Some weeks ago, I posted an item with thoughts about Israel. Since then I got some supportive comments, and also a bunch of anti-Semitic foulness (saying Jews are a rat-like race who deserve to be exterminated, that kind of thing) warning me against discussing such things on my comics website. Because, y’know, where do I get off deciding what to talk about on my website? Since I don’t want to give any of those fine anti-Semitic folks the slightest impression that I might be taking their warning seriously, I thought I’d post my latest concern over what might happen next. And considering that two weeks ago I was commenting that I was worried Marvel might go up on the market now that things are going well, and now the Comicon “Splash” is reporting that very thing as a possibility, my worries tend to materialize.
A couple weeks ago, 17 Israelis were blown up. In retaliation, the Israelis dropped a bomb on Yassar Arafat’s bed, knowing that he wasn’t in it. Kill 17 Israelis, lose a mattress. Even the most jaded Middle East watchers were wondering what was up with that. How is even briefly pressing back in on Arafat but doing nothing beyond that commensurate with the loss of 17 lives?
And I keep thinking about Sean Connery in “The Untouchables,” telling Kevin Costner’s Elliot Ness how to take on Al Capone. He said, “You want to know how to get Capone? Here’s how you do it. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That’s the Chicago Way, and that’s how you get Capone.”
Here’s what concerns me. With anti-Semitism on the rise, with the Palestinians showing far less interest in a homeland than they are in simply killing Jews and killing Jews and killing Jews, the Israeli government may decide they’ve nothing left to lose. Imagine the following edict from Ariel Sharon (a guy with two girls’ names, so he’s already testy):
“The Palestinian people do not distinguish between innocent people and military targets, and believe they can kill Israelis with impunity and will continue to do so. Very well. We shall do likewise. If next week, a suicide bomber kills ten Israelis, we will round up a hundred Palestinians at random. Men, women, children, makes no difference. Men and women are killing us, and children are being raised to kill us, so they’re all the same. We’ll round them up, line them up and kill them. Boom, dead. If in retaliation a bomber kills a hundred Israelis, we will round up and execute a thousand random Palestinians. For every one Israeli who dies, ten Palestinians will die. And if this is upsetting to the Palestinian people, there’s an easy way to stop it: Stop blowing up Israelis. Your collective fate is in your hands.”
How would the world react to that? Well, they’d probably scream at Israel. But they’re doing that anyway. They’d probably lose sympathy for Israel. But they’re doing that anyway.
*Should* this happen? Am I hoping it will happen? God, no. It’s a barbaric notion.
But I’m afraid that, sooner or later, it might. Because that’s the Chicago Way.
PAD
• 
I would agree that I do not want the situation to progress that far, either. But I feel Israel should do more than what they are doing. Arafat should have been taken out a long time ago.
You know, I nowadays live in Belgium which fascinates me to no end. Historically Belgium’s a mess. Not far from Brussels we have Waterloo (remember ABBA, haha) where one of the bloodiest ever battles of European history took place. I was born in the States but raised in Sweden where people sometimes enjoy bìŧçhìņg about how all the beaurocrats within the EU “do nothing but argue about the size and curvature of cucumbers.”
Looking at Israel and maybe also (alongside, and peacefully I hope) onetime Palestine and above all Jerusalem I can’t help but wish upon the people that Natalie Portman recently wished for would one day realize is one, that they one time have a Jerusalem comme Bruxelles, where perhaps arguments about the colour of olives is the most upsetting noise one will ever hear.
Oh yeah, and finally before somebody remarks about the perfection about the ever peaceful USA over EU… Let’s hear a few indians talk about how they feel about that certain issue. Sometimes I feel the only worldpeace the current american administration is offering today is the one that resides between a rock and a hard place…heh.
And…duh… I should’ve mentioned of course, that regarding the current USA administration, yeah, Chicago comes to mind… and unfortunatly I’m not thinking about pizza… (I love those three dots, haha…)
I am sick and tired of the double standards that are applied to Israel in its war (and yes it is a war people) against the Arab terrorist factions. After the al-Qaeda attacks in September, the US overthrew the Taliban, and bombarded Afghanistan, killing scores of civillians (accidentally of course). After waves of suicide bombings, Israel is ordered to behave nicely, not to hit back, as if it were a kindergartner fending off a bully, and not a country whose civillian population is in peril.
Israel needs to hit back with a proper offensive, not attend diplomatic conferences. This war is not about settlements, or territory Israel acquired in 1967, it is about the legitimacy of a Jewish state, and of the right of the Jews to live peacefully in their ancestral homeland. This conflict has been going on since the late 1920’s, when the Jewish community of Hebron was massacred by their Arab neighbors.
Dear Mr. David,
I read your recent article:”Invasion of the real world” in the latest issue of Comics Buyer’s Guide #1492, June 21, 2002 w/ great enthusiasm as I do every week when I go to my local comic book store and purchase the newspaper. It is the first time I have ever written to you and when I read your article I was flabbergasted that it was so anti-semitic (yes, Arab Christians and Muslims are semitic too).
You wrote that “kamikrazy” Palestinian bombers anhiliting more than 100 Israelis in a month and that the loss of Life at the World Trade Centre only represents a small fraction of what the Israelis died in Israel and that they have taken a far greater hit. And yet, the Israelis are being asked to show restraint and son on.
Mr. David, “trigger happy Israelis” have killed over 1500 Palestinians in the last 18 months of the second Intifadah. There are over 4,000,000 Palestinians living in horrid conditions and are under Israeli occupation. More people died in the World Trade Centre, the Palestinians have taken the worst kind of genocide in terms of percentage of its populace, with 0.000375 of men, women and children being systematically slain-nearly twice as many Israelis and nearly 4 times more that the Americans.
