Originally published June 12, 1992
While at Wondercon, Sharon Cho–an agent with Star*Reach productions–came over to the Marvel table where I had more or less set up shop, and handed me the following letter that she had intended to mail:
“I just read your BID (5/1/92), the one that contained a section on Basic Instinct. You said, `But there’s nothing in the movie that implies “Gay = Cretin.”…Because everyone in the movie is a cretin.‘
“Peter, I am gay. I wish we lived in a world where we can write anything or film anything or draw anything without having to think about social ramifications, but we don’t. There are a lot of people out there who don’t have an open mind, who don’t know their cousin is gay, who feel that we should be locked up behind bars `for our own good.’
“Peter, have you ever stood in line to go into a bar and have a few carfuls of men drive by, throwing cans and yelling things like `Ðÿkë! Why doncha find yourself a real man!’ Or walked down a hallway, passing by a woman whose eyes turn wide at the sight of you, back up to the wall to avoid your touch and scream at you to go away after you have safely passed? I have, (in a big `gay friendly’ city) and let me tell you, it shook me up to know that there is such hatred or ignorance in the world.
“Perhaps you’re right; just because everyone in a movie or a comic book is portrayed as a cretin, it’s okay to portray gays and bisexuals as cretins. But there’s a lot of people out there who can’t make that jump in logic. It’s those people that I’m scared of, the ones that knifed to death an acquaintance of mine who walked out of a gay restaurant, the ones that ignored AIDS because it was a gay disease, the ones like my mother who threw out towels and lysoled everything after a gay male friend of mine used the bathroom.
“It’s not often you, being a white, heterosexual male, experience this type of prejudice. I’m a Chinese, homosexual woman; I get it often enough not to want any justification or excuses for people to hate me or be afraid of me.
“I wish there were more open-minded people, people who can look at things logically like you. But then, you can’t always get what you want, right?”
Well, Sharon and I had a couple of lively discussions after that, some of which I’ll relate here–not verbatim, ’cause I don’t remember every word, but the general thrust.
A lot of what concerns gays about films such as Basic Instinct (and, for that matter, women about hard-core pørņ) is the concept of reinforcement of stereotypes. But I have a problem buying into this concern, for the following reason:
I don’t think people are that stupid. Pretty stupid, by and large, yes, but not that stupid.
I think that when it comes to matters of sexual persuasion, it’s one of those things that adults already have an opinion on (and kids shouldn’t be seeing Basic Instinct anyway–the “R” in this case stands for “Really Not Kidding”). Either the concept of homosexuality bothers you (“It’s a sin”; “It’s sick”) or it doesn’t (“Love is love”; “Who am I to judge someone else?”).
On that basis, I don’t believe that Basic Instinct is going to affect people’s opinions, because with something like this, opinions were formed long before the audiences queued up to watch Sharon Stone not wear underwear. I simply have a great deal of trouble believing that someone who is not predisposed against gays is going to come out of that movie saying, “Oh my God, lesbians are murderers! I had no idea! I’m gonna beat me up some lezzies before they stab me with an ice pick!” Any more so than (to use the other example I brought up) someone who is anti-gay is going to come out of Frankie and Johnny and say, “Wow, you know, I never knew that gay men could be so witty and charming. No more gay bashing for me.”
I believe that people pick and choose what they will accept as credible evidence for those things that go to the core of their nature. At this point I’m still not sure where I stand with Bill Clinton or Ross Perot–that’s something my opinion can be affected on. But a number of years ago, in an office, I stumbled over a truly hardcore pørņ magazine–the first such I’d ever seen. I flipped through it, encountered some nauseating images, tossed it away immediately out of disgust, and that was that. I didn’t see those pictures and become transformed into a debaser of women. And I don’t believe that people are going to see Basic Instinct and have their opinions materially changed one way or the other.
Now of course, the logical way to disagree with me on this point is the way that Sharon did–to say, in essence, “You don’t understand. You haven’t been there.”
My response to that is–Yes. I have.
Surprise.
I have written in the past about how much I hated Verona, New Jersey, where I spent my early adolescence. I never really made clear why. Now I will.
One of the oldest cliches is, “Some of my best friends are gay.” I will go that one better–My best man was gay. A friend of mine, Keith, was the best man at my wedding some fifteen years ago. And he was (presumably still is) gay.
