Catching up on my e-mail, I just got finished reading an e-mail from my editor informing me that, beginning with issue #3, “Fallen Angel” would carry a “Mature Readers” label, and I wrote back to her and asked if I can publicize this on my blog.
Then what do I find out? That it’s already been announced on Newsarama.com.
Personally I’ve never been a big fan of labels because, as the Jesus Castillo cased proved, they provide as much protection against persecution as a sieve against a rainstorm. But I do believe that retailers should be informed at the time of solicitation as to specific adult material so they can order accordingly. However, ultimately DC’s the publisher, and if their comfort level dictates it should carry a label, that’s their call to make.
Interestingly, it frees me up language wise. I can pretty much have the characters say anything I want now, something I was originally told I could do, but then told I couldn’t because the book *didn’t* carry a Mature Readers label. Nevertheless, I can’t help but feel that profanity is becoming overused in comics to the point where it’s lost its shock value. Profanity is like any other tool: It should be used at the right time to accomplish the right effect. If the story is filled with explicit language from the get-go, it loses whatever power it might have to indicate stress or anger. So although certain words may come creeping into the conversation–words like “swell” and “So’s your old man!”–they’ll be used judiciously.
PAD
• 
I agree about profanity. I try not to swear too much, because if it becomes part of my usual vocabulary, what am I supposed to yell when I smash my thumb with a hammer??
Two points here. First off, YOU should’ve gotten word before Newsarama. I find that insane.
Secondly, I agree about the profanity thing. I am a regular reader of all things Frank Miller, and this is a man who,at least in Sin City, could have them cussing a storm every panel. He has the freedom to do it. But he doesn’t. He,like you, knows that profanity has to be “right”.
I swear though I want just once,just freakin’ once, to have Superman take a surprise hit from a villian(or better yet, Batman) and say “&*$%(expletive for doggie poo) that hurt!”
I think it’d be a funny scene,given the right moment.
Col
I agree about profanity. I try not to swear too much, because if it becomes part of my usual vocabulary, what am I supposed to yell when I smash my thumb with a hammer??
Just a thought: “Blast you, bin Laden!”
PAD
You realize that once I finally get around to reading Fallen Angel (I buy a ton of comics a month, but don’t read them immediately, because I have, well, a ton of other comics to read first), that I’m going to have the Music Man humming in my head now, right?
I was told once that profanity leads to less of a vocabulary,
and I feel that the statement is very true. Your mastery of the English language is one of the high points of your story telling. I would so hate to see that change.
I don’t use much profanity these days for a couple of reasons. 1) It keeps me from having to worry about slipping and dropping the F-bomb in front of my mother, and B) like you said – effect. If I *do* use one of the famous four-letter words, people who know me know I’m serious.
Besides, it’s much more fun to make up new expressions or steal them from cartoons and cheesy 70s TV shows.
Grozit and flutzed also work when looking for profanity. 🙂
<>
I’ll only be worried if the kids start to memorize jokes from a magazine that’s at least six years away from publication.
Hmm, interesting issue. When I was at (boarding) school, I used to completely avoid swearing. On one occasion, the housemaster decided to give an impromptu lecture after taking the roll-call, and told us that he didn’t think swearing was ever justified, which I agreed with. However, I later found that this policy was causing me difficulties. Not so much teasing from other people (I was used to that), but with my acting. For instance, one week in drama class, we were all told to say the “Out, out, dámņ spot!” line from MacBeth in several different ways. I fudged it by saying “Out, out, you … you spot you!”, but I saw that sooner or later this would be a problem. I had a private chat to the housemaster later, and said “I remember what you said before, and I agree, so what should I do?” He said that he thought it was ok in that context. As a side-note, I think that attitude is significant here. Since he could tell that I was genuinely asking for help, I think he was more inclined to give ground on his previous position than he would have been if I’d said “Ok, but what if you’re in a play? Hah! Got you there!”, at which point he could have just said “You’re not forced to be in the play.”
Anyway, I do swear now in everyday speech, probably more than I should. I think that it’s useful as an extension to a wide vocabulary, but it shouldn’t be used as a crutch for a limited one. For instance, a real-life example. A few years ago, I was sitting on a bus, and I heard two people talking behind me. One said “She doesn’t fûçkìņg go to fûçkìņg clubs anymore, she just fûçkìņg stays in watching fûçkìņg TV.” The interesting thing is that this was said quite calmly, without any rancor. I can only assume that this is the mindset that Kirk referred to in Star Trek IV (“you have to swear every other word or nobody will pay attention to you”), but as PAD says, it’s going to be hard for someone like him to add emphasis by swearing.
