Political Correctness and other topics

85 comments on “Political Correctness and other topics”

1. PAD said: “I saw a number of tributes to Jack Kirby end with the line, “The King is dead. Long live the King!” A traditional line since it mourns the passing of one monarch, and the advent of a new one.
   .
   May I ask, just out of a morbid sense of curiosity, who the new king of comics is supposed to be? It’s certainly not immediately evident to me.”
   .
   My interpretation is an easy one. Jack Kirby has passed on, but his legacy will live forever. He CANNOT be replaced… and I don’t know that anyone would ever claim to (well, there IS that John Byrne fella… 🙂
   .
   Or to make it simple… Meet the new King… same as the old King!
   .
   I remain,
   Sincerely,
   Eric L. Sofer
   x<]:o){
   The Bad Clown…

2. Another complaint about African American I’ve heard is that it tends to pìšš øff folks from Trinnidad and Jamaica who get thrown into the same category.

   However, I’ve always wanted to meet a white African ex-pat who refers to themselves as African American.

   I like the Mystery Sandman Theater 3000 idea – sonds like a good weekend with photoshop project.

   1. The best bit was some American reporter interviewing a black man in France (a French citizen) and asking him “How does it feel to be an African-American living in France.” You could almost see in his eyes the fact that he knew what he was saying was stupid but better that than say “Black” and offend somebody (though who exactly are these people offended by “black”?)

3. While i, OTOH, have always been ticked off by the term “Native American”.
   .
   The American Indian is no more (but no less) a “native” American than you or i. Humanity did not evolve here – every huan in the Americas came from Somewhere Else.
   .
   Yes, the American Indian’s ancestors arrived a few millennia before mine, and, yes, they waked while mine came by boat… But that doesn’t make them “native Americans” and me not an American.
   .
   Interesting point – in the Author’s Notes on her book Godmother’s Web, Elizabeth Ann Scarborough mentions that she spent quite a bit of time on the Rez, talking to Hopi and Navajo, from people herding sheep in the back country to Tribal Council members – and not one of them referred to themselves or their people as “Native American” – they all said “Indian”.
   .
   Generally, i’ve noticed, when i hear someone talking about “Native Americans” in the media, it’s either a newsreader who is (or whose bosses are) scared stiff of offending anyone … or it’s one of the particularly annoying “Native American” “activists” (two sets of scare quotes intentional) who are on about something like baseball team names or mascots.
   .
   I recall, thirty or so years ago, one of that type on an Atlanta radio station, complaining about how degrading the name Atlanta “Braves” was, and how offensive the team’s logo mascot showing a war-painted whooping redskin with a single feather in his hair was, and how demeaning the live stadium mascot, Chief Nockahoma and his teepee and the war dance he did when the Braves homered … and the station guy said
   .
   “Ummm, you know that {wossname}, the guy who portrays Nockahoma, is a full-blooded Indian, right?”

   And, without missing a beat, the noble Native American activist, who was in town to promote the dignity of the Red Man and to protest demeaning stereotypes, said

   “Yes – but {his tribe} were nothing but a bunch of Uncle Tomahawks who just hung around the trading posts…”

   1. “Native” is a tricky term, yeah. When referring to people, it often just means “born here,” hence the nativists in “Gangs of New York” being white people. “Autochthonic” means “evolved here” though, and is a more specific term. It’s especially useful in science fiction, where you might have natives of a colony world competing for resources with the autochthons of that world (after all, they’re not “aliens” since it’s their planet).

      1. I once heard “aboriginal American” for Indian/Native American. I remember thinking “Oh, boy. Technically accurate and precise, but there’s no way in hëll that will fly.”
         .
         J.

      2. I like the Canadian “First Tribes” or “First Nations”.

   2. strange how some propnents of being PC don’t allow for people to choose wether or not they are offended by the “non-pc” language aimed at them.

      1. Of course not. The poor (fill-in-appropriate-oppressed-minority-here) people have been ground down by the (fill-in-appropriate-oppressor-group-here) that they just don’t know any better!
         .
         Educating them so that they can recognise their downtrodden status and rise to throw off the shackles of oppression begins with teaching them that the don’t have to accept the (appropriate-oppressor-group)’s degrading terms for them!
         .
         All it will take is inspirational leadership from (appropriate-political-dilettante-and/or-demagogue) to inspire them to arise in their might and take what is rightfully theirs!
         .
         (Cf. Symbionese Liberation Army, Yippies, Weather Underground {a PC name itself, since the original name was “Weathermen} and any number of other would-be “liberators”.)

