PeterDavid.net

Looks like the 200+ year "American Expiriment" is coming to a close...

Pretty sad we have people like the air-headed "President" preaching that America is the greatest country in the world (typical of a young upstart country, eh?) while helping contribute to destroying what makes the country great.

Freedom of speech and expression, nope, only if you say/express the RIGHT things...

Amazing how the country where "majority rules" is being demolished by a bunch of minority groups (not necessarily racial minorities, just ridiculously vocal groups)...

Bush's dream of a communistic America hiding under the label of a "Free America" is coming true. He had a dream....

Rob

holy civil liberties batman.

this is just nuts. and btw - if you follow the links and read the strips -

the coworker, to me, looks like Francine from Strangers In Paradise. I wonder if she'd see that book and think one of her blonde friends might be a bi-sexual assasin psycho-bitch?

I'm 100% with you Peter - Pro free speech vs anti gun still weighs on the side of this unfairly fired bastard.

We're not coming to a close, we're just hitting some bumps along the way.

It stands to reason that when you base your society on freedom, yet hand over so much power to the government, that abuses of that power will follow. Which, if left uncorrected, will tend to bring a nation down.

Thankfully, we get the opportunity every few years to correct such mistakes.

This sort of thing goes in cycles. The pre-WWI era was pretty racy...followed by the post WWII era of conservatism and stuffiness. Followed by the rampant raciness of the 60s and 70s. We're hopefully on the tail end of the current stuffy trend, and people will lighten up about ideas and words.

Oh, and I can't access Livejournal here, so I can't read the source story...anyone mind giving a sum-up?

It was my understanding he was freaking out his coworkers. In real life, Dwight Schrute would probably not be gainfully employed either.

Matt Boyd, web comic writer for "MacHall" and "Three Panel Soul" was fired from his job where he was working under a government contract. He was overheard by a fearful coworker while discussing the purchase of a rifle for paper target practice, around the same time as the VT shootings.

Three Panel Soul began a short series of comics about the events here

Some of his former coworkers saw these comics and called them in as a threat, and later Matt was visited by four police detectives at his home. The comics were called a borderline terroristic threat.

I agree with PAD, and don't see any conflict. The First Amendment is for everyone, not just people I like. The Nazis had the right to march in Skokie; This guy has the right to talk about buying a gun. Gosh, this guy's offensiveness pales in comparison. Skokie is now 30 years ago, but it's still a good baseline to use.

That's just stupid.

I'm sure there's going to be a lawsuit somewhere.

This guy's been denied the freedom of both the first and second amendments. Shameful.

"Thankfully, we get the opportunity every few years to correct such mistakes."

Yes, we saw how well that worked in 200 and 2004...

"This guy's been denied the freedom of both the first and second amendments. Shameful."

Actually, it never got to the 2nd amendment stage... he was only talking about buying a gun, not buying one at the time.

They forgot to put this footnote in the constitution: "These amendments are meaningless because we forgot to mention that employers can't take these right away"

Anyone remember the story from a few years ago where the guy got fired for talking about an episode of Seinfeld? I think he got a huge settlement. That's why I think there's going to be a lawsuit.

It's just plain insane what can get you in trouble, if not fired, in an office environment these days. A buddy of mine was overheard using the word "ricer," which, in car circles, refers to a small Asian automobile, not even knowing that in some other circles it is an ethnic slur. He was placed on probation for six months and sent to sensitivity training. Now, here's the kicker. The co-worker he was actually talking to was Japanese, knew exactly what he was talking about, and was in no way offended. The co-worker who reported him was a busybody white woman.

-Rex Hondo-

Note that this guy is the *writer* - it was someone else who drew the picture that supposedly looked like his cow-orker.

"Yes, we saw how well that worked in 200 and 2004..."

2000 doesn't count because, well, really, Bush wasn't running on a platform of "elect me and I'll get rid of that pesky habus corpsus thingamabober. Oh, and start spying on you all, just to make sure we're all safe."

2004...best not get me started, or I'll remember all the conservative folks saying 6 months after the election the voter equivilent of "the hell?"

But 2006...when voters essentially handed the government back to the democrats, was at least a sign that some sense is creeping back.

But 2006...when voters essentially handed the government back to the democrats, was at least a sign that some sense is creeping back.

Not that it's made an impact on the decider. What amazes me about him is the ability to turn everything around in his mind to that it reinforces his own view. Poll after poll has shown that the majority of people voted in to give democrats control of Congress because they want us out of Iraq ASAP. Bush then interprets the election results as such that, while admitting that people wanted a "change", what they really wanted as the surge.

