Back when I was live-blogging the Super Bowl, I opined that teenagers today had no idea who the people she named in “Vogue” were. Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, Gene Kelly, Bette Davis: all these and more had no meaning.
Well, I was at the supermarket yesterday, and the cashier seemed quite young. And at a supermarket checking out groceries is pretty much the only circumstance under which some random middle aged guy can idly chat with a teen girl (she turned out to be seventeen) and not have it come across as creepy. As she ran the items across the scanner, I said, “Hey…you know the Madonna song, ‘Vogue?'”
“No.”
That caught me flat-footed. The question was actually rhetorical, a preamble to the more pertinent point. But not only did she not know the song, I also got the impression that she was vague as to who Madonna was at all. “She sang it during the halftime show at the Super Bowl.”
“Yeah, I saw that, and everyone was singing along, and I was just…” She shrugged. I wasn’t clear whether “everyone” meant the fans at the stadium or if she was at a Super Bowl party.
So at least she had been exposed to the song. I decided to mush on. “I was just wondering if the names she rattled off during the song meant anything to you. Fred Astaire?” Head shake. “Gene Kelly, Ginger Rogers?” Nothing. “Bette Davis?”
“Her I know!” she said cheerfully.
“Really? You know Bette Davis?”
“Yes. And Joan Rivers.”
I know what you’re thinking. I wasn’t seeing a connection either. As I slid my ATM through the reader to pay for the purchases, I said, “Uh…Bette Davis was an actress; Joan Rivers is a comedienne. I’m just curious why–?”
“They’re both old women.”
“Okay, well, except Bette Davis is dead, but that’s–”
“Wait,” she said. “I meant Betty White. I don’t know who Bette Davis is.” She paused and, seeing I looked slightly crestfallen–I think she wanted me to feel not quite so old–she said chipperly, “I know who Farrah Fawcett was! Does that help?”
I didn’t bother to ask if she knew that at one point the actress’ name was Farrah Fawcett-Majors, because I was fairly certain she’d never heard of Lee Majors. Although she might know who Steve Austin was. Everyone knows that. He’s a wrestler.
I’ll tell you one thing–I’m going to make dámņëd sure Caroline is properly educated in the greatness of old movies. The other day I had her watch “Oklahoma.” She was resistant to it at first, but slowly she got pulled in by the story and characters. She was fascinated by the dream ballet (which had always bored me when I was that age) and she kept asking about various developments of the story (although explaining the shivaree was a bit of a challenge.) At least to start, it’s just a matter of finding entry points for her. I think next I’ll show her “Singing in the Rain.” Not only has she seen the title song parodied in a number of places, but she was fascinated to learn it starred Princess Leia’s mommy.
I know I can do this. I’ve done it before. When Gwen was in college some years back, she was taking an art history class and the Professor announced that they were going to study the Spanish Inquisition. “What,” he asked, “do we know about the Spanish Inquisition?” Immediately Gwen piped up, “It was unexpected.” The teacher laughed. No one else did. No one else got it. No one else knew the bit or had ever heard of Monty Python.
Teach your children well.
PAD
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“It was unexpected”
You have taught her well, Great Sage.
I encountered a situation similar to this twice. Once, when I found out that my brother-in-law had never heard of the famous Abbott and Costello “Who’s on First?” bit. Apparently, some coworker had pulled that one on him at work and my sister had to tell him to look it up on YouTube.
The other was when I was at work lamenting that the disc of Duck Soup I got out from the library was scratched and couldn’t play. The cook I was working with responded with “Who are the Marx Brothers?” I then tried to explain it to him, which probably just made me sound crazy (it’s hard to explain the Marx Brothers without sounding crazy).
I’m only 29 years old, but growing up in my family’s house, this stuff is just common knowledge.