   3. “A buncha Uncle Tomahawks.” Aw, Mike, I’m glad I don’t have a time machine handy. I’d go looking for that áššhølë. Like most Americans, I’ve got a bit of Red blood in me; Cherokee, mixed with Irish, Scots and Anglo-French, which makes me yer average Murrican. Big hairy deal, everybody on this planet bleeds the same thing, unless there’s a few Arcturans running around that I haven’t seen yet. Even at 25% Cherokee, I consider myself Scots and am dámņ proud of it. To muddy the water even further, in the late Nineties I was adopted into the Tsitsistas Cheyenne tribe by Lou White Eagle, and have borne the name White Shield proudly, even when some moron in the Memphis Intertribal Association pitched a fit about it. Racism seems to refuse to die; every Indian I’ve met so far, with the exception of Lou, seems to have a superior attitude concerning other tribes. The guy who got snippy over my name? Chiracahua Apache. A girl I knew in Millington who loved music discovered her Choctaw roots and turned up her nose at bands she’d loved before because they were white. I directed her to Link Wray, and she had no interest… until she found out Link was Shawnee. Then she was interested. As always, preaching to the choir here, but dammit, the racist attitudes have gotta go. I don’t care where you came from, we’re all stuck here until we rediscover transluminal drives and get off this mudball. Here endeth the rant.

4. I recently purchased one of those cheap dvd compilations of old Grouch Marx “You Bet your Life” shows and was surprised to hear a contestant refer to herself as an “Italian-American”. We often hear that such terms are much more recent creations, but this show was recorded in the 50s (and early 50s at that, I think) and I didn’t think such terms were common at the time. Someone I know suggested that maybe the hyphenated more common among actual immigrants, but the woman on the show didn’t have an Italian accent at all and I don’t know where she was born.

   1. I wonder if it was because, at the time,
      Italian” might have been a less popular term than now. We’d just fought a war against them and a good number of people of the time would probably have made the calculation that Italian=mafia. I wonder if there were many who called themselves German-American or Japanese-American around that time as well.

5. I remember about 3 years ago watching the first season of the Doctor Who reboot on DVD with my ex-girlfriend and her son, and I once referred to Mickey as ‘the black guy’ because I was having a brain fart and just couldn’t come up with his name. The kid immediately jumped on me for saying black, because he was taught in school that you HAVE to say African-American or it’s as bad as swearing. To which I asked him “How can he be African-American if he’s not from America? He’s British.” He’s still trying to figure that one out.

6. It is a bit strange that people born in this country will self-identify as being from somewhere else even if they’ve never even been to those countries. At the assisted living home I work at, people will refer to themselves as being “Italian” or “Irish” even though they’ll freely admit to living their entire lives in the U.S. of A.

   1. Yeah, and yet, no one would ever say they’re “English” unless they’re actually from there.

      1. Yeah, and then there are us “mutts”. I was born in the US, but my ancestors came from England, Ireland, France, Germany, Portugal and probably more countries that I just can’t confirm at the moment.

         I suppose I should just say I’m “European” and leave it at that. :p

      2. Yeah, and then there are us “mutts”.
         .
         When asked specifically in the past about my ancestry (which was before I caught the genealogy ‘bug’ earlier this year), I would say I’m “Euro-57”, borrowing from the Heinz slogan.
         .
         I knew I had a ‘little bit of everything’ from Europe: German, Polish, English, supposedly Irish.
         .
         But now, having done quite a bit of the research, I’ve found that I’m not so ‘mutt’ after all. My recent ancestry is in fact dominated by the German, far more than I ever suspected.

      3. Myself, it’s 50/50 Anglo-Scottish (my mother’s father’s name was “William Wallace Godard”) and Bohemian (one of my Dad’s grandfathers was a draft-dodger from the army of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.)
         .
         A lot simpler than for some.
         .
         (Kate’s ancestry is Anglo/Scottish and Cherogoyan in some proportion. I’ve seen photos of my mother-in-law when she was younger and she looked exactly like the inspiration for the phrase “Pray they ONLY kill you and don’t give you to the women of the tribe!”)

   2. “It is a bit strange that people born in this country will self-identify as being from somewhere else even if they’ve never even been to those countries. At the assisted living home I work at, people will refer to themselves as being “Italian” or “Irish” even though they’ll freely admit to living their entire lives in the U.S. of A.”
      .
      Identity, to a large extent, is shaped by environment and history. If you are a minority of some sort — race, religion, immigrant, it’s equally possible that you’ll seek to emphasize your distinct subcultural identity or that you will make every effort to hide it. And it’s equally possible that the majority around you will focus on your distinct identity or that they will seek to minimize it.
      .
      If the majority of Americans were Indians, it is possible that you’d see American identify themselves as European-Americans.
      .
      The ugly aspect of this is that white supremacy groups who see themselves as an embattled minority self-identify as White.
      .
      And what about he term WASP?

