Steve Rogers. Shot dead.
People have been asking me to comment.
Understand that, if I were a fan, my reaction would be, “Yeah. Sh’right.”
As someone working for Marvel, you have to realize that I knew this was coming months ago. And I know what’s going to be happening over the next months.
So I can’t say anything.
What I will say is, “Dang. It HAD to be the same week as the latest issue of Friendly Neighborood Spider-Man…?”
PAD
• 
LOL
I did get Friendly. Cap’ll have to wait. It might be a bit before the issue is affordable again. Hopefully my LCS guys’ll show me some love and give it to me at cover on re-order.
Meh. Sorry if I sound jaded, but to me the only question is whether it’ll be months or years until Cap returns. I mean, we’re talking about the same Marvel that’s brought back everyone from Phoenix to Norman Osborn to Captain Marvel to Bucky. “Dead means dead”? Okay. 🙂
Anyway, FNSM was good. I like that Sandman is starting to become a sorta good guy again (even if he has his own motivations). And I’m assuming that was the gross-out Betty moment you were talking about. Glad it was approved, but I thought it would be even worse. Like a moment out of that John Waters movie from the 70’s from the way you were making it sound. 🙂
I bought F.N. Spider-Man. I didn’t buy Captain America. I had heard the hype. I looked at the issue. I put it back. Honestly, I wasn’t reading Captain America before and I didn’t think seeing him shot was going to be a fun read, so I passed.
I am thinking of starting a “Captain America’s return” pool. $10 to buy in. Just put your money on how long you think it’ll be for him to come back. I’ll buy the block for “two years” right off the bat, though. I think they’ll want to milk this for a while, but not too long.
I don’t even have to say “Sh’yeah right.” The announcement of Steve’s death was “off screen,” and then the next thing we see is a body.
Brubaker is a class act and he’s playing fair with the audience. And I love the souped-up B-movie elements of how it happened (shades of “Manchurian Candidate”!)
Seriously, Peter, how did you feel when they first said Cap was going to die? I won’t ask you how you feel now because you already know what’s going to happen.
Whatever you do, please don’t be the one to bring him back to life or pull him from an alternate time line or whatnot. As much as I hate this turn of events, I really want to see Marvel have some gumption by never bringing him back. Death in comics is painful but resurrection is deadly (does that make sense?)
after being on the spidey board all this time and reading your fair comments to critics, i just received my doc savage in the mail and your forward in it! i love friendly neighborhood and now you love doc savage?!?!?! my favorite of all time!!!! you are now officially the man. get marvel to let you do a doc savage book. man, doc savage… and i thought i was the only one.
“And I know what’s going to be happening over the next months.
So I can’t say anything.”
Hopefully, what you do have to say about this icon’s “demise” will come through in your writing. I was thinking that this is a golden time to be working at Marvel. Look at all the possibilities that have opened up for the writers – to be able to write and publish stories far different from what the staus-quo has been – its got to feel more liberating. And I like the shape the Marvel U is forming, with writers (and good writing) taking more of the lead than artists.
Cheers Cap! We’ll miss you, but hopefully not for too long.
he’s not dead, Peter lent him the holo- projector.
My guess is Mr. Barnes assumes the mantle for a bit. You can’t destroy a symbol.
pleasepleaseplease no “Rise of the Captains” or clones…or cyborgs…or aliens….
tho I think what would be cool is a “C for Courage” ( riffing on Alan Moore here) type arc where every man woman and child dons the red white and blue…
PAD, I bet you a shiny quarter that F’n Spidey sales go up this month. I’m guessing that more people in the stores is a good thing.
The first thing I thought of when I read the AP story on Cap’s death was the final panel in “Last Avengers Story.”
Where were you when Captain America #25 was spoiled?
If anybody is interested, Stephen Colbert is making “Captain America” his “W0RD of the Day” on tonight’s show. Should be interesting.
I was wondering if you’d have a comment on the death of Cap.
At least it didn’t come out the week you had 3 books on the new rack!
Dave
Has anyone else heard this:
When I picked up my comics yesterday, the shop owner held up CA #25 and said that Fox News had said the comic was lending support to the terrorists.
I know, I know … but, then again, this IS Fox News we’re talking about …
Cap isn’t dead. He’s the Mighty Avengers Iron Man(Wishful thinking). Captain Marvel isn’t dead. Bucky isn’t dead. Jason Todd isn’t dead. Ted Kord isn’s dead. Aunt May is dying again.
Now’s the perfect time for Ultimate Cap to come over and show 616 Iron Man what a butt whoopin’ is.
Like the new Friendly. The Sandman, hair and all, has been one of my favorite Spidey foes. He’s always been a foe Spidey shouldn’t beat, but he always finds a way. Are the any of the Spidey comics going to mourn Cap?
I’m guessing Captain America’s death was submitted as a press release no differently than Spider-Man’s death was last year, but the only reason this is making the news is because of how badly the US is doing in the Iraqi occupation.
