Selling Out

Posted By: Peter DavidPosted On:

digresssmlOriginally published November 20, 1992, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #992

Talk about your non-issues (which of course, never has stopped me before about talking about your non-issues).

When it was first announced that Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Dave Sim would be writing for Spawn, a number of people on various computer boards and at conventions came to me with attitudes ranging from simple curiosity to almost burning indignation–and asked what I thought of this development.

And I kind of shrugged and said, “Well, I think it means that fans of Spawn will get to read some really well-written issues.” That was pretty much it.

Then we had Gary Groth in Comics Journal express dismay and shock at Moore’s participation in this endeavor, using a tone one would associate with, say, the Pope discovering Mother Teresa turning tricks on Broadway and 42nd. That’s to be expected of Groth.

But what surprised me was that no less than Dave Sim himself so felt the need to address the “situation” immediately that he actually wrote a guest editorial for CBG. He, too, had been deluged by people accusing him of selling out (no, I was not one of them, thank you very much) and was constrained to explain his motivations as if they needed explaining. Not only that, but he described at length how he was, in fact, not taking any money for it. So there, nyah nyah, you naysayers. Take that.

Now maybe I’m reading something into it that Dave didn’t intend, in which case, if I am, I apologize in advance. But what surprised me, you see, was that Dave seemed so defensive about the whole thing when, in fact, he had no need to be.

The concept of donating the money to the Legal Defense Fund is, naturally, noble. But it also was presented as final proof that Dave Sim had not “sold out”–when, in fact, the notion that Sim, Moore, Gaiman, or anyone, for that matter writing an issue of Spawn represents some sort of “selling out” is seriously ridiculous.

Even if Dave had kept the money–even if he’d bought a Rolls-Royce with it–it would not have mattered one bit. It’s still not selling out, because making money is not inherently evil, is not against the law, and does not automatically mean that you’ve packed up your morals and sent them to the Cote d’Azur for the winter.

It’s the whole “selling out” thing that I find so entertaining–because it seems to go back to the notion some people have that the only way one can remain artistically pure is if one is either (a) not widely popular or (b) poor. Preferably both.

I suppose we have some of the truly great artists in the past to blame for this. Ignoring the fact that most notable artists were scrambling for money (or wealthy patrons), just like the rest of us, some people in today’s audience feel that a true creator’s place is to be starving in a garret. And if the creator suddenly finds himself able to build a wing on the garret or install a sauna, it automatically cheapens him. Success equals diminished quality.

Let me make clear that I’m hardly talking about the entire audience for art, writing, and so on. But there is a definite sector of the population out there that proceeds along the following arc, every single time:

A) They discover a director or musician or writer who is generally unknown to the public, and is probably living in a sublet loft in Soho.

B) They embrace said individual, raving about his work to people within their own sphere.

C) Said individual grows in popularity. The small audience is quite pleased because it shows how clever and tasteful they are.

D) Said individual signs a three picture deal with Paramount Pictures or gets a record deal with Warners or lands on the Times best-seller list for 37 weeks.

E) Said individual buys a townhouse in Manhattan and a beach home in Malibu.

F) Suddenly the individual has “sold out.” His latest work is automatically inferior to his earlier work, as far as his original audience is concerned. Invariably, the diminishing is mainly because the individual is now popular to the general public.

This attitude–the same attitude that is responsible for stating that writing for Spawn equals selling out–shows a total lack of understanding of what selling out means. Or, at least, what it means to me–and, since this is my column, that’s what counts as far as I’m concerned.

Let’s stick with writing for the moment. When one writes something, the primary reason that one should be doing it is because it’s going to be either enjoyable or challenging. Money is nice (even preferable, for crying out loud) but not always necessary; however, the presence of money does not obviate the presence of the challenge or enjoyment.

Dave stated that the main reason for writing Spawn is because he likes and respects Todd McFarlane. That should have been all he needed to say; whether he’s getting paid or not and what he’s doing with the money is frankly no one’s dámņëd business.

But we live in a society that is so geared to thinking that being well paid is some bizarre artistic sin, that even someone as morally centered as Dave Sim comes across as needing to explain how he had not lined his own pocket. How annoying for Dave that he felt he had to justify it–and expeditiously, through CBG, as if his rep was on the line. And perhaps he felt it was.

I must admit to some surprise when he characterizes some Image creators as being in favor of being an “Engulf and Devour” style corporation (a gag corporation from Mel Brooks’ Silent Movie that was based on Gulf & Western) while others wanted it to remain a loose coalition of comic-book creators.