   3. The branch of the family we’ve been able to trace back farthest started as part of the Scotia, a tribe of Irish pirates who allied with the Picts to oppose Roman invaders, in exchange for a piece of land. The Scotia proceeded to take over, and rename the whole place “Scotland” (see “MacAlpin’s Treachery”).
      .
      Fast-forward several centuries, and some of my ancestors were moved by King James I/VI (depending which throne you meant) from Scotland (back) to Ireland, to try to help keep those Irish Papists under control. A couple hundred years later, they got in sufficient trouble with the Crown that it seemed like a really good idea to emigrate to the New World (there are some hints that it wasn’t entirely voluntary); less than a century in the Colonies, and some of my more illustrious ancestors took leading roles in a successful rebellion against the British Empire.
      .
      A proud tradition of rogues, brigands, and rebels, if I do say so myself. Taking the other family branches into account, though, on those occasions when I’m asked where “my people” come from, I generally just answer, “Northern Europe.” (Interestingly, my wife, who is black, is also related to me – we both have ancestors, only a few generations back, who come from the Davis clan of Wales.)

7. In South America they complain about people from the USA refering to themselves as americans because technically they (people from South America) are americans too. They are americans and more specifically southamericans. Mexicans and canadians are northamericans just like the people from the USA. But the way I see it, it is similar to saying xerox for a photocopy. It is being use for so long that it sticks. I accept it as the name of the citizenship and it does not bother me if it is not specific enough to be an accurate technical term. Also, unitedstateofamerican is too long a word:).

   1. I disagree with those people. Not often, because I don’t talk to them often, but when I do, I point out that we don’t call ourselves “Americans” after the continent. We call ourselves that after our country.
      .
      Just as they call themselves Mexicans, Canadians, Chilians, Brazilians, etc.
      .
      Theno

      1. But our country isn’t “America”. It is the United States. The “of America” paret just distinguishes it for any other “United States”.
         .
         In online discussions, i usually use “USAian”.

8. I may have told this story once already. If so, I apologize.
   .
   I write and edit for a role playing game set in 1905-1914. So, we get to dance around the line of what was socially acceptable then versus what is socially acceptable now.
   .
   I introduced a character who the local townfolk called, “Indian With Coyote,” because he was a Native American who had a pet coyote. I thought it was appropriate for the time and location (untamed area in the American west.)
   .
   We have a number of customers who buy our events and then modify them for use in their home play. Same as many people used to (and probably still ) do with D&D events.
   .
   So, one of our players wrote in to complain on behalf of Native Americans. She said that the term “Indian” was offensive and shouldn’t be printed. She also said that no mother would name her child, “Indian With Coyote,” something I agreed with her on and wrote back to her about.
   .
   End result, our marketing guy has since gone through our events before release to check for potentially offensive terms. Fortunately, he’s a guy who came with a built in frustration of Political Correctness in general, borne from years of government work. So, he doesn’t object often. But, the discussions with the player (who had only participated in the event and hadn’t read it for herself) and the other partners did kill my enthusaism for that particular story arc.
   .
   Fortunately, what with the other stories going on, no one has noticed the ones (like this one) that have been quietly dropped.
   .
   Theno

9. Isn’t the same thing going on right now regarding the term Hispanic vs Latino?
   .
   I have no problem with people identifying with their heritage, such as Italian and what not. But then, I’ve gotten the genealogy ‘bug’ this year, so I really enjoy the subject and the discovery of finding out where one’s ancestors were from.
   .
   That said, I don’t think you’ll find too many people identifying themselves as (European country)-American, even if they themselves immigrated from said country, rather than their ancestors.
   .
   Warning: un-PC comment ahead: In the end, it’s non-Europeans who use this kind of identification. Asian-American, African-American, Hispanic or Latino, etc. Obama is more African-American than most, seeing as one of his parents was actually born in African, yet I recall people saying during the election that he has no claim to the term.

   1. I believe Hispanic refers only to people with a heritage from a Spanish speaking country in the while Latino is for people from countries in the Americas with a language derived from latin (also know as romance languages because Latin was the language of Rome) which includes Spanish. So, Hispanic is a subdivision of Latinos. A person from Brazil is Latino but it is not Hispanic because the language in Brazil is Portuguese. With the exeption of the US and Canada (and some other exceptions) the rest of america is know and Latin America and I think that is were the term Latino came from. That is why people from Spain are not usually refer to as Latinos even though they speak Spanish. Italian is also derived from Latin but Italians are not Latinos either.

      1. I am replying to myself to edit the post.

         I believe Hispanic refers only to people with a heritage from a Spanish speaking country while Latino is for people from countries in the Americas with a language derived from Latin (also know as romance languages because Latin was the language of Rome) which includes Spanish. So, Hispanic is a subdivision of Latinos. A person from Brazil is Latino but it is not Hispanic because the language in Brazil is Portuguese. With the exeption of the US and Canada (and some other exceptions) the rest of America is known as Latin America and I think that is were the term Latino came from. That is why people from Spain are not usually refer to as Latinos even though they speak Spanish. Italian is also derived from Latin but Italians are not Latinos either.

