So now that the dust of the convention has settled, I’ve had a good deal of time to assess my behavior regarding the Romani and my conduct during the convention. I’ve read many of the links that were sent my way and really thought about what I witnessed two decades ago back in Bucharest. And I’ve been assessing my actions during the panel that lead to all this.
After all that, I have to conclude that I’m ashamed of myself.
I want you to understand: when the Romani rep tried to shift the focus of the panel from gays and lesbians to the Romani, suddenly I was twenty years younger and the trauma of what I saw and what I was told slammed back through me. What screamed through my mind was, “Why should I give a dámņ about the Romani considering that the Bucharest Romani are crippling their children?” And I unleashed that anger upon the questioner, for no reason. None. There is no excuse.
But the more I’ve read, the more convinced I’ve become that what I saw was indeed examples, not of children crippled by parents, but children suffering from a genetic disorder. The pictures are simply too identical. I cannot come to any other reasonable conclusion.
And I’ve wracked my memory, but the more I do, the more I come up empty on recalling any examples of children with busted elbows or gouged eyes, even though my guide assured me that was the case. And of course Wikipedia didn’t exist two decades ago for me to check through his claims.
Did my guide lie to me? I don’t think so. Why would he? I think he genuinely believed it. I have no doubt he asked the same questions of his parents and they told him what they believed, what they were told, going back generations, because the Romani have been biased against for centuries.
Are the children in fact unabused? No, because I know what I saw with my own eyes regarding that dad and his son. Articles I’ve read and information I’ve been recently given indicate children are taught to beg or steal to gather money for drug abusers. The “lucky” ones are dumped in orphanages. And there is little to no help from the government in Romania because of prejudices against the Romani dating back centuries.
And what did I do? I helped, in some small way, to make matters worse. I have never felt more mortified.
Of course, to some degree, horrors that I witnessed and that have weighed on me for two decades are now gone. The kids’ lives are no doubt horrible, assuming they’re even still alive, but at least it didn’t happen because of what their parents did.
So I hereby apologize to every Romani that I offended with my comments.
Of course, I could apologize to the gentleman who I attacked. Which I did. Over the course of two days. Over Thursday and Friday I spent a LOT of time at my artist alley table talking with him, hearing him out, discussing how I could improve the portrayal of Romani in the pages of the comics that I write. But after all that, he then insisted I arrange a meeting with editorial at Marvel. I told him that that was beyond my power to do. I guess what it comes down to is, when you’ve done everything you can to make it up to someone you’ve wronged and they demand the impossible, then you just have to shrug and know that you’ve done your best.
Just as I’m sure that this apology will likewise not be enough for some people. But you do what you can.
So for what it’s worth, I will continue to treat Romani characters with respect, just as I have for twenty years with Quicksilver, and I again apologize to any Romani who I have offended because of my rash actions. And I also want to thank all the family, fans and friends of mine who have stepped in to defend me, knowing that I am no racist, but simply someone who feels passionately about things and sometimes opens his mouth when it would be better to keep it shut.
PAD
• 
What you’ve witnessed and what you were told informed you one way. Time passed, retrospection becomes clearer and maybe those things change. New information comes along and you learn and grow. Unfortunately, that will never be enough for some people. Some people prefer the confrontation to the growth. You made amends that you could make. No one should ask for more.
Exactly what Brad said. Thank you for being willing to listen to new information and for genuinely apologizing.
As with all complicated matters- ever forward.
🙂 Agreed. I want to apologize to you Mr. Chandler.
I promise to be nothing but civil, and I forgive you, but please don’t say “Gypsy” or at least not to or around me in this thread.
I forgive you, but please don’t call us Gypsies. I promise to be more civil in my responses.
Glad to see you took time to think about this and apologize. Your reaction didn’t parse well with me, as I strongly believe you’d look askance at anyone who said (or hinted they believed) “all x are.”
The question I should have asked, that I’m ashamed I didn’t ask, is, if the man was telling the truth, what are the social conditions towards the Romani in Eastern Europe that would make those actions seem like a good idea. That alone might give a hint as to how bad prejudice against them is.
So, according to Comics Beat, the guy who had to make his long speech and derail the LGBT panel into his demands for the Romani, I mean, asked the question that upset PAD, this guy is the head of some pro-Romani organization called Romapop. Now, according to the Romapop manifesto posted on Comics Beat as a list of demands stemming from the NYCC panel issue, Romapop is wanting Marvel to write into their editorial process the mandate of “the act of rebuilding the image of the rromani people”.
Now, what I really want to know is, WHY IS IT MARVELS RESPONSIBILITY to “rebuild” the Romani image? What the does anyone owe to the romani, let alone a company who makes comic books? Why is a romani organization acting so entitled towards a company that does not owe them anything?
For a culture who has been stereotyped as one that lives off of others and refuses to work, why are they trying to live off of Marvel rebuilding their image for them? Why can’t they ask their Romani Ambassador here, Christopher Quinn, to rebuild their image? He did such a great job informing everyone what Romani are all about with his constant “fûçk you”s, “kill yourself”s and threats to other posters children in the other thread here.