The single best movie-going experience I’ve ever had in my life was when I went to a revival theater in the Village and saw a double-feature of “Captain Blood” and “The Adventures of Robin Hood.” Aside from the fact of, you know, how can you NOT love those films, the audience roared when we came to the realization that, in both films, Olivia DeHaviland says to Errol Flynn, “You speak treason!” In “Captain Blood,” his response is just kind of okay: “I trust my meaning is not obscure.” And it’s like, after it came out, it was like the writers of “Robin Hood” (which may well have been in development at that point) saw it and said,”Oh, I have a MUCH better response.” And a couple years later, out come “Robin Hood,” and Maid Marian says, “You speak treason!” and Robin replies, “Fluently!”
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PAD
Yeah, that’s a great line. The first time I consciously remember seeing “The Adventures of Robin Hood” was a the historic Biograph Theater in Chicago during the mid-1970s. And I saw it R-I-G-H-T. At the time, the Biograph had recently become an art-house theater, and they somehow scored a pristine, brand-new, 35mm Technicolor print shot from the original negative, and it was simply gorgeous. So I saw it the way it was meant to be seen — on the big screen, and in glorious Technicolor. Man, that was an unforgettable experience!
“When Gwen was in college some years back, she was taking an art history class and the Professor announced that they were going to study the Spanish Inquisition. “What,” he asked, “do we know about the Spanish Inquisition?” Immediately Gwen piped up, “It was unexpected.” The teacher laughed. No one else did. No one else got it. No one else knew the bit or had ever heard of Monty Python. ”
Or maybe it just wasn’t funny. This is 2012, afterall. Quoting Monty Pyhton in public stopped being funny (and, in fact, became actively annoying) sometime in the late 80s to mid 90s.
No offense to your daughter, I just didn’t like the somewhat superior attitude of your tone, that because nobody laughed at your daughter’s reference it’s because nobody else understood it, from which we are supposed to infer that it was because those other students weren’t fortunate enough to have a parent like you. That’s snobbery, Peter, and you’re better than that.
And, yeah, nobody likes the class clown in an art history class.
That’s one hëll of a lot of inference to draw from a simple anecdote, Furthermore, for what it’s worth, I find your tone to be as superior, if not more so, as you assert that mine is. All *I* said was that parents should make an effort to expose their kids to the things they enjoyed growing up, just as my parents did with me. You, on the other hand, have decided that quoting Monty Python in public (as opposed to, I guess, rattling off the Dead Parrot Sketch in your bathroom) isn’t funny because, hey, it’s 2012, and something from the 1980s and 90s is just SO 20th Century. Oh, and that my daughter making a single joke transforms her into the “class clown,” a remark I do NOT appreciate.
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To say nothing of the fact that, oh yeah, the teacher laughed, which kind of blows to hëll both of your major claims about what “nobody” likes.
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Considering your attitude, however, I will leave assessments of snobbery to you, because frankly, I think you’re far more familiar with the concept than am I.
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PAD
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“Quoting Monty Pyhton in public stopped being funny (and, in fact, became actively annoying) sometime in the late 80s to mid 90s.”
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You obviously don’t work with anyone I’ve worked with in the last 12 years.
Donald, Just a tip for the future, if you have to preface a comment with “No offense..” then you shouldn’t make the comment, because it will be offensive.
You should just delete your post and try to save yourself some face…
I had the great good fortune to see The Adventures of Robin Hood as a child, one of the times it was shown “uncut, and with limited commercial interruption” on TBS. I’d never actually seen a Robin Hood film before, barring Disney’s animated version, but I knew the The opening in particular was like nothing I’d seen before, with Robin striding into the banquet room with a deer slung over his shoulders to his escape (“There’s a rogue in the castle trying to escape! Close the gates!”). It’s still the best Robin Hood movie I’ve seen (the best traditional take; Robin and Marian is pretty great, too, for it’s own reasons).
Love Errol Flynn’s Robin Hood. It’s the high bar for any story about the charecter, in my humble.
I’m I being too old manish by suggesting that the reason that so many “kids today” don’t know who these old-timey celebs are because between the net and thousands of cable channels they are spoiled by choice? I was born in 1969, and thus grew up as cable tv was developing. Our first cable box brought HBO, a French channel out of Quebeck, and a couple of local-to-Boston channels to my little town of Bath, ME. I knew who these old stars were just by word of mouth of the adults before I’d ever seen any of their films. Some of them I still only know by reputation, but I’d say they have fascinating and well earned legacies to have lasted so long.