      2. We have a local high school going through a minor PC crisis. The school is named “East High School” and the sports team are/were called the “Orientals.” (Bear in mind the school is largely caucasian). The team has since been renamed the Dragons

10. Or, if you wanted to be really random, you could do Mystery Sandman Theater 3000 with Morpheus, Wesley Dodds, Sandy Hawkins, and Flint Marko.
    .
    Another thing that bugs me about “African-American”: how do you complete the sentence “The Black Panther was the first ______ superhero?” It’s impossible without using the word “black,” because he’s NOT African-American, and simply using “African” is too limiting and misses the point.
    .
    Really, the term makes no sense unless we start calling white people “European-Americans,” and I don’t see that happening. But we can’t just call everyone “Americans,” because that only denotes nationality, not race or ethnicity (of course, so does “Mexican,” but that doesn’t stop people from using it to describe ethnicity).

    1. as a semi-related note, I’ve always thought that white friends should be able to use the term “My Cracker” when greeting one another.

       You know, take the word back.

       1. And now all I can think of is the immortal Richard Pryor/Chevy Chase SNL “word association” sketch.
          .
          Phenomenal sketch, and one that could never, ever, ever be made today.

11. I remember my dad being horribly offended that Magneto was shown to be a Holocaust survivor and realizing that it’s okay to be offended. You can’t please everyone.

    I can understand that showing Indians as fantasy characters can be offensive, but changing the play isn’t the answer. What about trimming some of the more offensive lyrics?

    “and I will come and save the brave noble red skin”
    to
    “and I will come and save the brave noble warriors”

    and ugh a wug to tra-la-la.

12. The capital of the Chickasaw nation is where I reside; I’ve worked with/for many Chickasaws, and count several as close friends. None of the regular (I use this term not to raise up or demean) people have any problem with the term Indian, in fact they embrace the term. Now the Governor or anyone high up on the ladder, is usually a different matter, but even that was not always the case. Back in the 80’s I played in a poker game with the sitting governor and he always referred to himself as an Indian.

    We used to run an NFL themed bowling league, and guess which team insisted on being the Redskins?

    I think what happens is people in positions of supposed leadership want to make names for themselves and cause controversy where there really isn’t any.

    You are correct, Peter we should embrace the fact that we are lucky to just live in the United States, but as long as no amount of time and change can erase past transgressions, I believe that won’t be case the case for many.

    1. So how was George at Poker? I kid… he and my dad have been, well, friends for awhile ever since dad was one of the few publishers who actually endorsed him when he ran, back in 79.
       We still call them Indian Casinos down here… but, well, PC is not necessarily even noticed either…
       Of course, I live in the city, which is fairly removed from the nations in general.

       TAC

       1. Never mind… you were talking about the Governor of the Chickasaw Nation… I read too much into things… ugh. Not enough coffee.

13. An ex-girlfriend of mine was a Wiccan, and while she didn’t mind THE WIZARD OF OZ, she hated that in the roleplaying game VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE the group called the Sabbat were a bunch of near-feral, barbarian vampires — because the Sabbat is a holy day/celebration for Wiccans. That I can understand.

    (Sadly, we broke up and lost communication before I could find out what she thought of THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT…)

14. Peter David: Should we change the terms to “Brownish” and “Pinkish?”
    Luigi Novi: Maybe “Brownish” and “Peach-ish”, since Caucasian skin tone isn’t exactly “pink”.
    .
    Then again, browns and Caucasians aren’t the only ethnicities or hues there are….

15. “Something really neat has happened that’s comics convention related. But I promised I wouldn’t tell. So I’m not… which is frustrating me. You’ll find out eventually… so just remember, when you do find out, you didn’t read it here first, sort of.”

    So, what was it, if you don’t mind me asking?

    1. I second the question. Or is there still a concern that I will have read about it here first?

       –Ed

16. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013460397_braveworld18m.html
    .
    Seattle School Board postpones decision on pulling ‘Brave New World
    .
    A Native American mother of a Seattle Public Schools student appealed to the Seattle School Board Wednesday to remove the novel “Brave New World” from the district’s list of approved books for language-arts classes.
    .
    “We are assembled here today to take a stand against institutional racism,” Sarah Sense-Wilson told board members at a special session before their regular meeting Wednesday evening.
    .
    When I mentioned in an earlier thread about how sometimes the left can be worse than the right in matter of free speech, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. The fact that they are even thinking about this shows how effective yelling racism can be. I’m sure there are conservatives who want to ban that book as well–it’s always been a big target–but would the Seattle School board care?

    1. I wonder if this crazy woman even read the book? Granted, it’s been years since I’ve read it and I may be remembering wrong, but the Savage is supposed to be one of the noblest, most sympathetic characters in the novel, right?
       .
       Left-wing censors always appear ridiculously nitpicky to me. Not that I have any sympathy for right-wing ones either, but at least the Right usually is correct in the accusation that most writers disagree with its values.

    2. I seem to recall that the Greater London Council (a fairly bolshie bunch – consider that one of their most prominent members was known far and wide as “Red Ken“) once voted to remove all books older than ten (i think) years old from school libraries because anything that old was irrelevant.