For my money, the best contemporary run of Captain America (post-Avengers #4) was Steve Englehart’s, in which a disenchanted Steve Rogers temporarily gave up his costume in order to become Nomad. Some thought-provoking political commentary, some great art from Sal Buscema (unfortunately later replaced by Frank Robbins which put me off a bit) and some really strong character development. If Brubaker can do as good a job on the current book, I may start reading it again.
Let’s face it, as Peter quite rightly pointed out, nobody in their right mind believes that Captain America is dead- there is far too much money involved in licensing involved (although it’s sorta cool to fantasize that Joe Simon could call and say, ‘Since you’re not using my character any more, can I have him back?’ but if it makes for a good story in the meantime, it doesn’t make the slightest difference to me.
If it was up to me, I would have sent Cap over to the Middle East for an extended storyline, maybe get him enlisted in the so-called war against terror. In the hands of a really inspired writer, can you imagine the kind of story that would have produced? And dropping the character into a ‘real life’ setting would have generated the kind of ongoing publicity that would have made artificially-generated event stories totally unnecessary. But that’s just my take on it.
We all know that even though Steve Rogers is dead for now, Captain America will live on.
So who’s the next cap? Bucky? The Falcon? Sharon Carter?
I personally like the idea Clint Barton (a.k.a. Hawkeye) taking up the mask. That is, if he’s not Ronin.
Just as long as it’s not the Punisher, which is unlikely considering he has two of his own books already.
You read it here first, folks.
The new Captain America will be… Kara Thrace!!
I haven’t been a collector in years, so the news caught me by surprise. Still, like most comic deaths it seems contrived. It reminds me an awful lot of the “Death of Superman”. Now, Marvel is coming out with the “five stages of grief” comics, which will probably sell a lot. Marvel’s gonna laugh all the way to the bank.
To this day, the only death that resonates to me was that of the original Phoenix. She was dead. For years. There was no “special series” of titles that dealt with “world without Phoenix”, and no clamor for someone to “pick up the mantle”. I’m still annoyed that Marvel reintroduced Jean Grey. A cocoon in the bay??? What a rip.
In a few years, a new Captain will arise. One for the terror wars instead of WWII. He’ll likely be grittier, edgier, and more Jack Bauer like or something. He’ll probably sell more comics because of it, too.
But he won’t be Captain America.
“Just as long as it’s not the Punisher, which is unlikely considering he has two of his own books already.”
I have this image of Punisher sneaking into a government compound so he can steal the shield and become Cap. He crawls through the ventilation system, knocks out a vent, and drops into the seemingly impregnable storage room.
Only to find Winter Soldier, Patriot, and Hawkeye arguing over who gets to be Cap.
I’ve read all of Brubaker’s Captain America issues, and I’m just assuming this is another twist in his already really twisty storyline from him (it has been remarkably good so far.) I mean, with all of the crap that Red Skull has done this entire arc, you really think his Grand Evil Scheme was to just have Steve Rodgers gunned down by a sniper? C’mon, I think Bru’s better than that, but I’ll assume Steve’ll be off the map for about a year, maybe. I seriously doubt we’ll have Bucky America as the title character.
Remember, we are talking about the same writer who bumped off Red Skull and Foggy Nelson inside of, like, 3 issues of innagural his run on their respective issues, and then both characters revealed to be alive, like, 6 issues later, anyway. I’m hoping this is along those lines, because killing off Cap and replacing with Nu-Cap never works. Just ask the four Supermen / Jean Paul Valley / Ben Riley. Hopefully, Brubaker will do something *different*, which is what I’m looking forward to.
The only thing that bothers me about this hub-bub is how when “Captain America” is brought up in the papers, he’s mentioned usually as a right-wing icon or something. If anyone has actually been reading Brubaker’s work, you can see his stuff has been fairly non-political the entire run. Thats why I, as a Canadian, can read a “Captain America” comic and not feel as if I’m reading flag-waving propaganda, like “24” (something else that people try to highlight as “conservative” entertianment) Cap is an action story, not a political one.
The other thing that bugs me is bumping off Cap is that I feel as if it dilutes the ending of Civil War #7. I’m one of the few people who happened to *like* how he surrendered at the end of it– it was unconventional and interesting. Killing him off was what we all expected, and CW #7 DIDN’T do that, which is what made it so neat. Then, 2 weeks later, they bump him off anyway. Feels like a cheat, to me.
Peter Parker is Your Friendly Neighborhood Captain America.
Actually, he’ll be one of a five thousand Captain Neighborhoods in Tony Stark’s 5000 Neighborhood Initiative. But Peter’ll most likely be the friendliest.
Tallest brings up a point that really bothers me a bit about this scenario, which is that putting anybody else in the costume and mask does not make them Captain America. In my mind, Steve Rogers IS Captain America. Even without the mask, Steve is always Cap and vice versa.
