I asked everyone to wait a week before discussing SM3 with spoilers, and for the most part everyone has obliged. So if you guys want to chat about the film with spoilers–discussing specific plot point–here’s where to do it.
PAD
I asked everyone to wait a week before discussing SM3 with spoilers, and for the most part everyone has obliged. So if you guys want to chat about the film with spoilers–discussing specific plot point–here’s where to do it.
PAD
• 
I felt that the whole Sandman thing in the movie was a bit necessary and probably only put in for the nice special effects needed to make the giant Sandman.
What do you think? Could the film have been done without Sandman? It’s not like Sandman is as major a Spidey villain as Goblin, Doc Ock and Venom are.
Not at all superfluous. Spidey’s hunting of him mirrors the Goblin’s hunting of Spidey; they each are driven by a misguided vengeance. They each manage to set it aside. Thematically, someone had to be there. Better to use someone who can return from apparent death and menace him in a giant end fight than someone who just disappears. So no, the narrative didn’t demand Sandman personally, but he fits very well in that he’s a more sympathetic villain.
Also, Sandman furthered the theme of redemption in that he chose to stop fighting (though not, admittedly, to stop running). Still think Spidey shoulda apologised for trying to kill him… but maybe they were even on that score after the severe pummelling. But then, I’d also have liked to have seen the cop-tossed-into-a-car move or something, to show that he was still alive. he certainly looked dead, with his head through the shattering windscreen and all. THAT makes Sandman a touch less sympathetic, and kinda jars with the ‘OMG, you killed a guy?’ vibe we got from his wife — hinting that he’d never killed before. So is he a murderer after all? That cop prolly had kids!
In terms of effects, one of the things I absolutely LOVE in film or television is group fight scenes. Multiple combatants on each side — harder to choreograph, and thus extremely rare, but it’s one of my favorite things to see, especially when it’s done with such style.
I spent much of the movie wishing the cameraman would step back about 3 steps.. all those close in headshots with a wide angle lens made Kirsten Dunst look fat and kept drawing my attention to the scar on Tobey’s right cheek…
Spoilerish .. I thought the movie was fantastic up through the scene on the bridge in the park when MJ was being coerced into breaking up… that scene was so BAD (and so out of character for MJ), that it took me completely out of the movie… (the audience laughing didn’t help).. and I never got it back.
yays! now I can ask questions!
1) um doesnt spidey have spidey sense?
2) how many times does harry have to die?
3) why didnt sandman get..um bonded with the metal in the locket?
4) what was the original ending?
1) Spidey pre-dodged a few times, indicating that his Spidey-sense is still there.
2) So far he’s only died the once. Although it took an awful long time, considering he’d been impaled and dropped a few stories, but I guess we can chalk that up to the Goblin juice.
3) Yeah, I’m wondering why the locket didn’t get dissolved into the solution along with the rest of him.
Far and away the worst bit was the butler ex machina scene, which was totally unconvincing anyway, as was the Sandman’s sudden change of heart at the end.
I also didn’t buy MJ’s sudden career death, the sheer coincidence of Brock’s presence in the church, or the extended scene with both Peter and Harry maskless in front of the whole crowd and calling each other by name.
Spider-Man 3 made my girlfriend brake up with me!
I got tickets for the first day at here request. After the movie gets out she says to me “what side (of the theater) are you parked?”. I point to the left and she says “I’m over on the Right. I’m just going to head home now.” I start to walk her to here car and she says “That’s ok. You don’t have to walk me to my car. I’m all set”. and walks off. Haven’t heard from here since.
My guess is that during the movie she must of realized how much the character of Peter Parker and I are alike. However, I am the “what if Peter Parker never became Spider-Man…and didn‘t study in school…and is now a truck driver.” I could understand if I had just started seeing her like Eddie Brock and Gwen Stacy in the movie. But this was a girl I was seeing for three months!
It was either the movie or she may have been turned off by the way I double dip my nacho chips in the cheese we were sharing.
Oh, totally unrelated question – is there any relationship between Flint Marko and Cain Marko? If we were talking DCU, there’d be no need to ask the question, since even people with differently-spelled variants of the same last name are related somehow (Sanders/Saunders)…
“Oh, totally unrelated question – is there any relationship between Flint Marko and Cain Marko?”
None whatsoever. “Flint Marko” is an alias; his real name is William Baker. The origin of his pseudonym is revealed in the upcoming FNSM annual, written by yours truly.
PAD
My thoughts are the film would have been better sticking with the idea of 50s horror Menace From Space/Russia and focusing on Venom.
I really didn’t care for this film. It was the Batman Forever of the Spider-Man trilogy. Too many villains, corny dialogue, and some painful scenes (the jazz bar).
Sandman superfluous??? No, he was great. It was venom I could have lived without. But, like Raimi, I’m partial to the classic Ditko/Lee Spidey and not so much the modern McFarlane version.
I’d LOVE to have the next one be either the Sinister 6 (6! 6! 6 supervillains! Ah ah ah!) or, better yet, Doc Conner finally goes all scaly and Kraven comes to hunt him down. We’d have Spidey trying to save the life of the Lizard (who is trying to kill him) while Kraven tries to kill both of them. Cool beans.
In a perfect world (well, MY perfect world) the movie would have featured Sandman only, with the fourth film tackling Venom and Harry. As I said on the initial thread, Sandman, Venom/Brock, Harry, Peter/MJ/Gwen are all compelling stories – but none of them were done justice in the overlong and crowded film…
“None whatsoever. “Flint Marko” is an alias; his real name is William Baker. The origin of his pseudonym is revealed in the upcoming FNSM annual, written by yours truly.
