Several years ago, I had a living will done up. If the worst should happen, I’m never going to have to concern myself that politicians, like leeches, will attach themselves to my case the way they have with poor Terri Schiavo. Screaming hypocrites who consider all life sacred–unless, of course, we’re bombing it into oblivion or consigning it to death row for execution.
Yes, friends, the US government–the one that the GOP claims they want to keep out of people’s lives–just loves mixing into people’s deaths, setting the calendar on life termination and making sure that no one, absolutely no one, dies before the government is ready to send them to their deaths personally.
I strongly suggest to any and all reading this that you decide one way or the other while you still can. If you want to insist your family takes whatever measures possible to continue your life, even if medical science says it’s hopeless, then make that clear in writing. If, like me, you don’t want to burden your family and force them to watch you lie there like a slab of meat, consigning you all to a sort of twilight zone holding pattern for year after year after year, then make that clear as well.
Don’t leave it in the hands of politicians, lawyers, judges, and, God forbid, a Bush.
PAD
• 
Also, wasn’t Enron brought down during conservative control of the govenrment? What was happening when liberals were in charge?
I love that question. It’s the fave of the Fox News grew and the Rush crowd. Its major problem is that you have to empty your brain of years of memory to ask it. Go back and look at the work done by Congress in the last six years of the 90’s. Once Newt and the boys took over 2/3 of the Government they set about “taking the gloves off of capitolism.” The “Revolution” set about making federal agencies that watchdogged businesses like that weaker, fighting to reduce fines and moving hard and fast to strip the regulations that were “crippling” poor victims like Enron. Bush came in and really cut loose. My fave was when he chose a man to head the S.E.C. who was a former head of a major company being investigated BY the S.E.C. (sorry, can’t remember the names and I’m on a work break. I’ll get the info later tonight at home and post it.)
Those “Libs” who objected and pointed out that the laws and regulations in place came about because of so many acts by businesses forcing the need for them were painted by G.O.P. members on chat shows, the Rush types and the Fox News Zoo as UnAmerican, anti-capitolism, pro-communist, under or over educated depending on what the arguement was, desiring to cripple and destroy the backbone of this country, etc….
Yeah, those libs didn’t do anything. Enron fell with a Republican White House as an act of timing. It crashed so bad that they couldn’t get away with doing nothing to “Kenny Boy”. But, like the S&L crash, how much of the scandle was created by a Republican “hit(ting) the jackpot” and “unleashing capitolism” by making it so much more easy to get away with it for as long as they did.
And, as a bit of a side note, ain’t it just too funny how a number of those scandles, from S&L to Enron and beyond, involve Bush family and/or friends. But he’s such an honest man from such an honest family.
I want to know why Terri Schiavo is so much more important, and has people up in arms and crying and whooping and hollering about the injustice of it all, compared to the Red Lakes school shooting?
Precident setting. Schmesident setting. Who cares? I think a school shooting qualifies as a much, much, MUCH bigger tragedy compared to a woman who is completely brain dead.
TFE, I’ve thought the same throughout the whole mess…. the homeless, the poor, drug addicted, etc. The percentage of Americans effected by each of those afflictions dwarves those that end up in a scenrio similar to the one making all of the news.
Fred
Those “Libs” who objected and pointed out that the laws and regulations in place came about because of so many acts by businesses forcing the need for them were painted by G.O.P. members on chat shows, the Rush types and the Fox News Zoo as UnAmerican, anti-capitolism, pro-communist, under or over educated depending on what the arguement was, desiring to cripple and destroy the backbone of this country, etc….
I suppose it would be rude to ask for an example? You seem so certain…
Anyway, my point was not to exorcate liberals in all this–the truth of the matter is that both sides of congress get lots of money from corporations and to only paint one side as benefiting from big business is, well, charmingly naive.
I want to know why Terri Schiavo is so much more important, and has people up in arms and crying and whooping and hollering about the injustice of it all, compared to the Red Lakes school shooting?
Sure, but isn’t it always the case that what intrigues us may have nothing to do with the relative severity of the problem? If you want to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion, isn’t it awfully silly of PAD to worry about some comic store owner when there are tsunami victims waiting to be fed?
