I really didn’t think we’d see a bench-clearing brawl at Fenway until at least game 4, or more likely game 5. I figured, y’know, get a brawl in game 3, gives you nowhere to go drama wise…unless of course the crowd mood gets progressively uglier and by game 4 or 5–particularly if the Yankees keep winning–frustrated and berserk fans start storming the field, figuring the only way to end the rivalry is with their bare hands. You can just imagine one of the fans acting like the Inspector in “Young Frankenstein,” growling, “A riot…is an ugly thing! And I think it’s about time that ve had vun!”
I’m of two minds on Martinez. On the one hand, he sure didn’t help himself between plunking that guy and then pointing at his head (I’m not sure what he was shouting: Maybe “We all have this buzz cut, so shut up!”) On the other hand, when you’ve got Don Zimmer coming at you like a rhino, you’re hip deep in Kobayashi Maru territory. If you defend yourself, it’s, “Bullying strong young athlete lays smack down on senior citizen.” If you backpedal or run, it’s “Gutless strong young athlete runs away from senior citizen.” From watching it, it looks to me like Martinez didn’t actually throw him down. Zimmer was moving like a freight train. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Martinez grabbed his head and aimed it to the side and down, and Zimmer’s own momentum did the rest. It wasn’t a bad martial arts move, actually. But, jeez, Zimmer could have broken a hip or something at his age. On the other hand, at his age he should know better. Martinez should have known better. The whole lot of them should have known better.
I’m reminded of old Casey S. shouting “Can’t anybody here play this game?!”
PAD
• 
Well, now we know who’ll play Rhino in Spider-man 3…
That was a great game to watch. Martinez is such a sore loser, that he resorts to head hunting in the game. I just wish Darryl Strawberry was still around, he’d go after Martinez the same way he went after Armando Benitez a few years back (he chased him into the dugout, and wailed a good one). Since we beat there #1 pitcher, the BoSux got no chance now. Oh, as for me saying that Martinez will be in Pinstripes next year, to hëll with that, well hang him next to our Championship Banner.
That was a great game to watch. Martinez is such a sore loser, that he resorts to head hunting in the game.
Right, right. Because Clemens is such an icon of gentlemanly behavior that he never…oh, I don’t know…beans people or throws shattered bats at them.
Please.
PAD
So baseball has just as many hoodlums as the NFL and the NBA? I’m shocked. Shocked I say.
Its true that Clemens knocked Piazza till next week in 2000, but I don’t agree that he threw the bat at him in the World Series on purpose. Head hunting is bad in general, just ask Sosa who had his helmet destroyed early on this season, but when Martinez is basically saying on live TV “I’m gonna hit your head”, now that’s just asking for a free for all fight between both teams.
Suddenly, being a White Sox fan looks more and more civilized…
As for Martinez, he did as best as he could with Zimmer headed at him. Go Cubs!
Julio.
It’s called English. E-N-G-L-I-S-H.
Use it properly.
As for the fights – alas, I was stuck at work, so I could only watch a clip on the ‘net. But, dámņ, that was fun. 😀
When the commentators were all busy talking about who the refs might throw out of the game, I personally thought the clear frontrunner for getting tossed was… Don Zimmer. He came onto the field and tried to take a swing at somebody. You just don’t DO that.
In retrospect, if I was in Pedro’s position and I had time to think, I would just take the hit. I mean, how hard can a 72-year-old hit, anyway? But since he didn’t have time to think, I have next to no problem with how he handled it.
Peter, any opinions on reports that Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia started the fight with that groundskeeper in the visitor’s bullpen, because he was cheering for the home team while working in the visitor’s bullpen?
That was a great game to watch. Martinez is such a sore loser, that he resorts to head hunting in the game.
Right, right. Because Clemens is such an icon of gentlemanly behavior that he never…oh, I don’t know…beans people or throws shattered bats at them.
Please.
PAD
Ease up a bit, Peter. He didn’t say anything about Clemens in his post. So why drag it into your response? It’s not like that incident took place during this series or anything. Why not comment instead on the disgraceful Yankees vs. Groundskeeper Williams (Willie) dugout bout that took place at the end of the game?
-Dave O’Connell
That was a great game to watch. Martinez is such a sore loser, that he resorts to head hunting in the game.
Right, right. Because Clemens is such an icon of gentlemanly behavior that he never…oh, I don’t know…beans people or throws shattered bats at them.
Please.
PAD
Ease up a bit, Peter. He didn’t say anything about Clemens in his post. So why drag it into your response? It’s not like that incident took place during this series or anything. Why not comment instead on the disgraceful Yankees vs. Groundskeeper Williams (Willie) dugout bout that took place at the end of the game?
-Dave O’Connell
From what was said and shown, Clemens actually kept his distance when all heck broke loose, despite that he is known for a temper (remember him and Piaza?).
