Love him or hate him, I think there’s no denying the impact he had on the world in which we live.
PAD
80 comments on “Steve Jobs”
If only we had more captains of industry like him.
Steve Jobs’ life contradicts pretty much everything Elizabeth Warren said in her recent hissy fit.
At the risk of making this political:
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Amen Darrin.
Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?
That’s required of most big corporations these days, so it doesn’t mean a thing. Jobs, in fact, cancelled most of Apple’s philanthropy endeavors when he took over in the 90s in order to make the company more profitable.
“Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?”
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Not me. No reason that it should. I don’t subscribe to “Love me, love my dogma.” philosophy.
I know that there are more than a few fans of PAD’s writing that aren’t fans of PAD’s politics.
Is this the “hissy fit” you’re referring to?
. “You built a factory out there? Good for you,” she says. “But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.”
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“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”
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Because if it is, I don’t see any contradiction with what Jobs did. Apple may have started in a garage, but it still benefited, even in those early days, from the things Warren mentions. Certainly did once it expanded beyond Jobs’ driveway.
Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?
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Nope. One difference between myself and far too many of my liberal friends (and a smaller number of my conservative ones) is that I don’t judge someone’s character negatively just because they subscribe to perfectly legitimate and defensible political beliefs shared by large numbers of people.
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I can disagree with some of his political beliefs while still celebrating his accomplishments. In fact, I can’t understand why anyone would do otherwise.
Yep, that’s the one Sean! Jobs didn’t live and work and build a corporation according to Warren’s perverse philosophy.
“Perverse philosophy”
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Objetivism, making the world a little worse since whenever Rand found psychopath murderers got her panties wet.
And of course many of you will be quick to imply or simply state that this group of apostates at the Westboro Baptist Church are demonstrative of all Christians…
Lighten up, Francis…
Yep, that’s the one Sean! Jobs didn’t live and work and build a corporation according to Warren’s perverse philosophy.
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I don’t follow you, Darin. Warren’s “perverse philosophy” as far as I can tell, is that nobody achieves a great thing without support from the larger society, and that those who achieve great things should give something back to that larger society that made their achievement possible. I fail to see anything “perverse” about that. Pretty Judeo-Christian tradition, actually.
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And I certainly don’t see how Jobs achieved what he did with Apple, NeXT, Pixar, etc. without the benefits and support provided by the rest of us. Did he not use roads? An educated workforce? etc?
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Or did he create his first computer from metals he mined himself, carting them across unpaved wilderness to a garage he built by hand from trees he’d grown on his own?
George: Here’s a bit of news I think will get everyone here on the same page.
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A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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Relevance to whether Jobs created Apple single-handedly on a remote desert island or not?
A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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Relevance to whether Jobs created Apple single-handedly on a remote desert island or not?
Well… nothing that intense I guess. Just that whatever you think of Steve Jobs accomplishments, he doesn’t deserve to have these a-holes use his funeral for their own vile agenda.
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That hardly seems worthy of explanation.
A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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That’s absolutely right. I also think they have a hëll of a nerve continuing to call themselves a Baptist church considering the Baptist Church has made it clear they want nothing to do with them. I have never met anyone, including the most right wing Christian, who think that these people are anything other than complete áššhølëš.
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PAD
George: whatever you think of Steve Jobs accomplishments, he doesn’t deserve to have these a-holes use his funeral for their own vile agenda.
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Never meant to slight Jobs’s accomplishments. I just don’t see a legitimate argument can be made that his life contradicts what Elizabeth Warren said.
As for the a-holes, nobody (except perhaps the members of Westboro) deserve to have their loved ones have to deal with anything like these a-holes.
Bill Mulligan, I’m actually hearing the Stripes theme now thanks to your post. I’m not sure if you deserve credit or blame for that.
Sean, what you and Warren and so many other leftist statists out there do not understand is that the person who builds a successful business also contributes to the roads and the police and all those things simultaneously while building said business in the form of taxes and fees. The rest of society also contributing to those roads and police and services does not give them a claim to his/her business. Those services are not an excuse to demand more of someone’s personal property, which is the mindset Warren was expressing during her hissy fit.
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Just a gentle reminder for some and pertinent info for others –
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He’s coming back strong and throwing out the usual asinine talking points, but any hopes of having meaningful discourse are at best a pipe dream.
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From the trollish dweeb himself.
. “Darin March 23, 2007 at 6:41 pm
. Guys, Guys, Guys….
. Havent you figured out what I do on these political blogs yet?
. I go in every once in a great-great while, make statements that I know most of you oppose and then when you throw up little links to provide your side with support, I just repeat myself. I ignore your links and just reiterate what I’ve said. It’s what I’ve done every. Single. Time. Here… when there is a political thread.
. Sheesh.
. Darin”
. http://www.peterdavid.net/index.php/2007/03/22/this-is-all-starting-to-sound-extremely-familiar/comment-page-2/#comment-31387
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Same catch phrases and talking points, same tactics, same drooling idiot self described troll.
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If you think this is going anywhere other than him just saying dumber and dumber things in response to intelligent debate, you’re kidding yourselves. If you know that and still want to feed the worthless little $&!^… Whatever.
Sure, embrace that notion. It beats actually coming up with a contrary response, doesn’t it, Jerry? Much easier.
El Hombre –
Yeah, Ayn Rand really was a very sick girl, no matter what you think of her philosophy, it’s hard to deny that she was fûçkëd in the head. Her crush on William Edward Hickman was pretty disturbing. A psychopath’s disregard for other people’s lives as the true sign of the Right-Wing Superman? Yikes!
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But let’s be fair here. Many icons of the Left have written some pretty disgusting things too. The beatified Che Guevara is a perfect example. The guy was a psycho killer that had wet dreams about the People sacrificing themselves in the flames of Nuclear Holocaust. And this is the guy that many leftists students worldwide have posters of in the bedrooms.
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People should know a little more about the guys they’re worshipping.