When Dave first described the schism in the letters page of Cerebus, he didn’t say who was on which side. When he now ascribed Todd to the latter, I was astonished. Considering that Todd has stated publicly and repeatedly: that Image intends to drain Marvel Comics dry of its creative talent; that Marvel now existed merely to serve as Image’s “farm team”; and that he boasted in an interview that his seducing Dale Keown off Incredible Hulk meant that, in regards to me, that he had “had the last laugh”–all that would have led me to believe that if any one person at Image clearly had an agenda beyond just producing good comics, it was Todd McFarlane.

If personal conversations that Dave has had with Todd lead him to conclude otherwise, then that’s fine. In which case Todd might want to consider having his public persona match his private one. Continuity and all that, don’tcha know.

Back to selling out.

Does Alan Moore working for Spawn mean that, as Gary Groth would have it, Moore is selling out considering his past stated disdain for super-heroes? Not automatically, no. It can just as easily be argued that Moore finds super-heroes boring because of what’s currently being done with them–and looks upon the opportunity of writing Spawn as a challenge and opportunity to “do it right,” or even show the potential of the genre as he did with Watchmen (although I reread it the other day, and still think it falls apart at the end. But that’s just me). But if I’m so quick to say what selling out isn’t–then I should give examples of what selling out would be.

OK. Since we began this with Dave, let’s continue it.

Dave has stated that (a) he has disdain for the major publishers, (b) Cerebus is his own personal vision, and (c) it will run for 300 issues and then end. People like myself who have been there since the very beginning have an understanding with Dave–a contract, if you will–that he’s guiding us through all the adventures of Cerebus with some grand destination in mind that he will see us through to, all things being equal.

Now–

Dave gets a call from Marvel or DC. “Dave!” they say. “We love the aardvark guy. We want to buy all rights for $5 million.”

“Don’t be ridiculous,” says Dave. “Not a penny less than $10 million.”

“Sold,” they say.

“Done deal,” replies Dave.

Cerebus disappears from the stands, only to show up six months later, full-color, bagged with a hologram card and embossed cover, penciled by Joe Blow, inked by Jack Spratt. Dave is off to Tahiti and has nothing to do with Cerebus ever again.

That would be selling out.

Selling out means being willing to abrogate your principles and moral beliefs for the purpose of making money.

Let’s take Todd, since we were discussing him. He has stated, loud and at length, that he feels Marvel treats creators with no respect, and that he wants to have no part of it. Now, let’s say Image goes belly-up and Todd blows all his money in a lousy real estate deal. Would going back to Marvel and drawing Spider-Man as work-for-hire constitute selling out?

I’d tend to think so, yeah. Certainly the most charitable thing you could call it is knuckling under for economic survival. But it’s still not something they pin a medal on you for. At the very least, it falls into the “You made your bed; now lie in it” category.

Another example, and this time I’ll stick my own neck out:

I state, here now and for the record, that I would not be interested in writing the adventures of the dumb, monosyllabic, “Hulk smash” Hulk.

Now let’s say the title suddenly switches editors. And the editor says, “I want to go back to the dumb green Hulk. Start turning in stories that ditch everything you’ve done up until now and write ‘Hulk Smash’ stories instead.”

And I say, “Forget it. I’ve already stated publicly that I’m not interested in writing the character that way. You’ll have to get someone else.”

And the editor says, “We’ll up your page rate by $20 a page.”

And I respond, “So when’s my first deadline?”

That would be selling out.

In terms of Image, I feel mildly responsible for the notion that making money off Image is automatically dirty somehow. It seems to me that subsequent discussions of my first column about Image led people to think that I was implying that Todd and company were forming Image “only” for money, and that they were slime for doing so.

I never said any such thing, of course. What I did say was that ownership and making more money was a “significant consideration” in the formation of Image–which, of course, it was and is. And I said elsewhere in the same column that the notion of the guys breaking away from the super-hero-obsessed Marvel in order to produce–well–super-heroes didn’t send me through the stratosphere, because my personal bias is towards people who aren’t working for Marvel and DC because they want to do stuff they couldn’t do on a creative basis–the way Dave Sim does, for example.

So, creatively, Image didn’t send me dancing in the streets.

I never said they shouldn’t do super-heroes, and I never said they shouldn’t be making a pile of money off it, if they can.

And we shouldn’t have come to a situation where Dave Sim has to explains his actions just because he’s doing something he’s going to enjoy and get paid for it.

(Peter David, writer of stuff, wants to make one thing clear, just in case some people start reading “between the lines”–he has not been asked to write Spawn, he doesn’t anticipate being asked to write Spawn, and if asked, under no circumstances would he write Spawn… because then Todd McFarlane really would have the last laugh. He doesn’t care if Sean Connery said “Never say never.” Everyone who quotes that ignores the fact that Never Say Never Again was a lousy film. Connery should have stuck to his guns.)

