Jon Stewart on “The Daily Show” in one of his headline reports stated, “And the Israelis and Palestinians move ever closer in the peace process, which is expected to be concluded NEVER.” He said it a year and a half ago, back when Clinton was making his last ditch effort to bring Sharon and Arafat together. Back when Israel puts its best offer *ever* on the table, and Arafat instead simply walked out and supported terrorist attacks.
It is a sign of the world’s unfair expectations that Israel is expected to express regrets (and does so) over the unfortunate deaths of women and children caught in the crossfire, but no one seriously expects Palestinians to express regrets over guerilla assaults that kill Israeli women and children as a matter of design. The Palestinians continue to be painted as victims. It is incomprehensible. Meantime the major Arab countries don’t understand why Israel doesn’t take their generous offer of rolling back to the pre-Six Day War boundaries in exchange for which the Arab nations will finally recognize Israel. My. What a generous concession. The governments will acknowledge that which has been in existence for nearly three quarters of a century. And once they do so, then what? Continue to indoctrinate their citizens from an early age into Anti-Jew philosophies? Three out of four Arabs still refuse to believe that Arabs had anything to do with 9/11. You’d think they, of anyone, would know that “Denial” is not just a river in Egypt.
Israel’s neighbors want to kill them. How does one negotiate with people who want to kill you?
PAD
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Hard to be a liberal and Jewish these days isn’t it?
Maybe people wouldn’t treat the Palestinians like victims if the Israelis hadn’t spent ten peaceful years acting like the Weimar (No passports, no water rights, delay delay delay an airport, build settlements designed to demoralize the Palestinians, etc.)
Not to say that I’m overly fond of the two faced child butchering Palestinians, just that a people that have gone through a Genocide ought to be a bit more sensative about the respect they give to another people.
Greg Zywicki
Weimar was a republic. It’s main fault was that the economy sucked and it allowed the nazis into power. As for Israel, no new settlements have been built.
How come the world doesn’t condemn the teatment of Chechens, who are dying by the thousands, or the Kurds, who had 5000 killed?
Peter,
I appreciated your comments about the Arab/Israeli conflict.
My one caution to you, women and children were not simply “caught in the crossfire” as you say, but were most likely murdered by IDF troops in the latest fighting. See Human Rights Watch report on Jenin here:
http://www.hrw.org/
and Israeli human rights organization B’tselem reports here:
http://www.btselem.org/
Shawn
Actually Jim, there’s been no halt to the growth of the settlements, nor will Israel promise such. So Israel’s “peacefull intents” have to be viewed skeptically. In fact, in a recent poll, 46% of Israelis support the “transfer” of the Palestinians from the occupied territories. “Transfer” is a nice, neutral word for the cleansing of millions of Palestinians from their homes.
As for Israel’s “best offer *ever*”, PAD have you seen the details of this offer? As described by David Clark in The Guardian, the plan entailed “the West Bank carved into three chunks, surrounded by Israeli troops and settlers, without direct access to its own international borders.
“The land-swap that was supposed to compensate the Palestinians for the loss of prime agricultural land in the West Bank merely added insult to injury. The only territory offered to Palestinian negotiators consisted of stretches of desert adjacent to the Gaza Strip that Israel currently uses for toxic waste dumping. The proposals on East Jerusalem were no better, permitting the Palestinians control of a few scattered fragments of what had been theirs before 1967. “
Nobody said the South Africa was being “generous” when they set up Bantustans for blacks and called them independent nations (recognized by no nation on Earth). The Israeli offer was no more generous.
And make no mistake- Israel is in no danger from it’s neighbors, whom they can easily crush (as they’ve repeatedly shown). This war isn’t for Israel- it’s for the settlements.
“And make no mistake- Israel is in no danger from it’s neighbors, whom they can easily crush (as they’ve repeatedly shown). This war isn’t for Israel- it’s for the settlements.”
What an annoyingly naive comment. The United States is in no danger of being overrun or defeated by any country in the world, much less by Al Qaeda, but that doesn’t mean that we’d allow attacks upon our cities or civilians. The fact that Israel has the means to crush its neighbors is meaningless. A country that is attacked has the right of self defense, regardless of its military strength or the size and/or power of those who perpetrated the initial offensive actions.
On a side note, mentioning The Guardian, the most leftist, anti-Israel er “mainstream” newspaper in England, as a citable source for news about Israeli governmental plans is as laughable as it is absurd.
-Brian
“And make no mistake- Israel is in no danger from it’s neighbors, whom they can easily crush (as they’ve repeatedly shown). This war isn’t for Israel- it’s for the settlements.”
What an annoyingly naive comment. The United States is in no danger of being overrun or defeated by any country in the world, much less by Al Qaeda, but that doesn’t mean that we’d allow attacks upon our cities or civilians. The fact that Israel has the means to crush its neighbors is meaningless. A country that is attacked has the right of self defense, regardless of its military strength or the size and/or [lack of] power of those who perpetrated the initial offensive actions.
On a side note, mentioning The Guardian, the most leftist, anti-Israel “mainstream” newspaper in England, as a citable source for news about Israeli governmental plans is as laughable as it is absurd.
-Brian
I think it’s scary the kinds of responses I’m reading here. I’m not going to defend everything Isreal does. But look at it this way: If what the Arabs are doing to the Isreali’s was done to the US, can you imagine what the US would do to the Arabs? Some of the leading officials of Arab nations have counted on the fact that the US needs their oil resources as a way to control the US and prevent it from fully taking Israel’s side. This is war. Children get killed. On both sides. It’s not pretty but it happens. The US didn’t get it’s land and government by being nice to the Native Americans. Look what has happened to the ones who have chosen to maintain a semblance of their lifestyle? They are on reservations akin to camps. Does this give the natives a right to attack people? No. It sucks, but that is life.
