This is for people who want to discuss the conclusion of David Tennant’s run as the Doctor.
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137 comments on ““The End of Time” Spoiler thread”
Kind of anti-climatic. Loved tenant but just ehh.
I avoided spoilers but I’m glad I did. I wasn’t sure how they were going to resolve everything in 75 minutes, but they could have done it in an hour. The Doctor’s farewell was drawn out in a Return of the King sort of way, but understandable given Tennant’s popularity. Lots of little things for the fans. Lots of big things, including some homages to Star Wars, and nearly one to Wrath of Kahn. Some fun cameos toward the end, including a few I wasn’t expecting. I don’t fully get Martha and Mickey married. Wasn’t Martha engaged to someone else? The Doctor asking Nurse Joan’s granddaughter if she was happy got to me more than any other scene. We also got to see more of Matt Smith than expected. I thought we would get one line. Tennant’s final words echo the sentiments of lots of fans. The series (and the Tardis) are in good hands.
OK, one question, was that woman time lord who kept showing up supposed to be Susan?
The current speculation is that it might be Susan, Romana, Doctor-Donna, or The Doc’s Mum. One of the producers said that it was the Doctor’s Mum but that has been countered with Romana.
Well, at the wedding, when Wilf asked who she was, the Doctor looked toward Donna…
I liked what was apparently the creation of the Weeping Angels…
Romana was my second guess but I would think Susan would have had a more emotional connection. Sure there was romantic tension between the Doctor and Romana but there’s romantic tension between the Doctor and most of his companions, Susan would have a little more emotional bite I think.
Since they didn’t actually say, I suppose we’re all supposed to have our own interpretations. Given that they went from talking about Donna’s father to glancing over at her, my impression was that the Doctor was thinking of his daughter, Susan.
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Besides, I’m still betting on Romana coming back eventually. She was stuck in another dimension, so she could easily have skipped the Time War and avoided getting stuck on Galifrey.
My thoughts, when she appeared to Wilf again in the second part were: “Oh šhìŧ! Could she be Susan?” And I still think that’s the case.
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The Doctor looking toward Donna at the wedding could simply him be thinking: “There’s your granddaughter Wilf, and that was mine.”
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I did just hear a rumor that the TimeLords might show up again in the new season, if that’s the case then maybe they’ll answer the question then.
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And I gotta say that I loved the Doctor’s Reward. That whole sequence is the only time that I broke during the episode.
“There’s your granddaughter Wilf, and that was mine.”
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Granddaughter, thank you, I should have know I had it wrong when I wrote “daughter.”
I was thinking White Guardian.
Upon reflection, I think she was first cousin to the Cheese Guy from that episode of “Buffy.” You remember: The one who wandered through the dream episode saying things like, “I do not wear the cheese; the cheese wears me.” And Kath was trying to figure out what it meant, and she asked me, and I said, “It meant that Whedon felt like screwing with the fans.” And Joss eventually copped to that being the case. Same thing here: I think ultimately Davies put her in there as a plot device to be whatever the fans wanted her to be. Indeed, it was to his advantage: All the intense discussion about who she was distracts from fans wondering how the hëll she kept managing to do her vanishing act, how Wilf kept seeing her, etc. In short, you’re so busy trying to determine her identity that you don’t dwell on the fact that her presence doesn’t make a lick of sense.
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Sure, I’d wondered about how she got a message through, especially after they made such a big deal about getting just the simplest message through to the Master required driving him mad.
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You’re probably right that the mystery of who she is helped distract us how she did that. On the other hand, just the reveal that she knew the Doctor was probably enough to do that. If he had said it was Romana, we’d all be discussing why she looked so old, how she got out of E-Space, and whether she really became president of Gallifrey as Russel T. Davies said (I only found that out today on wikipedia). If the Doctor had said the woman was Susan, we’d all be discussing where she’d been all these years, how she got back to Gallifrey, and if he’d see her again.
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To me, the mystery of who she is seems mainly like a way for them to say, “whoever you think she is, you might be right.”
I think the fact that in the Wilf-visions she was wearing white, and that all the time lords were wearing red, means that the projections or visions she was sending Wilf probably came from the “future” relative to the Doctor’s time frame. That, and the fact that she says she was “lost long ago”. I think it’s a bit similar to the situation in Blink, where she knew what had to happen because she was there at the time, so she sent the message back to the person who had to make it happen. I do think that it was supposed to be Susan – when the Doctor looked at Donna, I think that was the hint, so I agree with Raphael Sutton here. 🙂
When Wilf locked himself into the chamber there, I can’t help but think that even if he hadn’t done so, the Doctor would still have had to make the same decision, since another innocent human would have been trapped otherwise. The fact that it was Wilf just added the dramatic tension, but didn’t change what would have happened. The Doctor would still probably have saved whoever was trapped, since the mechanism of the machine was such that someone had to be in there regardless.
In short, you’re so busy trying to determine her identity that you don’t dwell on the fact that her presence doesn’t make a lick of sense.
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RTD has always performed such ‘tricks’ with his stories, and it’s one of the reasons I’m now glad that he’s moved on.
There’s also the fact that Rose did pretty much the same thing last season. Just like Mystery Time Lady, she appeared on TV screens, though the Doctor never managed to be looking in the right direction to see her. At this point, I’d say that this kind of thing just seems normal for Doctor Who.
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It also occurs to me that what Mystery Time Lady did was actually a lot different than what Rasalon did. His looks easier because he just sent four beats back in time to the Master’s head while she kept full communication going, but that wasn’t it. Rasalon was looking for a way to form a link that he could drag a *planet* through. She just wanted to chat. Once I think about it, I can believe that her trick was much easier than his, so I’m not so worried about whatever technobabble solution they’d come up with to explain it if they wanted to spend time on it.
I think (I hope) that Davies and Moffat were setting the background for the new season. They were tying things up with the old characters, and setting up a continuing mystery and nemesis with the mystery timelady and the timelords trying to escape in their last day. If Moffat wants to observe the history of Who, and he seems to, then I’m hoping he’s going to address of decades old mystery of The Doctor’s family, and that the mystery timelady will be his way of doing that. I would find a story about his wife, or offspring, much more interesting than a mother-son story, but … why did he cast the youngest Doctor ever? Do you want a 20 something portraying a grandfather, or a son? Hope its not disappointing.
I enjoyed it.
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I though it was a bit of a cheat having the big dilemma of whether to shoot the Master or Timothy Dalton, then just shooting a machine to get the same result. Shouldn’t he have thought of that a little sooner and saved all the drama?
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Other than that, I really liked it. I liked that it wasn’t the Master who killed him. Combined with what happened in The Waters of Mars, I liked that the Doctor had to do what he did *because* Wilfred “wasn’t important”. That’s a great detail about who the Doctor is and who he’s supposed to be.
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Plus, I loved the reveal of who Timothy Dalton was. Even more than the other scary stuff the Doctor listed off about the Time War, that made me feel like the Time Lords must have gotten desperate if they brought him back.
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The few seconds of the eleventh Doctor were comforting. I keep telling myself to trust in Steven Moffat, but it’s still odd having such a young Doctor. The few seconds we got of Matt Smith’s Doctor looked pretty good, like he had a fun feel for the character. Here’s hoping.
The thing that i loved about that “Which one shall I shoot?” sequence was the way that he apparently re-cocked the already-cocked revolver (judging by the sound effect) every time he changed his aim.
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During the first half, i was trying to figure out *why* anyone would design those twin control booths the way they were, but in the end i realised that they were a kind of Hero’s Steed.
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I liked that they thought of a semi-legitimate way to do a farewell scene with Rose without having to explain how that “unreachable alternate universe” was reachable again.
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Overall, it was a good swan song.
Plus, I loved the reveal of who Timothy Dalton was. Even more than the other scary stuff the Doctor listed off about the Time War, that made me feel like the Time Lords must have gotten desperate if they brought him back.
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I agree, but I have to ask: was there any hints/clues as to his identity before The Doctor called him by name? The guantlet, perhaps? (I’m not as up on my classic Who trivia as I wish I were)
No, there were no clues, Yogzilla. Dalton is listed in the credits of Part 1 as The Narrator (who happens to be Lord President). And I figured that was his name, much like we have The Doctor and The Master.
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To have him be Rassilon is something for the old series fans, I suppose. But, as an old series fan, I find it to be unnecessary and distracting.
His Wikipedia page doesn’t say anything about a gauntlet, but it does list several other “____ of Rassalon” items, like a Sash of Rassilon, a Key of Rassilon, etc. They’re all very powerful, so apparently he had a habit of making very powerful items and slapping his name on them. I suppose we can assume this one was called “The Gauntlet of Rassalon.”
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The wikipedia entry also discusses how the legends about him from past episodes of the show conflict a lot. He was a peaceful leader, or he was a tyrant. He invented time travel, or his partner did most of the work and he killed him. It works pretty well with the idea that the Time Lords became so desperate to win the war that they woke up their savior, only to find that they’d given power to a monster.
The whole second part was awesome. I really liked the first part, but the second part of End of Time was just brillant. Their best episode ever imo. Just loved it.
I especially liked the ending sequence with David’s Who and how they brought back all of his friends. Even Rose. Wasn’t expecting any of that and I thought it was great.
Oh and the new doctor: lol! ” I’ve had worse.” “What?! I’m girl! ” hehe. Very funny sequence. Amazing how the show can go from really sad (Tennant leaving) to very funny (Matt Smith entrance) that quick.
I am looking forward to Spring 2010. Still, I will miss Tennant.
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Don’t forget the “Still not a ginger” bit. Made me laugh out loud for a few minutes.
I never considered the woman could be Susan. Interesting. Probably better that they leave it open-ended. During Part One, I thought she may be the White Guardian.
I noticed that they said there were two objections. There’s the mysterious lady, but that leaves the question of who the other one was.
I actually got the impression that wild was a timelord in hiding/amnesiac and that there were hints he may have been the doctor’s father.
Meant to say “Wilf”
Well, they -did- say in the TV movie introducing the 8th Doctor that his father was a Timelord and his mother was human, so I don’t think the ‘objector’ was his mum.
One of the later Doctor Who novels (can’t remember which at the moment) discredits the Human Mother theoryas a ruse the Doctor pulled to throw the Master off his game during the 8th’s lone movie/episode.
But then again, since the BBC itself only considers the TV series as canonical…
When it comes to all his major finales, I find Davies to be hit-or-miss, and this one was largely a big miss. There’s excellent ideas there (an Earth full of Masters, the return of the Timelords, the Doctor with a gun) but I found the execution to be pretty weak, with Simms (I love him, but) never fully fitting into the role, the Timelords being terribly underwhelming despite The Dalton, and a promise of big things from Donna that is hastily written off. I just found it to be messy and uninspiring, especially in the wake of Davies’ work on the stunning TORCHWOOD: CHILDREN OF EARTH.
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Now, that’s not to say it was all bad. Bernard Cribbins was an absolute delight in his brief turn as a companion, and the final final final revelation of the “four knocks” was a punch to the gut. And, while it’s a little forced, I really enjoyed the last 15 minutes where Davies brought his characters and creatures back out for a curtain call, the bit with Jessica Hynes being especially moving.
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So, while the buildup didn’t work for me, the send off was superb and I’m definitely looking forward to where it goes from here … even though I wasn’t ready for him to leave, either.
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As for the mystery woman, when the Doctor looked at Donna, didn’t anyone else think that, instead of seeing a granddaughter, he was seeing a wife?
“…a promise of big things from Donna that is hastily written off.”
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Personally, i felt as if the only reason Donna got any more screen time than the others that we saw at the end was so that they could show her prominently in the trailers.
More because the two main characters were connected specifically through her. It would have been particularly weird to see her any less than we did!
She still has less screentime across the series than Rose or Martha. Bit of a weird coda for her though (after her previous ending, which had me tearing up).
The Mystery Woman’s identity for now will probably remain just that: a mystery.
But if there is a direct family tie to the Doctor, has it ever been “officially” established that he is an only child?
Instead of wife, maybe a sibling?
Then again, personally, I’m hoping she turns out to be either Susan or Romana myself.
I think that… it’s extremely obvious that Davies makes it up as he goes along, but I still enjoyed all the specials, and the finale, for the most part.
I was taken aback by how petty and childish the Doctor got when he realized he’d have to sacrifice himself to open the door. Between that and the end of Waters of Mars, I wish they’d explored that darkness in a more thought-out and fulfilling way. It felt kind of tacked-on for the specials.
I enjoyed the Doctor’s “reward”, but I was kind of hoping that they’d re-acknowledge that there’s another David Tennant out there in a parallel universe with Rose. I wanted the Doctor to merge with his human counterpart while Matt Smith was regenerating, allowing him to retire. Or maybe just pop in for a glimpse of the two in their old age. (yeah, I know the realities are sealed but they can technobabble that away)
Or something.
“Petty and childish” – perhaps.
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OTOH, this was the first time that i’d ever thought about what it meant to the current Doctor to begin regeneration – that it might, indeed, be a form of death.
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Yes, the new Doctor has all the memories, but he is a different person.
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Got to be a creepy feeling knowing it’s gonna happen…
I understand being upset and all of that… but he just completely berates Wilfred. He screams at him and tells him how unimportant and stupid he is. I don’t understand why the Doctor had to be such a dìçk.
Screaming about the unimportance of Wilfred was British irony.
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The Waters of Mars ended with the Doctor screwing up because he started deciding who was important enough to live and who was unimportant enough to die, a decision he had no right to make. The Time Lords just came close to wiping out the entirety of the universe because they thought their own survival was more important.
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The Doctor wasn’t really screaming at Wilf. He was screaming at himself for what he was on the road to becoming, what he knew he had to avoid. It was *because* Wilf was unimportant that he must be saved.
The Third Doctor in “Planet of the Spiders” was the same way: he had come to like himself and his existence, and didn’t want to suffer death of personality. There is continuity of memory with each regeneration, but Ten’s description of it as “a new bloke saunters off” is correct. Ten is dead, just all all the previous incarnations are.
Coming to Earth was the worst thing that the Doctor could ever have done from his own point of view. He lived hundreds of years in his first persona, but has suffered being “killed” every few years ever since arriving on Earth. Living on Earth and caring about Humans has been disastrous for him from a personal survival standpoint.
