So Kathleen happened to have the radio on this morning, tuned to a sports radio talk show. And it seemed that the volume and intensity of the discussion was inversely proportional to the degree of importance-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things that the subject matter had.
And all I could think of was how grotesquely unfair it is that science fiction and comics fans are tagged as nerds and dweebs and treated in a condescending manner when sports fans are just as “bad” if not “worse.” I mean, where the hëll does the media get off being snotty about fans who are dressed as Klingons when you can go to any Yankees game and see 1800 guys wearing jerseys that say “Jeter” on the back. The Klingon language may be incomprehensible, but no less so than watching two sports fanatics tossing around stats, names and abbreviations (“When he wasn’t able to DH he was HBP and wound up on the DL when his ERA was 0.73, or else he would have been MVP.”) How is it 1500 people, mostly sober, spending a weekend enjoying a mutual interest at a hotel and talking about space exploration, how to avoid global warming, and whether the Hulk can beat Superman…how is that automatically inferior to 43,000, mostly drunkly drunk, spending a day enjoying a mutual interest at a stadium and talking about playoffs, how to avoid the line at the bathroom, and whether the 1953 Dodgers could beat the 1962 Yankees?
Plus science fiction fans have only the Sci-Fi Channel. Sports fans have ESPN, ESPN 2, ESPN Classic. Golf. There’s a golf channel. A whole channel dedicated to Golf, for God’s sake. That’s like having a whole channel devoted to “Voyager.” And how are fantasy baseball leagues any weirder than local chapters of Starfleet? And where do people get off being snotty about Renfaires when there are those fantasy baseball camps that some organizations offer, where you pay big bucks to dress up like a baseball player for a week? At least Renfaire’s don’t set you back a few thousand bucks.
So what makes us nerdy and them “mainstream? Because it’s “big business?” Maybe the only way science fiction and comic book conventions will gain genuine respectability is if they become designed, not for socialization or debate, but about being as aggressive as possible about separating fans from their money. You know: LIke pro sports.
PAD
• 
With respect to global warming, the new movie ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ is definitely worth watching.
Brian
Comedian Toby Hadoke has a great routine about Doctor Who fans and football (the British kind) fans… how they both watch their heroes on TV on a Saturday… the intimate knowledge of history… how it brings families together… the scarves… etc.
I was channel surfing last night just before bed and I thought I saw WCW(or WWE) wresleing on the Sci Fi channel. Can someone who was more awake than I was confirm this?
Y’know, when I first heard of that wrestling was coming to Sci-Fi Channel, for one crazy moment I thought that the KWF (Klingon Wrestling Federation) would finally come into existence.
Sadly, it was just ECW instead.
If I want to pay seven bucks to see an old politician with a projector talk about science beyond his ken…. I want to be beaten severely until I come back to my senses.
At the point where I pay money to see Al Gore preach persuasive about science-thing is the day I should be declared “incompetent” in a court of law and put in the care of a nurse.
I confess that the necktie should have tipped me off (I haven’t seen the flick) but isn’t that an understandable mistake for an observer to make?
Well, honest unless, in your case, that honesty offends some one because you hadn’t bothered to check the facts – in this case, you didn’t check to see which character the fellow was portraying. And the two characters in the film are dressed quite differently. 🙂
Just recently, on some forum or other, I saw somebody make the comment that people who play video games are nerds.
I confess, I kind of scratched my head a bit, especially when you consider that more money is probably made these days from video games than Hollywood movies, which means we’re not talking about a small segment of the population here, to which the term ‘geek’ usually applies.
I’ve gone to Chicago for a Cubs Convention. I’ve gone to San Diego for a ComicCon.
When it comes down to it, they’re both equal, and it’s getting pretty dámņ old that sci-fi/fantasy/gamers can be pìššëd on by sports fans as if we’re a lower life form or something, when just as many sports fans are over the edge about their teams.
Hëll, I think you can just boil it down to human nature. It’s the whole “our tribe vs the other” thing.
They’re not us and therefore they’re kinda strange. And we can hurt them if they’re weaker then us (or just believed to be so). That other tribe isn’t that different then us so we can kinda get along with them (up to a point) and they can maybe help us with beating up on that first tribe.
Humans seem to work that way no matter what they do. It seems to be how most countries are often run and it seems to be how even the smallest factions of any sort of fandom acts. Science fiction and fantasy fans just get it in the end more often from the media and culture as a whole because most cultures seem to put displays of power (strength, sports, war) on a higher pedestal then they do most intellectual pursuits. And enjoyment of the imagination by adults seems to be seen as the lowest form of even those pursuits.