Rene, I agree with you to great deal of extent on this but there is something you miss… what you call “the left” is a construct only valid from the perspective of a die hard right winger or a naive leftist teenager. The Che is a simbol of insurrection but once it succeeded he was only a glorified thug with little else to contribute to society.
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“The Left” I know doesnt worship that guy. I dont know how it is in your country, given its past and its geopolitical circunstances, but except for some squatters and radicals, the left here doesnt align with Che. Or with Castro, for that instance.
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I on the other hand, didnt mention “The Right”, that I know to be diverse, but Objetivists because Darin here seems to acept that label, considering himself a creator, a titan of pure enlightment based on self-interest.
Che is a huge icon of the Left in Latin America. The nostalgic, romantic ideal of the 1960s revolutionary. I am not sure whether anyone really aligns with him politically, or if he’s just the Latin Left’s version of Mickey Mouse or Superman, but the guy is huge. And a sacred cow too.
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Castro, the much maligned Castro, was actually the “good cop” of the duo, the sane one.
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So hey, ideologues admiring psychos or (in the case of Ayn Rand) psycho’s cheerleaders is nothing new in my experience.
Darin: …Elizabeth Warren’s recent hissy fit…
Darin: …you and so many other leftist statists…
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When you start your comments with the labels, it’s pretty clear you aren’t really interested in discussion focused on the points actually being made.
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Case in point: what you … do not understand is that the person who builds a successful business also contributes to the roads and the police and all those things simultaneously while building said business in the form of taxes and fees. The rest of society also contributing to those roads and police and services does not give them a claim to his/her business.
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(First, good to see that you recognize others contributed to the conditions that made the one person’s success possible. That’s a notable reversal from your original comment that Jobs life contradicted Warren’s statement that that was the case.)
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Nobody said the successful person doesn’t also contribute, so you’re arguing against a case nobody made. Nor is anyone making a case that the larger society has a “claim to their business”. You’re purposely phrasing things in terms designed to make it sound like folks are taking extreme positions. When what’s really being “debated” is how large a contribution the successful person should be required to make.
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And if “Those services are not an excuse to demand more of someone’s personal property” then are you really arguing that ALL taxes should be abolished?
Darin: It beats actually coming up with a contrary response, doesn’t it
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Does seem to be the course you’re taking.
Elizabeth Warren: “You built a factory out there? Good for you,” she says. “But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for..”
Luigi Novi: The rest of us? What, Jobs was not part of “rest of us”? Didn’t he pay taxes? In fact, didn’t he not only pay more taxes than everyone on this thread put together, but even in terms of percentage of his income, since tax laws require the wealthy to do so? Warren’s ramble is predicated on an “him-versus-us” disparity where none exists. In terms of those roads, Jobs WAS one of us. It’s people like Jobs and others that invent the technology used by cops and road pavers. It’s convenience devices that he and others invented that indeed makes life easier and creates jobs for the “next kid”. If they didn’t, no one would buy them.
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If Warren really wanted to say something critical of Jobs, either now or some time after his death, then she should’ve focused on how Apple, despite benefiting the public in general, has a snotty customer service department (and overall attitude among its employees) that treats its customers with discourtesy, disrespect and dismissiveness.
Luigi: What, Jobs was not part of “rest of us”? Didn’t he pay taxes? In fact, didn’t he not only pay more taxes than everyone on this thread put together, but even in terms of percentage of his income, since tax laws require the wealthy to do so?
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I don’t think anyone is really claiming Jobs wasn’t part of the greater “rest of us”. Yes, he was. And yes, he did pay taxes, most likely more than many of us combined. But the debate really is how much should folks pay in taxes. And on one side are those who believe those who have benefited greatly in our society should pay more than they have been.
I never owned a single Apple product. But still feel the effect of his innovations. And he made some of my favorite movies.
And he made some of my favorite movies.
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Jobs could draw?
Jobs gets some credit for the technical side of Pixar, but Andrew Stanton, John Lasseter, Brad Byrd et al. deserve to be included creatively in any credit regarding who “made” those movies.
More impact than most people will ever have, less than his fans (he had clients and then he had fans) credit him for. Great at marketing but in the long run he comes off as kind of a jerk. Not in a big way but kind of by accumulation. But then that was only his public face, I am sure he wasnt allways like that.
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Rest in Peace
I’ve never been much of an Apple fan. I’ve got a 5-year old iPod, and while I use iTunes with it, I’ve tried any number of programs in recent months in an attempt to replace what has become bloatware.
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So, do I deny his impact? No, not at all. The man certainly knew innovation and how to sell a product.
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But, since I have a lot of online friends who are Apple die-hards, I’m seeing a lot of over the top reactions to his passing that make me cringe. One web cartoonist compared the impact of Jobs’ passing to John Lennon, which apparently a lot of people on Twitter rightfully felt was quite absurd.
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My wife just said something that made me think though: If (Bill) Gates died, I don’t think there would be this kind of reaction.
“One web cartoonist compared the impact of Jobs’ passing to John Lennon, which apparently a lot of people on Twitter rightfully felt was quite absurd.”
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Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope, when he had clearly alienated a lot of Beatles fans the last decade of his life and hadn’t even had a hit record in years befor 180’s “Double Fantasy”.
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Jobs helped change the way everyone, of every stripe, used computers, listened to music and was able to access information with the iPhone.
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He was our Edison. So much so, the fact he was integral to the creation of Pixar and the revolution in animation, is merely a footnote to his story.
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He dropped out of college to save his parents money and became successful anyway. He launched an innovative company, got kicked out, and used the time to be even more creative and when brought back was even more successful still.
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Oh, and he faced a decade looking cancer in the face and staring it down the best he could while being vital until the end.
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Oh, and he was adopted.
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Jobs’ story is a great American story. heck, his story is a life-affirming HUMAN example of overcoming setbacks, reaching one’s potential and always looking for new ideas and challenges.
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He is truly irreplaceable and one of the few whose greatness was recognized while they were alive.
