It’s Nice When the Boss Has Your Back

Posted By: Peter DavidPosted On:

Joe Quesada addressed the Shatterstar revelation and Rob Liefeld’s complaints in the current “Cup O’Joe” over at Comic Book Resources.

Particularly gratifying was when he said that if Rob wants to undo the revelation of Shatterstar’s sexuality, he’s going to have to take it up with the next editor in chief.

PAD

65 comments on “It’s Nice When the Boss Has Your Back”

  2. Good to hear you are being backed up, while I can get the creator has his own agenda, I doubt you would mutate a character just to suit your agenda and your co-workers trust your judgment.

    1. I *DON’T* doubt that PAD (or any writer for that matter) would “would mutate a character just to suit (his) agenda.” It is just that in PAD’s case, the agenda is making a change that he feels will make the best story possible. Now, if you had said that you doubt PAD would mutate a character just to spite the creator of that charcter, I’d be much more inclined to agree with you. Though I am sure PAD may have Tuckerized an annoyance or two, and subtly (or not so) used parody to scathing indict someone, I can’t imagine him damaging a characater just to spite the creator

      1. I mispoke, I meant to say PAD is in the business of telling a good story, not furthering some vast conspiracy to pìšš øff people. Apologies!

  3. Ready for today’s dose of irony? Out of the eleven thumbnailed covers and pages in that column, guess which one doesn’t display full-size when clicked.

    Yep. THAT one. (The Punisher with his gun stuffed in somebody’s mouth comes up just fine, kthnxbye.)

    OK, maybe it’s bad coding. Maybe some troglodyte’s been doing a bit of hacking. But it’s one of those, as Arsenio Hall used to say, “Things That Make You Go ‘Hmmm…'”.

  4. Re: Rob Liefeld’s prerogative as Shatterstar’s creator.

    Isn’t Fabian Nicieza officially Shatterstar’s co-creator? Isn’t he the one who introduced the gay subtext to the character?

    1. Gee, didn’t you know that the only important aspect in creating a comics character is what it looks like? The words are just superfluous drivel.

      [Now that everyone who actually feels that way is looking up what that means…]

      In the days when crosshatched art was king, and artists with no discernible writing ability could sell millions of copies of new #1 issues with words like advantageous in them, I tended to get the impression that the artists frequently didn’t really see a need for a story that went beyond providing them opportunities to draw pretty (and high-selling in the original art market) splash pages. Now, I could be completely mistaken, but I believe the reason that the likes of Chris Claremont left the X-Books was that they were being asked to try to dialogue the “stories” being tossed out by the artists of the books – and that this was both a daunting task, and a thankless job.

      So, even if Fabian was the official writer on the book when Shatterstar showed up (and I don’t necessarily think he was), it would be in keeping with Rob’s premise that there was no *co-* creator of the character.

      That said – I think the hints regarding the character’s sexuality (be it gay, bi, or merely ambiguous) came along after Rob had left.

  5. You must have some pretty good blackmail pictures to keep your boss in line like that. Wonder what they might be? Pictures that show Peter Parker really is still married, the last few months have just been a figment of our imagination?
    .
    Iowa Jim

  7. You know, to an extent, I can appreciate Rob’s concern. Those XForce people were pretty much all his babies, but they belong to a company that can do whatever they want to with them, which he certainly understands since he left Marvel for Image for those very reasons.

    In his mind, he had this character mapped out, now someone else has layered something else in there. It happens, though. Given that it’s PAD doing it, likely some good stories will come of it.

    Even if none of that makes him feel better, IT’S JUST COMICS!

    1. “In his mind, he had this character mapped out,…”
      .
      Brian, I disagree. Liefeld didn’t have anything mapped out. He isn’t capable of mapping out any plot or any story. Liefeld is a guy who doesn’t think about anything except his next orgasm.
      .
      Oh, and his art still REALLY sucks.
      .
      I understand there are Liefeld fans out there, and more power to them, but I just can’t get behind the idea that Liefeld is a thinker.

  8. And that’s got to be all the more gratifying considering that Joe was, shall we say, less supportive of you and your ideas in the early part of the decade.
    .
    Way to go, PAD.