(NOTE TO THE LITERAL MINDED–that was a rhetorical question)
Some stories capture the moment or the imagination, they resonate. Lots of people died around the same time that Matthew Shepard was killed buthis was the one that stayed in the papers. Other children besides John Bonet Ramsey were killed but hers is the one we remember. It’s easy to accuse the media of creating the hype but I think that both stories were driven by the interest of the public; I know that when I heard about both I wanted to know more.
Perhaps the Schiavo case has dragged on too long but that’s in part because the media probably thought that it would have been resolved by now. Terri has lasted longer than expected.
There’s another factor, I’m guessing–people like Jesse Jackson think thatthey can still have some effect on the outcome of this story, as opposed to the school shooting which has already happened and isn’t about to be changed.
Bill:
>>I want to know why Terri Schiavo is so much more important, and has people up in arms and crying and whooping and hollering about the injustice of it all, compared to the Red Lakes school shooting?
>Sure, but isn’t it always the case that what intrigues us may have nothing to do with the relative severity of the problem? If you want to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion, isn’t it awfully silly of PAD to worry about some comic store owner when there are tsunami victims waiting to be fed?
I don’t disagree with your point. I’d only point out that PAD is not a news agency (Though some here may utilize him as such) nor is he a an elected representative with influence on policy.
Perhaps the Schiavo case has dragged on too long but that’s in part because the media probably thought that it would have been resolved by now. Terri has lasted longer than expected.
There’s another factor, I’m guessing–people like Jesse Jackson think thatthey can still have some effect on the outcome of this story, as opposed to the school shooting which has already happened and isn’t about to be changed.
Yah, the Schaivo case is still ongoing, which is a good point. And people other either side of the issue can soapbox and pontificate about it, so its half a person’s life and half a political muckity muck.
However, I’m pretty dumbstruck that Red Lakes has gotten, at most, a passing mention. Compare it to Columbine. How long did that dominate the headlines? Both huge tragedies with teenaged killings in school.
I hate to imply this, but: would the lack of Red Lakes coverage have anything to do with the fact that it happened on an impovrised Indian reservation, as opposed to a clean cut suburban white kid school?
Schiavo doesn’t fill me with any sort of emotion, at all. Red Lakes makes me feel sad and I want to hear more about. Seeing it pushed aside from the headlines for, well, everything, is really getting me ticked.
Well, there’s one other factor–Columbine had video footage, ready to be replayed endlessly.
Believe me, if there had not been all those great videos of the tsunami it would have been a one day story.
I’ve long thought that if activists really wanted to get this country involved in stopping some of the various atrocities around the world they should simply invest a few thousand dollars in handing out camcorders to the people of Sudan, Rowanda, etc.
(PS–I think the owrd Iwas looking for was excorciate)
Which proves you speak out of turn and about a person that you no nothing of, at least in this case. The guy is a professor with a Ph.D.
So, he’s an educated idiot. Big Deal.
Exactly what did his stunt accomplish? Nothing.
Idiot.
>>Which proves you speak out of turn and about a person that you no nothing of, at least in this case. The guy is a professor with a Ph.D.
>So, he’s an educated idiot. Big Deal.
While this may or may not be true, you have no clue of the man or his character, only his actions as reported in 1 instance.
>Exactly what did his stunt accomplish? Nothing.
End results have nothing to do with intent.
>Idiot.
You forgot to follo-up on the part about grandstanding. My original point was focused only on conviction, by the way.
Bill said “Not that I support this guy…but so what?”
That was the point Bill, these f-ing idiots people are prasing for their “conviction” would end up killing the woman they claim to be trying to say if they got their food and water to her room.
These disgusting scumbags remind me of the mindless in zombies in monster movies, too bad the cops can treat the attempted tresspassers and meddlers the same way, shotgun blast to the face….