***

Footnotes from the BID book collection:

1) The foregoing, which could be loosely construed as being supportive of Image, prompted a letter claiming that I was backpedaling, no doubt because I was alarmed over how well Image was doing and was trying to retrench my position. Criticize them and you’re out to get them; support them and you’re panicking. Image continues to polarize opinions.

2) Frank Miller joined the group of writers who wrote issues of Spawn. The final results of the effort were–mixed. It wasn’t the writers’ best work, and it sure wasn’t McFarlane’s. Sometimes the parts exceed the whole.

Reblog this post [with Zemanta]

40 comments on “Selling Out”

  1. Now let’s say the title suddenly switches editors. And the editor says, “I want to go back to the dumb green Hulk. Start turning in stories that ditch everything you’ve done up until now and write ‘Hulk Smash’ stories instead.”
    .
    And I say, “Forget it. I’ve already stated publicly that I’m not interested in writing the character that way. You’ll have to get someone else.”
    .
    Ridiculous. Never happen.

      1. Why? Have you written the dumb Hulk? The only story of yours in which he appeared was in a Hulk annual published during the “merged” Hulk era that employed the “stupid hood” recurring theme as a thread through all the different incarnations of the character, in which the dumb version only had a partial part.

      2. I think you could have pulled it off. I do miss your Hulk, it alone kept me going through the marketing debacle of the 90’s.
        Granted, I do understand not continuing once the “Do it this way, now” came down from ‘on high’. While this sort of thing must happen to a degree, sacrificing your story isn’t worth it.

      3. Is that what happened with the Onslaught/Heroes reborn thing? “Banner doesn’t live here anymore”?

      4. I wonder what would have happened if you’d pulled a Bruce Jones, and said “Ok, I’ll write a savage Hulk”…. only to have him appear only once in a while, and have the book mainly be about Banner.

      5. Dear Mr. David:

        We are an independent book seller in Bright’s Grove, Ontario, Canada ¬
        specializing in current and out of print hardcover first editions and
        signed books. Your books have developed a loyal following up here and
        we were wondering if there was any way to facilitate having you sign
        some books and graphic novel/comics for our customers?

        We run a regular newsletter promoting the books and authors that we¹re
        working with. It also includes interesting facts, stories, quotes, etc.
        about the authors and their books. It¹s currently sent to over 6000
        past/current customers. If you choose to work with us, we¹d be
        delighted if you¹d provide some information/fun facts on yourself or your books.

        We’re happy to cover all the mailing costs of course and even have a U.S.
        P.O. Box to ship to in order to avoid headaches at your end with
        Customs declarations. We have dealt with numerous authors in the past
        and take pride in making it easy for you to ship the books back. Just
        recently we had an author tell us that it was the easiest autograph
        request to fulfill he¹d ever had.

        Thanks in advance for your consideration – it’s appreciated greatly!

        Sincerely,

        Chris, Sue & Jim Dupee
        The Book Scouts
        Bright’s Grove, Ontario, Canada

      6. Chris–I routinely sign books for fans. Send them along with a self-addressed, stamped envelope to me at PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.
        .
        PAD

    2. Whereas I’m laughing at the notion of anyone turning tricks on the modern corner of Broadway & 42nd.
      –
      You know, in front of The Gap, and right across from ESPN Zone.

      1. “Why? Have you written the dumb Hulk?”

        No, but being asked to write the Hulk on a mindless rampage is why he left the title.

  2. I’ve found one of the most interesting cases of “selling out” comes from the world of Gaming. Back in the 1990s (late 1980s?) there was a great company called Cheapass Games. Their philisophy (stated on the box) was that when buying a board game most of what you were spending money on was the pieces — paper money, dice, tokens, pieces — that you already had around the house or in other games. So their philosophy was they’d supply a game with the essentials only (rules, board), and because players would supply the other items, the CHeapass Games would only be $5 eacch (later $9). And they had some truly creative and wonderful games: KILL DOCTOR LUCKY, GIVE ME THE BRAIN, LORD OF THE FRIES, DRIFTWOOD, DEVIL BUNNY NEEDS A HAM, etc.

    Jump ahead a few years and guess what? They licensed out KILL DCOTOR LUCKY as a “traditional” board game with an over $20 price tag and all those “extras” included. They also did the same for LORD OF THE FRIES, as a deluxe version.