It can be an interesting challenge to find suitable alternatives, though. In particular, I was writing a web page about the “Lucifer” comic a while back, and in my initial draft I referred to Lucifer as a bášŧárd, which I think fits. I then decided that I shouldn’t swear on that page, but I couldn’t come up with a suitable synonym (bounder? cad?). In the end, I phrased it like this: “the character has a lot of charm, and many admirable qualities, but every so often he behaves in a completely ruthless manner”, which was less concise than the initial version, but got the point across. There was a good quote from the “Lost in Space” film, although I don’t remember it exactly – something like “A boy of your intelligence shouldn’t need to swear.”
From a writing point of view, I can see why it might be accurate characterisation to have people who swear every other word. However, I find it pretty tedious to read about, which is why I abandoned “100 Bullets” after the first paperback. Mind you, I was amused by the recent issue of “Alias”, when Jessica Jones and Peter Parker (in a flashback to their schooldays) are discussing Flash Thompson. Jessica rattles off a string of obscenities (describing Flash), and Peter says “Yes, well, um, I wouldn’t phrase it quite like that…”
I find it amusing that it is ok to use “grozit” or “smeg” (Red Dwarf), even swearing in foreign languages (“merde”, as said by Picard, not to mention various Klingon vocabulary)but not the real thing in the English language. When Data used the s-word in “Generations” on British TV, that part was cut.
I find this oversensitivity in Britain silly anyway but on the other hand, my husband and me recently watched “Bad Boys II”. Even policemen shown in this movie couldn`t stop using the f-word and occasionally also other language of this kind. It very much got on our nerves, not because we are sensitive but because it was unnecessary and silly. I have seen other films like that made in the USA and sometimes I wonder, is it really true that some people over there talk like that?
Also in comics with a mature label, I prefer it to see swear words used sparingly and where they are effective.
One of the responses to the Newsarama story made me chuckle:
“So now we get bøøbìëš?”
My first thought was to check the poster’s name and see if it was Jeremy from “Barry Ween”…
I remember back when the whole “mature comics” trend really got going that the amount of gratuitous profanity and nudity was just overwhelming. It was as if the writers and artists were trying to make up for lost time.
JSM
Hopefully, this means anal sex between Fallen Angel and Black Lightning.
I was told once that profanity leads to less of a vocabulary
Actually, I believe OVERUSE of profanity indicates a limited vocabulary. But then, overuse of any word or phrases does the same. Profanity has its uses in the proper context. Substituting “shoot” for “šhìŧ” is pretty much like stifling a yell when you really need to SCREAM.
“what am I supposed to yell when I smash my thumb with a hammer??”
‘ OOOwwwww!!! ‘ works for me.
(Cut to the HERMAN gag with two monks. One is standing by a wall where he’d been trying to put up a picture, one hand holds a hammer, the other has a swollen, obviously very painful thumb. The other monk comments “Boy, you sure know how to break a vow of silence.”)
Well, considering that a lot of what I read these days is Vertigo or MAX or indie, this sounds good to me. It’s not an all-ages book, though I wonder if not being a Vertigo book will put it in a sort of limbo.
PAD is a sharp writer, folks. If he’s using profanity in a story, it’s going to be as an accent to the language, not as a substitute for creativity.
“Given the direction the series is taking, and the fact that it takes place outside the DC Universe, adding the mature readers label makes sense,” said Dan DiDio, DC’s VP – Editorial.
Fallen Angel takes place outside the DCU? Not that it takes away from the book in anyway, but I thought it was originally promoted has possibly having a connection to supergirl?
Jon Stewart had a great bit on last night’s Daily Show mocking a Gray Davis sentence, something like “I don’t give a rip.” “A rip? What does that mea– oh, he means SHÍT! ‘I don’t give a SHÍT’!” and went on that way for another couple of minutes, sending Comedy Central’s S&P department into spasms of bleeps (not a biggie since the show’s taped). Very funny bit. “For those of you at home wondering about all the bleeps… [speaking very fast] I was saying ‘šhìŧ’.” (Which of course got bleeped too…)
“what am I supposed to yell when I smash my thumb with a hammer??”
A woman who worked in my office used to say “SugarHoneyIceTea”.
Yeah, she was strange.
How about “Great Caesar’s Ghost!”?
Seriously, when I saw the article on Newsarama a few days ago, I thought to myself, “Hmm, strange PAD hasn’t posted a blog entry about it…”
But overall, I really think this is a GOOD thing for the book. I know mature readers titles tend to sell in the lower end of the charts, but FA is, quite simply, not a book that is aimed at the typical DCU superhero crowd. I know it was meant to be “in-between” DCU and Vertigo… but in almost every way, it reads like a Vertigo book (that’s good to me). So putting a “Mature Readers” label on it may well attract that Vertigo crowd. Almost like how the controversy over removing the Comics Code attracted readers to X-Force/X-Statix.