But in the years before I got married, Keith and I were friends in Verona, first in junior high and then in the first year of high school.
It was somewhat evident to all concerned that Keith was gay…except to Keith himself. His mannerisms were somewhat effeminate, and he never showed particular interest towards females at a time when most guys were following girls around with their eyes leaping out of their heads (remember, minis and hot pants were big at the time). Whenever I’d discuss girls, he’d sort of be politely interested, but that was about it. It wasn’t until we were both adults that he admitted to himself, and to me, that he was gay, at which point I told him this wasn’t exactly a shock.
But he was, during those middle school and early high school years, my best friend. And I paid for that dearly, because everyone assumed I was gay, too.
And boy, did they let me have it.
If Keith and I so much as walked down a hallway together, the shouts of “Fággøŧš” would be hurled at us. I had almost no other friends besides Keith–no one wanted to be seen with me. All the way into my junior year of high school, I couldn’t get a date. What girl would want to go out with me, after all? It wouldn’t do their own rep any good, and besides, if I tried to kiss her or something, I’d probably just be faking it, right?
Then Keith’s family moved away as I entered my sophomore year. That was the worst; then I was totally alone. We’d talk on the phone all the time, but the day-in, day-out reality of life…well, Sharon, no, I’ve never stood outside a bar and been harassed by cars full of men. However, I did get to kick off my second year of high school with the word “FÃG” having been scrawled in big, indelible marker on my locker. Good enough?
A high school is a very confined, closed social atmosphere in which to have no friends. Yes, it’s pretty lousy to be hated and despised for something you are. I can assure you it’s also not great fun to be loathed for something you aren’t. That’s one reason I always find it ironic when the the junior high and high school aged kids clamor for my autograph at a convention. Because, when I was their age, they wouldn’t have come near me with a ten meter cattle prod.
Of course, there’s plenty of hatred reserved for what one is, too. No, I haven’t had a woman recoil upon seeing me (well, maybe my wife, first thing in the morning–but that’s not the same thing). However, I have had people tell me that they wish my grandparents hadn’t escaped Nazi Germany so that I had never been born. I have had people hand me fliers explaining that Jews are secretly running the country and that we should all be exterminated.
Being a white heterosexual male, Sharon, I don’t experience your sort of prejudice. On the other hand, you’ll never have to deal with one of your daughters asking you how to deal with the fact that boy she thought was a friend told her that he couldn’t stand Jews. (I suggested inviting him over so that I could back the car over him; she worked it out herself.)
Sometimes I think that’s one of the main problems with this country. No one listens or makes any attempt to understand what anyone else is saying, because there’s this intrinsic belief that everyone’s feelings are unique. This is not true. Experiences are unique, yes. But not feelings. Hatred, love, bigotry, jealousy…these are universal.
If John Doe says, “You don’t understand because you haven’t been through what I’ve been through,” this misses the point to a large degree. What John is really saying is, “If you’d been through the experiences that I’d been through, then you would agree with me.” Which, of course, boils down to, “I agree with everything I believe in. And if you were me, you would, too.” But because I’m not John Doe, John automatically assumes that any disagreement with his point of view comes from ignorance on my part.
But, as noted above, hatred and love are universal. As far as I’m concerned, the reasons for the emotions are not quite as important as the fact that the emotions are being felt. I think there’s a lot more common ground between people than people generally believe, if they’d just choose to see it. However, because there’s this “You’re not me” mindset, those commonalities are obscured and the differences are focussed on. In fact, not just focussed on, but magnified to the point where there are huge chasms between people, and simple common sense gets lost in the shuffle.
“You’re not me” proceeds from a false assumption of relevance.
Without this commanlity of feelings and emotions, the fictional world of comics (and movies and books, etc.) could not possibly work. We identify with and care about characters because they’re experiencing–not necessarily specific incidents that we’ve gone through–but emotions and feelings that are universal. The details of a busted romance aren’t near as important as the heartache it brings.
Ironic, then, that we have such an easy time opening ourselves up to fictional characters, but when it comes to fellow human beings, we close up and say, “You couldn’t possibly understand.”
