Over in her on-line blog at Comicon.com, in an entry entitled “Quality or Ramifications”…since apparently the two are mutually exclusive…Heidi MacDonald cited a question asked by a retailer during the Spidey press conference on September 1. The retailer said his readers were concerned that they would read eleven issues of Spider-Man having “spider-cancer” and at the end of the storyline, he’d be cured, and there’d be no ramifications. He asked if if there would be any lasting impact as a consequence of the storyline. I said, “Yes.” Heidi then wrote:
“The Pulse’s transcript doesn’t make it clear, but David’s yes meant tat (sic) there would, indeed be ramifications.
“Which made us wonder…what “ramifications” did WATCHMEN have? or DARK KNIGHT? Or SANDMAN?
We have no idea of THE OTHER will be any good, but we would have thought that a good, solid story would sell more in the long run than mere ramifications.”
An interesting question. Would that Heidi had actually asked it during the press conference. Instead, with over a dozen retailers and on-line reporters there, as I recall she was the only one who took a pass on asking any questions whatsoever. Of course, maybe she hadn’t thought of it at the time. She could have e-mailed me later. Or gotten my phone number at the Dragon*Con hotel from Marvel and called me. Didn’t do either. Oookay.
In answer to the question directed to me that she never actually asked, I submit the following scenario:
“Peter, will there be ramifications?”
“Well, you know, why can’t we just tell a good story and let that be enough?”
“So you’re saying there will be no long term impact after fans have invested in twelve issues of this storyline.”
“I didn’t say that. But I can guarantee you it’ll be a really good story.”
That loud thud you would then hear would be orders dropping like a rock. So I’ll go with my answer rather than Heidi’s, thanks.
And as for her other question, the obvious answer is that it shows a shocking lapse of understanding of the nature and requirements of on-going serialized stories as compared to series with a beginning, middle and end. In picking up limited series in particular, all readers are looking for is a good story. When they’re being asked to embark on reading a mega-crossover and investing the time and money into reading books they ordinarily aren’t reading, a good story simply isn’t enough. Perhaps it should be…but it’s not. As the retailer’s question makes clear, they want to know they’re going to be present at a major turning point in the protagonist’s fictional life. That’s part of what MAKES it a good story. As a matter of fact–and this is purely speculation on my part–it may well be that one of the reasons various limited or spin-off series nowadays have such a rough slog in terms of sales is specifically because they’re seen as NOT having any sort of impact on the “main” storylines presented in the ongoing titles.
And the less obvious answer is, Yes, you bet your ášš the series in question had ramifications. “Watchmen” and “Dark Knight” were responsible for launching a grim-and-gritty mentality into comics that continues to this day (“Identity Crisis” owes far more to Moore and Miller than it does to Marv Wolfman). And the ramification of “Sandman” was that it was responsible for launching the entire “Vertigo” line. The ramifications of “Sandman” are “Fables” and “Y.”
It’s just that no one knew that at the time.
So that’s the answer to Heidi’s question.
Which she never asked me.
PAD
• 
Actually, Milton Griepp passed, as well. And the question came LOOONG after I passed. No offense intended…
But I just threw it out there on the Beat, because it did strike me as an interesting dichotomy. Thanks for the answer.
At the very least, I look forward to and expect a good story in chapter #1 of this story. The follow-up chapters may or may not have a decent exectution, though JMS’s Spidey has has left me cold with none of the characters acting anything like those that I’ve been reading of over the past 30 years and Hudlin’s current take on the character has come across like he also misses the boat on the character, his powers, the supporting cast and pacing.
I am psyched about your turn with this tale and cross my fingers on the rest of the story.
Fred
Maybe part of the reasoning for the question about ‘ramifications’ is that a lot of readers are buying things purely out of the fear of being ‘left out’ on other books they read. Lord knows the big two have trained them to expect that result. Zero Hour anyone? The imprint has a schitzo relationship with ‘continuity’ and the readership does as well, as has been discussed here in the past.
Ugh…. who the heck edited my last post?!?! Sorry for the nearly undecipherable post..