    I actually like the new versions — more menus for LORD OF THE FRIES, not having to slide thin cardboard sheets together in KILL DOCTOR LUCKY — but I have to feel this is selling out by releasing exactly the sort of “deluxe” game they had argued against in their goals. Maybe when the money gets tight, principles are the first things to go…

  3. Dear mister david, I excuse myself to post this asking there. First things first I have enjoying reading your work and my english are improved thanks to you (When I beggin reading in english, it was the days of Young, justice, supergirl and Hulk). And I waiting your She hulk : Sensationnal 1. If i disturb you there it was because I’m a big fan of Young Justice. I meet you before that DC stop the title, and you told me than in the number 56 we meet the young justice monster who is in statue in the FuturHQ. If you may tell me what you’re idea for the character and for the teamate if the title have not be cancelled, i will be more than happy ! You speak of non-issue and i’m not so out of line ! Thank you aigain ! A french comics reader !

  4. I always saw the initial Image creation as Artisits vs Writers. In hindsight, not sure why I designated it that way.

    So I was always anti-Image, until…….McFarlane brought over those heavy hitters. Then I was open minded.

    1. I saw it as Artist vs Writers at the time also. I think part of the reason was that when the Ultraverse from Malibu Comics first came out they promote it as been done by “7 of the best writers in the industry” in direct competition to Image.

  6. First, for Watchmen, is it that it falls apart at the end or is it that what came BEFORE the end is so good that any ending would be a letdown? I’m not saying that to be an arguementative fanboy, it’s just something I’ve wondered about for a long time and I never came up with an answer.

    As for selling out–I was contacted a while ago by some people I’d submitted a screenplay to. They liked the story, and wanted to use it. BUT–would I be okay if they changed some things? I thought about it for about four seconds. “Sure,” I replied, “whatever you need to do.” Turns out they wanted to do a comic book along with the filmed stuff. Well, after the e-mails went back and forth, I thought about it for a minute. What were they going to change? What was this going to look like? Then, I kinda got over myself. I was going to have my name on something that other people were going to see. Is that selling out? I don’t think so. I think what selling out is, it’s in the eye of the beholder.

  7. And the editor says, “We’ll up your page rate by $20 a page.”
    .
    At the risk of being crass, what were you paid per page in 1992? Was $20 more a significant jump?
    .
    (Am also curious (for no reason other than being curious) as to what current typical rates are, but am not sure if that would truly be crass to ask. (So I use this obviously not-really-so-coy approach to inquire.))

  8. I’ve always felt the perfect example of selling out was Netzero, they had all these ads satirizing HUAC, stating people should get the ‘Net for free (for like 10? 30? hours a month) but then they get bought by Juno. maybe their reasons were pure (economic survival, I’m not sure) but perhaps it wouldn’t have had the same impact if they hadn’t done those commercials

    1. Decent but not earth-shattering, IIRC. (I remember someone on Usenet raving about how brilliant Moore’s issue was because he presented a Hëll with multiple layers, as if borrowing from Dante consituted brilliance all by itself.) As a historical note, Frank Miller also wrote an issue; Dave Sim’s issue was more of the pontificating about creator-owned comics he was filling Cerebus with at the time; and this event is also the root of the Gaiman/McFarlane Angela/Medieval Spawn lawsuit.

      1. Yah, I know the whole Medieval Spawn mess came from this bit. I actually quite like the Spawn/Batman team-up that Miller and McFarlane did, just because it ends with Bats throwing a batarang right into Spawn’s face. That was really sweet. Honestly, I think it’s one of the best inter-universe crossovers ever. (The best inter-universe crossover, IMHO, would have to be Batman/Planetary. That one is genius.)

      2. The only inter-universe crossover I’ve actually read is the original Superman/Spider-Man, so I can’t say whether anything is better or not. However, by far the greatest idea for an inter-universe crossover ever is Punisher vs Archie. I was totally blown away when I first saw that in the store. (Unfortunately, I couldn’t afford to buy it at the time and I’ve never had another opportunity.)

  10. Wait, wait, wait, I just read deeper into that old “I Digress” article – PAD thinks that Watchmen falls apart in the end? Ye Gods! Pure blasphemy! The psychic squid totally rocks, yo.

    1. hmmmm – when the creator of one set of worlds comments that the worlds of another creator are less than they could be, s that blasphemy? Or just professional opinion?

      1. Well, if you think of it as “creator of worlds” commenting on each other’s work it’d be like Galactus disparaging the way that the Death Star destroys planets. Or something along those lines. Ya know what I mean. Whoever would be Galactus’ opposite number. Gozer, the ancient Sumarian deity. Yah. That guy. Galactus raggin’ on Gozer. Right. Go with that.