How can Fallen Angel not be in the DC Universe, since Batman was in the second issue?
–your pal, Hoy
Sometimes the substitution of words for curse words can be really strange. There is a scene in (I believe it was) Fast Times At Ridgemont High, where the schools star football player calls someone an “áššhølë”. When it was aired on TV, The word ‘eggroll’ was used instead.
Also, I was surprised to read about šhìŧ being cut from Star Trek in England, because on other shows from there I’ve seen, most recently MI-5 (and if you’re not watching it, you’re missing out), they had no problem with using the word šhìŧ on occasion.
Lastly, I agree with Frank Miller that labeling the books only make it easier for the censors to find what they’re looking for.
PAD’s ideology on the use of profanity is best summed up in this month’s issue of “Superman: Metropolis.” In the opening pages, Perry White is reading Jimmy the riot act for not giving the Planet the exclusive on the “Lena/Tech” situation. When Perry asks why he let the story slip through his fingers, Jimmy says “Because maybe it’s none of your ÐÃMN business, Perry.”
Lois, Perry and an intern stopped dead in their tracks. Jimmy Olsen, up to that point, NEVER swore. But that one “d” word, in the right place, in the right context and intonation, showed how angry and hurt Jimmy was. It conveyed more than any super-villain-caused devastation ever could.
Well, I don’t prefer comics with lots of swearing, I am a big potty mouth. I’ve tried to change to no avail. I don’t swear when I hit my finger with a hammer though, because I’m also a weakling and I tend to just pass out real quick. 🙂
FA #2 was interesting. I’m wondering about her costume. The leather straps on her arms remind me of a ritual in Judaism I’ve seen but don’t know much about. Anyone care to enlighten me? Thanks,
Shawn
1) I’m glad to hear about the “Mature Readers” label for FALLEN ANGEL. I’m in favor of labeling as a tool that can be used to protect the interests of parents, creators, and retaliers in nearly all media, and keep the crazy censorious mobs at bay. (Unless you’re in Texas, it seems….)
2) I’m confident PAD won’t abuse the freedom conveyed by the label.
3) If Dolph breaks into a rendition of “Gary, Indiana” in some near-future issue, I’ll start buying two copies a month.
4) (Forget to include last time) Friends of ours, several years ago, designated Thursday nights in their home (no children) as Profanity Night. (Thursdays were generally bad days at work for each of them.) They’d swear like longshormen from the moment they got home until they went to bed–though not at each other. They both–ahem–swore that they found their overall vocabulary improving (they pushed themselves to swear creatively), that their moods were better, and that they swore less during other days of the week. Maybe we could get an “All-Swears” issue of FA once a year? 🙂
Hmm…I’m not sure how to take the mature readers label. To be honest, I think DC should take a number of comics and publish them as “mature” books anyway. Fallen Angel being one of them. I read the first issue, didn’t particularly like the way you were going with it and promptly crossed it off my monthly reading list. It just doesn’t appeal to me, especially if as a number of people have suggested that this is supposed to be Linda.
Profanity bugs me as a writer. I hate using it in short stories and novels, but I like to add realism, and that’s how people talk. But as a screenwriter, Quentin Tarantino has shown me the danger of overuse, and with what I like to write, it’s just not appropriate, except on occasion.
In the “hammer with a thumb” example, I just tend to make a loud noise in which no words are intended or discernable.
And, to me, swearing only ever works out of context, or as sudden exclaimation. Yes, some people use it for every second word in real life, but doing that in a comic/book/TV show/movie/radio play/etc doesn’t make it “artistic,” it just makes me put it down/turn it off.
My goodness, you all said everything I wanted to say. Glad to see that i am not the only person who is less than fond of “vulgar” language, though i do admit to being a prude.
I’ve found myself using “frell” but have been thinking that it is really not any better than using the word it replaces, since it means exactly the same thing.
I’m a bit confused. I didn’t think the “mature readers” discussion had anything to do with the *language* per se, but rather the sexually suggestive nature of the language (that, at least, seemed to be the context of the Newsarama article, as I took it; it was also the context of some retailer comments at ICV2.com).
I do agree that it’s a bit inane that certain words in English have a naughty connotation while one can “invent” a replacement (or use a foreign equivalent), retaining the same meaning but without the blatant “naughtiness”, and no one will think twice about it (unless it just makes NO sense at all).
