Everytime I see that word, all I can hear is the exchange in “Mystery Men.” You know: “We’ve always been each other’s greatest nemesisi…nemesises…neme…” “Nemeses.”
So anyway, just came back from “ST:N.” Thing is, I keep hearing that folks went to see it with lots of expectations and came away disappointed. Consequently, I went into it with no expectations and lots of negative buzz in my ear, and came away pretty much satisfied by it. Yes, there were elements of “Wrath of Khan” in the second half. Then again, “WOK” was an open rehash of “Moby Ðìçk,” so I didn’t have much problem with that. And there was lots of stuff I did like, including Riker finally getting to kick some butt, the performances of Ron Perlman and Tom Hardy, and the way all the regulars fit into their Trek personas like comfortable shoes.
And I *thought* I spotted Wesley Crusher at screen left during the wedding toast.
Personally, the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident…I wouldn’t mind seeing that at all.
PAD
• 
What’s wrong with people? I ask myself.
Why was Wes there? Why was Worf in uniform, Lore this and Lore that.
Because it didn’t need to be explained! Go with it baby!
I wondered about the hair thing as well. But then I GOT OVER IT.
Shinzon was chilling, Data bit the dust and Troi kicked some mental ášš.
Picard was on crack and they lost another helmsman.
That’s all I ask!
I’ve seen it three times, sho nuff.
Good stuff.
I’ll say this about Nemesis, it was better than Episode II.
At least NEMESIS had some soul to it. AOTC had less soul than…than…šhìŧ, almost everything.
Of course with the ending, I wondered if B-4 should be named “Vision.”
Personally, the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident…I wouldn’t mind seeing that at all.
I would like to at least read about it…since I can not writw good….hint…I always want more Worf, we could have had three seconds of dealing with the triangle. At least Worf saying something kind to Troi while they were firing phasers together. “Stay strong Troi, Break him like you broke my heart….”
Like most of you I went in not expecting much, but unlike most of you I went out having not received much. To be honest i’ve always had a problem wirh TNG and that’s the fact that there’s so little action in it. The movie has more certainly but what really irks me is the way Picard and co are always running from a fight (e.g when they pick up B4 and the bad guys show up, when they run away at the end into the mist or nebula or whatever, and at least two other occasions I’ve forgotten). I know it’s down to the PC nature of TNG but they’ve got the Enterprise, if not the flagship of the fleet then certainly one of the best, and everytime they should stand and deliver they cut and run. I guess in the future discretion is the ONLY part of valour. It’s just so unheroic. Bring back Shatner with a zimmer frame!!!!!
The Enterprise is the flagship.
And the Soong android prototype was named B4, not B9.
**Data had to be killed off, because
androids don’t age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play
the part any more**
Actually, as was shown in “To All Good Things” Data can alter his appearance to simulate aging if he chooses, which he might so as to not upset the crewmembers he is surrounded by daily who grow steadily older while he does not.
The real reason was the Brent Spiner, much like Nimoy back around the time of WoK, wanted out of the franchise as he had grown tired of playing Data after nearly 20 years.
I think his aging in appearance program was shown back in that episode where he met his mother. Also, he’s played Data for 15 years, not 20. 🙂
I think it would be interesting for PAD to write the next Trek movie. I would also like for them to allow the movie to go 3 hours to get all the details of the novelization in it, not to mention the intersting spins that PAD would most likley come up with.
Luigi, great post, very thoughtful.
I guess what I was trying to say earlier was this: Nemesis wasn’t a bad film, but it could have been so much better with so little effort (less than a minute of bits of dialogue to explain things that would cause ecstatic droolings in the Trekker fanbase and not detract in any way from the movie for everyone else).
BTW, I don’t not watch Enterprise because of the crappy theme, but because there is little character development (Archer is literally no different today than he was at the pilot), and no sense of the great things that SHOULD be happening in Trek’s history. For example, DS9 re-established that the Eugenics Wars and Khan Singh happened in the mid-22nd Century, almost on top of the Romulan War the established the Neutral Zone. And do they plan to give us the birth of the Federation? Those things by themselves should provide an incredible epic story arc — but no, we’re getting crap stories that were stale when Voyager did them.