PAD”
A writer actually on top of his continuity these days? The mind boggles….
My thoughts were what’s gonna happen to the bit of symbiote in the lab.
My co-worker noticed that Obviously the fire in the pumpkin bomb was more intense then the super hot molten meteroite that brought the symbiote to earth.
Other than that I was grateful that Gwen and Captain Stacy weren’t killed with the falling crane accident.
Though, It might have taken the movie into a more compelling direction with Brock losing his job and his gf because of Parker and Spiderman more motivation for revenger, the city turning on Spidey for his failure to save two people. This way we could have avoided the two abysmal jazz scenes.
As for the Movie, I thought they should have saved Venom him self for another movie. The black costume was perfect for the story, but they should have left it with the same ending as Web of Spider-Man #1. They should have waited until Spider-Man 5 or 6 to do a Venom movie.
I think Venom as a character works best when Peter Parker’s life is going well. He has the girl, he has enough money to get by, and Aunt May is a healthy spring chicken. That (to me) is the best time to bring in the evil version of the super hero.
“Doc Conner finally goes all scaly and Kraven comes to hunt him down. We’d have Spidey trying to save the life of the Lizard (who is trying to kill him) while Kraven tries to kill both of them.”
That was my thought exactly.
I think they should have cut Venom entirely. From the entire film series. The character just does not work outside the context of the Marvel Universe (i.e. without Secret Wars and the whole set-up), and it just barely works there. No writer has ever pulled it off, not Bendis in Ultimate Spider-Man and certainly not the writers of Spider-Man 3. Oh, something black and gooey falls out of the sky and lands near Peter. And then Eddie Brock happens to be praying (praying!) in the same church that Peter happens to be using to get rid it.
Only slightly less silly was Sandman’s origin. He’s running from the cops, he climbs a fence, and, whoops, he runs into a… um… sand… experiment… thingy. One that hasn’t been mentioned before, and is never mentioned again.
The writers should have their WGA cards revoked for this movie.
And was I the only one who laughed when Harry sacrificed himself? I laughed both because it was so predictable, and because the scene was so poorly directed and acted.
Venom should have been created in this movie — Eddie Brock’s presence could have been explained by him following Spiderman around obsessively. Then in the fourth movie, Peter’s life would have been perfect; perhaps preparation for a wedding with MJ, and Venom would have been the shadow of the past stalking him. Perhaps spiderman would have been blamed for some of his crimes.
In this movie, by cutting Venom and cutting or toning down many of the cheesy Peter/MJ, and evil Peter scenes, there could have been more focus on Sandman and Harry Osborne’s development and personality, as well as the effects of the black suit.
The effect of the black suit should have been done more subtly, without the stupid haircut change, but perhaps with more focus on the costume’s supernatural features.
Harry should have established more asa villain persona with a better costume. Eventually he would either have helped Peter because he would have realized that between Peter and his father the first is more trustworthy; or he would have decided to save MJ while continuing to despise Peter; or he would have remained a villain. He shouldn’t have been killed.
Somebody else should have played MJ, and the character should have had a more firey persona.
Sandman should not have been guilty for killing Ben Parker: he should have been the accomplice of the murderer. That’s enough guilt without taking away anything from the origin story.
Better direction of the fight scenes was called for. Spiderman should have kept his mask more often and bantered more. Perhaps this could have been used as a sign of his insentivity toward Sandman.
Well, for me there were only a couple of things I winced at while actually in the cinema. (There were a few more that I shook my head at in hindsight after the movie, but that’s par for the course with me and movies these days…)
The coincidence of Venom dropping from the skies and stalking Peter Parker was clumsy, the ‘Sandman killed your Uncle’ thing felt horribly forced – though the execution of it was handled fairly adroitly – and the whole ‘let’s team up to kill Spider-man’ was just dumb. It would have been so much cooler for Eddie to ‘out’ Peter as Spider-Man…
The butler bit was not too terrible, though it could have done with a bit more set-up throughout the earlier part of the movie, it was still good to see Harry come back to the light side. Hey, sue me, I’m a sucker for redemption stories…
(Hmmm..what are the odds on Harry being ressurected as the hero of a spin-off movie along with his faithful retainer? “Criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot! I must become a giant goblin..!”) Then again, maybe not…
Cheers
Kraven? Please! A competently written Spider-Man should be able to dispatch him with no trouble whatsoever.
Agreed on MJ being very poorly written (not to mention costumed). And that Dunst simply can’t carry her, any more than Berry can do Storm properly. And how long before someone starts connecting the dots and wonder why this woman keeps being kidnapped by Spidey’s major villains? There are at least 8 million people in New York for Criminey’s sake. Isn’t someone going to wonder why it’s always people close to Parker/Spider-man [May/MJ] who get grabbed?
Major UGH! on Marko apparently being the one who killed Peter’s uncle. Such rewriting of a major continuity point just to establish a plot device really reeks.
Gwen Stacy? Utterly wasted.
As some people have remarked, it’s as though there were two directors for this film. Raimi at the top of his form for the supers bits (including the superb ‘birth’ of Sandman), and some mediocre hack for most of the rest of the film. Pacing, editing, characterizations of the filler bits were substandard (I’m being charitable here – I was wishing I was wearing a watch at one point so that I could look at it) and enough with the whiny, shy Parker. He’s been Spider-Man long enough, not to mention years out of high school, that he should have developed more self-confidence. A spine even.
