Some years ago it became stylish to trash Stan Lee.
I’m not entirely sure why. It might be because they had it right in “The Dark Knight”: You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. That might have well been the situation in Stan Lee’s case.
The accusations were that Stan did nothing to promote the legendary artists who created the characters with him. The typical complaint was that Stan was rich while the others were struggling, and that was unfair, and Stan had no business being declared the co-creator of Fantastic Four or Spider-Man or the Mighty Thor or Doctor Strange or the Incredible Hulk. We were increasingly told the characters were the sole creations of the artists and horrible old Stan just stuck his name on them and tried to take all the credit. I’ll never forget when Jack Kirby stated in Comics Journal that he had gotten the idea for the Hulk by watching a news report about a frantic mother who, because she was so upset, had enough strength to lift a car that was pinning her struggling child to the ground. And Jack thought, “What if we did a hero who, when he got really angry, changed into a super strong monster!” Great idea…except in the Hulk’s origin the transition was brought about by the rise of the moon, like a werewolf. Anger had nothing to do with it and wasn’t established until years later. I’m not saying Kirby knowingly lied. I’m just saying memories can be problematic and claiming that all credit should be taken away after the fact based on differing memories is a slippery slope.
This of course also ignored the fact that while DC was still publishing comics with no creator names on the title page, Stan broke from that tradition and slapped the artists’ names right on the credits page. While DC artists labored in anonymity, Stan gave us King Kirby, Stainless Steve Ditko, Jazzy Johnny Romita, Genial Gene Colan. We would have known none of those names if it wasn’t for Stan. DC editors privately dubbed him “Stan Brag” because they thought taking credit wasn’t…I dunno…gentlemanly. At least, they thought that until they started doing it, too.
Yes, he was richer than the artists. But he was also an executive at Marvel, and spent pretty much every day of his waking life promoting the Marvel heroes, the Marvel philosophy, the Marvel artists, and the Marvel brand. He toured colleges all over the country, doing endless Q&As.
Are there still people who despise him? Oh yeah. But I think he thwarted the “Dark Knight” line because his popularity stared to swing back over the years. I believe part of it was his string of cameo appearances in the Marvel movies. Finding Stan transcended finding Hitchcock in his films. People even theorized that he was actually one guy observing the Marvel Universe, and even found affirmation of that when he was filling in the Watchers on all he’d seen in the previous films during a closing credits seen in “Guardians 2.”
Over the years Stan began to reaffirm himself as what he was: the oldest comic book fan alive. How can you keep hating somebody who was clearly just having so much fun? Whose continued presence in the films served to remind you that he was there when it started.
The Village Voice dismissed him as merely a “writer of word balloons.” Yeah, well, compare the word balloons of “Fantastic Four” with Jack Kirby and the word balloons of “New Gods” with Jack Kirby and you’ll realize what a master of dialogue he was. But it’s way more than that. The fact is that the comics industry as it currently exists would not be around if Stan had not only co-created the characters, but made Marvel Comics into what it was:
The House of Ideas.
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My guess would be right around the time Funky Flashman turned up in MISTER MIRACLE #6.
This is how oblivious I was as a fan. I had no idea that Flashman was supposed to be Stan or that Houseroy was Roy Thomas. Went right past me.
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Well said.
Agreed. Stan may not have conceived of all the characters he’s credited with, but he gave the distinctive voice to Peter Parker and Spider-Man, to Reed and Ben, to thor and the Surfer. Back when Thor and the Asgardians spoke in Elizabethan prose, only Stan and Roy ever got the feel right. Roy had been an English teacher; Stan was just a genius. Stan’s greatest creations were the Marvel Universe, the Marvel Age of Comics, and the Stan lee persona who embodied them all.
Quite simply, if the comics industry has any icons at all, that title is justifiably applied to Stan. We have lost one of the industry’s last remaining legends, and even though it’s been years since Stan actually wrote any comics, we are all much poorer without Stan in the world. May he rest in peace.
I have never understood how anyone could read Stan and Jack, or Stan and Steve, and then read Kirby and Ditko when they were on their own, indisputably free from lee’s supposedly minor contributions…and not see how much had been lost.
But pointing that out is perceived as çráppìņg on Ditko and Kirby and who needs the grief?
as is the norm these days, the facebook posts should follow the usual pattern:
!- lots of “oh no! Not Stan!”
2- tributes to his contributions and personal reflections on what his work meant to people.
