I emphasize that the following is not an attempt to politicize a tragedy, but merely an observation about human nature based on some pretty indisputable facts.
Right now this country is reeling, trying to make sense of the senseless deaths of thirty-two innocent people who died due to the actions of a single obsessed, unhinged individual. We call this a national tragedy.
In Iraq, it’s called a Monday. Day after day after day, the populace of that wartorn country has to deal with losses as calamitous and pointless.
Now…what typically happens in a tragedy such as this? Well, in America, sooner or later, the search for blame begins. It’s human nature. You can’t blame the perp: He’s dead. So we search for someone still alive to vent our spleens upon. Someone to whom we can say, “If it weren’t for you, then this wouldn’t have happened.” When the Twin Towers fell, that blame played out in Senate hearings. The blame for Virginia Tech will inevitably play out as well, with leading candidates for excoriation being (a) the school, (b) the shooter’s parents, (c) anyone who advocates easy and legal access to guns.
With all that as a given, doesn’t it make sense that the Iraqis, being as human as us, would be looking for someone to blame for an environment where our aberration is their way of life? Who are they going to target? Saddam? He’s dead. Bombers? They’re usually dead after the attack as well. Who’s left?
Us.
And that anger manifests itself in the only way it can: More violence against those whom they feel were responsible.
Which is why anyone who thinks that there’s going to be an end in the cycle of violence against Americans in Iraq is betting against human nature itself. The blame will continue. The anger will continue. And the deaths will continue. We will try to expunge our sense of dismay and go back to a state of normalcy. For Iraq, death, anger, blame and revenge IS the state of normalcy.
That’s why they hate us.
In case you were wondering.
PAD
• 
(cue scary music)
Hello…..
dan….
Waiting………
Posted by: Jerry Chandler at April 25, 2007 10:08 PM
If some of the guys on here that I like and/or respect (Bill, Bill, Sean, Micha, Lynch, Ries or Weber being in the top of the list) see me getting a wee bit too harsh or nasty with some nutball, point out that I may need to take a breather and reign it in a bit.
Jerry, you know, or at least you should know, that if I thought you were going overboard I’d speak up. But dan is talking smack and I think your responses have been appropriate.
Yeah, but I still wanted to play it on the safer side right now. Lots of stuff hitting at once and it’s causing less sleep then normal and a wee bit of the crankies.
Pregnancy
Problems with Jenn’s Grandfather
A new Chief at the department and the changes that entails
Getting ready for the Queen’s visit
Dealing with other VIP issues
Shedding season for the cats and thus hairball landmine in the dark season is back
Summer means having to mow the lawn every five days again
I could’a had a V-8
Those types of things hit all at once, I get tetchy and I just wanna make sure that I don’t unfairly take it out on others.
To Jerry (the coincidence theorist who calls other people “idiot”)…
See, you STILL don’t get it.
Can YOU prove Bush had nothing to do with 9/11? Can YOU prove no one in the U.S. government had anything to do with 9/11? Can YOU prove that the official explanations are actually inarguable fact? No, you cannot. You merely accept what your media and your government have told you.
Why should “they” (Middle-East Muslims/Arabs, etc) believe ANY of it?
While you’re wasting time mulling *my* credibility, the ONLY credibility that matters is that of the U.S. government in the eyes of those we are killing every day. (PAD’s topic is why they hate us, not your view of conspiracy theories.)
Until you can prove to THEM that they should believe the Bush Admin’s explanations–about Iraq, about 9/11, about anything–they are going to give themselves the benefit of the doubt.
The Iraqi’s aren’t buying what Bush is selling. They don’t believe that a Bush-installed “democracy” will serve THEM. And much of it comes back to the credibility of this White House, which is utterly bankrupt in its character.
When you can focus on that, instead of me, then this discussion can continue.
P.S… I find it hilarious that I am regarded as a “conspiracy theorist” when there is NO explanation of 9/11–official or otherwise–that ISN’T a conspiracy theory!
They’re ALL conspiracy theories, folks.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
To Jerry (the coincidence theorist who calls other people “idiot”)…
“Coincidence theorist?” He is not “theorizing” any “coincidences,” but merely pointing out that you haven’t proven your case.