Are the Kardashians really that much more interesting?
(okay, I’ll cop to the last comment being completely curmudgeonly. My apologies to wassername and her vapid sisters.)
Some people of younger generations won’t get pop culture references familiar to those older than them (sometimes just a few years older), but that’s by no means a truism.
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Case in point: One of my closest friends is 27 and has been a major Jack Benny fan since she was 5. Karen probably knows more about Jack Benny than some people her grandparents’ age. She’s a teacher, and Jack Benny factors into her lessons from time to time. Especially on Feb. 14, which is Jack Benny’s birthday.
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Then there’s a young woman (early 20s) who worked at Borders a few years ago. She was very into Bob Dylan, someone whom I suspect isn’t necessarily a household name among people in their early 20s.
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And sometimes younger people know more about pop culture that originated with an older generation than people of that older generation. In the early 90s, a columnist of at least middle age who wrote for a northern Michigan newspaper stated that Clayton Moore was the first actor to play the Lone Ranger.
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Hardly. Moore first played the Ranger on TV in 1949. The character originated on radio (WXYZ in Detroit) in 1933. This columnist also said that no one under the age of 35 (or something like that) had ever heard of the Lone Ranger. I wrote in to inform him of his errors. Not only did Clayton Moore not originate the role, but I was, at the time, about 26 or so, and had been familiar with the Lone Ranger for years. Of course the letter was never printed.
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Myself, I’m a huge fan of old-time radio, and of audio dramas in general. I’m probably more familiar with radio shows than a lot of people my age. Some of them don’t even know that radio once played more than music, sports and talk. (On the other hand, there’s a lot I don’t know about pop culture references that people in my age group are “supposed” to know.)
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That’s not to say audio entertainment can’t still be a viable medium. All Ears Theatre in Kalamazoo performs several “radio shows” before live audiences each spring (these are subsequently broadcast over WMUK 102.1 FM). I’ve written three radio plays for them.
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And speaking of OTR, the final Cincinnati Old-Time Radio and Nostalgia Convention will take place April 13-14 at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Blue Ash. At least the final one by the convention’s long-time organizer (it’s been going on for about 25 years now). There’s been some discussion among regular attendees as to how it might continue, and in what format.
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Sooner or later, actors who actually appeared on radio will no longer be able to come to a convention (whether because they’re too old to travel or because they’ve died), so that aspect of conventions won’t always last. I think future conventions might have a dual focus: entertain, educate and inform attendees about traditional OTR (it’s part of our cultural history); and through things like live performances of original scripts (not just scripts of shows that actually aired), show not only how such performances are done, but also that audio drama wasn’t limited to one time period.
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Audio dramas (and comedies and mysteries, and so forth) are still around. They’re just not on the radio, per se. There are the Twilight Zone Radio Dramas and the Big Finish Doctor Who audio Adventures. And probably several others.
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I also think more “regular people” who participate in the re-creations should have an opportunity to portray “starring roles.” Usually, the OTR stars themselves– such as regular Cincinnati guest Bob Hastings (who played Archie Andrews on radio, and Commissioner Gordon on Batman: The Animated Series, among other things)– play the lead parts.
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Another friend puts on radio-style productions. Some of these recently involved school age children. From all reports, the “radio show” was a big hit with the kids.
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I’ve been trying to introduce my 9-year-old nephew to radio shows, with mixed results. On the other hand, he’s fascinated by my manual typewriters.
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And speaking of not knowing certain pop culture references, back around 2000 or so, I gave my young cousins (both under 10 at the time) some Bill Cosby CDs. We hadn’t listened to them yet, but I was quoting from his “Superman” routine:
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“We find, Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter-”
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“Who’s Clark Kent?” the girls asked.