This was an ugly scene, and I think what Pedro did was the best thing to do. Zimmer should not have gone near him _at all._ And all Pedro did was push him down. As for Julio’s comment of:
“Oh, as for me saying that Martinez will be in Pinstripes next year, to hëll with that, well hang him next to our Championship Banner. “
the last time I checked, this was the 21st century, and lynchings are outdated. I don’t know if anyone else called you up on it, but the racist remark is VERY UNCALLED for. But that’s my two cents.
Instead, I hope the Sox win the next two games at Fenway, then come to Yankee Stadium and beat the Yanks there. Now that, I think, would be the true middle finger to the Babe’s curse. hehehe 🙂
Oh, and anyone see the Bennifer duo watching the game? So nice to see the young couple back together. Gives me hope that love these days will work out (Note the sarcasm).
This is what happens when hockey season starts; people forget what sport they’re playing.
If anyone is to blame for anything, it’s Manny Ramierez (sic). If he didn’t go to the plate “expecting” Roger to throw at him, he wouldn’t have taken exception to a pitch that was nowhere near him.
I don’t approve of what Zimmer did, but I understand it. He has a plate in his head from being beaned that ended his playing career, and is sensitive to anyone throwing around the noggin. Non-baseball fan friends of mine thought Pedro was out of line for handling Zim the way he did, but I think it was pure self-defence instinct.
I must admit that the cynical part of my nature believes that Zimmer went to the hospital on a stretcher after the game because the Yankees wanted to deflect attention from their two players who had attacked a Red Sox employee in their bullpen. After all, Zim was well enough to sit in the dugout for the entire game. He wasn’t well enough to sit up on a trip to the hospital for a check up?
But maybe I’m just cynical…
BTW, Peter, Jim Caple of ESPN agrees with you about Pedro and Zimmer:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&id=1636171
I haven’t been paying any attention to the playoffs since the Indians were knocked out of contention. But if there are going to be more games like the sound of this one, I might just start watching.
I don’t know if anyone else called you up on it, but the racist remark is VERY UNCALLED for.
Am I missing something here? I reread PAD’s comments, but I can find nothing racist. Then again, I’m not a BoSox or Yankees fan. I do think that the rain last night was a Good Thing, giving both teams a chance to cool down. Of course, if this series goes to game 7, we’ll get a rematch. By the way, calling either Pedro or Roger “losers” is ignoring the facts, though they both can be jerks at times. This time Pedro lost it, but nobody can honestly doubt that it could have just as easily been Clemens. In fact, I was expecting it to be Clemens.
The whole day was a near-total embarrassment to baseball. Nobody comes out of this looking that good, with the level of acrimony now off the charts and the noise from all sides deafening. Then add the noise from the media, the nonsense from Mayor Bloomberg about Martinez deserving to be arrested, and the sense that Bud Selig is afraid to offer the right discipline, and you have a mess. The nearly perfect postseason has been marred, to the point that some Yankee-haters are now actually rooting against Boston.
Me? A pox on both their dugouts. Martinez was a jerk. Ramirez a hothead. Zimmer an old idiot. The guys in the bullpens were bullies. The New York media is filled with biased reporters who would never give the Mets a break in the same situation, and I wnat nothing to do with them. Bloomberg (a lifelong Red Sox fan) is a shameful opportunist. I want nothing at all to do with this until we get to the Series, when the Cubs will give the AL what for!
This is a tangent, but here’s my favorite Red Sox brawl moment:
Wayyyy back in, I think, 1993 (maybe it was 1994), Aaron Sele plunked someone (I forget who), who promptly charged the mound. Sele executed this little bob-and-weave move to dodge the guy’s punch.
Then, as a friend put it, “Mo Vaughn arrived at the mound”, which pretty much snuffed things immediately (Vaughn wasn’t terribly agile, but if he actually collided with you, I bet there wasn’t much you could do afterwards for a while).
I don’t think it resulted in a bench-clearing brawl, but it was darned funny at the time.
Anyone catch the comment from the Spankees’ president about “such lawlessness would never be tolerated at Yankee stadium?”
Yeah, you just reward blatant fan interference by spoiled brats with a parade and a spot on Letterman.
We Orioles fans never forget and never forgive.
Nothing like the Spankees in the championship series to make me a Bosox fan, though.
So, to recap:
1) Martinez drilled Garcia. Bad move, Martinez. (Don’t care how frustrated you were by your pitching at that point, deliberate plonking–even from Senor Plonk–is dangerous and asinine.)
2) Garcia plowed into Walker at 2nd. Bad move, Garcia. (Don’t care how much the unwritten rules say you’re entitled to payback after being drilled, deliberate plowing is dangerous and asinine. Plus, this simply raises the tension.)
3) Martinez taunts Posada in the dugout while pointing to his head. Jáçkášš move, Pedro. (Don’t care how high the tension has gotten, telling someone you’re going to try to bean them is asinine.)