All of this nonsense brought out the worst in the Roma posting here. The Romapop demands are ridiculous, and in usual entitled fashion demand that others do their job for them. Do none of these trolls understand the harm they are causing themselves by their own actions? Keep on reinforcing those stereotypes, romanis!
You better hold you tongue, you troll. You are most racist and inconsiderate person alive. We are not trying to live off anyone, you sick jerk. For most people, with the exception of “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”, the only other exposure people have to the Romani is through comic books. American history text books only have one or two scents on average about us. The first comments I included in the previous thread were polite and well written, but after 3 posts, I lost my cool, and rightfully so. Why must you hide behind a cheesy username. Actually talk to me, man to man, unless you’re incapable. You have no write to mention my name. I regret ever using my full name. You have no right to attack or judge me.
You lost your cool. Hunh. I can sympathize.
PAD
Thank you, Mr. David. Look, I really want to work with you on this. I really do care about and like you as writer and fellow human being. I know you’re an inherently good man, that’s why I cried when I first heard about this. I cried just as much as I got angry, because as Roma fan, I felt beyond alienated. And I personally sured my story with you as well as my academic papers, and I still felt hurt seeing everyone else’s responses to me on here. And to be honest, I’m still trying to cool down, so please disregard my harsher comments. But things need to change. It’s okay to feel scared, angry and confused, but it must be understood how even this apology can is still upsetting to Roma such as myself. Please read my most recent post (and once again ignore the insult portion). I don’t actually think you’re a “psychopath” but I meant it seems “psychopathic”. And I’m sorry for calling you delusional, you have honestly made one of the only Romani characters in comics more likable and relatable, as you made him fun and exciting and funny and human. BTW, I love Spider-Man 2099. 🙂 Keep being a kick-ášš write, Mr. David.
I’ll certainly try. Thank you.
PAD
*writer
(P.S.–Also look up the diaspora of the Romani. It’s super cool and exciting how similar it is to the Jewish diaspora, especially if you’re into history and culture, which I know you are because you’re just awesome like that. 🙂
Kermit, look, I’d like to formally apologize for my behavior. I am a little unclear on what stereotypes I was reinforcing, but whatever. Look, you seem like a reasonable guy, and you’re clearly intelligent. To be honest, if we knew one another, we’d probably be good friends. I get along very well virtually everyone I meet and I have a tendency to bring out the best in everyone. 🙂 It’s important to understand the plight of the Romani and where we’re coming from and why is seems as if “we feel as though we are ‘owed’ something.” Perhaps I could help educate you, or at least share my experiences? 🙂
*personally shared
**writer
One last thing Mr. David, please read and respond to my other comments. I accept your apology, but I’d really like you to do more research in today al lRomani people.
So, I’m the most racist and inconsiderate person alive and you want to be my friend? Well, I guess if we are going to be friends now I should probably not take your previous advice to kill myself, as that might dampen our friendship if I’m not around to enjoy your company. Since I’m the number one racist/inconsiderate person in the world according to you, they say it’s lonely at the top, so I guess we can be friends if I can overcome my hatred of all non-Muppets. But first I’m going to need Marvel to make an editorial mandate to rebuild our friendship.
I’ve seen people show far less contrition for having done far worse. Being willing to reflect on your actions, reconsider your position and publicly make amends all speak volumes about your character.
I understand your concern about having made things worse for the Romani. If it’s any consolation, though, by taking this issue head on you’ve educated me about the plight of a people I heretofore knew almost nothing about. I think you may have done more good than damage here.
I also think your angry reaction at the panel was entirely forgivable. It didn’t come from a place of malice or hate, after all. You were understandably upset about what you witnessed and what you were told those many years ago.
I have a great deal of respect for the way you’ve chosen to address what happened.
For some reason, admitting you’re wrong, apologizing, and resolving to do better is a lost art in our society. Glad to see it happen here.
Like Jerry (and Pop) said, always forward.
Happy to see you coming to your senses a bit here. I check your blog every now and then, have for years, because I find your writing often interesting (and you brought back Kara). But that post was the first time I felt I actually had to post something.
Because, seriously, the anti-ziganism in Europe (not just Romania. Every European country)is MASSIVE. Unemployment rates of somthing like 80+%, active persecution in several countries, living in extreme poverty etc.
So you can see how it looked incredibly bad to people aware of the situation (it’s easily the greatest European shame of our day, and doesn’t get the attention it needs).
So well done not doubling-down on what was, frankly, deplorable.
(And something breaks your commenting system when there’s more than 100 posts it seems, making it impossible to see all of them, “older posts” doesn’t work right).
*facepalm* Oh, Peter. You were this close to appearing sincere.
There was no need – none – to once again try and make the Romani activist appear unreasonable as a way of ameliorating your actions. There’s video. You can hear people in the audience murmuring for you to stop. There are full-page write-ups by people who were at the panel, and claim discussion was not limited to LGBT representation in the first place.