I’m more than a bit crossovered out. I have to cut back on some books and they’re mostly Marvel. The Spider-Man books have been okay, but I’m tired of the “writing for the trade” trend, so I might as well wait for the trade. I am planning on getting FNS-M after The Other crossover. I’m just getting tired of seeing yet another miniseries I was buying being solicited in Previews the same month as the last issue is on sale and usually cheaper to boot. That said, I’m really enjoying House of M and especially Infinite Crisis. Crossovers aren’t bad, just a burden so close together.
I’m more than a bit crossovered out. I have to cut back on some books and they’re mostly Marvel. The Spider-Man books have been okay, but I’m tired of the “writing for the trade” trend, so I might as well wait for the trade. I am planning on getting FNS-M after The Other crossover. I’m just getting tired of seeing yet another miniseries I was buying being solicited in Previews the same month as the last issue is on sale and usually cheaper to boot. That said, I’m really enjoying House of M and especially Infinite Crisis. Crossovers aren’t bad, just a burden so close together.
I’m more than a bit crossovered out. I have to cut back on some books and they’re mostly Marvel. The Spider-Man books have been okay, but I’m tired of the “writing for the trade” trend, so I might as well wait for the trade. I am planning on getting FNS-M after The Other crossover. I’m just getting tired of seeing yet another miniseries I was buying being solicited in Previews the same month as the last issue is on sale and usually cheaper to boot. That said, I’m really enjoying House of M and especially Infinite Crisis. Crossovers aren’t bad, just a burden so close together.
I don’t know. The problem of comics as far as the almost complete absence of ramifications is the number two thing that made me all but drop comics back around 95. You begin to feel that you couldn’t invest anything in a story or set of characters because nothing mattered the second an editor or writer left and a new one came on.
Two of my favorite books back then (not to hit too close to home here) were Hulk and Aquaman. Editorial wanted a big dumb Hulk and everything I liked about the series went poof. Aquaman gets a new writer that seemingly just wanted to stay on long enough to stick one to PAD and, poof, everything that was hooking me on the series was gone. It was all rewritten into oblivion.
The death of a major character almost never means anything. The only major name death that comes to my mind for having long term ripples was Superman’s. Sure, he didn’t stay dead but his death was designed to introduce and springboard characters that are still running around now.
Hal Jordan? Dead and back again. Even some of the characters he killed are walking around again. How many villains have died and come back just because a writer liked the character and wanted to undo what someone else did so that they could use him/her?
You don’t even need superpowers to be death proof. One of the great Spidey moments for me was when Aunt May died. The moment when she knew that she was going to die and told Peter that she had always known that he was Spider-Man but that she could just never consciously let herself really know it was beautiful. I had dropped the titles prior to that but the shop owner told me that it was the issue I had to get. He and I and others that I knew thought that it was one of the all time awesome Spidey moments. After 911 I picked up Spider-Man and saw…. Aunt May alive and well. I don’t know what happened in between point A and point B but I know that it rendered the scene I liked so much meaningless.
Mike Grell took Green Arrow and started looking at the ramifications of his life and laying them out in his storytelling. I loved his run. Now everything he did is out the window.
Batman had a great chance to move on to the next generation once. Remember how many fans were buzzing about who would take the mantle next (other then the ones who stated that nothing would change by the end of it all) and how they would? Remember how many people thought it would be cool if Ðìçk finally stepped up and took on the cowl as his destiny? Remember how the whole story meant nothing a few short years later?
Comics, with the exception of a very few creator owned titles, started to remind me of the worst aspect of sitcom writing. This episode we’ll find out, to hilarious results, that Bob is afraid of pot noodles, Jane has bathroom issues and Joe used to be gay. Next episode we’ll ignore all of that and throw out new preposterous stuff that we’ll ignore the episode after that. Sorry, but sitcoms where major character traits are introduced one episode and then dropped forever more starting with the next, unless it is just fantastically written (BBC Coupling) or just designed to be that way to spoof stuff (South Park), don’t really hold me that well in the long term. Comics are the same.