Brian Douglas –
where was I? I was at work when my wife called me and said she’d seen something in the newspaper about it. my reaction was basically as Peter put it “shyeah right.”
First let me “Accentuate the Positive”
I love Cap. Fantastic, Iconic, bloody dammnit all that America is and should be about. I had Joe Simon sign the shield of my Marvel Legends Cap figure.
Now, I don’t collect the comic but I bought and read Winter Soldier and found it freaking great and felt “If they’re gonna resurect him they’ve at least telling a great story” – I like Brubakers writing. a lot. Just don’t have the budget for it. pretty confident he’ll have a good story told. And agree that Clint Barton at as Cap would be the coolest idea ever – just my nerdly opinion.
now to “Relate to the Negative’*
I don’t belive it. No doubt that sooner or later he’ll be back.
It feels like a “stunt” – and I want to belive that it’s not an intentional stunt – i guess more like the effects of it were a stunt.
I don’t buy Cap and didn’t buy this issue. I’ll read the trade later. But there are people out there buying or trying to buy large numbers of these things. because they either belive they’ll be super-valuable one day and pay for their kids college or to are sell them on ebay where there are no doubt people are bidding too much right now or soon will be.
and sooner or later it will be in the dollar bin with the “black pollybag with the armband issue” and it makes me kinda sick, kinda sad, and kinda pìššëd that it boils down to these people who are paying outrageous rates now are basically throwing money away that could be better spent.
Also , I think it stinks that the newspapers get away with spoliling something like this. If someone revealed the end of the new Harry Potter novel first thing moring of it’s publication people would scream bloody murder. But apparently screw the comic book geeks – feel free to spoil their fun – If the paper spolied something from 52 i would have had to kill my wife for telling me on the phone if I hadn’t read it yet.
It’s not nice but it is Nerd Law – If you love the book you wanna read it before you know a dámņ thing.
Hang on to the Affirmative
BTW – hooray for the retails who say one or two to a customer, hopefully making sure that the real fans – the guys who bought it so that they have this bit of history, this start to probably a great little story, this something he’ll put in a pollybag with a backboard and take it out and read it sometimes or prop it in his display case other times or have his kid read it some day- got their hands on them.
and horray for PAD too – one of the reasons i know you’re a cool guy is your comments doin’t “spoil” a dámņ thing about what’s coming up. Thanks for that.
I should end this by calling myself ‘Mr. In-Between” but those who know me call me
Mike “shaggy” g**
*yes, I know the song lyric is “Don’t relate to the negative”
** that’s not true – people who know me call me “Mike” or “Shaggy” or on rare occasions “g” but never all three at once.***
***but it would be cool if someone did.
Brian Douglas –
where was I? I was at work when my wife called me and said she’d seen something in the newspaper about it. my reaction was basically as Peter put it “shyeah right.”
First let me “Accentuate the Positive”
I love Cap. Fantastic, Iconic, bloody dammnit all that America is and should be about. I had Joe Simon sign the shield of my Marvel Legends Cap figure.
Now, I don’t collect the comic but I bought and read Winter Soldier and found it freaking great and felt “If they’re gonna resurect him they’ve at least telling a great story” – I like Brubakers writing. a lot. Just don’t have the budget for it. pretty confident he’ll have a good story told. And agree that Clint Barton at as Cap would be the coolest idea ever – just my nerdly opinion.
now to “Relate to the Negative’*
I don’t belive it. No doubt that sooner or later he’ll be back.
It feels like a “stunt” – and I want to belive that it’s not an intentional stunt – i guess more like the effects of it were a stunt.
I don’t buy Cap and didn’t buy this issue. I’ll read the trade later. But there are people out there buying or trying to buy large numbers of these things. because they either belive they’ll be super-valuable one day and pay for their kids college or to are sell them on ebay where there are no doubt people are bidding too much right now or soon will be.
and sooner or later it will be in the dollar bin with the “black pollybag with the armband issue” and it makes me kinda sick, kinda sad, and kinda pìššëd that it boils down to these people who are paying outrageous rates now are basically throwing money away that could be better spent.
Also , I think it stinks that the newspapers get away with spoliling something like this. If someone revealed the end of the new Harry Potter novel first thing moring of it’s publication people would scream bloody murder. But apparently screw the comic book geeks – feel free to spoil their fun – If the paper spolied something from 52 i would have had to kill my wife for telling me on the phone if I hadn’t read it yet.
It’s not nice but it is Nerd Law – If you love the book you wanna read it before you know a dámņ thing.
Hang on to the Affirmative
BTW – hooray for the retails who say one or two to a customer, hopefully making sure that the real fans – the guys who bought it so that they have this bit of history, this start to probably a great little story, this something he’ll put in a pollybag with a backboard and take it out and read it sometimes or prop it in his display case other times or have his kid read it some day- got their hands on them.
and horray for PAD too – one of the reasons i know you’re a cool guy is your comments doin’t “spoil” a dámņ thing about what’s coming up. Thanks for that.
