After the Great Debate

Posted By: Peter DavidPosted On:

digresssml

But first, by popular demand, you can read a transcript of the debate here.

———————–

Originally published November 12, 1993, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #1043

Well, thank God that’s over.

Some random thoughts and recollections regarding “The Great Debate” that might bring some greater understanding of it all to those who were outside looking in:

A day or so after I had accepted Todd’s challenge, I was contacted by the Comicfest folks with the question as to what the debate should be called. They told me Todd’s suggestions were along the lines of, “The Scholar vs. the Holler,” “David vs. Goliath,” and so on. Putting aside how David vs. Goliath originally ended, I told Comicfest ’93 that those titles were wildly inappropriate and unacceptable. A topic would have to be discussed. And no, it couldn’t be, “Why is Peter David telling lies about us?” because that automatically puts me on the defensive. Considering that was the subtext of the whole thing anyway, I was already feeling defensive enough as it was. Besides, a debate resolution is supposed to be phrased as neutrally as possible.

So I suggested, “Resolved: Image Comics—Have they received fair treatment from the media?” Todd subsequently agreed to this, with the modification of “Image/Todd McFarlane.”

Imagine my surprise when, a couple of weeks later, I see ads starting to surface featuring all the rejected titles, plus more. A circus mentality was shaping up with which I did not want to be associated. It was at that point that I insisted on more structured, formal presentations before the thing degenerated into a farce.

Bad luck for Todd, really. If he hadn’t run those ads and tipped his hand early as to what sort of spin he was planning to put on it, I very likely would not have urged greater structure to the proceedings.

You see, the problem when you realize that you’re getting into a mud wrestling match is, it doesn’t matter who wins. You wind up covered with mud no matter what you do.

*

Imagine, if you will, my annoyance. Here I agreed to the debate in order to answer rumor, innuendo, and challenges to my veracity—and the result was more rumor and innuendo. I’m speaking specifically of pros at Motor City Convention in Detroit who contended that Todd and I were in collusion the whole time, and that the debate had actually been arranged weeks before. Their proof? The ads that appeared in Image Comics with lightning speed. Rather than allow the possibility that house ads had been pulled at the last minute and replaced, they speculated that the entire thing was a set-up.

Right. Like I really worked with Todd to produce an ad that made him look like a lean, mean fighting machine, and me like Jabba the Hutt.

I say now and for the record: The first I heard of all this was when CBG contacted me about Todd’s written challenge. I had nothing to do with, and was never consulted on, any of the advertising. Several people told me I should sic my lawyers on Todd or demand apologies for unauthorized use of my name and “likeness” (gee, thanks). I appreciate the thought, but I doubt I’d have a case, and frankly I have better things to do with my time. Maybe not much better, but better.

(And no, as some others have insinuated, this was not some big publicity stunt to set up my writing an issue of Spawn. Sheesh.)

*

For several days I toyed with the idea of carrying on with the “Doctor” gag and having myself wheeled into the debate on a handtruck, wearing a straitjacket and mouth-covering mask a la Hannibal Lechter. Ultimately I decided it was not the way to go. Good for a laugh, bad for credibility.

*

To give an indication of how seriously I took this challenge, here’s what I did: First, I read four books on debating, argumentation, and speech. Then I organized a strategy session at my house wherein half a dozen folks whom I collectively referred to as “The Brain Trust” assembled, to work out directions to take and anticipate possible lines of attack from Todd. I presume Todd did the same. I’d like to think he did, at any rate.

(I will not mention the name of any member of the Brain Trust, in the thought that should any of them ever wind up in any business dealings with Image, I wouldn’t want it held against them.)

I poured over interviews Todd had done, finding contradictions and gaps in logic. I then retyped pertinent sections, pasted them onto index cards and referenced them by topic. Ultimately, I wound up only using half of them.