Leave the Schaivo’s alone and let Terri pass already you morons, there are people who are still within reach of help and need help, but they waste their time on this crap…
TFE, I don’t think you’re far off base. The fact that the Red Lakes shooting happened on a reservation certainly plays into the lack of coverage it’s getting. The national spotlight blinked toward ot for a moment, then swung back to focus on Florida/Atlanta/DC again. Part of the reason is because there’s not much play for a news story that occurs on a reservation (I’m sure many people would say something like “we still have those?”). But it’s not all just the media…the Red Lake members don’t really want the national spotlight. Unlike Columbine, where there was dramatic video of kids running from school, and that shot of the wounded kid falling from the window, and also dozens of kids and parents willing to be interviewed, the Red Lake band doesn’t have any video, that we know of. They don’t want to be interviewed. They don’t want to appear on GMA. They want to get on with grieving, with figuring out what happened, and with staying out of the national spotlight.
As to not giving the tsunami much play if we hadn’t had video…I find that hard to believe. As many as 500,000 people died that day. While I’d agree that what stories news stations carry is somewhat based on getting people to watch, how can you not make a story that kills 6% of the population of the Chicago area in one day?
Yo Bladdy, who is praising the guy? My statement was made about respect for convictions. Nothing to do with any other person’s actions, nor his really. Whether one is talking of someone that they agree with or will fight to the end, conviction of this calibur is not often found. Take a moment to think of a belief that you have regarding something that does not directly effect you. Would you be willing to fly across the country and risk arrest or worse to support your belief?
There’s a very fine line between admiring someone’s conviction…and admiring a crazy person. When Muhammad Ali lost his boxing title because of his opposition to the war, that was conviction to admire. You could argue with him on his position, but you couldn’t say he was wrong.
Anyone trying to sneak into the hospice with water for Terri might not be said to be wrong, IF they knew that she can’t swallow, and the best they could do is put small drops on her tounge or her lips. Those trying to break in to give her food? Just plain wrong. Any solid food given to her now would probably kill her, if she didn’t choke on it first.
I don’t think you can be said to have conviction when the action you’re taking in support of your beliefs does nothing to further those beliefs. Rather, it’s just grandstanding, making a statement for the statement’s sake. Much as this whole national fascination with the case is. Thousands of families deal with this same situation every day, yet manage to get by without court intervention, media spotlights, or action by the Federal government just for them.
Tallest,
I heard about it and was chilled by the thought that a school shooting is no longer newsworthy. Lack of video aside, something this horrific is news; that it’s on a reservation makes it more newsworthy, I’d think, since motives might have a darker twist and a comment on our treatment of native Americans.
Robbnn, NPR has carried a lot of stories about Red Lake. I don’t think most Americans want to be reminded that we’ve got what amounts to conquored sovereign nations still inside American territory.
I’m still trying to understand how someone, as it appears this shooter was, could be a Native American Nazi.
Speaking of political bloodsuckers, Michigan has passed a law allowing doctors to refuse to treat patients in non-emergency situations if the doctor has moral, ethical, or religious objections.
I wonder how long it will be before this law of bigotry is struck down by the courts.
Too bad we can’t just jail every Michigan legislature that voted in favor of this.
As to not giving the tsunami much play if we hadn’t had video…I find that hard to believe. As many as 500,000 people died that day. While I’d agree that what stories news stations carry is somewhat based on getting people to watch, how can you not make a story that kills 6% of the population of the Chicago area in one day?
How much play did the Tangshan Earthquake of 1976 get? over 600,000 died but without the videos to back it up how long can the story run? You can only have an anchor saying “600,000 Chinese are still dead.” before people lose interest.
One new wrinkle in the Red Lake story is that they just arrested the son of one of the trible leaders as an accomplice. There may be others involved. So there may be a high level of nervousness and uncertainty among the tribal members which could explain why they are reluctant to go on TV.
Ironically, the father of the just arrested kid, Floyd Jourdain Jr, HAd been on TV commenting on the trgedy, which he probably regrets now.
I’m still trying to understand how someone, as it appears this shooter was, could be a Native American Nazi.