This was about you and what you did, and rather than accept full responsibility for that, you’re still trying to spin it like his “demanding the impossible” somehow rationalizes your response.
Instead of channeling Paula Deen to tell us about how the people who really know you, take your own advice and be quiet for a little bit. You won’t get the moral high ground here, and nobody needs to hear another word from you about Romani representation. Sit down.
Come off it Deena that guy was clearly unreasonable it was clear the second he opened his mouth and then there was that letter. My understanding is that the same questioner or group asked the same question at every panel. PAD outburst was inappropriate and clearly based on blatant misinformation(sorry) but the visceral reaction was clearly to do with empathy for Romani children he thought were abused.
Ironically the Romani characters at Marvel are fairly front and center characters and GENERALLY well written.
Derek, you are beyond wrong. I am Hungarian Roma. They characters are White-washed and conform to every conceivable stereotype imaginable. They are not well written. The writers never use proper terminology and fail to confirm what primary ethnic sub-group or clans their alleged “Romani” characters belong to. There is no cultural, ethnic, national or racial identity associated with them. The Thing and Kitty Pride get to be Jewish and it’s central to who they are. Black Panther and Storm get to be African and sound and look it. Ms. Marvel gets to practice Islam and be a regular American girl. You really shouldn’t talk about things you don’t know. They are not even “generally” well written, especially when they are not being written as not only true Romani, but as true Roma; the group they are intended to be based on the geographic locations of their respective fictional countries.
Chris Q, the Maximoff Twins and Doctor Doom are all very layered and complex characters. They are GENERALLY well written in my opinion maybe less so Wanda but Quicksilver and Doom have very strong voices. When Doom or Quicksilver act out of character the readers know instantly because of the strenght of their individual voices.
If your agenda here is that they don’t represent all Romani people or a “positive” Romani image A) that’s impossible and B) unreasonable and C)subjective. All characters should stand alone. If those characters don’t appeal than by all means campaign for new ones or make your own comics. I don’t mean that last part in a nasty way but if you feel like there is a vacuum fill it.
Even if the guy was “unreasonable” – and, y’know, let’s not act like it’s not in someone’s best interest to portray him as such – that has nothing to do with making racist comments. Again, flip the script here: if Peter had been the audience asking for better Jewish representation, is there any context that would have justified an antisemitic response?
The man could’ve been a raving loon or a Vulcan – it is Peter’s response that mattered, and the fact that he apparently can’t appear contrite without painting the victim of his rant as somehow “deserving it” troubles me deeply.
All I did was report the facts, Deena. I really DID try to apologize. Apparently it was insufficient. That’s all I said. I’m unsure why you’re trying to turn my simple recounting of the facts into something else, but as I said, I did my best. Perhaps you yourself have never been in a situation where you tried to make amends and it wasn’t accepted. If that’s the case, I envy you.
PAD
Chris Q: The Thing and Kitty Pride get to be Jewish and it’s central to who they are. Black Panther and Storm get to be African and sound and look it.
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How is being Jewish central to who the Thing is? This is the first I’ve even heard of his being Jewish.
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As for Storm, she does not “sound and look it.” She has white hair. Her eyes are often featureless “Little Orphan Annie” type white eyes without visible pupils or irises, and when they are visible, they’re blue. Black Panther comes much closer to conforming to your description, though it should be noted that the country he comes from is a completely fictional one, and something out of a sci-fi novel, rather than one that looks like something we’d see today.
Peter, you’re old enough and wise enough (or so I thought) to know that when you present someone you targeted with a racist diatribe as being irrational, unreasonable and/or “beyond help”, what you’re actually doing is ameliorating your own wrongs by highlighting that hey, the other guy was wrong too. It’s Trump logic. I defy you to say there are any circumstances where you’d concede a person’s behavior warranted antisemitic comments directed at them.
So no, you’re not “reporting the facts”. You’re not “simply recounting” the facts. In a post that should have been about you, you made it about the other guy too. So instead of being passive-aggressive and complaining that your feeble apologies aren’t being accepted, try to take a step back and see what you’re actually doing. Or keep believing everyone but your fans are wrong, I guess. You wouldn’t be the first creator to curdle up and go sour in his own echo chamber, you probably won’t be the last.
You are attributing a LOT of adjectives to the guy that I never did. Irrational? Unreasonable? You put quotes around “beyond help” as if I said it. I didn’t. I totally understand why he basically refused my apology. YOU are the one who is putting it in its worst possible light.
The bottom line is that my attempts to make up for my behavior weren’t enough for him, and my subsequent attempts aren’t enough for you. So once again, I just know I did my best.
PAD
So… Who had 8 posts in the pool as their guess for when we were going to see the first “No! You can’t apologize! I still need to be aaaanggryyyy and offended!” post?
You sir, are a troll.
I’m not sure you know what a troll actually is…
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No, I’m not a troll. I’m just sarcastic and jaded. And a little disappointed. Bad combination.
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When I first read this I thought it hit all the points well. Figured no reasonable person would have an issue with it. Then I realized we were on the web…
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But I figured we were going to get at least ten to fifteen posts into it before we got a post declaring the apology not good enough and trying to continue the screaming.
