Originally published June 3, 1994, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #1072
The rumor was flying all over the Capital City Distribution meeting–supposedly “confirmed” by Marvel sources–and then moved out into the public arena as I started getting calls from people unable to contain their incredulity:
“Have you heard what they’ve got planned with Spider-Man?” they asked me.
There are several rumors floating around about upcoming storylines for Marvel’s flagship character. Now… rumors are good things, as far as publishers are concerned. They get people talking. They boost sales. They cause a public awareness. They boost sales. They get coverage in trade publications. And, of course, they boost sales.
When asked about the rumors in general–and this one in particular–Spidey editor Danny Fingeroth said cagily, “I try to put out as many tantalizing rumors as I can. As always, the real facts will be revealed in the pages of Spider-Man comics.”
A very wise and diplomatic answer. And it should be noted that any story development, no matter how loopy, is not automatically horrendous. Remember, I was Marvel’s sales manager at a time when Walt Simonson said, “We’re going to turn Thor into a powerless frog. But don’t worry… he gets his hands on his hammer again and regains his powers. Of course, he’s still a frog, but now he’s the Thunder Frog…” And it worked, and it sold.
I have also noticed that fans can hate a writer and drop a book… or they’ll hate an artist and drop a book… and yet, if they encounter a storyline that’s utterly abominable, they’ll pick up extra copies just so they can complain about it. So the bottom line can be very positively effected. On the other hand, if the rumor I’m about to tell you is true, and Marvel doesn’t manage to capture the fancy of the fans with it, then Kevin Dooley should really drop Danny a nice thank-you note for turning the torch-bearing You-Destroyed-Hal villagers away from DC and towards 387 Park Avenue South.
Here’s the particular rumor that is spreading like jock itch through the collective groin of comics:
Remember the Spider-Man clone?
For those who don’t, it went like this: Nutsy Professor Miles Warren (a.k.a. the Jackal, although not the one who tried to plug Charles DeGaulle) made a clone of Gwen Stacy, Peter Parker’s paramour who was murdered at the hands of the Green Goblin (in a story that fans with no sense of history believe was written by Kurt Busiek. These same fans are probably, at this moment, trying to figure out which mutant book Charles DeGaulle was a character in).
For good measure, Warren also made a clone of Peter Parker.
There was a battle. The clone apparently got snuffed. Spidey dropped the webbed up body into an incinerator chimney, then went home, found M.J. waiting for him and (it is subtly implied) bøffëd her.
He then spent the entire next issue (#150) trying to figure out whether he was, in fact, the genuine article, or maybe he was actually the clone since the clone had all of Parker’s memories. At the end of the story, he came to the realization that he was, in fact, the original and was, in fact, nuts about Mary Jane (which, considering what we believe happened between issues #149 and #150, is something of a relief.)
This all happened in the mid 1970s.
Then, a bunch of years later, the dangling plot thread of the Gwen clone was addressed, in which it was revealed that she was not a clone, but a poor Gwen lookalike who had been brainwashed into thinking she was a clone. As for the Peter Parker clone, he was in fact Warren’s former assistant who underwent the same process.
With me so far?
Okay.
Flash forward to present time.
The rumor I heard from several sources (and I emphasize it’s only a rumor… but this isn’t a news column, so I don’t have to stick to reporting strict news) is that it is going to be revealed that the Peter Parker whose adventures we’ve been following for the past twenty some years…
He’s the clone.
That, in fact, it was the clone Spider-Man who triumphed, and the real Peter Parker who got dumped down the incinerator.
Except now the real Peter Parker is coming back, the current Peter Parker will go away, and we will be left with a Spider-Man who is both all-new, and yet the original item. The ultimate retcon.
Which means that two decades of character development are moot.
Which means that the marriage between Peter and Mary Jane is moot.
Now, to be absolutely thorough, I’ve also heard it the other way… that the Parker clone is indeed returning, but “our” Peter Parker is the genuine item, and this is just a story element that simply amounts to a 1990s edition of “Send in the Clones.”
But consider…
In the upcoming animated series (from which a toyline springs) Peter Parker ain’t married. Now if kiddies watch the cartoon and then go to pick up the comic, and find that Peter is in fact married to M.J., well… that might be a turn-off. How convenient if Peter were footloose again, but without the necessity of (a) killing Mary Jane or (b) burdening Spider-Man with the stigma of being divorced.
What’s amazing (they don’t call him the Amazing Spider-Man for nothing) is that Marvel could actually get away with it. Sure, long time fans will freak out being asked to swallow the notion that twenty years worth of stories don’t matter. But consider: Popular theory is that the average turnaround in comic book readership is about four years. This means that many present day readers may not be all that attached to the current Peter Parker. Not only that, but five years from now, why, those future readers won’t even be aware that there was any sort of double switch. Remember, after all, that there are readers out there right now who are under the impression that Jim Lee created the Juggernaut.