No, did not like the Wilf in the radiation chamber bit. It was contrived. The bitter Doctor was needlessly scornful of Wilf, who fought well much less for a pretty old guy, firing at the enemy in a breakneck aerial dogfight. My thought was, “Hey, Doctor, get off the cross, we could use the wood.”
Plus, Wilf is the same generation as my late father–no way he’d let a vigorous young person die the death, instead of himself as a codger. Emotionally, to Wilf, the Doctor is young.
Nonetheless, I did still love the Tennant’s Doctor throughout and at the end. In fact, it has an authentic feel that for the final few episodes, the Doctor was suffering greatly from grief, from loneliness, from a weariness of life that he couldn’t shake. PTSD and yes, he had “lived too long.”
In reality, old people often feel that way, like the last leaf on the tree. So kudos to the writers for showing us how it felt to be the battle fatigued Doctor. And in a light hearted episode, still reveal to us the aging Jackie, or Martha’s mom, lonely, waiting for a kind word from the beloved child, desperately worried for daughters gone AWOL
Yeah. Enough–I cried at the Doctor’s Reward, he was truly broken, and as always, a noble soul.
For those not familiar with Pab Sungenis’s strip The New Adventures of Queen Victoria, you might want to take a decko at today’s strip.
I seem to remember the Doctor saying one that there’s no point in being an adult if you can’t be childish sometimes.
I also get the feeling that perhaps Russell Davies allowed David to make up his own final words, as they certainly reflect his true feelings about leaving the role.
Tennant didn’t have an input to the script, but if you watch confidential he certainly had an input into which take was used . . .
Much talk about who “that woman” was. A note about who she literally was: Claire Bloom has worked with the likes of Charlie Chaplin an Laurence Olivier, and here she is doing DOCTOR WHO. What a career!
I just double checked this. We never see what happens to the Master. He’s throwing lightning bolts at Rasilon, Gallifrey disappears, and then the Doctor is lying on the floor alone with Wilf. That actually does a pretty good job of allowing the Master to go away for awhile, then come back regenerated in a new body to suit the new Doctor. No need to do another big returning from the dead sequence, he just walked away.
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Oh, and did anyone else think of the Highlander when Tennant regenerated? It’s cool that it’ll allow them a good reason to redecorate the Tardis for the new season, and I liked seeing the new Doctor literally laughing in the midst of danger after all that pathos, but it was still a little funny in how over the top it was.
The Master will be back whenever they feel like bringing him back. In the original series there was one episode where the Master was standing in fire or lava (it’s been decades since I saw it) and apparently burns up. When he turns up again someone says that they thought he died, the Master just says something like “Didn’t you know? I’m immortal” and no explanation is given. Just like the Daleks “all died” and keep showing up, the Master will reappear whenever the writers want him back on the show.
As for the episode, I thought it was pretty good. They skipped over the usual real-world consequences of the episode’s actions (millions would have died after the Master’s takeover — not to mention having a planet much larger than Earth popping up so close would’ve caused massive catastrophes to Earth), but the Doctor went out heroically. I think the Doctor’s “berating” Wilf before saving him was the Doctor half-heartedly trying to rationalize away what he knew he’d do anyway. And I liked Matt Smith in what I saw of him so far.
Actually, in Tom Baker’s final year they brought back a Crispy!Master who had to merge his essence with another being in order to regenerate. So I think they actually tied in that continuity nicely.
I think that was when they changed Masters – the original actor either was in too bad health or died and they played the Krispy Kritter Master a while and then brought in the new guy, who looked very much like the original.
I think that was when they changed Masters – the original actor either was in too bad health or died
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The original actor to play The Master, Roger Delgado, had been killed in a car accident not long after he had made what was already intended to be the character’s final appearance in Doctor Who.
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But of course, they had to bring The Master back. Two more actors would play The Master (for basically one story each) before the role was finally taken by Anthony Ainley throughout the 80’s.
Everyone here is thinking of “Planet of the Spiders”, what would have been the finale for both the Third Doctor (Jon Pertwee) and Roger Delgado, if he had not passed away before the adventure started filming.
Original script (supposedly) called for The Master to sacrafice himself in an attempt to save the Doctor, because (allegedly) they were actually brothers!
Here’s my thoughts:
Okay, there’s no way anyone could’ve called Wilf being the the reason for the Doctor’s death.
I loved the Doctor’s comment about the Master being bone dead stupid.
The Timelords made The Master insane. And Tim Dalton was murderously insane at the end of the Time War?
What is a White Point Star other than being native to Gallifrey?
Loved the allusion to the original Star Wars movie with Wilf and male Cactus guy in the gun turrets.
Who is the woman that met up with Wilf on the space ship and was with the Time Lords when they first showed up on Earth.
Anyone notice that Dalton mentioned “weeping angels” and the two covered face Time Lords were in the same pose AS the weeping angels from Blink?
If they ever bring back The Master on the show, I hope they recast because the incredible overacting by John Simm this time around kind of ruined him for me in the role.
The dialogue heavy scenes between Wilf and the Doctor were fantastic once again.
I like how they explained a bit about why the Doctor ended the Time War like he did. I’d say with his whole race going batcrap crazy would be a good reason to lock them away.
What was the defense mechanism that the Doctor left as a part of Donna?
The final goodbyes were well done, but I wonder if any of them save perhaps Sarah Jane knew it was the last glimpse of THIS Doctor.
It did seem a bit of a stretch that he would have so much time to go jaunting around after absorbing that 500,000 rads.
Donna’s marriage and the Doctor giving her what will turn out to be a winning lottery ticket through Wilf and her mom was nice.
The Mos Eisley cantina scene with Captain Jack and Alonso from the Titantic XMas special was weird as hëll. But it did give them a chance to work pretty much every character that’s been featured in the show the last four years.
Mickey and Martha freelance agents saving the world? Where the hëll did that come from not too mention their marriage.
The visit to Sarah Jane and saving Luke was good. The wave to Sarah and her facial expression gave me the impression that she knew this was goodbye.
The scene with Rose (and Jackie) couldn’t be more than it was I guess but I would’ve like to see more somehow.
The best wrap up scene to me was the Doctor at the book signing…that was just priceless.
And much like the Doctor’s last line…I don’t want David Tennant to go.
Loved the allusion to the original Star Wars movie with Wilf and male Cactus guy in the gun turrets.
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After Wilf took out his target, I honestly expected the cactus guy to blurt “Don’t get cocky, old man!” 🙂
That’s what Star Wars based their turrets off of, after all.
I greatly enjoyed Part II, especially The Doctor’s “reward.” I thought that was a nod toward the finale for Tom Baker and Peter Davison, where, as they’re about to regenerate, we see flashes of their companions over the years.
Speaking of Davison, it was only last year when, after thinking it was a full episode of “Doctor Who,” that “Time Crash” was actually a vignette for a children’s charity. For those who’ve never seen it before (and maybe didn’t know it existed), here’s a link:
Finally, speaking of Companions, I think it might be nice to see The Doctor encounter the children (grandchildren?) of Ian and Barbara.
One other thing, Bernard Cribbins was great. He was originally only going to be in that one Christmas special, but stepped into a much bigger role when another actor died. So after being cast for a small comedic role, he did a great job throughout the fourth season as Donna’s grandfather, showing a great depth of character. Then in this special, he became a full companion, doing all the action of companions a quarter his age (seriously, he’s 81 and manned a gun turret!) while being sweet and courageous.
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It’s almost a reversal of the original formula, where the Doctor started out being old traveling with someone very young. It’s surprising how natural it felt, which I think mainly comes down to Bernard Cribbins doing such a great job.
Well, since Bernard Cribbins was up against Tom Baker for the role of the 4th Doctor, he wouldn’t have been considered for the role if he hadn’t been quite a talented actor.
There’s a basis for some interesting alternate universe fanfiction, set in one where a Cribbins-appearing man appeared on the floor at UNIT HQ in Jon Pertwee’s place instead of Tom Baker.
Well, to be blunt, I felt Part 1 was complete šhìŧ. Part 2 was much better, but then, that wasn’t much of a challenge after Part 1.
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Too many planet-sized plot holes which is far too typical of RTD’s writing and too much silliness, which is also far too typical of RTD’s writing. Honestly, RTD should’ve never been allowed to write a season finale, as all of them are pretty much overwrought piles of crap. Why? Because he felt he had to make them bigger and bigger, and the result is greater ridiculous concept after greater ridiculous concept.
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RTD at his best is when he writes characters, and that is reflected in this two-parter. The restaurant scene in Part 1, much more of that kind of stuff in Part 2… that’s where RTD shines.
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Everything else? Well, it’s just become bad homage after bad homage, with it being blatant Star Wars ripoffs in this story. Or it’s terrible concepts, such as Super Villain Master or, going back a few specials, the Mecha-Cyberman in “The Next Doctor”.
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Alas, even the regeneration I felt lost most of it’s emotional impact by the fact that it just took too dámņ long to get there. Yes, I enjoyed the sequences where he visited everybody. But it became a case of “Ok, he’s going to regeneration now… no he isn’t”. And then it’s topped off with *another* bit of over the top silliness with the regeneration ruining the TARDIS interior. It wasn’t necessary in the least, but completely RTD.
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So, at this point, I’m sad to see Tennant go, but not RTD.
Seconded.
I’ve defended RTD to the hilt on numerous occasions against a veritable army of haters back here in Britain (I don’t think many of my friends quite grasp that without him there’d probably be no Dr Who Reboot at all, or it wouldn’t have lasted nearly this long).
However, IMO Steven Moffat has been responsible for nearly all the best bits of the new Dr Who and I’m realy excited about him taking over. Once I got used to David Tennant though (Chris Eccleston was a tough act to follow, again IMO of course) I think has been consistantly great, so I’m sorry to see him leave. Still, Steven Moffat deserves a new Doctor to make his own, and Matt Smith looks like he’ll be fun.
Let me get this straight, Mr. Davies:
Tom Baker falls two hundred feet from a radio telescope onto soft grass and has to regenerate into Peter Davison, but David Tennant falls TWICE that distance from an alien spaceship onto a hard marble floor, and all HE gets is a few scratches and a slightly scruffed-up jacket?
Good Lord, the new Doctor looks like Eric Stoltz in “Mask”.
I think he looks like a perfect combination of Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant. In other news, I wonder if WHOVIANS are always going to disregard Peter Cushings two turns as the Doctor, or if he’s ever going to be acknowledged. Cushing played the Doctor in two films, and the eighth Doctor was only in a TV movie, but he gets far more recognition. I guess Cushing’s take, which referenced him as a human grandfather, isn’t canonical.
Basically, yeah, it’s the canon thing. They have to count the Eighth Doctor just to correctly count which regeneration we’re on. Peter Cushing isn’t even the George Lazenby of Doctor Whos, he’s the Peter Sellers.
Cushing played the Doctor in two films, and the eighth Doctor was only in a TV movie
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In the Cushing films, the character was actually named Dr. Who… he wasn’t even an alien. And they were made simply to cash in on the Daleks.
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The Fox TV movie, on the other hand, is in continuity. 🙂
While the BBC maintains copyright/ownership of the Peter Cushing movies for legal reasons, they have only ever considered the actual TV series as canon.
So that lets the audio dramas, the stage productions, the charity specials before 2005, and the books out of continuity except for the adaptations of previous episodes, the reference material, and the possible exception of “The Story of Martha”, which covered the year long sojourn of the character between “The Sound of Drums” and “The Last of the Time Lords”.
I was a little disappointed that, cosmetic changes aside, the Tenth Doctor’s cause of death was the same as the Third Doctor’s (both succumbed to radiation poisoning).
On the other hand, Bernard Cribbins was terrific (not bad for someone who’s always been known primarily as a comedian).
As for the identity of “The Woman” … any chance she could be the one character that has never been mentioned in the series’ history … The Doctor’s daughter? Not the ‘new’ one from last season, but his original daughter – the one who blessed him with Susan?
To quote another esteemed time traveling doctor–Emmett Brown–you’re not thinking fourth dimensionally. How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan? Who’s to say that she didn’t give birth to Susan and then run into the Hartnell Doctor during one of his travels?
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How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan?
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The Doctor was completely surprised when he met Jenny (last season’s daughter). The only way Jenny could be Susan’s mother is if Susan came to Hartnell’s Doctor and introduced herself as his granddaughter, but didn’t tell him anything about her mother. It wouldn’t be a case of her trying not to spoil his future because just introducing herself to him does that. It’s possible, but that would be very convoluted.
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Besides, the Doctor said a few seasons ago that he used to be a father, so he had children before Jenny. It would be a huge stretch to say that the kids he knew about were not the parents of the granddaughter he knew about. Especially since he would have noticed that his children didn’t have any kids before they died. After that he would have assumed that something like Jenny was coming, but he obviously didn’t assume that because he was surprised when he saw her.
“How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan? Who’s to say that she didn’t give birth to Susan and then run into the Hartnell Doctor during one of his travels?”
’cause Tennant’s Doctor wouldn’t have casually mentioned (mentioned casually?) to Rose that “I was a Dad once” – before the “Doctor’s Daughter” episode – establishing that his daughter already existed.
Not to go all fanboy-geeky on ya, but I’ve always assumed Time lords (including the Shobogans and non-TL Gallifreyans) were locked into some sort of Gallifreyan Mean Time (i.e. everything moves forward from the creation of the Time Lords). That explains why all The Doctor’s meetings with The Master (as well as his journeys home) have been chronologically consecutive, and why he couldn’t go back and prevent the Time War – which, in ‘School Reunion’, he desperately wanted to do. (am I making any sense?). If that were the case, the woman generated from the Tenth Doctor couldn’t meet any other versions of him except the 11th, 12th and 13th.
On the other hand, Steven Moffat sems to really know his way around time-travel tales, so you may onto something after all.
(Please forgive all typos)
Rule One: One must *never* cross one’s own timeline–except for cheap tricks.
The Doctor was completely surprised when he met Jenny (last season’s daughter). The only way Jenny could be Susan’s mother is if Susan came to Hartnell’s Doctor and introduced herself as his granddaughter, but didn’t tell him anything about her mother.