Yeah, you can call them popcorn rides if you want but that still doesn’t cover their weaknesses. I’ll be a bigger fan of a series like Babylon 5 or Blake’s 7 for a much longer time then I would be of a Star Trek because things that happened had ramifications. The same goes with comics. I’ll be a fan of things like V for Vendetta, Sandman and PAD’s Hulk run for far longer then I will most other stuff. They had ramifications and you felt you could invest yourself in them. But even with these you could only say that so long as editorial or the new writer of the moment didn’t go and say, “Hey, I’ve a really great idea for V. He didn’t die and it was just another mind screw. He comes back and a massive fight ensues as he tries to reclaim the mantle of V from….”
Sorry.
Batman was the Knightfall story. Kinda left that out.
Personally, I think every issue in an ongoing series should have ramifications. The character and his/her world should be at least slightly different at the end of the issue than at the beginning. That’s why we followed serialized comics, because of the expectation of growth and change. I’m less and less enamored with TV shows where everything is exactly the same in the end than at the beginning.
That’s likely why I like PAD’s Supergirl series so much. There was a real sense of build and growth. You might not notice it in every issue, but by the end, it was unmistakable.
I think what most people think about is:
‘Is this a heavily promoted, ‘truly, nothing will ever be the same again’ scenario (which, let’s be honest is the way that many a sales-push has indicated then not delivered (or delivered for a few months until the next person takes over and retroactively changes it all)
or
‘Is this in fact just a bloody good story that we’ve put time and effort into and will by its very nature be an ongoing part of the mythology, rather than the issue that people ten years from now discuss with the reverence of Watchmen/Dark Knight’.
There is no reason, of course why the two should be mutually exclusive or whether the story should be any less good merely because it doesn’t redefine everything that comes after. ‘The Kid That collected Spider-man’ and the mutant suicide story told back in New Mutants (God, I’m so old) both hold a place in my heart but aren’t landmarks so much as beautiful punctuation points.
But fans do get tired of vacant pre-sale hyperbole or good moments of drama that then don’t have the consequences they should, so I don’t think it’s unfair if people ask if The Other is a good self-contained (within three titles)story, not earth-shatteringly defenitive but absolutely definitely worth reading, adds something to the overall Spider-man experience or….. YOU MUST NOT MISS THIS! WILL BE TALKED ABOUT FOR YEARS TO COME!
Of course, I also appreciate that not knowing quite what to expect in advance is a good way of being wonderfully impressed and pleased with the result.
John
I see several people mentioned WATCHMEN and V FOR VENDETTA. I know I shouldn’t say anything, but I read and reread both this titles several times(each time forcing myself to finish because they are so boring), and I just don’t get. Why are they so often called ‘the next great thing in comics’. I wouldn’t recommend either of these to anyone. When I think of stories I know I will enjoy reading over and over again in the years to come, these two don’t even come close to making the list.
PAD, I’d lke to come to Heidi’s defense here.
She has a line after the one you quote.
” We have no idea of THE OTHER will be any good, but we would have thought that a good, solid story would sell more in the long run than mere ramifications.
But you know, we’re not a retailer. Thoughts?”
She is not attacking you. She is wondering if retailer care more about “ramifications” than a good story.
She is mainly talking about the retailer’s question, I don’t think she has a problem with your resoponse. She is just commenting on it.
I must admit, I don’t quite understand the griping about having to buy eleven issues of THE OTHER to get the entire story (And when did it become eleven? I thought it was always twelve.). I’ve been buy “Amazing Spider-Man” for a while now, and once I heard Peter David was writing a Spider-Man book, I knew I was gonna get “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.” So the only one I’m not getting on a regular basis is “Marvel Knights SM.” Which means all I’m doing is just spending a little extra each month for four months to get the entirety that makes up “THE OTHER.” Hëll, even if if a person wasn’t buying any Spider-Man books, except Peter’s, that’s like six bucks extra a month (probably less, if you get any type of discount from your shop.)
What it comes down to is that THE OTHER intrigues me, and I’m betting it will be a good and entertaining story. And if it’s not, then you dámņ well better bet there will be “ramifications.”