17. Here in Oklahoma, pretty much all Indians prefer to be called ‘Indian’. (Or, in many cases, they prefer to indentify themselves by tribe, although this could get complicated as so many have ancestry from more than one tribe.) I’ve been told that it’s primarily Northwesterners that insist on ‘Native American’, although I can’t say for sure if that’s the case.
    .
    You asked if Africans with American ancestry ever call themselves ‘American-Africans’. I’ve seen the term ‘Americo-Liberian’ used a lot to refer to the descendants of the American settlers in Liberia. I guess that’s close enough. I don’t know if that’s the standard term used in Liberia, or if it’s only in American books. The Americo-Liberians are the wealthiest and most politically powerful ethnic group in the country, and I’m told they do keep themselves pretty distinct from other Liberians, so they must have some term for themselves.
    .
    The new King of Comics is Peter David.

    1. I’ve been told that it’s primarily Northwesterners that insist on ‘Native American’, although I can’t say for sure if that’s the case.

       Northwestern where? In the Pacific Northwest, nobody balks at the Indian casinos, Indian smoke shops, or, on the east side of the mountains, fruit stands “on the Rez” (to which many of us west-siders make annual pilgrimages, because the only way to get the fruit any fresher would be to go out and pick it ourselves…). As for appellations for the people, the Puyallups like to be called Puyallups, the Snoqualmie like to be called “the tribe with the really nice resort/casino”, and the Duwamish just think it would be great if the feds acknowledged that they still exist as a people. More generally, I haven’t met one yet who’d take offense to being called “Indian”.

       1. I don’t remember where I heard that Northwesterners preferred ‘Native American’, but I’m not surprised it isn’t true.

18. Given your numerous denunciations of political correctness, I’m interested in your view on hate crimes.

19. “The reason for this unwieldy hyphenating is obvious, of course: The desire, the need, to be proud of one’s heritage. That’s perfectly nice. But wouldn’t it be just as nice if one could be proud of being, simply, American?”

    Are the two mutually exclusive?

    “My mother is from Israel. If I called myself an Israeli-American, people would think I’m nuts.”

    Because there are quite a few Israelis who emigrate to the US, they have created a somewhat distinct cultural subgroup among American Jews and Americans in general. So the term is applicable, at least for the first generation. Whether the term gains traction depends mostly on fashion.

    Since the cultural/emotional motivation and the reference of the term African-American are both clear, I don’t see what’s the problem? Are blacks using the term rejecting their American identity? I suspect those blacks who use the term African-American do so because they wish to be identified by a cultural heritage rather than by the color of their skin. That’s how I would feel if I were in their place, although I could be wrong of course.

    1. And now with dots included:
       .
       “The reason for this unwieldy hyphenating is obvious, of course: The desire, the need, to be proud of one’s heritage. That’s perfectly nice. But wouldn’t it be just as nice if one could be proud of being, simply, American?”
       .
       Are the two mutually exclusive?
       .
       .
       “My mother is from Israel. If I called myself an Israeli-American, people would think I’m nuts.”
       .
       Because there are quite a few Israelis who emigrated to the US, they have created a somewhat distinct cultural subgroup among American Jews and Americans in general. So the term is applicable, at least for the first generation. Whether the term gains traction depends mostly on fashion.
       .
       .
       Since the cultural/emotional motivation and the reference of the term African-American are both clear, I don’t see what’s the problem?
       .
       Are blacks using the term rejecting their American identity?
       .
       .
       ““Black” seems a perfectly respectable term to me.”
       .
       I suspect those blacks who use the term African-American do so because they wish to be identified by a cultural heritage rather than by the color of their skin. That’s how I would feel if I were in their place, although I could be wrong of course since I’m not in their place.

20. I know this probably isn’t the appropriate thread for this comment, but at least it falls under the heading of “other topics”…
    .
    I just saw the 6-minute trailer for the Young Justice animated series over at superherohype.com, and it looks phenomenal! It’s been the better part of a year since you posted anything on this, Peter–have you seen the trailer yet, and if so, what’s your impression?

    1. I hadn’t seen it, but you know the show is going to be debuting next week. I’ll likely start a thread for commentary, but I’m going to be relatively mum myself since I’m hardly in a position to be unbiased.
       .
       PAD

       1. I don’t recall offhand what your level of involvement with the show is. Are you writing, consulting, involved in production in some way, or is your involvement just that for a time you wrote the book on which it is based? Either way I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

          .
          You’d be biased? So? Still interesting to hear what someone with a distinct perspective has to say.

       2. I’ve written two episodes of the series.
          .
          PAD

21. PAD,
    “I saw a number of tributes to Jack Kirby end with the line, “The King is dead. Long live the King!” A traditional line since it mourns the passing of one monarch, and the advent of a new one.
    .
    May I ask, just out of a morbid sense of curiosity, who the new king of comics is supposed to be? It’s certainly not immediately evident to me.”
    .
    Although I can’t read the minds of everyone who used the line at the end of a Kirby tribute, I would interpret it to mean that even in death, his work will live on and that he will forever retain the crown. No one else is names as a successor because he is considered the one and only King.
    .
    I saw the same kind of sentiments expressed about Elvis. that’s just my interpretation, but I feel it’s the best explanation.