So yes, they do need to fire Berman and Braga and Piller. The franchise needs a new showrunner…someone with an eye for continuity and characterization and epic season-long arcs…someone who after May will have a lot of time on his hands…Joss Whedon. Think about it…
Just wanted to add to the comments about Worf. I also don’t know why he’s on the ship, except maybe the lame excuse is that he’s visiting for the wedding. However, he was more of a major character in scenes that were cut but which were kept in JM Dillard’s novelization. [Novelization SPOILER] The subplot was that Worf had a racial resentment of Romulans because his parents were killed at Khitomer. Then there is the cooridor fight scene that was kept leading to Riker’s fight. However, one of the Remans slips away and is followed by Worf. Worf gets wounded and Dr Crusher shoots the Reman, but Crusher can’t figure out how to heal him. He is eventually cured by a Romulan doctor, and begins to put aside his feeling against Romulans. Hope that part is included on the DVD.
Okay, to take it along the path of Wrath of Khan, yet give it it’s own spin, have Picard struggling with uber-empty-nest-syndrome. As each of the team begins to go their own way, Picard realizes what he’s losing. To top it off, Troy is pregnant and THAT’S why she and Riker finally tie the knot, and Riker discovers that becoming a father changes his perspective on going into harms way (not a lot, but enough to comment on it and perhaps affect his command style a bit… just enough for Picard to notice).
Meanwhile, Data has found some new subprogramming that makes him less the innocent naife, and more the commander he should be.
THAT’S when they discover a teenage clone of Picard who probably has some sensitive information about the looming Romulan aggression. The Enterprise is tasked to bring that clone out no matter the cost.
Picard subconsciously sees this as a way to claim family, and it brings out a desperate side of him we’ve never seen before. He starts taking risks, discovers he can’t rely on Riker or fully trust the new uber-Data, so we have in-fighting, internal conflict, and some big questions to be answered.
Eventually we discover the clone is part of a plot and he is mentally manipulating Picard into rash action to foment the war the Romulans have been looking for. Unbeknownst to the Federation, the Romulons were fomenting the discord displayed in Insurrection and they just needed a final rash action on the part of the Fed Flagship to drive the final nail. Data unravels all of this, and martyrs himself to unravel the Romulan’s schemes. The Deanna scene where she mentally pummels the Remen remains, but she does it with mastery and confidence rather than the “oh, this hurts, what a migraine!” expression. They may all be going their own way with new beginnings, but by golly they will ALWAYS be a team.
That’s the movie they should have made.
What bothers me most about Star Trek lately is that the producers seem to be trying their hardest to produce a “hit” movie/TV show with a known popular product, without giving the fans what they want to see – the popular stuff!
For my money, there are two ways to go to make Star Trek popular again:
A.) Create a show or movie that combines the “best” elements from the past incarnations. “Generations” cheated. We (at least I) did not want a movie about Kirk and Picard meeting in a magical Nexus to defeat a previously unknown foe. “We” wanted the crew of the Enterprise 1701-A to TEAM UP with the crew of the Enterprise 1701-D! Think of all the character moments missed. Both captains and their crews working together to overcome some galaxy-threatening evil. Kirk/Picard, Data/Spock, Geordi/Scotty, Troi/Uhura, Sulu/Riker, Worf/Chekov? – Well, you get the idea. (Sort of like a JLA/JSA team up for all you comic fans out there…) They could have done a “time travel” thing and had the original crew appear shortly before/after the events of ST:VI. But we didn’t get that, we got “Generations”… Now’s the chance to give us what we want – a combined crew from the past. Well, recent past anyway. Riker and Troi on a new ship. Throw in some newbies. Then add The Doctor from Voyager, possibly Tom Paris at the helm. If not Geordi in engineering, what about O’Brien or Torres? How about a descendant of the Andorian Sharan from “Enterprise”? Tuvok? Worf? The possibilities are endless and obviously open for debate. (maybe too open…) The exploration of the Gamma quadrant – tying it to DS9, would allow for new adventures as well as ties to the old series’ continuities. Guest appearances. Special events – “Tonight, on a very special Star Trek: Titan – the return of Captain Picard!!!” It might actually be fun again!