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Not necessarily. Jenny could have met the Hartnell Doctor but looked completely different. And I can easily see him not wanting to know anything about where she came from.
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Sure, I know it’s convoluted, but what about the Doctor isn’t?
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PAD
’cause Tennant’s Doctor wouldn’t have casually mentioned (mentioned casually?) to Rose that “I was a Dad once” – before the “Doctor’s Daughter” episode – establishing that his daughter already existed.
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Yes, but he never went into detail about it; perhaps the reason he didn’t was because, until he actually encountered her, he didn’t KNOW the details about it. And saying, “I’m going to be a dad at some point in the past” is way too tortured syntax, even for him.
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PAD
Not necessarily. Jenny could have met the Hartnell Doctor but looked completely different. And I can easily see him not wanting to know anything about where she came from.
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With the single exception of when the Master turned himself into a human, Time Lords have always been able to recognize each other even when they looked different.
Radiation like Pertwee, yet curiously survived as fall that rivaled the Fall that killed Tom Baker’s Doctor. (I REALLY thought that was going to be a major factor in the demise of Tennant’s doctor).
Well who’s to say the fall didn’t mess up his body so much it made him more susceptible to the later radiation? Maybe it was the first chink in the armor…
Some little nod to the concept of a parachute would have been nice. It’s a space ship, it should have all kinds of alien tech. There was no space umbrella he could grab as he jumped out? No speed suppression boots? He couldn’t even use the sonic screwdriver to turn the glass roof into some kind of plastic net to slow his fall?
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I think space umbrella/parachute would have worked pretty well. No explanation necessary, he just grabs he as he’s jumping out, it expands enough to slow his fall, then it breaks before he gets there and we still get the scene of him crashing through the glass and hurting pretty badly in the landing. No real change, other than his survival being slightly less ridiculous.
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Of course, there’s always the chance that they had something like that planned, then ran out of money had to cut some of the effects. That kind of thing seems to happen a lot in TV sci-fi.
What got me is radiation killed him? Wasn’t there a story where the Dcotor got rad zapped but transfered the rad into his shoe and then tossed it away?
Yes. But for the life of me I can’t place it exactly.
Kath
Smith and Jones. Martha’s introduction.
As I understand it, it was a ‘particular kind’ of radiation that he could deal with, and certainly much less than what the nuclear vault contained. As it was he was still able to hop around for some unspoken farewells before he regenerated.
In the “Who was that woman i saw you with?” thread:
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I don’t think anyone’s mentioned River Song yet, either as the woman or as the potential mother of the Doctor’s grand-daughter.
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One hopes that something will be done, sometime, to pay off on all the implications of River Song and her knowledge of the Doctor and his history…
Alex Kingston appeared in the 2010 trailer. River song is returning(she was created by Moffet!)
I didn’t notice her in the trailer, but i was thinking of the fact that she was created by Moffat when i wrote that.
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One also assumes the Weeping Angels may be back…
The Angels are also in the trailer. 🙂
Right! I’d blanked on the trailer when i wrote that.
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Thanks for reminding me.
On top of another Dalek story, we’re also getting the return of another classic monster, as well.
To me, in the final 20 minutes, it was as if David Tennant’s Doctor was dying of Gallifreyan cancer of sorts – slowly, but surely; we have no idea how much time he had left in his final days, or what he did, or where he went (beyond what we were shown). Should make for some interesting novels or comics in the future. Also, waiting for him to finally regenerate seemed to me to be the video equvilent of waiting to experience explosive vomit after becoming aware that you’ve contracted a stomach bug — you don’t want to — but it’s GOT to happen in order to feel better. I cried when he regenerated, and so did my kids (a boy, 7, and a little girl, 11). My brother, his wife, and their kids all cried too (his sons are 8 and 11)…I rather enjoyed it, and am looking forward to seeing what Matt Smith will bring to the Tardis controls. GERONIMO!
We also shouldn’t assume that Susan is the offspring of the Doctor’s daughter. She could just as easily be his son‘s daughter.
Semi-related side-note:
I was just watching a first season rerun of Billie Piper’s “Secret Diary of a Call Girl” on Showtime. Her character, Hannah/Belle, picked up a guy working in a store she was shopping in and took him home. A guy played by Matt Smith.
So, Rose met the eleventh Doctor in 2007.
Actually, they were together before that – they were both in the 2006 “Masterpiece Theatre” segment The Ruby in the Smoke.
I liked the Doctor’s next-to-last words to Rose: “I bet you have a really great year.”
Here’s hoping that comes true for all of us.
Okay, I admit it, I cried.
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This episode and part I both highlighted something that has always bothered me about the idea of regeneration – that is, it’s a whole new person. While “The Doctor” still remains, *that* Doctor is gone, and lives only in the memory of whoever walks away afterwards.
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Speaking of plot holes – River Song recognized the Tennant Doctor, not the Matt Smith Doctor, and thought it was the one she knew.
I just figured she’d known the Doctor so long she could recognize him in any body. With the nature of the Doctor’s nonlinear body, she might have met him in several different forms and just assumed that Tennent was a new one.
…or, perhaps, that Little Blue Book has his entire bio in it, from whenever she’s going to know him…
No, first she recognized him, then she went looking through the little blue tardis book.
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Which reminds me, whoever the props people are on this show, they do an awesome job. I loved how the little blue book looked like the Tardis. I loved the diary they made for the Doctor when he turned himself into a human, it was beautiful. The pocket watch, the sonic screwdriver, and many other details have been great. There are a lot of very talented people working behind the scenes in props and other departments.
Yeah, that still fits – what i meant was that he’s in there, because she wrote him in there, because, at some point in the future (his, her past) he describes all his regenerations to her.
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I was sort of mentally-shorthanding that.
If he had described all his past regenerations to her, then she would have known from the start that he was younger than she’d ever met him before. She didn’t know that, so that can’t be it.
“Speaking of plot holes – River Song recognized the Tennant Doctor, not the Matt Smith Doctor, and thought it was the one she knew.”
That was before Tennant decided to leave. As I understand it, Tennant would originally have been in the upcoming story that now features Smith.
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I’m guessing Steven Moffat had to do a pretty nifty (if not hefty) revision to his sequel/prequel – River had already described The Doctor (paraphrasing) as “not quite yet the person” she was familiar with (even though she knew him on sight), and, when tennant decided to go, it probably would’ve flowed better if Moffat had stayed with his original intent of hiring an older actor for his Doctor. But then Smith had to come in and blow him away with his audition …
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I have every confidence that Moffat will be able to pull it off, but I’ll miss the never-to-be second (for Dr 10) yet first (for River) encounter.
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Man, it’s hard to write about time-travel and have it make sense!
Earl, where did you read about Moffat’s intent to get an older Doctor?
Did anybody watch/TiVo “Demons” Saturday night? It had a preview of the upcoming season of Doctor Who, with lots of snippets, plenty of Matt Smith crying out “Geronimo!”. Demons itself was kinda fun.
It looked like some British writers said, “Hey, let’s make our own Buffy the Vampire Slayer! But different!” Seriously, the teenage hero’s mentor is a 40-something man from across the Atlantic named Rupert.
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Other than that, I mainly thought it was borderline. The teenage hero is okay, but not that interesting yet. The mentor is terrible, he has no facial expression and is written like an American who desperately wants to be English, which just seems desperate. It’s not horrible, but so far it doesn’t seem to add much to a fairly generic formula.
I agree with your assessment. I’m not surprised it only lasted 6 episodes before getting the axe. I never watched Buffy, so like I said, it was kinda fun. I mostly enjoyed the Doctor Who preview, which was my main point.
Why yes, I believe that is the one they showed on the BBCA during Demons.
A mess. Some great moments with Tennant and Cribbins, and certainly suspenseful at some points, but the plot was all over the place, and I cannot stand the crazy Master (Simm does much better at those moments when the Master isn’t cackling), and I hate seeing the Time Lords made mad and corrupt. And Donna is still a painful farce, the best companion since Sarah Jane laid low and left a joke.
While we wouldn’t be here with RTD, by this point he brings very little to the table. I can’t say I’ll miss his presence.
Tennant, however, is on the short list with Tom Baker and Peter Davison. He did so much with weak scripts, moments of histrionics, and Michelle Ryan. And when he had a good script, or Catherine Tate, he was brilliant. Matt Smith has some massive shoes to fill.
I loved it.
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As for the mystery woman, I caught that it might be his mother toward the end, but up to that point I assumed it was the White Guardian. But, of course, there is nothing saying that it can’t be both. Or, neither.
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I think that the Time Lady who was killed by Rassilon at the debate table was Romana. As a former President, she would be at the table. And, as a former Companion, she would have the compassion to put forth such an idea.
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I did have a crazy thought that the other Weeping Angel looked like he was wearing an old Tom Baker wig. (I read somewhere, years ago, that Tom Baker wore a wig in exactly his own hairstyle in his first season because when he saw it in the prop room it made him laugh.)
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I really enjoyed the Reward. I liked how Tennant’s death was a combination of Pertwee (radiation poisoning), Baker’s (a fall caused while trying to stop the Master), and Davidson’s (sacrificing himself to save his companion, which, now that I think of it also applies to Eccleson’s.) I don’t think that it was overly drawn out. A human can survive for up to 36 hours (Cecil Kelly, 1958) after taking around 15,000 rem. So, I don’t think that giving The Doctor 20 minutes or so of looking in on some of his past loves is unreasonable.
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I’m not understanding all of the anti-RTD talk (and, not just here, but elsewhere.) No, he didn’t hold our hands and say “this is how the Doctor survived the fall,” or “this is who the woman is.” But, really, he shouldn’t have to. Dr Who has always been a children’s show written for adults. Kids don’t ask those sorts of questions. And, adults are capable of answering them ourselves.
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For example, someone above said that the Doctor fell 400 feet. I don’t know where they got that figure. What I saw was that the Doctor hit a sharp up-turn to cancel his forward momentum and direct it upwards. He then jumped an indeterminate distance (possibly less than 50 feet), allowing that upward momentum to slow his fall. Add to that the fact that he crashed through the skylight (and we know, either from other movies or from MythBusters, that crashing through something reduces damage in a fall) and I have no problem believing that he would be hurt, but not mortally so. And, IMHO, RTD didn’t have to spell that out because doing so would have hurt the drama of the scene.
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I also have to say that even knowing that “Four Knocks” referring to the Master’s drum beat was too obvious, and knowing that the Doctor’s deaths usually happen outside of the action sequences, I was still caught completely off guard by what really should have been obvious. I mean, really, I thought the Doctor would go down fighting? How often does he really get to do that? No, the Doctor more often gets quiet deaths that he could have avoided if he wasn’t so heroic.
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Theno
“Earl, where did you read about Moffat’s intent to get an older Doctor?”
It was online somewhere (possibly gallifreynewsbase, or one of the news outlets they link to). It was right after Smith had been announced. Moffat was quoted as saying he had been looking for someone older, but was so impressed with young Smith’s ability to seem both very young and very old at the same time that he knew he had his new Doctor.
FOUND IT! (sort of):
I couldn’t track down the original Moffat interview, but it figures into a recent ‘Times Online’ article:
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The relevant paragraph:
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-During casting, Moffat said he felt “there were too many young people on the list” and hoped to find someone in their thirties or forties — “and of course we ended up casting a 26-year-old”. Smith is the youngest actor to be cast in the role. Born in Northampton, Smith has cut a dash on the London stage and in the television drama Party Animals, and Moffat praised his “dynamism” and “swagger”.-
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The entire article: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6973483.ece
Okay, that doesn’t sound like it’ll have any affect on his plans. Even if Moffat gotten someone in his 30s, he still would have been noticeably younger than the actress playing River Song. Considering the conversation River had with the Doctor where he said he was old, we’re already having to throw chronological age of the actor out the window.
in ‘Dr Who Confidential’ – an extra bit we get on British telly (which you might get in the states or on the DVD’s – I really don’t know) Moffat actually stated to an off-camera interviewer that he initially felt only an older man could possess the necessary gravitas of the Doctor – a man with presence, authority etc.
Matt Smith was the first actor to audition and apparently blew him away. Moffat continued to audition other (presumably more senior) actors, but ultimately came to the decision that Matt was the best man for the job and that his initial feeling had been proven wrong.
This is all paraphrased btw – I don’t actually have it in front of me to reference. You might find it on youtube I guess.
Only from Christopher Eccleston’s episodes. I’ve had to catch the others on YouTube. not many though, as the BBC is rather draconian about what appears outside the UK.
Speaking of YouTube, I was looking for Don’t Turn Out Like Your Mother to play for my recently-engaged friend at work, and someone with an edit suite did this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOD7IZNYDs
I’m just sorry I didn’t do it first.
I have the impression that we didn´t saw Mr. Tennant goodbye as the doctor, but rather Mr. Russel T. Davies as head of the proyect.
is not that Tennant wont be missed, but the whole melodramatic farewell to his friends it´s a father-like goodbye to his creation.
I don´t think that this last contribution was at the level of his carrer as Dr. Who writer. But I really think that he deserve to do wathever he wanted, due to the very fine show that he run the last 5 years!
Overall, I liked it; and I liked the revelation that the knocking four times wasn’t a reference to the drumbeat the Master hears in his head, but that the knocks came from Wilf.
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By the way, for those who don’t know, Bernard Cribbins has a previous association with Doctor Who. He appeared as a companion to Peter Cushing’s Doctor in Daleks Invasion Earth: 2150 A.D.. For those who own Peter Haining’s book Doctor Who: 25 Glorious Years, there’s a photo with Cribbins and Cushing on page 99 (I always found it curious that nowhere on the season 4 DVDs (at least those sold in North America) did anyone mention Cribbins’ previous history with Doctor Who. But then no one mentioned Georgia Moffett’s connection, either).
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Anyway, back to “The End of Time.” I agree with Jason M. Bryant that the Doctor wasn’t screaming at Wilf so much as he was screaming at himself, as he realized that his actions in “The Waters of Mars” were taking him down a dark road. In fact, I wrote recently that perhaps a key in-story reason why the 11th Doctor decides to travel with a companion again is because, as Donna said in “The Runaway Bride”, the Doctor sometimes needs someone to stop him. Perhaps the Doctor, even with his new personality, will recognize that he could one day again find himself embracing an “I can do anything I want because I’m the last of the Timelords” mentality (or one of the two last, if the Master’s still alive), and giving in to the temptation to play the God of Time. And so decides he needs someone to keep him grounded.