Sometimes I wonder if he truly is delusional.

It's just plain insane what can get you in trouble, if not fired, in an office environment these days. A buddy of mine was overheard using the word "ricer," which, in car circles, refers to a small Asian automobile, not even knowing that in some other circles it is an ethnic slur. He was placed on probation for six months and sent to sensitivity training. Now, here's the kicker. The co-worker he was actually talking to was Japanese, knew exactly what he was talking about, and was in no way offended. The co-worker who reported him was a busybody white woman

Now that DOES bother me. If something offends me, I'll say it myself. Don't try to be offended FOR me--that's subliminal racism as well. I don't mind the support, but don't try to tell me whether I or not I should be offended. I don't tolerate Don Imus telling I shouldn't be offended; I won't tolerate you telling me I should...

Rex Hondo: Now, here's the kicker. The co-worker he was actually talking to was Japanese, knew exactly what he was talking about, and was in no way offended. The co-worker who reported him was a busybody white woman.

That doesn't suprise me at all. 99 44/100th's percent of the time the person complaining doesn't seem to be offended themselves but complains on behalf of someone else.

As if "someone else" has to be watched over and isn't capable of dealing with offense themselves.

Unfortunately, when so many states have at-will labor laws which allow employers to axe people for almost any reason (and in some cases, no reason whatsoever) these sorts of dismissals are almost impossible to contest.

A semi-similar story I heard about in 2004 involved a woman in Georgia who was whacked by her staunchly pro-Bush employer for having a Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker on her car. But again, due to at-will employment laws, the woman had few legal recourses.

I hope the at will employment laws would be mitigated by the government contract work. Whether this is actionable or not, I think it is disturbing that one could lose one's job for discussing target shooting. If anyone in power had ever seen some of the magazine covers (Life Magazine was usually the best) I used to use for target practice I would be lucky to be at large now. It really seems very few people have any regard for free speech, except when that speech is agreeable to their own biases.

The getting fired part sucks, but it's not a huge deal. Bad stuff happens. Matt Boyd, the comic writer, feels the same way, as he has stated that he came to an understanding with his former employers. So don't worry about lawsuits, the firing is pretty much settled.

The big issue is the police involvement. The fact that posting your feelings publicly about losing your job is considered "borderline terroristic" is a gigantic problem.

Another, similar case:

http://citypages.com/databank/28/1379/article15402.asp

...in the aftermath, officials at Hamline University sought to comfort their 4,000 students. David Stern, the vice president for academic and student affairs, sent a campus-wide email offering extra counseling sessions for those who needed help coping.

Scheffler had a different opinion of how the university should react. Using the email handle "Tough Guy Scheffler," Troy fired off his response: Counseling wouldn't make students feel safer, he argued. They needed protection. And the best way to provide it would be for the university to lift its recently implemented prohibition against concealed weapons.

...But after the Virginia Tech massacre, school administrators across the country were ramping up security. Flip to any cable news channel and you'd hear experts talking about warning signs that had been missed. Cho had a history of threatening behavior and stalking. And a psychological evaluation had deemed him a threat to himself.

So Hamline officials took swift action. On April 23, Scheffler received a letter informing him he'd been placed on interim suspension. To be considered for readmittance, he'd have to pay for a psychological evaluation and undergo any treatment deemed necessary, then meet with the dean of students, who would ultimately decide whether Scheffler was fit to return to the university.

The consequences were severe. Scheffler wasn't allowed to participate in a final group project in his course on Human Resources Management, which will have a big impact on his final grade. Even if he's reinstated, the suspension will go on his permanent record, which could hurt the aspiring law student.

Of course we have to consider the caveat that there could have been actual threats in the email that weren't mentioned but this just confirms my longstanding belief that the smartest thing to do in college is keep your profile low. Nod your head when the Professor says something idiotic, never assume that promises of tolerance of all views will be kept. Save your energy for the fights that matter.

Some "free country" and "greatest nation on earth", eh?

What's the alternative? At least here they are abuses. And we can call them as such.

"What's the alternative?"

Are you talking about the Matt Boyd case? In that case, the alternative is rational thought. Firing him for talking about buying a gun and joking around about it was an overreation. A police investigation because of a webcomic is a massive overreaction. The alternative is for the police to investigate real crimes.

Terrible judgment on the eavesdropping complainer. "Ricer" isn't exactly elegant, but it's several steps away from being racist. If anything, it's a CULTURAL jab. It is absolutely no different than snobs refering to rural Americans as "corn-fed."