B.) Do a series of two or three Star Trek TV movies a year from various time periods in Star Trek history. Riker and Troi on the Titan. Sulu and the Excelsior. DS9 and Voyager follow-ups. The return of Sisko. How the hëll Janeway got to be an Admiral! What happened to 7 of 9 and The Doctor upon their return to the Alpha Quadrant. Odo. Thomas Riker. And many others that I’m sure you all could come up with. (I know many of these themes have been or are going to be addressed in novels, but it would be fun to see them live!)
Anyway – that’s what I’d like to see. And it’s why I read PAD’s stuff, because he likes to pay tribute to the past and have fun with it while going on in new directions. Just seems that by flying with the excuse of “not wanting to repeat themselves” the producers of Star Trek are missing a lot of opportunities to keep the franchise going. “Star Trek” to me is the idea of a star ship out in space, exploring new worlds and having exciting adventures with characters we care about! I would hate to see it fade away…
Thanks for reading.
Absolutely fascinating how much traffic this thread has had. Even after all these years, after everything that may or may not have been done to dampen our enthusiasm, we can still muster the energy and concern to debate all this Trek stuff. If Paramount really is losing us as Enterprise creeps along, they are going to be kissing goodbye to perhaps the most dedicated bunch of fans this side of Middle Earth.
Posted by Helz:
[Enterprise shows] no sense of the great things that SHOULD be happening in Trek’s history. For example, DS9 re-established that the Eugenics Wars and Khan Singh happened in the mid-22nd Century, almost on top of the Romulan War the established the Neutral Zone. And do they plan to give us the birth of the Federation? Those things by themselves should provide an incredible epic story arc…
For what it’s worth, it seems as if the Paramount PTB have chosed to leave the Eugenics Wars to the Greg Cox novels, but Enterprise has dropped hints about the Romulan Star Empire (and has shown Romulan vessels) and the founding of the Federation, which threads might get picked up in the future.
I agree the show is not arc-heavy, but there are bits and pieces of continuity (both episode-to-episode and in terms of connection to larger Trek-lore) that do pique interest. (And the running concept of a “temporal cold war” provides a great way to write off any minor continuity glitches: “Hey, them temporal cold warriors changed the timeline a bit!”) Enterprise isn’t great and isn’t terribly distinctive, but it’s not awful either–and it’s early yet; TNG and DS9 didn’t find their sea (space?) legs until the third season or so, so I’m willing to stick it out a bit longer.
“Just seems that by flying with the excuse of “not wanting to repeat themselves” the producers of Star Trek are missing a lot of opportunities to keep the franchise going.”
Yes, exactly. And, irony of ironies, despite Berman continuing with his mantra of making a different kind of Star Trek (i.e. not repeating themselves), they are repeating themselves more than ever! Pretty sad that a show that has been airing off-and-on (mostly on these days) for thirty years can’t make good use of an established fictional universe that, with the exception of Tolkien’s Middle-earth, is the largest and most diverse I can think of. I know that doing a host of “sequels” would be tiring, but there are a lot of places where the show was gone once successfully, and then never revisited. Star Trek has so often been about that ship that flies around the galaxy solving people’s problems. Obviously there are a lot of places out there that got “quick fixes” that could be readdressed. That’s why I found DS9 was so successful, instead of solving the problem and running away they were forced to deal with long-term issues and solve problems over the course of years instead of hours and days.