But it wasn’t a terrible film, just a definite letdown after the first two.
And I did love parts of it. Especially when the symbiote caused Parker to finally take the gloves off and really cut loose. Pity they had to then come up with that contrived Jazz club scene to remind him about why he usually does hold back. Seems he doesn’t grasp the idea that there’s a reasonable in-between where he can stand up for himself and not just trash around indiscriminately, or let himself be used as a doormat.
Fuller: Only slightly less silly was Sandman’s origin. He’s running from the cops, he climbs a fence, and, whoops, he runs into a… um… sand… experiment… thingy. One that hasn’t been mentioned before, and is never mentioned again.
Funny, how with movies (comics too) what one person sees as bad element in the story, another sees as something great. The origin of Sandman was one of the things my friend liked best about Sandman–a simply, not over-explained origin.
Personally, I think there is only one thing about this movie that I would complain about. (That’s not to say that I thought the movie was otherwise perfect, but this is the one thing I don’t buy.)
Peter forgives Sandman. Fine; no problem with that, but then he just let’s Sandman go. I mean, he didn’t try and stop him. He would have failed, especially after the beating he just took. But he didn’t even try. Shoot, he didn’t even tell Marco to turn himself in; he just let him go. The guy still killed his uncle, even if it was an accident; he’s still a crook. He still threaten MJ’s life. Spidey may forgive him, but that doesn’t mean he gets a “get out of jail card.”
Anyone know what the deal is with the butler? Plot device aside, it seems that in a multi-million dollar movie they could have gotten an actor that didn’t seem to be reading off of cue cards. Sheesh!
Other than that, I thought it was a fine movie. Coulda been better, but not a bad way to spend $20 and a couple of hours IMHO.
There was one scene where he was yelling “Marko!”.. I could not resist calling back “Polo!” It did get a few laughs.
And the butler.. it was “DUde.. where did Alfred come from?” He just shows up pretty much out of the blue to tell Harry that Peter didn’t kill his dad.
It was a good superhero movie, but it was the worst of the Trilogy. I’d still see it again when it comes on cable.
“It was a good superhero movie, but it was the worst of the Trilogy. I’d still see it again when it comes on cable.”
you summed it up nicely for me.
“Kraven? Please! A competently written Spider-Man should be able to dispatch him with no trouble whatsoever.”
And a competently written Kraven could give Spider-Man some serious trouble. Any character, if well written, could give him trouble.
Kraven’s one of my favorite Silver Age villains, because unlike just about every other villain of that era, he’s not after monetary wealth or world domination. He just wants to hunt.
And plus he was featured in my absolute favorite Spider-Man story ever, Kraven’s Last Hunt. Heck, they could just film that story and have a great movie on their hands.
Personally, it was my favorite of the three. I thought the various stories interwove very nicely, on a narrative and thematic level. The four-way fight at the end was enough to justify it even lacking everything else. Peter and MJ were both acting badly (Peter moreso, in my opinion), and I though Kirsten Dunst was at her peak. I do wish they hadn’t done girl hostage over again (they did that last movie!), but the fight was still well worth it. And I very much liked that she did actually take action to save her own life, rather than simply relying on the boys.
As for the church scene: I’ve consistently heard people asking how Spidey got to the church, and why Brock was there. Well, at the start of the jazz bar scene, we see Brock skulking after Peter. So he was there to catch the dance and see Peter leave afterwards. When Peter does leave, he’s feeling awful, hears bells, looks up, sees the cathedral. The camera pans up, zooms in, cuts to a closer image, Spidey is there. That’s pretty clear. Then, later, we see Brock walking into the church. Since the film had already established that he was there, it’s pretty easy to assume that he lost Peter and simply got the idea to go into the church. Bit of a coincidence, but not a huge one, since it does actually make sense.
A couple of leaps to take, there, but since I’m sick of Hollywood movies that spell everything out, I’m not at all complaining. =)
Plus with the fur stole, slippers, and leopard spandex, Kraven had that Freddie-Mercury-style menace going for him.
I thought Sam Raimi proved, with the Evil Dead trilogy and Darkman that, while he’s a wonderfully creative director, he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a script.
Venom from a random meteorite. Harry waking up in a soap opera hospital with a properly placed head-bandage. Peter strutting down the street like he was Bruce, the almighty.
If the symbiote needs to come from space then have it come down in a shuttle with John Jameson. They introduced him in part 2, why not use him. Plus, you could open with a big scene of Spidey preventing the shuttle from crashing into a city. Immediately after which, the suit is drawn to Peter’s powers and latches on to him. Get this going early so you have time to play with the corruption.
Anyway, John Jameson’s being held responsible for the potential crash, so JJJ’s on a major tyrade. Harry nearly kills Peter near the beginning with his new Goblin suit. And Eddie Brock, a yuppie paparazzi, is wedging his way into Peter’s job.
Then come the attacks. Several times, Spidey’s lured into traps and assaulted by a group calling themselves the Enforcers. Replace the comic Enforcers with some better known villains: Sandman, Electro, Vulture, Chameleon, etc. Pick three. Don’t get too deep into their origins or motivations. They’re just a group of hired thugs constantly attacking Spider-Man.