Eventually, by the way–for anyone remotely interested–my family wound up moving as well, taking me out of that North Jersey hëll hole and transplanting us to Pennsylvania. Things went much better at the high school there. I got dates and everything.
Keith and I got together a few times after I got married, but I sensed he was uncomfortable around me. I think my flagrantly heterosexual lifestyle made him edgy. I called him a number of times over the years, urged him to call me back–but he never did. Eventually I got the hint, which saddened me. I’d resolutely kept him as a friend all during the time that that resolve made me a pariah in our social sphere. So now, when it didn’t matter, seemed an odd time to have to let go. But you have to honor the wishes of friends.
Oh–just for the record, I asked Sharon what she thought of the “Daisy Ðÿkë” joke, since all I’d heard from on the topic was outraged heterosexuals protesting on behalf of gays everywhere. She told me she thought it was funny as hëll. So there. Nyaaah.
(Peter David, writer of stuff, admits to being annoyed by one thing about “Basic Instinct”–smokers now have a brand new smart-alecky comeback if told that they are puffing away in a non-smoking area. “What are you going to do? Arrest me for smoking?” Terrific. Thanks a lot, Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone.)
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Awesome column, and very relevant to some of the conversations we’ve had here lately (see: Captain Irony).
I remember that column well. Did you ever get back in touch with Keith?
More pertinently (since you note several attempts were made to reach Keith), did he ever get back in touch with you?
Yeah… it was just like like being gay.
douchebag.
Ah, the internet–where a man puts himself out there with painful emotional memories and some gutless feep with the cloak of anonymity feels compelled to make up a statement not said and knock it down.
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Now go tell your friends, if any, how cool you are.
Bill:
I think it’s ridiculous to talk about being a victim for people thinking he was gay — it’s not that same. And then he invokes his Jewish heritage because that’s the ultimate experience of victimization which allows him to speak for all minorities. I doubt he would accept the reverse.
That’s not funny or smart — If he believes it, it’s ludicrous and if he’s joking it’s offensive. Maybe Kevin didn’t want to be reminded of high school. Maybe he was offended by PAD’s weirdly unacknowledged moments of conservatism. The world may never know.
I don’t think not signing my “real name” makes it less valid of an opinion. I use the same name consistently. On the internet I think that is just as valid.
I think it’s ridiculous to talk about being a victim for people thinking he was gay — it’s not that same.
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I didn’t say it was the same, and you have completely missed the entire point of the column.
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That’s not funny or smart — If he believes it, it’s ludicrous and if he’s joking it’s offensive.
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It was a joke, and far less offensive than showing up on someone’s blog and throwing insults from hiding.
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PAD
“It was a joke, and far less offensive than showing up on someone’s blog and throwing insults from hiding.”
I forgot — blogs are private communication forums. You can set posting to approval only. Problem solved.
I came here because someone linked to the piece on Dollhouse. I read another link and remembered why I had decided never to come back after the whole Scans Daily debacle. The discourse here isn’t one I’m comfortable with.
Having said that, internet forums are self-selecting, so there’s no reason to read things that irritate you or post where you’re not wanted.
Good day. Sorry to have darkened your doorstep.
I didn’t say it was the same, and you have completely missed the entire point of the column.
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Captain Irony strikes again!
“I read another link and remembered why I had decided never to come back …”
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And yet you did. Seems troll-like to me.
I read another link and remembered why I had decided never to come back after the whole Scans Daily debacle. The discourse here isn’t one I’m comfortable with.
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You mean acting like an áššhølë and being called on it?
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PAD
You not only ignore the part where I point out he didn’t say that his being bullied was, in your words, “the same” as being gay, you double down with a new one–invoking Jewishness “allows him to speak for all minorities”.
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I contend that when you have to make up someone’s words to condemn them it’s probably because you have nothing better to work with. To do so with a made up name–even one that you consistently use when haranguing others–strikes me as gutless. If that is “valid” on the internet it is only because the standards of civil discourse on the internet are so abysmal.
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At the very least you should make some effort to put some reality behind the insults. All I’m seeing here is weak conjecture, which makes one wonder about either your motivations and/or reasoning.
Ah. A Scans Daily person. Nuff said.