JAB
I’m sorry, Ed, but frankly, it did come across as something of an attack. Which torqued me more than it should since I considered Heidi a friend. Every place in her short piece where either I or the storyline could be cast in an unflattering light, it was. Not only did she frame it as an either/or situation, quality vs. ramifications (and since I said the storyline had ramifications, therefore it couldn’t be quality) but early on she referred to my “inability to say anything about the story.” Not reluctance. Not refusal. Not unwillingness. Not lack of desire because I didn’t want to take any chance of spoiling major aspects of it. Not desire to err on the side of caution. No mention of my ten minute rant over how spoilers and too much advance notice are ruining the spontaneity of comics storytelling.
No, the word chosen was “inability.” As if I were inept. As if the story was such a mishmash that it was impossible to summarize. To quote Josiah Bartlett, it makes me sound addled. It makes me sound dotty. It makes me sound like I don’t know what’s going on.
Understand, if this was the coverage the press conference had received from, say, the Comics Journal, I would have shrugged. A casual dismissal with carefully chosen words that cast me in the least flattering light, followed by the reporter’s musings on a topic they never raised despite an opportunity to do so (in the ways that I described). That kind of treatment from TCJ, I would have figured that was normal. From Heidi, well…I wasn’t looking for a puff piece, but at the least, fair treatment would have been nice.
PAD
PAD:
When I read HM’s blog the other day I didn’t sense she cast you in a bad or negative way.
I’m confused about FNSM. I thought I read online that Reggie H. was to write the second issue. PAD, I thought you were writing the ongoing series. Is there a writer rotation or not?
And didn’t you have a Hulk joke that was supposed to appear in “Wha..huh?”
Why is it so difficult for execs, editors, and marketing to understand readers really do just want good periodical stories? It’s like they dont understand that the type of reader who doesn’t ‘get’ stories like “Tempest fugit” are the Minority. Yes, they are vocal ADD collectors, and they need constant big things happening, new things, old things dug up from the past, half naked chicks…Ugh! I feel comic readers have made a comeback, but the market hasn’t caught up.
What I want to know is: when did comic book Spider-Man become movie Spider-Man? I just finished reading Dan Slott’s Spidey/Torch mini-series, and the last issue had a conversation where it was said that his webs were now organic (which means they really should be shooting out his butt) and he now has the amazing power to make his mask stick to his face so it can’t be pulled off. This was annoying when the X-Men started wearing the movie black leather costumes for a while (along with Grant Morrison’s saying they were never super-heroes). I know they do it to attract new readers, but I think it’s pretty annoying in general.
“I see several people mentioned WATCHMEN and V FOR VENDETTA……”
“…When I think of stories I know I will enjoy reading over and over again in the years to come, these two don’t even come close to making the list.”
Different strokes for different folks. No reason to not say it. It’s what makes the entertainment market so much fun and so diverse. Plus, we all can’t help it if we just have soooo much better taste then you.
😉
If someone would be nice enough to invite me to a Marvel press conference, I promise to ask questions.
“I’m confused about FNSM. I thought I read online that Reggie H. was to write the second issue. PAD, I thought you were writing the ongoing series. Is there a writer rotation or not?”
As has been explained in every press release about “the Other” since, oh, June or so:
Peter is writing all three Spidey books in October, the first month of the crossover, including FNSM 1. Reggie Hudlin is writing the books in November, and Babylon 5 guy is writing them in December. Then in January, things go back to normal, with Peter on FNSM, Hudlin on MK, and Babylon 5 guy on Amazing.
frankly i would rather deal with PADS idea of long term ramifications then ramifications to the title itself
like the clone saga for instance
those are the kind of ramifications i can do without
Just a couple of comments.
Personally, I expect a good story when I pick up a title. Why would I buy it otherwise?
As someone else said, all stories should have some ramifications, though I would say say “most”.
What bothers me as a reader is the marketing departments (Marvel is the worst of the big 2 for this) selling a series/event by saying it has major ramifications.
Using House of M as an example (though any Marvel mega-event fits this mold), I will go out on a limb and say the only real changes will be Hawkeye will return and there will be some minor power alterations in some of the X-men characters (say Emma no longer being diamond or Beast becoming more human).
At least most DC’s ramifications last a decade before they get retconned. It took 10 years to bring ressurect Hal and 20 for a kryptonian female to waer the mantel fo Super-girl.