22. We’re all pinkish-brown to some degree. I am a coloured person. That colour happens to be off-white.

    1. And if you look at the terminology from a scientific point of view, it makes even less sense.
       .
       Think back to fifth grade science class. In the visible spectrum, what is the result of the combination of all colors? White.
       .
       What is the term for the complete absence of color? Black.
       .
       Yet the current preferred term for people who were once called Black is now “Person of Color.”
       .
       Then again, to expand on what I said in the column, since Israel is on the continent of Asia, technically I’m an Asian-American.
       .
       Politically correct terms are so entertaining.
       .
       PAD

23. I figure I’ll start using Native-, African-, and Asian-American when I start being referred to as Irish-American, English-American, Scottish-American, French-American, European-American, or even Mutt-American.
    .
    Way I see it, I was born here, my parents were born here, my grandparents were born here, and 5 of my great-grandparents were born here… and at least one in every previous generation going back to the 1600s. I’m pretty sure that makes me a native of this land…
    .
    I always liked the term “Amerind,” myself, though I’ve never asked anybody to whom that might be applicable how they feel about it so I don’t actually use it much. I just think it’s a cool word *shrug*. If “Indian” is good enough for their casinos, it’s good enough for me! I’m willing to add “American” in front of “Indian” simply to distinguish ’em from those other Indians, but that’s about as far as I’ll go.

    1. I always liked the term “Amerind,” myself…
       .
       That sounds like a brand of orange to me.
       .
       PAD

    2. “Red Indian” – and i’d bet that that was the term Barry used in the original “Peter Pan”.

24. I’m a get along kind of guy, if someone really wants to be called *whatever* I’ll try to make the effort to refer to them as that, should it come up. Should I forget and they get all huffy about it or insist that everyone else in their particular demographic use their entirely arbitrary appellation it makes the job even easier, as they fall into the category of “douchebag-American”. A sizable voting block, sad to say.

    1. Let’s don’t bring Aston Kutcher into this.

    2. I’m a get along kind of guy, if someone really wants to be called *whatever* I’ll try to make the effort to refer to them as that, should it come up. Should I forget and they get all huffy about it or insist that everyone else in their particular demographic use their entirely arbitrary appellation…
       .
       There really does seem to be a certain arbitrariness to it. I’ve been around long enough to witness a curious progression. When I was a kid, the term was “colored people,” as per the NAACP. Then this became considered old fashioned and even insulting to some, and the preferred term became Negro. Then it was Black. Then it was African-American. And now it’s People of Color, which is not REMOTELY similar to the once-insulting “colored people.”
       .
       And it all makes very little sense to me because I just tend to call people by, y’know, their names. I can’t even really parse the concept of varied races because as far as I’m concerned, we’re the human race, period. But that’s probably just me being naive.
       .
       PAD

       1. And when and why did “Oriental” become offensive? That’s what Southeast Asians were always called, and then one day I woke up and suddenly it was offensive, and they wanted to be called Asian. So of course I had to train myself to say “Asian,” and now it seems weird to say “Oriental,” but… why? Because they don’t want to be compared to a rug? “Oriental” comes from Latin, “Asian” comes from Greek. What is the difference?! Are Middle Eastern people going to want to start being called “Asian,” and won’t that get confusing and pointless?
          .
          Ironically, I recently overhead an Asian man talking to someone in a restaurant, and he referred to an “Oriental” person.

       2. PAD: “And it all makes very little sense to me because I just tend to call people by, y’know, their names. I can’t even really parse the concept of varied races because as far as I’m concerned, we’re the human race, period. But that’s probably just me being naive.”
          .
          My position exactly, except that I believe that it’s naive to spend ones time and energy constantly seeking out the perfect way to describe someone without the slightest potential for insult. However I suspect you were being ironic.
          .
          Another version of this PCBS (Politically Correct Bûllšhìŧ) is the Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays flap. Having thought it through for a while, approximately 2 minutes and 17 seconds, and after remembering that neither applies to me, I have decided to screw with everyone by saying Happy Christmas. I decided against Merry Holidays because it didn’t seem to properly jab both ways. I invite everyone to join me.

       3. PAD: When I was a kid, the term was “colored people,” as per the NAACP. Then this became considered old fashioned and even insulting to some, and the preferred term became Negro. Then it was Black. Then it was African-American. And now it’s People of Color,…
          .
          I recall an episode of The Jeffersons (for the benefit of the youngsters: TV sitcom about a well off black family) where the 20-something activist son was offended that an older family friend hadn’t used the term “black”. His somewhat angered response, given his having been involved in civil rights, was “Son, I’ve gone from being called ņìggër to colored to Negro. You’ll have to forgive me if it takes em a few more minutes to get to ‘black’!”
          .
          Actually kinda nicely put Lionel in his place, with his being more concerned with word choice than the actual causes he claimed to support.