Oh, that’s easy. He apparently hated blacks, or, more accurately, Native Americans who “acted black”. He seems to have advocated the same solution that the modern nazis claim is theirs; not extermination but “everyone in their own place”. Blacks back to Africa, Hispanics to South America, even the Indians get some land back (though not all).
And here is the added point that you are trying to understand the mindset of someone who was cleary insane.
Sorry about getting back with this info so late. Got a last minute idiot that kept my up half the night waiting for a breath tech and the other half of the night at lock up.
In ref to my above post:
Bush picked Bill Donaldson as his golden boy to be the SEC head. The SEC (for anybody who doesn’t know) is supposed to be a watchdog against fraud by Wall Street firms. Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette, that Bill was the CEO of, was under investigation by the SEC for fraud and has history of doing things that got it fined as for back as the early 90’s. Cases against them and details of fines can be found through the Wall Street Journal, Forbes fine tracker & the findlaw websites case histories.
I was 5 in 1976, so I’ve got no memory of what was and wasn’t played on the news then. Then again, it was 30 years ago. We didn’t have worldwide news like we do today. And if China was anything then like it is today, I’m betting that all they would say about the matter was “we had an earthquake.” The toll and scope of the devastation would have leaked out over the weeks following the event.
If that scale of an event were to occur today, whether there was video or not, it’d get more than a day’s coverage.
The conspiracy aspect of the Red Lakes shootings is getting some play, but nothing near what Columbine did. I think, in some respects, part of that is because school shooting aren’t as shocking as there were when Columbine occurred. While the Red Lake shootings are sad and tragic, what’s even more tragic is that our news agencies don’t consider it worthy of the full multiple-day spotlight such an event once would have generated.
I think the thing hanging me up on the Native American Nazi is that I’m thinking in terms of traditional Nazi. Such a combination would result in a good deal of self-hatred, I’d imagine. I do know that there’s a concern among the tribal elders that the young are embracing a modern mindset, rather than a traditional tribal mindset, but that’s really nothing new. Reservations have almost always faced this issue. But, in large part thanks to the BIA forcing kids on reservations to attend public schools, the middle generation no longer has a tie to the traditional ways of the tribe.
Bush picked Bill Donaldson as his golden boy to be the SEC head.
So Bush continues his track record of appointing the unqualified, the ethically challenged, and outright criminals into the highest ranks of our government.
I was exaggerrating when I said just a day’s coverage…but probably not by much.
There are many factors that go into what makes a story hot or not and a simple calculation of how many people were affected doesn’t do the trick. Bangaldesh lost more than 130,000 in April 1991 from a cyclone but I’ll bet the fire that killed 100 at a Great White concert got more airplay–can’t resist a video that shows before, after and during.
And yes, if it affects people in this country it means more to the average viewer. Hëll, if the far greater numbers of those killed in the various wars we are not involved with got equal attention to the number of American dead and wounded in Iraq, I suspectmembers of Democratunderground would claim it was a nefarious plot to draw attention away from the Iraq war (some of the crazies there think taht the latest earthquake was designed to draw attention away from Schiavo, which, by the way, was all trmped up to draw attention away from social security. Or something.
Politics can play a role in what gets reported and what does not. Some of us were discussing the late Bob Casey a few threads back…or maybe it was this one, hard to keep track. Anyway, one of the stories I came across was that, after being denied a chance to give a speech at the Democrat convention, the Village Voice set up a debate between Casey and others at a public forum. The debate never took place because a group of left wing activists shouted him down and refused to let him speak.
This got little national attention. I’m guessing…just guessing mind you…that if the governor of a major state found himself unable to exercise his free speech because of a group of fanatical right wingers it might make national news.
Of course, this was before the web, Fox news, bloga and all the other new sources. It’s become harder to spike stories, at least for those with enough ambition to type letters into google.
I think I’m with you on the “local angle” playing into how much play a story gets. I don’t know the number of Americans killed by the tsunami…was it even in the hundreds? I sort of think it was a couple hundred, but that seems high to me. Point being, if it were just 300,000 non-American dead, it wouldn’t have gotten the weeks and weeks of coverage it has. And even then, many of the news stories were of the “tens of thousands dead, but we’ll focus on this one American couple because they’re American” vein.