“I’m confused about FNSM. I thought I read online that Reggie H. was to write the second issue. PAD, I thought you were writing the ongoing series. Is there a writer rotation or not?”
As has been explained in every press release about “the Other” since, oh, June or so:
Peter is writing all three Spidey books in October, the first month of the crossover, including FNSM 1. Reggie Hudlin is writing the books in November, and Babylon 5 guy is writing them in December. Then in January, things go back to normal, with Peter on FNSM, Hudlin on MK, and Babylon 5 guy on Amazing.”
Guess I missed the press release in the same way you missed how the question was directed to PAD specifically. But thanks for answering.
Here are the PRE-ramifications of The Other for me:
I will buy issue #1 of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. I will buy PAD’s issue of Marvel Knights Spider-Man, and his issue of Amazing Spider-Man, and I will read and file those issues in my personal records as if they were Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #2 and #3. I will likely then buy FNSM #4 and #5 and on.
If I am intrigued by what I read in those first three issues, then I will consider buying Hudlin’s and Straczynski’s portions of The Other. No guarantee, but no boycotting either.
The question of ramifications is one that shouldn’t be raised. That is to say, it shouldn’t be a consideration at all. The nature of serialized storytelling means that all stories inherently have varying degrees of ramifications; the best stories usually create their own ripples, whether from internal logic or just positive fan/sales reactions.
Still, the question was raised. And so, we have a thread. Looks like this is the reward.
I think any story involving cancer and then peddling a “cure” is in very bad taste. No one is cured from cancer. I’m amazed in all the talkbacks above no one’s even mentioned this. I’m more amazed still that PAD is even writing a story like this.
Personally I’m happy just reading well written self contained stories. The whole “ramifications” thing is getting out of hand. To misquote The Invincibles “when every comic is special, no comic is”.
It’s all crap. We know that it’s all superficial. When any possible life-changing event up to and including the death of major characters and entire obliteration of the planet can be undone by the next writer to come along or at editorial whim, there is nothing you can do to significantly change a character’s life that can’t be undone by the next “event”.
Comics somehow managed to struggle along through the most successful periods of its history without “ramifications” It’s just one more way of alienating the casual reader.
Another way of alienating the casual reader is to spread a single story across different titles, so that even if they were to make the effort to pick up consecutive issues of a comic, the story would still make no sense.
“I think any story involving cancer and then peddling a “cure” is in very bad taste. No one is cured from cancer. I’m amazed in all the talkbacks above no one’s even mentioned this. I’m more amazed still that PAD is even writing a story like this.”
Well, possibly it hasn’t been mentioned because everyone except you understood that the characterizing of the story as “Spider-cancer” was entirely that of the retailer on behalf of his readers, was never described in that way by anyone at Marvel, and didn’t have anything to do with the actual story.
PAD
And by the way…”No one is cured from cancer?” Where in the world did THAT come from? People are cured from cancer all the time. I have no intention of trivializing the disease, and heaven knows it’s debilitating and terrible, but cancer is not an automatic death sentence.
PAD
Cured?
Or does it just go into remission?
It’s cured when no more cells can be detected.
If they come back, the diagnosis changes to “it was just in remission.”
PAD,
“I’m sorry, Ed, but frankly, it did come across as something of an attack. Which torqued me more than it should since I considered Heidi a friend. Every place in her short piece where either I or the storyline could be cast in an unflattering light, it was. Not only did she frame it as an either/or situation, quality vs. ramifications (and since I said the storyline had ramifications, therefore it couldn’t be quality) but early on she referred to my “inability to say anything about the story.” Not reluctance. Not refusal. Not unwillingness. Not lack of desire because I didn’t want to take any chance of spoiling major aspects of it. Not desire to err on the side of caution. No mention of my ten minute rant over how spoilers and too much advance notice are ruining the spontaneity of comics storytelling.”
I’m sure you’ll see Heidi at the next Con and air this out.
But I must say that I took her reference to your “inability” simply to mean you were not at liberty to say to much about the story.
I can understand you feeling offended over what you see as an insult. But I still think Heidi was commenting on the retailers more than you. If she made a mistake (as John Kerry would said) It was HOW she talked about it.