And relatively non-continuous storytelling may have been all the rage in the 60s and 70s, but such is no longer the case. So-called “anthology” series like The Twilight Zone are one thing, but in a time when science fiction has produced such miraculous (albeit fairly low-budget) storytelling such as “Babylon 5,” how can I, as a viewer, really sink my teeth into Enterprise? The Temporal Cold War is turning out just to be something interesting to go back to once or twice a season, but it needs to be pursued more vigorously and progressively. And what about Shran, the Andorian, or Silik (or even the mysterious Future Humanoid)? They both have the potential to be very complex continuing villains, which is something the show needs. We need a “Dukat” or a “Weyoun.” The closest Voyager ever got to that was Seska, and that says a lot about why Voyager never made it.
Speaking of continuity, am I the only person who’s wondering what the hëll happened to Cutler? The writers included her in arguably the most successful installment of the first season, “Dear Doctor,” giving her a relational tie to Dr. Phlox, and throughout the second season she hasn’t been back. What kind of storytelling is that? In “The Catwalk,” I kept waiting for a scene in which they run into Cutler helping Phlox in his “sickbay.”
Sorry if this went too far off-topic, but it’s fascinating to read through this thread and see the varying views people have on why Star Trek is running out of steam. And there can’t be any doubt that it *is* running out of steam.
Well, I guess there’s always the possibility of having a new cast play the original crew in movies. Or a Pike series. Ray Liotta does look a lot like Jeffrey Archer. Not in Narc, mind you, but most of the time.
I gather that a lot of the character bits and explanatory lines were shot for Nemesis and may show up on the DVD. I hope so. I was waiting for Riker’s oft-reported farewell line to the Viceroy (“Don’t worry. Hëll is dark.” or something to that effect), and I’m still waiting.
Cheers, Jon
I only saw the pilot of Enterprise.
You who continue to view it, a question: have they explained yet why pre-Kirk Klingons look and act like Next Generation-era Klingons? That bugged the heck out of me, especially considering the way the Klingon makeover was addressed in that hilarious “Tribbles” episode of DS9.
Posted by Jason:
I only saw the pilot of Enterprise.
You who continue to view it, a question: have they explained yet why pre-Kirk Klingons look and act like Next Generation-era Klingons? That bugged the heck out of me, especially considering the way the Klingon makeover was addressed in that hilarious “Tribbles” episode of DS9.
No, Enterprise hasn’t explained the Klingon’s physical appearance. (I don’t quite see what really needs to be explained about the way TOS-Klingons and TNG-Klingons act that can’t just be chalked up to individual characters’ personalities and the general evolution of the Klingon/Federation relationship)
Anyway, while Enterprise might get around to it in the future, I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply never did. After all, no answer is ever going to be truly satisfying, and the meta reason (irrelevant to continuity as it may be) is very understandable: the producers can afford cooler makeup now than in the 1960s!
Helz, thank you for the kind words about my review.
However, I don’t think DS9 “reestablished” the the Eugenics Wars took place in the 22nd century. That line by Admiral Bennet was mostly likely a mistake. Canon is quite clear that they took place in the 20th.
But thanks again.
I enjoyed the ship to ship battles, but the mind boggles that with so many people involved in this movie – so many plot holes can yawn open.
Data gets ONE beam-me-up Scotty button?! He had room in his forearm for TWO. At least he should’ve brought TWO and had ONE shot to pieces, THEN Picard’s balls get bigger when he says “We’ll find a way out together.”
Two – Worf. I don’t believe that in the PC future of TNG our dune buggies all have rear mounted laser cannons. I WOULD’VE enjoyed a chance for Worf to produce his personal laser cannon HE BROUGHT WITH HIM just in case there was trouble.
How many minutes does it take Picard to wake up from his trance after his clone has been skewered. The pacing of that climax was… slow.
The minute the Data clone B4 showed up, I KNEW Data would sacrifice himself — ergo, it was a half hearted sacrifice on the part of the Nemesis creative team. Better to have NO CLONE, then the sacrifice is daring… like Spock’s in WOK.