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And then along came Deena…
You are now attacking an innocent woman for pointing how flawed his apology actually is. You are starting fights with people and mocking them and made extremely racist remarks in a previous thread. Like I said, you sir a troll.
“You are now attacking an innocent woman…”
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No, I was responding to Deena.
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And given that my remarks in the other thread included actually saying that most Roma live their lives in ways not like the more criminally inclined ways associated with the worst stereotypes of the “Gypsy” image…
Tom J., Jerry is indeed a troll. I got into a set-to with him almost 2 years ago over an anti-vax topic, and he immediately resorted to insulting dìçk behavior. He’s obviously only gotten worse. He’s the worst kind of troll: a troll who has convinced himself that he’s actually being helpful. He probably genuinely believes that he was helping Peter out by pouring gasoline on the raging fire with that idiotic “GYPSIES! GYPSIES! GYPSIES!” post.
I’m convinced that he is the same “JC” who got his ášš booted off http://www.supermegamonkey.com for insulting the mental state of anyone who disputed with him over Peter David.
Nope. Never been on that site at all, and I always use my name. I’m always ‘Jerry Chandler’ or ‘JJChandler’ if it’s linked to WordPress.
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And, well, anti-vaxxers are pretty mental, tend to ignore real facts and science, and drag out debunked pseudo science and woo expecting people with functional cognitive ability to take it and them seriously. So, yeah, I finally probably got to the point of mentioning your own defective mental equipment.
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Also, Gypsy isn’t a slur. But feel free to go yell about it to the Gypsy council I linked to. Also, as I pointed out in another post, not all “Gypsies” are Roma.
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But feel free to carry on.
MARK!!!
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Mark, you crazy kid you, now I remember you. I wasn’t making fun of you in that thread. EVERYONE was.
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Okay everyone, just as a matter of record…
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Mark popped into a thread asking why people were still falling for the dangerous advice of the anti vaccination crowds. Mark put forward this notion. Guys listened to Jenny McCarthy and took her advice because she was naked in Playboy and looked hot, and they figured if they listened to her and pleased her then she’d be pleased and get naked again and maybe do a pørņø or something. Plus they listened to and took her advice in hopes that while watching her on shows like The View (which was prerecorded) they would see a bøøb pop out.
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His words by the way, not me being juvenile when talking about breasts.
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His position on the matter went downhill from there. But don’t take my word for it, here’s the link.
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http://www.peterdavid.net/2015/02/02/why-are-people-still-discussing-vaccines/
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The background formatting has gotten screwy in the archives, so it’s a little harder to quickly skim for names. Just use the search function to find his full name.
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Seriously, Mark, if you don’t want to be butthurt for just shy of two years over having your comments laughed at in a conversation like that, don’t try to seriously suggest (among other things) that fathers are putting their kids’ lives at risk because they hope an aging Playboy Playmate has a wardrobe malfunction on prerecorded and edited television shows or will be pleased and do a pørņø for them.
Jerry is not a troll.
But like real trolls, he does get a lot of online enemies.
Unlike actual trolls, these enemies are frequently foolish people who confuse arguments that make them look foolish with attacks on their character.
I will say he is too quick to label people idiots but, in his defense, it’s often an accurate assessment.
On the topic at hand, to Peter, full credit sir. I thought the attacks on you were very overblown and churlish and said so. I also thought some of your remarks on the Romani were probably ill advised but I saw no reason to dogpile on (another case where people manage to hurt their own cause with bad behavior. Even when you agree with parts of their cause you don’t want to be seen as being one of them.). Not all cultures are equal but one should always beware of drawing too broad a conclusion from too small a sample.
Now, nothing you say will matter to the hardcore types often labeled as SJWs because taking scalps is what it is all about. Indeed, they will take any apology as an admission of all the sins that you have been accused of. Try not to care.
Tom J., Deena, Christopher Quinn, et al.: see what I mean? I don’t think he’s able to stop himself. I suspect he has a brain lesion.
Butthurt? Pfft. Tom J. correctly called you out as a troll and I backed him up. You probably think he’s butthurt also. If Deena, Christopher Quinn, and the rest remember you 2 years from now as the guy who taunted then with “GYPSIES GYPSIES GYPSIES! NYAAHH! NYAAHH!” you’ll declare them butthurt as well.
Back on topic: Peter apologized for offending the Romani community. He obviously wants this imbroglio to end. Why don’t you follow his example, Jerry? Quit trying to charge that Romani man at the panel with Contributory Negligence. Quit telling the Romani folk around here how THEY are supposed to take “Gypsy”. Quit. Just Quit. Let it END, already!
Gentlemen: enough. I mean it. Enough.
Jerry Chandler may be many things, but he is not a troll. Attack me all you want; but I’m calling an end to this particular sniping. Any further “Jerry is a troll” comments will be either disemvoweled or just deleted. This ends now.
PAD
Fine by me. As I said above- Ever Forward.