Which I think is yet another reason why the Red Lake story isn’t sticking out…it didn’t happen to (what many would consider) “real” Americans. And understand, I say that from the perspective of being of Native blood. Native Americans are possible even MORE Americans than those of European descent, but I think the general view of them is as an outsider class. The general TV viewer can sympathize, on some level, with the American tourist caught up in a tsunami. They have a sense of commonality. I don’t think many general Americans have an understanding of what it means to be Native. There’s a disconnect there, a sense of foreign-ness.
Bush picked Bill Donaldson as his golden boy to be the SEC head. The SEC (for anybody who doesn’t know) is supposed to be a watchdog against fraud by Wall Street firms. Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette, that Bill was the CEO of, was under investigation by the SEC for fraud and has history of doing things that got it fined as for back as the early 90’s. Cases against them and details of fines can be found through the Wall Street Journal, Forbes fine tracker & the findlaw websites case histories.
Interesting…but it’s not clear from what you write whether or not Donaldson was CEO of the company when it was fined or even investigated. My understanding is that he was CEO only until 1973, though Molly Ivans, puzzlingly, referred to him as the current CEO in one of her critiques.
Of course, to those who see a Bush under every bed, that won’t matter, but I’m just puzzled why this ther was so little mention of these supposed acts of malfeasance when he was chosen.
While this may or may not be true, you have no clue of the man or his character, only his actions as reported in 1 instance.
His actions prove that he’s an idiot.
You forgot to follo-up on the part about grandstanding. My original point was focused only on conviction, by the way.
I didn’t forget it. I just don’t care. Idiots can have conviction.
What this moron and other like him did by running in front of the police and all but shouting “arrest me!” is cause disruption at the hospice. Lest we forget, Terri Shiavo is not the only patient at this place. Other patients have family members that might want to visit them, too. There’s been at least report of a woman who couldn’t get into the hospice before her father died because of idiots creating a circus by their grandstanding. I have no respect for these people. They may lie to themselves that they’re doing something out of some great conviction, but all they’re really doing is making a pathetic plea for attention.
Idiots.
Don’t read Molly.
Donaldson was CEO and Co-founder. Once he left the CEO spot he continued an association with them for years afterward. That howerver is not really the point.
Bush hand picked this guy (who was a Skull & Bones brother to pummle a dead horse)to head the SEC while the firm he cofounded and that still used his name and employed old friends was under investigation and had pending court cases that would go before the SEC. Now, basic 101 tells you that you don’t put someone in charge of something like that when they have a vested interest or a personal connection. I can work a case for weeks and have a personal connection pop up and…. poof…. I’m off the case. Conflict of interest. Will I do my job or play CYA for my buddies? You don’t take the chance because it could taint the case and damage the outcome no matter how it turns out. Same basic concept here.
I will give Donaldson credit though. He has done a bit better then I would have thought. He even came up with some ideas that might have been good but the Business Roundtable (the lobbying front for CEOs of America’s largest corporations)went nuts and Bush backed them against the SEC to keep many regs weaker.
As for when he was appointed… There was public debate. I want to say that it was Jennings on the national news that was the first I saw of it. But if you look at the time frame (late 2002 to early 2003) you’ll see that there was some stuff going on in the Middle East that was eating up most the prime time coverage and debate. Easy to miss it I guess if you weren’t into the pain created by almost 14 hour a day news watching.
Did anyone else catch South Park??? My God, they must be able to punch the script into a computer and have it spit out animation in a few hours…amazing. Also, funny as all hëll.
Den:What this moron and other like him did by running in front of the police and all but shouting “arrest me!” is cause disruption at the hospice. Lest we forget, Terri Shiavo is not the only patient at this place. Other patients have family members that might want to visit them, too. There’s been at least report of a woman who couldn’t get into the hospice before her father died because of idiots creating a circus by their grandstanding. I have no respect for these people. They may lie to themselves that they’re doing something out of some great conviction, but all they’re really doing is making a pathetic plea for attention.