Of course the TV show reason why the Doctor needs a companion is because he can’t go around talking to himself all the time.
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Yes, the radiation overdose was similar to the Pertwee Doctor’s end, but I didn’t mind that so much. As to the Doctor’s fall, I don’t recall, but didn’t he jump when the spaceship swooped down until it was almost right above the building? If so, his surviving the fall might be more believable than if he’d jumped when the ship was higher in the sky.
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Though I suppose it’s possible he’d borrowed one of Rick Jones’ parachutes, only this one happened to be invisible.
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The 10th Doctor’s end was similar to the Third Doctor’s in another way, too. Both had to face their fear. In the Third Doctor’s case, it was returning the Metebelis crystal to the cave of the giant spider, even knowing the danger (radiation and otherwise). For the 10th Doctor, it meant sacrificing that particular life, even though he still had so much more he could do.
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The irony, of course, is that if he’d run out on Wilf, he’d have tripped over a brick and regenerated anyway.
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I liked how the Doctor described regeneration as a form of death. Yes, The Doctor will live on, but as a new person. That which makes the 10th Doctor a unique individual will be gone. The 11th will remember everything, but filtered through a different personality with different thoughts and attitudes.
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Myself, if I were writing that scene, I’d have been tempted to have the Doctor comment upon past incarnations from a (relatively) objective standpoint: “and for a time, I had this thing for question marks. Wore them on collars, and even a pullover. At least the scarf had some practical uses.”
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And then he’d get back on track with “but anyway”, or something similar, since the 10th Doctor has been known to wander off topic. And, of course, meandering a bit would be understandable, given the subject matter.
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Myself, I’d have preferred if only one Doctor had gone with the question mark motif. It could have been an affectation of that particular incarnation, who figures it this way: “I never tell people my real name, just a title; and I sometimes tend to leave once the crisis is over before anyone can ask questions. Might as well play up the man of mystery bit.” Oh well. Too bad it wasn’t done that way.
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By the way, has it ever been established within the fictional Doctor Who universe whether the circumstances of a regeneration affect what the next Doctor (or any Timelord) will look like? Obviously, with regard to the TV series, the 11th Doctor looks the way he does because Matt Smith was cast in the part; but within the fictional universe, would the 11th Doctor have looked the same if the 10th Doctor had gone through a full regeneration in “The Stolen Earth”?
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But anyway… I didn’t mind the Doctor seeing his friends one last time, though it might’ve been better if we’d gotten a sense that he was racing the clock. He didn’t show any signs of pain until after he’d seen Rose and was struggling to get back to the TARDIS. That’s not to say he should’ve been doubled over in agony all the time, but even something as subtle as a brief twinge of pain when he rescued Luke would’ve served as a visual reminder that the Doctor was living on borrowed time. Or maybe a twinge of pain as the started to step into the TARDIS after waving to Sarah Jane, with a look in her eyes telling us she knew regeneration was imminent.
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I liked the scene with Joan Redfern’s granddaughter. But did I hear right? After the Doctor asked whether Joan was happy, did the granddaughter ask, “were you?” If so, does that mean she somehow knew (or guessed) who he was?
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The reference to Queen Elizabeth I near the start of part 1 was kind of cute. I assume that was put there in part to give us some hint as to why the Doctor had earned her enmity in “The Shakespeare Code”, a way to tie up that loose thread.
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Yogzilla, when I saw the gauntlet Timothy Dalton was wearing, I immediately thought of the Hand of Omega (see the episode “Remembrance of the Daleks”). I didn’t consider that Dalton might be portraying Rassilon. I assumed he was a more recent president, one chosen some time after the Doctor’s own (albeit absent) tenure in the office.
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Jonathan, as to the possibility that Wilf might’ve been a Timelord in hiding/amnesiac, I had a similar thought when the Doctor asked him why they seemed to have this connection. For a brief moment I wondered if he might have been a future incarnation of the Doctor who’d used a chameleon arch for some reason or other. No idea why that thought came to me, except that it would’ve been an unexpected reveal. Though it still wouldn’t have fully explained why they kept crossing paths.
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As to Matt Smith’s Doctor, I’m looking forward to seeing how he’ll play the part. You can’t always judge by a Doctor’s immediate behavior post-regeneration, so I’m not drawing any definite conclusions from his brief scene in “The End of Time”. And here’s a bit of irony.The same morning that I saw Matt Smith’s new scenes (and knowing nothing about how he’d portray the Doctor), I just happened to be thinking about the phrase “Geronimo.”
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Finally, some questions: In the initial run of the series (I agree with Doctor Who Magazine’s contention that it’s all one series, just with a really long hiatus), every new Doctor except Pertwee carried over a companion or companions from his previous incarnation (most of whom actually witnessed the regeneration). Is such a thing necessary anymore? Should a companion have witnessed the 10th Doctor’s regeneration into the 11th; and when the time comes should a companion witness the 11th Doctor becoming the 12th? One thing I’ve always liked about Doctor Who, and one thing I believe helps account for its long run, is the changing dynamic as new companions and Doctors are introduced from time to time. Since, for the most part, we’re down to one companion at a time, wouldn’t it make for some interesting character dynamics if companions overlapped each other and/or overlapped Doctors? Or to give another example, consider M*A*S*H. Hawkeye and Trapper (and later Hawkeye and B.J.) had an ongoing antagonistic relationship with Frank, but when Frank left and Charles came in, the relationships changed, subtly. For the most part, it was still Hawkeye and B.J. on one side and Charles on the other, but there were instances (akin to the shifting dynamics of sibling rivalry) where either Hawkeye or B.J. would side with Charles against the other. That’s not to say that companions should argue with each other and/or with the Doctor (obviously they’re not in a near-to-the-battlefield hospital situation), but I liked that the dynamic was shaken up from time to time.
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Of course I don’t expect the issue of a companion reacting to a new Doctor to come up for some time. Unless a previous companion made a return appearance. I still want to see Ian Chesterton meet a post-Hartnell Doctor). The Doctor, even after all these regenerations, would still call him “Checkerton.”
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Rick
Companions overlapping Doctors: I think not having a companion overlap this time was just because of his lack of a companion at all, which served a greater purpose. When I look at Russel T. Davies run as a whole, I think he was exploring what the companions really mean to the Doctor. He started out giving the Doctor a companion who he felt closer to than any before her. Then he had the rebound companion who didn’t connect with him as much as she wanted to, then the buddy. Finally the Doctor spent some time alone and we found out just how badly things can go when he doesn’t have someone.
So I’d expect companions to be around for regenerations in the future, but maybe not as a set rule. It’s probably going to depend on how much the fans and writers like the current companion when the Doctor dies.
When I look at Russel T. Davies run as a whole, I think he was exploring what the companions really mean to the Doctor. He started out giving the Doctor a companion who he felt closer to than any before her. Then he had the rebound companion who didn’t connect with him as much as she wanted to, then the buddy. Finally the Doctor spent some time alone and we found out just how badly things can go when he doesn’t have someone.
I think that’s about as succinct breakdown of what RTD was probably trying to do as can be found. inter-personal relationships is something he’s focused on in previous programmes he’s written for, so I guess it’s no suprise the companion dymanic is what he would zone in on.
But then no one mentioned Georgia Moffett’s connection, either
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Or David Troughton’s, for that matter. I can understand if he doesn’t want it brought up that he’s Patrick Troughton’s son when they’re doing the Confidentials, but he too played roles in the original series.
He didn’t?
Rick:
You were right about the question Redfern’s granddaughter asked the Doctor, although it wasn’t spoken very loudly.
However he never gave a verbal response in return.
That non-reply by the Doctor spoke volumes. It affected me as much as his last words and some of his exchanges with Wilf.
Myself, if I were writing that scene, I’d have been tempted to have the Doctor comment upon past incarnations from a (relatively) objective standpoint: “and for a time, I had this thing for question marks. Wore them on collars, and even a pullover. At least the scarf had some practical uses.”
They did something like that in the short, “Timecrash” (for the “Children in Need” telethon, when the Tenth Doctor and the Fifth Doctor run into each other…), anf Ten twits Five about his outfit…
By the way, has it ever been established within the fictional Doctor Who universe whether the circumstances of a regeneration affect what the next Doctor (or any Timelord) will look like?
Don’t know about that, but (at least in the novelisation; haven’t seen the episodes) the Second Doctor’s regeneration was forced by the Timelords when they caught up with him (remember, he stole the TARDIS) … and they chose a form that particularly annoyed him. (The Second and Third Doctors despised each other; they were literally almost complete opposites – one short, dark and scruffy, the other tall, white-haired and elegant.)
I liked the scene with Joan Redfern’s granddaughter. But did I hear right? After the Doctor asked whether Joan was happy, did the granddaughter ask, “were you?” If so, does that mean she somehow knew (or guessed) who he was?
Given that she dd a take when he said to autograph the book to “The Doctor”, i’d say so,
Been thinking about the Peter Cushing WHO movies; someone should write a novel where it turns out that Cushing’s Who actually IS one of the Doctor’s regenerations – only he’s forgotten he’s a Timelord, a’la the stopwatch contrivance from “Family of Blood,” etc. I’d read it.
Bud:
If the BBC EVER decides to fold the Peter Cushing movies into their officially recognized continuity, the best way to do it would be to establish them as adventures of the First Doctor William Hartnell before the series started with “An Unearthly Child” back in 1963.
I’m not very familiar with pre-revival Who, but I was under the impression that the reason Cushing’s Doctor was not part of the official canon is because the films were essentially adaptations of stories from the TV serials. What would be the point of basically declaring that the Doctor went through roughly the same events in different incarnations?
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Chuck
Just for the fun of it. Shoot, I even enjoyed the “Curse of Fatal Death” incarnation/s of the Doctor/s. LOL
On the more serious side, though, for those who weren’t exposed to the show in the 60’s, but were able to see the films, it might have a nostalgic appeal to them.
It’s kind of a shame, really, that so much effort and expense went into making those two films (which I don’t think were all that similar to their television counterparts), only to see them relegated to the dustbin as it were.
Thought the story was “meh” and the plot logic all over the place, but there were some superb moments in there, mostly due to Messers Tennant and Cribbins, both of whom were brilliant. Was a bit unfortunate that there were clearly visible gaps in the glass between the door and frame of the radiation booth things, though.
As for the final words, I didn’t dislike them per say but was a bit unsure of the delivery (even if this did reflect the attitude of the audience). Would personally have liked to see No.10 man up a bit at the end and take the regeneration on the chin. RTD over-did the Mopey Doctor throught this story and Waters of Mars, IMO.
I’ve read commments here and elsewhere about the Time Lords being made into “villains.” However, haven’t they always been depicted as either overtly corrupt or simply pompous politicians (the latter are easily swayed to evil when the chips are down).
These are the same people who *killed* the 2nd Doctor, who tried to kill the 5th and 6th. They were consistent antagonists in the series.
definitely worth watching. my interpretation was that it was the doctors mother, because there were two woman(not just the one) behind Rasilon. I speculate that one was the Doctors and the other one was the Masters mother.
-Lono
Apparently RTD openly states that it’s supposed to be “the Doctor’s mum” in the newly revised edition of The Writer’s Tale.
Apparently RTD openly states that it’s supposed to be “the Doctor’s mum” in the newly revised edition of The Writer’s Tale.
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He can speculate all he wants. It wasn’t stated on screen, therefore, we don’t know who the woman is or intended to be.
It’s not really “speculation” – he baldly states his intention that it’s the Doctor’s mother, and that this will not be made explicit to basically drive the fans crazy. Yes, it’s not spelled out onscreen so it could later be said to be anyone, but personally I hope the new production team NEVER go back to it. Obsessing over pointless continuity minutiae like that was what helped derail the original iteration of the show.
He can’t have it both ways. He specifically brought the Paul McGann incarnation into canon; that Doctor said he was human on his mother’s side. Those were time lords, not humans.
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that Doctor said he was human on his mother’s side.
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Bah. Everybody knows that was said due to another regeneration having gone a bit wrong. 😉
I think the “half human Doctor” thing has been retconned away and hopefully quietly forgotten about – RTD, like most of fandom, seemed to hate the idea. Journey’s End also makes a pretty big song and dance about how the newly half human Meta-crisis Doctor is a totally unique event in time and space, etc.
I always, even the first time I saw it, took the Doctor’s claim that he was “half-human on his mother’s side” to be a flippant nonsensical remark meant to confuse the person he was talking to and get out of the conversation.
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It certainly wouldn’t have been the first time.
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Theno
This is also somewhat addressed in a deleted part of the EoT P.2 script discussed in the Writer’s Tale.
The Doctor has a deleted line that claims he (paraphrased) ‘…WAS briefly half-human for a few days back in 1999 but he got better’
What I heard was that a producer said Mystery Woman was the Doctor’s mom (excuse me, “mum”), but then RTD said something that contradicted that. I’d love to see a source, either way.
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As for the Doctor having a human mother, I again wish I hadn’t missed that TV movie. Is there any chance that Time Lords are similar to Omniman from the comic Invincible? So when a Time Lord mates with another species, the Time Lord DNA overwhelms the other DNA and the child is still 100% Time Lord?
In the updated Writer’s Tale (The Final Chapter), the book Davies penned with Benjamin Cook, Davies says his *intention* is that it is the Doctor’s mother though he left it deliberately vague on screen and so it’s not canonical.
Personally, being his ‘Mother’doesn’t make that proverbial lick of sense (just as Peter says) because I think using a character no-one’s really thought about in 40+ years, that wasn’t defined before and certainly remains uninvested in to some extent) makes much less sense than Romana which at least would have held some resonance to those who knew who she was. Leaving it vague also proves annoying as it’s one thing to be enignmatic, it’s another to build your resolution on such an ephermeral pillar of character and plot. If that makes sense.
Then again, Davies writes for Who and I write for magazines, so he gets the last word. 🙂
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Kind of anti-climatic. Loved tenant but just ehh.