Mr. David, did you know that Israeli forces killed an estimated 13,000 Palestinians since 1948? They forcibly evicted 737,166 Palestinians from the homes and land. 503 Palestinian villages were entirely depopulated and destroyed and that an average of 50 Palestinian homes are demolished every year in Jerusalem (since 1967)?
Also, Israel remains the only state that has legislated the use of torture? No country other than Israel has
The USA has done its best in the past half-century to contain the viral hatred that has existed in that region for the past 3000 years (probably more).
The USA tries to hold back Israel because it knows that if it walks away and leaves the Arabs and the Jews to their own ends, nuclear calamity will ensue.
What does the USA get for its troubles (which actually are protecting the Arabs from becoming walking x-rays)? The Arabs hate them and send terrorists after them to blow up their planes, ships and citizens.
The USA should say enough is enough and let them go at each other. As soon as the USA steps out from between them the Arabs will band together to destroy Israel but they will realize only too late that they have simply unleashed that region’s nuclear doom upon them all.
Let them all seek out their own destiny and be praised or dámņëd by the consequences of their choices.
H.
Parts of an interview with Moshe Niseem, known as Dubi the Kurd
May 31, 2002
By Ydiot Ahranot Newspaper
Moshe Niseem, who is known as Dubi the Kurd is the person who was working the Bulldozer (9) that caused the most damage in Jenin [during the Israeli incursion in April 2002]. He speaks of how he leveled Jenin Camp during (75) hours while drinking a bottle of Whiskey and eating nuts.
I entered Jenin with madness and despair; the worst condition possible. I told my wife, if anything bad happens to me, at least you would be taken care of.
I didn
I come from Israel. Apparently, so do a couple of other posters here. Unlike most Israelis, i do not automatically defend Israel’s actions and infact have left the country several years ago due to the unbearable atmosphere that resulted by Nethaniahu’s election to PM.
However: there are a lot of misconceptions and a lot of spin (from all directions) on the subject of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and much of what’s already been said here exemplifies that.
I will not start addressing these things on a point to point basis, but leave you with a couple of general points:
– prior to his resignation, P.M Barak offered Arafat pretty much all the territory he was asking for, plus a piece of Jerusalem, in return for a definitive agreement. Arafat, no doubt fully aware that he will probably never get an offer like this again, refused. And, regrettably, got Sharon to deal with, instead.
– The majority of civilians, soldiers and even politicians in Israel have, for over the last 5 years or so, been pro Palestinian country. The main issue is to insure Israel’s safety, which is fair enough, I think. It’s very difficult to assume Israel’s borders would be safe when the Palestinian authority finances materials for suicide bombers instead of negotiating political agreements.
– After the Oslo agreements have been signed, Arafat recieved considerable financial support from both the US and Israel. This money was supposed to go towards infrastructure, creating jobs and the general benefit of the Palestinian populace, to ensure financial stability and less dependance on Israel for work. Instead, the bulk of it went to Arafat and his people’s private European bank accounts and the purchasing of undeclared weapons. The whole idea WAS to end the dámņ occupation, and Israel did pull out of Palestinian territories. as of about 4 years ago, the Palestinians (no longer under Israeli occupation), should blame their misery on Arafat and his military dictatorship, not Israel. Want to blow up? Blow Arafat up and elect another leader.
– Iran offers $10,000 (American) a pop (no pun intended) to suicide bombers, quite an incentive for a bored, unemployed, aggravated teenager with a starving family, dreams of religious glory and living under a dictatorial regime.
Here is the myth re: the”generous offer” offered to the Palestinians. read and learn.
Israel’s generosity
“Arafat spurned Barak’s generous offer at Camp David and broke off negotiations with Israel.”
The Myth Debunked:
One of the most powerful myths propagated in the US media today is that at the Camp David summit in July 2000, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak made an amazingly generous offer to the Palestinians that Yasir Arafat wantonly spurned, broke off negotiations and then launched a violent uprising against Israel. No element of this, the most cherished of media myths is true. In fact, Barak’s offer was anything but generous. It was Israel that broke off the negotiations, and the committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell found no evidence to back the Israeli claim that the Palestinian Authority had planned or launched the Intifada.
This myth was given life in large part by President Clinton who immediately after the Camp David summit broke his promise to Arafat that no side would be blamed for failure, and went on Israeli television declaring that while Barak made bold compromises for peace, Arafat has missed yet another opportunity. Let’s go through the evidence bit by bit.
Barak’s “generous” offer
What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a “state.”
The proposal would have meant:
no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.
In addition, the Barak plan would have:
included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the “international community.”
At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a “Greater Israel”, rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.
See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality at electronicIntifada.net/coveragetrends/generous.html.
John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that
John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that
“it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty.”
[Source: “The Impossible Partition,” New York Times, January 11, 2001]
The reality was far from the wild claims routinely made on the editorial pages of American papers that Barak had offered the Palestinians, 95, 97 or even 100% of the occupied West Bank. Barak himself wrote in a New York Times Op-ed on 24 May 2001 that his vision was for
“a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley.”
[Source: “Building a Wall Against Terror,” New York Times, 24 May 2001].
In other words, if Barak intended to keep 15 percent of “Judea and Samaria” (the West Bank), he could not have offered the Palestinians more than 85 percent.
No one can seriously talk about Israel being willing to end its settlement policy if 80 percent of its settlers would have remained in place.