    1. I don’t know if I’m necessarily going to rethink my opinion of Joe Q as a whole, but it’s good that he finally says something I can wholly support. 🙂

    2. I’ll believe it when I see it, because Joe Q will do whatever it takes to make money. I’ll hang onto the hope that Shatterstar and Rictor stay queer long enough to become established that way. But if Joe Q sees an opportunity to straighten them out in order to pull in more readers, he’d do it in a heartbeat and deny that he ever said otherwise.

  10. How things have changed from the U-Decide days.

    I wonder if we’ll ever see Joe do some interior X-Factor pages again.

  11. I was always wondering about Rob’s comment, there. He could only undo what PAD did if Marvel invited him back to write stories that Shatterstar was a part of.
    He created the character, but it belongs to Marvel (isn’t that part of the entire reason he and the rest of the Image guys left marvel, anyway?)
    And, to be fair, its not like PAD hasn’t felt the same sting; Marvel took away Hulk from him for what I think is still stupid reasons, and it is still considered probably the best run of Hulk ever.

  13. I have to ask, and this is only 1/2 snark, What has Rob done in a decade that has been on anyone’s radar? I’ve seen his BSG comic covers and I think I recall seeing a Youngblood cover. Other than this Shatterstar stuff what has he done? Sure he’s beging paid by someone to draw tiny feet and I am happy when ever someone is able to make a living doing what he or she enjoys but doesn’t he seem like the Kathy Griffin of comic creators?

    1. The weirdest thing about Liefeld and anatomy is that I used to think that he had drawn proper hands and feet early in his career. There was a Hawk and Dove series that he worked on where the hands and feet were fine.
      .
      Then I found out, I’m not joking, that he left the hands and feet blank in that miniseries and someone else drew them for him.

  15. Doh! It just hit me. Rob, the “father” has just found out his “son” is gay. Let’s cut the man some slack.

  17. I think it’d be funny if in a future issue Shatterstar has to go off and break up with his old boyfriend, “Rob”.

  18. I’m not a big fan of Joe Quesada the EIC (I am, however, a huge fan of Joe Quesada the artist), but I have to give him two huge thumbs up here for doing the right thing.

    Actually, this is the second thing he’s done that I’m on board with. The first was the “no smoking” mandate. I know some people don’t agree with that, but I understand his reasons for doing so and admire the conviction to make it so.

    I’d still rather see him draw more and EIC less… but gotta give credit where/when it’s due 🙂

  19. I’ve been pretty happy with Marvel while Quesada has been EIC.

    Over at DC, JLA was ruined by Didio forcing Dwayne McDuffie to spend issue after issue setting up other books. He got to tell his own story a little here and there, but mostly it was just writing one story that continues in “Green Arrow/Black Canary”, then another story to set up “Desperation Run”, then another to set up some other event. Countdown was the same way, where telling a good story came a distant, distant second to setting up everything else in the DCU.

    Under Quesada, I haven’t seen much that particularly bugged me like that. I can see how things with reworking Spider-Man and working with JMS could have gone better, but that’s about all I can think of. I don’t agree with everything that’s happened, but even the things I didn’t like seemed like sincere attempts to tell good stories, not marketing stunts that put story in second place.

    1. “I can see how things with reworking Spider-Man … could have gone better,…”
      .
      Jason, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many, many fans, it couldn’t have gone worse.

      1. There were definitely problems. No doubt about it. The fact that things went so badly with JMS alone is significant.

        However, the fan distaste for the story wasn’t entirely about the story. Many of the fan opinions I read online didn’t come across as sincere. There were people who had grown up with Peter Parker being married and were absolutely ready to bash anything that broke them up. Not all the fans were this way, but there were a lot who were and they had some really terrible logic for why they hated it, citing things that hadn’t bothered anyone when they had happened in other stories.

        What I’m saying is that even though there were problems with how they did it, there were a large number of people who were going to dislike it no matter how it was pulled off. Many, many fans were going to say that “it couldn’t have gone worse” no matter how it had gone.