(sadly, it does not end at 2)
3- And then, as predictable as sunrise…”let’s not forget (insert list of personal failings and negative assessments, fair or not)”
4- Anger that in paying homage to Stan people are çráppìņg on the memory of (someone else)
5- Concern-Police who will complain that the attention to one man’s death is distracting us from (something else).
6- idiots. Like, seriously brain damaged people who say stuff like “Good! maybe this will stop the from making all those movies I don’t watch!” which is stupid on levels that don’t even exist.
The New York Times actually has an excellent obit and includes this: “Mr. Lee wrote a slim memoir, “Excelsior! The Amazing Life of Stan Lee,” with George Mair, published in 2002. His 2015 book, “Amazing Fantastic Incredible: A Marvelous Memoir” (written with Peter David and illustrated in comic-book form by Colleen Doran), pays abundant credit to the artists many fans believed he had shortchanged years before.” Nice to see it get mentioned.
Truly, the passing of a legendary figure and an all-time great in his profession. For decades now, for so very many people, Stan Lee was Marvel Comics. The industry and all around it will never feel the same again.
Stan Lee was a giant and he definitely deserves credit as the man who most shaped the Marvel Universe and co-created most of the characters, even though Kirby and Ditko also are equally deserving of credit.
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I think bashing Stan Lee really gained traction when Image Comics first started. The Image founders made it “cool” to bash Marvel when they took the mantle of defenders of creators rights (something I always found ironic, since early Image characters were mostly rip-offs from Marvel and later McFarlane went from cool rebel of creator rights to that guy who tried to grab Neil Gaiman’s creator rights).
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It became chic to bash Marvel, and by extension to bash Stan Lee, the public face of Marvel. The Image fellas also had a further motivation: they wanted to sell the idea that artists were the real creators in comics and writers were expendable. That made Stan doubly appropriate as a target.
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I’m not saying this just because Stan has sadly passed away, but I never had a lot of stomach for the Stan bashing. In part because I was too old to like early Image Comics and their “all-flash-no-substance” bûllšhìŧ, and I identified mostly with the old guard, and I resented these allegedly cool rebels.
“That guy sitting next to you? He’s your brother.”
Thanks, Stan. Make mine Marvel.
The other thing that didn’t help Stan’s image was the constant churning out of stuff that had Stan’s name slapped on it, which created this perception that Stan was in it for the money. (In reality, I think Stan loved doing what he did and he was going to do it for as long as he could.)
Stan’s death probably won’t hit me fully until we get to see his last cameos next year in Captain Marvel and Avengers 4. After that, it will be weird seeing a MCU movie without him in there.
I hope Marvel Studios will find a way to keep honoring him in later movies.
I’m hoping they do find a way to keep him in there somehow. Photos in backgrounds and such, perhaps. Hopefully, imaginative and non-intrusive ways.
Thank you Peter
Thank you, Peter, for saying it so well!
I am not a hater of Jack, but a lot of his work without Stan is unreadable. To this day, I think Darkseid owes more of his stature to “The Great Darkness Saga”, than to say, Hunger Dogs. Stan and Jack, and Stan and Steve, were a perfectly balanced (in different ways)
When I discovered comics, I read Little Lulu and Tubby and the Donald Duck group. As my pre-teen years started, I discovered DC Comics and stuck with them until 1966, when my senior year at Brown U started (at age 18). A fellow student introduced me to Marvel at about the point where FF 60 and ASM 40 were on the stands. I had dropped DC a year of so before, and I was hooked on Marvel. I bought back issues from the Grand Book Center and Howard Rogofsky and others, using the Marvel reprint series (Marvel Tales and Marvel Collectors Item Classics) to fill in most issues I couldn’t afford. I devoured Stan’s essay columns. I followed his speeches to college campuses. I got a couple letters to the editor published, followed the industry goings-on through Paul Levitz’s Comics Reader and the Rockets Blast Comics Collector.
I enjoyed the art, but it was the dialogue and the shared universe and all the positive energy that really appealed to me. In my early years, I jumped on the three-initial ranks of Marveldom created by Mark Evanier, and Mark became another comics writer I would follow anywhere (still do). When Roy had all the best writers at Marvel, I relished the dynasty feel and the sense of greats seeking to match each other. I rediscovered DC when they were still the JLA and JLA members, but I enjoyed their reinventions when Roy and Jack and Neal Adams and Marv and Len and Steve E and Steve G migrated to DC. I especially enjoyed the sense of friendly competition and covert collaboration that was the feel of the times. And I could feel Stan’s influence on the writing styles of all the younger Marvel writers and the contrast with DC stalwarts like Fox and Broome.