We can even see the tribe fractures in or own little world of fandom. I know people who love science fiction but think that fantasy is pure drivel and will argue, loudly and with great emotion, with anyone who says otherwise. Trek fans VS (fill in the blank) and vice versa anybody? Hëll, the dumbest thing I ever saw was a group of fans arguing, almost violently, about whether the Seaquest was a faster ship then Starbug.
We all do it. How many times has someone you know, or even you, slagged on someone else’s sci-fi likes because you couldn’t fathom how anyone could ever like whatever film, actor or series? Like most everything else, we only really notice it and take offense when it’s directed at us.
But, having said all that, I will agree that we often get the shortest end of all the sticks society likes to bludgeon groups with.
“… but the Sci Fi channel has done worse. Way worse. RAPTER ISLAND worse.”
Come on…… House of the Dead II made that look like a Shakespearian production. And this is coming from someone who is a total zombie geek.
“I was channel surfing last night just before bed and I thought I saw WCW(or WWE) wresleing on the Sci Fi channel. Can someone who was more awake than I was confirm this?”
ECW. USA channel didn’t want to add the latest WWE offering to its channel as it already runs three to five hours of it a week so NBC Universal (USA and Sci-Fi’s parent company) decided that Sci-Fi was the perfect home for it. They at least demanded that the show have zombies, vampires and the like on it. Somehow, it doesn’t strike me as any odder then some of the other stuff that has been running on Sci-Fi lately. Law and Order? Murder mystery movies? I think Sci-Fi may be close to ending as the science fiction network and may be slowly transitioning into a baby USA.
” Somehow, it doesn’t strike me as any odder then some of the other stuff that has been running on Sci-Fi lately. Law and Order? Murder mystery movies?”
Eh? I haven’t noticed any Law and Order on Sci-Fi. I haven’t noticed any murder mysteries, either. Are you sure you were watching Sci-Fi?
WHO is talking about Global Warming at a sci-fi or comic convention?? I doubt that is the topic of choice after talking about Star Trek or Superman vs. Hulk. Oh, I get it you say it’s a topic at these conventions because it’s science fiction, got it. PAD, sometimes you seem soo left you’re almost right. ; )
Wrong on all counts. Pretty much every fan-run (i.e. not Creation) sf convention has a signifcant science, not science fiction, programming track. And it’s a standard trope among convention programmers that the attendance for a science item will almost always be significantly more than you initially think.
And while it’s no longer the case, at least San Diego Comic-Con also used to have science programming.
I’m pretty sure of this because 1) I’ve been on lots of science program items, including at San Diego and 2) I’ve been involved with convention programming.
Oh, and Peter? ’53 Dodgers in six over the ’62 Yankees.
Unsurprisingly, THE ONION said it best: “Walking Sports Database Scorns Walking Sci-Fi Database” (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38664)
>I don’t think it’s a matter of not caring enough. I just think it’s the work of someone who has spent the last quarter of a century not writing stories at all.
In the re-released DVD set of THX 1138, Lucas admits that Francis Ford Coppola had Lucas write – under protest – the screenplay for the theatrical version of Lucas’ student film, but when Lucas handed him the finished script, Coppola looked at it and told him “You were right. You’re no screenwriter.”
“don’t think it’s a matter of not caring enough. I just think it’s the work of someone who has spent the last quarter of a century not writing stories at all. My writing style and skills have changed a great deal in the past several decades. I look at stuff I wrote back then and wince. George Lucas’ writing style hasn’t changed from the 1970s, back in the days when Harrison Ford once threatened to tie him to a chair and make him speak his own dialogue aloud. And he’s surrounded by people whom, I suspect, can’t or won’t say “No” or “God no” or “George, this sucks.”
What he HAS been working on for a quarter of a century is special effects. That’s why the films look so good.”
That sounds right. When you see him on interviews, Lucas doesn’t seem to get the criticism against the new Star Wars movies. I guess he sincerely believed there was WMD in these scripts.
Part of the problem is that the fans still payed to see these movies, so he was never penalized in the box-office. I’m afraid to see what will happen if he tried to go back to Indiana Jones.
It’s amazing that the old movies came out as well as they did. It probably helped that ywo of them weren’t directed by Lucas.
Still, although it is probably true that the new Star Wars trilogy was not the result of carelessness, It still has the feel as if very little effort was put on structuring the story or characters well. Probably because of the focus on special effects.