        Which leads to the question of whether it should have been done at all. On that I have to say that I understand Joe’s reasoning. The marriage was a hasty decision that wasn’t something anyone at Marvel wanted to do at the time. That’s a historic fact. I, personally, was feeling the lack of tension caused by the marriage that Joe talked about. And Joe was right that every version of Spider-Man made since then, whether movie, cartoon, or whatever, always had Spidey single, which indicated that that is the more natural state of the character. Plus, he was right that for the first 20 years of the comic, troubles with women were a huge part of the story and that was a tool that was taken away by the marriage.

        Those all seem like reasonable arguments to me. So whether I liked the method or not, I respect his reasoning.

      2. Brand New Day is a ray of sunshine after the Spider Totem “Peter rises from the dead” JMS run.

      3. Brand New Day is a ray of sunshine after the Spider Totem “Peter rises from the dead” JMS run.
        .
        Well, anything would be a ray of sunshine after the total crap that was One More Day.
        .
        Divorce? Bad!
        Deal with a proverbial devil? Good!
        Joe Q’s spin? Pathetic!

      4. Jason M. Bryant said:

        “The marriage was a hasty decision that wasn’t something anyone at Marvel wanted to do at the time. That’s a historic fact.”

        Actually, that’s a line that Brevoort and Quesada have been spinning since the start of ‘One More Day’, and not historic fact at all. The marriage came organically out of Tom DeFalco’s run on the title and was his idea, and was signed off on by the EiC, Jim Shooter. The “hasty” part was the decision to do the wedding simultaneously in the comics and the newspaper strip.

        Years later, when trying to find justification for dissolving the marriage, Quesada used selective memory to suggest that the whole thing was an impromptu decision. But DeFalco will tell you he was setting it up for years.

      5. John, do you have any links to something talking about Tom Defalco’s plans for Spidey getting married? I did a quick internet search, but I didn’t find anything.

      6. “Years later, when trying to find justification for dissolving the marriage, Quesada used selective memory to suggest that the whole thing was an impromptu decision. But DeFalco will tell you he was setting it up for years.”
        .
        No, that’s incorrect. And I’m pretty up on this because I just completed the manuscript for a book on Spidey’s history. Yes, DeFalco was setting up MJ and Peter getting married, but his notion was that Peter was going to be stood up at the alter. He NEVER intended for the two of them to marry.
        .
        You can read the full story when the book comes out.
        .
        PAD

      7. Hey guys, this has been a most curious thread…Anyhow I thought the One More Day storyline could have played out better than let’s use magic to do a quick clean slate. A little sloppy in the writing, but it did open up the book to have a lot of fun. My problem has been trying to understand how the Mephisto deal changes everything. I mean to where does it start, did we go all the way back to the point of the original wedding day and Peter got stood up instead getting married? I think fans at this point would like a little bit of structure for the sake of building confidence. I remember the Other story was kinda flat, but I think PAD salvaged it to a degree in his spider-man book, then iron-spidey came and went, the peter with more spider powers came and went and civil war – all of which happened roughly in a 6 month span. It was a mess and each of those points could have been good story elements for a long time. I think even the most off-kilter ideas for spider-man can be good, but it depends on the creativity of the writer. I think as a writer you’d want to be put in these odd situations as a challenge – I know I would. And I’m really interested in the spider-man history book that should be pretty interesting stuff.

      8. Hey guys, this has been a most curious thread…Anyhow I thought the One More Day storyline could have played out better than let’s use magic to do a quick clean slate. A little sloppy in the writing, but it did open up the book to have a lot of fun. My problem has been trying to understand how the Mephisto deal changes everything. I mean to where does it start, did we go all the way back to the point of the original wedding day and Peter got stood up instead getting married? I think fans at this point would like a little bit of structure for the sake of building confidence. I remember the Other story was kinda flat, but I think PAD salvaged it to a degree in his spider-man book, then iron-spidey came and went, the peter with more spider powers came and went and civil war – all of which happened roughly in a 6 month span. It was a mess and each of those points could have been good story elements for a long time. I think even the most off-kilter ideas for spider-man can be good, but it depends on the creativity of the writer. I think as a writer you’d want to be put in these odd situations as a challenge – I know I would. And I’m really interested in the spider-man history book that should be pretty interesting stuff.