Robert Malley who was Clinton’s special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs, participated in the Camp David negotiations. In an important article entitled “Fictions About the Failure At Camp David ” published in the New York Times on July 8, 2001, Malley added his own, insider’s challenge to the Camp David myth. Not only did he agree that Barak’s offer was far from ideal, but made the additional point that Arafat had made far more concessions than anyone gave him credit for. Malley wrote:
“Many have come to believe that the Palestinians’ rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel’s right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem — neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees’ right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel’s demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel — not Anwar el-Sadat’s Egypt, not King Hussein’s Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad’s Syria — ever came close to even considering such compromises.”
Malley rightly concluded that, “If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.”
The negotiations continued
While it is true that the July 2000 Camp David summit ended without agreement, the negotiations did not end. They restarted and continued until Barak broke them off in January 2001. Since then Israel has refused to enter political negotiations with the Palestinians.
On 19 December 2000, six months after Camp David, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators returned to Washington and continued with negotiations. These negotiations were based on a set of proposals by President Clinton which went beyond Barak’s offer of July 2000, but still fell short of minimum Palestinian expecations. Nevertheless, the Palestinians went on with the talks.
By some accounts these were proving fruitful. The Los Angeles Times reported on 22 December 2000, that:
“Amid signs that the two sides appear to be edging toward some sort of compromise on the emotional issue of Jerusalem, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked through the start of the Jewish Hanukkah holiday Thursday expressing a rare shared optimism.”
[Source: Los Angeles Times, December 22, 2000. “Hopeful mood fuels talks on Mideast peace; Negotiations: Israelis, Palestinians work through Jewish holiday as signs surface of a compromise.”]
In January 2001, the talks moved to Taba, Egypt, where they reportedly continued to make progress. They broke off at the end of January, and were due to resume but Barak canceled a planned meeting with Arafat. Shortly thereafter, Barak lost the election to Ariel Sharon, and the talks have never resumed.
The New York Times reported on January 28, 2001:
“Senior Israeli and Palestinian officials concluded nearly a week of stop-and-start negotiations in Taba, Egypt, tonight by saying jointly that they have “never been closer to reaching” a final peace accord but lacked sufficient time to conclude one before the Israeli elections on Feb. 6….. At a joint news conference in Taba, Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami of Israel called the two-way talks, from which the Americans were conspicuously absent, “the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations in this phase of the peace process.” He said the two sides hoped to pick up where they left off after the elections — although his boss, Mr. Barak, is expected to lose.”
Source: New York Times, January 28, 2001, “Mideast Talks End With Gain But No Accord.”
So how is it then that all these commentators and Israeli officials continue to deny that talks which the Israeli foreign minister at the time called “the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations,” never took place? How is it that so many continue to claim that it was the Palestinians who walked away from the bargaining table when it was Israel that stopped the talks and refuses to resume them?
What if the Palestinians were considered Elliot Ness and the Israelis were Al Capone?
One might say, then, that the Palestinians’ reprehensible suicide bombs are in fact the Chicago-style revenge that you advocate.
It was very reassuring that Peter David advocates violence in the extermination of the Palestinians. Hasn’t he learned that “never again” when the Jews were being killed by the Germans? It is so very easy for him to sit there, hiding behind the computer and never having to realise the attrocities being comitted by the racist and war criminal Ariel Sharon and his equally racist government.
Todays aricle from the Jerusalem Post.
Ayalon: Leave settlements, or no Jewish state
By GIL HOFFMAN
Former Shin-Bet chief Ami Ayalon and Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior called for Israel to leave Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip last night at a Meimad Party meeting in Jerusalem.
“The need to leave Judea and Samaria is not connected to the security issue but to the continued existence of the Jewish people in the land of Israel,” Ayalon said. “If we don’t leave the territories, either we will no longer be a democratic society, or we will not be a home for the Jewish people.”
Ayalon and Melchior said the demographic threat of the growing Palestinian population necessitates an immediate withdrawal from the territories. Melchior said the average age of Palestinians is under 13, while for Israelis it is over 40.
“We need to leave the settlements as soon as possible, with or without an agreement with the Palestinians,” Melchior said. “We simply cannot afford to be an occupier in today’s world.”
Melchior, Meimad’s chairman, said that while he disagrees with many of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s decisions, he must be given credit for his restraint and Meimad should remain in the government.
The party grew to two MKs when Rabbi Yehuda Gilad was sworn in on Tuesday, replacing new Lod Mayor Maxim Levy of Gesher on the former One Israel list. More than 300 people attended the Meimad event in the Jerusalem Crowne Plaza Hotel, which started with a toast to Gilad.
“I think it’s important to remain in the government,” Melchior said. “When the nation is hurting, there is nothing wrong with sitting in a national unity government, and serving in the government does not mean you cannot provide an alternative.”
Ayalon said the government is merely dealing with its own survival and is not bringing the state closer to becoming a peaceful democratic society, but he declined to reveal his political future.
as a jew, i can appreciate quite easily the sentiments mr. david has expressed. i understand the frustration of those who legitmately want a palestinian state to co-exist peaceably with israel; sadly, those are few and far between.
israel’s human rights abuses are not equivalent to homicide bombings. are they bad? yes, of course. but what do you do when your neighbor is willing to kill himself in killing you?
the argument that the bombings would end if israel would only get out of the west bank and gaza is specious; terrorist attacks were occuring against israelis in israel years before the ’67 war, ostensibly when this all started.
for a detailed, unbiased history of the subject, i would recommend checking out http://www.mideast.org and go to their history section.
for current events, i would recommend http://www.debka.com.
one day, may we all live in peace.
as a jew, i can appreciate quite easily the sentiments mr. david has expressed. i understand the frustration of those who legitmately want a palestinian state to co-exist peaceably with israel; sadly, those are few and far between.
israel’s human rights abuses are not equivalent to homicide bombings. are they bad? yes, of course. but what do you do when your neighbor is willing to kill himself in killing you?
the argument that the bombings would end if israel would only get out of the west bank and gaza is specious; terrorist attacks were occuring against israelis in israel years before the ’67 war, ostensibly when this all started.
for a detailed, unbiased history of the subject, i would recommend checking out http://www.mideast.org and go to their history section.
for current events, i would recommend http://www.debka.com.
one day, may we all live in peace.
ack. sorry for multiple post. whoever is moderating or administrating here, an error message pops up whenever there’s a post. you might want to look into it…
Morningstar- Peter said “*Should* this happen? Am I hoping it will happen? God, no. It’s a barbaric notion.”