*

Key piece of material: Harlan Ellison faxed me a textbook definition of a psychological phenomenon called “paralogia,” a condition characterized by the subject’s inability to produce coherent logic. It was the single most dámņìņg piece of evidence I had outside of Todd’s own words. At the debate, I wound up only reading two of the five index cards I had on the subject, and it was enough to reduce the audience to hysterics since—at least on the surface—it all applied to Todd. Particularly when I cited the case study in which one patient concluded that he was, in fact, Switzerland, using the following reasoning: “Switzerland loves freedom. I love freedom. I am Switzerland.” I then pointed in Todd’s direction and said, “Ladies and gentlemen: Switzerland.” Which prompted Todd to acknowledge—echoing my own words about him—”He’s good.”

For those seeking further illumination—and Todd, if you’re reading this, I say this with all seriousness and genuine concern—read up on “Ganser’s Syndrome.” All jokes aside: The implications are just a little bit frightening.

*

An acquaintance predicted, “I bet you Todd shows up at the debate dressed in boxing trunks.” And I tried to picture that and said, “Nah. He wouldn’t go that far to turn it into a joke.”

*

When Don Thompson had to drop out as moderator due to illness (He’s better now. But try and take it a little easier, will ya, Don?), the organizers asked me who I’d like to see replace him.

I suggested Bob Ingersoll. It made sense to me: prominent comics professional and a lawyer. Lawyers are certainly familiar with debate format and are accustomed to seeing both sides of an issue. It seemed a reasonable choice.

They came back to me and told me that Todd had rejected my choice. I was flabbergasted. I’d given Todd carte blanche to pick all three judges without a word from me—and now he declined my choice of substitute moderator? “Todd has some suggestions of his own,” I was told—and was even more shocked when informed that one of the choices was George Perez.

“Does he know George and I are working together? That we’re friends?” I asked. I was told yes. That Todd was naming George in order to make me feel more comfortable. Me, I would have been perfectly comfortable with an impartial party, but OK.

I mention it here, though, so that everyone knows that it’s not as if I panicked and demanded that a friend of mine be made moderator. Also, it should be known that George did the illustration that ran in last week’s column several weeks before he was tapped to moderate.

George, who was on the debating team in school, kept a firm hand on things. He quieted down several comics pros who were heckling from the audience, and lent an air of dignity to the proceedings.

*

In my opening remarks, I commented on the “bravery” of writing an opinion column in which the writer attacks one’s own bosses, and compared it to the behavior of the Image folks wherein they waited until leaving Marvel before making critical attacks. And then I added, “Or at least writing critical essays and having the guts to sign their names to them.”

This, of course, was a clear reference to the famous “Name Withheld” letter in CBG, wherein an anonymous artist said that writers were no longer needed or wanted.

What was interesting was that, when I made that allusion, several people noted that Erik Larsen tossed me an obscene gesture. Fans and pros have speculated on computer boards that Erik was the author of the letter. Infer from Erik’s reaction what you will.

*

People were asking afterwards what Todd was hoping to gain from all of this. Well, it seems obvious to me that he’s gained several things from this:

First, he got Image a ton of publicity.

Second, remember that, when Image first started, they were widely regarded as the underdogs. As time went on and the honeymoon ended—and as its members proceeded to insult retailers, readers, and professionals—views on them shifted into a less positive direction. Todd, being the most outspoken and swaggering, took the brunt of this disenchantment.

What he managed to do at the debate was paint himself as the underdog once more, a status that worked so effectively for him in the past. He used “the humble approach,” as I predicted in my opening remarks, taken to levels that even I would not have anticipated.

Hëll, even I was feeling sorry for him about midway through. The problem was that I was the only one in the room who could not afford to. If I eased up, pulled back as much as I wanted to—well, Todd still had a box of props under his podium, a remote control at hand which regulated who-knew-what, plus cheerleaders and at least one costumed character walking around. At any given moment he could have performed a Barnum-and-Bailey comeback and left me in the dust.