I should end this by calling myself ‘Mr. In-Between” but those who know me call me
Mike “shaggy” g**
*yes, I know the song lyric is “Don’t relate to the negative”
** that’s not true – people who know me call me “Mike” or “Shaggy” or on rare occasions “g” but never all three at once.***
***but it would be cool if someone did.
Brian Douglas –
where was I? I was at work when my wife called me and said she’d seen something in the newspaper about it. my reaction was basically as Peter put it “shyeah right.”
First let me “Accentuate the Positive”
I love Cap. Fantastic, Iconic, bloody dammnit all that America is and should be about. I had Joe Simon sign the shield of my Marvel Legends Cap figure.
Now, I don’t collect the comic but I bought and read Winter Soldier and found it freaking great and felt “If they’re gonna resurect him they’ve at least telling a great story” – I like Brubakers writing. a lot. Just don’t have the budget for it. pretty confident he’ll have a good story told. And agree that Clint Barton at as Cap would be the coolest idea ever – just my nerdly opinion.
now to “Relate to the Negative’*
I don’t belive it. No doubt that sooner or later he’ll be back.
It feels like a “stunt” – and I want to belive that it’s not an intentional stunt – i guess more like the effects of it were a stunt.
I don’t buy Cap and didn’t buy this issue. I’ll read the trade later. But there are people out there buying or trying to buy large numbers of these things. because they either belive they’ll be super-valuable one day and pay for their kids college or to are sell them on ebay where there are no doubt people are bidding too much right now or soon will be.
and sooner or later it will be in the dollar bin with the “black pollybag with the armband issue” and it makes me kinda sick, kinda sad, and kinda pìššëd that it boils down to these people who are paying outrageous rates now are basically throwing money away that could be better spent.
Also , I think it stinks that the newspapers get away with spoliling something like this. If someone revealed the end of the new Harry Potter novel first thing moring of it’s publication people would scream bloody murder. But apparently screw the comic book geeks – feel free to spoil their fun – If the paper spolied something from 52 i would have had to kill my wife for telling me on the phone if I hadn’t read it yet.
It’s not nice but it is Nerd Law – If you love the book you wanna read it before you know a dámņ thing.
Hang on to the Affirmative
BTW – hooray for the retails who say one or two to a customer, hopefully making sure that the real fans – the guys who bought it so that they have this bit of history, this start to probably a great little story, this something he’ll put in a pollybag with a backboard and take it out and read it sometimes or prop it in his display case other times or have his kid read it some day- got their hands on them.
and horray for PAD too – one of the reasons i know you’re a cool guy is your comments doin’t “spoil” a dámņ thing about what’s coming up. Thanks for that.
I should end this by calling myself ‘Mr. In-Between” but those who know me call me
Mike “shaggy” g**
*yes, I know the song lyric is “Don’t relate to the negative”
** that’s not true – people who know me call me “Mike” or “Shaggy” or on rare occasions “g” but never all three at once.***
***but it would be cool if someone did.
So he gets shot in Captain America #25
In Civil War: Initiative (also out this week) we are told – second hand, admittedly – he is alive and recuperating somewhere.
Now, it is certainly possible (probable? – considering recent delays) that Marvel intended a time delay between these two issues. But it ain’t there.
So we’re left with newspapers blaring a headline that he’s dead, and the content of the story only saying he’s been shot. And we have at least one superhero in one title this week saying he’s alive.
My belief is Marvel leaked this to the press…knew they’d bite…they just wanted to sell a lot of copies and hopefully get a few new readers for The Initiative. But Cap isn’t really dead. Not even for a month. And everyone who bought a copy thinking it would be as much of a collector’s item as Superman’s death, are going to be pìššëd.
Crutch – Count me in. PAD doing Doc? Drool.
As for Cap? Marvel and DC both have screwed around much too often with supposedly ‘dead’ heroes for one to believe this one. Especially with a Cap movie supposedly in development. I’m betting an LMD such that Cap can go undercover as a condition of release.
Sorry if I sound jaded, but to me the only question is whether it’ll be months or years until Cap returns.
Well, you’re far from the only one, as I’m jaded too.
Why shouldn’t I be skeptical of Captain America supposedly being dead? Or that Spidey was unmasked, that most of the mutants were no longer mutants?
Everybody has died and come back to life. Many really stupid and contrived stories have been written to try and bottle things back up
Let’s face it, Marvel has only themselves to blame, because even if these particular changes stick, the perception that Marvel isn’t going to turn back the clock on some of this stuff isn’t going to change any time soon.
Me, I’m still miffed Colossus was brought back. I don’t give a dámņ who did it, or why. His death was as heroic as one can get, and his self-sacrifice was completely pìššëd away for yet *another* resurrection. I can’t wait to see who’s resurrected next.