When Stan wasn’t leading the way, it seemed, he was charting the way, by example.
When Stan went to Hollywood, I kept waiting for media versions of Marvel that were worthy of the source material, and when that finally came, Stan’s direct influence seemed limited to Exec Producer credits and cameos, but the quality and the tone of the good works seemed to spring from finally abandoning generic Hollywood and embracing Stan’s Marvel style.
I was not blind to Stan’s deficiencies and missteps or to his decline in his later years. But whenever I heard him, I heard enough of the original spark that had drawn me to him and Marvel. I wasn’t old enough to have witnessed the Marvel of the 40s and 50s or Stan’s more limited role in those days. I have devoured all the histories and bios of Stan and Marvel. They paint a richer portrait of this fascinating individual and his complex and flawed relationships with other fascinating creators. I feel I’ve rounded out my picture of Stan without ever losing my fondness for and gratitude to him for all he gave me, directly or indirectly.
Growing up reading comics, I sampled all I could get áhøld of, usually boxes of old comics in neighbor’s garages. With DC, there didn’t seem to be a consistent personality, probably due to a lack of a “face” of the company. But in every issue of Marvel comics… there he was: “Smilin’ Stan”, with Stan’s Soapbox, full of friendly banter, bombastic exclamations, and more alliteration in the “Mighty Marvel Manner” than you could shake a lame doctor’s cane at.
For years, Stan put himself out there, connecting with the fans, making friends, encouraging new talent to take risks and go for it… He not only became synonymous with Marvel, but became the walking embodiment of comics as a whole.
And he did it all with a smile and a wink, never afraid to have fun OR make fun of himself. (Robot Chicken. Pam Anderson. Need I say more?) You always felt like he was your favorite uncle, always ready to give you a gift you didn’t know you wanted until you had it, and treasured it forever.
Stan believed in telling great stories and having fun doing it. How many people can say they did what they love for that many years, while changing the face of an entire industry.
Stan believed anyone could be a hero, in the right place, at the right time.
And for many of us, he was that hero, just when we needed him.
Thanks, Stan.
Just one word, Stan:
Excelsior!
This news hit me harder than I really expected it to. After all, by pretty much any objective measure, Stan had one hëll of a run: doing what he loved for decades, living to his mid-90s, married to the obvious love of his life for nearly 70 years … what’s to mourn after a life so well lived?
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On the other hand — like many people here, I bet, I was reading Stan’s stuff, or Stan’s successors’ stuff, at least as long as I can remember, and possibly earlier than that. For a geeky kid who came through HS two years younger than everyone else, Marvel was a place to fit in and to dream about. (Let’s not forget that during those years, I also started reading a really great Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man run by some young whippersnapper named Peter David…)
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Did he sometimes overstate his own contributions and minimize those of others? Probably, but that’s both human nature and the nature of memory for most people. His enthusiasm for doing what he loved always shone through, no matter how goofy he could get at the time.
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Here’s hoping he finds peace among his fellow Watchers. Excelsior, Stan the Man.
Thank you for this. I agree completely. While Peter Parker’s costume and stories were huge to me, the character wouldn’t be nearly as important to me as he is without stan’s dialogue and the values he I stilled into the character.
My first encountr with the works of Stan Lee was an issue of the french magazine “Fantask”, where the Fantastic Four, The Silver Surfer and the Amazing Spider-Man were translated for the french readers, which I had found in a desk while I was in detention in 1970, I think. Since then, I’ve more or less followed his works, either by reading the french translations (heavily censored at the time), or the german translations when I was in West Berlin, or the original english version later on. I never had the honour of meeting the man himself, but I saw him on stage at the UKCAC, way back in the 90s. And of course, I loved his cameos in the movies inspired by his works.
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A true giant has left us. If not for him, things in american comics would have been very different indeed. That’s how influential he was. He’ll be terribly missed.
Peter, I am reminded of your very funny contribution to the Harlan Ellison Tribute that was referenced in CBG’s Stan Lee birthday issue. (You posted it to your site on September 10, 2012.) That issue was celebrating his 75th birthday. I am glad he was able to read it and enjoy the accolades while he was still young(ish) and able.
I have been saying for many years now, that no company could have had a better ambassador than Stan Lee. His obvious enjoyment of what he was doing was infectious and I loved looking out for his cameo appearances.
He will be missed.
Peter summed it up for me back in the BID days.
With Stan, Jack creates the Silver Surfer.
Without Stan, Jack creates the Black Racer.