Israel is held to a double-standard. They should be allowed to protect themselves. As a soverign nation, they should be allowed to retaliate when attacked. How hard is this to understand?
Ideally, I don’t think any of us want more deaths to take place. (I should hope not anyway.) But, the Palestinians are “showing far less interest in a homeland than they are in simply killing Jews and killing Jews and killing Jews.” What other recourse does Israel have?”
Re; Scott Hughey
Re: Morningstar- Peter said “*Should* this happen? Am I hoping it will happen? God, no. It’s a barbaric notion.”
Israel is held to a double-standard. They should be allowed to protect themselves. As a soverign nation, they should be allowed to retaliate when attacked. How hard is this to understand? (Israel sees itself as above the law, how many UN resolutions have they not honoured and broken? Israel is an occupying force who has dealt the most brutal form of occupation and apartheid against the Palestinians. What is wrong and immoral for the rest of the world the opposite is applied to any Israeli actions.)
Ideally, I don’t think any of us want more deaths to take place. (I should hope not anyway.) But, the Palestinians are “showing far less interest in a homeland than they are in simply killing Jews and killing Jews and killing Jews.” (Israelis have killed over 1500 Palestinians since the last 18 months, destroyed entire villages, confiscated Palestinian lands, built illegal settlements to this day, imprisoned thousands of Palestinians w/o any trial) What other recourse does Israel have?” (Israel can dismantle all the illegal settlements in the occupied territories, end it’s occupation, end it’s confiscation of Palestinian Lands, treat the Palestinians as equals and stop demonizing and dehumanizing the Palestinians.)
Hopefully when people stop being ignorant and rant and rave about the rapist who is not at fault, people w/ common sense will realise that occupation is wrong, that the massacre and HOLOCAUST of the Palestinians will not be silent anymore.
Interesting that the rabid pro-Palestinian poster feels the need to demonstrably lie about my position by stating that I advocated violence when anyone can see that I said I was *afraid* of Israel stepping things up.
Makes one wonder what else is being lied about, doesn’t it.
PAD
Re: Interesting that the rabid pro-Palestinian poster feels the need to demonstrably lie about my position by stating that I advocated violence when anyone can see that I said I was *afraid* of Israel stepping things up.
Makes one wonder what else is being lied about, doesn’t it.
PAD
Lies, oh you mean the Israeli cover-up of Jennin, Sabra & Shatila, Deir Yassin, Kibya, Nablus, etc…Do I need to go on Mr. David? Or is it still o.k. for Israelis to kill Palestinians, confiscate Palestinian Lands, build illegal settlement in Palestine. Oh, right I forgot, in your wisdom from your e-mails that you e-mailed me re: Larry Miller he mentionned that there is no such thing as a Palestine and Palestinians, that’s odd, you told me that your mom was born in Palestine, n’est ce pas?
A poster said “Lies, oh you mean the Israeli cover-up of Jennin, Sabra & Shatila, Deir Yassin, Kibya, Nablus, etc…Do I need to go on Mr. David?”
That’s not what Peter said at all. He said you were lying about his position.
Are you reading what he’s saying, or are you just skimming for key words?
Here it is again, for your convieience:
“Interesting that the rabid pro-Palestinian poster feels the need to demonstrably lie about my position by stating that I advocated violence when anyone can see that I said I was *afraid* of Israel stepping things up.
Makes one wonder what else is being lied about, doesn’t it.
PAD
“
-Scott
While going through and deleting duplicate comments, I noticed something.
According to the site logs, john, jakob, lorne, Mark, and theodore herzl all posted from the same IP address.
Fascinating, isn’t it?
Folks: General rule of thumb to keep in mind as one goes through life–
Always avoid and/or ignore people who think it’s clever to mix mundane French phrases in with their comments.
PAD
Everyone has the right to tell his opinion.
But I think such a discussion between people who are not involved in this conflict and cannot do anything about it makes not really much sense and will change nothing!
To wake up from this nightmare is to awake in a greater one. For one must realize there can never be peace in that region. The hatred is too powerful and has engulfed Palestinians and Jews alike. It cannot be abated, only fed. Everyone is too busy hating or killing each other for peace to ever blossom there. It is scorched Earth.
A hundred years from now while the Russians, Americans and Chinese are accomplishing great things to further the progress of all peoples, that region will either still be blowing each other up or have been turned into the world’s largest radioactive desert.
H.
To the last poster Heinrich >>
I’d like to enrich your perspective with the juxtaposition of Europe 1942 to the Europe of 2002.
C’mon have a little faith!
Just a teensy weensy itsy bitsy! You never know what will make a difference in the long run…
To the last poster here Heinrich >>
Let me enrich you with the following perspective: Picture Europe 1942 and Europe 2002 alongside another.
Now what’s the difference?
Great!
And now let’s ALL picture this: A board where you can post without getting an error message afterwards and where you get automatically directed back to the board all nicely updated with your shiny new and sometimes whiny post.
How much less whining would GreyMatter and every boardreader have to contend with?