I believe PAD discussed the whole “is the death of a major character really just a calculated stunt?” at one of the I-CON panels last year. If memory serves (and feel to correct me if I’m off, PAD), his answer was something like: Of course! The people who read comics, and who work in comics, know that this massive, legendary character won’t stay dead. Comics fans and pros smirk at the idea that the hype around the latest big death will be permanent, while mainstream newspapers react as if this has never happened before and must be true and unchanging. PAD also observed — I think in an early BID column — that comics writers, by cheapening death into a seldom-permanent state, have lost one of the most dramatic tools available to a writer.
But gosh, what if Captain America *really* is dead for good?
[smirk]
In Civil War: Initiative (also out this week) we are told – second hand, admittedly – he is alive and recuperating somewhere.
Joe Quesada, being interviewed at Comic Book Resources: (POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING):
She’s actually giving her mis-information, none of that is true, but it is an element of the story that eventually gets revealed later on in the story.
My first comment wasn’t a rant, but I think I will now.
1. I found Red, White, and Black and interesting read, but felt it tainted Captain America. It made he seem unworthy of the title, because he was the result of many experiments. The storyline itself was racist. Why would it have been African-Americans the serum was tested on if they were going to make a Caucasian super-soldier?
2. The idea that Captain America is not Steve Rogers is the biggest bunch of bull I have heard. “Captain America is an idea, not a man.” If that is so, why is this the one man you keep putting back into the costume? If Steve Rogers is not Cap, then why wasn’t Wilson or Fury the Cap in Ultimates?
3. I hate what they have done to Captain America. This was their one-up on DC. We killed one of our icons in a crossover, yet you chickened out.
4. WHY DO YOU “KILL” A CHARACTER THAT WE ALL KNOW ISN’T GOING TO DIE?
Like I said before, I hope Ultimates Cap gives 616 Iron Man the whoopin’ he needs. (Yes, I used whoppin’. I am trying to keep it clean.)
Last thing, I promise. Captain America was the ideal man from the 40s. That is the way his character works best. He isn’t like us, but he will fight til his dying breath to protect us.
down with shock writers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LONG LIVE CAP!!!!!!!!!!!!
To PAD, X-Factor is still my favorite book. Jamie vs. Hydra had people looking at me funny when I started laughing.
I’m starting a “Fire Ed Brubaker” petition.
No, no, not because of Cap’s death. But because Brubaker is spotlighting Red Skull and not Cap’s greatest foe: BATROC THE LEAPER!
Who’s with me?
@Jack Gabriel:
Why would the serum having been tested on others first make Steve Rogers unworthy of the title? Don’t you think his heroic qualities count more than whether the serum was tested on someone before him?
Why did you find the storyline of Red, White and Black racist?
I don’t really want to give any spoilers about what happens in Cap so I’ll just say that you should maybe do a bit of research about how he dies, what the ongoing storyline in Cap is about, how related to the Civil War crossover his death is before ranting on about it.
This just goes to show why it’s a good thing that writers such as yourself, PAD, own the rights to certain characters they have created and defined (Fallen Angel), and why that should be the norm in years to come. Chris Claremont did not create the X-Men, but he put 17 straight years of his life into that book and it always just seemed wrong that Marvel was able to screw around with those characters after he left.
I’m really getting fed up with the direction Marvel has taken of late. Quesada rekindled my interest in comics by appearing on The Colbert Report and promoting Civil War, he drew me back to Marvel titles and undoubtedly drew a lot of new fans in as well, and what do they do with this all this new attention? They squander it. They squander it by having different books contradict one another (did Spidey make his own way to the Secret Avengers or was he carried there by the Punisher? Does the SHRA involve a draft or not? Is the Negative Zone prison temporary or permanent? NOBODY KNOWS!), by having characters act totally out of character, and finally by having the wrong side win: having those on the side of the government win at a time when people in the real world shouldn’t be acquiescing to the government when it supposedly has good intentions but uses questionable means.
Then they portray Steve Rogers as this fish out of water, this guy who’s all out of touch because he was born so long ago, never mind that he’s had years, perhaps decades, to learn about the modern world and the people who live there. I have a hard time imagining this taking place if Mark Gruenwald were still alive and had a say.
And then they kill him. If they’re just going to bring him back eventually, it’s pointless. If they’re planning on keeping him dead, it’s not only causing needless grief for everybody who became attached to Rogers either back in the day or just recently after seeing him take a stand against the pro-registration people, it’s throwing money down the toilet! You take a character like this, build him up with this big event, and then after getting everybody interested and making fans of them…you take away the man behind the mask.
As far as FNSM goes, did they ask you to tone it down or was the scene with Betty the same as the one you originally conceived? I have no doubt that I’d be screaming like a little girl if I had the same experience Betty did, but after your previous post mentioning the date I was bracing myself for much worse. When I saw it was in a restaurant my first thought was “oh šhìŧ,” because I thought there was gonna be something in the food.