So you reply to my original statment without actually addressing its core point and follow -up with an inaccurate statement. Did you actually see news footage of the event that you are describing?
Fred
Fred: “Yo Bladdy, who is praising the guy? My statement was made about respect for convictions. “
THen you are stupider than I thought.
Does that mean you respect the 9/11 hijackers who had even more conviction (they dies for their convictions)?
DOes that mean you admire these fûçkìņg morons who kill doctors that perform abortions and blow up clinics that perform abortions?
I suppose you admire and respect the fine members of the Nazi party and the KKK who hold their convictions so dear as well?
Stupid covictions aren’t to be respected, they’re to be admonished, ostracized and punished.
Fred: “Yo Bladdy, who is praising the guy? My statement was made about respect for convictions. “
Bladstar :
>THen you are stupider than I thought.
uh huh. Yet you are the one who constantly throws out insults to posters here and others who don’t agree with your way of seeing the world rather than discuss an issue using logic and sticking to the point.
>Does that mean you respect the 9/11 hijackers who had even more conviction (they dies for their convictions)?
I don’t admire the people. I don’t admire the motivation nor the action. Respect for a level of conviction is just that.
>DOes that mean you admire these fûçkìņg morons who kill doctors that perform abortions and blow up clinics that perform abortions?
Oh yeah.
>I suppose you admire and respect the fine members of the Nazi party and the KKK who hold their convictions so dear as well?
Uh huh. Perhaps having someone nearby read my previous statements to you would be helpful.
>Stupid covictions aren’t to be respected, they’re to be admonished, ostracized and punished.
You appear to be confusing conviction with action. Conviction can be defined as an unshakable belief in something. Someone with strong convictions on a subject may do what they feel is the “right” thing to do, regardless of consequence to themselves…. including the ones you’ve just listed.
I’ll repeat it, any beliefs that strong in influence should be respected. If not only so that one is prepared to identify and respond to actions if and when they occur. We are seeing the mistake of not respecting strong convictions over in Iraq. Our government thought that these rebels would fold…. they are willing to fight to the death to keep the U.S. out of power there. The issue of whether they are “right” or “wrong” is really moot when looking at the level of commitment there.
Fred, I think part of the issue is your use of the word “respect.” It can be used, and is used by many, as a synonym for “admire.” So when you say you respect the convictions of certain people, some would interpret your statement as saying you admire them. And to be honest, when I first read your statement, the whole “do you also respect the convictions of Nazis?” thought passed through my mind as well.
I think your further explanations show that you’re using the word more like “one should respect the power of nature.” As in, be aware of it’s power, be wary of the danger it can pose, and don’t do things (like build homes on hills with no root structure to prevent mud slides) that will eventually lead to nature demonstrating why it deserves to be respected. Or, respect the mother bear and her cubs, because if you don’t, and you get too close, she’ll show you why you should have.
It’s more a sense of be aware of the potential harm something could cause.
Although, your original phrase was contains none of that. Looking it over again just now, I can see how it could be read either way. It’s either “wow, I admire a guy that’s willing to get arrested for something he believes in,” or “wow, you really have to be wary of guys crazy enough to get arrested for something this stupid.”
Common usage of “respect” doesn’t make it clear which one you intended.
Well, it just hit the news–the poor woman finally died.
Sad story all around. The AP is reporting thatthe parents were denied the chance to be there at the moment of her death. I don’t know, I’ve been more on the husbands side than not butthat seems pretty šhìŧŧÿ, even given the amount of acrimony.
Anyway, onto happier news, one must hope.
Bobb:
>Although, your original phrase was contains none of that. Looking it over again just now, I can see how it could be read either way. It’s either “wow, I admire a guy that’s willing to get arrested for something he believes in,” or “wow, you really have to be wary of guys crazy enough to get arrested for something this stupid.”
>Common usage of “respect” doesn’t make it clear which one you intended.
Bobb, I appreciate your observation and can see your point. I apologize for any ambiguity. I still have to wonder about the jump that some have made between respect for a conviction being misinterpreted for agreement and support of actions taken. The only way that this occurred was in changing the content of my actual post.