Perhaps everyone would be better off if we were all subjected to the “Adult Conspiracy”–that’s one of the best concepts I’ve read to get around anything that would be considered inappropriate for “tender ears/eyes” (anytime a comic contained a scene with suggestive dialogue, a bunch of @*!#’s could magically appear while a scene with suggestive images could simply go blank until the reader has passed it).
The “mature readers” label, though, does little except point out that it’s not for your 5 – 8 year old’s unsupervised reading–and we all know that all comics are supposed to be for kids.
Sometimes the substitution of words for curse words can be really strange. There is a scene in (I believe it was) Fast Times At Ridgemont High, where the schools star football player calls someone an “áššhølë”. When it was aired on TV, The word ‘eggroll’ was used instead.
Even stranger, I remember seeing a broadcast version of “Ghostbusters” which had an entirely different version of the “until Dickless here shut off the main power” scene. I felt like I’d fallen down the rabbit hole.
As for profanity, I think I’m agreeing with most everyone else. It’s a useful tool to have, but only when used sparingly — both in writing and in life.
TWL
(wait … does “fallen down the rabbit hole” sound like some filthy euphemism? 🙂 )
“…until Wally Wick here turned off the power to the containment grid.”
“Is this true?”
“It’s true. This man is some sort of rodent.”
(Really, would it have been that hard to just make it “brainless” instead? Sheesh…)
My favorite example of bizarre “edited-for-TV” dialogue is from the version of “Mallrats” that airs on TNT. In the segment where Brodie suggests that Rene is annoyed with him because he farted in front of her for the first time, “fart” is replaced with “vomit.” What makes it fascinating is that the scene becomes a lot more shocking with this substition…
My personal favorite: Samuel L. Jackson in the CBS version of “Die Hard With A Vengance,” substituting “melon-farmer” for another epithet with similar consonant sounds. (=
Fûçkìņg’ A.
My Anthropology teacher told me this story. She saw that her son was swearing quite often, and approached him about it.
“Son, you’ve been swearing a lot lately.”
“Sorry Mom…”
“Don’t be. English has a long proud history of swearing. But you’re overdoing it. What will you say when you really want to show emphasis?”
“Fûçk mom, I don’t know.”
That is what got me into studing linguistics.
The reason ‘šhìŧ’ was not deemed acceptable when used in Star Trek, but was perfectly acceptable when used in MI-5 (or Spooks, as it’s called in Britain) is because Star Trek is screened between 6pm and 7pm, when children are watching.
Spooks, on the other hand, is shown after 9pm, when children are tucked up in bed and cannot be defiled by the use of such language.
Mind you, I learnt more swear words between the ages of 5 and 11 on the playground of my Liverpool school than in my entire adult life.
I thought the series was supposed to be set in the DC universe? The press release indicated otherwise.
Personally, I think the Mature Readers thing should be used on stuff that obviously you wouldn’t want your pre-teen or younger reading it. I read Supreme Power #1 last week, and finishing the issue, the only thing I saw that warranted Marvel MAXing it was two things: The dog and the reaction to said dog by the “parents”. Other then that, it read like a regular PG comic book, which in retrospect I liked….JMS didnt use the MAX to laden down the issue with profanity, nudity, sex, blah blah blah…just two things(at least to me) which I’d really not be kewl with a “non-Mature” person reading.
Interesting you mention this. Just the other day I was watching Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and thinking about what happens in Order of the Phoenix. I know most of the people on this board read it, so it’s probably no spoiler to say that Harry spends almost the entire book pìššëd øff.
Anyway, in HP II, he has a lot of unfriendly run-ins with Draco Malfoy, and these continue to get more and more frequent until Harry lays him out in book V (a long time coming, quite frankly — it took Harry about three books to listen to me and slug that mincing little prìçk). The kid that plays Malfoy in the movie delivers his lines with extra venom, and while I was watching the movie, it occured to me (not for the first time, though) that Harry wouldn’t have been so pìššëd øff in book V if he had at some point before it unleashed a volley of profanity Draco’s way. Just think of it…
MALFOY: Ah, if it isn’t Potter and his pet mudblood!
HARRY: Malfoy, you šhìŧ-ášš møŧhërfûçkìņg piss çûņŧ šhìŧfûçk assdick fûçkwëášël.
*cursing in spoilertext for those of us with more delicate sensibilities*
MALFOY: …
I’m not saying it’s the most gracious solution, but it would really relieve the stress Harry’s feeling in Book V.
Just two comments…
First of all, “swell” and “so’s your old man” – well, that’s bad enough. But for heaven’s sake, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE – no jokes from “Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang!!!”