(Of course, even if it turns out to be a miserable idea, Marvel won’t cop to it. That’s the difference between Marvel and DC. If DC gets themselves into a major fix, they just start over and pretend that the previous stuff never happened. In short, they ignore it, which lends a tremendous air of artificiality to the proceedings. Marvel goes to the other extreme. There’s no crime in coming up with a bad idea; it’s gonna happen. They can’t all be winners. But it sometimes appears that Marvel will belabor a misfire, sometimes for years, so it seems like part of an overall plan rather than a single wrong-headed notion. It’s the corporate and editorial equivalent of Pee-Wee Herman taking a header off his bike, scrambling to his feet and, endeavoring to whitewash the disaster, archly announcing, “I meant to do that.”)
Keep in mind, we’ve had Alec Holland, the Swamp Thing, turn out to be a mass of plant life that only thought it was Alec Holland. We’ve seen the Vision and Scarlet Witch’s children can turn out to be an illusion. We’ve seen the Torch’s marriage to Alicia go up in flames when she turned out to be a Skrull. We’ve seen Superman die and come back, and Hal Jordan turn into a nut. On that basis, brushing off the last couple hundred issues of the Spidey books isn’t that much of a stretch.
Of course, you have to factor in the outrageousness factor.
Every major, highly publicized story arc we’ve seen in the past year or two has escalated the stakes in terms of trying to come up with stuff that will–to put it bluntly–aggravate people. We had can-you-top-this with cover enhancements for a while, but that’s worn thin. So now we’re seeing that same mentality at work addressing the developments for the heros. In theory, this is good. In practice, it could well make people nostalgic for cover enhancements.
Still… I do have to make a living…
So, publishers, here are some suggestions from Your Humble Servant as to other possible shocking story revelations and directions you might want to explore. Just make sure to spell my name right on the check:
CAPTAIN AMERICA. Remember the Commie-fighting Captain America from the 1950s? Yes, yes, I know, he was brought back in a memorable series of stories in which it was revealed that he was, in fact, an imposter who only thought he was Captain America (complete with Bucky). Now… here’s the shocking switch. The modern day Captain America? He is, in fact, the real fake Captain America from the 1950s, brainwashed into thinking he’s the original. (I mean, c’mon… you didn’t really buy that farfetched frozen-in-ice story, did you?) In a stunning turnaround, it is revealed that the fake real Captain America from the 1950s is, in fact, the real real Captain America from the 1950s (complete with Bucky), and he returns to confront the real fake Captain America. (Okay, granted, the 1950s Captain America is supposedly dead, and his Bucky became Nomad. C’mon. You went with me this far.) They battle, the real fake Captain America is destroyed, leaving us with the real real Captain America who discovers that he also is, in fact, not Captain America, but in fact the clone of the real original Captain America who we have, in fact, never seen before, but in fact in fact, is a man named Murray Peyser who’s been living a quiet existence in Bayonne, New Jersey until Hydra attacks, and he swings into action to become the new Captain America for the 1990s.
IRON MAN. Tony Stark’s armor becomes self-aware, sentient, female, and falls in love with Tony Stark. Tony Stark, who has just discovered that his excess womanizing is a cover for his own insecurity about his sexual identity, doesn’t reciprocate. The armor strikes out on its own. It synthesizes a voice for itself and starts going by the name of “Clankage.” It then runs amok, cutting a swathe of destruction and mayhem through the Marvel Universe in a twelve issue storyline entitled “Maximum Clankage.” At the end of the story, the armor vanishes and is presumed dead, but in fact has moved to Attumwa, Iowa, where it will operate out of an abandoned tuna cannery and become a heroic villainous figure. There will be four four-issue limited series, followed by a new ongoing series entitled, in a dramatic twist, Clankage 2099.
SPAWN. In a totally unexpected twist, Spawn from Spawn/Batman teams up with Spawn from Batman/Spawn. The upside of this is that, instead of having Spawn wander around the city talking to himself, we now have two Spawns doing the same thing, but at least they look like they’re having a conversation (Tribute note: preceding joke swiped from Lily Tomlin.) The two Spawns investigate their murder and discover, to their shock, that they’ve made an error. Spawn was not killed by Chapel of Youngblood as had previously been thought, but in fact by Nurse Chapel from Star Trek, thereby setting up the much awaited Spawn/Star Trek, Star Trek/Spawn crossover.
ARCHIE/LOBO CROSSOVER. Archie discovers that he, and everyone in Riverdale, is trapped in a time vortex and haven’t aged in fifty years. It’s an insidious plot put forward by old Legion opponent the Time Trapper, and Lobo is dragged into the confrontation. The vortex is destroyed, and the Archie characters age overnight into the older versions who showed up in the made-for-TV movie a couple years back.