Fred
I think it’s an extension of the verb form of respect, “1 a : to consider worthy of high regard : ESTEEM b : to refrain from interfering with”. Using 1a, worthy of high regard/esteem goes hand-in-hand with admire.
Besides, if it had come from Democratic Senate staffers, I have no doubt they’d be able to get the correct letterhead.
The problem with the supposed memo is that there is NO identifying marks. There is no letterhead, no signature, no nothing. What is true is that there were typos and it noted the wrong bill number. What is true is that someone was giving these memos to some Republicans, but there is absolutley no one who is identifying the source.
Yet even today I read stories where people attack the Rebpublicans because of the contents of this supposed memo. Even though Republicans have clearly indicated that they do not agree with large portions of the memo. The media has done such a poor job of accurately reporting this information that it is assumed as fact by many that these memos are true.
Which leads us to this whole case. The fact that something is repeated doesn’t make it true. Yes, this goes for both sides, but forgive me if the example above causes me to doubt the ability of the general media to get things right. There is far more bias towards the left than towards the right.
Here is a decent article about the whole memo situation:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11250-2005Mar29.html
Terri is now dead, but this is not over. This may well be a watershed event that will have ramifications for years to come.
Iowa Jim
Jim’s right, we have no idea what ripple effect this event will cause.
I hear that there are bills being talked about, both state and federal, that would criminalize the act of removing a feeding tube from a PVS patiend. If such a law is passed and does not contain an exception for a living will, this could totally remove the traditional power of a guardian to make such choices on behalf of their ward. I see all kinds of bad laws being passed as a reactionary measure to this, despite the fact that the public has expressed overwhelming support for such matters to remain private family issues.
We could also see an impact in the next elections. If current reports out saying that evangelicals provided 1 out of every 3 votes for Bush, and that support now vanishes because of the perceived “failure” of the government to oppose Terri’s death, we could see a significant shift in the composition of the congress in 18 months.
I hear that there are bills being talked about, both state and federal, that would criminalize the act of removing a feeding tube from a PVS patiend.
The point has always been that there was NOT a living will in this case. The point has also been that there is divided opinion about her actual state and that the husband refused to allow her to have treatment for at least the last 3 years.
Even conservatives want to keep this primarily a private issue, but there has to be a standard that still protects the rights and health of the patient when the patient cannot do so. In this particular case, there was reason to question whether that line was crossed.
Iowa Jim
The point has also been that there is divided opinion about her actual state and that the husband refused to allow her to have treatment for at least the last 3 years.
That’s not a point; that’s an assertion (which has not been sufficiently supported in my opinion; I’ll take the seven or eight people who actually examined her AND the CAT scan over the people who haven’t).
The point has always been that there was NOT a living will in this case.
No, that’s NOT the point. The point is in establishing the wishes of Terry Schiavo. The best way to do so, of course, is a living will, but that is not the only way.
Actually, a living will is only one way, and not always the best. Just like a regular will, they can be challenged, and not all states will recognize them. It’s just one more piece of evidence to put before a court in situations that are contested.
My impression from the Schiavo case was that the husband presented a statement as Terri’s guardian that her desire was to not be sustained in a PVS condition through a feeding tube. He made that statement as her husband, based on conversations he had with her from before the accident. While this would normally be hearsay evidence, it is allowed because of the guardian and husband status. I believe there were also other people allowed to make statements that they had had similar conversations with Terri, supporting this claim.
As far as I can tell, the only evidence Terri’s parents could offer was “we raised her not to believe in suicide, and we just *know* she wouldn’t want to die this way.” They may also have had some witnesses, but I’m not sure.
Point being, the court pretty much made the only decision it could: In the absence of credible evidence to the contrary, and also absent any “funny business” motive on the part of the guardian, significant deference is given to the decisions of the guardian.
And the fact that the husband allowed no treatment for the past 3 years totally ignores the extensive treatment efforts he did allow and in fact demand over the suggestions of his doctors for the first 7 years. In Texas, after a patient fails to show signs of improving after 7 years of treatment, most likely the hospital would have discontinued treatment OVER the objections of the family.