—————-
“Hëll, I think you can just boil it down to human nature. It’s the whole “our tribe vs the other” thing.”
True. I never get the need of groups of people to put other people down.
I was channel surfing last night just before bed and I thought I saw WCW(or WWE) wresleing on the Sci Fi channel. Can someone who was more awake than I was confirm this?
It’s the reincarnation of the beloved ECW brand. Probably doomed to failure what with the WWE’s inability to let Paul Heyman present his undiluted vision, the toll of the last 5 years on the ECW stars, the fact that much of what made the brand unique has been used by the WWE and teh Sci Fi Channel’s insistance on utilizing some kind of Science Fiction/horror element in the shows (Which has so far been nothing more than having Sandman beating up a guy dressed as a zombie) (though actually, they COULD probably have some succesful horror elements in the show, in the manner of the original Kane and the Brood).
Wrestling geek. That’s me. Yes, it IS rather sad.
The big change in dialogue between the Star Wars trilogies?
No re-writers.
The original trilogy, Lucas had(at least according to a couple of my books which I’m too dámņ tired to think of the titles of right now) three or four dialogue writers that would take the basic scenes and human-ize the dialogue.
Man’s brilliant with coming up with scenarios, ot at least adapting them and blending them. His dialogue, though, needs work. A LOT of work.
“I have a simple response to people who make such silly comments: how many city centers have SF/comics fans (even HULK fans) trashed? How many city centers have sports fans trashed when their favourite team won/lost The Big Game?
The defense rests.”
****
Perhaps we have gotten to the meat of the situation. If someone mocks sci-fi fans, they don’t think they’re in danger… if they mock sports fans, they may get their ášš kicked.
Your rapists and murderers comment was a bit unfair. Many – if not most pro athletes – do a lot of good.
Oh, for the love of Christ. I never said or insinuated that all or even most professional athletes are rapists or murderers. Those that are, however, see very little, if any, by way of actual consequences of their actions. The same way with many other celebrities. A popular athlete who has committed a crime will be bailed out, get a token slap on the wrist, and be back on the field for the big game, and thousands of people will be cheering for him as if he were man of the year. Sure, he got drunk and beat a guy half to death over a høøkër, but he sure can run fast. What a hero…
And it’s debatable how much actual good a lot of the other pros do, even if they are law-abiding citizens. Some do, that’s a given. But a great many are just whining, money-grubbing prima donnas.
I know, I have a particularly dim view of pro sports in the US, but when Indianapolis builds ANOTHER stadium for the Colts instead of fixing our outdated sewers or crummy streets, or letting an internationally renowned ballet company go under instead of spending any cash on the arts, that sort of thing can happen.
-Rex Hondo-
The big change in dialogue between the Star Wars trilogies?
No re-writers.
*nods*
I think Lucas is a lot like Tolkien. Both are tremendously talented world-builders, but when their creations really get to shine is when others get to play in the sandbox. The LOTR movies blow the books out of the water, and a lot of the SW Expanded Universe stuff makes the prequel films look particularly crudely written.
-Rex Hondo-
“The worst thing you can do is take the word “nerd” as an insult.
I used to, but that was a long time ago. These days I’m proud to call myself a geek!”
Sure, next time try telling a black guy not to take offense when a non-black calls him a ņìggër.
If you call yourself something and mean it as a compliment, it doesn’t mean someone else means it that way when they use it. Just listen to how Ann Coulter transforms the word “liberal”.
“Sure, next time try telling a black guy not to take offense when a non-black calls him a ņìggër.”
Wow, what an incredible exageration of my statement.
Why don’t you go ahead and compare me to Nazis? I know you want to!
I think what Peter was trying to say is that it is one thing to call yourself a geek. It is another thing for someone else to call you a geek. Or more accurately, it is another thing for someone else to call you a geek and stick your head in the toilet and tap the flushing mechanism.
“Stick your head in the toilet and tap the flushing mechanism” falls into the “sticks and stones” category, in that it’s a physical attack. That doesn’t happen because of people finding a social group or any of the other things mentioned in this thread. It’s a violent attack that would have been directed at *somebody* even if the grouping issue didn’t exist.
And yes, when you call yourself a geek and stop worrying about it, it stops mattering what anyone else calls you. If someone calls you a geek and you are, no problem. If someone calls you a gearhead and you don’t like cars, then you don’t get insulted because it’s not insulting it’s just inaccurate. If someone physically attacks you, then his opinion about science fiction is irrelevant!
