There’s absolutely no advantageous situation handed them that they can’t screw up.
Wilson made an idiot of himself. Even hardcore GOP reps shied away from his actions. He apologized to Obama. Obama seemed to be cool with it. That should be that.
Now the Democrats are insisting he apologize from the House floor. Wilson’s refusing to do so because–I dunno. Because perhaps he sees it as an enforced exercise in humiliation and groveling. Which it is. So now they’re talking about rebuking him.
To what end? So that he can be transformed from a loudmouth into a man of principle? So that the GOP can rally behind him? So that the public can hear “You lie!” over and over and over again and, as a result, remember only the accusation, which is what typically happens in these circumstances. That’s why, in a debate situation, you always reframe an accuser’s statement rather than repeat it, because viewers just remember the accusation.
He heckled the President. He apologized. The President seems ready to move on. Move along with him before Wilson is turned into a martyr or even a hero. They’re supposed to be serving the public, and the public will be better served focusing on getting health care done rather than obsessing about a footnote in the debate.
PAD
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There’s a reason that Obama is so much more popular than his fellow Democrats in congress. This is a perfect illustration of that reason. They just aren’t very smart.
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And you raise an excellent point that seems to elude many of our leaders; we are living in a world where, if you aren’t careful, small issues can become big ones. Big enough that they can drown out the points you are trying to make. We see this again and again. Ignoring stories won’t make them go away. Trying to spin a story is likely to blow up in one’s face and result in the spin becoming the story. In a world where the major newspapers can pretend that nothing is happening and a few bloggers can make sure that the story gets out anyway it’s gotten tougher for politicians to know how fast and how far to push an issue. But this is a no-brainer. The only folks who will be impressed if they censor Wilson will be those who are already solid in the democrat (or at least anti-republican) camp. It will invigorate the republican base, which is a negative for the democrats as the best situation for them is the one where that base is disgusted with their own party. Reminding them how much more they despise the opposition seems a poor plan indeed. And it will make the independents–the real prize in politics–roll their eyes at the shenanagins of our ruling class. Seems like a big price for no reward.
I’m not sure if a censure (which is what I assume you meant) is the same as a rebuke (which is what I’ve heard discussed). But yeah, you’re right. Obama is clearly light years ahead of Congress when it comes to smarts; it would be nice if they tried to follow his lead, what with him being, y’know, our elected leader.
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PAD
I was just having this same line of thought. We worked so hard to get four years of fresh ideas in the White House and the knuckleheads in Congress are going to mess that up for us.
Again, I point a finger at the dámņëd 24-hour news cycle which will keep dead stories alive and bring false stories to life.
Can’t we just lock them in their chambers with a stack of weapons until either everyone is dead or we have a health care bill?
Joe Wilson is already a wingnut hero for going on Fox News afterward and saying essentially, “Didn’t really mean it, and I’m not going to apologize to Congress for embarrassing them, either.” He was also at the Beck-a-thon rally in DC on Saturday.
However, Wilson DID intentionally break House rules of decorum, so he should be censured for it. Otherwise, Pelosi and the Democrats just look even more SPINELESS by giving a closet racist from South Carolina a free pass.
What makes you think he’s a closet racist?
Putting aside the closest racist thing (which I have no knowledge of and therefore can’t comment on) I totally see what you’re saying. And if Wilson had never apologized in any forum and remained belligerent, I’d 100% agree. But I think the context has to be considered. The whole point of Obama making the speech was to stop health care debates from becoming derailed; if Pelosi then allows it to get derailed with this stuff, she’s running against the wishes of not only the leader of her party but the leader of the nation.
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In other words, I think technically you’re right, but sometimes you need to pick your battles, and I don’t think this is one that should be fought. Not with people’s health care on the line.
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PAD
Sorry, but that’s essentially a ridiculously poor argument to believe that in government, only one battle can be waged successfully at a time. Obama himself isn’t merely just fighting for health care reform this week. Neither should Pelosi.
Besides, the REAL health care battle in Congress appears to be in the Senate, where Baucus and Co. are making great pains to declare the public option “dead”.
Sorry, but that’s essentially a ridiculously poor argument to believe that in government, only one battle can be waged successfully at a time.