PUNISHER. In a totally unexpected twist, it is revealed that Frank Castle is, in fact, not human (which, let’s face it, explains a lot.). He is a previously unknown and unhatched Cosmic Cube. In a bookshelf edition entitled “PUNISHER: YOUR FAMILY’S DEAD, GET SOME COUNSELING ALREADY,” the Punisher is ambushed, riddled with more holes than a Tim Burton movie, and left for dead. He then splits apart and becomes two new beings, one female, one male: The Punisher and the Punishim, respectively. The Punishim is a berserker who goes around and slays tons of criminals using tons of heavy armament. The Punisher is a thoughtful, considerate and angst ridden heroine who goes around slaying a few criminals with a two-shot Derringer. Except a line of Punisher fashion dolls to appeal to female readers.
And just remember… you read about it here first.
(Peter David, writer of stuff… in the vein of discussing upcoming unexpected plots… apologizes in advance to all the readers who will not be able to find Aquaman #2 in August. Events occur that are as cataclysmic (but not as stupid, one hopes) as any of the foregoing, and the artwork by Marty Egeland and Brad Vancata is, quite simply, exceptional. But retailers are unaware of it and orders for it will undoubtedly be lowballed. Sorry, folks.)
• 
Lily Tomlin reads Spawn?
“Sure, long time fans will freak out being asked to swallow the notion that twenty years worth of stories don’t matter. But consider: Popular theory is that the average turnaround in comic book readership is about four years. This means that many present day readers may not be all that attached to the current Peter Parker. Not only that, but five years from now, why, those future readers won’t even be aware that there was any sort of double switch.”
What is past is prologue.
Shortly after 2099 Unlimited came out, I sent a submission in to that title for a back up story featuring Venom 2099. The premise being that the technological devices used on WarWorld to upgrade Rhody’s Iron Man armour during Secret Wars was also an alien symboite, like Venom. And, that when Rhodes abandoned those components in the artic, he avoided the creation of a mechanical Venom-like creature.
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Fast forward to 2099, and some thrill seeking kids find an abandoned underground outpost of the Vault. They accidentally free a creature who is half Venom suit, half Warlock who kills all but one of them, using that one as a host to try and escape.
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Except, this host has a White Knight personality. So, we have a character who is like Iron Man, except he can morph his suit’s physical properties like Venom. The person is someone who enjoys danger, but is at heart a “do-gooder” and the suit is a murderous psycho looking for revenge at being locked up and isolated for 1,000 years.
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Thinking back on it now, I see a lot wrong with the execution. But, I still like the premise. The components Rhodes got during Secret Wars didn’t work properly, and once abandoned were never mentioned again. I’ve always thought that was a dangling plot thread. Because, if it wasn’t important, then why mention it?
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Theno
Nice idea!
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Mark Gruenwald addressed the plot point in Quasar #8. It was stated that the reason the components didn’t work on Earth was because the alien technology was alive. After Rhodey abandoned them, the components fused together into a crude organism that then started assimilating whatever other components it could find. It grew into something quite formidable….
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Enter Quasar with his (then) mission to seek out rogue extraterrestrial lifeforms.
Sarcasm mode on: Hmmm… The clone saga tickles my cerebellum about some other big change… Something about an editor concerned that fans of a certain movie franchise will pick up the comic, become confused that the character is actually married, and in a misguided attempt to make the comic universe more like the “movie” universe, retcons the whole relationship out of existence in a much-maligned story. For some reason, it’s reminding me of some quote about those who don’t remember history… Can’t quite put my finger on it… Cancel sarcasm mode. 🙂
The parallels to “The Last Spider-Man Story I Will Ever Read” aside, I’m surprised at how close some of your predictions came.
And to update Tomlin’s joke, I often think the homeless wandering the street should be given inoperative bluetooth earpieces so they can at least look like they’re having a conversation with someone else.
John W Campbell once blurbed a story in Astounding/ANALOG (can’t recall the story, but the blurb’s stuck with me for something like fifty years):
Didn’t Mark Twain write, history dosn’t repeat, but it rhymes?
I don’t recall that as a story blurb, but as a response in the letter column.
“The ultimate retcon.”
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Or so Mephisto wants you to believe.
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Considering what Marvel has published in the last couple of years – returning to the Clone Saga, bringing back Onslaught, and so on – it seems that Marvel has no intention of letting bad ideas go away.
So, did Kevin Dooley ever send Danny that thank-you note?
So really, Marvel have been trying to destroy Peter and MJ’s marriage almost since the ceremony.