The enemy ship’s shields were at 75% when the Enterprise rammed it and did serious damage. With this in mind I think all Federation Star Ships should have ’72 Ford Pinto’s stapled to the front of them in case they ever run into superior forces with shields at 75% again. Or maybe keep a kid with slingshot stationed in front of the ship. “Shields are down, deploy Eddie Guthrie!!!”
(pant pant pant) Okay, I’m done.
Yeah! See! Wasn’t so bad now was it? I thought First Contact was too much Khan rehash and this one did suffer from some of that too. But hey, it was good trek. I’d love to see a Titan show too.
Just got back from “Gangs of New York.” Movie of the year right there, though definately not for the faint of heart as blood and gore abound.
Shawn
My boy took me to this one, I’m not a big Star Trek fan. I didn’t think it was terrible.
But the start in a ‘Senate’ and trade talks….I wondered why all SF movies have to start with governing problems lately. HAs someone writen a book saying the way to get kids into a SF movie is to make it about interplanetary trade?
It is indeed interesting how much attn this thread is getting…
For the record, I liked TNG latest outing in screen too, it wasn’t their best but better then “Insurrection” in my opinion.
*spoiler* (sorta)
I laughed out loud at Data’s greeting at the wedding “Welcome Ladies, Gentleman, and invited trans-gendered guests” or something to that effect. I think it was because it felt like it was such a “Data” thing to say and to me it was like hearing from an old friend whom I havent heard from in too long…oh and I spotted Wesley in that scene also…
I think someone posted a comment about a “shout out” to PAD for the “Imzadi” thing…Where as he does deserve the shout out because Mr. David definitely defined the name for us (and did a great job of it too!)
I thought I remember Troi using it on the very first episode of TNG…
” (I don’t quite see what really needs to be explained about the way TOS-Klingons and TNG-Klingons act”
***I probably put that too vaguely. What I meant was, the Klingons on Enterprise not only have the appearance of TNG Klingons (the weird stuff on their heads), but the same clothing, the same apparent cultural trappings. Which doesn’t make sense, when the Klingons of Kirk’s day don’t. The “Tribbles” episode of DS9 established that some change did occur between Kirk’s time and Picard’s to make the Klingons look discernibly different. So for Enterprise’s Klingons to look and dress the way they do is just a glaring flaw, in my opinion.
“Anyway, while Enterprise might get around to it in the future, I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply never did. After all, no answer is ever going to be truly satisfying”
***I agree, but only because Enterprise — as I see it — messed up. But as far as a satisfying explanation for how the Klingons got from Original Trek to Next Gen, have you ever read Chris Claremont’s Star Trek Graphic Novel “Debt of Honor”? It offered what I thought was an ingeniously clever explanation for the change. (It’s also just a great Star Trek story in its own right. Definitely worth picking up.)
***I wouldn’t mind if Enterprise proved me wrong, though, and DID actually have a similarly clever explanation of up its sleeve.
I laughed out loud at Data’s greeting at the wedding “Welcome Ladies, Gentleman, and invited trans-gendered guests” or something to that effect.<<
I liked that as well. Made me think that Burgoyne was in attendance.
Evan B. – The actress that plays Cutler got offered a role doing some other show (I forget which) and so probably won’t be back on ENT.
it wasn’t terrible, it wasn’t brilliant – it what trek has sadly become – mediocre
as a no-brain movie it was quite enjoyable, a bit of drama, a car chase, a battle. you could have used the script to do a movie with dolph lundgren in and it would have been relegated to a superior straight-to-video film.
i enjoyed it, just not trek-enjoyed it…
My biggest problem -other than the ‘Wrath of Khan’ ending- was the fact that Shinzon just seemed more petulant than villianous to me.
Well that *is* very sad news about Cutler. I can honestly say she was one of my favorite characters, never mind the regulars!
Posted by Jason
I agree, but only because Enterprise — as I see it — messed up [the Klingon question]. But as far as a satisfying explanation for how the Klingons got from Original Trek to Next Gen, have you ever read Chris Claremont’s Star Trek Graphic Novel “Debt of Honor”? It offered what I thought was an ingeniously clever explanation for the change. (It’s also just a great Star Trek story in its own right. Definitely worth picking up.)