Lennon was murdered.
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I don’t think you need much more than that.
If Mr. Jobs was our Edison, who will be our Tesla?
Very nicely put Jerome.
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I was born in 1951 so the Beatles are the prime musical icons of my generation. When Lennon was killed it was shocking and signaled the end of a generation’s childhood.
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But Steve Jobs affects my day to day life more. I have the job I have, (production artist in a marketing department), because of Macintosh. I am using one now. I have an iMac at home, an iPhone in my pocket and the iPad I gave my wife for her birthday last year is the best present I’ve gotten her in the 25 years of marriage, even including jewelry. His death was not much of surprise but I think it is a bigger loss.
Jerome Maida: “Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope…”
Luigi Novi Assassination does not require a political element, although it is commonly given as the primary example. Merriam-Webster, for example, defines it as “to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously” and before it gives the secondary definition that includes a political element. Other sources I found incorporate it as the primary example in the primary definition, or emphasize other elements, such as fame or prominence of the target, or being hired to commit the act.
Jerome Maida: “Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope…”
Luigi Novi Assassination does not require a political element, although it is commonly given as the primary example. Merriam-Webster, for example, defines it as “to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously” and before it gives the secondary definition that includes a political element. Other sources I found incorporate it as the primary example in the primary definition, or emphasize other elements, such as fame or prominence of the target, or being hired to commit the act.
Point taken, Luigi. I did not know that.
At the funeral will he be wearing the tux labeled “iDead”?
Nope a black turtleneck tee shirt and jeans….in death the way he was in life…
Good point John, I forgot all about that as I never was into the whole “cult of Jobs”.
He and Gates both accomplished a lot in the world oif computers and consumer electronics. Jobs had a lot more charisma behind him tho.
I forgot all about that as I never was into the whole “cult of Jobs”.
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And what a cult it is!
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About an hour ago I posted a Gawker article titled “Steve Jobs was not God” on my Facebook page. 30 minutes ago somebody I personally know and who is a big Apple fan dropped me as a Facebook friend. I think it’s safe to say the two things are related.
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On the other hand, the ‘Cult of Jobs’ is far from the only one. I’m also a big Chicago Bears fan. And boy was I cringing over the reactions from many silly Bears fans over the excerpt to the now-released biography that was written about Walter Payton.
As I said, not an Apple user, but..
The IPod changed the music industry forever.
The IPhone changed the cell phone…
The IPad is the future of computing.
Pixar changed animation.
And let’s not forget the original Apple is responsible for making the home PC viable.
I don’t think we can underestimate his impact.
The IPad is the future of computing.
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Not even close. As of right now, the iPad and all the likes are toys. Period. I would say that Windows Surface is closer to the future of computing.
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The iPad is cute, but definitely not the future of computing. It’s probably closer to say that it’s the future of handheld computing.
TAC
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I would tend to agree.
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Jobs was brilliant at what he did, but a large part of what he did and did well in the last decade was to create pre-release buzz for his products, make people believe that they were the mega-trendy must haves of the moment and create markets for his products that probably wouldn’t exist without the hype machine that he helped to create for them.
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I like my iPod Classic that I got for Christmas 2009 (the first and only i-anything I own) because it’s more convenient than walking around with a Sony Walkman and 100 CDs, but I’ve never seen the need for all of the other iProducts. And the iPad craze especially really failed to impress me. I have friends who own iPads and, to save my life, I have no idea how they’re supposed to be such hot stuff. For the price of an iPad or less, you can get a small laptop that will do pretty much everything it’ll do and more.
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The iPhone is nice and kinda cool, but 9 out of 10 people I know who have the things barely use them as anything other than a cell phone most of the time. And when they are using some of the other functions, they’re using them to mess around when they should be doing something else.
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Pixar made popular films, but they didn’t change animation. We were already seeing the push for computer generated animation before the first Toy Story came out. Saying that Pixar changed animation forever is like saying Warner Brothers changed film making forever because they had really popular films with sound and then later with color. The shift was already happening and would do so without them. They just made some big films early on in the new techs development.
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None of which takes away from the fact that Jobs was brilliant. He helped pioneer and redefine the home computer industry and was one of the minds that got 50’s, 60’s and 70’s science fiction closer to be science fact. And, again, he certainly showed an amazing level of brilliance in promotion and marketing.
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Brilliant, brilliant man and gone too soon.
Let’s talk in 5 to 10 years.
I think most phones will be touch screen smart phones and he tablet computer will be in more than half the homes. (you can split hairs if you want.)
Sorry to be clueless here, but why would anybody hate him?
People need reasons?
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PAD
Because he was rich, intelligent and successful. those seem to be valid reasons, sadly, for a lot of people.
Because he was an arrogant, manipulative jerk?
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That’s a little stronger than my actual opinion, but not much. I was pretty much an Apple fanboy till Jobs and a couple of his sycophants killed off the best Apple II design ever (the IIgs), partly because it was cannibalising low-end Mac sales (it out-performed Macs costing two or three times as much), and because it was all Woz’s baby and Jobs hadn’t had a chance to pee in it.
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As a result of that, i became neutral-with-an-anti-Apple-bias overall, and strongly anti-Jobs.
“And let’s not forget the original Apple is responsible for making the home PC viable”
I thought the original apple was responsible for us getting kicked out of the garden of eden?
Cant afford many apple products but I am cuddling up with a black tutle neck today to honor him.
While Western Christian art often depicts the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as an apple, other sources identify it as a grape or pomegranate.
“but I am cuddling up with a black tutle neck today to honor him”
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And imo this is a little creepy.
I’m of the opinion that he actually died before the iPhone 4S announcement and the family/company held off on letting people know so as not to put a damper or delay on the product release.
I’m of the opinion…
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Based on … ?
Mostly the coincidental timing of both announcements. Not trying to pass it along as fact.
I’d pass it off as coincidence and not suggest anything suspicious. Too many people already too quick to see conspiracies in everything.