Next: Let's burn some books that contain violent descriptions.

People are so scared that even talking about something violent is enough to provoke all those ridiculous acts.

I mean, come on, the police doesn't have something more important to do that pursuit guys that talk about guns... Shouldn't they going after the guys that actually have it and are going to used it?

Sometimes I just don't understand how some people minds work. Hm... Maybe I'm lucky I don't.

Some "free country" and "greatest nation on earth", eh?

It's still the best game in town. Besides, did you ever think that maybe things like these make the news because they're seen as stupid or over the top?

Yeah, it sucks that the dweebs making the stupid calls can screw up someone's life for a while, but that can be dealt with. You wanna do something about it yourself? Bug your local media when dumb stuff like this happens and give time and/or money to groups like the ACLU or the CBLDF. (Would e-comics and strips fall under CBLDF services?)

There's a danger, I think, in events like this that people don't perceive. It could almost be called the Cry Wolf scenario. Something bad happens, a few other people overreact to something that has only the most tenuous if any connection to the complicating incident itself, so the rest of the world treats all incidents like the second one and not reacts, possibly leading to the repeat of the original incident. I'm not saying that people shouldn't react, but that people who overreact should be shown to be overreacting. Think before reacting, don't just give in to knee-jerk reactions.

It's still the best game in town.

Here's a question: is it the best, or merely the best "superpower"? I'm fairly certain that there are other, smaller nations with more permissive laws and fewer killings per year. That they would be effortlessly squashed if they ever found themselves in a military confrontation with the U.S. isn't relevent.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with PAD on this.

If somebody says something that could be taken as a threat then I don't necessarily object to having it investigated, nor to the authorities trying to figure out whether the person who said it bears watching or whether it's just words.

I do, however, object quite strongly to action being taken against that person--preemptive action, now that I think of it, and we've all seen how well that tends to go--because of something they MIGHT do. In this case, the firing and the subsequent visit by police. I consider intimidation by police "taking action" and therefore unacceptable. Telling somebody they are a suspected terrorist these days can most definitely be classified as intimidation.

"Posted by: Jerry Chandler at May 11, 2007 07:29 PM
Some "free country" and "greatest nation on earth", eh?

It's still the best game in town."

If you want to gain a little perspective and appreciation of your country you should read this link to an Egyptian blog that had to stop posting because he was afraid he'd be arrested

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2007/04/28/done/

Today is going to be the day that I've been dreading for quite sometime now. Today is the day I walk away from this blog. Done. Finished.

There are many reasons, each would take a post to list, and I just do not have the energy to list them. As anyone who has been reading this blog for the past month, I think it is apparent that things are not the same with me. There are reasons for that:

One of the chief reasons is the fact that there has been too much heat around me lately. I no longer believe that my anonymity is kept, especially with State Secuirty agents lurking around my street and asking questions about me since that day. I ignore that, the same way I ignored all the clicking noises that my phones started to exhibit all of a sudden, or the law suit filed by Judge Mourad on my friends, and instead grew bolder and more reckless at a time where everybody else started being more cautious. It took me a while to take note of the fear that has been gripping our little blogsphere and comprehend what it really means. The prospects for improvment, to put it slightly, look pretty grim. I was the model of caution, and believing in my invincipility by managing not to get arrested for the past 2 and a half years, I've grown reckless. Stupid Monkey. Stupid!

And speaking of the state of the egyptian blogsphere, it has been pretty depressing in its own right. One has to wonder at some point the futulity of being a keyboard warrior in a country where nothing seems to matter to its people anymore. At the same time, there has been those amongst us who have loved the fame and the attention, and are now becoming the egyptian blogsphere's equivelant of Paris Hilton: They are famous for being famous, peddling the same stories and not really presenting anything of value to the debate. And then there is the fact that we are entering the "Iconogrphy" phase : We are becoming Icons. Too much Media attention, too many american organizations claiming to champion our causes while they are cashing out in donation from people gullible enough to believe them, too much hype generated by us and others, so many of us tooting our own horns and even crying wolf at times has made Icons of us. We now have young bloggers who come up to many of us "Old Guard" and tell us how they are such great fans of ours, and how we are their role models and heroes and how they are starting to blog because of our "courageous example". And there are those of us who are buying into it, taking in undertsudies to placate our big heads, hooking up with groupies to feed our egos, acting as if we are the warriors for change we are made up to be and forgetting why we started blogging to begin with. It seems that we are entering a state of transformation, and we should either 1) evolve, take the next step whatever it is, 2) stay the way we are and risk becoming carricatures of ourselves or 3) quit. Not knowing what the next step is, and needing time and space to figure it out, I chose the only other option that made sense: I quit!