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I didn’t say it should. I think an administration can easily fight battles on several fronts if need be, and if the battles are worth it. I just said you had to pick the battles that were important. Obsessing about Wilson is not only not important–he apologized, let’s move on–but it can have a negative impact on the fight that is, because it elevates Wilson with no real payoff for Obama.
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PAD
Why should Obama expect a “payoff” for this disciplinary action anyway? The ball has always been in Pelosi and the House Democrats’ court, and the incident happened on THEIR TURF. Obama was merely a visitor.
While the idea may not seem important a week afterward (especially since the news cycle has already moved on to Obama’s off-the-record remark on Kanye West), I wouldn’t say that the incident hasn’t already elevated Joe Wilson. In fact, even his wife Roxanne gets into the act in a new fund-raising ad:
“I said ‘Joe, who’s the nut who hollered out, “You lie”?’….I couldn’t believe Joe would say that.”
The guy’s already made seven figures in campaign contributions from that ‘non-elevation’.
Why should Obama expect a “payoff” for this disciplinary action anyway? The ball has always been in Pelosi and the House Democrats’ court, and the incident happened on THEIR TURF. Obama was merely a visitor.
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I didn’t say what Obama should be expecting. I said there wouldn’t be one for him. Sure, Pelosi has to maintain her own house, but she should also be considering how the actions she takes will impact on Obama, especially when they’re endeavoring to push through health care reform .
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Perhaps “payoff” was the wrong word, but I think if you’re going to get into an argument, it helps to consider the benefits versus the negatives of doing so. What’s the point of it? What are you trying to accomplish? Do you hope to change the mind of the person you’re arguing with? Do you figure he’s a lost cause, but figure that you might have some impact on people who are witnessing the encounter? Is there more to be gained or to be lost? Without taking that into consideration, you’re basically just playing out the Argument Clinic from “Monty Python.”
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(This is the part where someone says, “No, I’m not.”)
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PAD
(This is the part where someone says, “No, I’m not.”)
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I’m sorry, but I’m not allowed to argue unless you pay.
Oh, that was never an argument!
Indeed sometimes it would be easier to class congressmen and senators in categories as morons/idiots and such becauses labelling them democrat and republican seems redundant. Wilson did his stupid thing, which should be taken as an opportunity for the democrats to makes something of the bipartisan craziness that’s been nonstop since Obama made it to office and leave it at that. Obama accepted the apology and that was cool, because you know what? There’s more important things that need to get done instead of bullying and embarassing people. Congress welcome to the world’s largest sandbox.
The bipartisan craziness was this rampant way before we even knew who Obama was, all but maybe one (insert your favorite here)of all politicians are liars, to shout it out is silly and redundant. To keep bringing up that he said it is beyond stupid.
“To snatch defeat from the jaws of victory…”
I think they should just bring him front and center and point out that he actually voted to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare.
Totally agree with PAD.
Does anybody remember when the president compared his lack of bowling skills with the Special Olympics on Leno?
That’s because he apologized immediately and moved on.
Democrats just don’t get it.
Naturally, this post will be forgotten by the right-wing trolls who like to accuse Peter of being a biased left-winger. 🙂
That goes without saying and yet, paradoxically, is worth noting.
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PAD
This right-winger officially takes notice.
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But is still required to say this is a much softer blow than the Republicans have been getting on this site in the last few weeks.
This left-winger must observe that that right-winger is displaying a not-atypical skewed worldview. The last few weeks? Going back to August 3, I made no blog entries about the GOP. You actually have to go all the way back to July 3 for me to say something about Republicans, and that was about Sarah Palin. The harsh blow? I said resigning was a smart move because it cleared the decks for a run at the presidency. Wow. Harsh blow.
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PAD
1. I’m surprised, PAD, that you would use the phrase “skewed worldview” as if there were actually people who didn’t have one. Are you suggesting that there are people who are actually capable of total objectivity?
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2. I was counting your original post about Joe Wilson, made Sept. 10, as a blow against the Republican party. Check some of your comments under the post.
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3. I was also counting your entries regarding gay marriage and separation of church and state. You were more attacking idea that are typically held by right-wingers in stead of right-winger themselves (although you gave me a mighty wallop regarding my view on gay marriage), so maybe I should have distinguished.