Hey Peter, I’m very sorry you feel this was an attack. I do consider us friends, and you have defended me here and in CBG on several occasions, which was very much appreciated. “Inability” was more a comment on the current state of promotion, which, as you rightly pointed out, has to deal with internet spoilers. I honestly wasn’t trying to slam you.
My comment was more aimed at the idea that quality is not enough, as expressed by that retailer. It was in no way meant to disparage the quality of THE OTHER.
I hope this clears up what I think was a misunderstanding.
Jerry C:
“Comics, with the exception of a very few creator owned titles, started to remind me of the worst aspect of sitcom writing. This episode we’ll find out, to hilarious results, that Bob is afraid of pot noodles, Jane has bathroom issues and Joe used to be gay. Next episode we’ll ignore all of that and throw out new preposterous stuff that we’ll ignore the episode after that.”
That’s a very good point. Comics used to be like soap operas, where — despite the ludicrous premises and spandex costumes — things happened. Gwen Stacy died. Ðìçk Grayson quit as Robin. Jean Grey sacrificed herself on the Moon. Yadda yadda yadda. You cared about the characters because you believed that their actions had long-term repercussions (well, except for the cynics, which are always around).
IMO, the reason for the unchanging nature of comics today is the shifting of audiences away from comics to other media, especially movies. The publishers don’t want their iconic characters to change too much for fear of alienating non-comics-reading audiences if they subsequently put out a movie where Batman isn’t Bruce Wayne or Spider-Man isn’t Peter Parker (my understanding is that the whole “Peter Parker is a clone and Ben Reiley is the real Spider-Man” idea got derailed because of that). Which is a stupid way to behave; it’s insulting to the audience, by assuming that unless a character’s movie incarnation isn’t exactly the same as the original comics version, the viewers will be scratching their heads for two hours going “But where’s Bruce Wayne?” instead of sitting back and just enjoying a (hopefully) well-made film.
To slightly undercut my argument here, I’ll note that Newsweek reports that the upcoming Superman Returns movie features Lois Lane with a young child, and Supes not knowing if he and she still has a relationship or not. But then, that’s probably as far as DC wants to shake up the audience; after all, Supes is still Clark Kent, and Lex Luthor is still bald.
–R.J.,
still puzzling over an Ant-Man movie…
Okay, Heidi’s apologized not once but TWICE now. Am I the only one who thinks that’s enough? Let’s feel the LOVE already!
Heidi, I can think of many better ways you could have phrased the original entry, but you could not have put your clarification here any better. I very much appreciate it.
In the words of Ari Gold, let’s hug it out.
PAD
To Jerry C. Thanks for the laugh today (I really needed one). After I wrote that comment, I figured someone would come back with a comment like yours. The first time I read those books I did wonder if there was something wrong with me/my taste if I didn’t like them. But then I remember that I like PAD’s work so I guess my taste can’t be all wrong. Maybe I’ll try reading them again.
I think with comics there is more behind it than the constant drive to attract attention. Hypes like “watch A vs. B battle it out”, “Nothing will be the same again” or big death announcements are more likely to put me off than get me excited. I don`t like tabloid newspapers and I am not a fan of tabloid comic stories either.
With this going on, another factor is added: A lot of people are involved in writing comics and that means, each time there is a change, new directions are considered. This is not just about the danger of wanting to out-perform the predecessor in attention-grabbing headlines but also, in undoing things the previous person/s who worked on the series in question did but the new writer or team doesn`t like.
That can be good or bad – which means, that can be something I like or dislike. Me personally, I dropped the title Excalibur quite a while ago and suddenly Nightcrawler popped up somewhere and I was shocked about his change of appearance. I don`t know when and why it was done, and I don`t really care about it either but I am very grateful that Nightcrawler changed back to his original appearance.
Elsewhere I keep gritting my teeth when people discuss Trek books and complain that nobody of the main characters dies AND stays dead. I have read it often enough that this would be brave, thrilling and for a change, it would really have consequences. I always hated it when characters who I enjoy or who otherwise enrich a series are thrown out for a quick, cheap shock thriller. Yes, and then people wonder how to bring them back, also because they suddenly realise that having these characters around is more beneficial.