I avoided spoilers but I’m glad I did. I wasn’t sure how they were going to resolve everything in 75 minutes, but they could have done it in an hour. The Doctor’s farewell was drawn out in a Return of the King sort of way, but understandable given Tennant’s popularity. Lots of little things for the fans. Lots of big things, including some homages to Star Wars, and nearly one to Wrath of Kahn. Some fun cameos toward the end, including a few I wasn’t expecting. I don’t fully get Martha and Mickey married. Wasn’t Martha engaged to someone else? The Doctor asking Nurse Joan’s granddaughter if she was happy got to me more than any other scene. We also got to see more of Matt Smith than expected. I thought we would get one line. Tennant’s final words echo the sentiments of lots of fans. The series (and the Tardis) are in good hands.
OK, one question, was that woman time lord who kept showing up supposed to be Susan?
The current speculation is that it might be Susan, Romana, Doctor-Donna, or The Doc’s Mum. One of the producers said that it was the Doctor’s Mum but that has been countered with Romana.
Well, at the wedding, when Wilf asked who she was, the Doctor looked toward Donna…
I liked what was apparently the creation of the Weeping Angels…
Romana was my second guess but I would think Susan would have had a more emotional connection. Sure there was romantic tension between the Doctor and Romana but there’s romantic tension between the Doctor and most of his companions, Susan would have a little more emotional bite I think.
Since they didn’t actually say, I suppose we’re all supposed to have our own interpretations. Given that they went from talking about Donna’s father to glancing over at her, my impression was that the Doctor was thinking of his daughter, Susan.
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Besides, I’m still betting on Romana coming back eventually. She was stuck in another dimension, so she could easily have skipped the Time War and avoided getting stuck on Galifrey.
My thoughts, when she appeared to Wilf again in the second part were: “Oh šhìŧ! Could she be Susan?” And I still think that’s the case.
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The Doctor looking toward Donna at the wedding could simply him be thinking: “There’s your granddaughter Wilf, and that was mine.”
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I did just hear a rumor that the TimeLords might show up again in the new season, if that’s the case then maybe they’ll answer the question then.
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And I gotta say that I loved the Doctor’s Reward. That whole sequence is the only time that I broke during the episode.
“There’s your granddaughter Wilf, and that was mine.”
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Granddaughter, thank you, I should have know I had it wrong when I wrote “daughter.”
I was thinking White Guardian.
Upon reflection, I think she was first cousin to the Cheese Guy from that episode of “Buffy.” You remember: The one who wandered through the dream episode saying things like, “I do not wear the cheese; the cheese wears me.” And Kath was trying to figure out what it meant, and she asked me, and I said, “It meant that Whedon felt like screwing with the fans.” And Joss eventually copped to that being the case. Same thing here: I think ultimately Davies put her in there as a plot device to be whatever the fans wanted her to be. Indeed, it was to his advantage: All the intense discussion about who she was distracts from fans wondering how the hëll she kept managing to do her vanishing act, how Wilf kept seeing her, etc. In short, you’re so busy trying to determine her identity that you don’t dwell on the fact that her presence doesn’t make a lick of sense.
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Sure, I’d wondered about how she got a message through, especially after they made such a big deal about getting just the simplest message through to the Master required driving him mad.
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You’re probably right that the mystery of who she is helped distract us how she did that. On the other hand, just the reveal that she knew the Doctor was probably enough to do that. If he had said it was Romana, we’d all be discussing why she looked so old, how she got out of E-Space, and whether she really became president of Gallifrey as Russel T. Davies said (I only found that out today on wikipedia). If the Doctor had said the woman was Susan, we’d all be discussing where she’d been all these years, how she got back to Gallifrey, and if he’d see her again.
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To me, the mystery of who she is seems mainly like a way for them to say, “whoever you think she is, you might be right.”
I think the fact that in the Wilf-visions she was wearing white, and that all the time lords were wearing red, means that the projections or visions she was sending Wilf probably came from the “future” relative to the Doctor’s time frame. That, and the fact that she says she was “lost long ago”. I think it’s a bit similar to the situation in Blink, where she knew what had to happen because she was there at the time, so she sent the message back to the person who had to make it happen. I do think that it was supposed to be Susan – when the Doctor looked at Donna, I think that was the hint, so I agree with Raphael Sutton here. 🙂
When Wilf locked himself into the chamber there, I can’t help but think that even if he hadn’t done so, the Doctor would still have had to make the same decision, since another innocent human would have been trapped otherwise. The fact that it was Wilf just added the dramatic tension, but didn’t change what would have happened. The Doctor would still probably have saved whoever was trapped, since the mechanism of the machine was such that someone had to be in there regardless.
In short, you’re so busy trying to determine her identity that you don’t dwell on the fact that her presence doesn’t make a lick of sense.
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RTD has always performed such ‘tricks’ with his stories, and it’s one of the reasons I’m now glad that he’s moved on.
There’s also the fact that Rose did pretty much the same thing last season. Just like Mystery Time Lady, she appeared on TV screens, though the Doctor never managed to be looking in the right direction to see her. At this point, I’d say that this kind of thing just seems normal for Doctor Who.
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It also occurs to me that what Mystery Time Lady did was actually a lot different than what Rasalon did. His looks easier because he just sent four beats back in time to the Master’s head while she kept full communication going, but that wasn’t it. Rasalon was looking for a way to form a link that he could drag a *planet* through. She just wanted to chat. Once I think about it, I can believe that her trick was much easier than his, so I’m not so worried about whatever technobabble solution they’d come up with to explain it if they wanted to spend time on it.
I think (I hope) that Davies and Moffat were setting the background for the new season. They were tying things up with the old characters, and setting up a continuing mystery and nemesis with the mystery timelady and the timelords trying to escape in their last day. If Moffat wants to observe the history of Who, and he seems to, then I’m hoping he’s going to address of decades old mystery of The Doctor’s family, and that the mystery timelady will be his way of doing that. I would find a story about his wife, or offspring, much more interesting than a mother-son story, but … why did he cast the youngest Doctor ever? Do you want a 20 something portraying a grandfather, or a son? Hope its not disappointing.
I enjoyed it.
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I though it was a bit of a cheat having the big dilemma of whether to shoot the Master or Timothy Dalton, then just shooting a machine to get the same result. Shouldn’t he have thought of that a little sooner and saved all the drama?
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Other than that, I really liked it. I liked that it wasn’t the Master who killed him. Combined with what happened in The Waters of Mars, I liked that the Doctor had to do what he did *because* Wilfred “wasn’t important”. That’s a great detail about who the Doctor is and who he’s supposed to be.
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Plus, I loved the reveal of who Timothy Dalton was. Even more than the other scary stuff the Doctor listed off about the Time War, that made me feel like the Time Lords must have gotten desperate if they brought him back.
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The few seconds of the eleventh Doctor were comforting. I keep telling myself to trust in Steven Moffat, but it’s still odd having such a young Doctor. The few seconds we got of Matt Smith’s Doctor looked pretty good, like he had a fun feel for the character. Here’s hoping.
The thing that i loved about that “Which one shall I shoot?” sequence was the way that he apparently re-cocked the already-cocked revolver (judging by the sound effect) every time he changed his aim.
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During the first half, i was trying to figure out *why* anyone would design those twin control booths the way they were, but in the end i realised that they were a kind of Hero’s Steed.
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I liked that they thought of a semi-legitimate way to do a farewell scene with Rose without having to explain how that “unreachable alternate universe” was reachable again.
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Overall, it was a good swan song.
Plus, I loved the reveal of who Timothy Dalton was. Even more than the other scary stuff the Doctor listed off about the Time War, that made me feel like the Time Lords must have gotten desperate if they brought him back.
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I agree, but I have to ask: was there any hints/clues as to his identity before The Doctor called him by name? The guantlet, perhaps? (I’m not as up on my classic Who trivia as I wish I were)
No, there were no clues, Yogzilla. Dalton is listed in the credits of Part 1 as The Narrator (who happens to be Lord President). And I figured that was his name, much like we have The Doctor and The Master.
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To have him be Rassilon is something for the old series fans, I suppose. But, as an old series fan, I find it to be unnecessary and distracting.
His Wikipedia page doesn’t say anything about a gauntlet, but it does list several other “____ of Rassalon” items, like a Sash of Rassilon, a Key of Rassilon, etc. They’re all very powerful, so apparently he had a habit of making very powerful items and slapping his name on them. I suppose we can assume this one was called “The Gauntlet of Rassalon.”
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The wikipedia entry also discusses how the legends about him from past episodes of the show conflict a lot. He was a peaceful leader, or he was a tyrant. He invented time travel, or his partner did most of the work and he killed him. It works pretty well with the idea that the Time Lords became so desperate to win the war that they woke up their savior, only to find that they’d given power to a monster.
The whole second part was awesome. I really liked the first part, but the second part of End of Time was just brillant. Their best episode ever imo. Just loved it.
I especially liked the ending sequence with David’s Who and how they brought back all of his friends. Even Rose. Wasn’t expecting any of that and I thought it was great.
Oh and the new doctor: lol! ” I’ve had worse.” “What?! I’m girl! ” hehe. Very funny sequence. Amazing how the show can go from really sad (Tennant leaving) to very funny (Matt Smith entrance) that quick.
I am looking forward to Spring 2010. Still, I will miss Tennant.
DF2506
Don’t forget the “Still not a ginger” bit. Made me laugh out loud for a few minutes.
I never considered the woman could be Susan. Interesting. Probably better that they leave it open-ended. During Part One, I thought she may be the White Guardian.
I noticed that they said there were two objections. There’s the mysterious lady, but that leaves the question of who the other one was.
I actually got the impression that wild was a timelord in hiding/amnesiac and that there were hints he may have been the doctor’s father.
Meant to say “Wilf”
Well, they -did- say in the TV movie introducing the 8th Doctor that his father was a Timelord and his mother was human, so I don’t think the ‘objector’ was his mum.
One of the later Doctor Who novels (can’t remember which at the moment) discredits the Human Mother theoryas a ruse the Doctor pulled to throw the Master off his game during the 8th’s lone movie/episode.
But then again, since the BBC itself only considers the TV series as canonical…
When it comes to all his major finales, I find Davies to be hit-or-miss, and this one was largely a big miss. There’s excellent ideas there (an Earth full of Masters, the return of the Timelords, the Doctor with a gun) but I found the execution to be pretty weak, with Simms (I love him, but) never fully fitting into the role, the Timelords being terribly underwhelming despite The Dalton, and a promise of big things from Donna that is hastily written off. I just found it to be messy and uninspiring, especially in the wake of Davies’ work on the stunning TORCHWOOD: CHILDREN OF EARTH.
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Now, that’s not to say it was all bad. Bernard Cribbins was an absolute delight in his brief turn as a companion, and the final final final revelation of the “four knocks” was a punch to the gut. And, while it’s a little forced, I really enjoyed the last 15 minutes where Davies brought his characters and creatures back out for a curtain call, the bit with Jessica Hynes being especially moving.
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So, while the buildup didn’t work for me, the send off was superb and I’m definitely looking forward to where it goes from here … even though I wasn’t ready for him to leave, either.
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As for the mystery woman, when the Doctor looked at Donna, didn’t anyone else think that, instead of seeing a granddaughter, he was seeing a wife?
“…a promise of big things from Donna that is hastily written off.”
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Personally, i felt as if the only reason Donna got any more screen time than the others that we saw at the end was so that they could show her prominently in the trailers.
More because the two main characters were connected specifically through her. It would have been particularly weird to see her any less than we did!
She still has less screentime across the series than Rose or Martha. Bit of a weird coda for her though (after her previous ending, which had me tearing up).
The Mystery Woman’s identity for now will probably remain just that: a mystery.
But if there is a direct family tie to the Doctor, has it ever been “officially” established that he is an only child?
Instead of wife, maybe a sibling?
Then again, personally, I’m hoping she turns out to be either Susan or Romana myself.
I think that… it’s extremely obvious that Davies makes it up as he goes along, but I still enjoyed all the specials, and the finale, for the most part.
I was taken aback by how petty and childish the Doctor got when he realized he’d have to sacrifice himself to open the door. Between that and the end of Waters of Mars, I wish they’d explored that darkness in a more thought-out and fulfilling way. It felt kind of tacked-on for the specials.
I enjoyed the Doctor’s “reward”, but I was kind of hoping that they’d re-acknowledge that there’s another David Tennant out there in a parallel universe with Rose. I wanted the Doctor to merge with his human counterpart while Matt Smith was regenerating, allowing him to retire. Or maybe just pop in for a glimpse of the two in their old age. (yeah, I know the realities are sealed but they can technobabble that away)
Or something.
“Petty and childish” – perhaps.
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OTOH, this was the first time that i’d ever thought about what it meant to the current Doctor to begin regeneration – that it might, indeed, be a form of death.
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Yes, the new Doctor has all the memories, but he is a different person.
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Got to be a creepy feeling knowing it’s gonna happen…
I understand being upset and all of that… but he just completely berates Wilfred. He screams at him and tells him how unimportant and stupid he is. I don’t understand why the Doctor had to be such a dìçk.
Screaming about the unimportance of Wilfred was British irony.
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The Waters of Mars ended with the Doctor screwing up because he started deciding who was important enough to live and who was unimportant enough to die, a decision he had no right to make. The Time Lords just came close to wiping out the entirety of the universe because they thought their own survival was more important.
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The Doctor wasn’t really screaming at Wilf. He was screaming at himself for what he was on the road to becoming, what he knew he had to avoid. It was *because* Wilf was unimportant that he must be saved.
The Third Doctor in “Planet of the Spiders” was the same way: he had come to like himself and his existence, and didn’t want to suffer death of personality. There is continuity of memory with each regeneration, but Ten’s description of it as “a new bloke saunters off” is correct. Ten is dead, just all all the previous incarnations are.
Coming to Earth was the worst thing that the Doctor could ever have done from his own point of view. He lived hundreds of years in his first persona, but has suffered being “killed” every few years ever since arriving on Earth. Living on Earth and caring about Humans has been disastrous for him from a personal survival standpoint.
No, did not like the Wilf in the radiation chamber bit. It was contrived. The bitter Doctor was needlessly scornful of Wilf, who fought well much less for a pretty old guy, firing at the enemy in a breakneck aerial dogfight. My thought was, “Hey, Doctor, get off the cross, we could use the wood.”