Just imagine how dámņìņg this case could have been had Terri been a resident of Texas. Bush’s own law would have dictated the removal of life support years ago.
Jim, there was a record of 8 years of Florida state court, including appeals to the state supreme court, that decided that very issue. And at every turn, the court was satisfied that Terri’s wishes were in fact fairly represented by her legal guardian. That’s all the protection we need…it took 8 years from the time the husband decided to end treatment until today, when she can fully go to God. How much longer is appropriate before we can be as assured as we’re going to be that her rights aren’t being abrogated?
If such a law is passed, here’s what I can guarantee you will happen within 10 years of it’s passage: there will be another case like this, where the family disagrees on the termination of treatment. There WILL be a living will involved, saying the patient would want treatment terminated. Tubes will be removed, and the opposing family will call the police and have the doctors, nurses, and guardian arrested, claiming that the living will is fraudulent.
After that, no doctor will remove life support short of receiving a court order to do so. In “erring on the side of life,” we will have created a system where even those that actually DO want to pass on are prevented from doing so.
So you reply to my original statment without actually addressing its core point
I addressed your core point. It’s funny that you think if you keep repeating the word “convictions” it will change my mind. It won’t. The guy’s convictions do not impress me. He’s an idiot. Period.
and follow -up with an inaccurate statement.
So, you’re an expert on what reports are accurate and what aren’t?
Did you actually see news footage of the event that you are describing?
Not everyone gets their news from the idiot box. I read it on the wire service. Since you obviously didn’t see the report, you’re in no position to judge its accuracy.
I’ll repeat it, any beliefs that strong in influence should be respected.
I disagree. The beliefs of idiots, no matter how strong they are to them, should always me mocked and ridiculed.
It’s the only way they’ll learn.
Den, I think you should make a public exception to those idiots with strong convictions that also carry large weapons, and exhibit the capacity to use them. Secretly mock those folks.
Ugh. Ðámņ typos.
That should read “should always BE mocked and ridiculed.”
Even though Republicans have clearly indicated that they do not agree with large portions of the memo. The media has done such a poor job of accurately reporting this information that it is assumed as fact by many that these memos are true.
The memo to me is a nonissue. I don’t care who wrote it or why. I’m more dismayed in the way that members of Congress (and I’ll include the Democrats who voted for the measure as well as the Republicans) and the President have grandstanded and used this issue to engage in naked pandering.
And it’s not over:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3111348
Now DeLay wants to use this as an excuse to attack judges who don’t rule to his liking. No doubt this will add fuel to the “nuclear option” argument of destroying the filibuster in the Senate.
The Founding Fathers created an idependent judiciary for a reason: To shield justice from political pandering. Too bad our current regime in Washington only believes in political pandering.
nd it’s not over:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3111348
Now DeLay wants to use this as an excuse to attack judges who don’t rule to his liking.
What a hypocrite.
Bobb,
“We could also see an impact in the next elections. If current reports out saying that evengelicals provides 1 out of every 3 votes for Bush”
You mean TWO out of every 3 Bush voters actually voted on something other than being “fanatically evengelical” instead of the 100% some on this board make it out to be…yowzers! That means Bush voters – including, undeniably, some ‘evengelicals’, voted for him on other issues! What, oh what, will the Democrats do?!
“and that support now vanishes because of the perceived “failure” of the government to oppose Terri’s death, we could see a significant shift in the composition of the Congress in 18 months.”
Right. Because Terri’s plight was such a forefront issue in 2004. And because evangelicals will ignore issues like abortion, gay marriage, the makeup of the Supreme Court, stem cell research, human cloning and stay obsessed with Terri. And because the vast majority of those who would let this issue decide their vote won’t give their ele3cted rep credit for trying. And because a majority of Congressmen in the Congressional Black Caucus actually VOTED WITH THE REPUBLICANS. And because Iowa kingmaker Senator Tom Harkin will use the issue against Republican opponents, even though he strongly supported letting her live.
well, if one third of Bush voters decide to not vote next election, the democrats will win by about 28 Meeelion votes.