I’ve been pondering whether Pete Rose should be granted entry into the Baseball Hall of Fame in the spirit of forgiveness for his active betting on baseball. Kathleen offered me her opinion on it, and I think she’s dead on.
The only way Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame is if Shoeless Joe Jackson precedes him. All or nothing. If we’re going to forgive Rose during his lifetime, then Shoeless Joe has to be forgiven long after his has ended. It’s only fair.
PAD
• 
Your lovely bride has hit a home run (pun intended)! Great idea! This is a move by MLB to try and make the fans happy and they should be worried about bigger problems. Besides who can’t support Shoeless Joe after watching Field of Dreams.
It’s a tough call, whether or not Rose should be in the Hall. And if he is allowed in, does that mean he should be allowed a job in baseball in the future?
The evidence against Rose is overwhelming to everyone but himself, as far as his betting is concerned. Rose needs to admit to what he did, apologize for it, and for lying about it for over a decade, and then he should be allowed in. I don’t believe a job should await him, though. Not right away, at least.
But he does deserve to be in the Hall. Baseball is a game of numbers and Rose has some of the greatest numbers ever. As a player, he shouldn’t be left out. As a person, well, no one ever said you had to be a good guy to get into the Hall of Fame. Look at Ty Cobb.
As far as Shoeless Joe is concerned, that man has deserved to be in the Hall of Fame for over eighty years. There’s absolutely no proof he did anything in the Black Sox scandal to hurt his team. Once again, just look at the numbers. He might have taken the money, he might have even given it back, but either way, he had one of the best postseasons, numbers-wise, of almost anyone at the time.
Numbers don’t lie.
Only two weeks until Spring Training opens!
Gotta agree with Dave. Shoeless Joe batted over .300 and didn’t commit a single error in the field during the series. He may have taken the money, but he did not throw the games.
I believe there is evidence that Rose betted on baseball…but is there evidence he ever betted against his own team? I personally have no problem with a player or a manager betting for his team…that just adds incentive to win. (Of course, I realize betting on sports is illegal for everyone..but it shouldn’t be)
I would add that he should have to admit to and apologize for betting WITHOUT the promise of being readmitted to baseball or the HoF. I don’t like this quid pro quo Selig seems to be offering.
I guess it could be a good idea.
Pete Rose, far as I know, never threw or fixed games he was involved in…I’d argue that’s different than betting on a major league sport that you’re involved in. Of course, I also think it’s a very mild offense compared to a lot things you can apparently do that won’t hurt your eligibility to play in a major league sport…
Sort of like the NFL’s policies that require only drug rehab for cocaine abuse, but mandatory suspensions for the use of over-the-counter supplements?
I think you’re way off here, Peter. The situations are so different that they should not be compared. Shoeless Joe took a BRIBE to intentionally play badly in a world series. Pete Rose bet on baseball, and mabye on his own team to win, but never TOOK money to affect the outcome of a game.
Consider the Judge who takes a bribe to let off a defendant vs a judge who gives a light (or no) sentence to his son-in-law so as not to harm his daughter. Sure, the second judge is wrong, and betrayed the ethics of his profession, but taking pay for illegal behavior is significantly worse than acting unethically.
I think the Hall of Fame erred in banning Pete Rose from the Hall of Fame. They made the rule that banned players cannot make the Hall of Fame a few years after Rose was banned. Fan support is mostly for Rose to be in the Hall. If the Hall were to let him in, I think the fans would be happy and MLB need not necessarily admit Rose back to the game.
Shoeless Joe is a little stickier, though; although I don’t believe he threw the Series, he did take the money. And the Hall never admitted him even when there were no rules that they couldn’t.
Personally, though, I agree that both should be in the baseball Hall of Fame. The numbers for both players are phenomenal. Plus, the hypocrisy of the Hall for overlooking Ty Cobb’s much more egregious sins (and Kenesaw Mountain Landis’ overlooking Cobb’s gambling) make Rose and Jackson’s omissions from the Hall a travesty.