Peter’s comment was absurd. Even the extremes of jocks vs. nerds is nowhere near the racial hatred that he’s comparing it to. It’s a gigantic exaggeration and not the least bit applicable to the conversation.
“Man’s brilliant with coming up with scenarios, ot at least adapting them and blending them. His dialogue, though, needs work. A LOT of work.”
“I think Lucas is a lot like Tolkien. Both are tremendously talented world-builders, but when their creations really get to shine is when others get to play in the sandbox. The LOTR movies blow the books out of the water, and a lot of the SW Expanded Universe stuff makes the prequel films look particularly crudely written.”
The problem was not only with the dialogue. The prequels were bad on so many levels even the catering sucked. The scenarios were prety bad too; not well structured or tied up together. Some of the characters had unused potential, but that can be said about everything in those movies. I used to think the battle scenes were good, but now I can’t even say that. Character interaction also didn’t really work. [It is difficult to explain why I think these things didn’t work without going into detail, so this discussion might be pointless].
World creating? I’ve read books in which world creation was good and the rest not so. But it is unfair to Tolkein and Lucas to say that about them. Tolkein was a briliant world creator, but much more than that. The characters and story may be old fashioned, but they worked. Lucas may be great at visualizing worlds, but not at creating them in the more detailed sense. He missed completely on his attempt to create the final stages of the Old Republic,
He is really good at the visuals. But you know what, even that got tarnished for me because he seemed to be using the movies to compete with other directors. The homage to Spartacus in the Phantom Menace was pretty cool. But the Gladiator arena in Attack of the Clones and the Titanic and River of Lava in the third movie were a little embarassing. I’m happy that Lucas’s lava river is bigger than Peter Jackson’s, but as far as a story is concerned Lucas’s river seemed hollow.
I don’t think the LOTR movies were distinctly better than the books. Most of the time the movies did a really good job of transfering the books to movie format. When they didn’t it was not bad but not better than the books either.
A trilogy I’d like to see turn into a movie — Dragonlance. It is a pretty straighforward story, not to complicated or long, very suited for movies. Good carcters more modern than LOTR. Decent roles for women. And with the right director great visuals. More colorful palette than LOTR. Yimou Zhang (House of the Flying Daggers) should direct, or Ang Lee. I think it would be a box office success.
—————–
I think nerds are more oppressed in the US than other countries is because of the high status of sports and the competitive nature of society. In American society nerds are not only weird, they are ‘loosers.’
I know, Jason, I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek and not very successful at it.
Micha hit it hard. Tolkien, Lucas, and Roddenberry for that matter, all created something great, but it’s only the foundation. It’s the starting point. It’s where it all begins, but it’s the details that others have added.
Dragonlance the Movie, huh? Never a big fan, myself. Just couldn’t get into them. I really think if any TSR properties got made into a movie, I’d love to see some of Salvatore’s Realms books. But that’s just the fanboy in me. That’s one of the reasons I hope they DON’T make them. As good as Jackson’s LOTR movies are, and as much as I like watching them, I kinda lost something when I watched them. I always pictured Aragorn a lot scruffier than Jackson made him, Arwen a lot more exotic, and I’m still disappointed that Bombadil was nowhere to be found. But now, when I think of the characters, I can’t help but picture Mortensen and Tyler. Drizzt lives in my mind’s eye, along with the rest, and no matter how close they come, no one will ever be the Drizzt in my head.
I have people in my head. Rooms are available cheap. Not like I’m using the space up there, anyway.
A trilogy I’d like to see turn into a movie — Dragonlance.
http://www.Dragonlance-Movie.com
The site is a decade old, but there’s fresh news for you. 🙂
“Eh? I haven’t noticed any Law and Order on Sci-Fi. I haven’t noticed any murder mysteries, either. Are you sure you were watching Sci-Fi?”
Yeah. The channel ran a one night block (about two or three weeks ago) of Law & Order: SVU eps that were a little X-File-ish in their storyline. My wife is a huge L&O fan and that’s how we ended up watching it. The Sunday after that they ran a seriel killer movie.
“Wrestling geek. That’s me. Yes, it IS rather sad.”
Wrestling geeks rule the world.
“A trilogy I’d like to see turn into a movie — Dragonlance.”
I could live with the first trilogy but I would die for the twins trilogy.
Jerry C-
OoooOOooo the twins trilogy. I’d watch that. but who would you cast as the twins?
Kath
I used to always answer that by saying that I would want unkowns in the roles. Now, while still not sure who would make a perfect Caramon, I would pay dámņ good money to see Raistlin played by Cillian Murphy.