Not to mention that, as the debate wore on, I probably had difficulty hiding my irritation over the fact that I was becoming more and more convinced that this was a waste of time. I am not superhuman nor particularly skilled at concealing my feelings. My opponent’s most effective tactic seemed to be eliciting pity for being overmatched—yet he had challenged me.

So I felt as if I was walking a fine line, trying to be firm and forceful without seeming bullying. It was not easy.

*

I’ll give Todd this: He took losing a lot better than I would have.

He suggested we make this an annual event, and that I issue a challenge next time. I think not, for reasons that I will make clear in a bit.

*

At the end, a young man dressed in jacket and tie came up to me and said something to the following effect: “Mr. David, I want to be a comic book writer, and I was really discouraged because it seemed as if being a writer in comics was useless and irrelevant. Thank you for restoring my faith.”

I don’t know if anything could have made me feel that the whole enterprise was worthwhile, but if anything could, that was it.

*

I had the following things up on the podium with me: my index cards; a picture of my three children; and a postcard from Harlan addressed to Peter “Mr. Socratic Dialogue” David, which read: “The lesson this vainglorious endeavor should teach, I suggest, is to know when one has made the self-immolating mistake of confusing vanity for honor. The unexamined life is not worth living, Grasshopper.”

Despite his contention (before, during and after) that agreeing to the debate was a mistake, Harlan was nevertheless quite helpful (see the paralogia business above). He was also right, which he is an annoyingly large part of the time. I should never have let myself get sucked into the whole thing.

When Todd issued his challenge, I should have said, “If you say I’ve been spreading lies, trot them out. Otherwise don’t waste my time. I have nothing to prove to you. Have a good time at Comicfest and say what you want, but I won’t be there.”

But my problem was twofold.

First, I really didn’t want to spend the rest of my life going to conventions and having fans say to me, “Why were you afraid to debate Todd McFarlane?” I didn’t want them to think that I had something to hide and was not to be trusted.

Second was that I went to junior high and high school in a New Jersey jock town, where guys like me spent most of our days being shoved around by the kind of guys who said, “C’mon out and fight! You brave enough? You man enough?” They made fun of the fat kid with glasses, and wrote “Fág” on my locker.

And I took it.

And now, twenty years later, the right thing would have been to ignore the taunts Todd hurled. Just like I did, or tried to do, in junior high and high school.

But this time—this time, I did not have the strength of character—I could not find it within myself—to do the right thing.

*

What’s really sad about all this is that when I worked with Todd on Incredible Hulk, he had no bigger booster than me. I told anyone who would listen that he had what it took to go places. I cited his quantum leap improvements in anatomy and storytelling, not only from issue to issue, but sometimes from page to page. I was tremendously excited by his progress.

When he asked if Wolverine could guest star, I (along with Bob Harras) engaged in weeks of negotiation and coordinating with the X-Men office, and I spoke extensively with Chris Claremont, in order to set it up. When Todd asked me to loosen up my choreography of the fight scenes to give him more leeway and participation, I promptly did so, because I so enjoyed working with him.

Granted I was sad when he left Hulk—but that’s understandable, I think. I’m sad when any creative partner leaves.

And I will never forget when he came up to me at the San Diego Comic-Con after he’d taken on Amazing Spider-Man, and said to me, “Y’know, bud, I love doing Spider-Man and everything but, boy, do I miss the stories you gave me to draw.”

I wanted nothing but as much success for Todd as he could achieve. I wanted to enjoy that success, being able to think, “I knew him when.” And it saddens me beyond my ability to express that his actions, his attitudes, and his revisionist views of our working relationship—his need to cast roles of good guy and bad guy—have deprived me of that opportunity.

*

Each of us posed three questions to each other. Naturally this prompts—TOP TEN QUESTIONS I DID NOT ASK TODD McFARLANE:

10) How’s the wife?

9) How’s the baby?

8 ) Who put the ram in the ramma-lamma ding dong?

7) Would you please spell “Image” and then say “light bulb”?

6) Think the Blue Jays will repeat?

5) What is your name?

4) What is your quest?