Several in the tech press have speculated that, while the event had been scheduled some time in advance, the overall lower-pitch level of typical Apple presentation and boosterism of the actual event may have been influenced by his death.
Or by a lower-key pitchman now being in charge.
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But let’s not let that stop us from looking for more suspicious activities. After all, where’s the fun in being reasonable?
You should have gone the Herman Cain route: “Now I don’t have facts to back this up, but…”
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PAD
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Yeah, that was a classic line and then some.
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Yep. It’s the new “Not intended to be a factual statement.”
I think the comparison with Edison is appropiate; he was bright, innovative and had a talent when it comes to using scientific and technological discoveries to solve problems or create new consumer needs. Just like edison.
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Also, as Edison, he was kind of a self absorved jerk, a tyrant (said even in the nicest ways by old employees and associates) for whom only his vision and profit mattered. And, as Edison, he is beign elevated way above his actual genius because he was a success at making money. A true objetivist hero.
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Me? I found out in 2004 that Gates is the Man.
“only his vision and profit mattered.”
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So he saw what people would want before they even knew it and, when proven correct, made a lot of money as a result.
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I wish we had a million more like him.
he saw what people would want before they even knew it
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The argument could also be made that he told people what they should want. I’ve had a few Apple products over the years and one consistent theme has been they work the way Apple wants them to with limited flexibility for allowing a user to deviate from that.
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There may be a great deal of “what works best for the user” behind their functionality. But once Apple’s decided what that is, that is what it is.
There is a reason (beyond price) for Mac’s inability to capture a larger share of the market; it’s total disregard for the client’s changing needs. A Mac is fine if you are in the graphic design and audiovisual fields or if you just need a machine to browse internet and edit texts. Expensive machine, but as good as the best PCs around. Prettier tho. Just beware the next Photoshop version may not it blow your Mac’s brains.
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Meanwhile, me not beign even a very acomplished or crafty PC user, have been able to upgrade the same machine for use as a student, gamer and later profesional use from y home office, through 8 years of reliable and profitable performance. And all that for less money than any Mac computer that wouldnt even have been able to run AutoCAD. Or any of the other 6 programs I used to make a living.
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And you might say “well, he didnt have to cater to YOUR needs specifically” and you might be right. But he didnt cater to anyone needs. He crafted good, reliable machines that were good enough for a minority and then told that minority they were special, the face of the future. Cool, unlike the ugly people who debased themselves with petty issues like price, flexibility or long term budget.
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Regarding iPods… Sony created the portable devices and before Jobs, there were many portable devices able to play mp3 formats from CD or minidisc. Jobs only created a device that didnt need the CD and thus was smaller…well, not smaller that a mini disc player for some years, at least. And even at that, Soundblaster’s Zen was better. My first one is like 7 years old and its battery lasts more than a week on a 3hrd daily use basis. Not that many people know about Zen tho, wich speaks volumes about Jobs’ skill as a marketer, that I give to you.
The argument could also be made that he told people what they should want.
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If it were only that easy. We’d drive our Edsels to the store to buy a bottle of Touch of Yogurt Shampoo, drinking a can of Crystal Pepsi while listening to our Zune. The I’d go home and watch the latest episode of The Playboy Club on my Microsoft WebTV, followed by a repeat of one of the classic STEEL JUSTICE episodes from it’s sixth (and some say best) season.
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My wife makes a delicious meal of Frank’n Stuff and I Hate Peas! on the side. Life is good.
For years I used a Palm Pilot. I had something like 4-5 versions over close to 15 years. It did everything I needed and synched between desktop and handheld like a charm. Delete or edit something on one, press a single button, the delete or change happens on the other.
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For the last year I’ve had an iPhone. It’s calendar and contact list don’t provide some of the features I use, yet I can’t get rid of them. I delete a podcast I’ve listened to from the iPhone, then “sync” with my desktop and, viola!, they’re back on my iPhone.
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Why can’t I get rid of apps I don’t need?
Why is “sync” really a one-way overwrite?
Is Apple telling me how I should want it to work?
‘Cause they sure aren’t letting me tell them.
Apple III
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Lisa
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NeXT
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Apple Newton.
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All great successes.
You point being…?
Glad I am not the only one who sees things this way.
Well he certainly went out at his peak, not many people get to say that in there life. Between the IPad swarming the market from the get go when every1 thought the tablet market was a gimmick, to the IPhone set to hit just about every other major cell carrier, he certainly has his hand in just about every consumer tech out there, directly or inderectly.
Conservatives that admire someone just because they made a lot of money and Liberals that hate someone just because they made a lot of money. I think they’re all the same kind of idiot.
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As for Jobs and Lennon? That is apples (haha) and oranges.
At work during the 1990s, I used a Mac SE-30, then a Power Mac, and hated the former but loved the latter. I always wanted to buy a Mac for personal use, but every time I looked at one it was financially out of reach, and for a long time, converting from PC to Mac would also have stuck me with a bunch of expensive, unuseable PC software. But since I’ve rooted for Apple from afar all of these years, it’s probably a given that I will, in fact, end up with an Apple laptop one of these days. As for other Apple devices, I use my iPod nearly every day. Thanks, Steve. Not only did you help create some of the greatest gadgets in history, you made geekiness cool.
O/T, but PAD, Charles Napier also died. For those less geeky than PAD, he was “Adam the space hippie” in “The Way To Eden,” as well as a LOT of other very famous roles. Two others stand out in my memory: Duke, Jay’s boss, in “The Critic,” and the lead singer of the country/western band in “The Blues Brothers.”
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J.
Mr. Napier was the voice of Z in the Men in Black cartoon. R.I.P. Z
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If only we had more captains of industry like him.
Steve Jobs’ life contradicts pretty much everything Elizabeth Warren said in her recent hissy fit.
At the risk of making this political:
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Amen Darrin.
Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?