The Silver Surfer always gets trotted out as an example of Lee taking credit for the work of Kirby or proof that Lee was not important in the creation of the characters…the fact is that I never once saw a Stan Lee appearance where he did not relate the origin of the Surfer. He delighted in that story. Every. Single. Time. It was his big go-to anecdote. The only reason we know that Lee was surprised by his appearance in the book was because he told us about it, over and over.
If one wants to make the claim that he never gave the artists credit, the name Silver Surfer should be avoided at all costs.
Yep.
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As much as Stan became installed in the popular mind as a stealer of credit, it was Kirby that loved to dismiss Stan’s contributions and it was Kirby that kept claiming that he created everything.
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Not that I blame Kirby too much. He SHOULD have gained lots of money for licenses and whatnot. No matter what the contract said, it was an immoral situation.
https://www.cbr.com/stan-lee-was-always-anti-bigotry-racism/
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Besides being the legendary creator of many of the greatest superheroes, Stan was also fighting the good fight for more than 50 years.
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It’s strange to consider that in the 1980s and 1990s, when I first came in contact with his work, Stan Lee’s anti-bigotry views seemed to be a broad consensus – racism still existed, sure, but loud and public racism was universaly condemned.
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Fast forward to 2016, and Stan Lee’s good words in 1968 become relevant again…
As to just how much Stan had to do with creating all that stuff:
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David McDaniel wrote several of the “Man from UNCLE” novels for ACE Books.
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One, The Monster Wheel Affair, features Mr Simpson, the head of UNCLE’s R&D department, showing Solo and Kuryakin the two-man stealth submarine they will be using to infiltrate an enemy base.
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After describing how it works and how it was built, he says its called the Simpson Class.
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Ilya points out that he has said that the hull was designed by a computer at UCLA, the propulsion system was designed and built by General Dynamics, the hull was fabricated somewhere else, and that the whole thing was assembled by Electric Boat.
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He asks exactly Simpson had to do with it to justify naming it after himself.
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Simpson thinks for a minute, and then says “I can’t really say – but before I came here, they didn’t do things like this.”
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…and THAT is Stan Lee’s role in creating the Marvel Universe and revolutionising comics..
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Before he came along, nobody {well, with the exception of Will Eisner’s shop} was doing that sort of thing.
That is a great analogy.
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Kirby and Ditko were both geniuses, no doubt about it. But it was Stan Lee that added that human touch, that relatability. And also, the sense of direction and of the Marvel Universe being a whole that is far larger than its components.
And Bill Maher is, once again, proving that he is a colossal áššhølë.
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One thing I never understood. Why is it that comics and science fiction and stuff like that is seen as inherently silly and immature and unimportant by some people (thankfully a smaller number of people every day), while things that are obectivelly at least every bit as silly as seen as important and worthy?
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I could mention, for instance, fashion and professional sports. When you think about it, pro sports is just a bunch of grown men running after some ball. I don’t mean to diss people who love pro sports, just pointing out how arbitrarily some hobbies are considered “mature” and “important”.
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Then again, C. S. Lewis said it best. Only really immature people worry about being seen as mature.
For those wh haven’t encountered Maher’s stupidity on thi:
I guess we’re all delusional and Trump is the President of France, not the US.
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The final graph of the post at The Daily Beast about this idiocy says:
Nuff Said.
While I would have disagreed with Maher regardless, it wouldn’t have been so offensive had he brought up his remarks about comics on a different occasion. What Maher doesn’t seem to get is the real issue is he used Stan Lee’s death as a springboard to bring this up. Of course using someone’s death to make a statement is going to get a reaction, even if the death has nothing whatsoever to do with pop culture. That sort of thing is inching towards Westboro Baptist Church territory. I’m not saying that what he did is the *same* as protesting at funerals, but it’s inching in that direction.
The comparision is appropriate for several reasons. I always thought guys like Bill Maher, who like to ridicule other people’s religious beliefs, are not so different from the religious folks who like to ridicule and humiliate people who do not believe as they do. It’s essentialy the same mindset of “What I say is the fûçkìņg truth and I don’t care if I hurt your feelings.”
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(Even though I agree with Maher that Liberals go a little overboard in their defense of Islam)
Rene…
First of all, I think the C.S. Lewis quote is spot on. Maher has always struck me as someone who really liked college a bit too much… not unlike the stereotypical former quarterback who misses his glory days.
However, I question if his comments on comic books as a whole were something deeper.
The conflation of comics and the election of Trump. However, I Believe Trump (and not just the man, but the era we find ourselves in), is the result of an ideological arms race.