4) Clemens throws a pitch that’s clearly high but over the plate; Ramirez, fueled by the tension, overreacts and moves toward Clemens while holding his bat. Ortiz tries to restrain him. Benches clear. (Great pitch, Roger. Good move, David. Asinine move, Manny. Dangerous and asinine move, benches.)
5) Don Zimmer charges Martinez, who’s standing off to the side of the melee (as is Clemens), with hands raised; tries to connect a southpaw swat to Martinez’ head. Martinez swerves and pulls Zimmer’s head down and away; Zimmer falls, Martinez steps back. (Bad move, Zimmer. Don’t care how understandably sensitive you are about headhunting. Best possible move, Martinez–though maybe you should have taken the hit. I dunno. A 72 year old man charging Pedro is asinine and dangerous for both.)
7) Sox groundskeeper assigned to Yankee’s bullpen waves rally flag for fans, taunts Yankee players. Nelson and Garcia (perhaps extending the dangerous and asinine unwritten rules of payback?) stomp on groundskeeper in the bullpen. (Bad move, groundskeeper, no matter how jazzed you are, you’re there to do a job, not to rile the other guys up even further; if you can’t do that, don’t take that job. Much, much worse move, Nelson and Garcia, since you’ve taken his asinine behavior and added your own violent behavior to it. Facts on this still coming to light though–Nelson, at least, claims the Sox employee swung first.)
8) Clemens pitches a beautiful game and keeps his cool throughout, even among all the brawlin and bawlin.
Leaving aside the still-somewhat-murky details of 7, we’ve got, essentially, Pedro deliberately hitting Garcia because he was in a bad mood and everything going downhill from there. Garcia invokes baseball’s code duello and slams Walker, and everyone else (Martinez, Ramirez, Zimmer, Nelson) starts looking for his piece of the action.
Boys, please: play the dámņ game. You do it pretty well when you put your minds to it. If I want to watch this crap, I’ll babysit my nephews more often. And umps: throw the bums out. Immediately–no matter their star-power or age.
Oh, and looking at 8) makes me more convinced than ever that we are, in fact, looking at the End of Days.
Ease up a bit, Peter. He didn’t say anything about Clemens in his post. So why drag it into your response?
Because Clemens basically made a “I would never do that” comment afterward against Martinez, yet he is #1 on the active pitcher list for hit batters.
Not to mention the fact that the Piazza incident is quite relevant in relation to that comment from Clemens.
IMO, the DH is to blame for alot of this.
Pitchers like Clemens wouldn’t hit guys nearly as often if they had to bat every start.
Martinez, like Kerry Wood, is one of those guys that WILL pitch inside.
It’s just pathetic that so many batters hang out over the plate so pitchers can’t go inside.
(Barry Bonds with armor like a tank, anyone?)
What cracks me up is (ironically) how little Red Sox fans seem to know about fighting.
Pedro had enough time to get his hands up and on the sides of Zimmer’s head. If anyone doesn’t think that involves intent, they need to think on that again. That’s more than enough time to do a legitimate “shove him away”, which would only have taken lifting his hands to Zimmer’s chest and pushing. Pedro grabbing Zimmer by the head like that could have done damage to his neck. THAT is the difference between what Pedro did and “shoving him away”. You don’t mess with the head area unless you’re serious about doing damage, even if it’s on a subconscious level.
Whereas what cracks me up is the phrase “had time to get his hands up…” being offered as if that were a significant length of time. Try it yourself at home, kids: while standing, quickly raise your hands up to the head level of an oncoming 72 year old baseball coach. 🙂 Takes less than half a second, don’t it? Not much time for formulating a pugilistic plan, nor for much “intent” beyond the basic, primal intent of the reptilian brain: Don’t Get Hurt.
Please: Pedro’s a jáçkášš, a great pitcher, and neither a martial artist nor a trained fighter. If he’d really wanted to hurt Zim, he could have, easily. He didn’t stop him as gracefully as possible, but that’s not his job or his training–nor was it, actually, his obligation: Zim charged him. Once the initial encounter was over, Pedro stepped back and to the side, hardly evidencing the behavior of someone who intended much of anything other than “Don’t Get Hurt”. Could he have held him off some other way? Sure–one strong arm to the forehead in the time honored technique of holding off little brothers everywhere while they swing away fruitlessly (…woulda been a great visual….). Could he just have dodged more skillfully or run away? Sure–but I don’t blame him for not reacting that way. As PAD observed, he was in a no-win situation and a no-lose situation at once.
As to how little Red Sox fans in general supposedly know about fighting, well, there’s no doubt a chest-thumping response to that that doesn’t really suit me. I’ll just observe, as Norman Maclean (who knew about fighting) once did that most folks know nothing about fighting, and that most fights are over in one–sometimes two–“hits,” when the fighters feel a little pain or see a little blood and “go all sisterly with talk of brotherly love”. For most folks, technique and strategic intent have dámņ little to do with it, despite all that Hollywood and comics have done to make us think otherwise. Most actual fights look like the ones we were all in in grade school: stupid, clumsy, and short.