I always found these stories much more interesting that show how a characters struggles. Let him or her suffer if necessary but what I want to see is how the hero (or villain, for that matter) deals with the aftermath and consequences. I want to see how it changes the person in question (or not), how it affects others. That is also change and to me much more interesting than a moving death, sad faces and speeches – and life goes on.
Yes, I really wish also comics would stop killing off characters and only do so if it is really beneficial for the story. Hm, I don`t have the full “House of M” mini series yet but I must admit, it is intriguing so far. This could even be one of these exceptions of the rule. I guess I will find out how big the reset button will be at the end.
I am now just assuming for this discussion that Spider-Man will indeed struggle with a life threatening disease like cancer. Of course killing him would be a consequence but it would be a very cheap way to deal with the topic. Killing someone is very easy. Writing a drama without doing that is much more challenging and interesting. Instead of complaining that the character survives after all (I am also thinking of the Trek books I mentioned) I would find it very interesting to see how a super hero deals with such an illness. Didn`t the original Captain Marvel die of cancer? It was so long ago, I am not sure. Nevertheless, revisiting that topic could be very interesting.
By the way, I think the TNG episode “Cause and Effect” was great although not much happened in it. That was the episode in which the Enterprise was stuck in a time loop.
1Ramifications, I’ll give you puny humans ramifications. Peter David and JMS and others are teaming up to do a Spider-Man story. That’s good enough for me. The top writers doing the top character, what could be better?
I mean, fine you something more. How about: Aunt May let’s one of the Averngers die so Peter will realize that there are consequences to his actions. Wait, too Batman-ish? Never mind. I’m counting down the days until the first issue hits my comic store. Make mine Marvel 4 life.
–R.J.,
still puzzling over an Ant-Man movie…
I hear that the guy behind Shawn Of The Daed wants to direct…meaning it has just jumped up to the top of the list of COMIC BOOK MOVIES I WANT TO SEE…
And yeah, it’ll be a comedy, as if, after what Dan Akroid and Garret Morris and John Belushi did to the character, there was any choice…
Hey, it still aint as bad as what Saturday Night Live and Sinbad did to Black Lightening.
“Come on…. Let me in……”
I couldn’t care less about ramifications. I just want heroes back. Real heroes. Fun heroes. I’m tired of heroes who are so cynical they kill or can’t crack a smile….I’ve dropped all DC because it’s so darn depressing. I’m glad Marvel still has some fun books. I’m glad other companies are making fun, heroic books. I am planning on getting “The Other” but I just hope to god it’s not Spider-Man killing someone….
Michael J Norton
I grew up a Marvel guy. I loved to learn everything about the characters as a kid and see how everything connected. It was like history class to read an issue of Marvel Saga, but the history was the most engaging thing I’d ever come across.
And that aspect of Marvel is just dead to me right now. There’s no effort to keep things connected there. The stories can be very good, but I just don’t have the same connection I had before. For all intensive purposes, there is no Marvel Universe as a living entity. There are maybe three or four titles out there that actually uses the MU as a strength instead of a burden (Marvel Team Up, New Thunderbolts, Cable/Deadpool. And you’ve seen hints of it in Hulk. I sort of expect X-Factor and FNSM to do the same).
I guess what I’m trying to say is that while it’d be nice for things to have ramifications right now, the only thing we can expect out of the Marvel of 2005 is good stories. Should that be a problem? Probably not. But for me it is, especially compared to how tight everything is at DC right now(which would be disasterous except for the fact they have so many good writers that this insane, overcomplicated thing is actually turning out to be brilliant and far, far more than the sum of its parts could ever be. Marvel right now is no more than the sum of its parts).
I read comics generally for creators, these days, certainly not for characters, but I’ll read something in Marvel as opposed to something in Image, all other things equal, because it’s connected to a greater whole and I know that it part of a larger history that’ll be able to draw on years of character development and be able to be drawn upon in the years to come.
Am I wrong for it? Some people would throw things at me and tell me I possess the backwards sort of thinking that limits good stories and holds back Comics as a medium. But it’s what brought me to the dance in the first place. The love of that shared history and serialized storytelling. You get to learn and follow one of the most fun and imaginative things we’ve come up with in the last 100 years or so. And I miss it at Marvel.