I personally don’t see what the problem is with the Star Wars prequels. I think they’re great movies, and certainly an improvement over Return of the Jedi (the first two, anyway. Episode III had quite a few problems that kept it from being on the same level as the rest of the series).
Really? I thought Episode III was a significant improvement over the other prequels.
My roommate has some serious plotting issues with Episode I. He really dislikes that they started off in one place, spent the entire movie going somewhere to get help, and then went back to where they started without getting the help they wanted. It made most of the movie seem pointless.
Episode II was “Obi Wan is holding me back! Waaaa!”
Episode III actually made me believe that Anikin had nearly legitimate reasons to think that he was doing the right things as he slid towards the dark side. It felt like it was actually doing significant things instead of just fiddling around for large chunks of time.
“Micha hit it hard. Tolkien, Lucas, and Roddenberry for that matter, all created something great, but it’s only the foundation. It’s the starting point. It’s where it all begins, but it’s the details that others have added.”
You can say a lot of things about Tolkein, but he sure got into the detals. I can think of other reasons why he seems to have lost some of his popularity. A lot of the things he invented are now cliches.His characters and the whole atmosphere of the story may seem old fashioned. They are not cool in the sense that newer characters and worlds are. But still, he deserves a little more credit, I think. I personaly like the feel of the books (and the movies), although I like other styles too.
Lucas (in the original trilogy) is no great world creator. He did not create an especially sophisticated world. The basic story is simplistic and not very original. So are the characters. But somehow it all worked out just right. All the pieces fitted together really well. It was cool. Part of it is the visual aspect. He’s a painter, not a builder of worlds or a developer of characters or plots.
Thanks Craig for the news about Dragonlance. Apparently they are working on an animated movie. In the past I would have been even happier about that. But with fantasy, sci-fi and comics related movies getting more acceptance than ever, I was hoping for more. One reason I thought of Dragonlance is because it is the first fantasy I’ve read. I’ve probably read better since then, but I have a soft spot for it. But my reasoning was also that it was a safe bet. It’s like Tolkein but more modern, more accessible to the general public. Like Star Wars (for which I also have a soft spot) it is very simple but somehow works well, although some of the characters are more sophisticated. I’m afraid an animated movie will never have the same impact as a regular movie.
I liked the Twin Trilogy, but I prefer the Chronicles. I liked the group dynamics, and as much as I liked Raistelin, I found Tanis/Laurana to be much more interesting. Fopr me they are the voice of the story. I feel it is unfortunate that Raistelin & family took over the series. A movie twin trilogy is also something to hope for. There was an actor on the Hallmark version of Hercules (there is a Hallmark channel in my part of the world) that really has a Caramon look. As for Raistelin, the important thing is that it’s a good actor who can develop he character well. Johnny Depp has a flare for roles like that, but may be too old. Cillian Murphy sounds good.
“I personally don’t see what the problem is with the Star Wars prequels. I think they’re great movies, and certainly an improvement over Return of the Jedi (the first two, anyway. Episode III had quite a few problems that kept it from being on the same level as the rest of the series).”
I suppose it is subjective. It is hard to explain why these movies worked when they did, and why they didn’t when they didn’t. On the other hand, there is a risk of getting to much into the details, because so many things bothered me about these movies. Jason only touches on a few. It was as if almost any decision he made in the movie felt wrong to me. Here are a few things:
Why the over complicated story with taxes and a trade federation, and a 16 year old democratically elected queen?
Why use an annoying little kid for the lead, thus preventing almost any character development in the first movie for Anakin?
Why waste so much time on goofiness in the first, second and third movies?
Why stick Nataly Portman in an ugly Kabookee suit and supress her personality?
Why was there no serious relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was ever developed, except that they both annoyed each other an the audience?
Why were the villain characters so underdeveloped? Darth Vader steps on the scene in the first few minuted of Star Wars, and has a presence that makes him an iconic villain. Darth Mawl is cool but does not establish a presence. Count Dooku pops suddenly in the last third of the movie with to character or motivation whatsoever.
Why so little dialogue with the old series? You would expect that significant parts of the prequel wil refer to things in the original trilogy, but when it was done it was done very badly. R2D2 and C3PO emerging out of nowhere. The foster parents of both heroes of the original trilogy have insignificant roles in the prequel at best.
And the list goes on. I don’t want to bore you even more. But the truth is that most of the time it felt like action scenes glued together. One of the few better parts was indeed the corruption of Anakin in Episode III in between the silly opening act and most of what came after.