I suggest the Enforcers because you could do the whole “Who’s the Big Man?” story. Is it Harry? Is it JJJ? Neither, of course, it’s Brock!
Anyway, with the suit, start the corruption early and subtley. No strutting, no italian suits, no abusing Ursula’s cookie-baking abilities. Just start a slow, gradual submission to agression and paranoia. By the middle of the film, he drives MJ away and she goes to Harry. And it’s her, not the poorly acted butler, that convinces Harry to let his quest for vengeance go. “Think about it, Harry. That’s just not Peter.”
At the end of his corruption, Peter learns from Dr. Connors what the suit is and that it’s succeptable to loud noises. After lashing out at Aunt May, Peter starts fighting. Seeing the bell tower, he drags himself in, against the power of the suit, and sheds it before the clanging bells. The suit slithers away into a dark corner to heal and Peter passes out. He comes to, but can’t find the suit.
The final battle begins, where the Big Man is revealed as Brock, Harry shows up to help, and JJJ is caught in the middle (subplot about him personally investigating Big Man which, of course, makes him look guilty).
At the end, MJ is with Harry (setup for Gwen in part 4), Dr. Connors testifies about the symbiote at John Jameson’s trial, and Brock, broken and humiliated, sulks in an empty church. The same church. And, as he starts to rant about Peter Parker, the symbiote draws near. It leaps on him. CUT TO BLACK. The end. Save Venom for 4.
Whew. Sorry to go on and on like that, but I’ve just been thinking about this a lot lately and this seemed like a decent place to vent.
When I got out of SM3, I though tit was thoroughly mediocre. The more I think about it, the more I think I was being generous.
Overall, the movie was weak. There were too many storylines happening (Sandman is tortured but bad! Peter’s a dìçk — and after the symbiote, an uber-dìçk! Harry’s evil, no he’s good, no he’s evil! Venom is, um, there! Mary Jane was an star actress the last movie, but she’s kicked down to waitressing after one bad roll this time around!)
The low point was the butler explaining how he’s 1) been an accessory after the fact to murder and kidnapping, and 2) sure the Green Goblin’s death was an accident — even though the New Goblin dies *exactly* the way the butler says couldn’t have happened.
I left feeling let down, and the news that they’re planning three more movies only fills me with dread of what else they’ll do wrong. (Then again, it’s fun to speculate who they’ll get to play the Black Cat!)
I think you’re dead on with the Jameson/Suit connection, though I’m not crazy for the Enforcers/Big Man stuff.
I actually just assumed (and I thought I read it somewhere) that the suit would come down with Jameson so when it just landed with some random rock I sat jaw-dropped stunned for several minutes. Then I shook my head in disbelief and confusion. Then I dumped the bucket of popcorn on the person in front of me and my head exploded on the side wall of the theater.
What was the scene where Parker was talking with Conners about the sample…something about it resembling something from the past that was brought back to Earth? I didn’t catch what he was saying but I think he was hinting at what it was?
Finally saw it this afternoon. Pretty good. Not as good as the second, but the second was so good, it would’ve been too hard to top it, so I was just glad that this one was good as it was. Someone mentioned that one of them was Flash Thompson. Flash got into the same college chemistry class as Peter???
The 2 or 3 jerks in Peter’s class who pick on him seemed a bit out of place. Is this college, or high school? One was odd enough. What was with two or three of them? And what did this have to do with anything?
Okay, so why is that demolecularizer laying out in the middle of an open grassy field with just a dinky fence around it to keep out people who might venture or fall into it? One of the scientists thinks it’s a bird. Can they not tell the difference between a bird and a human being? If their instruments can’t tell the difference, then doesn’t this illustrate the need to have such a device indoors?
Why didn’t Spidey’s spider sense warn him of Harry’s first attack on him?
Definitely didn’t like that retarded fold-up mask that Harry had, for the same reason I didn’t like it on the cast members in the Lost in Space movie: Where does it go? There are no folded-up components of it behind his head, nowhere on his costume where it seems it could go.
So Kirsten Dunst died her blonde hair red to play MJ, and now Bryce Dallas Howard—a natural redhead—had to dye her hair blonde to play Gwen? Why didn’t the just switch roles? (:)) Btw, does anyone think Elisha Cuthbert would’ve made a beautiful Gwen?
I didn’t care for the sound effects of the I-beam and the crane crashing into the building. It didn’t seem layered, or deep enough for such a large sound.
Brock tells Jameson that he hired him last week. And Robbie and Pete point out that Pete’s been there for “years”. That and the fact that Flint Marko has been in prison for “6 years” means that this movie doesn’t take place in rapid sequence right after the first and second ones. But Brock was mentioned in the first movie.
Wow, that maitre d’ sure looks familiar! He be one of triplets, and his brothers work as the usher at the theater in Spider-Man 2, and the wrestling announcer in Spider-Man. But even if that’s true, how can one of them be French? Was he raised in France apart from his two brothers? Or is he just some pretentious snob from Queens? 🙂
If the symbiote formed itself into Peter’s new costume where did he get a sample of it still in goo-form to show Connors?
Why does Peter tells Aunt May that Spider-Man killed Sandman? What makes him think that if a guy can exist as sand—at times with its particles dissipated into a sandstorm—that watering him down into mud will “kill” him?
When Norman appears to Harry and asks if he remembers, Harry says, “Yes, Father. I remember.” Did Harry really address his father like that, and not with simply “Dad”?