Why is it ridiculous for him to talk about this? Clearly, he was victimized. Heck, I’m a gay man, and I’ve never been victimized for being gay the way Peter has, and he isn’t even gay! So, just because he’s not really gay, that means he doesn’t get to talk about the times he was victimized? THAT’S ridiculous, especially considering that the context of the story he related was a discussion about prejudice and the notion that gay people deserve contempt, which is exactly what he experienced first-hand.
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But if you’re actually offended by him joking about his “flagrantly heterosexual lifestyle” (which I thought was pretty funny), you’re obviously very, very sensitive about… something, so if I were you I’d show a little sensitivity to others, any maybe try not insulting people over their unpleasant childhood memories.
I’m pretty sure he’s gone, Robert. He accomplished what he needed to accomplish: He showed up on the site of the evil, Scans-killing Peter David, verified that I’m an insensitive cad, told me off and left again so he doesn’t have to bother with my brown-nosing lemmings.
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PAD
Aside from the sarcasm, that’s almost completely correct. I came back to read the article on Dollhouse, read this article, got offended, lashed out, was reminded that your site was full of aggressive, vaguely neoconservative sycophants, and felt validated about my choice to quit reading X-Factor and She Hulk (before it got canceled).
I admire your ability to not care that your online persona causes you to lose fans right and left and that the quality of your writing causes many people who dislike you to continue reading your books.
And for the record, I never read Scan Daily regularly, I just thought your thoughts about and reactions to to the site were shockingly reactionary and impractical.
You know, Jigae, I don’t know you, but I think your thoughts about and reactions to people on this site are shockingly reactionary and impractical. And show you’re being a complete asshat.
was reminded that your site was full of aggressive, vaguely neoconservative sycophants,
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I think the neocons who hang around here would find that assertion almost as ludicrous as…well, as pretty much everything else you’ve said.
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You said it yourself: You “lashed out.” And you got slapped right back. And in your mind, everything you said and did was wholly justified and everything you got in response was unfair and mean.
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Has it occurred to you that the people who continue with my work because they like it even if they disagree with my personal opinions have the right attitude and yours is the wrong one? That they are capable of separating the man from the work because they are mature and intelligent? I disagree with Iowa Jim, for instance, on dámņëd near every aspect of the political spectrum, but at least he’s got enough class to continue supporting my work. Or is he one of “sycophants” you’re referring to? Because if so, he’s doing a crap ášš job in that regard.
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PAD
Ah, those evil neo-cons…is there nothing they won’t do, no perfidy too base for them to stoop to?
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I fear we are looking at an all too typical example of what is to come; a generation raised on the lower aspects of the internet culture, where theft is freedom and anonymous attacks in the form of mindless repetition of talking points is what passes for deep thought.
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The two minute hate on PAD from the Scans Daily gang (or, to be fair, the idiot members of same, who are doubtlessly an embarrassment to the other members) has gone far beyond its allotted time. keep it up and people might get the idea that you’re just a bunch of malign thugs.
I meant to stop before, I really am stopping now. We don’t know each other, we won’t change each other, and it’s a waste of all of our time.
Like I said, sorry for invading your space. And Bill, I’m actually in my thirties, so please generalize about the right generation — I’m in the evil, good for nothing slacker group, not the evil, good for nothing, raised by the media group.
Bye.
Like I said, sorry for invading your space.
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You didn’t invade my space. If I were concerned about…uh…space invaders…I would have some sort of sign up procedure. I would also monitor comments and simply block or delete any that I find annoying. Instead I keep this space as free, open and accessible as humanly possible. I do so as a courtesy. One would think this would prompt everyone who participates to extend some courtesies back instead of coming in and hurling everything from accusations to insults to profanities but, hey, that’s the way that goes.
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You are as welcome here as anyone else, including those non-existent sycophant neocons. That you have chosen to make yourself feel unwelcome is entirely your own decision. Own up to it, don’t own up to it. It’s entirely up to you.
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PAD
oops: I meant Keith.
“Yes, it’s pretty lousy to be hated and despised for something you are. I can assure you it’s also not great fun to be loathed for something you aren’t.”
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As an Aspie (a person with Asperger’s Syndrome), who grew up decades before the diagnosis existed, I can assure you that it’s also no picnic to be hated and despised for something you are, but for which no one has a name – just being “different”…
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On the plus side, it did give me some insight into my wife’s situation – her being black and all. 🙂
What a “difficult” article. It’s thought-provoking with very good points—some of which I’d *like* to argue against (being a minority) but can’t bring myself to refute.