It’s been a while since I read “Debt of Honor,” but I do remember enjoying the story. If I recall correctly, the explanation that story gave for the Klingons was the the very-humanoid Klingons we had seen throughout TOS were one Klingon race which was overthrown when the lumpy-headed imperial Klingon race came to power. Which is, sure, a good enough explanation, but one that ya gotta admit is a little less satisfying in light of subsequent TNG and DS9 stories.
The less problematic one is that Kahless in TNG is shown to be a lumpy-headed Klingon when in TOS he had been shown to be a more humanoid version. (Of course, you can explain that away since the TOS Kahless was a creation drawn from Kirk’s memory.)
Then there’s the fact that Kor, Kahless, and Kang–all shown to be humanoid Klingons in TOS–later show up in DS9 in all their lumpy-headed glory.
Of course, you can come up with some something to explain all of this, but unless there’s a real good story linked to that explanation, I can understand why giving a canonical explanation isn’t exactly a priority for the creators.
Anyway, as you point out that Trials and Tribble-ations episode of DS9 does establish that there’s some explanation out there in the Star Trek universe, but the fact that Enterprise hasn’t dealt with it yet doesn’t necessarily mean that Enterprise has “messed up” After all, whatever explanation it is–Klingon Cultural Revolution (and counter-revolution, race-wide genetic restructuring, or whatever–may just have happened after the time Enterprise depicts.
(Digression: y’know, what bugged me most about that scene in Trials and Tribble-ations was that it was humans O’Brien and Bashir who were perplexed by the humanoid Klingons around them, asking Worf to explain. If there really is an explanation to be had in the Star Trek universe, it seems to me implausible that humans and the Federation wouldn’t know it. From a fanboy continuity perspective, the scene would have worked better if it had been Odo asking, “Wait? Those are Klingons? Why aren’t they lumpy like you, Worf?” Then Worf could say, “We don’t like to discuss it.” and O’Brien and Bashir could just smile knowingly in silence. But I digress…)
What makes StarTrek so great is that you can watch any single episode and enjoy the story, the action, and the effects.
This, I think, has been the aim of the movies, to be a great extra-long episode that appeals to general audicences (perhaps gaining new viewers for the television series).
Where Trek really has excelled has been in taking these individual episodes and joining them together to create a sense of Trek history, and to allow the audience to really get to know the characters. NextGen definitely did this the best, but even Voyager did better than most television. Compare the first few episodes of Voyager with the last few, notice anything? I find Harry Kim has really matured, Janeway has grown more confident in her abilities, Tom is less reckless, the doctor is more human, etc. And these changes took the entire series to occur, not just a single episode. This is the appeal of StarTrek.
Of course, Trek could be improved. I’d like to see more consistency. For instance, its hard to get to know T’Pol when you’re too busy trying to figure out who really made first contact with earth, or perhaps its hard to figure out why a smart guy like Picard wouldn’t be trying to simply turn off the ultimate weapon instead of destroying it and himself. Or, as I alluded to above, sometimes the concepts the writers want you to take for granted simply make you laugh.
But such is Trek, take it at face value.
Nemesis had a lot of wholes in its story line that made it hard to believe, yet it had good action and effects. Good movie, but not excellent.
The actress that plays Cutler got offered a role doing some other show (I forget which) and so probably won’t be back on ENT.
Well that *is* very sad news about Cutler. I can honestly say she was one of my favorite characters, never mind the regulars!
Sad, my heinie!! It means the lady is getting work, and, apparently, steady work. I say congratulations to her; if ENT wants to reprise the character, they can always recast.
It seems that Data’s “aging program” idea in “Inheritance” was scrapped after that episode. From that point on (in future timelines, etc) he was made to appear ageless. Even Spiner goes on to say Data was to remain ageless in appearance. I think the aging chip idea was swept under the rug.