But look at who IS in the Hall. On the gambling side, there’s Tris Speaker, whose PROVEN gambling on baseball in 1920-1921 was swept under the carpet by Judge Landis, because he felt the sport could not survive another scandal. There’s Charlie Comiskey, whose penurious ways and crappy treatment of his players all but guaranteed that some would eventually take outside money.
Doc Gooden and Daryl Strawberry will be inducted, for all the drug problems and incarcerations they inflicted upon themselves.
There are alcoholics, womanizers, and criminals in the Hall; too many to name–but two always stand out to me:
Enos Slaughter–racist, mean-tempered, and violent throughout his career.
And Cap Anson–who did, admittedly, have a lot to do with how the game was played, but also drew the color line across the sport. There were blacks playing in the leagues before he flexed his power, remember.
And Joe Jackson, Bucky Weaver (who DIDN’T take any moeny, but knew about the fix), and Charlie Hustle are still banned from the sport?
This is just another reason why I’ve gone to games with a “BAN BUD SELIG” sign …
There is evidence that Jackson threw the World Series.
1. ARGUMENT: Jackson had a great batting average in the ’19 Series.
Fact: Jackson did hit very well in some games, but those were the games where the fix was off. In the supposedly fixed games, he hit under .200.
2. ARGUMENT: Jackson didn’t make many fielding errors, if any.
Fact: Jackson basically loafed in the OF, turning what would be routine base hits into triples because he was late getting to the ball. Those plays don’t show up as errors.
3. ARGUMENT: Jackson may have signed a confession, but it shouldn’t count because he was illiterate.
Fact: Illiteracy isn’t stupidity. Jackson didn’t transcribe the confession, but he did sign it after someone else took down his words. Also, he
testified orally and his comments to others at the time strongly implicate his involvement.
The other question, to me, is whether Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall of Fame just based on his numbers.
He never led the league in batting average, only played 13 seasons, of which only 9 were relatively full seasons. Led the league in hits twice, doubles once, triples 3 times. On base average and slugging once each. Finished with ‘only’ 1772 hit. His batting average was high, though he never led the league, but he played at a time when averages were high.
He was eligible for the hall for years and wasn’t electted.
Rose on the other hand, led the league in hits 7 times, runs 4 times, average 3 times, doubles 5 times. And, of course, had 4256 hits.
Jackson admitted taking money from gamblers, you might be able to agrue he was too dumb to know what he was being paid for, but there is no way the gamblers were too dumb to know what they were buying.
Rose bet on sports, may have bet on baseball, the evidence isn’t as cut and dry as people seem to think. And he’s a jerk. And his nickname isn’t quite as romantic as ‘Shoeless Joe’. And they’ve never made a movie about him walking out of a corn field to play baseball.
Rose played to win, no one can doubt that, he always wanted to win. He worked hard all the time, and with players today that seem to phone in the effort most games that’s something to admire.
Gambling is the one sin a professional sports league can NEVER forgive. Players betting on baseball are putting the integrity of the competition in question, and without competition, baseball has no product to sell, neither Rose nor shoeless Joe should ever be allowed back in baseball or the Hall of Fame. The evidence against Pete is not shaky, it’s ironclad, had it not been, he would never have accepted the suspension in the first place.
Well, there’s a slight difference in collaborating to throw a game, and betting money on a game. Even so, both deserve to be in the HoF.
Gambling on baseball is illegal if you’re a player or a coach; Pete Rose bet on baseball. There really shouldn’t be any question about it. He even signed his own lifetime ban from the sport. Even with that, he’s contanstly hedged and quibbled around the subject, never showing genuine remorse for his own illegal actions.
Of course, a wonderful solution to all this is to let Rose in the HOF once he passes away. It is a lifetime ban, after all.
I am somewhat of a moralist, so my thinking comes from a rather rigid place.
About Rose, my feeling is that he should first admit his crime. Once he does that, we can discuss his status. Thing is, there is apparently evidence he bet against his team. That for me is reason enough to ban him for life. So I oppose reinstatement into active baseball life. (Not that he was so good a manager that anyone would hire him except for publicity.) As for the Hall, I’d let him once he admits his crime, but perhaps put a notation on his plaque that he was banned from baseball. Essentially, “great player, not-so-great member of society.” But then, do we treat all the other criminals in the game the same way? I am among those who think that betting on baseball needs to be treated differently than drug use or tax fraud.