3) What is the average wing speed of an unladen swallow?

2) Where did he get those wonderful toys?

1) If you are chosen Miss America, what will you do to help bring about world peace?

*

As a good luck charm, I was wearing an item I’d picked up at a celebrity auction: A necktie worn (and autographed) by Joe Pesci in the famous final courtroom scene from My Cousin Vinny. My only problem was avoiding referring to the Image guys as “Yoots.”

*

I was thinking of sending Todd, as a sort of gag conciliatory gift, a box of Swiss chocolates. So I went to the local candy store. They had none there. But the sales girl produced a box of Belgian chocolates and said, “Maybe these will do. Is Belgium in Switzerland?”

Is Belgium…

…in…

… Switzerland?

I think, next year, I’m going to debate her.

(Peter David, writer of stuff, is amused by the way that Wizard people and Comicfest people are each blaming the other for one of the most ill-advised ideas to hit a comic con since—well, ever, I think. Namely, a pamphlet handed out at the convention that graded comic pros in terms of popularity. I’m told it’s commonplace in baseball circles. Fine. So is jock itch. Doesn’t mean it should be carried over. Fortunately pros—especially those who didn’t rank A,B,C or D—tried not to take it seriously and mockingly took to wearing their letter designations (with the addition of “E,” for those not listed) on their badges. And, who knows, maybe the fans even appreciated the “guidance.” But it ticked off a lot of people. Since all concerned are trying to distance themselves from it, I think we can safely surmise that it won’t be cropping up again. Good. Grade for the idea: F.)


41 comments on “After the Great Debate”

  1. The debate did answer one question: what would happen if a civilian shuttle decided to take on a Shadow vessel? Honestly? The one well thought out thing McFarlane said the whole time was that he was an idiot for having opted to take on someone he knew left him in the intellectual dust. Let’s face it, when the moderator had to explain a question to him, well, the word “sad” comes to mind.

  2. Wow. I had forgotten that one needed a MacFarlane to English dictionary to get through that.
    .
    You were far too kind to him throughout the debate, PAD. You really could have taken a lot more shots at him, but it seemed as if MacFarlane was “determined” to do it to himself.

  3. As you might guess, there wasnt a bigger fan of Todd’s than myself back in the day when you two were on Hulk together. Your collabrative work got me (hëll, the entire comic community) excited about the HULK again. Those books (and in general, your run on the title) remain my favorite of the characters’ 50 year run.

    That said, starting with Todd’s classless departure from Marvel, and going forward, pretty much everything he has done and said have made me do nothing but be ashamed for him. I wouldnt read an issue of that Spawn drivel if you paid me.

    Gawd! I hadnt thought about this in almost 20 years. Now i’m all riled up again! Thanks Peter!

    1. I think it ironic that Todd claimed I was wrong to accuse him of lying when he broke every promise he ever made to Neil Gaiman. I still think Jim Lee is the most politic of the group and I think Jim Valentino is a stand-up guy. And they publish some good titles such as PVP. Other than that, i don’t really think much about them.
      .
      PAD

      1. Ah, good ol’ PVP, one of the few Gaming comics still printed on actual paper (even if it is collected from the webstrips). Of course they have to do more videogames than rpgs and board games, but still, they survive. (I miss you, NODWICK!)

      2. Well I was going to say “Actually Kurtz is pulling PVP from Image.” and post a link to his posting, but I may have dreamed/imagined/hallucinated it.
        But I swore he said something to that fact.
        And I could Be Wrong.
        TAC

      4. With the exception of Spawn and Savage Dragon, neither of which I bother with, the only Image title that comes to mind is Invincible, which is so good I’d read it if it were printed on greasy butcher paper and sold in pørņø shops. But the rest of Image’s titles do nothing for me. And probably won’t ever, unless Adam Hughes starts drawing them from your scripts, Peter. That’ll happen the same day that the TARDIS lands on the White House lawn, or Paris Hilton becomes Galactus’ new herald.