       4. “And when and why did “Oriental” become offensive?”
          .
          It’s probably because the term is associated with a certain attitude toward the east which — some people believe — was prevalent in the past and which today seems condescending and racist, similarly to the terms negro and colored.
          .
          I should think the best thing to do is to refer to people by their country, region or tribe of origin — if that’s what they want. Or simply as American if that’s what they prefer. It’s a personal choice.

       5. I have decided to screw with everyone by saying Happy Christmas.

          People will probably just think you’re trying to sound British.

       6. Our use of race is so unscientific and based on, when you look at it, so much utter nonsense that it should make us hide our many-colored faces in embarrassment for promulgating it.
          .
          I may have mentioned this before but do people know where the term “Caucasian” even comes from? heres the late (and missed) Steven Jay Gould:
          .
          Blumenbach’s story is really interesting. He published his main work in 1776, which is symbolic to Americans for other reasons. Here’s a man who, in the late 18th century, was a genuine egalitarian, as close as you can come at an age when almost everybody thought that there were inherent differences, with whites on top and Africans at the bottom. Here’s a man who amassed a library of writings by black scholars and poets. He was the most egalitarian minded of late 18th century scientists. And yet you can never escape your time.
          .
          When he makes his racial classification, oh yes, he doesn’t do it in terms of differential intelligence or moral worth or any of the conventional racists criteria. But he can’t totally escape his context. So he bases it on beauty.
          .
          I think it’s not widely understood why we have this odd term, Caucasian, as the sort of semi-official term for the white folks of Europe and the Near East. It’s Blumenbach’s name. He found the skulls of people who lived around the Caucasus Mountains to be the most beautiful of skulls. He says the Caucasian people are the most beautiful. How do we know that? Just look at the skull, it’s obvious, he says. So he names the race for what he took to be the highest manifestation thereof in terms of beauty. And he called it Caucasian and that name stuck.
          .
          And then he has two lines going away from it in two directions, one leading to African blacks and the other leading to Asian peoples. It’s really quite remarkable. He’s so insistent that this has no meaning in terms of innate worth or intelligence or moral rectitude, and yet he makes a classification based on his perception of beauty and thinks it’s objective. It’s remarkable.

       7. Here’s the whole article–it’s great: http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/003318.html

25. “There really does seem to be a certain arbitrariness to it. I’ve been around long enough to witness a curious progression. When I was a kid, the term was “colored people,” as per the NAACP. Then this became considered old fashioned and even insulting to some, and the preferred term became Negro. Then it was Black. Then it was African-American. And now it’s People of Color, which is not REMOTELY similar to the once-insulting “colored people.””
    .
    It reminds me of the “incident” a few years back where a Yankees official (name and title escape me at the moment, though I’m pretty sure this happened in the 1990s) was villified for being a racist because he called black children negro and colored. Bill White – who to add irony to the story was black – said that he knew the guy wasn’t a racist and that blacks had been called so many “appropriate” terms over the years – colored, Negro, black, African-American -“it seems nobody knows what they’re supposed to call us”.

26. I always thought hyphenation made more sense to describe someone from an immigrant family that has kept direct ties to another country, usually because they still have relatives there.
    .
    I am the third generation born here in Brazil from an Italian family, and I don’t consider myself Italo-Brazilian, since culturally I’m not one iota different from any other Brazilian, an Italian great-grandfather is too removed.
    .
    African-American would only make sense for someone like the Obama family (Kenyan American, to be more precise).

    1. “African-American would only make sense for someone like the Obama family (Kenyan American, to be more precise).”
       .
       Whether the term is good or bad, the term actually refers to a group with a distinct sub-culture and history, namely the decedents of African slaves brought to the United States.
       .
       In a way, the reason the term African is appropriate is because their countries of origin and their cultures are lost. Obama can call himself a Kenyan-American (or refer to the specific tribe he belongs too), but blacks who are descendants of slaves only have a vague idea of where they came from and almost no cultural connection.
       .
       “I don’t consider myself Italo-Brazilian, since culturally I’m not one iota different from any other Brazilian, an Italian great-grandfather is too removed.”
       .
       If you choose not to view yourself as connected to Italian culture in any way, and you are not making any effort to maintain any connection, then you are right. This is your personal choice. Others seem to take make different choices. I guess it all has to do with people searching for distinct identities in one way or another.

       1. Yes, but the thing is, Black sub-culture in he US obviously has African roots, but it has evolved over centuries in American soil. Jazz is of American origin, just as samba is of Brazilian origin, not African.
          .
          But yeah, people have a right to call themselves whatever they want. But I think the PC Brazilian term, though ugly, makes more sense: Afro-descendent, instead of Afro-Brazilian.