Sorry for the mostly unfocused rant. I’m not exactly sure where it came from.
Ramifications, huh.
That’s why I’m pretty much out of costumed superhero books (I’ve got more exceptions than I’d like to admit: Astro City, POWERS, Supreme Power, Ultimate Iron Man [just for Card’s writing]), because they just don’t matter. I’ve even avoided picking up PAD’s recent run on Hulk, because, as Willow said, “There lies madness and sweaty palms.”
For me, the harbinger of bad things to come was when the X-Men all died by going through the, uh, what was it, some Arthurian portal that was supposed to evaluate their souls. I figured, ‘I know they’ll make it through, changed somehow, but here’s a great opportunity to figure out what happens to the world without the X-Men.’ I figured at least an issue or two of aftereffects before they show up again. Nope. Then, it started getting so that the “event” books got to be more than the month-to-month titles (31 issues tie into Secret Wars II), and you had to read all 14 X-books to know what was going on. That sounds like smart marketing, but I dropped ’em all.
Even books I thought were good reads and relevant are starting to wear thin: BMB’s “Alias” became “Pulse” and is now basically the color commentary for Secret Wars and House of M. Don’t care, won’t care. Still gonna read “POWERS” though.
A sign of a good book: I pick up the first trade, and buy issues 13-19 the next week because the second trade isn’t out and I don’t want to lose any of the story. Planetary, POWERS, Y, Fallen Angel all fit into that category.
And what happens to low-volume storytelling? They find they can’t publish. Phil Foglio’s Girl Genios is now a 3-page-a-week webcomic at http://girlgeniusonline.com with a hopeful yearly trade. I hope Phil keeps making money, I know I’ll buy the trade.
Hugs indeed!
The gay community has contributed a concept to society that is appropriate to many of the posts I see here. Drama Queens.
No, not Dairy Queens, but Drama Queens.
Insisting that a miniseries or story arc have “consequences” that will affect a character irrevocably and forever? Knowing that such changes in the past have often been overturned arbitrarily when a new writer or editor comes in? Or that fans themselves often hate such changes? Drama Queen behavior.
And all of it for the sake of proving that such a series is “important enough to buy” – as if good writing and characterization weren’t enough of a reason to buy. Idiocy.
Thomas, I agree 100%, though Marvel, in particular, has fed into this mentality with its solicitations and press releases. How many “so big it will break the internet in half” pitches need to be made before it is seen by the majority as hype with little realibility?
Fred
The bottom line, for me, is that I’m really not interested in Spider-Man as written by Hudlin or Straczynski. I don’t want to buy it, I don’t want to read it.
I AM interested in Spider-Man as written by PAD, and would like to read it – except I sincerely doubt that, were I to buy the three issues PAD’s writing in the first month of the crossover, I’d get a complete story (as opposed to “The Other Part 1: Read On Or You’re Screwed”). And then FNSM would continue with issue #4, apparently “CHANGED FOREVER” by two-thirds of a story I haven’t read.
I feel that the choice being offered to me here is either reading “The Other” in its entirety, or passing up FNSM altogether due to lack of accessibility. If this isn’t the case, I’d welcome a rebuttal by PAD, but I’m precisely the kind of elitist purist bìŧçh who has no patience for Mighty Marvel Money Manipulations – if a book on my pull list takes a turn I don’t like, I drop it cold. “Loyalty” and “fandom” don’t factor into my decisions because, frankly, I don’t think either company currently earns that from me.
So, sure, I’d like to enjoy FNSM as a self-contained Peter David Spider-Man series – but if I have to choose between compromising my criteria and finding something else to read, I’ll choose the latter. If other readers like what they’re getting, more power to them. Me? There are plenty of books out there that have what I’m looking for. I’m annoyed that I won’t be able to enjoy a PAD book, but c’est la vie.
As for the issue of ramifications… let’s be realistic, people. Nothing sticks, and that’s never been more evident than in the Spider-Man books. Start with “Sins Past” and work your way backwards, you’ll see…
Ant Man!!!!
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=21198
There yah go.