So here comes my apology to those of you who read me: I am sorry. I really can't continue to do this. You guys have been the best readers anyone could hope for, altough there are some of you who made me come close to shutting down the comments section many many times. I love you all for everything you have done for me, for all of the egyptian blogsphere. When I asked for your help, you gave us more than a helping hand. You cared. You gave a damn about a bunch of egyptians who had a dream to be free and stood by us in our houres of need. For that you are my heroes, and I can not possibly thank you enough.

May the day comes when I rant once again….

Love you all,

The Sandmonkey

Here's a question: is it the best, or merely the best "superpower"?

I'm going to do the jingoistic thing here and say best game in town. As a total package, you can't get a better deal. Sure, there are things I see in other countries that make me wish we had something like whatever "it" is that's being discussed, but I have never seen a total package that stacks up to what we have.

Are you talking about the Matt Boyd case? In that case, the alternative is rational thought. Firing him for talking about buying a gun and joking around about it was an overreation. A police investigation because of a webcomic is a massive overreaction. The alternative is for the police to investigate real crimes.

No, when I asked "what's the alternative?" it was in reply to Bladestar's comment on the country. Obviously I think the Matt Boyd case is ridiculous--that's why I called it an abuse.

Jesus, Micha, I started reading your post a bit carelessly and thought you were quitting and then I kept reading about how the authorities were out to get "you" and my eyes must've looked like saucers by that point...

That's what I get for rushing...

The 'greatest nation on earth' attitude in the US comes off as a bit arrogant. But that does not mean that here is no reason for pride. There should be a blance between recognizing one's flaws and being proud of he good things. People often go to the extremes.

----------------------
"Jesus, Micha, I started reading your post a bit carelessly and thought you were quitting and then I kept reading about how the authorities were out to get "you" and my eyes must've looked like saucers by that point...""

I, like you, should be appreciative of the fact that I don't live in a place where there's a danger like that.

Jesus, Micha, I started reading your post a bit carelessly...

Yeah, did the same thing myself.

The 'greatest nation on earth' attitude in the US comes off as a bit arrogant.

I'm not saying other countries suck or anything, I'm just pro-U.S.A. If I wasn't, then I would have left and gone on to whatever country I thought had a better deal a long time ago. It's like being pro-Virginia. Best State to live in.

Are there things I don't like? Yeah. Are there things I think could use work? Yeah. Are there things that other countries do better then us? Yeah. But my feeling is that the overall freedoms and the overall day-in-and-day-out kind of stuff in America is #1. And there's no way anyone who has read my posts here can think that I'm going to slag other countries just because or that I don't think that America needs work.

Yeah, I'm with Jerry. Of course, it could just be that, having been born here, I just think it's the best because moving would be far too much of a hassle. We're thinking of buying the house we've been renting just so we won't feel the pressure to actually unpack all our crap.

There are other countries I think I could be very happy in. like Australia, which has the added benefit of also making it easy to remember which continent you are on.

My arachnophobic wife, however, informs me that if I were to make that move it would be without her. Damn the Discovery Channel! But once again, the good old U.S. of A wins out with it's purple mountains majesty and lack of Funnel Web spiders.

PAD,

Thank you for once again linking us to another reason why I have absolutely no faith in the human race.

People are an infestation.

Posted by Mauricio

Next: Let's burn some books that contain violent descriptions

How about giving movies "R" ratings because they portray smoking as something other than Bad?

(Think of JJJ's seegar...)

Smoke in Movies -- Get an "R"

In a rare alteration of its movie ratings system, the MPAA said on Thursday that the panel that assesses Hollywood movies will begin considering "depictions that glamorize smoking or movies that feature pervasive smoking outside of a historic or other mitigating context."

Until now, the subjects that movie raters have primarily considered are violence, language, nudity, and drugs.

In a statement, MPAA CEO Dan Glickman said, "There is broad awareness of smoking as a unique public health concern due to nicotine's highly addictive nature, and no parent wants their child to take up the habit. ... The appropriate response of the rating system is to give more information to parents on this issue."

>Thankfully, we get the opportunity every few years to correct such mistakes.

And you really believe that, if the Democrats get elected, they'll repeal the Patriot Act? Yah, that'll happen. Sure ...