       2. “es, but the thing is, Black sub-culture in he US obviously has African roots, but it has evolved over centuries in American soil. Jazz is of American origin, just as samba is of Brazilian origin, not African.”
          .
          Yes, Jazz and Samba and Blues and Gospel were created as a result of the interaction between European and West-African cultures combined with the historical experience of being black in the US or Brazil.
          .
          So it is reasonable to want to name that culture and history. What name you use is less important so long as it is not imposed and is well-intentioned. Because African-European culture that developed in the United States (or Brazil) is a mouthful.
          .
          “Afro-descendent, instead of Afro-Brazilian.”
          .
          They seem the same to me.

27. George Carlin had a rant about PC talk in his book “Brain Droppings” which covered a lot of this.
    My problem with ‘African American’ is that, despite what Sarah says, Africa is a CONTINENT! It has dozens of countries, many with large white populations. As Mr. Carlin pointed out: What if a racist white South African came to live the U.S.? He could legitimately call himself an African-American. As could an Egyptian who moved here.

    1. “Africa is a CONTINENT!”

       So is America.

       1. No, America is not a continent. North America is a continent. So is South America. When anyone says “America,” they are clearly talking about the United States of America. I’ve never heard of an “African-American” in Canada or Cuba or Brazil or any other Western Hemisphere country because the term is specific to this country.

          I don’t always agree with Dennis Miller but I’m going to quote one of his rants that’s more or less (and more than less) with what I believe: “Now, personally, I am baffled by the concept of racial prejudice. Why hate someone based on the color of their skin when, if you take the time to get to know them as a human being, you can find so many other things to hate them for? I mean, come on. Jerks are everywhere, all colors, all races. All religions, too.” In other words, judge a person by who they are, not what they look like.

       2. “When anyone says “America,” they are clearly talking about the United States of America.”
          .
          And when anyone talks about African-Americans they are clearly talking about the black community of the United States. So this semantic argument in general and specifically the argument that Africa is a CONTINENT is completely pointless.

       3. “Now, personally, I am baffled by the concept of racial prejudice. Why hate someone based on the color of their skin when, if you take the time to get to know them as a human being, you can find so many other things to hate them for? I mean, come on. Jerks are everywhere, all colors, all races. All religions, too.” IIn other words, judge a person by who they are, not what they look like.
          .
          Yeah, except if you dislike someone of a different hue based upon the fact that they’re a jerk, and you say, “You’re a jerk,” the inevitable response will be, “How dare you say that; obviously you must be a racist!” And that’s where it goes right off the rails.
          .
          PAD

28. We have ‘African-Americans’ and ‘Asian-Americans’, so how come we don’t have any ‘European-Americans’?

    Whenever I run into someone who identify themselves as ‘French-Canadian’ or the like I always ask “Oh, what part of [insert country name] are you from?” The sad part being how many people just give me a confused look, utterly unable to grasp what I’m driving at. |Occasionally some have the presence of mind to go on with “well I speak French”. At which point I educate them on the difference between being French and being francophone.

    1. At which point I educate them on the difference between being French and being francophone.
       .
       And then adding to the confusion is Franco-American, which makes Italian stuff like SpaghettiOs and RavioliOs. What’s up with THAT?
       .
       PAD

       1. I have to wonder if the naming on the company was to thumbs noses at french cuisine.

          Try offering a can of that stuff to a french chef, see if you make it out without bruises.

       2. Well, Wikipedia is your friend:

          The original Franco-American Food Company was founded by Alphonse Biardot, who immigrated to the United States from France in 1880. In 1886, he and his two sons opened a commercial kitchen in Jersey City, New Jersey, featuring the foods of his native country. The company proved a success, particularly with its line of canned soup and pasta, and it was acquired by Campbell’s in 1915.

          (According to Wikipedia, by 2008 the line had been almost entirely phased out.)

       3. I knew all that, Mike. The disconnect for me comes from the idea that the guy came here from France and started a company called “Franco-American” and they’re known for making foods associated with Italy.
          .
          PAD

       4. Try offering a can of that stuff to a french chef, see if you make it out without bruises.
          .
          Well, if he makes a move on you, you can always bounce the can off his skull.
          .
          PAD

29. Doug Atkinson: “People will probably just think you’re trying to sound British.”
    .
    Actually I have factored that in to my plan. You see, I live in an area where the locals seem to be perversely proud of their ignorance.
    .
    I fully expect that a few will catch the British thing, but the majority will just stare for a second and move on without realizing they’re being screwed with.
    .
    What I’m looking for are the people who will, for a split second, want to argue that the “correct” phrase is either Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. If they indeed argue I will reply with, “Very well. May your annual semi-spiritual winter activities be enjoyable and free of incident.” I can’t help it. It’s the smart-ášš in me.
    .
    Both the Christmas greeting thing and the Hyphenated-American thing basically come from the same source: A bunch of self-important áššhølëš who believe it’s their place to tell us what we can and cannot say. I refuse to let that pass. I admit that my chosen method is unorthodox but I guarantee I won’t be the one to spew hate over it.
    .
    I’ll also admit that I seem to have jumped into defense mode a bit, and I don’t know why. Please don’t take that personally as it was not my intention when I started typing. Still isn’t.

    Cheers!