Besides, the whole “palestinian refugees” thing is all a political ploy by the Arab nations to create a martyr for the islamics. The only reason the palestinians are in their current state is because the Arab nations want them to be in it to try to make Israel look bad. I mean, look at how much land the Arab nations have and compare it to how much Israel has. Why don’t the Arab nations give some of their land to the refugees or allow the people to be citizens? Because they would lose their martyrs and their killers that they are breeding and raising with hatred to commit murder. Did you know that all of the Arab nations (with the exception of Jordon) have refused to allow the palestinians to become citizens even though they admit that the palestinians are fellow Arabs? And studies have shown that the palestinians don’t even have a distinct culture that is different from that of the other arabs. In fact, they didn’t even really start developing their own “culture” until the 80s. Israel has absolutely no reason at all to give any land to the palestinians at all! They did not take the land from them in the first place. The refugees are people who left on their own with the promise that the jews would be wiped out in a day or two and they could then return to safety. The palestinian people are being used and abused by the arab nations for strictly polital propaganda reasons. And that is very very sad.
luv,
-Su
I think it’s scary the kinds of responses I’m reading here. I’m not going to defend everything Isreal does. But look at it this way: If what the Arabs are doing to the Isreali’s was done to the US, can you imagine what the US would do to the Arabs? Just look at how the US responded to a single day of attack (September 11th). And the Israeli’s DO pity the Palestinian civilians. They know the people are being used and abused. But not by them. Some of the leading officials of Arab nations have counted on the fact that the US needs their oil resources as a way to control the US and prevent it from fully taking Israel’s side. This is war. Children get killed. On both sides. It’s not pretty but it happens. The US didn’t get it’s land and government by being nice to the Native Americans. Look what has happened to the ones who have chosen to maintain a semblance of their original lifestyle? They are on reservations akin to camps. Does this give the natives a right to attack people? No. It sucks, but that is life.
Besides, the whole “palestinian refugees” thing is all a political ploy by the Arab nations to create a martyr for the islamics. The only reason the palestinians are in their current state is because the Arab nations want them to be in it to try to make Israel look bad. I mean, look at how much land the Arab nations have and compare it to how much Israel has. Why don’t the Arab nations give some of their land to the refugees or allow the people to be citizens? Because they would lose their martyrs and their killers that they are breeding and raising with hatred. Did you know that all of the Arab nations (with the exception of Jordon) have refused to allow the palestinians to become citizens even though they admit that the palestinians are fellow Arabs? And studies have shown that the palestinians don’t even have a distinct culture that is different from that of the other arabs. In fact, they didn’t even really start developing their own “culture” until the 80s. Israel has absolutely no reason to give any land to the palestinians at all! They did not take the land from them in the first place. The refugees are people who left on their own with the promise that the jews would be wiped out in a day or two and they could then return to safety. The palestinian people are being used and abused by the arab nations for strictly polital propaganda reasons. And that is very very sad.
luv,
-Su
My apologies, I posted twice because it gave me an error saying it could not post it. Can the moderator please remove the first message I entered? I made some modifications in my second post.
I’ll know better if it gives me an error this time.
luv,
-Su
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??
Um, let me get this straight- it’s okay for the Jews to fight for land they owned 2,000 years ago, but the Palestinians should forget about land they were living on just a few decades ago and should just up and go someplace else. Sure, how irrational of them to keep fighting for their homes like that. Why put up with a BRUTAL occupation denounced by every human rights group in the world when they could just pick up and go. They must be fanatics or something.
Let me tell you, as an American, if somebody tried to take over MY land on God’s say so, I’d fight them by any means I could. Even if the military was untouchable (as Israel’s is in their tanks and helicopters) I wouldn’t just sit by and let someone move into my house. I’d try to share with them the hëll that they’d turned my life into. If you feel otherwise, if you’d welcome the occupiers with open arms, well, that’s you.
“Even if nobody lost their land, the [Zionist] program was unjust in principle because it denied majority political rights
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??
I agree with most of what Su said, but everyone should bear in mind that the Jews are the Indians in the Land of Israel. That is, the Jews had a state in Israel long before the Arab conquest. The Arab conquerors imposed special heavy taxes and humiliating social rules on Jews throughout the Islamic domain. In Israel in particular, the Arab tribes confiscated land from Jews and raided them. All this pushed Jews out of the country in the early Middle Ages, some of them founding the Jewish communities in northern Europe. And then the Crusaders came and massacred most of the remaining Jews. The Jews in Arab-ruled society, whether in Israel or Iraq or Yemen or Morocco, etc., were kept in an inferior status. As to Greg’s comments, the terrorism is not spontaneous. It is organized by Arafat and his close collaborators as part of a political strategy, just like they pushed the big lie of a massacre in Jenin that did not happen. As to the settlements, it seems to me racist to say that Jews cannot live in their ancient homeland. In fact, several of the settlements were built on land where Jews were living up to 1948 and were driven out by Arabs (Gush Etzion) or were driven out by Arabs in 1929 (as in Hebron) with British help. I believe that the Arabs have to undergo a cultural revolution before they can live at peace with anybody, even fellow Muslims. Look at what they are doing to the Kurds in Iraq. Poison gas, confiscating Kurdish lands, ethnic cleansing, etc. Look at the massacres of Blacks in the Sudan by the Arab government. How come no Western government talks about that??