If it helps, when I got to my LCS shortly before 6 PM, there were no copies of Captain America left. It sold out ridiculously fast, so there’s no reason to worry about anybody looking at the shelves and going “Hmm, do I wanna see how this Sandman/Uncle Ben thing turns out in FNSM, or do I wanna see Cap die? I only have four bucks to spend. Decisions, decisions…”
^signing agreement, all of the above statement^
I do expect (and hope) Cap is back soon, but at the same time it’s reckless for Marvel to hype this and then pull the rug out. Death of Superman was a serious black eye, to say the least. That has me a little split about just how soon Rogers should be returned.
I am thrilled Colossus is back in print. (He was mentioned, wasn’t he? ha) I do get a positive vibe every time I see him or Psylocke in a book, so I’m looking forward to Cap’s return. Hopefully it’ll be a while, but not too long, only because all that media coverage shouldn’t be turned against the industry. oi
I somewhat agree with Rob Brown’s comment about getting fed up with the direction that Marvel’s taking. However, my feeling may be different. In my opinion, Quesada has done nothing positive for Marvel. The whole “Avengers Disassembled” led to my dropping the Avengers. I put up with that story, but once it concluded, I was done. Nearly three decades of following the Avengers ended through what I felt was a writer who had no understanding of the team and its individual members (especially, the Scarlet Witch) and the series’ history. Then came the “House of M” misfire. Didn’t read the mini-series and had no interest in it. I did read those crossovers in the books I was already getting–including “Hulk”–but the mini-series itself, just no. When Quesada said the main purpose was to reduce the number of mutants, that alone was about as stupid as anyone could have said–especially in light of this new “initiative” garbage. We had “too many” mutants but SOMEHOW every state’s going to have its own super-group? I can see it now, the team from Wyoming has as many–or nearly as many–members as the team from Florida, despite the vast difference in the two states’ populations. But having more than 10 million mutants worldwide–out of a population of 6.5 BILLION–is “too many”. Yeah, that makes sense. Marvel then cancelled “She-Hulk”, only to bring it back a few months later, a decision I still don’t understand. Then, following the whole “House of M” mess comes the announcement of a NEW MUTANT (despite the “no more mutants” BS–I won’t even go into that asinine failure of understanding basic genetics shown from that) and one of the most asinine retcons to the X books–I’m still with the X-books, for the most part, but I’m slowly growing disenchanted even there (aside from X-Factor). Then, Marvel announces a new Spider-Man book from PAD and pulls the old “crossover trick” between the new book and the other two titles which completely put me off picking up FNSM at all. Then comes “Civil War”. Lame. Then come the Civil War spin-offs. Double lame. The whole thing started off from a stupid accident and ends with a registration scheme which doesn’t change the fact that civilians may still be killed during battles between heroes and villains (had the “New Warriors” been registered, how exactly would they have handled the villains that would have prevented the deaths?). And, next? “World War Hulk”. Puh-leeze.
In over twenty years of active comic book collecting, my Marvel pull list hasn’t been this anemic since those earliest days when my budget didn’t allow for a lot of books. My “March Shipping” schedule has a paltry 18 Marvel titles, of which 7 are limited series (Dark Tower, Ultimate Power, Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes II, FF: the End, Squadron Supreme: Hyperion vs Nighthawk, Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo–Born Better, Wonder Man). Of the 11 ongoing titles, “newuniversal” is still on the “wait-and-see” list and “Thunderbolts” will be gone (I’m not sure I’ll make it through this first arc under the new direction). The other 9 titles are Ms Marvel, She-Hulk 2 and 7 X-books (Ultimate X-Men, X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, New X-Men, New Excalibur, Astonishing X-Men and X-Factor). If Squadron Supreme ever gets back on schedule, it’ll be back on the list also (ditto for any new Book of Lost Souls), but for someone who once disdained the bulk of DC titles (other than Legion of Super-Heroes and Wonder Woman) and only became a big DC reader at the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths–but still, pretty well split between the Big Two–this is very disheartening. Have I outgrown Marvel or has Marvel left me behind? I can’t say for sure. I do know that while I haven’t been completely enamored of everything DC has done in the past few years, DC has still managed to capture my imagination in a way that I don’t get from Marvel.
I wish I could say that I’m looking forward to something new from Marvel, but the stuff that Marvel wants to hype just doesn’t do it for me. (Note, for instance, I love “X-Factor” but we don’t see much hype/promotion for the book for new readers. The same with “She-Hulk 2”–there’s just no real hype/promotion for the book.) Even this “death” of Captain America doesn’t do anything for me. I haven’t cared for the comic in years and haven’t really invested much in the character himself in many years. When he’s appeared in something I’d read, he was just sort of there; some situations seemed “right”, some seemed “wrong”, but it didn’t really matter all that much. But, I know that Steve Rogers will be back AS Captain America, and in the not-too-distant future (given Marvel’s investment in fighting for CONTROL of the character in the last decade, he HAS to come back). But his death? Meh. Senseless. Pointless. Much like the company’s philosophy in the past few years as far as I’m concerned.