I too, thought Micha was the one calling it quits, until I clicked on the link and saw that the text there was what he posted. I would recommend a line of dots or formatting the quoted text. Then again, posting someone else's writing in its entirety could be copyright infringement. The link was enough, IMO.

Unfortunately, there are very few details in the stories linked to, but based on what's there:

Whoever did the firing seems to be an idiot, or maybe a coward, or some sort of ass-covering douchebag. The firing, as described, seems very, very stupid.

However:

I don't see how it's a First Amendment issue. You have the right to say what you want; but others have the right to alter their associations with you based on what you say. If your dentist goes all Mel Gibson while giving you a cleaning, you're not violating his rights by finding another dentist. Although Matt was working as a government contractor, it doesn't seem his firing was mandated by any government law or policy, rather, it was just a bureaucrat doing something stupid.

The First Amendment keeps the government from telling you what you can or cannot say. Other people can react in whatever lawful way they want to what you say.

And as for the police investigation; again, there are very few details. If they got a call from his coworker, who is presumably an asshole, saying he made a "borderline terroristic threat" (the article doesn't say who said that.) and went to his house and talked to him, that doesn't seem like overdoing it. I assume it would have been mentioned had they done more. You don't want the police to just ignore things, you want a reasonable investigation. Again, there is a lack of info, and anythng other than a polite inquiry could be wrong. But I don't like to assume either way...

Posted by: Jerry Chandler at May 11, 2007 08:08 PM

I'm going to do the jingoistic thing here and say best game in town.

All right. I'd rank it higher if it had things like universal health care, if the estate tax were back, there weren't a risk of being arrested for possession of marijuana and if more states followed Nevada's example and legalized prostitution...of course I *would* say all that, since I'm all about getting high and laid and intentionally injuring myself without having to worry about financial repercussions and mercilessly taunting people who inherited a paltry million dollars instead of ten million (or whatever) and are upset about it. (Just kidding, in case anybody was genuinely concerned about me there.) More seriously, though, the homophobia problem is worse than I thought.

Now I'm certainly not saying that the country, even after a makeover by Dubya, is hell on earth. I recently found out that in India, which I assumed had reasonable laws, homosexuality is actually a crime punishable by jail time. And that's frickin' INDIA, not some dictatorship where people have gotta shut down their blogs for fear of being arrested. There are many, many, many worse places to live than the States.

But to steal somebody else's line, "there is nothing more pessimistic than saying that America can't do better."

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at May 11, 2007 08:33 PM

Jesus, Micha, I started reading your post a bit carelessly and thought you were quitting and then I kept reading about how the authorities were out to get "you" and my eyes must've looked like saucers by that point...

I did too and then I realized from the content that it was Sandmonkey. Cause I know that Israeli law enforcement isn't gonna do crap like what's described there.

Posted by: Micha at May 11, 2007 09:01 PM

I, like you, should be appreciative of the fact that I don't live in a place where there's a danger like that.

Certainly. However, there seem to be more than enough other dangers to take the place of that particular danger. Which, I say using my special gift for understatement, sucks.

The 'greatest nation on earth' attitude in the US comes off as a bit arrogant.

It really does, and I say that one of this blog's two token Canadians (the other being StarWolf, I think).

Posted by: Jerry Chandler at May 11, 2007 09:43 PM

I'm not saying other countries suck or anything, I'm just pro-U.S.A.

I realize that you don't intend to insult other countries, but here's the thing. When you say "we are the greatest country in the world" the implication is that the best any other country can hope for is second place, second to you guys. Whenever somebody states he is the very best, he is saying that he is better than everybody else, and whenever anybody says "I'm better than everybody else," everybody else gets irritated. Imagine if there were a detective in your workplace who said, repeatedly, that he was the BEST detective there. Maybe his record would back it up...but even so, wouldn't his continued boasting cause everybody else to dislike him?

Bottom line: by all means, be a good country. Hell, maybe even the best country. But the continually reminding everybody about how great you are...not so much. You never hear Steve Nash talking about what a great player he is because A) he's got more class than that and B) if you're really good, you won't need to tell people because they will realize it on their own.

1// Anyone remember the story from a few years ago where the guy got fired for talking about an episode of Seinfeld? I think he got a huge settlement. That's why I think there's going to be a lawsuit. //

Yes, the woman got offended because because her boss was recounting the episode and the main joke of the Seinfeild episode revolved around a female body part, (if you've seen it you know the one I'm talking about). She lost big time and the media had a field day with it. (and IMO she also set the women's movement back about 3 decades in the process, but that's just me).