And he doesn’t call “other people ‘idiot.'” Merely specific people, like you. Since you richly deserve the label, I don’t see a problem.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
Can YOU prove Bush had nothing to do with 9/11? Can YOU prove no one in the U.S. government had anything to do with 9/11?
Wow. You wouldn’t know logic if it bit you right in the ášš, would you?
I cannot disprove that you are a Martian. Does that mean you are from Mars?
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
Can YOU prove that the official explanations are actually inarguable fact? No, you cannot. You merely accept what your media and your government have told you.
Are you illiterate? Seriously, are you illiterate? Because in the “Democrats Earn Points for Snarkiness” thread, Jerry has stated over and over that he DOESN’T believe the Bush administration’s rationale for war in Iraq. Just because he sees through your nonsense doesn’t believe he has blind faith in this or any other administration.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
While you’re wasting time mulling *my* credibility, the ONLY credibility that matters is that of the U.S. government in the eyes of those we are killing every day. (PAD’s topic is why they hate us, not your view of conspiracy theories.)
You brought up your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories, and made them fair game for discussion. Peter allows fairly wide latitude in these threads, and throwing a little tantrum isn’t going to change that.
And yeah, a lot of people in the Arab world buy into these tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories. That doesn’t lend them any validity.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
Until you can prove to THEM that they should believe the Bush Admin’s explanations–about Iraq, about 9/11, about anything–they are going to give themselves the benefit of the doubt.
While it is “politically incorrect” to say this, the fact remains that until the “Arab street” stops believing the propaganda they’re being handed about the U.S. and acknowledges that they and their governments are the architects of many of their own problems, their societies will remain at horse latitudes. They can give themselves the benefit of the doubt but again that doesn’t lend the tinfoil-hat crap any validity.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
The Iraqi’s aren’t buying what Bush is selling. They don’t believe that a Bush-installed “democracy” will serve THEM. And much of it comes back to the credibility of this White House, which is utterly bankrupt in its character.
Jerry’s already made that point, and far more eloquently than did you.
Posted by: dan at April 28, 2007 10:19 PM
When you can focus on that, instead of me, then this discussion can continue.
Dear Lord, do you think ANYONE is on the edge of their seat wanting to converse with you? I know I plan to make this my last post to you. You’re a blithering idiot and not worth my time.
“You don’t think Bush was behind 9/11. You don’t think OBL was behind 9/11. You don’t think that it’s been proven that they were Al Qaida or even Muslims. You seem to think that evrything that’s official about 9/11 is just another Bush lie. You seem to think that we’re in some way wrong in our belief of what went down that day and since then.”
Just for clarification…
(1) “The government” doesn’t exist as a single entity. It’s a body of individuals. Any one (or three) of them can lie or commit a crime.
(2) History is chock full of politicians who have sought and exercised political power for selfish (to put it mildly) reasons.
(3) The CIA has had its own “cells” of political extremists. The military too. Is there anything an extremist wouldn’t do for his country (“country” having sometimes curious definitions)? One need only study the Kennedy presidency, particularly the various plans to oust Castro, to have one’s innocence shattered on that score.
So I don’t take ANY official explanation on its face.
If it is acceptable to sacrifice 3000 American lives on Iraqi soil, it is equally acceptable to sacrifice them on American soil. It’s all for the glory and/or “defense” of America, right? (And why should we quibble over the clothes our sacrifices wear? Why is wearing a business suit less patriotic than wearing fatigues? And why should civilians risk less than soldiers? Some of those civilians will be anti-American tree-hugging liberals anyway, so all the better.)
I think of the quarter-million Confederate soldiers who were conned into fighting to preserve slavery, an institution that served a mere 10% of the southern population. What kind of person sacrifices all those good previously-civilian lives just so they don’t have to hire wage-labor? The Confederacy was totally convinced those deaths were justified for “the cause.”
Those who hold power don’t think like common folks. Commoners are not equals. They’re expendable. Fodder for whatever goals the powerful seek. It has ever been thus. We shouldn’t let the masquerade of American democracy and the so-called free market blind us.
America fed 50,000 lives into the Vietnam war machine, and it too was all based on lies, deceptions (including self-delusions about “-isms”), and self-interest of the powerful.
And how long did it take for the public to learn that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a big, fat lie…?
The above post was posted incomplete. It doesn’t tie it all in to Jerry’s questions.