Can the person who’s in techcharge of this site please get some more šhìŧ together. Maybe even all of it?!
About Jenin: the only lie is that a massacre ever occurred.
Larry Miller’s position is that no one ever called themselves “Palestinians” before 1964. There were only Arabs. The only people referred to as “Palestinians” were Jews, such as the all Jewish staff of the Palestinian Post.
The Jews aren’t forcing Palestinians to live in refugee camps, it’s their fellow Arabs. The King of Jordan admitted it, saying that he wouldn’t allow more Palestinians to move to Jordan because “it would be a disaster for Palestinian statehood”. Saudi Arabia won’t allow more than 20,000 in the country because “they would cause trouble”.
As for the U.N. rsolutions, they just call on Israel to withdraw from some “territories” captured in 1967, not all of them. there’s nothing sacred about the West Bank, it’s just the armistice lines from when Jordan attacked in 1948 (expelling Jews and destroying religious sites), an armistice that was broken in 1967. Like radio talk show host Larry Elder said, you start a war, you lose a war, you make concessions. That’s why Poland has Gdansk instead of Germany having Danzig.
The Weekly Standard had an article about attacks on Jews in France where it suggested the term “judeophobia” to replace “anti-semitism” to prevent the kind of word games that john/Mark/whatshisname used.
To the Christian Viola wanna-be who posted under “lorne”, and “”theodor herzl”, and other multiple aliases, anti-Semitism is a term invented by a rabid Jew hater in 19th century Germany. It does not refer to the hatred of Arabs. Semite in this case is a racial term, not a linguistic one.
Of course I doubt that minor facts like those would influence someone who posted a half dozen rants accusing the IDF of genocide, and PAD of racism. You have clearly made upyour mind on the Arab-Israeli conflict, and wish to start a flame war of some type.
Maybe you really are Christian Viola, after all.
My g-d,
I never realised that there is so much hatred by these anti-Palestinians posters. Don’t you realise that Israeli is illegaly occupying Palestine and that they are confiscating Palestinian Lands on a daily basis? Doesn’t anybody care? Or do you swallow anything anything that the American media or Peter David tells you?
If the roles were reversed don’t you think that there would be an international outcry against the mass killings, confiscations of land, illegal settlements?
All I’ve asked is the reason peter wrote is biased article on the Palestinians and I’ve been described as anti-semite, rabid pro-palestinian, and so on?
I feel that suffering of the Jews in these terrible times but can you also accept the suffering of Palestinians as well?
I leave you an article that Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu wrote, or will you accuse him as anti-semite?
John
A Moral Campaign to End the Occupation – Desmond Tutu
Saturday, June 15 2002 @ 05:38 PM GMT
By Desmond Tutu
The end of apartheid stands as one of the crowning accomplishments of the last century, but we would not have succeeded without the help of international pressure. There is no greater testament to the basic dignity of ordinary people everywhere than the divestment movement of the 1980s.
A similar movement has taken shape recently, this time aiming at an end to the Israeli occupation. We should hope that average citizens again rise to the occasion, since the obstacles to a renewed movement are surpassed only by its moral urgency.
Divestment from apartheid South Africa was fought at the grassroots. Faith-based leaders informed their followers, union members pressured their stockholders, and consumers questioned their store-owners. Students played an especially important role by compelling universities to change their portfolios. Eventually, institutions pulled the financial plug, and the South African government thought twice about its policies.
Moral and financial pressure is again being mustered one person at a time. In the United States, students at over 40 campuses are demanding a review of university investments. Europe faces efforts ranging from consumer boycotts to arms embargoes.
These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid South Africa. Yesterday
Even Ted Turner accuses the Israelis of being terrorists
CNN Chief Accuses Israel of Terror
Wednesday, June 19 2002 @ 04:18 AM GMT
By Oliver Burkeman (The Guardian)
Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel of engaging in “terrorism” against the Palestinians, in comments that threaten to lead to a further decline in the news network’s already poor relations with the Jewish state.
“Aren’t the Israelis and the Palestinians both terrorizing each other?” says Turner, who is vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, which owns CNN, in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
“The Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers, that’s all they have. The Israelis … they’ve got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism.”
His remarks were Monday night condemned by Ariel Sharon’s government, which called them “stupid”. Andrea Levin, director of the American pro-Israeli media watchdog Camera, said the comments were a “reprehensible” attempt to “blur the line between perpetrator and victim”.
In his first British interview since the September 11 attacks, Mr. Turner – who broke philanthropic records in 1997 when he donated $1bn to the UN – argues that poverty and desperation are the root cause of Palestinian suicide bombings.
But Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said: “My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone in that view.”
Mr. Turner also admits that he was wrong to call the September 11 hijackers “brave” in a speech in Rhode Island that sparked outrage. “I made an unfortunate choice of words,” he says, adding that his ownership of the Atlanta Braves baseball team meant the word was never far from his mind. “Look, I’m a very good thinker, but I sometimes grab the wrong word … I mean, I don’t type my speeches, then sit up there and read them off the teleprompter, you know. I wing it.”
Mr. Turner is moved to tears at one point in the interview by the “depressing” combination of conflicts like that in the Middle East and the state of the environment, which he says demands massive global attention – “or, you know … it’s goodbye”. A senior minister in Yasser Arafat’s cabinet told the Guardian he welcomed Mr. Turner’s comments. Many Palestinians complain just as bitterly of a pro-Israeli bias in CNN’s coverage – mocking it as the “Zionist News Network” – as Israel complains of a pro-Palestinian one.
“I feel it reflects a more consistent approach,” said Ghassan Khatib, Mr. Arafat’s newly appointed Labor Minister and until recently director of the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center, a Palestinian media monitoring unit.
