a successful television career.
Jay is going to come out of this looking like Stan lee to Conans Jack Kirby.
Whether or not he did a thing, he will be the big bad villain that screwed the “poor” Conan out of a timeslot.
The idea of moving the “tonight” show to post midnight is silly. Wouldn’t it be then the Tomorrow Show?
no Chris, because as Annie said………”Tomorrow is always a day away”
Maybe Conan can become Letterman’s permanent guest host (no more repeats!) and heir apparent…I know Dave is supposed to stick around until at least 2012 but it would be smart for them to start thinking about a post Dave future. And Dave may need to spend a bit more time with the family.
The way I see this working out… NBC moves the Tonight Show to 12:05, Conan leaves in a huff, a bunch of guest hosts (perhaps a rotating cadre) taking over the reins of the Tonight Show… and then, a couple months down the line, when “enough time has passed,” NBC announces that they’re moving the Tonight Show back to 11:35, and Leno retakes the reins.
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That being said, I’d love for Leno to get a weekly variety show instead. Then I only have to avoid him once a week…
My solution? Both! Use a split screen, separate audio track.
Last I heard, Conan’s last day is supposed to be next Friday and then after the winter olympics, Jay Leno reclaims the 11:35 Tonight Show slot (which a few days ago he said he would never go back to because of how NBC mistreated Conan, then a day or two later agrees to do it), and Conan is gonna leave (with all that NBC-promised money)
Personally, I’ve never thought Jay Leno was funny at all. Kevin Eubanks is one of the most useless people on TV. I don’t think there’s anyone on this planet that has a faker laugh than that dude. Just a stupid, horrible, idiotic decision by NBC in my opinion.
The worst part is, Conan never got a chance since Leno was only pulling in an average of 5 million viewers thereby giving him such a weak lead-in. Now, however, that they’ll actually be able to put something like Law & Order, Dateline or SouthLand (which they’re trying to get back from TNT) on at 10, those shows will provide a better lead-in, which will lead to higher ratings for The Tonight Show, which will lead to NBC probably claiming that they made the right decision to dump Conan and put Leno back at 11:35 (I’ll bet dollars to donuts on that)
I’m with you, Peter. I’ve been tuning in to the Tonight Show after many years (i.e. the Leno era) away, and I think O’Brien’s been priceless.
I can’t see how, if you’re Jay Leno, taking that slot back is not being a total spoiler. He’s had his day, my God.
At the same time, I think if I were NBC I’d keep Conan with the condition that he do his own thing more (not very likely). From what I’ve seen the last few days, his show seems a lot more watered down than it was at 11:30.
I can’t help but enjoy the irony here, that one of NBC’s main motivating factors in this whole prime time Leno debacle was to patch up their 10-11 p.m. line-up for a bargain basement price, and now that the experiment has failed miserably, it’s going to cost them tens of millions of dollars no who matter who stays and who goes.
Personally, my money is on Leno to return to his original slot. If there is one thing the previous Leno/Letterman late night war proved, Leno may act like a nice guy, but he will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Hey, more power to him; that’s the way the game is played. And I’m willing to wager that NBC will allow Conan to go to another network in return for a smaller penalty payment.
I really don’t watch a lot of the late night stuff. I’ll tune in now and then, but I’m just rarely in front of the TV that late in the evening. I’ve never been a big Leno or Conan fan; if anything, I prefer Letterman and my favorite of the group is actually Craig Ferguson.
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However, I did watch Conan that first week when he became host of The Tonight Show and I have been watching this week. And I must say, I didn’t think Conan very funny that first week; I know he is a funny guy, but he did seem off early on, which is odd, because it’s not like he was new to the process. But this week? It seems like he’s really settled in over the last 6 months.
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The problem truly is NBC wanting to somehow keep both Leno and Conan, but completely fragging it up. Short term view over long term, and they’re going to pay for it. I also think NBC is still stuck in the 1950’s, as if there are only the 3 networks and nothing else to watch in the evening.
It’s important to note that there was no real uproar over Conan’s ratings. He did very well the first week or so out of novelty and started being handily beaten by Letterman — a comedy legend with an established show. Any realistic expectation would be that his would occur for a while and Conan would have the benfit of time to improve.
However, the uproar was over Leno’s ratings. If Leno had succeeded at 10:00 p.m., nothing would have changed. They certainly wouldn’t have put Leno back at 11:30 p.m.
And as another poster said, it’s even more infuriating for Conan, I would imagine, to have been handicapped by a weak Leno lead-in and then have Leno return to his old job with a reasonable lead-in.
If I were Jimmy Fallon, though, I would look for another job because the hosts of LATE NIGHT are never treated well. Between the two of them, Letterman and Conan put in almost 30 years with the network and each wound up leaving under very acrimonous circumstances.
If Jay does the show as long as Carson did (and that’s generous — a 68-year-old host in the Facebook age?), NBC has *no* back-up plan. Fallon?