Not the company as a whole, but elements within that can’t stand the thought of the book changing in any way from what it was in their long-faded, inaccurately-remembered youth.
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(Who, me, bitter?)
Yeah, John– especially since they buried the groom for weeks afterward. Too bad they forgot to kill him first.
Ah yes, bad comic books: when soap operas can completely ignore both logic and physics.
Incidentally, there was an IRON MAN limited series where the armor became sentient and attacked Tony Stark.
And the Archie theory makes a lot more sense than the current universe. My impression (I don’t read it — never liked it) is that they make a lot of references to current pop culture and themes, though it’s still set in the 1960s.
You know, that Iron Man storyline more or less happened.
*shudder*
The 90’s were a dark time for comics…
That one happened in 2001, actually.
My first Spider-man comic book was Amazing #180, where Peter finally graduated from college, so I was blissfully unaware of the whole ‘original’ clone saga.
Then came Ben Riley and the Scarlet Spider, so I just dropped the entire Spider-man family of titles from my reading list.
Considering some of the things Marvel has done to the character since, I’m glad I never returned to the series.
I always wondered whatever became of Kevin Dooley. I’d always imagined he’d moved to Cincinnati and bought a residential dirigible there.
Dooley pretty much faded into obscurity after Aquaman tanked after his ill-advised idea to move in a Peter-less direction. (Not that I read Aquaman, mind you, I have always felt the departure sucked, ’cause it came soon after Marvel got that same idea for the Hulk)
I also feel that he should have also addressed the issues laid forth by fans who wanted Hal back as Green Lantern. Ya know, “HEAT” (“Hal’s Emerald Attack [later Advancement] Team”?) instead Ron Marz, has to justify decisions he didn’t make, but Dooley, Mike Carlin, and Denny O’Neil did!
I was in Books-a-Million today (having read this column before i went out), and i observed that, once again, Marvel has made what i consider to be a Really Dumb Move – taking the only two Marvel books/characters i’ve actually cared about in the past ten or so years (not that i’m saying that they were necessarily particularly *good*, mind you – just that they caught my fancy), Araña and Spider-Girl (having ended Araña’s original run in a spectacularly stupid fashion anyway) into what looks {on a quick horrified perusal} like a Latina Batgirl clone.
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Sigh.
Judging by the first issue, I think the new Spider-Girl series looks great. I like it better than her first series. Although I do wish she could get her own name back. (Isn’t Arana spider-ish enough?)
Y’know, despite it all, the train wreck that would ultimately be known as the Clone Saga actually got me reading the Spider-Man books regularly for the first time in ages. I enjoyed Ben as the Scarlet Spider. That brief period ended shortly after Ben took over as Spider-Man, got the new costume, and the new title by Dan Jurgens. I just sort of fell out of the habit of reading them again.
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All on all, though, I’ll take a Clone Saga-era Spider-Man over one who makes literal deals with the devil any day of the week.
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–Daryl
Who’s even more bitter about the current state of the Spider-Man books because it did away with our host’s F-N Spider-Man, the first – and only – enjoyable Spider-Man series I’ve seen since Untold Tales.
And to think, I came THIS close to having my own book again…things are kinda quiet around here since they closed the ocean terminal…and Bucky doesn’t atop here anymore…
LOL.
I got into collecting/reading Spidey comics in a big way in 1991 – before that, I had a few UK Spider-Man annuals (hardback volumes reprinting Spidey comics, along with prose stories and filler material like puzzles and quizzes). The J.M. DeMatteis/Sal Buscema and David Michelinie/Mark Bagley runs on “Spectacular” and “Amazing” respectively got me hooked on current Spidey comics, and back-issues, trade paperbacks and reprint titles like “Marvel Tales” and “Spider-Man Classics” allowed me to get my hands on older stories. It was bliss being a Spider-Fan back then…
…And then around 1994-1995 the Clone Saga came and pretty much put me off buying new Spider-Man comics. I HATED that storyline and what it did to Spider-Man – not only was it a crappy idea that dámņ-ņëár invalidated 20 years of continuity, but all of the Spider-titles were blighted by cross-overs so you had to buy all of them to have a complete story (not that the stories were worth completing). In the years since – when the Clone Saga was rectified, only to be succeeded by more daffy storylines – I’ve never let go of my love for Spidey, and there are still many older stories for me to get my hands on (thank God for the “Essentials” paperback series) – but generally I’ve stayed away from buying new issues. The Clone Saga started a trend of writers doing everything they could to turn Spider-Man’s life to crap, and I don’t get off on reading that.