As for Shoeless Joe, I heard that Selig commissioned a baseball hsitorian to re-examine the Black Sox Scandal, and that the historian concluded that Jackson, despite his batting average, played below his skills during the Series. I agree that if Rose gets in, Jackson’s case should be reopened, but I think that his guilt or innocence is not so clear-cut. Maybe he would deserve a “great player, but took bribes” note on his plaque, according to my pretzel logic.
Baseball Hall of Fame(pretenting the perfect world theory) does not care what kind of person you are but did you hurt the game.
Rose betting on the game he played in did not affect the game is crazy. It has to. I find it too unbelieveable Rose only bet for him to win. He gambled and he had a problem (family experience here), Rose bet what ever looked like a win. If his problem was on the far side of the scale, the betting became more important than the game itself.
It’s taken a while, but my attitudes on these two players is as follows:
Shoeless Joe: Clearly took money to throw the World Series. Admitted as much to a grand jury. Went ahead and played in the World Series having taken the money, and knowing that several of his teammates had also taken the money, and didn’t tell anyone until after the fact.
If being part of a conspiracy to fix the World Series is grounds for denying one entry to the Hall, then Jackson clearly should not be admitted. There is some reason to feel sorry for the poor slob, since it also seems likely that he was taken advantage of. Still, they were his actions and he needs to take responsibility for them.
Not, of course, that he’s still alive. How many people are still alive who saw Jackson play? A few hundred – maybe? At this point Jackson’s induction would primarily be the induction of a set of stats and newspaper articles. Besides which, does the Hall really need any more Major Leaguers from before 1947? It’s alreay choked with them, thanks to the inept induction practices of the 40s and 50s. No, Joe should not be inducted.
Pete Rose: There may be a more despicable figure in modern baseball, but it’s hard to find him. One of the very few bright spots in Bud Selig’s tenure as “CEO of Baseball” has been keeping Rose out of baseball. The evidence that Rose bet on baseball, including games involving the team he was managing, seems compelling. His endless whining since his ban has lowered his stature in the sport, IMO, to that of a penny-ante crook. His laudable career (even including his selfish run at Cobb’s hits record, having been arguably a detriment to his teams’ performances from 1980 onwards) has been completely overshadowed for most by his gambling addiction.
If one could make a case that players like Joe Torre should be admitted to the Hall for their performances after their playing careers (although personally I think Torre is a deserving HoFer based on his years on the field alone), Rose seems to have done his utmost to demonstrate that post-playing behavior can negate one’s qualifications for the honor.
Yes, baseball has had greater shames (the gentlemen’s agreement banning blacks from the sport), but Rose’s behavior isn’t far behind. He struck at the fundamental integrity of the game, and his very public ouster from the halls of baseball’s most revered players is entirely deserved.
There’s a sentimental part of me that wants to see Shoeless Joe in the Hall of Fame. One of the greatest natural hitters of all time, who made a mistake and suffered the consequences. It’s easy enough to say that Shoeless Joe doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall, and the argument has been made that he was technically eligible for years, really until about ten years ago. But given the enormity of his crime, and it was a crime in that he and the other Black Sox perpetrated in shaking the very foundations and faith in the sport of baseball, I’m not sure that anyone could have voted for Jackson in his own lifetime. It would take the perspective of time, and certainly the induction of confessed drug abusers and the like, for Shoeless Joe’s crime to be placed in perspective absent the passions of the time.
Forging a link between Shoeless Joe’s fate and Pete Rose’s strikes me as a false one. Both are guilty of gambling on the game. I would rather see Pete Rose’s fate linked to Buck Weaver, the Ginger Kid’s fate. Weaver was banned from baseball for knowing about the conspiracy to throw the World Series, but he neither participated in its planning or received any monies. Weaver should be exonorated by Bud Selig before Pete Rose is removed from baseball’s permanent ineligible list.
Jackson was involved in the worst sports scandal in American history. Rose bet on his team to win.
Big difference. There should be no linkage.