Plus, Wilf is the same generation as my late father–no way he’d let a vigorous young person die the death, instead of himself as a codger. Emotionally, to Wilf, the Doctor is young.
Nonetheless, I did still love the Tennant’s Doctor throughout and at the end. In fact, it has an authentic feel that for the final few episodes, the Doctor was suffering greatly from grief, from loneliness, from a weariness of life that he couldn’t shake. PTSD and yes, he had “lived too long.”
In reality, old people often feel that way, like the last leaf on the tree. So kudos to the writers for showing us how it felt to be the battle fatigued Doctor. And in a light hearted episode, still reveal to us the aging Jackie, or Martha’s mom, lonely, waiting for a kind word from the beloved child, desperately worried for daughters gone AWOL
Yeah. Enough–I cried at the Doctor’s Reward, he was truly broken, and as always, a noble soul.
For those not familiar with Pab Sungenis’s strip The New Adventures of Queen Victoria, you might want to take a decko at today’s strip.
I seem to remember the Doctor saying one that there’s no point in being an adult if you can’t be childish sometimes.
I also get the feeling that perhaps Russell Davies allowed David to make up his own final words, as they certainly reflect his true feelings about leaving the role.
Tennant didn’t have an input to the script, but if you watch confidential he certainly had an input into which take was used . . .
Much talk about who “that woman” was. A note about who she literally was: Claire Bloom has worked with the likes of Charlie Chaplin an Laurence Olivier, and here she is doing DOCTOR WHO. What a career!
I just double checked this. We never see what happens to the Master. He’s throwing lightning bolts at Rasilon, Gallifrey disappears, and then the Doctor is lying on the floor alone with Wilf. That actually does a pretty good job of allowing the Master to go away for awhile, then come back regenerated in a new body to suit the new Doctor. No need to do another big returning from the dead sequence, he just walked away.
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Oh, and did anyone else think of the Highlander when Tennant regenerated? It’s cool that it’ll allow them a good reason to redecorate the Tardis for the new season, and I liked seeing the new Doctor literally laughing in the midst of danger after all that pathos, but it was still a little funny in how over the top it was.
The Master will be back whenever they feel like bringing him back. In the original series there was one episode where the Master was standing in fire or lava (it’s been decades since I saw it) and apparently burns up. When he turns up again someone says that they thought he died, the Master just says something like “Didn’t you know? I’m immortal” and no explanation is given. Just like the Daleks “all died” and keep showing up, the Master will reappear whenever the writers want him back on the show.
As for the episode, I thought it was pretty good. They skipped over the usual real-world consequences of the episode’s actions (millions would have died after the Master’s takeover — not to mention having a planet much larger than Earth popping up so close would’ve caused massive catastrophes to Earth), but the Doctor went out heroically. I think the Doctor’s “berating” Wilf before saving him was the Doctor half-heartedly trying to rationalize away what he knew he’d do anyway. And I liked Matt Smith in what I saw of him so far.
Actually, in Tom Baker’s final year they brought back a Crispy!Master who had to merge his essence with another being in order to regenerate. So I think they actually tied in that continuity nicely.
I think that was when they changed Masters – the original actor either was in too bad health or died and they played the Krispy Kritter Master a while and then brought in the new guy, who looked very much like the original.
I think that was when they changed Masters – the original actor either was in too bad health or died
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The original actor to play The Master, Roger Delgado, had been killed in a car accident not long after he had made what was already intended to be the character’s final appearance in Doctor Who.
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But of course, they had to bring The Master back. Two more actors would play The Master (for basically one story each) before the role was finally taken by Anthony Ainley throughout the 80’s.
Everyone here is thinking of “Planet of the Spiders”, what would have been the finale for both the Third Doctor (Jon Pertwee) and Roger Delgado, if he had not passed away before the adventure started filming.
Original script (supposedly) called for The Master to sacrafice himself in an attempt to save the Doctor, because (allegedly) they were actually brothers!
Here’s my thoughts:
Okay, there’s no way anyone could’ve called Wilf being the the reason for the Doctor’s death.
I loved the Doctor’s comment about the Master being bone dead stupid.
The Timelords made The Master insane. And Tim Dalton was murderously insane at the end of the Time War?
What is a White Point Star other than being native to Gallifrey?
Loved the allusion to the original Star Wars movie with Wilf and male Cactus guy in the gun turrets.
Who is the woman that met up with Wilf on the space ship and was with the Time Lords when they first showed up on Earth.
Anyone notice that Dalton mentioned “weeping angels” and the two covered face Time Lords were in the same pose AS the weeping angels from Blink?
If they ever bring back The Master on the show, I hope they recast because the incredible overacting by John Simm this time around kind of ruined him for me in the role.
The dialogue heavy scenes between Wilf and the Doctor were fantastic once again.
I like how they explained a bit about why the Doctor ended the Time War like he did. I’d say with his whole race going batcrap crazy would be a good reason to lock them away.
What was the defense mechanism that the Doctor left as a part of Donna?
The final goodbyes were well done, but I wonder if any of them save perhaps Sarah Jane knew it was the last glimpse of THIS Doctor.
It did seem a bit of a stretch that he would have so much time to go jaunting around after absorbing that 500,000 rads.
Donna’s marriage and the Doctor giving her what will turn out to be a winning lottery ticket through Wilf and her mom was nice.
The Mos Eisley cantina scene with Captain Jack and Alonso from the Titantic XMas special was weird as hëll. But it did give them a chance to work pretty much every character that’s been featured in the show the last four years.
Mickey and Martha freelance agents saving the world? Where the hëll did that come from not too mention their marriage.
The visit to Sarah Jane and saving Luke was good. The wave to Sarah and her facial expression gave me the impression that she knew this was goodbye.
The scene with Rose (and Jackie) couldn’t be more than it was I guess but I would’ve like to see more somehow.
The best wrap up scene to me was the Doctor at the book signing…that was just priceless.
And much like the Doctor’s last line…I don’t want David Tennant to go.
Loved the allusion to the original Star Wars movie with Wilf and male Cactus guy in the gun turrets.
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After Wilf took out his target, I honestly expected the cactus guy to blurt “Don’t get cocky, old man!” 🙂
I certainly could be that the turrets were a Star Wars reference, but what came to mind for me were WWII planes with turrets.
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http://www.footnote.com/thumbnail.php?image=48255131&width=400&height=400
That’s what Star Wars based their turrets off of, after all.
I greatly enjoyed Part II, especially The Doctor’s “reward.” I thought that was a nod toward the finale for Tom Baker and Peter Davison, where, as they’re about to regenerate, we see flashes of their companions over the years.
Speaking of Davison, it was only last year when, after thinking it was a full episode of “Doctor Who,” that “Time Crash” was actually a vignette for a children’s charity. For those who’ve never seen it before (and maybe didn’t know it existed), here’s a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsP0kQSQxmQ
Finally, speaking of Companions, I think it might be nice to see The Doctor encounter the children (grandchildren?) of Ian and Barbara.
One other thing, Bernard Cribbins was great. He was originally only going to be in that one Christmas special, but stepped into a much bigger role when another actor died. So after being cast for a small comedic role, he did a great job throughout the fourth season as Donna’s grandfather, showing a great depth of character. Then in this special, he became a full companion, doing all the action of companions a quarter his age (seriously, he’s 81 and manned a gun turret!) while being sweet and courageous.
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It’s almost a reversal of the original formula, where the Doctor started out being old traveling with someone very young. It’s surprising how natural it felt, which I think mainly comes down to Bernard Cribbins doing such a great job.
Well, since Bernard Cribbins was up against Tom Baker for the role of the 4th Doctor, he wouldn’t have been considered for the role if he hadn’t been quite a talented actor.
There’s a basis for some interesting alternate universe fanfiction, set in one where a Cribbins-appearing man appeared on the floor at UNIT HQ in Jon Pertwee’s place instead of Tom Baker.
Well, to be blunt, I felt Part 1 was complete šhìŧ. Part 2 was much better, but then, that wasn’t much of a challenge after Part 1.
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Too many planet-sized plot holes which is far too typical of RTD’s writing and too much silliness, which is also far too typical of RTD’s writing. Honestly, RTD should’ve never been allowed to write a season finale, as all of them are pretty much overwrought piles of crap. Why? Because he felt he had to make them bigger and bigger, and the result is greater ridiculous concept after greater ridiculous concept.
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RTD at his best is when he writes characters, and that is reflected in this two-parter. The restaurant scene in Part 1, much more of that kind of stuff in Part 2… that’s where RTD shines.
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Everything else? Well, it’s just become bad homage after bad homage, with it being blatant Star Wars ripoffs in this story. Or it’s terrible concepts, such as Super Villain Master or, going back a few specials, the Mecha-Cyberman in “The Next Doctor”.
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Alas, even the regeneration I felt lost most of it’s emotional impact by the fact that it just took too dámņ long to get there. Yes, I enjoyed the sequences where he visited everybody. But it became a case of “Ok, he’s going to regeneration now… no he isn’t”. And then it’s topped off with *another* bit of over the top silliness with the regeneration ruining the TARDIS interior. It wasn’t necessary in the least, but completely RTD.
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So, at this point, I’m sad to see Tennant go, but not RTD.
Seconded.
I’ve defended RTD to the hilt on numerous occasions against a veritable army of haters back here in Britain (I don’t think many of my friends quite grasp that without him there’d probably be no Dr Who Reboot at all, or it wouldn’t have lasted nearly this long).
However, IMO Steven Moffat has been responsible for nearly all the best bits of the new Dr Who and I’m realy excited about him taking over. Once I got used to David Tennant though (Chris Eccleston was a tough act to follow, again IMO of course) I think has been consistantly great, so I’m sorry to see him leave. Still, Steven Moffat deserves a new Doctor to make his own, and Matt Smith looks like he’ll be fun.
Let me get this straight, Mr. Davies:
Tom Baker falls two hundred feet from a radio telescope onto soft grass and has to regenerate into Peter Davison, but David Tennant falls TWICE that distance from an alien spaceship onto a hard marble floor, and all HE gets is a few scratches and a slightly scruffed-up jacket?
Good Lord, the new Doctor looks like Eric Stoltz in “Mask”.
I think he looks like a perfect combination of Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant. In other news, I wonder if WHOVIANS are always going to disregard Peter Cushings two turns as the Doctor, or if he’s ever going to be acknowledged. Cushing played the Doctor in two films, and the eighth Doctor was only in a TV movie, but he gets far more recognition. I guess Cushing’s take, which referenced him as a human grandfather, isn’t canonical.
Basically, yeah, it’s the canon thing. They have to count the Eighth Doctor just to correctly count which regeneration we’re on. Peter Cushing isn’t even the George Lazenby of Doctor Whos, he’s the Peter Sellers.
Cushing played the Doctor in two films, and the eighth Doctor was only in a TV movie
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In the Cushing films, the character was actually named Dr. Who… he wasn’t even an alien. And they were made simply to cash in on the Daleks.
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The Fox TV movie, on the other hand, is in continuity. 🙂
While the BBC maintains copyright/ownership of the Peter Cushing movies for legal reasons, they have only ever considered the actual TV series as canon.
So that lets the audio dramas, the stage productions, the charity specials before 2005, and the books out of continuity except for the adaptations of previous episodes, the reference material, and the possible exception of “The Story of Martha”, which covered the year long sojourn of the character between “The Sound of Drums” and “The Last of the Time Lords”.
I was a little disappointed that, cosmetic changes aside, the Tenth Doctor’s cause of death was the same as the Third Doctor’s (both succumbed to radiation poisoning).
On the other hand, Bernard Cribbins was terrific (not bad for someone who’s always been known primarily as a comedian).
As for the identity of “The Woman” … any chance she could be the one character that has never been mentioned in the series’ history … The Doctor’s daughter? Not the ‘new’ one from last season, but his original daughter – the one who blessed him with Susan?
To quote another esteemed time traveling doctor–Emmett Brown–you’re not thinking fourth dimensionally. How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan? Who’s to say that she didn’t give birth to Susan and then run into the Hartnell Doctor during one of his travels?
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How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan?
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The Doctor was completely surprised when he met Jenny (last season’s daughter). The only way Jenny could be Susan’s mother is if Susan came to Hartnell’s Doctor and introduced herself as his granddaughter, but didn’t tell him anything about her mother. It wouldn’t be a case of her trying not to spoil his future because just introducing herself to him does that. It’s possible, but that would be very convoluted.
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Besides, the Doctor said a few seasons ago that he used to be a father, so he had children before Jenny. It would be a huge stretch to say that the kids he knew about were not the parents of the granddaughter he knew about. Especially since he would have noticed that his children didn’t have any kids before they died. After that he would have assumed that something like Jenny was coming, but he obviously didn’t assume that because he was surprised when he saw her.
“How do we know that the one from last season ISN’T the one who blessed him with Susan? Who’s to say that she didn’t give birth to Susan and then run into the Hartnell Doctor during one of his travels?”
’cause Tennant’s Doctor wouldn’t have casually mentioned (mentioned casually?) to Rose that “I was a Dad once” – before the “Doctor’s Daughter” episode – establishing that his daughter already existed.
Not to go all fanboy-geeky on ya, but I’ve always assumed Time lords (including the Shobogans and non-TL Gallifreyans) were locked into some sort of Gallifreyan Mean Time (i.e. everything moves forward from the creation of the Time Lords). That explains why all The Doctor’s meetings with The Master (as well as his journeys home) have been chronologically consecutive, and why he couldn’t go back and prevent the Time War – which, in ‘School Reunion’, he desperately wanted to do. (am I making any sense?). If that were the case, the woman generated from the Tenth Doctor couldn’t meet any other versions of him except the 11th, 12th and 13th.
On the other hand, Steven Moffat sems to really know his way around time-travel tales, so you may onto something after all.
(Please forgive all typos)
Rule One: One must *never* cross one’s own timeline–except for cheap tricks.
The Doctor was completely surprised when he met Jenny (last season’s daughter). The only way Jenny could be Susan’s mother is if Susan came to Hartnell’s Doctor and introduced herself as his granddaughter, but didn’t tell him anything about her mother.
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Not necessarily. Jenny could have met the Hartnell Doctor but looked completely different. And I can easily see him not wanting to know anything about where she came from.