The ending to the original 1970’s clone saga was considered rather crappy back then as well. The entire letters page to Amazing Spider-Man #153 was devoted to explaining away all the mistakes in it. Too bad that page never got reprinted…
Re: ASM#153 letters page not being reprinted: Maybe not in print, but there was a CD-ROM set and then later a DVD-ROM containing all the issues of Spider-Man to near the then-present, including ads and letter pages. The DVD-ROM is called The Amazing Spider-Man: The Complete Collection and goes up to #531 plus Annuals.
It’s almost unbelievable to me that I would rather go back to the dark days of the Clone Saga than deal with One More Day/Brand New Day. Even through the relentless Clone Saga and my almost constant feeling of, “What the heck are they DOING?!” I still wanted to see how it ended and kept buying the books. It’s all a blur now, but every month brought a hope that the story would end and sort things out, and after way too long a wait they did exactly that. But as soon as I read the end of One More Day, I dropped Spider-Man from my comic orders. The only times I’ve gone back have been when Mark Waid would write an arc, which were few and far between the last few years. Add in the cancellation of The Amazing Spider-Girl, and for the first time since I started collecting comics thirty years ago, I’m not reading about an arachnid-powered Parker each month.
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The thing that I think creators forget sometimes is that comics can be a lot about wish fulfillment. I’m a short nerdy guy and, despite all his problems, I wanted to be Spider-Man more than other heroes. I could relate to him and kept wishing that things would go his way. Things got better as years went on when he finally got the girl. A supermodel, no less. He was an Avenger. He got away from the psycho at The Daily Bugle and found a job as a teacher, which I think suited him better. His Aunt May finally found out his secret and it brought them closer together. And in one storyline, it all went away. The good guy lost as profoundly as could be. I felt at the time and still feel that it was a stupid creative decision that was poorly handled and it damaged what is arguably the greatest character in comics. Maybe time will change that view, but for now I’m happy reading the older Spidey stories. Even The Clone Saga.
For the record, here’s my ending to One More Day:
Spider-Man makes the deal, erasing the past but letting Aunt May live.
He goes back in time and with his memory still intact — he sees Aunt May healthy, happy, waving…
…and she’s hit by a bus and dies.
Seriously, when — except for One More Day — has a deal with the devil *ever* worked out well for the person making the deal?
In fact that’s actually largely Ghost Rider’s origin: Johnny makes a deal with the devil to save Crash Simpson from cancer and Crash, true to his name, dies in a motorcycle accident insteads
In recent issues, the erasing of the knowledge of Spider-Man’s secret identity from most of the Marvel universe isn’t the doing of Mephisto, but Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and Dr. Strange. Maybe Marvel is trying to move away from the idea that Spidey would actually deal with the devil?
Yeah, I read those “One Moment in Time” books with a growing sense of confusion. I still have absolutely no idea what MJ’s side deal was, unless it was getting Mephisto to make Peter think he got help from the Illuminati instead of the devil.
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And I’m not quite sure which would horrify Peter more, thinking he made a deal with the devil or dragged an unwitting MJ into a deal with the Illuminati in such a way that she remembers stuff she’d rather forget. Or something. Like I said, growing sense of confusion. Actually, I think it went on to a growing sense of WTF?ness…
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I wasn’t really a fan of BND, just the whole idea behind it (“Gee, I think I’ll make a deal with the devil to save my 93-yo aunt’s life! I’m sure she’d have many years left in her if it wasn’t for me!” Uh… wha?)… but I’ve enjoyed most of the actual stories. I don’t see why they couldn’t have done most of them (romance bits aside) while keeping the status quo. Or if they HAD to do it, why they couldn’t have gone the Illuminati route in the first place.
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I do wonder if anybody who was alive for Spidey’s unmasking, subsequently died before OMD, and inevitably comes back to life, is covered…
Actually, from the moment Brand New Day began they insisted that everything that had happened before (except the marriage) had still happened and that they would find a logical in-continuity way to explain all the changes. They’ve been doing that gradually ever since. I think Wacker and his crew have wanted to ignore the One More Day mess as much as possible and keep history as intact as they can. And I think they’ve done a pretty good job (although they have made a few horrible story choices, such as that Lizard story).
Hitler said that if you repeat a lie often enough, it will be believed. It also seems that if you repeat a dubious assumption often enough, some will treat it as holy writ.
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Dumb Assumption #1 – It’s somehow advantageous to change a comic book’s status quo to reflect a movie. That would only make sense if there were plans to get the movie-going crowd to buy the comic in the first place! But as far as I know, the movies have no reflex on comics sales.
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Dumb Assumption #2 – We can’t have a divorced Spidey, because the Tea Party and the concerned parents would storm Marvel HQ and drag the writers and editors through the streets. Newsflash: we had a Superman MOVIE where Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock, and Lois is in a relationship with another man now. And no concerned parents gave a šhìŧ about it.