      10. Actually, I really liked JMS’s take on Spider-Man; the aggravating part was that the character never changed in any of the other books (especially the Avengers – Bendis seemed to get stuck on the teenage wisecracky insecure Ultimate Spider-Man instead of the confident hero he should have been) While I wasn’t a big fan of One More Day – it seemed a little odd that all those people couldn’t figure out how to help a woman survive a gunshot wound – it fir Peter’s character to turn to Mephisto at the end. It even made sense for Mephisto to cripple Spider-Man emotionally, to get rid of the hero Peter’d become for his own purposes. The unforgivable part was that the stories were just so bad! I lasted about three months hoping they would get better before I finally gave up.

      11. PAD: but his notion was that Peter was going to be stood up at the alter.

        Wow, that actually fills me with a strange sense of nostalgia. That feels incredibly in character for MJ and Peter at that time.

  20. Wasn’t Jeph Loeb the one who established that Shatterstar was gay in the first place about a decade ago? Kinda late to be pìššìņg and moaning about it now.

    2. Yes, but bìŧçhìņg and moaning that Jeph Loeb was being mean to Rob doesn’t play nearly as well as stating that I was out to piss him off and stir up the fans against him.
      .
      PAD

  21. THANK GOD. I have to say that I think that’s pretty dámņ cool of Joe Q to do. I mean, it would have been ridiculous to allow that sort of thing to happen, but to know that it won’t is nice.
    .
    That being said, seeing how all this Shatterstar stuff seems to be a topic of interest, is there any way he will be staying on your book past issue #50, Peter? Even if he’s not a team regular? I will be bummed to see him go.

  22. This is one of the few statements of Quesada’s over the last few years that actually gives me some respect for the man.
    .
    As for Liefeld….I won’t even go into my opinion of his work since a) it’s ultimately a matter of personal taste, and b) it’s irrelevant to the subject, but it was an incredibly unprofessional statment to make. Not really surprising, considering the source, but still…it’s one thing to have a difference of opinion, and it’s another thing entirely to state that you intend to essentially erase another creator’s work at your earliest opportunity.
    .
    Some people claim that Liefeld is something of a verbal punching bag, the target of casual insults just because it’s “cool” to bash him–the comics fandom equivalent of, say, Paris Hilton. I say that if Liefeld thinks it’s “cool” to so casually insult another creator, then I’m fine with letting the cheap shots fly at him. I’m a firm believer in reverse-application of the Golden Rule–i.e., “I will treat you as you treat others”.
    .
    Chuck

  23. I read that article by Joe yesterday – I was really pleased by his comments too. I really appreciate him saying that he considers it to be a nonissue, because that’s how I think it should be.

    And I for one am really happy with what you’re doing with Rictor and Shatterstar, and I hope Shatterstar stays around more than a few issues – I’ve always enjoyed him.

  25. Rob Liefeld is one of the few artists out there whose art seems to have suffered a sharp drop in quality as soon as he became a Name. Check out his Jennifer Morgan Bonus Book back in “Warlord” #whateveritwas–that looks pretty decent. His work on the “Hawk and Dove” miniseries was pretty good as well.
    Then he became R*O*B L*I*E*F*E*L*D and suddenly it was all “tiny head, muscles that don’t exist, nevereverEVER draw feet.”

    1. As noted elsewhere in this thread, Liefeld’s inker really helped out the art on Hawk and Dove, including drawing the feet for him.

    2. I’ve seen Liefeld draw feet.
      .
      And, to be fair, Mike Mignola doesn’t like drawing feet, either. Apparently drawing feet is difficult, which, not being an artist, I don’t pretend to understand.

      1. Avoiding drawing feet I’m okay with. It’s not so hard that the artist shouldn’t learn to do it, but I don’t usually notice the lack of feet.

        What Liefeld gets the most grief over is his legendary problem with wrists. Sometimes he draws them correctly, but very, very often he either draws them horribly or he gives the characters bizarre gloves that cover their wrists. That’s very noticeable, easy enough to improve on if he bothered, and looks terrible.