That’s required of most big corporations these days, so it doesn’t mean a thing. Jobs, in fact, cancelled most of Apple’s philanthropy endeavors when he took over in the 90s in order to make the company more profitable.
“Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?”
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Not me. No reason that it should. I don’t subscribe to “Love me, love my dogma.” philosophy.
I know that there are more than a few fans of PAD’s writing that aren’t fans of PAD’s politics.
Is this the “hissy fit” you’re referring to?
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“You built a factory out there? Good for you,” she says. “But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.”
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“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”
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Because if it is, I don’t see any contradiction with what Jobs did. Apple may have started in a garage, but it still benefited, even in those early days, from the things Warren mentions. Certainly did once it expanded beyond Jobs’ driveway.
Would it bother you that Jobs’ political donations are pretty much in line with Warren?
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Nope. One difference between myself and far too many of my liberal friends (and a smaller number of my conservative ones) is that I don’t judge someone’s character negatively just because they subscribe to perfectly legitimate and defensible political beliefs shared by large numbers of people.
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I can disagree with some of his political beliefs while still celebrating his accomplishments. In fact, I can’t understand why anyone would do otherwise.
Yep, that’s the one Sean! Jobs didn’t live and work and build a corporation according to Warren’s perverse philosophy.
“Perverse philosophy”
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Objetivism, making the world a little worse since whenever Rand found psychopath murderers got her panties wet.
Here’s a bit of news I think will get everyone here on the same page.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/westboro-baptist-church-uses-iphone-to-announce-steve-jobs-funeral-protest/2011/10/06/gIQAJqBjPL_blog.html
And of course many of you will be quick to imply or simply state that this group of apostates at the Westboro Baptist Church are demonstrative of all Christians…
Lighten up, Francis…
Yep, that’s the one Sean! Jobs didn’t live and work and build a corporation according to Warren’s perverse philosophy.
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I don’t follow you, Darin. Warren’s “perverse philosophy” as far as I can tell, is that nobody achieves a great thing without support from the larger society, and that those who achieve great things should give something back to that larger society that made their achievement possible. I fail to see anything “perverse” about that. Pretty Judeo-Christian tradition, actually.
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And I certainly don’t see how Jobs achieved what he did with Apple, NeXT, Pixar, etc. without the benefits and support provided by the rest of us. Did he not use roads? An educated workforce? etc?
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Or did he create his first computer from metals he mined himself, carting them across unpaved wilderness to a garage he built by hand from trees he’d grown on his own?
George: Here’s a bit of news I think will get everyone here on the same page.
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A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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Relevance to whether Jobs created Apple single-handedly on a remote desert island or not?
A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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Relevance to whether Jobs created Apple single-handedly on a remote desert island or not?
Well… nothing that intense I guess. Just that whatever you think of Steve Jobs accomplishments, he doesn’t deserve to have these a-holes use his funeral for their own vile agenda.
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That hardly seems worthy of explanation.
A bunch of inbred, hypocritical attention-seekers are being hypocritical attention-seekers.
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That’s absolutely right. I also think they have a hëll of a nerve continuing to call themselves a Baptist church considering the Baptist Church has made it clear they want nothing to do with them. I have never met anyone, including the most right wing Christian, who think that these people are anything other than complete áššhølëš.
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PAD
George: whatever you think of Steve Jobs accomplishments, he doesn’t deserve to have these a-holes use his funeral for their own vile agenda.
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Never meant to slight Jobs’s accomplishments. I just don’t see a legitimate argument can be made that his life contradicts what Elizabeth Warren said.
As for the a-holes, nobody (except perhaps the members of Westboro) deserve to have their loved ones have to deal with anything like these a-holes.
Bill Mulligan, I’m actually hearing the Stripes theme now thanks to your post. I’m not sure if you deserve credit or blame for that.
Sean, what you and Warren and so many other leftist statists out there do not understand is that the person who builds a successful business also contributes to the roads and the police and all those things simultaneously while building said business in the form of taxes and fees. The rest of society also contributing to those roads and police and services does not give them a claim to his/her business. Those services are not an excuse to demand more of someone’s personal property, which is the mindset Warren was expressing during her hissy fit.
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Just a gentle reminder for some and pertinent info for others –
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He’s coming back strong and throwing out the usual asinine talking points, but any hopes of having meaningful discourse are at best a pipe dream.
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From the trollish dweeb himself.
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“Darin
March 23, 2007 at 6:41 pm
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Guys, Guys, Guys….
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Havent you figured out what I do on these political blogs yet?
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I go in every once in a great-great while, make statements that I know most of you oppose and then when you throw up little links to provide your side with support, I just repeat myself. I ignore your links and just reiterate what I’ve said. It’s what I’ve done every. Single. Time. Here… when there is a political thread.
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Sheesh.
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Darin”
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http://www.peterdavid.net/index.php/2007/03/22/this-is-all-starting-to-sound-extremely-familiar/comment-page-2/#comment-31387
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Same catch phrases and talking points, same tactics, same drooling idiot self described troll.
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If you think this is going anywhere other than him just saying dumber and dumber things in response to intelligent debate, you’re kidding yourselves. If you know that and still want to feed the worthless little $&!^… Whatever.
Sure, embrace that notion. It beats actually coming up with a contrary response, doesn’t it, Jerry? Much easier.
El Hombre –
Yeah, Ayn Rand really was a very sick girl, no matter what you think of her philosophy, it’s hard to deny that she was fûçkëd in the head. Her crush on William Edward Hickman was pretty disturbing. A psychopath’s disregard for other people’s lives as the true sign of the Right-Wing Superman? Yikes!
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But let’s be fair here. Many icons of the Left have written some pretty disgusting things too. The beatified Che Guevara is a perfect example. The guy was a psycho killer that had wet dreams about the People sacrificing themselves in the flames of Nuclear Holocaust. And this is the guy that many leftists students worldwide have posters of in the bedrooms.
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People should know a little more about the guys they’re worshipping.