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Sure, I know it’s convoluted, but what about the Doctor isn’t?
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’cause Tennant’s Doctor wouldn’t have casually mentioned (mentioned casually?) to Rose that “I was a Dad once” – before the “Doctor’s Daughter” episode – establishing that his daughter already existed.
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Yes, but he never went into detail about it; perhaps the reason he didn’t was because, until he actually encountered her, he didn’t KNOW the details about it. And saying, “I’m going to be a dad at some point in the past” is way too tortured syntax, even for him.
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Not necessarily. Jenny could have met the Hartnell Doctor but looked completely different. And I can easily see him not wanting to know anything about where she came from.
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With the single exception of when the Master turned himself into a human, Time Lords have always been able to recognize each other even when they looked different.
Radiation like Pertwee, yet curiously survived as fall that rivaled the Fall that killed Tom Baker’s Doctor. (I REALLY thought that was going to be a major factor in the demise of Tennant’s doctor).
Well who’s to say the fall didn’t mess up his body so much it made him more susceptible to the later radiation? Maybe it was the first chink in the armor…
Some little nod to the concept of a parachute would have been nice. It’s a space ship, it should have all kinds of alien tech. There was no space umbrella he could grab as he jumped out? No speed suppression boots? He couldn’t even use the sonic screwdriver to turn the glass roof into some kind of plastic net to slow his fall?
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I think space umbrella/parachute would have worked pretty well. No explanation necessary, he just grabs he as he’s jumping out, it expands enough to slow his fall, then it breaks before he gets there and we still get the scene of him crashing through the glass and hurting pretty badly in the landing. No real change, other than his survival being slightly less ridiculous.
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Of course, there’s always the chance that they had something like that planned, then ran out of money had to cut some of the effects. That kind of thing seems to happen a lot in TV sci-fi.
What got me is radiation killed him? Wasn’t there a story where the Dcotor got rad zapped but transfered the rad into his shoe and then tossed it away?
Yes. But for the life of me I can’t place it exactly.
Kath
Smith and Jones. Martha’s introduction.
As I understand it, it was a ‘particular kind’ of radiation that he could deal with, and certainly much less than what the nuclear vault contained. As it was he was still able to hop around for some unspoken farewells before he regenerated.
In the “Who was that woman i saw you with?” thread:
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I don’t think anyone’s mentioned River Song yet, either as the woman or as the potential mother of the Doctor’s grand-daughter.
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One hopes that something will be done, sometime, to pay off on all the implications of River Song and her knowledge of the Doctor and his history…
Alex Kingston appeared in the 2010 trailer. River song is returning(she was created by Moffet!)
I didn’t notice her in the trailer, but i was thinking of the fact that she was created by Moffat when i wrote that.
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One also assumes the Weeping Angels may be back…
The Angels are also in the trailer. 🙂
Right! I’d blanked on the trailer when i wrote that.
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Thanks for reminding me.
On top of another Dalek story, we’re also getting the return of another classic monster, as well.
To me, in the final 20 minutes, it was as if David Tennant’s Doctor was dying of Gallifreyan cancer of sorts – slowly, but surely; we have no idea how much time he had left in his final days, or what he did, or where he went (beyond what we were shown). Should make for some interesting novels or comics in the future. Also, waiting for him to finally regenerate seemed to me to be the video equvilent of waiting to experience explosive vomit after becoming aware that you’ve contracted a stomach bug — you don’t want to — but it’s GOT to happen in order to feel better. I cried when he regenerated, and so did my kids (a boy, 7, and a little girl, 11). My brother, his wife, and their kids all cried too (his sons are 8 and 11)…I rather enjoyed it, and am looking forward to seeing what Matt Smith will bring to the Tardis controls. GERONIMO!
We also shouldn’t assume that Susan is the offspring of the Doctor’s daughter. She could just as easily be his son‘s daughter.
Semi-related side-note:
I was just watching a first season rerun of Billie Piper’s “Secret Diary of a Call Girl” on Showtime. Her character, Hannah/Belle, picked up a guy working in a store she was shopping in and took him home. A guy played by Matt Smith.
So, Rose met the eleventh Doctor in 2007.
Actually, they were together before that – they were both in the 2006 “Masterpiece Theatre” segment The Ruby in the Smoke.
I liked the Doctor’s next-to-last words to Rose: “I bet you have a really great year.”
Here’s hoping that comes true for all of us.
Okay, I admit it, I cried.
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This episode and part I both highlighted something that has always bothered me about the idea of regeneration – that is, it’s a whole new person. While “The Doctor” still remains, *that* Doctor is gone, and lives only in the memory of whoever walks away afterwards.
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Speaking of plot holes – River Song recognized the Tennant Doctor, not the Matt Smith Doctor, and thought it was the one she knew.
I just figured she’d known the Doctor so long she could recognize him in any body. With the nature of the Doctor’s nonlinear body, she might have met him in several different forms and just assumed that Tennent was a new one.
…or, perhaps, that Little Blue Book has his entire bio in it, from whenever she’s going to know him…
No, first she recognized him, then she went looking through the little blue tardis book.
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Which reminds me, whoever the props people are on this show, they do an awesome job. I loved how the little blue book looked like the Tardis. I loved the diary they made for the Doctor when he turned himself into a human, it was beautiful. The pocket watch, the sonic screwdriver, and many other details have been great. There are a lot of very talented people working behind the scenes in props and other departments.
Yeah, that still fits – what i meant was that he’s in there, because she wrote him in there, because, at some point in the future (his, her past) he describes all his regenerations to her.
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I was sort of mentally-shorthanding that.
If he had described all his past regenerations to her, then she would have known from the start that he was younger than she’d ever met him before. She didn’t know that, so that can’t be it.
“Speaking of plot holes – River Song recognized the Tennant Doctor, not the Matt Smith Doctor, and thought it was the one she knew.”
That was before Tennant decided to leave. As I understand it, Tennant would originally have been in the upcoming story that now features Smith.
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I’m guessing Steven Moffat had to do a pretty nifty (if not hefty) revision to his sequel/prequel – River had already described The Doctor (paraphrasing) as “not quite yet the person” she was familiar with (even though she knew him on sight), and, when tennant decided to go, it probably would’ve flowed better if Moffat had stayed with his original intent of hiring an older actor for his Doctor. But then Smith had to come in and blow him away with his audition …
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I have every confidence that Moffat will be able to pull it off, but I’ll miss the never-to-be second (for Dr 10) yet first (for River) encounter.
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Man, it’s hard to write about time-travel and have it make sense!
Earl, where did you read about Moffat’s intent to get an older Doctor?
Did anybody watch/TiVo “Demons” Saturday night? It had a preview of the upcoming season of Doctor Who, with lots of snippets, plenty of Matt Smith crying out “Geronimo!”. Demons itself was kinda fun.
It looked like some British writers said, “Hey, let’s make our own Buffy the Vampire Slayer! But different!” Seriously, the teenage hero’s mentor is a 40-something man from across the Atlantic named Rupert.
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Other than that, I mainly thought it was borderline. The teenage hero is okay, but not that interesting yet. The mentor is terrible, he has no facial expression and is written like an American who desperately wants to be English, which just seems desperate. It’s not horrible, but so far it doesn’t seem to add much to a fairly generic formula.
I agree with your assessment. I’m not surprised it only lasted 6 episodes before getting the axe. I never watched Buffy, so like I said, it was kinda fun. I mostly enjoyed the Doctor Who preview, which was my main point.
Was it this one?
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http://wbx.me/l/?p=1&u=http://www.comicmix.com/news/2010/01/02/doctor-whos-new-trailer/
Why yes, I believe that is the one they showed on the BBCA during Demons.
A mess. Some great moments with Tennant and Cribbins, and certainly suspenseful at some points, but the plot was all over the place, and I cannot stand the crazy Master (Simm does much better at those moments when the Master isn’t cackling), and I hate seeing the Time Lords made mad and corrupt. And Donna is still a painful farce, the best companion since Sarah Jane laid low and left a joke.
While we wouldn’t be here with RTD, by this point he brings very little to the table. I can’t say I’ll miss his presence.
Tennant, however, is on the short list with Tom Baker and Peter Davison. He did so much with weak scripts, moments of histrionics, and Michelle Ryan. And when he had a good script, or Catherine Tate, he was brilliant. Matt Smith has some massive shoes to fill.
I loved it.
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As for the mystery woman, I caught that it might be his mother toward the end, but up to that point I assumed it was the White Guardian. But, of course, there is nothing saying that it can’t be both. Or, neither.
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I think that the Time Lady who was killed by Rassilon at the debate table was Romana. As a former President, she would be at the table. And, as a former Companion, she would have the compassion to put forth such an idea.
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I did have a crazy thought that the other Weeping Angel looked like he was wearing an old Tom Baker wig. (I read somewhere, years ago, that Tom Baker wore a wig in exactly his own hairstyle in his first season because when he saw it in the prop room it made him laugh.)
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I really enjoyed the Reward. I liked how Tennant’s death was a combination of Pertwee (radiation poisoning), Baker’s (a fall caused while trying to stop the Master), and Davidson’s (sacrificing himself to save his companion, which, now that I think of it also applies to Eccleson’s.) I don’t think that it was overly drawn out. A human can survive for up to 36 hours (Cecil Kelly, 1958) after taking around 15,000 rem. So, I don’t think that giving The Doctor 20 minutes or so of looking in on some of his past loves is unreasonable.
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I’m not understanding all of the anti-RTD talk (and, not just here, but elsewhere.) No, he didn’t hold our hands and say “this is how the Doctor survived the fall,” or “this is who the woman is.” But, really, he shouldn’t have to. Dr Who has always been a children’s show written for adults. Kids don’t ask those sorts of questions. And, adults are capable of answering them ourselves.
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For example, someone above said that the Doctor fell 400 feet. I don’t know where they got that figure. What I saw was that the Doctor hit a sharp up-turn to cancel his forward momentum and direct it upwards. He then jumped an indeterminate distance (possibly less than 50 feet), allowing that upward momentum to slow his fall. Add to that the fact that he crashed through the skylight (and we know, either from other movies or from MythBusters, that crashing through something reduces damage in a fall) and I have no problem believing that he would be hurt, but not mortally so. And, IMHO, RTD didn’t have to spell that out because doing so would have hurt the drama of the scene.
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I also have to say that even knowing that “Four Knocks” referring to the Master’s drum beat was too obvious, and knowing that the Doctor’s deaths usually happen outside of the action sequences, I was still caught completely off guard by what really should have been obvious. I mean, really, I thought the Doctor would go down fighting? How often does he really get to do that? No, the Doctor more often gets quiet deaths that he could have avoided if he wasn’t so heroic.
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Theno
“Earl, where did you read about Moffat’s intent to get an older Doctor?”
It was online somewhere (possibly gallifreynewsbase, or one of the news outlets they link to). It was right after Smith had been announced. Moffat was quoted as saying he had been looking for someone older, but was so impressed with young Smith’s ability to seem both very young and very old at the same time that he knew he had his new Doctor.
FOUND IT! (sort of):
I couldn’t track down the original Moffat interview, but it figures into a recent ‘Times Online’ article:
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The relevant paragraph:
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-During casting, Moffat said he felt “there were too many young people on the list” and hoped to find someone in their thirties or forties — “and of course we ended up casting a 26-year-old”. Smith is the youngest actor to be cast in the role. Born in Northampton, Smith has cut a dash on the London stage and in the television drama Party Animals, and Moffat praised his “dynamism” and “swagger”.-
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The entire article:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6973483.ece
Okay, that doesn’t sound like it’ll have any affect on his plans. Even if Moffat gotten someone in his 30s, he still would have been noticeably younger than the actress playing River Song. Considering the conversation River had with the Doctor where he said he was old, we’re already having to throw chronological age of the actor out the window.
in ‘Dr Who Confidential’ – an extra bit we get on British telly (which you might get in the states or on the DVD’s – I really don’t know) Moffat actually stated to an off-camera interviewer that he initially felt only an older man could possess the necessary gravitas of the Doctor – a man with presence, authority etc.
Matt Smith was the first actor to audition and apparently blew him away. Moffat continued to audition other (presumably more senior) actors, but ultimately came to the decision that Matt was the best man for the job and that his initial feeling had been proven wrong.
This is all paraphrased btw – I don’t actually have it in front of me to reference. You might find it on youtube I guess.
Only from Christopher Eccleston’s episodes. I’ve had to catch the others on YouTube. not many though, as the BBC is rather draconian about what appears outside the UK.
Speaking of YouTube, I was looking for Don’t Turn Out Like Your Mother to play for my recently-engaged friend at work, and someone with an edit suite did this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOD7IZNYDs
I’m just sorry I didn’t do it first.
Interesting bit of fan-wank (including lots more in the comments) about this at io9…
I have the impression that we didn´t saw Mr. Tennant goodbye as the doctor, but rather Mr. Russel T. Davies as head of the proyect.
is not that Tennant wont be missed, but the whole melodramatic farewell to his friends it´s a father-like goodbye to his creation.
I don´t think that this last contribution was at the level of his carrer as Dr. Who writer. But I really think that he deserve to do wathever he wanted, due to the very fine show that he run the last 5 years!
Overall, I liked it; and I liked the revelation that the knocking four times wasn’t a reference to the drumbeat the Master hears in his head, but that the knocks came from Wilf.
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By the way, for those who don’t know, Bernard Cribbins has a previous association with Doctor Who. He appeared as a companion to Peter Cushing’s Doctor in Daleks Invasion Earth: 2150 A.D.. For those who own Peter Haining’s book Doctor Who: 25 Glorious Years, there’s a photo with Cribbins and Cushing on page 99 (I always found it curious that nowhere on the season 4 DVDs (at least those sold in North America) did anyone mention Cribbins’ previous history with Doctor Who. But then no one mentioned Georgia Moffett’s connection, either).