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They had no clue. Even if it were a few years later, and Smallville had already started airing, they weren’t watching it. I’ve never asked them if they ever did watch it. If so, they’d have known who Clark Kent is. But, depending on when I might have asked them, would they have known about Superman?
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I was a bit surprised that they weren’t at least familiar with the name. But then there’ve been times when I’ve been surprised to learn that adults– sometimes ones older than me– are unaware of an historical or cultural bit of information that I always assumed was common knowledge.
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But yes, I know who Madonna is. She’s the woman in that painting with the kid, right?
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Rick
“And sometimes younger people know more about pop culture that originated with an older generation than people of that older generation”
Along similar lines, John deLancie just did an appearance at Brave New Worlds in Philadelphia. The conversation turned to his voice-over work on My Little Pony. At some point, as people were listing their particular favorites of his VO work, I mentioned Agent Darkbootie from Invader ZIM. His respone?
“Did I do that?”
At the end of the documentary Smash His Camera (about notorious paparazzo Ron Galella), a woman at an exhibition of his work fails to recognize some fairly iconic actors such as Brigitte Bardot and Steve McQueen) and didn’t know who any of them were. I have a friend who (before the more recent DVD releases) walked into a video store and the dealer didn’t know who Godzilla was.
Not quite the same thing but in the general ballpark, the comic shop in Duncan, BC wears its unfamiliarity of comics like a badge of honour: they didn’t know what the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe was. Then later, less than a year after the final issue of Y the Last Man was published I was there looking for back issues. “Never heard of it.” Now these two titles I realize aren’t going to be known to the general public, but a comic shop?!?
Grr, edited in my head but not on the screen: “a woman at an exhibition of his work looked at photos of some fairly iconic actors such as Brigitte Bardot and Steve McQueen) and didn’t know who any of them were”
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Author and Screenwriter Harlan Ellison Rants about Youth and Publishing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3NeAZG_tgI
I want you to know that not only is my 9-year-old well acquainted with both Madonna & the Vogue references AND Monty Python, but she was also IN a professional regional production of Oklahoma when she was 6 years old. 🙂 Some of us take great pride in teaching our children the more important parts of life…LOL. 😉
I worked with a woman who didn’t know what Star Wars was…..
This was over 20 years ago, when I was working in the Kid’s department of a major retailer. My co-worker, younger than me (in her early 30’s) and I were talking, and I made a Star Wars referance as a joke. She was totally blank.
‘Star Wars…you know…the movie?’
Blank look.
‘It’s been on the cover of every major magazine in the world…on TV….toys….you know, right?’
‘I’ve never heard of it.’
I still can’t believe it. I can understand not seeing the films, but you have never HEARD of it??
Well, once, I made a reference about Sherlock Holmes to a colleague at work, who was a bit older than me, and he didn’t know who I was talking about. I was astounded.
I’m 33 and when I make a Monty Python joke I still get a “nudge nudge wink wink”, Know what I mean?
Say no more, say no more!
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As long as we are discussing Robin Hood, let’s not forget Erich Wolfgang Korngold who wrote the thrilling score to Robin Hood and won the Oscar for best score, and the Sea Hawk, Captain Blood, Prince and the Pauper, and many others.
Korngold basically invented film music along with Steiner, Hermann, and others.
Eh, it happens. You can’t really expect everyone to know about everybit in pop culture. I had a college class where we showed a clip from Beauty and the Beast, and a girl in there raised her hand and asked what it was as she never heard of it before. Everyone in my class was floored. Turns out her parents were the hippy types that didn’t want her watching corporate made trash or some reason like that. The discussion quickly turned to people asking her movies she had seen, and she revealed that she only just recently started watching tv, and has mostly read books her whole life.
So it happens.
I’d like to add some were very rude to her about having not seen the film. I find that commonly happens a lot with people who haven’t seen or heard about pop culture. People are very protective of what they like, and feel insulted when other aren’t in the know.
Peter, I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit and was thinking about doing an internet show in this vein – bringing younger generations up to date on some of the stuff we took for granted.