You, sir, are a class act. As mentioned in a previous post, the art of apology has been lost of late (especially considering current events!). Nice to know that it is still being practiced.
This whole situation bothered me a lot, because I’m a big fan of your work and I would hate to think “I remember that time Peter David believed that dumb urban myth about the Romani people” every time I read X-Factor or Spider-Man 2099.
I’m really happy to see that you’ve come out the other side of this whole thing a bit wiser and better as a person.
Agreed, but not just the Romani, but the Roma, my people. It will be hard for to get over, and make if somewhat difficult to enjoy my old and current Spider-Man 2099, but I do forgive Mr. David.
Thank you, Peter.
Very well done, sir. I didn’t read much of the whole brouhaha (just a crazy busy time), but what I saw of it left me pretty uncomfortable. I’m glad you were able to step back and reassess.
Thank you so much for your apology! I was saddened when I had heard about your outburst at NYCC and reading your earlier blog post.
As a Romani, born and raised in NYC, I can understand why Roma pop would ask so much of you. I also understand that you may not be able to do all of these requests.
What I suggest besides writing about Romani characters, you can bring more awareness about the Romani by maybe mentioning the stigma behind the word gypsy and how media portrays us. Anything you can think of that can educate more Americans about us. It seems that, from my experience not every one knows who we are. Any little awareness can help, even writing about Romani characters, knowing people who are die hard fans of Marvel did not even know quicksilver was Romani or didn’t think much of it.
Again thank you for your apology, I look forward to your work!
Hey, I am full-blooded Hungarian Roma (most likely Vlach–I was born with a fair complexion, but my natural tone is olive and I get super dark as I tan very easily) and I was adopted by White Americans and grew up here in the States for 98% of my life. I’m also a fellow New Yorker. 🙂 Could we be friends! 🙂
Hello Chris nice to meet you, We can talk more, if you like add me on facebook my name is Melina R. Salifoski.
Thanks
This is the least logical and sincere apology ever. Do you even know that you not only attacked the Romani, but my people: The Roma–the original, primary ethnic Rom sub-group? You clearly do not know the difference between Romani and Roma, and that all Romani people, particularly the Roma, Sinti, and Iberian Kale have suffered immensely for nearly a millennia. You neglected so many things. You neglected to mention that we’re sex trafficked by non-Romani. You neglected to mention that we are wrongfully jailed and are placed in special end classes against are will regardless of our intellectual capabilities. You never mentioned that many of the drug-pushers and addicts we beg for are non-Romani people. You never mentioned that we are maimed and even murdered by non-Romani, (i.e., Neo-Nazi and local and federal police) and that those hate crimes go un-investigated. You didn’t apologize for calling us “homophobic”, You didn’t apologize for calling our “law” “religion” and failing to acknowledge that our “law” isn’t’ what you are saying it is. Our “law” is not uniform our universal and it is not punitive. You failed to acknowledge that we were the second most killed group in the Holocaust, and arguably the most killed disproportionately. You didn’t apologize for keeping “Romani” characters at Marvel White for the last 20 years. You must be a psychopath to even think that if what you ever saw was true it would justify not giving a dámņ about us. Lastly, are delusional if you think that you’ve ever done anything good for the Romani people!
*millenium
I do not actually think you are psychopathic and/or delusional, but please acknowledge that there is even more to the biased of which you speak.
Since you are a fan of Vice, I recommend that you watch this video was well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALdlphTYdi4 🙂
*calling our “law” a “religion”
** not uniform or universal, per se
Derek, you are beyond wrong. I am Hungarian Roma. They characters are White-washed and conform to every conceivable stereotype imaginable. They are not well written. The writers never use proper terminology and fail to confirm what primary ethnic sub-group or clans their alleged “Romani” characters belong to. There is no cultural, ethnic, national or racial identity associated with them. The Thing and Kitty Pride get to be Jewish and it’s central to who they are. Black Panther and Storm get to be African and sound and look it. Ms. Marvel gets to practice Islam and be a regular American girl. You really shouldn’t talk about things you don’t know. They are not even “generally” well written, especially when they are not being written as not only true Romani, but as true Roma; the group they are intended to be based on the geographic locations of their respective fictional countries.
You lost any legitimacy you might have had when you started telling people to kill themselves. That is never acceptable for any reason, EVER.
You have no right to tell me this. You’re unacceptable.
This is the last thing I’m going to write on this site ever, but: Mr. David even forgave me, so you have no right to attack me. Read above comments, you illiterate fool.
Mr. David forgave, so please stop.
As a person who has been attacked, harassed, slandered and threatened online, as well as a survivor of a suicide attempt, I most certainly do have the right to take umbrage with your repeated “kill yourself” comments. Just as you had the right to be offended by slurs directed at your nationality.
Also last I checked, Peter and I are separate people (unless something went really weird last time Barry Allen messed with the timestream). His forgiveness of you has no bearing whatsoever on how I feel about people who tell other human beings that they should commit suicide because you were angry with what they said.