After the amnesia-cured Harry threatens MJ, she calls Peter and asks him to meet her “at the bridge in the park.” Which park? And for that matter, which bridge? Central Park has a slew of ‘em.
Okay, so why didn’t MJ just tell Pete that Harry threatened her, even after their meeting in the park? Was she ever planning on telling him?
Spider-Man’s spider sense allows him to sense diffuse threats on the general order of hours, or even things that could potentially be a threat to him, but again, it doesn’t go off during his meeting with Harry in the diner.
When the church bells go off, Eddie enters the bell tower and looks up. An upshot shows us what he sees from the bottom floor, and it’s clear that he’s way too far away to see anyone in the belfry. But in the next shot of Eddie, he says, “Parker!”
The fx of Venom and his mouth? AWESOME!!!!!!!
Venom versus Sandman? Good. But waaaaaaay too short. I know it wasn’t the point of the scene, but I would’ve liked to have seen it extended just a tad, and in something other than just shadows on the wall, just because it was such a cool face-off.
Venom taunts Sandman with his knowledge that Sandman needs money for Penny. How did Venom find this out? Peter didn’t have that knowledge, so it’s not like he got it from the symbiote.
After Harry arrives on the scene, he and Spidey have a heart-to-heart for a moment. Um, guys? MJ, ya know? She’s still up there in that web? Hello? Guys?
Once that giant sandman appears, the authorities should do two things: First, they should evacuate everyone since they now know that this guy is huge. Second, they should be able to figure out that water would be a weapon against him, and have brought in the fire department.
Peter’s reaction to Harry’s impalement seemed rather sedate.
The novel touched upon this point: The revelation about what happened between Marko and Ben Parker would’ve likely happened with or without Peter’s intervention with Carradine at the wrestling arena, and removes the ongoing guilt he feels, which served as the basis for Spider-Man’s creation. Even if the gun going off was some type accident caused by Carradine distracting Marko, wouldn’t such an event have occurred without Carradine?
A writer actually on top of his continuity these days? The mind boggles….
So far, to me, it just seems to be PAD and Dan Slot are the only ones who are.
Things I liked:
-Most of the casting. Thomas Hayden Church was born to play Sandman and Topher Grace was a great choice to play an Anti-Peter. Of course, I’d watch Bryce Dallas Howard read a phone book, so I have no complaints about her as Gwen.
-The special effects.
-The fact that Evil Peter is still a dork. The symbiote may have brought out his dark side, but it couldn’t give him style.
-I seem to be one of the few people who actually liked the jazz club scene.
Things I didn’t like
-For a character who supposedly is the most protective of his secret identity in the whole of the Marvel Universe, and who, as a photographer, has to have some clue just how many cameras and camera-phones there are in the Big Apple, he spends a hëll of a lot of time with his mask off, even when there’s a whole plaza full of people below, just waiting to catch a glimpse of him. Which leads to…
-Peter, in the middle of a crowded restaurant: “Yeah, that’s nice MJ, but the other day, when I was swinging around as Spider-man, because, y’know, I, Peter Parker, am Spider-man…”
-Butler: “Peter, who is Spider-Man, didn’t kill your dad, Harry.”
Harry: “Gee, Jeeves, that would’ve been nice to know a couple of years ago, before I pumped myself full of psycho-juice, tried to kill my best friend, fell five stories onto my head, and had half my face melted off.”
-My voice is but one in the chorus that thinks all the pieces were there for two good movies, but it sadly ended up being only one half-assed movie. I suspect Scott Kurtz of PVP Online may have been more right than even he suspected when he said that it looked like Raimi wanted a Sandman movie and the studio wanted a Venom movie.
-*Sigh* Yes, Spider-Man loves America. We get it already. The gratuitous flag-wáņkìņg was forgiveable in the first one, so soon after 9/11, but you aren’t going to get blacklisted for not giving enough screen time to Old Glory in your superhero movie. He’s not Captain America or Superman, so give it a rest.
-Maybe I’ve just become a big softie in the last couple of years, but I wanted some sort of happy ending for Penny Marko, or at least something better than a big fat dangling plot thread.
-Mary Jane, who knows squat about evil symbiotes, seems all too eager to run back into the arms of the man who about took her head off. Which also reminds me. Peter (who has to hold back considerably to keep from killing muggers and such), in a rage, backhands MJ, and there is not so much as a bruise to be seen? Maybe Mary Jane should be out patrolling the streets.
-Rex Hondo-
Posted by: NoelCT at May 12, 2007 11:49 PM
“Whew. Sorry to go on and on like that, but I’ve just been thinking about this a lot lately and this seemed like a decent place to vent.”
I really like your ideas. Especialy with Jameson. It solves one of the problems with this movie, the flow of the plot. The plot felt like it was written by the same guy who shot the fight scenes.
It seems many people have in their minds good udeas for a fourth movie with Venom. Alas, we’ll never have that movie.
I’m not sure Brock should be the ‘Big Man’. How about Kingpin? No need for much explanation. He’s a criminal mastermind. He doesn’t like Spiderman. Also he’s not usually fighting himself, so it leaves the cool fight scenes for Goblin and Sandman and potential others.
I’m not sure about the enforcers idea. The best thing in this movie was Sandman, and I’d like to keep him the way he was more or less. I didn’t have a problem with the way he was created. Perhaps if they hooked him early on with a corrupting influence like Kigpin or Harry Osborne that would have worked out.