I will tie it in this way…
The above is a glimpse into the reasons I seek my own explanations and understandings. I use my own judgment to weigh the value of the many pieces of evidence.
I find it peculiar that both sides of the political spectrum rush to seek a connection between a politician’s position on an issue and who contributes to his campaign (which is its own theory of conspiracy), but halt that logic when it comes to the greatest stakes of all.
War is the biggest business there is.
And both Bush and Cheney are intertwined with the very people who are making a KILLING over the Iraq war and the so-called war on terror. So why is it difficult to suspect that those who profit from war would manufacture the the war itself? Cheney’s NeoCon buddies specifically said they needed 9/11 to create the public acceptance of an invasion of Iraq. (That is NOT mere conspiracy. I read it on the PNAC website myself.)
I see PNAC’s writings as their Mein Kampf. They said what they wanted and what it took to get it. And then it all happened to a “T.” I think only the simple-minded could see all that and then believe 9/11 was just lucky on their part.
(Yes, I still say I’m not convinced Bush planned or took part in the attacks. He wasn’t necessary, and he’s really only a stooge anyway. His desire to attack Iraq was already well known, so it was a “slam dunk” that he would respond as he did. But the coverup, well, Bush has had a solid hand in THAT.)
So I don’t take ANY official explanation on its face.
No, you just take monuments to conspiracy moon-battyness at it’s face.
You keep throwing around slogans and talking points, but you’ve yet to give one fact. No, I’m sorry, you did try to give one with your cell phone reference. Too bad for your argument that you got that fact wrong.
You also keep saying:
Why should “they” (Middle-East Muslims/Arabs, etc) believe ANY of it?
Well, if you put down this month’s copy of Conspiracy Nuts R Us, hop off the conspiracy web sites, take In Plane Site out of the DVD player for more then a day and actually look at the news sources from and of the people you keep claiming “don’t buy it” you will find that your statement doesn’t hold water.
But you know what? You won’t. You’ll keep moving right on down Conspiracy Lane and acting smug in your own little world.
You’ll ignore that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden, Saddam, Yasser Arafat and a whole host of voices in the Middle East that hate us and the news sources that they run all said that OBL & Al Qaeda did it. But In Plane Sight says otherwise, and that’s good enough for you.
The entire friggin world VS a few nutjobs and their website and video industry selling to the easy to dupe.
Not worth going round and round with you over it. Get a life & then have a nice one.
Bye now.
Dan, you don’t get it.
The Arab/Muslim extremists (and many others) don’t need some little conspiracy theory some kid came up with in the US. They have their own news sources, their own Imams, their own propagandists.
They either believe in their own conspiracy theories or that in the full justification of 9/11 or a mixture of the two. And they give themselves every benefit of the doubt. The only interest they may have in the little theory you like so much is when it supports their own propaganda.
And as for the Iraqis, Arabs, Muslims in general. Their will to believe or disbelief the US — and accept or deny what ever theories their own people come up with — has more to do with their self-interests and their emotional attitude than some little conspiracy theory in the US. Some of them cheered Bush when he toppled Saddam, so they had interest to believe good things about him, but when things started getting bad in Iraq, they had more reason to hate him and are more receptive to counter-propaganda.
You are so obsessed with these silly theories that you’re missing the big picture, the general conduct and policy of the US.
I spent a few hours last night digging up criticisms of In Plane Sight and it’s pretty clear the film is indeed poorly made. Now I wish I’d never brought it up because it wasn’t particularly important to my point. There are still many more reputable sources that Middle Easterners can use to base their claims that 9/11 is unfairly attributed to them.
“Can YOU prove Bush had nothing to do with 9/11? Can YOU prove no one in the U.S. government had anything to do with 9/11? Can YOU prove that the official explanations are actually inarguable fact? No, you cannot.”
Did you ever see “Plan 9 from Outer Space” with an audience? The part where Criswell says, “My friend, you have seen this incident, based on sworn testimony. Can you prove that it didn’t happen?” always gets a big laugh.
There’s a reason for that.
PAD
“Can YOU prove Bush had nothing to do with 9/11?”
As someone who’s been reading UFO books for the last twenty seven years(good God, I’m a geek) I can tell you it’s much, much easier to prove that something took place than to prove it didn’t.