“One of the problems in trying to reduce the violence has been the focus of so much international attention on Israeli rather than Palestinian civilian deaths, although four times as many Palestinians have been killed.”
CNN has been a punch-bag for both sides. A widespread perception of bias among some Israelis and US supporters of Israel has prompted several boycotts by pressure groups, urging viewers to switch to the Jewish owned and influenced Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News channel. But three months ago, in an interview with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, Mr. Arafat slammed down the phone after accusing her of anti-Palestinian bias. “You are covering with these questions the terrorist activities of the Israeli occupation and the Israeli crimes
Israeli Forces Commit Extra-Judicial Execution in Hebron
Wednesday, June 19 2002 @ 04:12 AM GMT
HERBON: Shortly after three o’clock this afternoon, Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint near Hebron committed another extra-judicial execution. A white yellow-plated Ford Transit van travelling with 7 passengers was stopped by Israeli soldiers at the Beit ‘Anoun junction at road number 60, east of Hebron. All passengers were ordered out of the taxi. They were ordered to take off their clothes and sit down on the ground. Meanwhile, the soldiers collected the identity cards of the passengers.
Suddenly, the Israeli soldiers turned around and opened fire on one of the passengers, who was later identified as Yusuf Ahmad Muhammad Abu Khadr (21), who is a student at Hebron University and a political activist. His body was riddled with fourteen bullets in the upper parts of his body, including his head, neck and chest. All other passengers were arrested and taken away to a yet unknown destination, most probably an Israeli military base or detention center nearby.
According to LAW’s findings, at least 85 Palestinians have so far been killed in extra-judicial executions committed by Israel. LAW emphasizes that extra-judicial executions constitute willful killings, which are a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and as such constitute war crimes subject to universal jurisdiction. Under Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, these grave breaches constitute war crimes. Whatever policy the Israeli government chooses to implement, it must by within the limits imposed by international humanitarian and human rights law.
Law stressed that Extra-judicial killings cannot be reconciled with the Fourth Geneva Convention, which seek to protect the lives of protected persons, and violate human rights norms that affirm the right to life and the prohibition on execution of civilians. The circumstances under which most extra-judicial executions are carried out, suggest complete disregard for the risk involved to the lives of bystanders. According to LAW’s findings, 29 bystanders have been killed so far.
The Palestinian rights group condemned Israel’s assassination policy, saying that Israel is legally responsible for the acts of its agents, and is under corresponding obligations to ensure that its agents adhere to the Convention and to prosecute those agents who commit grave breaches.
All state signatories to the Fourth Geneva Convention have also the right and are under a positive obligation to seek out and prosecute individuals responsible for committing or commissioning grave breaches, whereever the perpetrators be. Article 148 of the Fourth Geneva states that ‘no High Contracting Party shall be allowed to absolve itself or any other High Contracting Party of any liability incurred by itself or by any other High
Contracting Party…’
Israel’s ongoing human rights violations further illustrates the need for the immediate deployment of an international protection presence to prevent violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention and to protect Palestinian protected persons within the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
LAW – The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment is a non-governmental organization dedicated to preserving human rights through legal advocacy.
Mr. David, congradulations again for your bravery! While as for this John here, I want to say to him that he should be ashamed of himself for the hatred he seems to be displaying here. Dozens of civilians, women and children are being slaughtered almost every week in Israel and you justify that? Do you know that by displaying such behavior, you’re showing hostility even to the victims of the World Trade Center?
You’re also going to have to turn to the true history of the Land Of Israel. The Arabs were invaders and usurpers of the Jewish homeland, and the Arabs who live here today are the decendants from these invaders in addition to Arab and other migrants who came here later. And what about the Kurds in Iraq and the Black Sudanese who’re being opressed by Arabs? And what about the Jewish holy places, such as the Tomb of Joseph in Shechem and the ancient Synagogue Mosaic in Jericho and especially the Temple Mount that’re being violated by and kept out of Jewish access by Arab Muslims?
If you’re so much against the Jewish homeland, well then, why do you even bother to read the works of Superman and Spider-Man’s Jewish creators, Siegel & Shuster and Stan Lee? J. Jonah Jameson was meant to be a reflection of people like you, John, yet you apparently fail to see that, don’t you? Poor bášŧárd. If they or even Jack Kirby and Gil Kane knew how you were behaving and violating the very messages they were trying to come up with, believe me, they’d be ashamed of you.
Dear Avi,
I guess a rabid pro-zionist like yourself would fail to see the truth. How many Palestinians were killed since the year 2000? The answer is almost or close to 1500 Palestinians. Who is occupying the Palestinians? Who is confiscating Palestinian lands and illegaly settling them w/ foreigners on a daily basis? Is Israel also confiscating Greek Orthodox Church lands as well?
Before 1948, what was the country called-Palestine and not Israel. Most of the Jews who defected to Palestine from the late 1800’s to 1940’s were Jewish immigrants from Europe. So how can you say the Arabs ursurped the Jews? Is this what they teach you at school? Oh, let me guess, they’ve also told you and your fellow students that before the Jews came to the Holy Land of Palestine, that the land was barren and the immigrant Jews made it feasible to grow, right? Such lies!
Why don’t you find out and tell me? Why is it o.k. for American born Jews to settle in Israel and not for my parents who left Palestine for fear of being killed by Israelis not allowed to return?
Avi, you poor hyppocrite bášŧárd, think before you speak!
Didn’t you read my posts and allow yourself the time to even think what I wrote? In my previous posts I’ve said that I recognize the pain of the Israelis but can you recognize my pain or the pain of the Palestinians?