  11. Is it still selling out when you’re up against that line of electric bill/rent/baby needs a new pair of shoes? I mean, personally I’d say yes but it’s hard to begrudge a guy who dosn’t want to live in the dark/outside/have his baby running aruond barefoot.\*
    And if it is selling out, does that person get a pass as an artist because of the circumstance? Does the moral value of the line you crossed make you more or less of a sellout?

    *

  12. I tend to find that the opinions of people who accuse various artists of selling out tend to be rather fickle and subject to change anyway. The only way to EVER definitely avoid any such accusations is to die young. Or at least, shortly after some people have discovered your talent.

  13. Thank you. The whole notion of an artist “selling out” is always something that has bugged the hëll out of me. As you said, it seems a lot of those who coin the phrase seem to feel that the only way a true artist can be “pure” is to also be “poor”.

  14. I thought the Spawn/Batman crossover by Miller was one of the worst comics I’ve ever read. Total pile of excrement in my book. Totally unmemorable story. The only thing DO remember is that Miller had Batman call Spawn “punk”. A LOT!

  15. Mary,
    “The only inter-universe crossover I’ve actually read is the original Superman/Spider-Man,”
    .
    Very cool issue!
    .
    “However, by far the greatest idea for an inter-universe crossover ever is Punisher vs Archie. I was totally blown away when I first saw that in the store. (Unfortunately, I couldn’t afford to buy it at the time and I’ve never had another opportunity.)”
    .
    That was a funny issue. The idea was so outlandish, I loved it! One part, Punisher asks Archie, point-blank, who would he choose if he absolutely HAD to and he says “Betty”. Punisher tells him he’s nuts because, “Veronica’s got better cans and she’s loaded.”
    Great, fun stuff.

    1. yeah, I found a copy of that issue kicking around at my comic store for cover price. Really entertaining, especially the fact that the bad guy Punisher is chasing looks exactly like Archie so it’s kind of like a three’s company episode with the Punisher in Riverdale.

      1. But, really, to get back to what I said up there, if you want to read a fantastic crossover, read Batman/Planetary: Night on Earth. In short summation, the Planetary crew bounce through alternate earths and run into various different versions of Batman – modern, 70s Neil Adams, Frank Miller’s Dark Knight, Adam West, it’s totally great and insane every page.

    2. Bought a copy of Punisher v. Archie for a dollar. Fun stuff.
      .
      Does anyone know if they ever made an Exiles/Sliders crossover? Now THAT’S something I wanna read!

  16. Tallest Fan Ever,
    .
    “Dude, batarang in the face! Final splash page. Gold, I tells ya.”
    .
    Dude, yeah, I remember it. You enjoyed it, but to me the that last page was golden alright – if you’re talking about the color of a baby’s poop, which is what the whole book looked – and even started to smell – like to meand which was only made more rancid by the last page.

  17. Reading this and S. R. Bissette’s stuff on the censorship/ratings issues of the late 80’s reminds me of just how much mainstream comics changed from 1985 – 1995. Think about it, Image is now the home to a LOT of individual creators doing non-super-hero books that are personal visions, adult themed comics come out with little to no fear from retailers and super-hero books have changed their story-telling style completely.

    Oh, and the Marvelman stuff got all mixed in with Neil Gaiman’s Spawn issue…

    It was a strange time to be a comic book fan.

  18. “even someone as morally centered as Dave Sim comes across as needing to explain how he had not lined his own pocket. How annoying for Dave that he felt he had to justify it–and expeditiously, through CBG, as if his rep was on the line. And perhaps he felt it was.”

    This one is a bit funny in retrospect too.

    I think if you asked most fans to complete the sentence “I really lost respect for Dave Sim when he …” I suspect several people would know exactly what they’d put in the blank.

    And for not a one of them would it be, “… wrote that issue of Spawn in 1992.” 🙂

  19. “The only story of yours in which he appeared was in a Hulk annual published during the “merged” Hulk era that employed the “stupid hood” recurring theme as a thread through all the different incarnations of the character, in which the dumb version only had a partial part.”

    That’s not the only PAD story to feature the savage Hulk, Luigi … but I imagine the “chill” comment refers to the fact that the entirely hypothetical scenario PAD outlined in 1992 turned out to be almost *exactly* why he ended up leaving the Hulk series in 1998.

  20. I had a very good time at I-CON 29. As always, there were plenty of things I wasn’t interested in (notably anime), there were lots of interesting panels (including PAD’s; we all left because they were closing the building Sunday night), some great costumes, and the terrific gaming area. My full review (complete with many photos) is at http://thearmchaircritic.blogspot.com/

Comments are closed.