However that doesn't automatically mean this case, (if the guy decides to sue), will turn out with simular results. For one thing Juries are always a crapshoot, these 12 people might think the guy was railroaded, while a different 12 people might think the guy was creepy and the company did the right thing. Until it goes to trial you can't tell.

Also, for better or worst, the opinion of the public on such things is entirly different. With the Sienfield case the public seemed to be really tired of sexual harrassment lawsuits that seems to be based on nothing more then some poor slub telling a off color joke, (not what sexual harrassment laws were supposed to protect against). So the time was ripe for some backlash on such things, from judges, juries, the media and the public in general.

By comparason since 911 we've been living in an increasing paranoid society where an alarming number of people have accepted that on certain topics "you should watch what you say". Where we're told to be viliant and "report suspious activity", given that sort of undercurrent I can see 12 people plus a judge going "he got what he deserved".

"Greatest Nation" or not, it's one that's increasing populated by heavy handed, paranoid cowards.

There was a time when being an American required a certain amount of courage. Think of people like Martin Luther King and Susan B. Anthony. If anything, courage is now more of a liability. Far better to "watch what you say" and "keep your head down".

I appreciate the freedoms I have. It's the folks who got this guy fired who don't.

"Posted by: Bill Mulligan at May 11, 2007 08:33 PM

Jesus, Micha, I started reading your post a bit carelessly and thought you were quitting and then I kept reading about how the authorities were out to get "you" and my eyes must've looked like saucers by that point...

I did too and then I realized from the content that it was Sandmonkey."

I'm sorry about that. I put the link and the explanation first to make it clear it wasn't me. But I guess I should have been more careful.

I felt bad for Sandmonkey and wanted to publicize his situation.

I don't think there's any copyright concern.

--------------

"I, like you, should be appreciative of the fact that I don't live in a place where there's a danger like that."

"Certainly. However, there seem to be more than enough other dangers to take the place of that particular danger. Which, I say using my special gift for understatement, sucks."

Not nearly as much as you think. Our everyday life is similar to yours with regard to freedom, security and leisure.

-----------------

"I'm not saying other countries suck or anything, I'm just pro-U.S.A. If I wasn't, then I would have left and gone on to whatever country I thought had a better deal a long time ago."

It is necessary to distinguish between objective and subjective factors. I think if you're not poor than then you can enjoy a good quality of life in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, most Western European countries, and maybe even parts of South America. But the small everyday cultural differences -- living in a culture and language you're not used to, small everyday things -- will be the hard part.

I'm not placing Israel on that list because of our problems. But I believe if any of you were to visit Israel you would have more difficulty with everyday things, the attitude of people, not having as many channels on your TV and stuff like that, than with our more publicized problems. I've heard that some Europeans find Israel appealing because of the different, more casual, attitude of the people here.

In any case, the US is certainly a very good place to live and has much to be proud of. so are other countries. It just that sometimes this makes people (in any country) adopt an arrogant attitude.

I realize that you don't intend to insult other countries, but here's the thing. When you say "we are the greatest country in the world" the implication is that the best any other country can hope for is second place, second to you guys.

Well, you should also realize that everybody's got opinions on a subject like that. It's my opinion that I'm living in the best country there is. Note that it's stated as an opinion and not stated as an inarguable fact that I feel no one can say anthing differently about.

I have a friend who's English. He moved here because he feels that way as well. His brother still lives in The Isle of Man because he feels that England is the greatest country in the world. I've met and like my friend's brother and we never argue over that point. He believes he's living in the best country in the world while I believe I am. You should believe the same of your country as well or you should really think about finding a new place to hang your hat. And you should never think twice about saying that you feel that your country is, in your opinion, the best in the worl.

I expect more of the US. It can't be the "best" because it refuses to live up to that billing.

It may be "better than the alternatives", but best is a term reserved for, well, an unattainable level.

"I love my country" is fine, and legitimate.

"My country is the best" is just chest pounding

I expect more of the US. It can't be the "best" because it refuses to live up to that billing.

Under the statement that started this...

"Here's a question: is it the best, or merely the best "superpower"?"

... the answer would be best. i actually started this by just saying to someone else, in ref to a sarky remark of theirs, that it (living in the U.S.) was still the best game in town. I got asked to add a bit into it. I did.

Saying that something can't be said to be the best because it's not living up to its billing or potential doesn't really hold water. We've had lots of Super Bowl winners that weren't living up to their billing the years that they won. They were still the best team in the game that year.