How many UN resolutions has Israel broken? How many mosques or Churches have the sraelis bulldozed or defaced? Or does Israel sees itself as above the law? They can murder, execute, confiscate, build illegal settlements whenever they wish.
Don’t you feel guilty or show compassion to the Palestinians that Israel has nucear weapons, the 4th largest army in the world battling against rock throwing Palestinians, massacred, butchered, destroyed entire villages, prevented palestinian wounded from receiving proper medical care during the massacre of Jennin?
Sure I read Superman, Batman and other superheroes because I enjoy reading them and I don’t care if the writer or artist is Jewish, Martian or a Somalian. And I’ve met Gil Kane and he was a very nice man, g-d bless him and I have some of his original art and some sketches. And he knew about me being a Palestinian and you know what, he was proud to the fact that his art reached out to everybody, Jews or Palestinians Muslims or Christians.
So don’t assume anything about anybody, Avi, you poor Khazar bášŧárd.
Shalom,
John
The Anne Franks of Palestine
Thursday, June 20 2002 @ 07:53 PM GMT
By Yusuf Agha
(YellowTimes.org): “It
Sharon’s Tactics Kill not only Palestinians, but Also Innocent Israelis
Friday, June 21 2002 @ 03:23 AM GMT
By Dr. E.A. Richards for Palestine Chronicle
Yes, the killing of both Israelis and Palestinians can be laid at the bloody feet of Ariel Sharon, the power-mad butcher of the Middle East. He has used his American supplied weapons to murder Palestinians and other Arabs during a regime that is bent on taking over all of the West Bank and Gaza, in a blatant campaign of Hitlerian type extermination.
How have the ruthless genocidal tactics of Sharon brought this about? It began on September 28, 2000, when the would-be Himmler boldly invaded an Islamic holy place of worship, the Al Aqsa, mosque with 1000 of his Israeli police thugs and army jackboots, killing anyone who resisted the assault. This was a deliberate stroke by Sharon to force outraged Palestinians into a new Intifada, where stones were used by the kids of Palestine to fight the Israelis armed with machine guns and assault rifles.
In a manner calculated by Sharon, step by step, bullet by bullet, body by body, the level of attack rose to hideous levels, with Palestine resistance matching each new IDF increase in aggression, within the limits of a poorly armed defense. Finally the Palestinians in great desperation were forced by Sharon to utilize a last defensive weapon, horrible in its use, fatal to the user in its accomplishment, but the only one left in which to attack the aggressors – the Martyrbomber. Each Martyrbomber knew he or she would give a life in the process, yet each also knew that attack in this manner was the only course left against an opponent armed to the teeth with American weapons.
However, instead of admiring the bravery of those who would fight in that manner, the pro-Israel American media overlooked the genocidal acts of Israel and Sharon, and only decried the Martyrbombing events. This delighted Sharon! He was able to institute a final solution to his warped dream of an Eretz Israel controlling the entire area that was formerly Palestine, and eliminating the Palestinian people at the same time. The Martyrbomber response that was directly due to his aggression filled him with glee.
Sharon was now able to institute a program whereby on each occasion bombing was used, he would invade Palestine and control it until there were no more bombing attacks. And, each attack was to be blamed on Yasser Arafat, whether or not he was behind it – the typical Israeli scape-goating approach. Now, is Ariel Sharon responsible for the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians? Absolutely! Why? Consider how many martyrbomber attacks on Israel were carried out prior to September 28, 2000, when the Al Mosque was attacked by Sharon? Few, if any! After the deliberate ploy of September 28, 2002, made only to fool the Isreali people to elect Sharon prime minister, along with effecting a new Intifada, how many martyrbomber attacks have been made? From the mosque attack on September 28. 2000 to June 19. 2002. there have been 37 martyrbomber attacks on Israel resulting in 250 Israeli casualties. This is according to official Israeli sources.
Palestinian casualties in the same period approached 2100, and this does not take into account the hidden deaths caused by the IDF in its invasion and occupation of Jenin, Ramallah, and other Palestinian cities, nor does it include the fate of the 10,000 Palestinian men and boys taken prisoner in the Israel invasion. Had not this true terrorist, Ariel Sharon, desecrated the Al Aqsa Mosque, brought about the Intifada, murdered stone- throwing Palestinian kids, wrecked Palestinian farms and olive groves, invaded the West Bank and Gaza, murdered Palestinian men, women, and children, destroyed factories, office buildings, and homes in his invasion of Palestinian territory, worked with the United States and truly civilized nations to attain a fair and equitable agreement between Israel and Palestine, there would have been no Martyrbombers.
But Sharon is a Zionist zealot whose total aim is a new Israeli Empire headed by him and his cronies. He has stated that the American congress and administration are his to control; but, let us hope US President George Bush can rise to the occasion and use economic and/or military force to stop this latter day Atilla the Hun from totally eliminating the Palestinian people. Israel is not a friend of the United States except where the money and arms pipeline from the US is concerned. They would turn on us in a minute, ala the USS Liberty attack.
To conclude, Mr. President, get the Israeli forces out of Palestine; stop giving Israel treasure and arms; stifle the wealth and power of the pro-Israelis in our government, media, industry, and financial centers who arrogantly think they control the direction of our foreign policy. Sharon and Israel have inhibited our war on general terrorism in the world through their own terrorist actions. It’s time for you, and the civilized world, to stop them!
You Are Sitting on the Key
Friday, June 21 2002 @ 05:38 PM GMT
By Hanoch Marmari, Ha’aretz Editor in Chief
Dear Settlers of ‘Judea and Samaria’:
The time has come for us to turn to you with a most painful request: to give up the dream you have cultivated for years and come home. Come home of your own free will, not because you are forced to. Come home, recognizing and accepting that this is what must be done. You will be welcomed with open arms.