  7. Having missed all this when it originally happened, it’s great to read about it now.
    .
    Even with what I know about him, I still can’t believe McFarlane spent his time trying to be a magician with misdirection and distraction from the very start. Playing for sympathy instead of playing with facts. Ghost personas? Is that some sort of euphemism for ‘massive ego I cannot control’?
    .
    He tried to chalk it up to PAD being the wordsmith, but that’s simply a poor excuse, because it appeared he fully intended to make himself look like an idiot before the debate even started.
    .
    Man, reading about all this stuff, it seems like some of the guys who founded Image – not all, but certainly a few – were made for each other.

  8. There was a part of the “promises” comment made by McFarlane where I had to think – Neil Gaiman, dude. Miracleman? “The writers not needed” notations about Erik Larsen could this be why I no longer order Savage Dragon? Because it doesn’t sell and none of my customers care to try to READ it? Looks cool… if you’re 8.

    1. Putting aside the fact that Larsen was making a point about writers he didn’t think were very good, like Mike W. Barr, and not “writers” as a group, I particularly liked the part where he said, in his Name Withheld letter:
      .
      If l drew a comic book in the time it takes a “real” writer like Mike Barr to write it, it’d be a pretty sorry-looking comic book to look at.
      .
      Having seen his artwork, which consists largely of loads of cross-hatching slathered all over the place without any idea of how it’s properly used, and females who look like they all have watermelon breasts, corsets, and collagen lips that would disgust Angelina Jolie, I’d have to say that “Sorry” would be putting it kindly.

  11. Having gone back and re-read the transcript of the debate, all I can think of is the line from the end of War Games where the computer realizes the only way to win is never to have played the game. The problem with many debates (and Daniel, I was flashing back to Biden/Palin as well, especially after Todd’s use of the non-word proveage) is that the underdog can put themselves on level footing with their opponent simply by showing up on the same stage. That’s why most incumbent politicians will try to avoid debates and their challenger will do everything can to call them out. If you’re a sitting president, of course the challenger for that office wants to debate you. The line that most commentators use after a debate is the challenger looked ‘presidential.’ So again, there really is no plus side in bringing someone up to your level.
    .
    And Peter, I’m glad that Harlan provided you with the paralogia argument. Anybody who goes back and looks at some of Ellison’s own work- look at his collected An Edge in My Voice columns and check the index under ‘paralogia’ and you will see how how often it featured (successfully) in his arguments.

  12. From reading the transcript, it seems to me that Todd was conflating “respect” and “creative control” with “no one can ever tell me I’m doing something wrong.” I hope he’s grown out of that.

  13. .
    I’m still amazed at the level of idiocy in some of Todd’s statements and answers. I remember reading this thing the first time around and wondering if you and everyone else in the room suddenly realized how pointless everything Todd was going to say was going to be when he started out explaining his abilities as a comic creator by saying he was an artist first, a family man, a friend to the people and then a writer.
    .
    Sadly, Todd’s words lived down to my expectations in the debate and every passing month since.
    .
    That’s really a dámņëd shame too. Everything that happened with Image for a long time was a dámņëd shame. There were a lot of people pulling for them at first. A lot of fans really wanted to see what some of these guys could do on their own creations and a lot of us wanted to see a viable third company change the marketplace from that of the big Two to the Big Three. Even I bought the first few issues of all of their launch titles and quite a few later titles.
    .
    And then they just shot themselves in the foot in every possible way. It was almost like they were actively trying to piss of fans, pros and store owners. They let their three biggest public faces be their three biggest brats and their product was a constant source of annoyance. I swear the only line of comics at that time that gave me bigger headaches as a fan looking forward to something advertised as to be published on X date was Continuity Comics. But even with them they didn’t seem to take the retarded high school jock approach to their PR.
    .
    Some things worked out well for me as a fan. If Image hadn’t almost imploded I might not be reading The Walking Dead and enjoying it so much. But you still can’t help but to look at some of the recent old BID columns and kind of feel bad about what could have come out of the startup that Image was poised to have VS the train wreck they became for so long.