And I doubt that you would tell someone that your favorite restaurant, the one you personally thought was the best in town, wasn't really the best in town because its, say, "authentic Italian" cuisine didn't quite live up to being completely authentic. What, you would say that you felt it wasn't the best restaurant in town, it was just better then every other restaurant in town? That would still translate to you saying that it's the best. Same here.

"I love my country" is fine, and legitimate.
"My country is the best" is just chest pounding.

Well, I think that saying, "I love my country and I think it's the best" is just fine and dandy and 100% legitimate. I think it's fine when I say it or when it's said by someone who is English, Irish, Scottish, Australian, German, Israeli, Japanese, Chinese, African, etc... If you love your country and you think it's the best in the world, then say so.

This always gets me. People can claim that they've got the best blank in the world and never a massive peep comes from it. They can claim the best band, music, food, cars, sports team, language, laws etc.. Well, I think that America is, overall, the best game in town. It's why I still live here after 36 years. And what do you expect me to say in answer to questions about that? What, you think it sounds right for someone to say that they love their country, they want to stay in their country and live there for the rest of their life because they feel it's the 4th best country in the world?

Michi speaks highly of his homeland. More power to him. Several Canucks here praise their country's strong p[oints. Good for them. My buddy's brother & his wife think that England (just as the P.M. said in his address the other day) is the greatest nation on the face of this Earth. Two thumbs up. I think America is the best.

That's hardly being arrogant or chest pounding. I'm not putting anyone else down or doing the Fox News/Conservative Talk Radio screed of claiming that everybody else would be dead, gone, hungry or speaking German without The U.S. of A. I've even, on this very blog, pointed out before that I think that the history taught in our schools is a bit full of crap when it comes to how much the U.S. saved everybody else under the sun.

I like lots of things in lots of other countries. I think that there are some things that other countries do better then the U.S. and have a few things that I wish we had. But I still think that, for me, in my personal opinion, America is the best game in town. Others think and say differently. Fine, good for them. It's not being arrogant or chest pounding when they say it about their countries either.

"What, you think it sounds right for someone to say that they love their country, they want to stay in their country and live there for the rest of their life because they feel it's the 4th best country in the world?"

It does sound right. People don't live where they live because they opened a map and checked every country. They live in the place that's most right for them given their own preferences at a given moment.

I doubt Israel is the 4th or even 10th best country in the world, but it is the right country for me to live in despite all of the advantages of the US. I have an American passport, but I choose to live in Israel.

To say that your country is the best in the world is a statement of fact which me be true or false (assuming you could measure things like that).

To say that you love your country or that your country is best for you are subjective feelings. It goes beyond measuring the stats of a country.

To say that your country is the best in the world is a statement of fact which me be true or false (assuming you could measure things like that).

Is U2 the best band in the world? Does Texas make the best chili in the world? Does South Carolina make the best barbeque in the world? Does England produce the best actors in the world? Do France and Italy create the best cuisine in the world and train the best chefs? Hell, I'll often state point blank that Motorhead and Rammstein are the two best bands on Earth.

All those things and more get said all the time just about everywhere by just about everyone. Some of that can even be "backed" by some study or another, but none of it is is anything other then opinion. Well, maybe the South Carolina barbeque thing is indisputable fact...

Thing is, nobody goes off their hinges whenever any of the above, and more like it, is said. But God help you if you say that you think, in your personal opinion, that you live in the best country in the world and that it happens to be America.

And you didn't read what I wrote. I've stressed the fact that it's just my opinion. I have not once stated that it is statement of 100% fact that no other person my lay claim to when discussing their homeland or country. I've done just the opposite actually.

I mean... Geez...

I could see where some people here would take offense to a Hannity, Coulter, Liddy or Limbaugh saying America is #1 because it's usually stated as an indisputable fact handed down from God himself and followed with digs at "Old Europe" or some other country that's told Bush that he's full of it. Fine. People get P.O.ed at the overall statement and that's completely understandable.

But I'm not doing anything like that. All I said was that it was my opinion, for me, myself and I alone, that I live in the best country on Earth. I've stated that it's my opinion that it's the best to me and for me while taking care not to do the conservative radio jerk thing and slag on other countries. I've also said that I'm quite happy with others making the same claim about their country. I've pointed out that there are some things that other countries do better then the U.S. and that my country is far from perfect. I've even defended other countries, sometimes on this blog, when some far right a$$h@!& attacks them just because they have a population or leaders that wouldn't just fall in line behind our leaders (like, say, Bush) or when they started the b.s. screed about how the whole world would be under evil's rule if it hadn't been for the great and glorious American Hero Empire. Somehow, this is bad of me and I'm being arrogant and just engaging in chest thumping?