I don’t know what’s wrong with Return of the Jedi. I know some people disliked the Ewaks, but it hardly dominated a large part of the movie. It surely was not as bad as the Gungans, or he droid factory, or the rescue scene in the beginning of III.
As you can see of been spending a lot of time obsessing about this. I should let it go, really. Move on. Take a deep breath. In any case, what was disappointing about the prequels was the feeling that little thought was invested in creating these stories, although they should probably have required more effort than the original trilogy because of the more complex story. Peter is probably right and it was not that Lucas did not bother with the developing a decent story as much as he couldn’t. But it still feels a shame, because it shouldn’t be that hard to come up with a decent story. After seeing the movies I’ve spend some time (as I often do) thinking of how things could have been done differently, and ideas started pooring out of my head. It was the only time I saw a story almost writing itself. There were son many other better ways of developing the story of Anakin. I’m certain most people on this board could have come with better ideas even if they were not skilled in writing dialogue. So it is a shame that this much expected return to the Star Wars universe ended up being so mediocre, whatever the reason.
There’s nothing WRONG with Return of the Jedi, exactly. It’s still a very good movie, I just can’t enjoy it like I can the others. The Tatooine sequence is exciting as hëll, but the rest of the movie bores me for some reason. And I actually like the Ewoks, so they’re not the problem.
As for the prequels, you’re right, it is very subjective. I was completely satisfied by them, which is all the more remarkable considering the amount of anticipation I had for them (I think I was more excited about Episode I than I was about any other movie, before or since).
I have a theory that people tend to like the first Star Wars movie they saw better. The first ipression has a very strong impact on people, so that those who saw Star Wars first might be less impressed by the time they saw Return of the Jedi, but others who were too young (such as myself) had their first impression of this kind of movie with Return of the Jedi.
The same thing is true about the new movies. If you look at Roger Ebert’s review of Episode I, he was so impressed with the visuals that he pretty much said, don’t bother me with characterization and plot, look at the underwater city, the senate etc. (What he actually said was, if you want characters watch Star Trek). So he gave it 4 stars. But by the time the two other movies came out he was not as tolerant, although the visuals were still quite impressive. It probably also helped that Episode I had two of the only characters in this trilogy whose charisma came close to that of characters in the original trilogy (Darth Maul and Liam Neesen). I personaly was very defensive of Episode I at first, because I thought the criticism came from snobs. But over time I reteroactively felt worse about it as I started thinking about the details beyond the amazing visuals. I had a similar delayed disappointed with attack of the clones.
So there is definatly a subjective aspect to it.
I don’t wanna get off on a rant here but…Hulk would kick Supes ášš….. it’ll be like “Doomsday”, and we all know how that turned out… the only limit to Banner’s strength is his rage… That flea with blue tights is gonna tick him off a little too long, and he’ll snap Jor El’s little mama’s boy like so much Kryptonite kindling…
Of course, I could be wrong.
As far as the Star Wars prequels go, personally, I would say “Revenge of the Sith” is the best, and sometimes agree with Richard Roeper (as in “Ebert & Roeper”), who called “Sith” the best Star Wars movie since “The Empire Strikes Back”. (I say “sometimes” because I particularly enjoyed “Jedi” the last time I watched it; one effect I’ve found the prequels having is that they’ve increased my appreciation for the Emperor; and also made Darth Vader’s change to the good side seem like more of a positive thing.)
“The Phantom Menace” I go back and forth about a little bit. I lost a lot of enthusiam for it after a couple of years – too much of a kiddie movie at times – but I’ve regained more of a positive feeling for it – beyond the whole “Duel of the Fates” lightsaber fight, which I’ve always loved.