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Anyway, back to “The End of Time.” I agree with Jason M. Bryant that the Doctor wasn’t screaming at Wilf so much as he was screaming at himself, as he realized that his actions in “The Waters of Mars” were taking him down a dark road. In fact, I wrote recently that perhaps a key in-story reason why the 11th Doctor decides to travel with a companion again is because, as Donna said in “The Runaway Bride”, the Doctor sometimes needs someone to stop him. Perhaps the Doctor, even with his new personality, will recognize that he could one day again find himself embracing an “I can do anything I want because I’m the last of the Timelords” mentality (or one of the two last, if the Master’s still alive), and giving in to the temptation to play the God of Time. And so decides he needs someone to keep him grounded.
Of course the TV show reason why the Doctor needs a companion is because he can’t go around talking to himself all the time.
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Yes, the radiation overdose was similar to the Pertwee Doctor’s end, but I didn’t mind that so much. As to the Doctor’s fall, I don’t recall, but didn’t he jump when the spaceship swooped down until it was almost right above the building? If so, his surviving the fall might be more believable than if he’d jumped when the ship was higher in the sky.
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Though I suppose it’s possible he’d borrowed one of Rick Jones’ parachutes, only this one happened to be invisible.
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The 10th Doctor’s end was similar to the Third Doctor’s in another way, too. Both had to face their fear. In the Third Doctor’s case, it was returning the Metebelis crystal to the cave of the giant spider, even knowing the danger (radiation and otherwise). For the 10th Doctor, it meant sacrificing that particular life, even though he still had so much more he could do.
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The irony, of course, is that if he’d run out on Wilf, he’d have tripped over a brick and regenerated anyway.
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I liked how the Doctor described regeneration as a form of death. Yes, The Doctor will live on, but as a new person. That which makes the 10th Doctor a unique individual will be gone. The 11th will remember everything, but filtered through a different personality with different thoughts and attitudes.
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Myself, if I were writing that scene, I’d have been tempted to have the Doctor comment upon past incarnations from a (relatively) objective standpoint: “and for a time, I had this thing for question marks. Wore them on collars, and even a pullover. At least the scarf had some practical uses.”
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And then he’d get back on track with “but anyway”, or something similar, since the 10th Doctor has been known to wander off topic. And, of course, meandering a bit would be understandable, given the subject matter.
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Myself, I’d have preferred if only one Doctor had gone with the question mark motif. It could have been an affectation of that particular incarnation, who figures it this way: “I never tell people my real name, just a title; and I sometimes tend to leave once the crisis is over before anyone can ask questions. Might as well play up the man of mystery bit.” Oh well. Too bad it wasn’t done that way.
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By the way, has it ever been established within the fictional Doctor Who universe whether the circumstances of a regeneration affect what the next Doctor (or any Timelord) will look like? Obviously, with regard to the TV series, the 11th Doctor looks the way he does because Matt Smith was cast in the part; but within the fictional universe, would the 11th Doctor have looked the same if the 10th Doctor had gone through a full regeneration in “The Stolen Earth”?
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But anyway… I didn’t mind the Doctor seeing his friends one last time, though it might’ve been better if we’d gotten a sense that he was racing the clock. He didn’t show any signs of pain until after he’d seen Rose and was struggling to get back to the TARDIS. That’s not to say he should’ve been doubled over in agony all the time, but even something as subtle as a brief twinge of pain when he rescued Luke would’ve served as a visual reminder that the Doctor was living on borrowed time. Or maybe a twinge of pain as the started to step into the TARDIS after waving to Sarah Jane, with a look in her eyes telling us she knew regeneration was imminent.
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I liked the scene with Joan Redfern’s granddaughter. But did I hear right? After the Doctor asked whether Joan was happy, did the granddaughter ask, “were you?” If so, does that mean she somehow knew (or guessed) who he was?
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The reference to Queen Elizabeth I near the start of part 1 was kind of cute. I assume that was put there in part to give us some hint as to why the Doctor had earned her enmity in “The Shakespeare Code”, a way to tie up that loose thread.
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Yogzilla, when I saw the gauntlet Timothy Dalton was wearing, I immediately thought of the Hand of Omega (see the episode “Remembrance of the Daleks”). I didn’t consider that Dalton might be portraying Rassilon. I assumed he was a more recent president, one chosen some time after the Doctor’s own (albeit absent) tenure in the office.
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Jonathan, as to the possibility that Wilf might’ve been a Timelord in hiding/amnesiac, I had a similar thought when the Doctor asked him why they seemed to have this connection. For a brief moment I wondered if he might have been a future incarnation of the Doctor who’d used a chameleon arch for some reason or other. No idea why that thought came to me, except that it would’ve been an unexpected reveal. Though it still wouldn’t have fully explained why they kept crossing paths.
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As to Matt Smith’s Doctor, I’m looking forward to seeing how he’ll play the part. You can’t always judge by a Doctor’s immediate behavior post-regeneration, so I’m not drawing any definite conclusions from his brief scene in “The End of Time”. And here’s a bit of irony.The same morning that I saw Matt Smith’s new scenes (and knowing nothing about how he’d portray the Doctor), I just happened to be thinking about the phrase “Geronimo.”
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Finally, some questions: In the initial run of the series (I agree with Doctor Who Magazine’s contention that it’s all one series, just with a really long hiatus), every new Doctor except Pertwee carried over a companion or companions from his previous incarnation (most of whom actually witnessed the regeneration). Is such a thing necessary anymore? Should a companion have witnessed the 10th Doctor’s regeneration into the 11th; and when the time comes should a companion witness the 11th Doctor becoming the 12th? One thing I’ve always liked about Doctor Who, and one thing I believe helps account for its long run, is the changing dynamic as new companions and Doctors are introduced from time to time. Since, for the most part, we’re down to one companion at a time, wouldn’t it make for some interesting character dynamics if companions overlapped each other and/or overlapped Doctors? Or to give another example, consider M*A*S*H. Hawkeye and Trapper (and later Hawkeye and B.J.) had an ongoing antagonistic relationship with Frank, but when Frank left and Charles came in, the relationships changed, subtly. For the most part, it was still Hawkeye and B.J. on one side and Charles on the other, but there were instances (akin to the shifting dynamics of sibling rivalry) where either Hawkeye or B.J. would side with Charles against the other. That’s not to say that companions should argue with each other and/or with the Doctor (obviously they’re not in a near-to-the-battlefield hospital situation), but I liked that the dynamic was shaken up from time to time.
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Of course I don’t expect the issue of a companion reacting to a new Doctor to come up for some time. Unless a previous companion made a return appearance. I still want to see Ian Chesterton meet a post-Hartnell Doctor). The Doctor, even after all these regenerations, would still call him “Checkerton.”
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Rick
Companions overlapping Doctors: I think not having a companion overlap this time was just because of his lack of a companion at all, which served a greater purpose. When I look at Russel T. Davies run as a whole, I think he was exploring what the companions really mean to the Doctor. He started out giving the Doctor a companion who he felt closer to than any before her. Then he had the rebound companion who didn’t connect with him as much as she wanted to, then the buddy. Finally the Doctor spent some time alone and we found out just how badly things can go when he doesn’t have someone.
So I’d expect companions to be around for regenerations in the future, but maybe not as a set rule. It’s probably going to depend on how much the fans and writers like the current companion when the Doctor dies.
When I look at Russel T. Davies run as a whole, I think he was exploring what the companions really mean to the Doctor. He started out giving the Doctor a companion who he felt closer to than any before her. Then he had the rebound companion who didn’t connect with him as much as she wanted to, then the buddy. Finally the Doctor spent some time alone and we found out just how badly things can go when he doesn’t have someone.
I think that’s about as succinct breakdown of what RTD was probably trying to do as can be found. inter-personal relationships is something he’s focused on in previous programmes he’s written for, so I guess it’s no suprise the companion dymanic is what he would zone in on.
But then no one mentioned Georgia Moffett’s connection, either
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Or David Troughton’s, for that matter. I can understand if he doesn’t want it brought up that he’s Patrick Troughton’s son when they’re doing the Confidentials, but he too played roles in the original series.
He didn’t?
Rick:
You were right about the question Redfern’s granddaughter asked the Doctor, although it wasn’t spoken very loudly.
However he never gave a verbal response in return.
That non-reply by the Doctor spoke volumes. It affected me as much as his last words and some of his exchanges with Wilf.
Myself, if I were writing that scene, I’d have been tempted to have the Doctor comment upon past incarnations from a (relatively) objective standpoint: “and for a time, I had this thing for question marks. Wore them on collars, and even a pullover. At least the scarf had some practical uses.”
They did something like that in the short, “Timecrash” (for the “Children in Need” telethon, when the Tenth Doctor and the Fifth Doctor run into each other…), anf Ten twits Five about his outfit…
By the way, has it ever been established within the fictional Doctor Who universe whether the circumstances of a regeneration affect what the next Doctor (or any Timelord) will look like?
Don’t know about that, but (at least in the novelisation; haven’t seen the episodes) the Second Doctor’s regeneration was forced by the Timelords when they caught up with him (remember, he stole the TARDIS) … and they chose a form that particularly annoyed him. (The Second and Third Doctors despised each other; they were literally almost complete opposites – one short, dark and scruffy, the other tall, white-haired and elegant.)
I liked the scene with Joan Redfern’s granddaughter. But did I hear right? After the Doctor asked whether Joan was happy, did the granddaughter ask, “were you?” If so, does that mean she somehow knew (or guessed) who he was?
Given that she dd a take when he said to autograph the book to “The Doctor”, i’d say so,
Been thinking about the Peter Cushing WHO movies; someone should write a novel where it turns out that Cushing’s Who actually IS one of the Doctor’s regenerations – only he’s forgotten he’s a Timelord, a’la the stopwatch contrivance from “Family of Blood,” etc. I’d read it.
Bud:
If the BBC EVER decides to fold the Peter Cushing movies into their officially recognized continuity, the best way to do it would be to establish them as adventures of the First Doctor William Hartnell before the series started with “An Unearthly Child” back in 1963.
I’m not very familiar with pre-revival Who, but I was under the impression that the reason Cushing’s Doctor was not part of the official canon is because the films were essentially adaptations of stories from the TV serials. What would be the point of basically declaring that the Doctor went through roughly the same events in different incarnations?
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Chuck
Just for the fun of it. Shoot, I even enjoyed the “Curse of Fatal Death” incarnation/s of the Doctor/s. LOL
On the more serious side, though, for those who weren’t exposed to the show in the 60’s, but were able to see the films, it might have a nostalgic appeal to them.
It’s kind of a shame, really, that so much effort and expense went into making those two films (which I don’t think were all that similar to their television counterparts), only to see them relegated to the dustbin as it were.
Thought the story was “meh” and the plot logic all over the place, but there were some superb moments in there, mostly due to Messers Tennant and Cribbins, both of whom were brilliant. Was a bit unfortunate that there were clearly visible gaps in the glass between the door and frame of the radiation booth things, though.
As for the final words, I didn’t dislike them per say but was a bit unsure of the delivery (even if this did reflect the attitude of the audience). Would personally have liked to see No.10 man up a bit at the end and take the regeneration on the chin. RTD over-did the Mopey Doctor throught this story and Waters of Mars, IMO.
I’ve read commments here and elsewhere about the Time Lords being made into “villains.” However, haven’t they always been depicted as either overtly corrupt or simply pompous politicians (the latter are easily swayed to evil when the chips are down).
These are the same people who *killed* the 2nd Doctor, who tried to kill the 5th and 6th. They were consistent antagonists in the series.
definitely worth watching. my interpretation was that it was the doctors mother, because there were two woman(not just the one) behind Rasilon. I speculate that one was the Doctors and the other one was the Masters mother.
-Lono
Apparently RTD openly states that it’s supposed to be “the Doctor’s mum” in the newly revised edition of The Writer’s Tale.
Apparently RTD openly states that it’s supposed to be “the Doctor’s mum” in the newly revised edition of The Writer’s Tale.
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He can speculate all he wants. It wasn’t stated on screen, therefore, we don’t know who the woman is or intended to be.
It’s not really “speculation” – he baldly states his intention that it’s the Doctor’s mother, and that this will not be made explicit to basically drive the fans crazy. Yes, it’s not spelled out onscreen so it could later be said to be anyone, but personally I hope the new production team NEVER go back to it. Obsessing over pointless continuity minutiae like that was what helped derail the original iteration of the show.
He can’t have it both ways. He specifically brought the Paul McGann incarnation into canon; that Doctor said he was human on his mother’s side. Those were time lords, not humans.
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that Doctor said he was human on his mother’s side.
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Bah. Everybody knows that was said due to another regeneration having gone a bit wrong. 😉
I think the “half human Doctor” thing has been retconned away and hopefully quietly forgotten about – RTD, like most of fandom, seemed to hate the idea. Journey’s End also makes a pretty big song and dance about how the newly half human Meta-crisis Doctor is a totally unique event in time and space, etc.
I always, even the first time I saw it, took the Doctor’s claim that he was “half-human on his mother’s side” to be a flippant nonsensical remark meant to confuse the person he was talking to and get out of the conversation.
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It certainly wouldn’t have been the first time.
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Theno
This is also somewhat addressed in a deleted part of the EoT P.2 script discussed in the Writer’s Tale.
The Doctor has a deleted line that claims he (paraphrased) ‘…WAS briefly half-human for a few days back in 1999 but he got better’
What I heard was that a producer said Mystery Woman was the Doctor’s mom (excuse me, “mum”), but then RTD said something that contradicted that. I’d love to see a source, either way.
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As for the Doctor having a human mother, I again wish I hadn’t missed that TV movie. Is there any chance that Time Lords are similar to Omniman from the comic Invincible? So when a Time Lord mates with another species, the Time Lord DNA overwhelms the other DNA and the child is still 100% Time Lord?
In the updated Writer’s Tale (The Final Chapter), the book Davies penned with Benjamin Cook, Davies says his *intention* is that it is the Doctor’s mother though he left it deliberately vague on screen and so it’s not canonical.
Personally, being his ‘Mother’doesn’t make that proverbial lick of sense (just as Peter says) because I think using a character no-one’s really thought about in 40+ years, that wasn’t defined before and certainly remains uninvested in to some extent) makes much less sense than Romana which at least would have held some resonance to those who knew who she was. Leaving it vague also proves annoying as it’s one thing to be enignmatic, it’s another to build your resolution on such an ephermeral pillar of character and plot. If that makes sense.
Then again, Davies writes for Who and I write for magazines, so he gets the last word. 🙂