Micha, if it is the right country for you to live in, the way I see things, then it is the best country for you. If Israel gives you what you need and what you want moreso then any other country, then it's the best country for you. America gives me more of the freedoms, rights, responsibilities and opportunities then I feel that I can get anywhere else in the world. That makes it the best country for me to be in and, in my eyes, the best country in the world. But, again, I'm only saying that as an opinion. But I am saying it as my opinion. Everyone else is welcome to theirs.

Jerry, there's really no argument between us. I think it would be more accurate to say that the statement "america is the greatest country in the world," reflects your attitude about the US, rather than opinion, just as a similar statement about a band or a team or a comic would. But this is just semantics. I completely understand the distinction between what you are saying and your attitude, and he attitude of people like Hannity. You're the sane one. But you know as well as I do that America has a bad reputation for arrogance, for thinking it is better than everybody else, and that this is because of all the people who are not as sensible as you with their attitude toward their country. If I feel a little annoyed when somebody says that America is the greatest nation on earth it is because I think -- either correctly or incorrectly -- that it reflects a certain arrogance by the speakers. In your case I know it does not and never suspected that it did, so there's no problem.

There's also a difference in attitude between Americans and people from other countries like Israel. The people in the US know they live in a country that casts a long shadow. This sometimes leads to arrogance, but not in your case. Israelis know they do not leave in the Greatest country by far. In fact they tend to be very critical of the country. But they (or some of them [us]) choose to live there despite of that. So there is a distinction between the right country and the best country.

I suppose it's like that with most other countries that are not the US. Sometimes people in these countries try to emigrate to the US because they want part of that greatness, but others choose to remain, even in places that are certainly not the best anything.

In any case, I understand where you're coming from and I have no arrgument with you. I'm just trying to convay my own point of view as a non-american.

Ok, fine. As long as we're cool.

My understanding was that Kazakhstan was the greatest country in the world, and that all the other countries are run by little girls.

Ever hear of Roshomon? It all depends on perspective.

I once worked with a guy on the overnight shift, a fairly competent TV engineer. One night during a dull period he said, "Wanna see my gun?" He pulled open his coat to reveal a holster and a weapon.

Now, at the time our TV station was literally in the ghetto, and it might seem possible that a pistol would be self-defense. But it wasn't approved by management. Also, the guy had a voice and a personality that resembled Peter Lorre if he'd been born in the deep South. And at a Christmas dinner he occupied my date with a discussion of the efficiency of various grains of gunpowder in the bullet loads he made.

For a while, management allowed him to carry a can of Mace instead - mind you, a police-sized can, also in a shoulder holster - but in the end they fired him. Everyone was afraid of him.

Maybe I was being sensitive. Maybe my own history of being subject to violence affected my viewpoint. But although I didn't say or do anything against him (it was other co-workers who were bothered and reported it) I was scared of him. Around him I felt like he was a pit bull for whom an insect sting might make him flip and take out my throat.

And I would have felt that way if he was only drawing pictures of guns and discussing exactly how many pieces of a human skull it would create. Or the gorehounds I run across in fandom who enthusiastically talk about the same gory stuff.

"Greatest" is relative, and almost always used with vague criteria. Is it "greatest" because of one thing? All things? Do we measure it like NASCAR, which allows for ranking 2nd, 5th, 10th, in individual events but can 'win' by an aggregate total?

An argument based on unquantifiable superlatives is usually pointless.

I have a friend who's English. He moved here because he feels that way as well. His brother still lives in The Isle of Man because he feels that England is the greatest country in the world.

That makes very little sense. The Isle of Man is the Isle of Man. England is England. Both parts of the UK, but what you've written there is akin to saying 'And his brother still lives in Rhode Island because he feels that Massachusetts is the greatest state in the Union'.

Well, he thinks of himself as English. Take it up with him sometime.

Today at work, I overheard a pair of WoW players discussing the accomplishment of some task or other. They were talking at the time about the best weapon to kill the boss.

I can only imagine what the woman in the original story would have made of that conversation...

Remembering some people at work having lunch time UNREAL TOURNAMENT matches over the corporate network, I can't help wonder how some of the loons running around nowadays would react to hearing - from the next cubicle - a shrill [game character] voice shouting DIE, B*TCH!!! (or other invectives) followed by explosions and screams of pain. Oh, wait, I know, the players would probably all be in jail now.

(They've since switched to a WWII simulation and use headphones.)