Should Harry have adopted the personna of Hobgoblin? I just don’t think they are going to use the original character, since two gliding villeins are enough for a movie franchise.
Havin Sandman be the real killer of uncle ben is just plain wrong and lazy writing.
Sure it helps make the forgiveness theme more powerful for THIS movie . . .but it muddles the clear and classic origin for the overall movie universe.
WHile Peter is still responsible – it’s more indirect. It lessens one of his most important character traits and that’s his GUILT over letting the thief go that later murders his uncle. . . not letting the thief go that later runs by another man, who is then startled and who then accidentally shoots his uncle.
They sacrificed a pillar trait of the main character to advance a subplot of a one movie villain?
Wrong!
I read the end scene in PAD’S novelization and thought that maybe a comic book writer over Hollywood writers would insert some text about how Peter is still responsible, etc . .. but no, it seems that the script was even MORE ambiguous as to why the gun went off.
I LOVED the movie otherwise and don’t share many of the other gripes. I don’t think it was too rushed or the Batman & Robin of the trilogy. Sure, I’d have loved more development of Sandman and/or Venom – but I could’ve lived with everything done EXCEPT the tinkering with Uncle Ben’s death. It should ALWAYS be the thief Peter let get away. That maximizes the guilt and Power/Responsibility bedrock.
Huge misstep in my opinion on Raimi’s part and I’m shocked that with umpteen writers having their hands in the script no one saw this as taking away from SPidey’s origin.
THis is NOT a fanboy whining over straying from comic book roots and continuity. Not at all – they do that all the time in movies. It’s about negatively changing a cornerstone of the character’s motivations.
PAD – any thoughts? Did this bother you or jump out as wrong when you had to do the novelization?
. . . or will Sony dispatch assasins if you critique Spidey : )
Actually, I still havent seen it.
I have read the novelization (good book Peter!) and seen the trailers and read the reviews.
I call Spidey 3 a “BUT” movie—-
example….
“It was great, BUT…..”
“Spider-Man 3 rocked, dude! BUT…..”
Well, you get the picture….so, I’ll wait for the DVD.
From what I’ve heard one of the producers…
Mr Avi Arad (who I still respect mostly) kind of
forced Raimi to INCLUDE Venom into this one (instead of maybe waiting for part 4 and give the character it’s due.)Its rumored that he really thought since the fans LOVED Venom that it should be included into this film.
And while thats a good idea in and of itself I dont think THIS film was the best place to insert such a character.
I have also read about Venom’s origin and I agree….it is a bit co-incidental that the meteorite would JUST HAPPEN to land near Peter Parker….
If ANYTHING—yeah, okay it could STILL land in New York, but as we cut back and forth to maybe wrapping up the Harry/Goblin story arc and Parker worried about all the crap you have to go thru to get married (maybe have him really try to take more spectacular pics for Jameson in order to get on staff at the paper which would make MJ mad at him for risking his life more then he usually does just being Spider-man….)
So, okay, while we juggle those couple of plot lines we show Venom attach itself to a normal Joe Blow on the street and Venom tries out this new body but its clumsy and hard to handle so then Venom jumps to a woman and THATS even clumsier….too difficult to control and in the end, too boring. (After all Venom has been around the galaxy persumably- it wants something ….Amazing.)
So then while Spidey is out chasing the better photos, say, a fire perhaps, Venom (as one of the normal humans earlier in the film) would be IN the gathering crowd at ground level watching Spidey in action.
Naturally this would make Venom quite curious.
And once Venom decides to attach itself TO Parker it would hunt him down and find him and THEN we start the second half of the film.
So, Parker acts funny during the wedding and viciously attacks Harry during a fight and Parker grows concerned and tries to figure a way to get rid of this thing before it kills somebody.
Thats more then enough to fill two hours. (Let alone two and a HALF hours.)
Oh well, its over and done and part of film history and maybe parts 4, 5 and 6 will learn from this and get Spidey back on track.
Meantime I am waiting for Rise of the Silver Surfer.
It looks like a much more fun Superhero film.
Should be great too if they don’t screw up the ending. (I’ve already read the book)
So anyway. Peter, thanks for the opprotunity for us all to have a forum for us to talk this out.
I think the film will still hit it’s expected 300 million domestic mark but I dont think it will make the top ten as they hope.
(They should have watched some of the latter Batman films…too many villians. Just throwing stuff into a film JUST to make money on the toys is never a good idea. It works well as an accident (Star Wars) but to just do it for greed, well, this is what happens.)
Oh well….maybe Spider-Man 4 will get my 9 bucks.
Oh, one other little thing.
How come this thing cost 280 million to make?
Pirates 3 (coming out memorial day weekend) only cost 200 million and LOOK at the trailer!! That film looks great!
Pirates 3 LOOKS like it cost 280 million when they actually made it for 80 million LESS then Spider-Man 3.
If anything it looks more creative with much bigger FX….and from what I’ve read so far the story is good as well.
maybe its just me….
Superman Returns cost alot as well and it took months to put the initial cost of 200 million in the bank.(and we’ll never really know just how much money that was made for)
But it also placed FX over story, which of course, almost never really works.
1
My first instinct during and after the movie was: “If Peter Parker simply TALKED to people, his life would be less screwed up and this movie would’ve been half as long!” To see him stand or sit there with a goofy smirk on his face while someone’s bearing their soul to him just annoyed me to no end.
I don’t recall Peter being this much of a passive conversationalist in comics either, if anything Peter rarely shuts up!