“Attack of the Clones”, I think, has been the victim of too much “Phantom” backlash. People seemed to give Phantom somewhat of a free pass, since we’d waited so long for another Star Wars movie; then when Clones came out, it seemed as though some people had let disappointment with Phantom build up and then unleashed excessive venom on Clones. I very much enjoyed “Attack of the Clones” – I left the theater feeling “THIS is the movie I’ve been waiting – nineteen years, by then – to see.” (Though, to be fair, I was pretty blown away by Phantom at first, too; not THIS much, though.) I have cooled on it a little since then, but, while seeing some flaws – but hey, even Empire’s not PERFECT – I do still enjoy and respect it. …Though I do think that it would have been helped by the inclusion of the two scenes at Padme’s family home (as shown on the DVD). The commentary indicates that they liked the character-building but were concerned about length – but they could have cut the meeting with the Queen, for instance. The only thing of any significance to that scene is that Anakin bristles at being called “only a Padwan” – if they really felt they needed that for Anakin’s character, a variation on that exchange could have been worked in elsewhere. Anyway…
“Revenge” – wow. A few little disappointments here and there – I know (or strongly think, anyway) that Chewbacca was just added because the fans were like “Chewie’s 200 years old – he can be here!” – but it’s too bad that he couldn’t have had a longer and more significant appearance. (Though it was very cool to learn that he knew Yoda.); pity Vader – fully-suited Vader – didn’t have more to say… But, IMHO, this was an excellent and satisfying conclusion to the Star Wars saga. There was no way that it could have completely satisfied everyone who had waited for and anticipated this movie for decades; but, for me, it was powerful enough that I spent several minutes just sitting in the car after first seeing it, and took a while to completely return to normal. The action and the emotion, and the surprises… There is a lot that I love in this movie.
The prequels are at a bit of a disadvantage because of the charisma and comraderie of the original saga’s cast. The way those characters just WORKED together – the pre-trilogy doesn’t quite have something to compare to that. I will say that I’m a lot more fond of Obi Wan Kenobi after the prequels (not that I didn’t like him before), and that Padme and Anakin’s relationship seemed more moving and real to me – even before it went bad – in Sith.
As far as the dialogue goes – some of it could work a little better. But, I do think that Lucas may have been going for a more formal approach with Padme, a Senator and former Queen, and Anakin, a Jedi Knight. If one looks at some of the works in the past involving royal courtship, the sometimes-stiffness of the conversation here seems a little more understandable. (Not that the formality is totally consistent…) And part of the problem is the expecations caused by the Episodes IV-VI characters. They were a lot more coloquial in their dialogue – but they were also, for the most part, from more lower class backgrounds. Leia’s a princess, of course, but she can snap back and forth between styles – “your foul stench” and such. (Maybe she gets the more casual talk from her adoptive mother? We never did hear how she talks…) And look at Luke in “Return of the Jedi” – he’s a lot more stiff in that movie, after he has more or less become a Jedi Knight.
To get back to the orignal topic of this thread for a second: I can write this longish essay about the Star Wars movies, and I’m a big Denver Broncos fan who watches an hour of sports discussion shows (Around the Horn and Pardon the Interruption) on ESPN every day, five days a week. What does that make me – a jock geek? 😉
Be passionate about what you love. I love sci-fi AND sports. I have been a Detroit Pistons fan since I was 9. I have only been a STAR TREK fan since I was 11. BUT I have spent much much MUCH more money on my sci-fi passion than I have on my love of the Pistons. On a quick estimate I have spent about $3,000 on sci-fi stuff. I think total I have spent less than $300 on the Pistons. So don’t tell me that sci-fi and RenFest doesn’t separate me from my money.
I love the theatre, too; I think I have spent well over $600 on plays and musicals.
So even while I have spent significantly less on my Pistons, 80% of my friends will tell you I am a sports nut but never mention my love of the theatre. Besides, it all depends on who you roll with. My friends dog me out for my interest in sports and don’t think twice about debating details of the third season of VOYAGER.
EVERY group will be ridiculed for something. If the ridicule bothers you, you just don’t love it enough. Here you are spouting off about the ridiculousness of the sports fanbase. So I may raise my voice and get excited about the competition and thrill of a game, but I do the same thing when I talk about books, series, politics, theatre, and SF. Raising your volume is part of showing your excitement.
How sad a person’s life must be if they have nothing in it that they care enough about to be excited about.
I hate for this to be a ‘me too’ post, but I have always thought the exact same thing. Just recently on a Star Wars forum I watch someone posted a link where someone who obviously has a problem with Sci-Fi fans was commenting on the costumes worn by some attendies of a convention: http://krautboy.livejournal.com/243291.html
I admit that some of the costumes deserved to be put down, but some were actually well done (‘Ziggy Stardust’ and the ‘Star Spangled Trooper’, for example). But this person put all down equally.
Meanwhile, adult men can go to a football game in near zero weather in duo-color body paint and a rainbow ‘fro wig, and still somehow be considered ‘cool’ and ‘normal’ :-/. To paraphrase a certain frog: “It ain’t easy being Geek’ 🙂
I may be one of the few that is a fan of both sports and sci-fi… and here in Atlanta, besides the cable stations you mentioned with sports, we also have…
ESPN U – university sports
Comcast Sports South
OLN – which is now a sports channel for the most part…
Fox Sports South
Turner South – which was purchased by Fox and is now a sports station.