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“Newsflash: we had a Superman MOVIE where Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock, and Lois is in a relationship with another man now. And no concerned parents gave a šhìŧ about it.”
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Well, that might be because everyone who saw the thing started trying to forget it as soon as the credits rolled.
Newsflash: we had a Superman MOVIE where Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock, and Lois is in a relationship with another man now. And no concerned parents gave a šhìŧ about it.
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I seem to recall a lot of people giving a šhìŧ about that. A considerable number condemned the movie both for those elements (the latter mostly because Lois’s new beau just wasn’t all that interesting, despite the best efforts of James Marsden) not to mention what they perceived as Superman “stalking” Lois by looking in on her. Granted, the movie had other problems which contributed to its disappointing box office, but those definitely drew a lot of criticism.
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I never got the impression that there was concern that a divorced Peter Parker would cause any storming or backlash. It seemed more that the editors simply didn’t want to saddle Peter with the baggage of being a divorced guys, because they feel that he works best as a young single guy rather than a divorcee.
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PAD
I didn’t say there was no criticism, I said I don’t remember any of the criticism coming from concerned parents sobbing the “think about the children” mantra. I just don’t think mainstream society gives a šhìŧ about the love life of comic book characters.
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And hey, I also seem to remember Batman has a kid out of wedlock with the daughter of a Middle Eastern terrorist and no Moral Guardian gives a šhìŧ. Though I never can get the details straight, is Damian Wayne a natural child or a laboratory creation?
Rene, you’re right, you didn’t say that.
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Did anyone say that concerned parents had anything to do with any of the Spider-Man decisions?
No one here has said it. But I’ve seen plenty of folks in other message boards claiming one of the reasons Marvel wouldn’t let Peter Parker be divorced naturally is that they’re afraid of the backlash of conservative parents. And some fans even think Marvel is correct in supposedly being afraid of the great “controversy” that would arise from a divorced Spider-Man.
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PAD himself used the word “stigma” in the original piece to refer to divorce, that would seem to indicate this. Though I now believe he meant the “stigma” of making Spider-Man looking older on account of being a divorcee (one the stated reasons for the silly magical do-over). Also silly, IMO, since nowadays it isn’t uncommon for a guy younger than 30 to be a divorcee.
Okay, it IS a bit uncommon, but not unheard-of, for people to make an early start in their collection of marriages and divorces.
I didn’t say there was no criticism, I said I don’t remember any of the criticism coming from concerned parents sobbing the “think about the children” mantra.
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Well, if you mean parents organizations, I don’t recall it either. On the other hand, you need to remember that I’m in a position where–especially if I’m out doing signings and such–people start talking to me about whatever’s big in comics at that time. And there were quite a few people who told me that they were uncomfortable with taking their children to “Superman Returns,” or had taken them and felt uncomfortable about questions that followed. One comics pro even told me with great annoyance that he’d been waiting for a new Superman movie for years and now here was one and he felt he couldn’t take his kids to it.
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So admittedly my observations on this are purely anecdotal, but yeah, there were concerned parents out there.
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PAD
PAD himself used the word “stigma” in the original piece to refer to divorce, that would seem to indicate this.
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Yeah, well, that’s before I wound up getting divorced. Now I don’t see it as a stigma anymore…
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PAD
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“But I’ve seen plenty of folks in other message boards claiming one of the reasons Marvel wouldn’t let Peter Parker be divorced naturally is that they’re afraid of the backlash of conservative parents.”
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Right… It makes so much more sense that they would rather try to placate the conservative parents by having Peter Parker and crew involved in a storyline that involves cutting deals with the Devil. Besides, if the conservatives would have been dim enough to try to start up a crusade against Spider-Man for being divorced Marvel could have just told them that they were trying to model the modern Spider-Man on such real life defenders of “conservative values” and the sanctity of marriage like-
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Ronald Reagan
John McCain
Rush Limbaugh
Newt Gingrich
George Allen
Bob Dole
John Kasich
Bob Barr
Ðìçk Armey
Phil Gramm
George Will
Pete Wilson
Alfonse D’Amato
and Helen Chenoweth amongst others.
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And that’s just from memory. Anyone who actually wanted to do a little digging could likely double that list’s size.
“One comics pro even told me with great annoyance that he’d been waiting for a new Superman movie for years and now here was one and he felt he couldn’t take his kids to it.”
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Why? Because Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock? As opposed to the family-friendly Superman II, in which Clark and Lois had the premarital sex that led to having a kid out of wedlock?
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People make no sense to me.
(Of course, that’s assuming the guy doesn’t mind if his kids see Superman II, which is perhaps an assumption I shouldn’t make).
“No one here has said it. But I’ve seen plenty of folks in other message boards…”
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That’s just people on message boards. Some other person in some other conversation really isn’t relevant to anything. For any given conversation, there are people having the same discussion somewhere else where both sides are saying something stupid.