    1. Nah, it was sort of nice that it happened this way. I am glad that as creators, most of the original Image crew turned out to be failures. I’m afraid to imagine an alternate timeline where Spawn and Wildcats and Youngblood and šhìŧ like that truly became the dominant icons in the industry.
      .
      Everything good that came out of Image (Astro City, Planetary, the Authority, Invincible, Walking Dead, Noble Causes, Supreme), was not actually created by the Image founders. It’s very fitting in a way.

      1. .
        I actually liked Wildcats. A lot of the stuff out of Jim Lee’s studio had a lot of potential to be fun.
        .
        Oh… And… Uhm… Supreme? Created by Rob Liefeld.

      2. I really liked Jee’s WildStorm stuff. The rest I don’t care about. And oddly, I don’t much care of WildStorm now that it’s part of DC.

      3. Yes, I know Liefeld “created” Supreme. But then Alan Moore came and created (no quotation marks) Supreme

      4. And it’s just my oppinion, and it is worthy the same as anyone’s, but I thought Wildcats and the other Jim Lee stuff was just good in the way being infected with a common cold is good next to being infected with AIDS or ebola.
        .
        It was certainly a lot better than most Image stuff, but that isn’t saying much Always seemed to me like an even more shallow and frantic version of Marvel’s mutant titles.
        .
        I dunno, maybe that is because I was too old when Image came along, so I have zero nostalgia for it. Actually I was old enough to resent it from the start.

      6. “Yes, I know Liefeld “created” Supreme. But then Alan Moore came and created (no quotation marks) Supreme”

        Since I didn’t really read Image at the time, I wasn’t aware of Alan moore’s work on “Supreme” unit almost after the series cancelation. Once I did give it try i was hooked and hunted down almost every back issue, as well as Moor’s “Judgement Day” and Youngblood. Great stuff. Some of Moores bset work IMHO.

        I find it interesting that while one of the reasons Image was formed was that the founders felt they were being held back (at Marvel) by not being allowed to do what ever they wanted with company owned characters, it was Lefield who finally “walked the walk” by giving almost total control of his universe over to Moore. And credit were credit is due, it was one of the best decsions he made.

  14. PAD….

    Totally off topic, but are you aware some on has make a virtual adventurer’s club?

  15. The only other time I can remember having so much fun reading about a con was the Lobo Convention Special.
    .
    Do you still wish you hadn’t done the debate?

      1. Au contraire, piston puss. (Sorry, got a little “Car Talk” there.) It achieved several other things.
        .
        1) It demonstrated that you are a dedicated, committed professional who seriously knows where his towel is. You took the whole thing seriously, and proved once and for all that you’re not just some court jester.
        .
        B) It cemented McFarlane’s reputation as a huckster and a showman who will do whatever it takes to garner attention for himself (and, by extension, Image), positive or negative.
        .
        III) It asserted your independence and willingness to stand by what you say and do, even in the face of taking on a fan favorite like McFarlane when he attacks you.
        .
        d) It proved another aspect of your professionalism, when you recounted how you’d worked hard with McFarlane during your Hulk run to — first and foremost — produce good stories together, and — second but almost as important — help him develop his style and reputation to advance his career. I recall reading in “Writing For Comics” how you tailor your scripts to play to the strengths and interests of your artists. You put your own ego and “vision” in the back seat to the interests of putting out good stories — that’s a true rarity.
        .
        iiiii) You got a chance to tap Harlan for some help, and the propagation of the “Switzerland!” principle among the public zeitgeist can only be a good thing. In fact, I’m thinking of stealing it and re-using it on my own blog. (Now I just need to find a McFarlane-esque troll to use it against…)
        .
        Reading that transcript, I found myself cursing not being present. That would have been legendary to see.
        .
        One final point: you gave us fans of yours an example for the ages of why we like and respect you, despite being nowhere near as “flashy” or popular as McFarlane and the other hucksters. It gives us yet another example of how we can say “PAD’s a consummate pro, not some prima donna gloryhound egomaniac.”
        .
        J.