The Tennis Channel
Fox Sports World
The NFL Network
The Falcons Channel
The Braves Channel
the PPV channels for every sport…
and I know there are a few more i have skipped…
Is it even legal in the US not to be into sports?
I can’t be sure, but I doubt any other culture is as concerned with sports as the American, including countries that are fanatic about certain sports.
(I’m not trying to put down Americans, this is just an observation. Different cultures have different quircks to their collective personalities).
It would seem that the people who make fun of geeks don’t do it because geeks don’t like sports (although some don’t), as much as that they (the ‘jocks’) do not like Sci-Fi.
It also seems that these streotypes are mostly myths perpetuated by popular culture. It is interesting that even shows that try to present a positive view of geeks often helps perpetuate the stereotype, and also usually differentiates between the false geeks, who are actually models who will be cool if they took off their glasses and brushed their hair, and the real geeks, that are beyond help.
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Despite the subjective differences of our appreciation of the star wars prequels I share many similar impressions about these movies as the ones mentioned above.
I also had a first enthusiastic impression of episodes I and II when I watched them. I actually came to episode II with a lot more enthusiasm, feeling that in this movie there will be actual character development and interaction (the first one was almost a complete waste in that regard). But after a while the more I thought back on the movies the more disappointed I became. Not because of how they compared to the original trilogy, but because of the wasted potential of these stories. When I watched them a second time I was no longer dazzled by the effects, and even more disappointed by what was missing from the story development point of view. Maybe I’m ruining them even more for myself by overthinking about them.
By the third movie I was already ready for the experience, and had a pretty clear idea what I would like to see, how I would have done it and what to expect. The core of the movie was a satisfying conclusion. It almost had to be. anakin had to be corrupted, the Republic had to fall, the Jedi had to die. I think I had a better idea about how to handle Padme (I have the whole scene in my mind). But it was satisfying.
“”Duel of the Fates” lightsaber fight”
It always bothered me that it was two fighting against one.
“Though I do think that it would have been helped by the inclusion of the two scenes at Padme’s family home (as shown on the DVD). The commentary indicates that they liked the character-building but were concerned about length – but they could have cut the meeting with the Queen, for instance. The only thing of any significance to that scene is that Anakin bristles at being called “only a Padwan” – if they really felt they needed that for Anakin’s character, a variation on that exchange could have been worked in elsewhere. Anyway…”
Bad editing to exclude character building scenes while having overlong special effects scenes, especially the one in the factory. I went further thinking of complete scenes that needed to be added or rearranged. Thinking too much again.
“The prequels are at a bit of a disadvantage because of the charisma and comraderie of the original saga’s cast.”
that was a major problem. Is it bad directing or just bad luck?
“I will say that I’m a lot more fond of Obi Wan Kenobi after the prequels”
I actually felt that he was cheated as a character. A strong relationship with Anakin was never established. In a way, the character of Qui-Gon was a mistake since he stole Obi-Wan’s chance to develop a real relationship with Anakin. Things did not really iprove in the second, and by the third it was too late. Maybe Lucas was lucky. In the old trilogy the relationships were less important but somehow created themselves, but in the new trilogy more intense and layered relationships between the characters than he could provide were required.
I also think you are too tolerant as far as the dialogue is concerned. But I’ve pretty much shifted from being too apologetic to being too critical and disappointed as the result of overthinking. I felt as if Lucas missed an opportunity because he ‘didn’t bother to spend as much time on writing and directing as on special effects and the creature and planet workshop. But PAD is probably right and he meant well.
I can’t be sure, but I doubt any other culture is as concerned with sports as the American
You are aware that the World Cup is going on, right? 🙂
Bah! Don’t get me started about the World Cup. Every Italian yahoo (let me stress, I’m Italian-Irish-American) in my neighborhood (Astoria, Queens, NY)is running around draped in the Italian flag honking their horns endlessly into the night. You would’ve thought we caught Osama and all our boys are coming home. What gets me is that I know these Italy fans are probably third-generation Italian-Americans, aren’t into soccer at all and probably have never visited the homeland. I embrace my cultures’ contributions to the world, but I don’t use my culture as a crutch to feel smug and superior. (In my mind, I’m a New Yorker first, an American second and a person of Italian and Irish descent last.) It’s the same reason I hate ethnic pride parades. Cultural pride is another way of saying collective low-self esteem. Throw in the factor of sports yahooism and you have mega-ton hooliganism.