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“Why? Because Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock? As opposed to the family-friendly Superman II, in which Clark and Lois had the premarital sex that led to having a kid out of wedlock?”
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Or it might have had more to do with the Super stalking.
Robert Fuller: Why? Because Clark and Lois had a kid out of wedlock? As opposed to the family-friendly Superman II, in which Clark and Lois had the premarital sex that led to having a kid out of wedlock?
Luigi Novi: But we naturally don’t see them have sex, so a child young enough to not know what sex is won’t form that conclusion just by seeing them snuggling in bed, any more than when they see their own parents in bed. That they had sex is an assumption, or an allusion that the sex-savvy viewers can make, but that aspect of their bed time together sailed right over the heads of young kids.
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By contrast, kids do have some ideas about kids being born to married couples, so when they learn that little Jason is Superman’s, it causes those aforementioned questions.
I know, Jerry. Bargaining with the devil also strikes me as a much more Unchristian thing to do than getting a divorce.
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But there is a notion some people hold that fantastical and/or overblow evil is okay to expose kids to, while more mundane and not-at-all evil behaviour is taboo because it may relate to something the kids may experiment in real life that the parents aren’t comfortable with.
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You’ve never seen a church group protest Harry Potter then, have you? Insane people.
“That’s the difference between Marvel and DC. If DC gets themselves into a major fix, they just start over and pretend that the previous stuff never happened. In short, they ignore it, which lends a tremendous air of artificiality to the proceedings.”
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That is one of the reasons I’m less of a fan of DC as a whole, because there is a longstanding editorial acceptance of the laziest writing out ever. The fact that it was used in OMD upset me partially because it was now being used by Marvel.
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(I also disliked the whole expectation that we’re still supposed to find a character noble and heroic that has made a deal with the devil. At least Johnny Blaze figured out quickly that he was an idiot for having done it.)
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I didn’t read the whole Clone Saga, just issues here and there, mainly when it crossed over with something outside of the Spidey family or had an appearance with someone I liked. But I didn’t think it was a bad. It just dragged on for longer than it should have due to various reasons. I hope everyone has read Andrew Goletz and Glenn Greenberg’s Life of Reilly column. Gives great insights into the behind the scenes happenings of such giant stories. Google it and read it!
I seem to remember that Marvel pretty much did admit that the clone mess was a mistake. Wasn’t there a special “100 things you can do with a dead clone” issue?
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They certainly backpedaled to say, “No, Peter really is the original,” and got rid of Ben as fast as they could.
Marvel has a history of poking fun at themselves, they did a “What The?” parody issue of the Age of Apocalypse, but never thought that was a mistake. Heck, most of What The? and Not Brand Ecch! were digs at Marvel more than other companies.
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They did eventually end with Peter as the original, and they did get rid of Reilly, but it certainly wasn’t as fast as they could. It took a couple of years, which is why the storyline is so infamous. Again, the Life of Reilly details the whole thing.
“It took a couple of years,”
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I don’t remember it taking anywhere near that long. The entire story arc, from the introduction of Ben Reilly to his death, took about that long if I remember correctly. However, the period of time from establishing Ben Reilly as the “real” Peter Parker to Ben’s death was pretty quick.
I liked that storyline.
I liked Ben as the Scarlet Spider. Once they started saying that the guy we’d been following for twenty years wasn’t the real Spidey, I had the same problems everyone else had.
All this talk about a possible conservative backlash if Spidey got divorced reminds me of Jim Shooter’s claim that Bill Mantlo (writer of “Spectucular Spider-Man” from 1977-1984) wanted Spider-Man to have an illegitimate child, which Shooter refused to allow as he feared it would be inappropriate for a character who features on children’s merchandise (at least, that’s Shooter’s story. Sadly, Mantlo is not in a position to say whether the story is bogus or not).
Of course, no one seemed to care that Peter Parker had a brief affair with Betty Leeds when she was still married (granted, that little episode was dealt with more subtly).
Yeah, I remember reading the controversy about Spidey’s illegitimate child.
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I am usually a fan of Shooter’s as E-i-C of Marvel, but the man was prone to go overboard with some decisions and pronouncements in fear of parental backlash.
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I also remember him saying there were no gay characters in the MU. And he also seemed to say no hero in the MU had ever killed anybody, and they say there was some fûçkìņg silly story showing all the guys Wolverine stabbed in a hospital room somewhere. But I don’t know if that story was really published or if it’s just an urban legend.
Don’t know about the hospital room scene, but three of the Hellfire Club goons that Wolverine quite obviously shredded, on camera, in Uncanny X-Men #133, showed up again with cyborg parts apparently replacing whatever Wolvie had damaged beyond repair.