  16. Sometimes, just for fun, I like imagine how muh smoother the creation of Image would have been if instead of taking the combative “rebel without a cuase” route, Todd and Co’s departure from Marvel had instead gone more alone the lines of “Dear Comic Fandom, It is with regret my friends and must announce our resignation for the Marvel Family. We are simply at a crossroad were we feel we can not work to the best of our abilties under the editorial restraint that comes with working with established characters. To this end we are announcing the formation of our own creator owned company, “Image,” were each of us will be able create our own heroes, villians,universes and stories however we see fit. We bear Marvel no ill will, and who knows? maybe they’ll be a crossover somewhere down the road.”

    Now, would tis have helped the quality of eary Image comics? Or helped them get them out on time, Or helped in anyway with any of the other problems they ran into down the line? Of course not. But it would have been so much more polite.

  17. One thing that strikes me on reading that transcript; whatever Todd’s flaws, he certainly had enthusiasm for drawing comics in those days. What happened to that guy? Did the financial success of his various businesses kill his desire to compete in the comics arena? Or did he just get too self-conscious about his work? Something about him certainly changed.

  18. Oh, and I think the topic of the debate really should have been “Who started it?” ‘Cause that’s really what this was all about. IMO, the Image guys said a bunch of stupid, immature, and poorly thought-out things, PAD reacted to it, and they reacted back. None of this controversy was really about the subjects that were addressed in the various statements and interviews; it was about people feeling that they and/or their friends were insulted. Which probably could have been resolved by everyone just coming together and talking it out privately, but a public debate through columns and conventions was certainly more entertaining. For everybody else, anyway.
    .
    PAD, your feelings on being involved in this kind of WWF public brawl must have changed somewhat, no? U-Decide was certainly in that vein.
    .
    (I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, so long as both sides have fun with it. But it looks like here only Todd was having fun and you kind of agonized in the build-up to it)

  19. PAD,
    “It served no purpose other than to give Todd everything he wanted. Yeah, I should have skipped it.
    .
    PAD”
    .
    Obviously, you are entitled to your feelings. But I am glad you did it. For a variety of reasons:
    .
    1.) That young man who you helped convince that writing was not irrelevant in comics – which was becoming increasingly prevalent at the time. Who knows how many other aspiring writers you affected? But even if you only affected that one, even if for a short time, I feel it was worth it.
    .
    2.) I don’t see anything wrong with confronting someone publicly about accusations/charges/innuendo/lies. In fact, I think it’s healthy.
    .
    3.) How did Todd get everything he wanted? the near-unanimous perception immediately afterward to this day was that he lost
    .
    4.) Those in attendance obviously were interested in it and have memories of it. That should be worth something.
    .
    5.) There’s nothing wrong with standing up for yourself against someone. I say this as someone who was bullied himself until he learned they back down real quick when you punch them in the mouth.

  20. Man, I still have fond memories of you and Todd’s run on the Hulk. And I still hold a grudge for him not sticking around until issue #350 for the Hulk/Thing fight…just to see his version of a green Hulk.

  21. So is this where the rule: ‘Never get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person’ comes from?

  22. Oh, how time changes things.

    Image is a completely different company now, mostly due to the bust of the “superhero boom”, the influence of Valentino and Marder and a million other things to where it’s a nice little umbrella company for indy creators. I can’t think of ANY company that has changed so much during its existence in comics.

    Toddy Mac, on the other hand, has shown over the years that he doesn’t give a rats ášš about any creator’s rights but his own and his flagship book barely sells more than midline Vertigo books and he’s pretty much forgotten by comics readers.

    As for PAD, I still see his name on books that I (and other people) buy. So, while Todd may have gotten what he wanted back then, I would imagine most people would rather have PAD’s career.

Comments are closed.