Peter,
I was in Romania at the same time you were, and then again 5 years later. In 1993, I witnessed similar behavior that you recounted in your previous article. While I didn’t receive the same reasons for it that you did (severe abuse), I was told that many Romani were taught to appear disabled or younger than their real age. I saw Romani accost tourists (and was accosted myself, but not threatened).
At the same time, I saw racism and hatred leveled against the “gypsies.” Romanians at the time blamed them for what they saw as their poor image in Europe and around the world. I had other Romanians tell me they were “descended directly from the Romans,” despite the history of being conquered over and over against by other countries, ethnic groups, etc. over the last few hundred years. While we were there, we also heard the story of a teenage Romani who was thrown off a train to his death because some others had taken offense simply to him being there. One quick example, I walked into a sandwich shop with a friend, and when two young Romani followed us in begging (we “knew” them well by then), two older Romanian women starting berating them and hitting them with their purses until they left the shop.
I walked down the street with a young Romani boy who asked me for money in three different languages. We struck up a conversation in my broken Romanian. As we walked, I saw a young soldier sitting in his window cleaning his gun. He looked at me, grinned, and then pointed his machine gun at the young Romani, who took off in a sprint.
I found a new way to walk to work, and the young boy found me. And we struck up our conversation again day after day, always starting with asking me for money. About a week later, he followed me to a park, where we were going to teach baseball to some students, just for fun. They eyed him a bit, but when they saw me talking to him, he was accepted, at least tacitly. We taught the basics of baseball and had a great time when our friends “caught” grounders by stopping the ball with their foot and kicking it up into their hands. The young Romani played along with everyone and when we were done, he disappeared quietly.
I don’t pretend to know the full plight or history of the Romani, although I clearly know about their persecution during the Holocaust and since. At the same time, we are informed by our experience. Peter experienced a tragic moment in 1993 — and it was associated with the Romani and child abuse. While he may not have been given the true context of the situation, that experience isn’t wrong or singular — I saw similar things in similar context — children threatened, forced to sit on handcarts all day with “broken” legs or other defects, etc. I went to orphanages and saw Romani children (and Romanians) suffering from the effects of abuse, poverty, vitamin deficiency, etc. Five years later, I saw similar stories as the country continued a slow slog through recovering from Stalinist (Ceausescu) communism (even continuing to flirt with it then in 1998).
Peter is an artist. Artists incorporate their experience and their imagination. If he were to write a period piece of 1993 post-revolution Romania and were to include elements of the Romani begging and abuse, would he be “at fault” for hurting the Romani reputation? Perhaps — but that doesn’t make it any less true.
The job of an artist isn’t to tell your truth. In fact, it’s not necessarily to tell ANY truth at all. Ending the persecution of the Romani may be a noble cause, but that doesn’t mean every artist must take it up or even agree with it. Peter has apologized for his reaction and explained the emotion and experience behind his reaction. If that’s not enough for you, then nothing else he does or says will be — he is not obliged to any of us, our causes or our opinions of how characters should be represented.
OMG! YOU’RE NOT EVEN A LEGITMATE COMIC NERD!
You never grew up reading comics; you have no right to even been on here, Queen Anthai! The last thing we need is an autistic racist trying to put down innocent people and attacking them for getting rightfully upset. Even Mr. David forgive Mr. Quinn
I can no longer distinguish what is and what is not sarcasm these days.
If it makes you feel any better, PAD, consider this: if you had kept your big mouth shut, you would likely never have achieved this insight. Definitely if the Romapop representative hadn’t asked the question that set you off, you’d still be believing as you did those decades ago.
I remember reading your “But I Digress” article when it came out in the Comics Buyers Guide all those years ago, and it made a powerful impression on me. I, too, concluded that the Romani did that to their own children — after all, you had a photo in the article of such a child, and you recounted what you had seen with your own eyes. We both (you in person, me at one remove through your words) believed your tour guide, and spent years believing the worst of at least a subset of an ethnicity as a result.
I can imagine how mortifying this must be for you, but in the long run it’s good that it happened. Both of us have learned better, thanks to the links posted in the other thread.
To Christopher Quinn and other Roma here, I apologize for the false beliefs I held towards some of your people.
This reminds me of the GEnie Comics RT / SFRT days when I brought up the subject of apparent bias in comics and SF/Fantasy against albinos. I am not an albino, and have met only a very few. But it seemed that albinos were almost always villains in comics and fantasy fiction. Even Milestone Media, the great comics company formed specifically to bring diversity to comics by the sadly late, great Dwayne McDuffie, had an albino villain (Boots).
While I’m not as into comics as I was back then, it seems things haven’t changed so much. Albinos are still far and away more likely to be villains than heroes or even neutral characters in comics.
Of course, albinism is a congenital condition, not an ethnicity. But albinos are discriminated against in many societies, including in some pretty heinous ways. Right now in places in Africa, albinos are being killed on suspicion of witchcraft, or albino children kidnapped and killed for their bones which are rumored to have mystical powers.
Awww. 🙂 Thank you so much. I forgive you. Add me on Facebook. You’d seem like an awesome friend.