Personally, even if the hospital room scene did happen, I don’t think that it really softens Wolverine at all. Having read the aforementioned issue of Uncanny several times, there’s no doubt in my mind what Wolverine’s intent was as he attacked the Hellfire goons. The fact that they, or anyone else that Wolverine has attacked in the past, survived by some means doesn’t change the fact that he was portrayed at the time as fully intending to kill them.
the real original Captain America who we have, in fact, never seen before, but in fact in fact, is a man named Murray Peyser who’s been living a quiet existence in Bayonne, New Jersey
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Actually, there’s even a further twist. Murray Peyser is only the second Captain America. The real Captain America has been retired fifteen years and is living like a king in Patagonia.
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TWL
Actually, there’s even a further twist. Murray Peyser is only the second Captain America. The real Captain America has been retired fifteen years and is living like a king in Patagonia.
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TWL
Did he change his name to Cumerbun?
Next door to the Dread Pirate Roberts.
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PAD
My new friend Isobel loves dark comedies, Star Trek: New Frontier and fantasy novels… so I thought one of the perfect holiday gift’s for her would be Sir Apropos of Nothing.
Why do so many writers and editors treat continuity as a whole with such contempt? I can understand some cases where a niggling detail falls through the cracks in a collaborative universe shared by hundreds of creators, but when Parker decided to go public with his identity, the writers and editors had to know it couldn’t last. It’s like the whole of the Marvel universe consists of a giant mulligan waiting to happen.
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It’s hard for people to stay fans when any given event can be retconned out of existence by editorial whim.
The DC universe, too. I’m still angry about War of the Supermen, which was meant to be the conclusion of the New Krypton saga, but which was really just one big reset button.
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The more things change…
To reiterate something I’ve said before: I never read the “clone saga”, but I read about it. And from my understanding of the storyline, there was a better way to have handled it: If Marvel had let the reader know up-front— via a conversation between unknown characters lurking in the shadows— that Peter was the original, it would have become clear that some as yet unidentified villain intended to disorient him and take away his sense of identity by convincing him that he was the clone. It would have also told us Marvel wasn’t really going to say, “surprise! You’ve been reading about the wrong guy all these years.”
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Well, maybe if Ben had been enormously popular (I understand he was very unpopular), they’d have gone ahead with the “Ben is the original” plan after all, revealing that these behind the scenes characters were themselves misinformed. But at least letting the reader in on information the characters don’t know would have created “when’s he going to find out, and what’ll happen then?” types of suspense. And the storyline as a whole probably would have gotten less flack.
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What’s more, Ben believing he was the original, with the readers knowing otherwise, would have had a certain tragic quality. Ironically, it might also have made him more acceptable to readers.
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Rick
“there was a better way to have handled it: If Marvel had let the reader know up-front— via a conversation between unknown characters lurking in the shadows— that Peter was the original, it would have become clear that some as yet unidentified villain intended to disorient him and take away his sense of identity by convincing him that he was the clone. It would have also told us Marvel wasn’t really going to say, “surprise! You’ve been reading about the wrong guy all these years.””
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The problem with that is that their intention *was* to tell us that we’d been reading the wrong guy for 20 years. Without that, they probably wouldn’t have done the story at all.
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Ben was actually very acceptable to readers when he was the Scarlet Spider.
The people behind the clone saga showed what I think is perhaps a naive perspective in a recent interview in Back Issue. They acknowledge that it was overlong but feel that if they were still respectful to Peter and had given him and MJ their hap[p[y ending sooner, that readers would have actually come aroiund to Ben being the real Spidey. My feeling is more that had the story been shorter, there would have been less ire towards Ben, but I don’t think readers were ever going to accept that they had spent years (and for some readers decades) buying the adventures of the clone when they thought they were buying the real thing. Somehow despite the shared memories it’s still a bait and switch, albeit retroactively
So I just read a news report stating that one of the FF4 is going to die. We’re being promised, like with every major comic book death, that this death will be permanent and will send “ripples through the Marvel Universe.” I think it’s a good measure of cynicism to find out what the first question to pop into minds of fans.
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For me, I didn’t even wonder who it was; I wondered how long permanent is this time.
Yeah, there’s no reason to believe any of it any more. It doesn’t help that Marvel’s event hype has gotten ridiculous. Every thing that happens is HUGE and WORLD CHANGING and THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.
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Why should I care when it seems to be more about how many extra copies they can sell than the story?
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Oh, look, it’s Invincible Iron Man #500!
“We’re being promised… that this death will be permanent…”
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Did they actually promise that? I went looking for this on the internet and I found an article where the writer claimed that Marvel had said it would be permanent, but then the actual quote from Tom Brevoort didn’t say anything remotely like that.