Rene, I agree with you to great deal of extent on this but there is something you miss… what you call “the left” is a construct only valid from the perspective of a die hard right winger or a naive leftist teenager. The Che is a simbol of insurrection but once it succeeded he was only a glorified thug with little else to contribute to society.
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“The Left” I know doesnt worship that guy. I dont know how it is in your country, given its past and its geopolitical circunstances, but except for some squatters and radicals, the left here doesnt align with Che. Or with Castro, for that instance.
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I on the other hand, didnt mention “The Right”, that I know to be diverse, but Objetivists because Darin here seems to acept that label, considering himself a creator, a titan of pure enlightment based on self-interest.
Che is a huge icon of the Left in Latin America. The nostalgic, romantic ideal of the 1960s revolutionary. I am not sure whether anyone really aligns with him politically, or if he’s just the Latin Left’s version of Mickey Mouse or Superman, but the guy is huge. And a sacred cow too.
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Castro, the much maligned Castro, was actually the “good cop” of the duo, the sane one.
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So hey, ideologues admiring psychos or (in the case of Ayn Rand) psycho’s cheerleaders is nothing new in my experience.
Darin: …Elizabeth Warren’s recent hissy fit…
Darin: …you and so many other leftist statists…
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When you start your comments with the labels, it’s pretty clear you aren’t really interested in discussion focused on the points actually being made.
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Case in point:
what you … do not understand is that the person who builds a successful business also contributes to the roads and the police and all those things simultaneously while building said business in the form of taxes and fees. The rest of society also contributing to those roads and police and services does not give them a claim to his/her business.
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(First, good to see that you recognize others contributed to the conditions that made the one person’s success possible. That’s a notable reversal from your original comment that Jobs life contradicted Warren’s statement that that was the case.)
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Nobody said the successful person doesn’t also contribute, so you’re arguing against a case nobody made. Nor is anyone making a case that the larger society has a “claim to their business”. You’re purposely phrasing things in terms designed to make it sound like folks are taking extreme positions. When what’s really being “debated” is how large a contribution the successful person should be required to make.
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And if “Those services are not an excuse to demand more of someone’s personal property” then are you really arguing that ALL taxes should be abolished?
Darin: It beats actually coming up with a contrary response, doesn’t it
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Does seem to be the course you’re taking.
Elizabeth Warren: “You built a factory out there? Good for you,” she says. “But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for..”
Luigi Novi: The rest of us? What, Jobs was not part of “rest of us”? Didn’t he pay taxes? In fact, didn’t he not only pay more taxes than everyone on this thread put together, but even in terms of percentage of his income, since tax laws require the wealthy to do so? Warren’s ramble is predicated on an “him-versus-us” disparity where none exists. In terms of those roads, Jobs WAS one of us. It’s people like Jobs and others that invent the technology used by cops and road pavers. It’s convenience devices that he and others invented that indeed makes life easier and creates jobs for the “next kid”. If they didn’t, no one would buy them.
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If Warren really wanted to say something critical of Jobs, either now or some time after his death, then she should’ve focused on how Apple, despite benefiting the public in general, has a snotty customer service department (and overall attitude among its employees) that treats its customers with discourtesy, disrespect and dismissiveness.
Luigi: What, Jobs was not part of “rest of us”? Didn’t he pay taxes? In fact, didn’t he not only pay more taxes than everyone on this thread put together, but even in terms of percentage of his income, since tax laws require the wealthy to do so?
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I don’t think anyone is really claiming Jobs wasn’t part of the greater “rest of us”. Yes, he was. And yes, he did pay taxes, most likely more than many of us combined. But the debate really is how much should folks pay in taxes. And on one side are those who believe those who have benefited greatly in our society should pay more than they have been.
I never owned a single Apple product. But still feel the effect of his innovations. And he made some of my favorite movies.
And he made some of my favorite movies.
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Jobs could draw?
Jobs gets some credit for the technical side of Pixar, but Andrew Stanton, John Lasseter, Brad Byrd et al. deserve to be included creatively in any credit regarding who “made” those movies.
More impact than most people will ever have, less than his fans (he had clients and then he had fans) credit him for. Great at marketing but in the long run he comes off as kind of a jerk. Not in a big way but kind of by accumulation. But then that was only his public face, I am sure he wasnt allways like that.
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Rest in Peace
I’ve never been much of an Apple fan. I’ve got a 5-year old iPod, and while I use iTunes with it, I’ve tried any number of programs in recent months in an attempt to replace what has become bloatware.
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So, do I deny his impact? No, not at all. The man certainly knew innovation and how to sell a product.
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But, since I have a lot of online friends who are Apple die-hards, I’m seeing a lot of over the top reactions to his passing that make me cringe. One web cartoonist compared the impact of Jobs’ passing to John Lennon, which apparently a lot of people on Twitter rightfully felt was quite absurd.
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My wife just said something that made me think though: If (Bill) Gates died, I don’t think there would be this kind of reaction.
“One web cartoonist compared the impact of Jobs’ passing to John Lennon, which apparently a lot of people on Twitter rightfully felt was quite absurd.”
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Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope, when he had clearly alienated a lot of Beatles fans the last decade of his life and hadn’t even had a hit record in years befor 180’s “Double Fantasy”.
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Jobs helped change the way everyone, of every stripe, used computers, listened to music and was able to access information with the iPhone.
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He was our Edison. So much so, the fact he was integral to the creation of Pixar and the revolution in animation, is merely a footnote to his story.
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He dropped out of college to save his parents money and became successful anyway. He launched an innovative company, got kicked out, and used the time to be even more creative and when brought back was even more successful still.
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Oh, and he faced a decade looking cancer in the face and staring it down the best he could while being vital until the end.
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Oh, and he was adopted.
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Jobs’ story is a great American story. heck, his story is a life-affirming HUMAN example of overcoming setbacks, reaching one’s potential and always looking for new ideas and challenges.
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He is truly irreplaceable and one of the few whose greatness was recognized while they were alive.
Lennon was murdered.