Kudos on the mea culpa. It’s never easy to admit when one is wrong, but it’s the right thing to do, and cathartic.
One thing, though:
Peter David: And I’ve wracked my memory, but the more I do, the more I come up empty on recalling any examples of children with busted elbows or gouged eyes, even though my guide assured me that was the case. And of course Wikipedia didn’t exist two decades ago for me to check through his claims.
Wait, you’re using Wikipedia now to check the validity of information??? When did this happen?
Wikipedia was the reference source people used to point out the genetic disease that. I was told was occurring because of parental abuse.
PAD
Wikipedia? The do-it-yourself authority on everything? The one where anyone can change any entry to make it fit their beliefs?
Perhaps a more authoritative source – say, a REAL one – might provide better data.
But if you don’t believe in the validity of Wikipedia, then why not use a source that you thought was more reliable? Just because those people cited it didn’t mean you had to follow them; If you think Wikipedia is not reliable, then what good is reading it to see if it says what they say it does? Why not find a different source through a Google search that corroborates what they were saying?
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Eric L. Sofer: Wikipedia? The do-it-yourself authority on everything? The one where anyone can change any entry to make it fit their beliefs?
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You cannot change any entry to make it fit anything. If you do, or make any edit that violates the site’s policies, it’ll be reverted.
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Eric L. Sofer: Perhaps a more authoritative source – say, a REAL one – might provide better data.
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And since Wikipedia requires the material in its articles to be supported by inline citations of reliable sources (and its science articles have been found by the peer review journal Nature to be comparable in reliability to those of Britannica), a well-developed Wikipedia article on the disease in question will be filled with such authoritative sources, much in the same way that using Google may yield such sources. But no one ever complains about using Google as a source, even though there may sometimes be a lot more sifting through reputable and worthless websites that show up in its search results, since Google takes no responsibility as to the reliability of the sites yielded by its searches.
Looking at the way some (emphasis on SOME) of the individuals are behaving here, I am gaining an understanding of just how the current US election has gotten to the state it is in.
I’ll admit to being blindsided when I first read your comments, bc they were insensitive, offensive, and racist. As someone who has enjoyed your writing since mid-way during your Incredible Hulk run (and *all* of your Supergirl series), I was very disheartened. I’ve come to recognize that *all* of us have blindspots, biases, and prejudices. The problem is when we’re forced to confront those and instead of engaging in self-reflection, doubling down occurs. This apology is a good first step. The hard work begins now, with follow up (as anyone who knows about being truly apologetic knows).
Good evening from the UK,
I’ve read your second response and I appreciate it that you’ve gone an extra mile to think about it. However, in your apology, I still sense a remnant of the original prejudice.
Let me speculate. Imagine that it’s 1993, 4 years after the fall of the Berlin wall and a Central or Eastern European travels to the US. The person comes from a country that had had no non-white ethnicities on its territory. They see an Afro-American person with a child who is handicapped/crippled. The European asks a white American guide whom they don’t really know; they don’t know whether the guide is trustworthy and what kind of relationship they have with an ethnic/racial group that has been historically oppressed in the US. The guide provides an answer and the European takes it as an explanation without asking either the Afro-American person, or the child (or no other Afro-American).
Twenty three years later, they use this anecdote to make a generalising statement about all black people.
I’ve written to you, referring you to historic/academic literature. The point I was trying to make is that you cannot tar a very diverse grouping of very diverse people with the same brush. Whether someone is Romani, Afro-American, Jewish, LGBT… any other historically persecuted and oppressed identity. FYI, in Europe, accusations of child abuse are the most frequently repeated tropes that non-Roma use against Roma to remove children from the family’s care and to institutionalise them. There’s a very rich pool of literature on the issue.
I’m not romani and regardless of your apology I found your comment to be completely flippant and ignorant. I have subsequently removed your utterly boring spider-man 2099 from my hold list and replaced it with a Valiant title. You have clearly lost what ever skill you once had. I will also never buy anything you write from here on out either and encourage others as well.
Just wanted to weigh in here as a non-Comic aficionado but a colleague of Vicente – the Romani man who asked the very soft-ball question to the LGBTQ panel.This guy is a brilliant, selfless and self-taught academic (because Romani children are often driven out of schools due to racist segregation policies and bullying),and he leads study abroad programs connecting our students with Romani communities across Europe every winter.
Those of you who don’t understand why someone would be so dedicated to wait in these endless CC Q&A lines in order to gently challenge the narrative for Roma people through Pop art have clearly never visited a Roma camp in Europe to witness the unbelievable poverty and marginalization many Romani people endure. (Many are also doctors, lawyers, professors..) Vicente has dedicated himself to this cause, despite the physical, emotional, and financial costs, and he deserves the utmost respect. He isn’t “demanding” anything. He’s just trying to make progress. He’s also a huge fan, which made this particularly painful. Thank you for the apology, Peter. Vicente is speaking on our local university campus next month and perhaps you might fly to Seattle to appear with him? We could talk about how easy it is to define people by a single story. That would be the best apology. https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story?language=en
-Erin
Do you think comic writers are made of money?