Sorry for the rant there.
On a different note, I noticed the newest Previews has a listing for a HC titled “The Darkness of the Light” by one Peter David. Is that you, PAD, and, if so, what’s the deal? I don’t recall any prior mention of this book. Is this the start of a new series of books, or a one-shot test? It certainly sounds interesting from the description but I’d like just a touch more info, if possible.
But gosh, what if Captain America *really* is dead for good?
They would have to keep him dead for years before we’d believe it.
I don’t mind the whole kill a character and bring them back routine–that’s comics and there’s no point in complaining about it. We all know they will be back. What bugs me is how some writers, knowing that we know the character will be back, try to get around that by killing them in ways so extreme that there is NO WAY they can return…only to return them, which requires an explanation that takes the suspension of disbelief and stomps on it until it bleeds.
I don’t know…except for PAD and a very few other writers, the Marvel Universe seems to be losing a lot of what made it great. It’s becoming an unpleasent mean place…with superheroes. Watchmen and Dark Knight were grim and dark but there was still that mythic quality. Too many writers seem to have no interest in even trying for that. Boy, will this stuff look dated in just a few years.
Then again, maybe I enjoy PAD’s work more because we are close to the same age and I’m just not getting these youngsters (actually, I have no idea how old any of the other writers are but I hope it’s very young).
Is it just me or has not a single news story used the it-begs-to-be-used headline: CAP CAPPED?
It’s really sad to see what Marvel has come down to. The big mega-event ends with a thud and fizzle, with promises that all the following mega-events will be even better. Having no real ending there, they throw an ending into Captain America, which everyone knows is not an ending, just another “mark time” until another event.
Meanwhile, two new books hit this week to show us
what the new Marvel Universe will be like. Initiative kills off one group of characters
in order to introduce us to the next group of characters that no one will care about in six months. Later on we get to see a legalized group of villains beat up on a guy that can run fast. Mighty Avengers promises some fun what with a number of female members and Frank Cho as the artist, but there’s just not enough of that to get us past Tony Stark’s babbling. Both books read like 20 pages of Miranda rights with maybe a page or two of substance.
On the other hand, 52 continues to be the best read in comics and the end of Meltzer’s first Justice League arc really delivered.
I have usually enjoyed your work, Peter, but it’s getting harder and harder to justify spending any money on a product with the big block “MARVEL” on it.
As a metaphor for the Tuskegee syphilis study, red, white, and black seemed to fairly represent the institutionalized racist agendas of its time.
Newton said that he was able to see farther because he stood on the shoulders of the giants who preceded him. How unworthy is an America that doesn’t acknowledge its own blood-soaked foundations?
America’s blood-soaked origin is not black and white. The blood of many origins were spilled, be it Irish, Mexican, Native American, African, Chinese, etc…
Red, White and Black focused on African Americans being the used for experiments. Anybody that knows the history of our country knows that they were not the only ones experimented on. It bothered me that Cap was created to fight evil men and yet it was made to be that he was created by evil men. The story tarnished his origin as well as his creator Dr. Reinstein. The Patriot’s reaction to Cap is a prime example. Patiot looked at Cap with disdain.
Captain America’s origin was the first comic book I read. He has been one of my favorites for 20+ years. His death proves one thing, he is the only hero who is truly out of place. His death also proves patriotism is dead.(No neo-con here. Registered Democrat.)
I first read about this yesterday over on FARK. I don’t remember the username of the particular poster, or theexact phrasing, but I had to laugh when they said something to the effect of, “dying has to be better than being drawn by Rob Liefeld again.”
I would disagree that Marvel has taken a turn of late. Way back when Quesada took over they decided for the most part to throw continuity out the window, and make sure all stories lasted for five or more issues so they could be compiled in trades. I, unlike most, find Bendis influence at Marvel one of the worst. I had to lessen my like of Daredevil after Bendis held the reins for so long. His specialty is not knowing a characters history. That is why he could be good at Ultimate Spider-Man, because you don’t have to know the character that good to write. He continually made Daredevi/Matt Murdock background characters in his own book. Thank God, Brubaker finally took over, his first storyline is the first I’ve enjoyed since Bob Gale took over for five issues. I am very glad that there are a lot of trades coming out from the old Glory days of Marvel.
I do enjoy the current run of Cap also under Brubaker. The best stories since the original run ended under Mark Waid. For some reason after reborn, Waid lost his stride, as the next series never quite captured that feel again.
Is that a noble agenda — the pursuit of respect and glory?
Ok. I am on record saying I really disliked Civil War, particularly how it has twisted my favorite character, Tony Stark / Iron Man. I am also a huge fan of Captain America and have appreciated the recent revival of the character. So it surprises me that I am ok with this event.