“Posted by: Frank at May 13, 2007 10:49 AM
“From what I’ve heard one of the producers…
Mr Avi Arad (who I still respect mostly) kind of
forced Raimi to INCLUDE Venom into this one (instead of maybe waiting for part 4 and give the character it’s due.)Its rumored that he really thought since the fans LOVED Venom that it should be included into this film.
And while thats a good idea in and of itself I dont think THIS film was the best place to insert such a character.”
The problem is that in order to have venom you must have the black suit, which ia story in and of itself.
In this movie Spiderman had to deal with 6 villains: Sandman, Harry Osborne, Venom, the Black Suit, himself, and Mary Jane. That’s too much.
If they wanted Venom they should have cut either Harry or Sandman (preferably Sandman, since less introduction is required) and toned down some of the soap opera stuff. And even then it would have been difficult.
The black sunstance should then have been the primary villein of the story from stage one, perhaps along lines similar to what you have suggested.
Micha wrote: “I’m not sure Brock should be the ‘Big Man’. How about Kingpin?”
I thought of this initially. It would be a great reveal from out of nowhere. And then you could have a team-up with Daredevil, with Matt Murdock also showing up at the end to get John Jameson off the hook. The problem is that the Spider-Man and Daredevil films are owned by two different studios so it’d most likely never happen.
Micha wrote: “The best thing in this movie was Sandman, and I’d like to keep him the way he was more or less. I didn’t have a problem with the way he was created. Perhaps if they hooked him early on with a corrupting influence like Kigpin or Harry Osborne that would have worked out.”
I though Sandman was great, as well. Chuch uncannily looked the part, and the “re-birth” scene was gorgeous. The problem is that his entire story is unnecessary. You could argue that he taught Peter not to seek vengeance, but that’s pretty much what the Harry thread is about. Or, you could argue that Sandman represents taking responsibily for one’s actions, but the fall of Brock does this just as well.
My other problem was with his powers. By allowing him to absorb more Sand and making him into “Godzilla, the beach!” you give him too much power (yet Harry still takes him down with 2 small missiles?!). I prefer the early comics where he’s a set volume of Sand that can contract or expand as the situation requires.
In the end, Sandman was a great story, but one that you could easily trim from an overlong movie without really losing anything.
What did everyone think of the Harry arc, overall? Other than the amnesia and butler, it was the strongest story in the movie. From his gradual submission to insanity, to being mutilated by Peter, to his eventual redemption, I thought it was wonderfully handled with some fine acting.
The make-up of his scarring, though, it look a bit healed. Shouldn’t there still be some scabs or stitches or something? I know the goblin gas helps him heal quickly, but that’s pretty dámņ fast.
And his death, while nicely handled, should have been saved for later. Imagine, in part 4, how great it would be if the Goblin still killed Gwen Stacy even though he’s now good. That would provide some nice drama.
Micha: In this movie Spiderman had to deal with 6 villains: Sandman, Harry Osborne, Venom, the Black Suit, himself, and Mary Jane. That’s too much.
Luigi Novi: That’s stretching things. Dealing with his own inner demons is not a “villain”. Nor is MJ. (How exactly is MJ a “villain”?) Nor are the black suit and Venom two separate villains. They’re essentially one and the same.
I liked it. I’m just amazed films move.
(C’mon now, I’m not the only one who has waited his whole life to see Gwen Stacy, hairband and all, in real life!)
Okay, so why is that demolecularizer laying out in the middle of an open grassy field with just a dinky fence around it to keep out people who might venture or fall into it? One of the scientists thinks it’s a bird. Can they not tell the difference between a bird and a human being? If their instruments can’t tell the difference, then doesn’t this illustrate the need to have such a device indoors?
Well, maybe this is why the Marvel Universe is chock full of superheroes and villains while our sorry world isn’t. Too many dámņ rules and warnings
Wow, that maitre d’ sure looks familiar! He be one of triplets, and his brothers work as the usher at the theater in Spider-Man 2, and the wrestling announcer in Spider-Man. But even if that’s true, how can one of them be French? Was he raised in France apart from his two brothers? Or is he just some pretentious snob from Queens? 🙂
Simple: he’s the Chameleon. Or Mysterio.
-The fact that Evil Peter is still a dork. The symbiote may have brought out his dark side, but it couldn’t give him style.
That’s an interesting point, Rex. I’ll have to watch it again with that in mind.
I suspect Scott Kurtz of PVP Online may have been more right than even he suspected when he said that it looked like Raimi wanted a Sandman movie and the studio wanted a Venom movie.
That seems to be a popular view. I’m a bit surprised at this point that Raimi doesn’t have a lot more clout.
BTW, anyone who was worried about Spidey 3 second week grosses can relax–even with the typical 60% drop that mega-blockbusters typically get these days, its total cume after only 10 days is…$622 million worldwide!
That $200 million plus budget is looking like a bargain (although Frank has a point–where DID the money go? I would think at this point that CGI has gotten cheaper as more artists become good at it.)
(then again, I’ll bet the cost of just the cast must be pretty high, one reason why the next spiderman movie may well have some new faces)
I’m sure Micha meant an antagonist and used villian interchangeably, and, in context with a superhero movie it’s not that far off.