      2. I don’t see what’s so hard about feet. They usually look a lot like a shoe and I think even I could learn how to draw shoes. hands, sure, hands are tough.
        .
        I got out of my major comics reading phase right about when Liefeld and co became popular so I don’t have the extreme dislike for him that many do, though even with my small exposure to him I thought the art was more about pretty poses and less about storytelling…but that’s just me. I’d rather read a book with good writing and old school Steve Ditkoesque 9 panel storytelling than a book full of flashy splashpages all suitable for framing that can be read in 2 minutes.

  26. Wow. I just read the whole thread on the liefeld board and Robot 6 (and I’m ashamed to admit that I found it all amusing) 🙂

    What gets me here is how there are so many suggestions that it’s out of character.

    From the thread on Liefeld’s board:

    “I’m totally against this idea with this character as it doesn’t fit in his stories/past.”

    “Seems totally contrived.” (this one by Rob)

    “it seems contrived and way out of character.” (also by Rob later on)

    “…it’s just NOT in Shatterstar’s character.”

    So, much of the dislike seems to come from the notion that this was pulled out of thin air as some cheap publicity stunt.

    Yet… the first couple of pages on the thread on the Liefeld board (before the issue actually came out… armed with only the knowledge that Shatterstar would be appearing), there seemed to be an overwhelming concern as to whether or not he’d be presented as gay.

    The fact that there was this concern early on seems to suggest that there is ample ground for presenting Shatterstar (and Ric) as being gay. Yet, when it happens, the vocal majority seem to fall back on it’s “contrived and way out of character”.

    As a person who embraces logic, trying to figure it out makes my head hurt 🙁

    1. I mean… on page ONE of the thread, in response to, “hopefully he is written well and used the way he should be.”, somebody (who, based on the # of posts I’ll assume is a regular on the board and therefore not just a troll) replied with, “Like the gay guy in love with Rictor that he is?”.
      .
      Granted, he followed that up with, “I keed, I keed”… but really hammers home the point that none of this was in any way contrived or pulled out of thin air.
      .
      I keep telling myself I’ll stop trying to make sense of it… I need a support group.

      1. As I noted earlier, claiming that I simply produced the storyline out of nowhere for the explicit purpose of annoying Rob and get publicity plays better to Rob’s fans than the notion that I simply continued an ongoing storyline and did so not to get publicity, but in spite of potential negative responses that the move would invariably engender.
        .
        PAD

      2. PAD, I think you’re just going to have to accept the fact that every internet fanboy alive knows you, your work, and your opinions & views better than you do. 😉

  27. I don’t think people see the hypocritical BS Joe Q. said in that PR statement. He says nobody would ever have to ask him if they wanted to turn a character gay. Sorry, but I doubt he’d let Fraction do this to Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, or Peter Parker.

    Joe simply did what he has to do. He wasn’t defending PAD. He was defending Marvel as a company from looking like they have a problem with gays. He would have made this defense no matter how out of character this was.

    Also, for people who don’t know. The whole Rictor and Shatterstar thing in vol. 1 of X-Force was just a friendship. I own every issue plus every annual. In Nicizea never introduced a gay angle. He introduced ‘Star having a wife he never got to meet, but was willing to fight Arcade to save. Loeb never introduced a gay angle. He kicked Rictor out of the group on his first issue and made a story out of ‘Star being an escape mental patient who only thought he was from the future, when he was really a clinically insane boy. After this both character were pretty much removed from the book.

    Them being gay was purely Slash Fiction. PAD should be familiar with this as a Trekkie. They do it with Kirk and Spock all the time. It’s a fan fiction pairing that has no basis in reality. I’m waiting to see where this story is going, but it is out of character based on their history.

    1. Well, I guess that leaves two possibilities: Those who saw the gay subtext, including PAD and sevgeral other readers, were imagining things; or you were oblivious to them.

      I’ll go with the PAD version.

  28. I agree with Mark L Powers, it was nothing more than bad slash fiction PAD..something that the X-Men has always been rife with. Hey Mark I’ll see your Shatterstar and raise you Iceman, another character that suffers from the exact same problem.

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