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I don’t think you need much more than that.
If Mr. Jobs was our Edison, who will be our Tesla?
Very nicely put Jerome.
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I was born in 1951 so the Beatles are the prime musical icons of my generation. When Lennon was killed it was shocking and signaled the end of a generation’s childhood.
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But Steve Jobs affects my day to day life more. I have the job I have, (production artist in a marketing department), because of Macintosh. I am using one now. I have an iMac at home, an iPhone in my pocket and the iPad I gave my wife for her birthday last year is the best present I’ve gotten her in the 25 years of marriage, even including jewelry. His death was not much of surprise but I think it is a bigger loss.
Jerome Maida: “Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope…”
Luigi Novi Assassination does not require a political element, although it is commonly given as the primary example. Merriam-Webster, for example, defines it as “to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously” and before it gives the secondary definition that includes a political element. Other sources I found incorporate it as the primary example in the primary definition, or emphasize other elements, such as fame or prominence of the target, or being hired to commit the act.
Sources:
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assassination
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassinate.
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http://www.yourdictionary.com/assassinate
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http://hir.harvard.edu/leadership/on-the-offensive
Jerome Maida: “Well, then the people on Twitter are absurd, unless they meant the cringed at the coverage of Lennon’s death, where he was described as being assassinated, as if he was somehow on par with the POTUS and the Pope…”
Luigi Novi Assassination does not require a political element, although it is commonly given as the primary example. Merriam-Webster, for example, defines it as “to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously” and before it gives the secondary definition that includes a political element. Other sources I found incorporate it as the primary example in the primary definition, or emphasize other elements, such as fame or prominence of the target, or being hired to commit the act.
Point taken, Luigi. I did not know that.
At the funeral will he be wearing the tux labeled “iDead”?
Nope a black turtleneck tee shirt and jeans….in death the way he was in life…
Good point John, I forgot all about that as I never was into the whole “cult of Jobs”.
He and Gates both accomplished a lot in the world oif computers and consumer electronics. Jobs had a lot more charisma behind him tho.
I forgot all about that as I never was into the whole “cult of Jobs”.
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And what a cult it is!
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About an hour ago I posted a Gawker article titled “Steve Jobs was not God” on my Facebook page. 30 minutes ago somebody I personally know and who is a big Apple fan dropped me as a Facebook friend. I think it’s safe to say the two things are related.
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On the other hand, the ‘Cult of Jobs’ is far from the only one. I’m also a big Chicago Bears fan. And boy was I cringing over the reactions from many silly Bears fans over the excerpt to the now-released biography that was written about Walter Payton.
As I said, not an Apple user, but..
The IPod changed the music industry forever.
The IPhone changed the cell phone…
The IPad is the future of computing.
Pixar changed animation.
And let’s not forget the original Apple is responsible for making the home PC viable.
I don’t think we can underestimate his impact.
The IPad is the future of computing.
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Not even close. As of right now, the iPad and all the likes are toys. Period. I would say that Windows Surface is closer to the future of computing.
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The iPad is cute, but definitely not the future of computing. It’s probably closer to say that it’s the future of handheld computing.
TAC
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I would tend to agree.
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Jobs was brilliant at what he did, but a large part of what he did and did well in the last decade was to create pre-release buzz for his products, make people believe that they were the mega-trendy must haves of the moment and create markets for his products that probably wouldn’t exist without the hype machine that he helped to create for them.
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I like my iPod Classic that I got for Christmas 2009 (the first and only i-anything I own) because it’s more convenient than walking around with a Sony Walkman and 100 CDs, but I’ve never seen the need for all of the other iProducts. And the iPad craze especially really failed to impress me. I have friends who own iPads and, to save my life, I have no idea how they’re supposed to be such hot stuff. For the price of an iPad or less, you can get a small laptop that will do pretty much everything it’ll do and more.
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The iPhone is nice and kinda cool, but 9 out of 10 people I know who have the things barely use them as anything other than a cell phone most of the time. And when they are using some of the other functions, they’re using them to mess around when they should be doing something else.
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Pixar made popular films, but they didn’t change animation. We were already seeing the push for computer generated animation before the first Toy Story came out. Saying that Pixar changed animation forever is like saying Warner Brothers changed film making forever because they had really popular films with sound and then later with color. The shift was already happening and would do so without them. They just made some big films early on in the new techs development.
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None of which takes away from the fact that Jobs was brilliant. He helped pioneer and redefine the home computer industry and was one of the minds that got 50’s, 60’s and 70’s science fiction closer to be science fact. And, again, he certainly showed an amazing level of brilliance in promotion and marketing.
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Brilliant, brilliant man and gone too soon.
Let’s talk in 5 to 10 years.
I think most phones will be touch screen smart phones and he tablet computer will be in more than half the homes. (you can split hairs if you want.)
Sorry to be clueless here, but why would anybody hate him?
People need reasons?
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PAD
Because he was rich, intelligent and successful. those seem to be valid reasons, sadly, for a lot of people.
Because he was an arrogant, manipulative jerk?
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That’s a little stronger than my actual opinion, but not much. I was pretty much an Apple fanboy till Jobs and a couple of his sycophants killed off the best Apple II design ever (the IIgs), partly because it was cannibalising low-end Mac sales (it out-performed Macs costing two or three times as much), and because it was all Woz’s baby and Jobs hadn’t had a chance to pee in it.
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As a result of that, i became neutral-with-an-anti-Apple-bias overall, and strongly anti-Jobs.
“And let’s not forget the original Apple is responsible for making the home PC viable”
I thought the original apple was responsible for us getting kicked out of the garden of eden?
Cant afford many apple products but I am cuddling up with a black tutle neck today to honor him.
While Western Christian art often depicts the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as an apple, other sources identify it as a grape or pomegranate.
“but I am cuddling up with a black tutle neck today to honor him”
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And imo this is a little creepy.
I’m of the opinion that he actually died before the iPhone 4S announcement and the family/company held off on letting people know so as not to put a damper or delay on the product release.