In the 35 years since the occupation of the territories, you have known times of hope and prosperity, and times of trouble and affliction, but you have always set yourselves apart from the rest of the community. The act of settlement has been the source of rolling vistas turning into a life of bulletproof shields and flak jackets, it is hard to take any joy in the weakness of the left and the right-wing government’s lack of inspiration. Your chief accomplishment is the contribution you have made to hog-tying our national leadership. It may be true that no one can force you into accepting anything against your will.
But the clock of history is ticking, and the State of Israel is wearing itself out in a senseless conflict. Now is the time for some soul-searching, the likes of which you have never known. The hackneyed debates over active versus passive resistance to evacuation, over accepting or rejecting the decision of the majority, are not enough any more. Now you are being asked for more: You must explain to yourselves where you are heading – and where you are taking the State of Israel in the process. You have been the locomotive pulling the political train since the days of Sebastiya.
The bitter truth is that we have no leader strong enough to stand up to you. The whole Israeli right takes its cue from you, and you are the first to disrupt any plan for political compromise. The two prime ministers who tried to bypass the obstacles you placed in their path paid the price for it – one with his life and the other by being driven out of public office. Your power paralyzes governments; they cannot act, even to cut losses and save lives. Fear of angering you has filled every Israeli prime minister, rendering one after another incapable of evacuating so much as a single caravan – even when the largest fleet of bulldozers in the Middle East is at their command.
Therefore, if there is to be any kind of turnabout, it depends on you, as an idealistic community, as a cadre of educated people, as the guardians of Zionism, as people who differentiate between perpetuity and living for the moment, as people who dislike return, the bleeding wound that has sapped the State of Israel of strength all these years will quickly heal.
An Israeli public reunited can make peace with its neighbors from a position of legitimacy, with a clear head and heart. Moral strength will follow: He who has freely given up his dream has the right to demand that the other side relinquish its unattainable dreams.
The key to peace for the State of Israel is in your hands. You are sitting on it. Get up and use it.
Bush: Sharon’s Dummy
Friday, June 21 2002 @ 08:05 PM GMT
By Charley Reese
President George Bush continues to act as if he were a ventriloquist’s dummy sitting on the lap of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Sharon says he doesn’t like Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Bush says, I don’t like Arafat. Sharon says he won’t talk peace. Bush says, It’s not time to talk peace. And so on and so forth.
Most Americans don’t give a hoot about the Middle East one way or the other, just as they don’t give a hoot about Asia, Africa or Latin America. Americans should understand, however, that as long as the U.S. government assists the Israelis in brutalizing the Palestinians, denying them the protection of international law and denying them their basic human rights, then the supply of terrorist recruits will be infinite.
Why American presidents are so willing to risk American lives, to jeopardize America’s national interests, to give away American taxpayers’ money by the billions in order to cater to the Israelis and their powerful American lobby will no doubt fascinate future historians. In the meantime, Bush is proving to be totally incompetent in the conduct of American foreign policy.
His ignorance of the world at large is astounding. Apparently, he was not kidding when he joked about never reading any books. He probably demands that his staff give him one-paragraph summaries of complex issues with multiple-choice options. His entire policy, if you can call it that, about the Middle East seems to be dictated by the Israelis and their American agents.
The entire Arab world at last is willing to make peace with Israel, and Sharon and Bush are flatly turning their backs on the opportunity. Sharon is doing so because he has no intention of ever making peace with the Palestinians and says so frequently. Bush is doing it because he does whatever Sharon tells him to do. In doing that, Bush is sending a clear signal to the Arab world that he looks upon it with the same racist, colonialist attitude of Sharon. Arab suggestions and advice count for nothing. Bush seems to think he can always bully and/or bribe the Arab countries into going along with whatever Sharon decides to do.
That is an extremely dangerous assumption.
Among the many subjects Bush never bothered to study is general semantics, and its most important lesson is that today is not yesterday. The Middle East in 2002 is not the Middle East in 1948. The United States in 2002 is not the United States in 1991. The age of the Western stooge is coming to an end in the Arab world. A new generation of Arab leaders is in the wings. Mr. Bush is, vis-?vis the Middle East, like the old segregationists in the 1960s who refused to recognize that American blacks had finally said, “Enough is enough.”
America’s (and Israel’s) military superiority rests entirely on its high-technology Air Force. It is only a matter of time before the Chinese or the Russians make an air-defense breakthrough that will erase that superiority. And once we have to go man to man, tank to tank, without domination of the sky and ground by air power, Americans will learn that we are not the superpower our politicians claim we are. The day will come when we will not be able to bomb defenseless people with impunity, and on that day, Americans will wish they had relied more on diplomacy than on force.
George Washington’s farewell address is the greatest statement that was ever made about what America’s foreign and domestic policy should be. He warned against “passionate attachment” to another nation, which, he said, produces a variety of evils ?the illusion of common interests where no real common interests exist; adopting the enmities of the other; and participation in the quarrels and wars of the other without any justification. Still another evil is that such a passionate attachment gives to “ambitious, corrupted or deluded citizens the facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country.” Too bad Bush isn’t a reader.
Great!!! I like your site!!!
this is a good link you can refer Art Blogs
You are so far from the truth.
How come the peaceful protests in Palestine againstIsrael’s brutal and illegal occuption of their lands get no attention? Only the extreme suicide bombers get attention.
Israel is already killing hundreds of Palestinians, and now Lebanese. Please… your argument is unfounded. Stop oppressing and exterminating a race of people (Palestinians) and they will stop blowing themselves up in your cities. Israel is a terrorist state, there is no way around it.