I think you’re (were?) correct. The experiences aren’t always created equal, but the feelings, at least, are real for those people. A hard concept for people to accept, since we seem to generally lack compassion in general.
And non-documentaries (well, even then…) won’t really bring out any negativity or positivity that wasn’t already latent in a person’s mind. I don’t think Do the Right Thing affected any Black supremacists or bigoted White guys.
Personally, I think a lot of the reaction is, well, reactionary. Of course, once a person has suffered abuse, they are on guard against such abuses happening again. Which is why we all ‘react’ so much and why it’s a hot topic (especially online where you can scream and be an a**hole with impunity).
I’m gay and I get uncomfortable watching negative and/or stereotypical portayals of gays in the media (same with geeks too to be honest), because the instant reaction is ‘this is how people see ME’ – it hits on a very personal level. Then you take a step back and remember that not all gay people are angels, or effeminate, or beautiful, or cultured, or drug-user etc etc – but some are.
As for Pete’s tale about his gay friend etc… it’s similar but not the same (and I don’t think his point is to say it IS the same).
I totally agree with you Chad. As a gay male myself, I know that all gay people are definitely not positive role models. It’s uncomfortable, but necessary to have both positive and negative portrayals within the media to present the reality of different situations.
What I think the larger issue (as was so ironically pointed out by Jigae’s flaming posts above) is that the whole “my pain hurts more than your pain” argument is ludicrous no matter who is flaunting it about. Every culture (and sub-culture) has its own share of ridicule and derision from without and within. That entire argument is pointless and gets people nowhere.
It also presents a “my group is perfect while YOURS is the cause of my pain” platform that has been used ad nauseum since Civil Rights became front-page news!
As a straight, conservative African American male who has never been married, I can definitely relate to being “hated for being something that I’m NOT” from several directions due to “the company that I’ve kept” over the years.
The idea of breaking down divisions and looking at people as people instead of “groups” is a beautiful idea, it’s not one that we’re going to witness anytime soon as long as special interest groups can exploit bigotry and isolationism in the press and on the internet IMHO.
I find it ironic that in Hawaii, you can now be arrested for smoking!
When a teacher in school saying there were too many Jews in America, why do we need so many, I remember that it was hard for me to feel like anyone got it. But when I got on my livejournal to sobbingly blog about it, people from all spectrums of life, gay, straight, Asian, African American, and all different religions all got it. They may have not known what it’s like to be a Jewish teenager in a college classroom enduring Antisemitism, but they knew what it’s like to be a human, enduring cruelty.
I don’t think anyone can ever get what it means to be persecuted for being something else, but I think that’s not a barrier to empathy, but an excellent starting off point. I can’t know what it’s like to be gay and persecuted for that, but I can draw on my own experiences and say “I know what it’s like to be abused for who I am, let’s talk about ways we can deal with it.”
I mean, my pregnant friend is having some worries. I don’t need to know what it’s like to be pregnant to know someone else is in pain and have that human instinct to want to help.
I had a gay best friend in Yeshiva and he was a lot like Keith, he was horribly mistreated by his schoolmates and people gave me a lot of abuse (though not as much as you by far) and no, I don’t get what it’s like to be gay, but I think that’s simplistic. I get that my friend Jack was in pain. Isn’t that enough?
Great post!
Wow,
I am a follower of X factor (thank you for giving quality writting!), and today I have found your webpage. You kept me thinking and that is something that I love. I have read 2 or 3 of your columns this morning (don´t tell anybody, Im supposed to be working!) and I have just finished this one.
High School sucked. Of course, I blamed this to having a different sexuality, being gay in Buenos Aires during the 90´s was not fun. Over the years I met with some former classmates, now they are between my closer friends. We discussed about those years, and understood that everybody was hurting. One way or another, everybody was in pain. We related in this sour feeling, and moved on.
With my boyfriend (Nahuel), we have different opinions regarding the issue that you brought. He thinks that the media must protect our minority, in this case, should not allow a movie to portray a lesbian killer. He would agree with Sharon point.
Me, I would mostly agree with your vision.
Great post!