I’m of the opinion…
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Based on … ?
Mostly the coincidental timing of both announcements. Not trying to pass it along as fact.
I’d pass it off as coincidence and not suggest anything suspicious. Too many people already too quick to see conspiracies in everything.
Several in the tech press have speculated that, while the event had been scheduled some time in advance, the overall lower-pitch level of typical Apple presentation and boosterism of the actual event may have been influenced by his death.
Or by a lower-key pitchman now being in charge.
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But let’s not let that stop us from looking for more suspicious activities. After all, where’s the fun in being reasonable?
You should have gone the Herman Cain route: “Now I don’t have facts to back this up, but…”
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PAD
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Yeah, that was a classic line and then some.
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Yep. It’s the new “Not intended to be a factual statement.”
I think the comparison with Edison is appropiate; he was bright, innovative and had a talent when it comes to using scientific and technological discoveries to solve problems or create new consumer needs. Just like edison.
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Also, as Edison, he was kind of a self absorved jerk, a tyrant (said even in the nicest ways by old employees and associates) for whom only his vision and profit mattered. And, as Edison, he is beign elevated way above his actual genius because he was a success at making money. A true objetivist hero.
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Me? I found out in 2004 that Gates is the Man.
“only his vision and profit mattered.”
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So he saw what people would want before they even knew it and, when proven correct, made a lot of money as a result.
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I wish we had a million more like him.
he saw what people would want before they even knew it
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The argument could also be made that he told people what they should want. I’ve had a few Apple products over the years and one consistent theme has been they work the way Apple wants them to with limited flexibility for allowing a user to deviate from that.
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There may be a great deal of “what works best for the user” behind their functionality. But once Apple’s decided what that is, that is what it is.
There is a reason (beyond price) for Mac’s inability to capture a larger share of the market; it’s total disregard for the client’s changing needs. A Mac is fine if you are in the graphic design and audiovisual fields or if you just need a machine to browse internet and edit texts. Expensive machine, but as good as the best PCs around. Prettier tho. Just beware the next Photoshop version may not it blow your Mac’s brains.
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Meanwhile, me not beign even a very acomplished or crafty PC user, have been able to upgrade the same machine for use as a student, gamer and later profesional use from y home office, through 8 years of reliable and profitable performance. And all that for less money than any Mac computer that wouldnt even have been able to run AutoCAD. Or any of the other 6 programs I used to make a living.
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And you might say “well, he didnt have to cater to YOUR needs specifically” and you might be right. But he didnt cater to anyone needs. He crafted good, reliable machines that were good enough for a minority and then told that minority they were special, the face of the future. Cool, unlike the ugly people who debased themselves with petty issues like price, flexibility or long term budget.
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Regarding iPods… Sony created the portable devices and before Jobs, there were many portable devices able to play mp3 formats from CD or minidisc. Jobs only created a device that didnt need the CD and thus was smaller…well, not smaller that a mini disc player for some years, at least. And even at that, Soundblaster’s Zen was better. My first one is like 7 years old and its battery lasts more than a week on a 3hrd daily use basis. Not that many people know about Zen tho, wich speaks volumes about Jobs’ skill as a marketer, that I give to you.
The argument could also be made that he told people what they should want.
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If it were only that easy. We’d drive our Edsels to the store to buy a bottle of Touch of Yogurt Shampoo, drinking a can of Crystal Pepsi while listening to our Zune. The I’d go home and watch the latest episode of The Playboy Club on my Microsoft WebTV, followed by a repeat of one of the classic STEEL JUSTICE episodes from it’s sixth (and some say best) season.
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My wife makes a delicious meal of Frank’n Stuff and I Hate Peas! on the side. Life is good.
For years I used a Palm Pilot. I had something like 4-5 versions over close to 15 years. It did everything I needed and synched between desktop and handheld like a charm. Delete or edit something on one, press a single button, the delete or change happens on the other.
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For the last year I’ve had an iPhone. It’s calendar and contact list don’t provide some of the features I use, yet I can’t get rid of them. I delete a podcast I’ve listened to from the iPhone, then “sync” with my desktop and, viola!, they’re back on my iPhone.
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Why can’t I get rid of apps I don’t need?
Why is “sync” really a one-way overwrite?
Is Apple telling me how I should want it to work?
‘Cause they sure aren’t letting me tell them.
Apple III
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Lisa
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NeXT
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Apple Newton.
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All great successes.
You point being…?
Glad I am not the only one who sees things this way.
Well he certainly went out at his peak, not many people get to say that in there life. Between the IPad swarming the market from the get go when every1 thought the tablet market was a gimmick, to the IPhone set to hit just about every other major cell carrier, he certainly has his hand in just about every consumer tech out there, directly or inderectly.
Conservatives that admire someone just because they made a lot of money and Liberals that hate someone just because they made a lot of money. I think they’re all the same kind of idiot.
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As for Jobs and Lennon? That is apples (haha) and oranges.
At work during the 1990s, I used a Mac SE-30, then a Power Mac, and hated the former but loved the latter. I always wanted to buy a Mac for personal use, but every time I looked at one it was financially out of reach, and for a long time, converting from PC to Mac would also have stuck me with a bunch of expensive, unuseable PC software. But since I’ve rooted for Apple from afar all of these years, it’s probably a given that I will, in fact, end up with an Apple laptop one of these days. As for other Apple devices, I use my iPod nearly every day. Thanks, Steve. Not only did you help create some of the greatest gadgets in history, you made geekiness cool.
O/T, but PAD, Charles Napier also died. For those less geeky than PAD, he was “Adam the space hippie” in “The Way To Eden,” as well as a LOT of other very famous roles. Two others stand out in my memory: Duke, Jay’s boss, in “The Critic,” and the lead singer of the country/western band in “The Blues Brothers.”
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J.
Mr. Napier was the voice of Z in the Men in Black cartoon. R.I.P. Z