Don’t be too hard on yourself, PAD. There’s a lot of folk who in your position would have doubled down on their ignorance rather than admit they were wrong.
I’m proud to count myself among your fans.
We’re all flawed beings. The only ones we should have intolerance for are the ones who never question themselves or turn a blind eye to others’ sufferings. And that’s not you Mr. David. Glad to be a fan.
Mr. David,
Could you please delete my comments. I don’t want any further part in this thread. Thank you.
Humbly,
Chris Quinn
Please also delete my comments on the “Me and my big mouth” post as well. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Chris Quinn
ALL your comments? No, I won’t do that because too many people replied and it will render the whole thread incomprehensible. Besides, if there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that it’s important to live with the things you say and simply try to do better in the future rather than change or delete the past. Honestly, Chris, the best thing you can do is hang around, chat with people on other threads, be friendly, and become a regular and reasonable contributor to the site. That’s my advice FWIW.
PAD
Mr. David, I still believe your initial reaction to be absurd.
You got angry at ALL Romani people. There are more than one Roma group in Romania and there are many more groups scattered across Europe. Apparently, not all call themselves Roma, but other Romani names like Kale.
I recommend you familiarize yourself with their diaspora and history (500 year enslavement, Romani Holocaust, etc.)
Another commenter mentioned all of this in a previous thread and I decided to look into it.
And guess what? Everything he said was spot on and now I’m all the better for knowing it.
So, given this, back to the absurdity of your remarks: You can’t blame an entire race for the undesirable actions of a small portion of a specific sub-ethnic group.
Also, why would you knowingly write a half-Romani character for two decades and then say “Why should I give a dámņ about them!?” after having witnessed around the same time you began writing the character?
If you’ve always despised the Romani, or in this case, the Roma, so much, why did you write them for so long?
Peter, as someone who has been reading your work for 25 years – as long as I’ve been reading comics, period – I know for a dámņ fact you’re no racist. Your experience twenty years ago would traumatize pretty much anyone (I got a little anxious looking at the picture you took of the deformed child), and clearly informed your outburst at the convention. You’ve offered apologies and contrition and have educated yourself and decided to move forward, which is the best anyone can do in such a circumstance. What I find interesting about the entire discourse is that, to my knowledge, there really haven’t been many stories that focused on Quicksilver, Doom, or Scarlet Witch through the lens of their Romani heritage, so in truth, I feel like the gentleman at the convention, while well-intended, was choosing to focus on something that really wasn’t ever an issue to begin with. Of course representation of minorities is important, but if we focus on them simply in the context of being a minority, aren’t we just potentially propagating stereotypes and perhaps worse yet, distilling their identity down to simply being “a minority?” Quicksilver, Doom, and Scarlet Witch are people, well-rounded characters first, and being Romani is but a piece of that particular puzzle. Although representation is important, viewing everything through that particular lens is its own kind of stereotyping. (Something ComicsAlliance indulges in all too regularly.) If I were a black man, I would want to be viewed as more than just “a black man.” Because we are the sum of our parts, nothing more, nothing less. A tip of the hat to you, sir, for your handling of this situation, for learning, growing, and being willing to admit your mistake.
Now, keep on writin’ that stuff I love so much. (And for God’s sake, let’s get a boot up Marvel’s ášš to get Madrox back to the land of the living ASAP.)
Thank you very much for your kind words. They are much appreciated.
PAD
Honestly Peter, you’ve given the standard “I’m sorry if you were offended” non-apology. I hope you can learn from this, but considering how incredibly racist your statements were I doubt it. I wish you’d given your horrific rant here in Canada so you could be charged for the hate speech you were spouting. Thanks for making the comics world just a little bit more crappy and unwelcoming to all minorities, not just Romani.
Actually, he apologized directly. I’m no stranger to non-apologies. He said, twice, quote, “So I hereby apologize to every Romani that I offended with my comments.” That HE offended. He puts the blame squarely on himself.
Thank you for noticing. It’s very kind of you to point out.
PAD
The only way anyone could take his statement as an “I’m sorry if you were offended non-apology” is by deliberately ignoring what he actually wrote.
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He said, “After all that, I have to conclude that I’m ashamed of myself.”
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He admitted that the more he read, the more he became convinced that what he saw in Romania was NOT what he was led to believe, but something less sinister—thereby leading to a change in his conclusion about the Romani.
He explained the flashback that caused his outburst, and admitted that after wracking his memory, he could not find examples that supported what his Romanian guide told him, further underlining how he was wrong about the Romani.
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He concluded by saying, “So I hereby apologize to every Romani that I offended with my comments,” and further extended his apology to the speaker in the audience, with whom he conversed during the remainder of the con. He did not say “I’m sorry if you were offended”, because he admitted that what he said was wrong, and therefore, everyone who was offended was right to be offended because he agrees that what he said was inherently racially insulting, and not possibly/conditionally offensive to a narrow range of people with quirky ethical sentiments, as your distorted version of his apology would have implied.
Thanks, Luigi.
PAD