It came to a point that the two sides kept looking to get an upper hand on the other. Their version of armaments was just being an áššhølë.
I don’t mean to call names, only classify. Personalities that were arrogant, smug, uncompromising, and rude.
That began, or at least picked up, in the 00s. This was the time that gave rise to O’Reilly, Hannity, and many more who came and went.
It is also when Maher went from being a cult figure to a more well known. And he was the lefts world-killer. No one could match that abrasiveness personality.
Both political sides lined up, or cut slack, because they kicked ášš. Even if not in a cohesive or well structured way. Obviously, it varied from situation to situation.
It is important to note Trump took a political stage commenting on Obama. Commenting. Like the other aggressive personalities.
Trump was a response to that mentality. He was the next step. The tanks and planes were replaced by an atomic bomb.
The two figures (Maher and Trump) are not so different in personality. Both are abrasive, arrogant, not as smart as they believe themselves to be… I could go on, by we already covered it.
A part of me wonders if he is just doing everything he can to avoid facing the fact that he is responsible in part. Again, not for the man, but for the era. The tone.
Setting the pace for the anger and aggression so many people have along political lines. Of course, like all things, there is personal responsibility.
However the pace had been set. Each side views it as a football game, winning was what mattered. Not what was being one.
Yeah, perhaps that is part of it, not wanting to admit what you hate is your doing.
However, I question whether a man who criticizes people for mourning and sharing positive thoughts of a generally positive influence, have that , much sense of self.
Hope I didn’t take this in an uninteresting place. Just thought
Sam –
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I agree with you about the arms race mentality and the debasement of political debate, also about guys like Maher, and many other Liberals and moderate Conservatives who may not want to examine how they may have paved the way for the age of Trumpism, and Maher being a particularly interesting example of such a guy.
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It would be a case of projection, blaming comic books for Trump, instead of looking to his own contributions to make the political mood poorer and more juvenile. 🙂
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There was an article in the NYTimes or The Guardian that touched on such matters. It was about how left-wing comedians and artists (Michael Moore was named) as contributing to the current climate. Because they entered the arms race and made a career of painting Conservatives as stupid and foolish, and Conservatives took these insults as badges of pride and doubled down on their anti-intellectualism and their disdain of “learned elites” that is so rampant on Donald Trump.
Rene, hope you are still checking here.
Michael Moore is interesting in his own right.
I am from the Detroit area, and Flint, while not in the five counties that make up metro-Detroit, is very close. IN fact, there water crisis was because they stopped using out water for cost purposes.
There is a very complex view of Michael More in the city.
Many people appreciate him shinning a spotlight on the problems int eh city, even when it isn’t in the news. However, they also recent the fact that he only paints that one picture.
Like many cities (especially Detroit) it is more than one thing. While Flint certainly has its challenges, there is good coming out of there as well.
Obviously, that isn’t the story. “things go according to plan” or “decent people help decent people” is hardly interesting. It is what is expected… or at least hoped.
He however paints it as something out of Mad Max. So the question becomes, is he trying to help, or feed his ego as “the savior.”
To me that sums the problem up perfectly…ego. How many of these pundits care more about the ideas, than being seen as right?
Maher is the perfect example of this. In the end the comic book thing is fairly trivial.
You can pint out he is good friends with the creator/star of a cartoon aimed at adults with a talking Dog and endless fart and dìçk jokes.
You can show him comics that elevated the medium. You can point out Hugh Hefner, who MAher admired, was a fan of comics.
It won’t matter. His ego won’t allow him to accept he is wrong.
Now take that mentality and apply it to more important matters. Or even the possible ripple effect.
He is an advocate for addressing climate change. How many people simply didn’t hear him, because of that attitude? I don’t mean to the opposing side, just didn’t pay attention.
Of course, it isn’t just about science and intellectualism.
Every critic of Obama was called a racist. Were some? I would assume so, hëll… I would put down good money.
But many had a different view on how to solve problems, or steer a society.
But, no, they were ALL called racists. It becomes the boy that cries wolf. So, when real racists started to go mainstream, many people didn’t catch the warning signs.
The great irony of all of this, is that Maher (and his ilk) creating a monster or enemy, especially one so like them, i almost like a comic book origin story. Or maybe more a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode.
Lets split the difference and say Tales From the Crypt (don’t forget it was originally a comic.
Well Said Peter.
Thanks Stan.
I cannot believe the absolute explosion of the internet with the passing of the great one, your words Mr. David are very comforting in a dark time. thank you.
Excelsior!
The first image in this collection says it all…