There is no way Steve Rogers is gone forever. But in terms of story, not just marketing, Marvel has done what they have said (as expressed by Joe Q.) They have changed the mutant equation, and now they have turned the universe upside down. Even though I HATE JMS take on Iron Man /Stark and thought the Civil War was not executed well, my interest in the Marvel Universe has increased. I WANT to know where this is headed. And unlike the Death of Superman at DC, even if Rogers comes back, I really believe things will be different in ways that really matter.
I don’t know what role PAD has in this change at Marvel. Obviously Joe as chief editor is the biggest factor. But I suspect PAD not only knows things, he had a hand in planning things. So for whatever role you have had, PAD, I congratulate you and Marvel on reviving the line. I may not like certain changes, but there is no question that it is far more interesting than 5 or 10 years ago.
Regarding FNS, it was great. It was the “middle” of the story, so no spectacular fights, etc. But you are picking up threads you have started and advancing them. I don’t want to wait 40 issues to find out another crumb about the other time line Ben or what Arrow is up to. This story doesn’t answer the questions, but it does fell like we have gone a step forward.
Iowa Jim
I didn’t jump on board with the Death of Superman. I won’t jump on board with this. At least today’s comic buyers, and even the unwashed general public looking for a “magic investment,” won’t buy it into the millions of copies. They were too badly burned before.
It seems so utterly stupid and pointless, but in my samplings of Civil War books, this was probably inevitable. Without an organic, sensible ending, of course they had to pull off a synthetic big ending.
What surprises me is that nobody picked up on an unconscious need to kill Captain America. No matter who has drawn or written him over the decades, he’s still a reminder of Jack Kirby. According to Gerard Jones, there was a lot of resentment of Kirby when he returned to Marvel after the “Fourth World” DC years. In his slowness or refusal to adopt to the modern world and its modern morality, Cap was a strong reminder of his creator’s personality and beliefs. By killing Cap, is it possible that some people who resented living under the shadow of Kirby be trying to “kill” his influence?
I don’t believe Kirby ever delivered an opinion on The Punisher as a character, but I suspect Kirby would be boiling mad if such a compromised, amoral character even touched Cap’s mask. And that may be why it happened in the comic; to pull a switch on the old Irish joke, pouring a glass of fine Jewish wine on Kirby’s grave, but only after passing it through the kidneys first.
Jack Gabriel wrote: ” I found Red, White, and Black and interesting read, but felt it tainted Captain America. It made he seem unworthy of the title, because he was the result of many experiments. The storyline itself was racist. Why would it have been African-Americans the serum was tested on if they were going to make a Caucasian super-soldier?”
As others have said, the storyline echoed the Tuskegee syphilis study. I wrote a newspaper article on that miniseries at the time, and interviewed both Joe Quesada and Axel Alonso.
Quesada said the basic idea came two years previous when Marvel prepared to launch the “Ultimate” line. I quote from said article:
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Quesada added that in discussions of an Ultimate series about Captain America, Marvel COO Bill Jemas asked why couldn’t the character be Black, especially given what African Americans went through in World War II.
“Would it make sense that the U.S. Military tried out this unknown experiment on a White, blond, blue-eyed boy?” Quesada asked. “Or would they have tried it out on an African American? The answer became very clear to us.”
Axel Alonso, editor of “The Truth”, added that the clear analogy in his mind was to the Tuskegee experiments.
Ultimately, however, Marvel realized it couldn’t change the specific character of Captain America because of the various licensing deals related to the character. Among other things, the licensed image of Captain America is of a White character.
So Marvel shelved the idea, but it wouldn’t go away. Then Quesada decided that rather than do a story of a Black Captain America in the Ultimate imprint, they would tell the story of African American characters experimented on before Steve Rogers.
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During the interview, Quesda told me that response to the project ranged from curiosity, to strong support, to outrage.
For his part, Alonso didn’t understand why some people seemed to feel the story would besmirch the character of Steve Rogers. Again, from the article:
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“I fail to see how it follows that Steve Rogers would be less virtuous based on events that preceded him.”
Alonso also said anybody who think this project is looking to build walls between people is incorrect.
“It’s about building bridges,” he said. “It is arguable that this Black Captain America is (metaphorically) both father and brother to Steve Rogers. That’s part of the point of our story.”
_________________
Did they succeed in building those bridges? I don’t know. Except for the Captain America mini series, PAD’s brief return to Hulk and a few issues of Amazing Spider-Man penned by J. Michael Straczynski, I don’t regularly read Marvel books. So I don’t know if the Black Captain America has ever been mentioned again.
But I believe that if Steve Rogers and Captain America existed in the real world, the government would have first experimented on Blacks (or Native Americans or any other non-White groups). That, however, doesn’t reflect on Steve Rogers himself. After all, he wasn’t aware that such actions were taking place.
As to Dr.Reinstein, it’s been years since I’ve read the story, so I don’t remember what role he played in it.
Rick