Second, what is one to say when one, for example, bangs one’s thumb with a hammer?
I have to go with the classics on this one.
AAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
Hey, if it was good enough for Charlie Brown…
Thank you for your consideration.
Eric L. Sofer
The Silver Age Fogey
x<]:-)(
Board Administrator for the Captain Comics Web Page
http://www.captaincomics.us
Re the hammer question: How about “Argh, random-fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!” (For you Pratchett fans out there…)
For all those folks who have shied away from FA because of its supposed connection to Linda Danvers, and to all those who are confused or wondering abou its status relative to the DCU:
Stop focusing on these things. You may be setting up cognitive blocks which prevent you from enjoying the book on its own merits, which may well turn out to be considerable. These issues will hash themselves out–or not–over time, but I found that I was able to enjoy the first two issues far, far more as soon as I deliberately stopped worrying about them one way or the other. (It’s the opposite of reading, say, PLANETARY, where the pleasure is enhanced by tracking the references.)
Really, trust me on this one. I swear. 🙂
The secret about Fallen Angel is that it actually takes place in the NBC Universe. Lee is actually Angie Harmon, Thomas Greymalkin was secretly George Clooney, and Dolf is Martin Crane.
The “Mature Readers” tag will simply allow PAD to include cat members from the new hit show “Quuer Eye for the Good Guy,” where fashionably dressed gay men try to teach Harvey Bullock and Rorshach how to look like a human being. 🙂
So although certain words may come creeping into the conversation–words like “swell” and “So’s your old man!”–they’ll be used judiciously.
Uh oh – that’s asking for Trouble!
Well I’m glad that you’re not one who thinks that profanity is required at all costs. To be honest, I sometimes use profanity myself too, but if there’s any that I can’t stand, it’s the F-word, which is worse than the S-word.
While we’re on the subject, I thought to tell about some very atrocious incident I once encountered involving a weirdo on another forum two years ago who said he was from Maine, who, in response to an argument I was making about violent entertainment, tried to say that the culprits who were repsonsible for the Columbine massacre were “being bullied” by other students in the school, without even presenting any evidence whatsoever to back up his claims, and in doing so, he insulted the victims of Columbine and their families.
Well anyway, later on, I wrote something about Islamic terrorism that he didn’t like, so he posted a violent and hate-filled reply in which he used even such slogans as “f—ing diarrhea” and other such disgusting obscenities. Turns out he was a PLO supporter and an Israel-basher.
To say the least, it is simply amazing as to how this hatemongering little jerk could make up excuses for violence and even neo-nazism(shudder) and then not only resort to such measures himself in language but even go so far as to support it overseas. I just can’t believe someone so moraly bankrupt has access to a computer. And this is but one of various reasons why I abhor the F-word as much as I do.
Just as bad, the forum’s original moderator turned out to be quite a hypocrite himself(he claimed to be against graphic violence in comics and movies, yet at the same time he blandly tolerated graphic violence against Jews in Israel in the form of suicide bombings courtesy of the PLO and the Hamas), who discriminated against me by pulling a sneaky trick by saying that I was sole one to blame. I subsequently chose wisely to boycott the forum. A few months later, a new moderator took over and took steps to expel the offending poster plus one or two other very vile members, one of whom was a reporter whom I later discovered got kicked out of his newspaper for offending the staff. I don’t know if it was because they found out that he was abusing a forum that didn’t belong to him, but if they did indeed fire him, they did the right thing. It should also serve as a lesson to any news reporter that tresspassing so badly could end up having dire consequences, because, as even an uncle of mine one told me, if the staffers for any of the papers where he lives had done something like what this distasteful little man had done, they’d be out of their job faster than you could say “superspeed”.
My favorite “hitting your thumb with a hammer” scene was the infamous 1930s Porky Pig cartoon, where he does it, yells “Son of a b-di-b-di-b-di… Son of a b-di-b-di-b-di… Son of a b-di-b-di-b-di… Son of a gun!!! (looks at audience) You thought I was gonna say ‘Son of a BÍTÇH’, didn’t ya?”
As for Fallen Angel cussing… If she IS Linda, it’s a little known fact, soon to be revealed in the tell all book “DC Babylon”, that she’s been using expletives since she was introduced in the late ’50s. Editors were always careful to remove the offensive language before the book saw print (“What the #^*& do you mean, secret weapon?!!”). There was also concern over some habits she got her fellow teen sidekicks into, which was why some of those early Teen Titans stories were the way they were.
E
Oh, forgot this one…
Speaking of Harry Potter, he did just call Draco’s dad a “scumbag”. Wonder if JK reaizes that’s slang for “condom”?
E