In the movie he had conflicts, physical and mental with Harry/New Goblin, Eddie Brock/Venom, Himself (revenge themes, guilt, relationship struggles), MJ (always yelling at him, breaking up with him, it fits), Sandman, The Suit itself (both an inner struggle to wear it and an outer struggle to take it off). Villians, Antagonists, Major Inner Struggles–this movie had AT least a half dozen.
Under this director none of them would have been strong enough to carry a whole movie, yet the sheer number of them were almost enough to ruin the movie itself. Somehow, as I keep saying, it remained entertaining.
As with most people I thought there was far too much plot to fit into the one movie. The pacing was rushed – especially in the first half. Felt exactly like Harry Potter Goblet of Fire in that regard.
On the way home my partner and I were discussing the various strengths and weaknesses and the idea came up that if they really wanted to shake things up:
Spider-Man 4 – written and directed by Quentin Tarantino
Now that would kick butt!
Okay, there’s one curious thing about Spider-Man 3 that seems to have gone under everyone’s radar.
In practically every superhero movie, everything builds up to the obvious climax of The Big Battle. Once Doctor Doom is melted/frozen into a statue, everything is saved. Once the Incredibles stop the Omnidroid, with a followup foiling of Syndrome kidnapping Jack-Jack, it’s a happy ending.
In this film, the big battle occurs but it doesn’t resolve much. Stopping Venom is good, but Sandman – potentially the biggest threat – just walks away, and Harry’s death doesn’t make the world safer. In fact, the final dance with Mary Jane seems pretty uncertain, as befits Peter Parker’s normal life. They didn’t even have the “pretend triumph” of the other films, with Spidey swinging through Manhattan.
Maybe this is because this is the end of the trilogy, and there’s a good chance that the director and star will be different for the following Spidey films, they wanted a kind of downbeat coda, a farewell to the fan support and all that freaking money.
By the way, I liked the ending with Sandman. As a character from a film noir Blind Alley story, someone abused by God from birth and doomed to a terrible end, it was appropriate that Spidey stopped beating on him and let him try to find his way to redemption. (One question: since I don’t follow the Marvel Universe fanatically, is Sandman still trying to help out heroes or has he gone back to lame villainy and being a punching bag for villains?)
Yes Czar, that’s what I meant.
“Under this director none of them would have been strong enough to carry a whole movie, yet the sheer number of them were almost enough to ruin the movie itself.”
The problem was that there were too many story arcs and most of them didn’t get developed sufficiently and in a way where they all could fit together nicely. It felt very patchy.
“I though Sandman was great, as well. Chuch uncannily looked the part, and the “re-birth” scene was gorgeous. The problem is that his entire story is unnecessary.”
I’m not well versed in Spiderman villains. It seemed to me that if they trimmed the charcter development of Sandman and left him as just a super villain they would have lost what made his part of the movie good. Most of the other story arcs suffered because they were underdeveloped, or so it seemed to me.
“What did everyone think of the Harry arc, overall? Other than the amnesia and butler, it was the strongest story in the movie.”
I liked James Franco’s performance very much. With the exception of Kirsten Dunst, most of the actors did a very good job. The lesson for the kinds, don’t do drugs.
But I didn’t like Harry’s arc. It felt rushed to me.
At he end of the first movie he found out that his father had a secret identity and developed a hatred for Spiderman.
In the second movie he played a peripheral role, found out that Spiderman is Peter but didn’t do anything. And in the third movie he very quickly:
gained superpowers
attacked Peter and lost
lost his memory
became friendly with Peter
made moves on MJ
regained his memory
came up with a devious plan that seemed more in place in a soap opera than a superhero movie
fought Peter again and gained a bad guy’s scarred face
redeamed himself
died to redeem his/his father’s/Peter’s sins.
And all this he did while sharing this movie with several other story arcs + two or three stupid and unnecessary scenes.
I personaly feel this character was cheated out of decent development, especially considering all the buildup in the previos two movies.
In the two previous movies they were able to develop the villains well. You’d think it would be easy with Harry, since he was already established. But it still felt rushed and unfocused to me.
I did enjoy the movie. But it will be on my list of movies that were supposed to be good but somehow didn’t work exactly right despite everybody’s good intentions.
“Nor are the black suit and Venom two separate villains. They’re essentially one and the same.”
I don’t think so. They are from the same substance, but the story of the suit affecting Peter and the story of the suit affecting Brock are two distinct stories, which was why it would have probably been better to have seperate movies for each. Although, I must admit I was looking forward to seeing Venom in this movie. But I could have waited, and the way he was handled in this movie made him very bland. He just popped up at the last part of the movie, kidnapped MJ and died. He had no time to be established as a menacing character too.
Regarding the budget, my wife heard somewhere that basically there are only a few special effect houses, and they get logjammed for the summer releases. Thus, more in demand means more money. So the effects may be less expensive for, say, ILM, but actually raise for the studio buying them. That actually makes some sense.
re: “Micha: In this movie Spiderman had to deal with 6 villains: Sandman, Harry Osborne, Venom, the Black Suit, himself, and Mary Jane. That’s too much.
Luigi Novi: That’s stretching things. Dealing with his own inner demons is not a “villain”. Nor is MJ. (How exactly is MJ a “villain”?) Nor are the black suit and Venom two separate villains. They’re essentially one and the same.”
How about antagonist? I’d definitely count Sandman, Harry, Venom/suit, Brock (he was a villain before he was Venom). Inner demons are definitely antagonists. In fact, in this movie, it is the primary antagonist. I wouldn’t count MJ, though. he wasn’t fighting against her in any real sense.