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N.B. I would never ask you to stop saying anything you’ve been saying. Go Free Speech.
MrBlake siad:
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“I would never ask you to stop saying anything you’ve been saying. Go Free Speech.”
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Good thing you wouldn’t ask, as I think PAD would continue whether you liked it or not.
Just trying to make sure he or anyone else can’t pin such a claim on me. I am a Republican, you know, I’ll sacrifice the freedom of others for more personal security.
1. I’m surprised, PAD, that you would use the phrase “skewed worldview” as if there were actually people who didn’t have one. Are you suggesting that there are people who are actually capable of total objectivity?
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You ignore the words in front of “skewed worldview,” namely “not atypical.” The skew of your particular right-leaning worldview is to claim that any opinion voiced on a topic that leans left of your views is an attack on the GOP, even if the GOP is not mentioned, even it’s irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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2. I was counting your original post about Joe Wilson, made Sept. 10, as a blow against the Republican party. Check some of your comments under the post.
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Well, obviously. But that was followed up a day or so later by a shot at the Democrats. You tried to assert that the GOP was getting a continued shellacking “over the past weeks.” That is demonstrably untrue.
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3. I was also counting your entries regarding gay marriage and separation of church and state. You were more attacking idea that are typically held by right-wingers in stead of right-winger themselves (although you gave me a mighty wallop regarding my view on gay marriage), so maybe I should have distinguished.
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And in distinguishing you would have had to admit that your assertion that I was attacking the GOP was wrong. My neighbors down the street are staunch Democrats and consider themselves liberals…and they’re against gay marriage. I have no reason to think there aren’t plenty more like them. The fact that because I attacked an idea, you automatically saw it as an attack on the GOP is–I say again–not atypical of (if you wish) the particular skew of mindset that right wing conservatives typically display.
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Clear?
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PAD
You’re right, PAD, I was interpreting attacks on people who hold dissenting opinions from you as attacks on right-wingers. My mistake.
You’re right, PAD, I was interpreting attacks on people who hold dissenting opinions from you as attacks on right-wingers. My mistake.
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Okay, then.
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PAD
And it seems to me quite obvious that this is the typical decisive inaction that our elected Congressional representatives thrive upon. NO ONE thinks that interrupting the President was a good idea (and even Wilson tried to write off his actions, but leave that for now.)
But it is a publicly observed event for which Those Who Safeguard Our Values can rise up and take a stand, showing Their Dedication To Protecting America! If they beat it to death, they show that THEY care! This can’t be passed over – it is An Insult To America and Must Be Dealt With.
Urgent matters aren’t important. PUBLIC and VISIBLE matters are the important thing!
Your tax dollars in action… shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I remain,
Sincerely,
Eric L. Sofer
The Bad Clown
x<]:o){
US House passes resolution of disapproval against Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) 240-179.
Interesting new Gallup poll today also shows a majority of Republicans (52% in total) opposed the “You Lie” outburst by Wilson. Which means that the House Republicans who sided with Wilson are again out of step with their own rank and file voters.
Hm…they (the Democrats) might be able to play this to make him one of the faces of a very disconnected and somewhat…backwards…Republican party. It will be hard; the Dems are in the clear underdog column for 2010. If the economy gets better (note I don’t say “if the recession ends”; I think that’s immaterial. The experts say it could take 8-10 years to recover after the Great Recession is over) that may be a counterbalance, but I’m not hopeful.
Frankly, I think they’re grabbin’ for anything they can…
PAD,
Good point. What the Democrats have done is keep the story ALIVE! They may think that spotlighting a white Southern Congressmen while they and the pundits subtly or not so subtly label him a bigot is good politics. It’s not. The attempt to villify all those who disagree with Obama as racists shows a very narrow worldview, contradicts the fact that he was elected and tends to piss people off, even his supporters.
By keeping this ‘story” alive, the Democrats have also actually made people forget how irrational the Republicans/conservatives seemed to be over Obama’s school speech. Talk about picking your battles! That was a case where even I, who would have voted Dubya to a third term if I could, was like, “You’re not serious guys, right? You’re not really making a big deal out of this, right? You do realize how silly you look to many, right?”
Because what it comes down to is, when you have the outrage meter constantly set at 10, people are going to tune out and ignore you when some subject actually comes close to justify it being turned up that high.
And by focusing on “getting” Wilson, rather than using the President’s speech to positively push health care reform they have been trying to achieve for decades, Democrats have squandered an opportunity to use the positive momentum gained from the speech – which is now back down to pre-speech levels – for cheap political points. Heck, I don’t even think it’s cheap political points, since I don’t feel they have won over many people who aren’t inclined to detest people like Wilson anyway. This is bulying, plain and simple. And it’s backfiring. Big time.
Ok, Wilson’s “You lie!” shout was undignified at best. I won’t defend that, although I do like a good shake-up when politicians are making all their noise.
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What I notice during Presidents Obama’s speech, just before the shout, was that Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Vice-President Joe Biden seemed to be having a little chit-chat while the President was speaking. It’s the first time I noticed such an event (my brother had told me to watch for the Pelosi Death Glare is why I spotted it) and I wonder if that is considered to be rude or not.
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I’m not trying to detract from Wilson’s rude behavior. But I am curious as to whether the Speaker and Vice-President, not just Biden and Pelosi but ANY of them, often chit-chat during a Presidential speech or if this was an isolated incident. I’ve never really looked for it before.
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If it happens often I would like to get me a lip-reader to see just what is being said while the President is speaking.
Since it was Biden and Pelosi talking I think we can safely assume it wasn’t the second coming of the Algonquin Round Table.
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I seem to remember a few speeches where congressmen were obviously sleeping.
Hey Bill,
I’m going to have to admit that I had to look up the Algonquin Round Table reference. Been meaning to for a long time, really. It doesn’t really fit the idea I was trying to convey. I was just wondering if it is considered rude or not.
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Either way it can’t be as rude as congressional representative sleeping at such a function. I think the penalty for such an infraction is a nationally televised practical joke on the sleeper in question. Let’s refer to it as a “Wake-up Call.”
Saturday Night Live did a few gag State of the Union sketches where they would actually cut to real shots of the politicians sleeping, smirking, looking like they were sucking on sour pickles, etc.
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Me, if I knew I were being filmed I’d be carefully maintaining a completely uninteresting look.
I’m going to have to admit that I had to look up the Algonquin Round Table reference. Been meaning to for a long time, really. It doesn’t really fit the idea I was trying to convey. I was just wondering if it is considered rude or not.
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I’ve seen the VP and Speaker of many administrations lean over and speak softly to each other any number of times. As long as they’re not loud enough to distract the President or flipping him off or making faces, I don’t see it as a faux pas.
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As for the Algonquin Round Table, generally references to the ART are used sarcastically, in that the ART was the height of brilliant intellectual stimulation and witty repartee and typically anyone being compared to it is implied to be on the shallow end of the pool. One of my favorite references was from the series “The West Wing”–
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SAM: Screw the moment. I can’t go.
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C.J.:Well, I’m afraid — as we used to say in my hometown — that’s just hard
cheese.
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SAM: That’s a real Algonquin Round Table you grew up with, C.J.
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C.J.: Hey, that is like the fourth time I’ve been called dumb today.
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PAD
Bill, If I knew I were being filmed I’d break into the stand-up material I’ve written. Then again, I’m the guy who stares at the security cameras while scratching himself. I’m just looking to give someone something to talk about at the dinner table.
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I admit I never really caught much SNL due to time constrains and TV sketch comedy became too safe or “family friendly” for my taste.
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PAD, I’m also assuming (I know, bad habit) that the VP and Speaker usually know ahead of time what the President’s speech covers when he’s making that address, especially if the media knows a day ahead of time what will be covered.
Tally Ho!
Mitch
Dammit!
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PAD, I meant that post above as a sort of agreement with your “I don’t see it as a faux pas” comment.
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I really must proof read more often.
Ballyhoo!
M
Given that in that very speech the President was calling his loyal opposition a pack of liars… I think all sides should just let it go and start over with a new pack of lies since none of the old wrongs seem to be making a right anyway.