PeterDavid.net

But what if the cavemen and the T-rex teamed up to fight the astronauts and turkeys? Then what?

Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess...

I know what you mean. Aaron Sorkin touched on the subject in one of his West Wing episodes, where Bartlett lamented people's sometimes preference for simple plain-spokenness over informed intellegent understanding. One of those moments where I nodded in familiarity and acknowledgement at the TV.

But in other (perhaps more generous) moments, I sense that it's not knowledge that some people are hostile to, but rather knowledge without promise of practical application.

Not that that paints a particularly rosier picture of the culture. But if you believe that, say, science is about two things: (1) helping us know things and (2) helping us do things, and if people are increasingly focused on the second aspect as being more important, well, I can sorta get where that feeling comes from.

Of course, Jennings' knowledge did allow him to do something--to earn a lot of money. But that's not the sort of disease-curing, technology-improving, human-condition-improving application some folks prefer.

Eh. Food for thought, as always...

Not that I wouldn't pay big money to see a T-Rex fight some tom turkeys, Peter, but the idea that eating a turkey meal can you sleepy is an urban myth.

On the other hand, the page I've linked to does admit: "Tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect." So possibly one thousand turkeys might have an effect on the King of Dinosaurs; I don't know enough of the size and mass of T-Rex to calculate whether ingesting one thousand of 'em could affect him. (Keep in mind he'd probably tramble several hundred of that thousand into flat turkey pancakes).

Doncha hate it when someone comes along after you make a funny analogy and applies real world logic to it?

T-Rex v. Turkeys? Not enough info.

Do the turkeys have bird flu?

Bully:

But tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect. That lazy, lethargic feeling so many are overcome by at the conclusion of a festive season meal is most likely due to the combination of drinking alcohol and overeating a carbohydrate-rich repast, as well as some other factors

Hmmm... well considering before Thanksgiving dinner we usually don't eat to make room (empty stomach) and the fact that my family doesn't drink alcohol on that holiday leads me to believe that it's either the tryptophan or it's one HELL of a placebo. ;)

"Not that I wouldn't pay big money to see a T-Rex fight some tom turkeys, Peter, but the idea that eating a turkey meal can you sleepy is an urban myth.

On the other hand, the page I've linked to does admit: "Tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect.""

Yes, I know, I read the wikipedia.com entry when I was double checking the spelling of "tryptophan." But I reasoned as you did: That while the amount taken in during a holiday feast might be too small, a hundred, two hundred turkeys...that's got to start adding up, even for a T-Rex.

PAD

Caveman vs. Astronauts...

Didn't William the Bloody and Angelus have this "discussion" in season 5?

Classic.

Regards:
Warren S. Jones III

"Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing."

In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents.

What are the most popular entertainments today?

NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities.

A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?

In Ohio, a family can expect to spend over 40% of its income on a child's college education. Some students can get scholarships, but what are the rest supposed to do? With the Middle Class shrinking in size, there are more families that cannot afford to send their kids to college. Pell Grants have been cut in number.

With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class.

The Neo-Fascist Conservatives are leading the way to shrinking the Middle Class, breaking the Unions, lowering wages for all workers, and pretty much just making sure that there will plenty of unthinking drones to work at McDonalds or Wal-Mart so that corporate profits will continue to grow.

And by the way, did anyone notice that the price of gasoline finally came down just as the election campaigns started? They want the common man to forget his anger before election day.

It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country.

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

RJM, Earth turkeys cannot fly. Kryptonian turkeys, however, can fly if they are on a planet with a yellow sun such as Earth. They also have super-strength, invulnerability, x-ray and heat vision, super-strong and super-cold breath, and are just all around bad-ass. Hunt them at your own risk.

Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.

My solution? Have Angelina Jolie do a bunch of READ! and Knowledge is Good PSAs dressed as a hot librarian/professor.

... considering turkeys are still around and T-Rex is long gone extinct... Haven't the turkeys already won?

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

I loved that episode.

However, we have to decide whether the T-Rex is fighting wild or domestic turkeys. Wild turkeys actually can fly. Domesticated ones, however, have been bred to grow breats so heavy that they can't fly.

It was wild turkeys, while the T-Rex is gobbling up some of the turkeys, others could fly out of his reach, regroup and then launch an aerial assault. And, if we assume that the T-Rex is starting the fight on an empty stomach, the tryptophan will add up after he swallows a few hundred of them.

My money is on the turkeys. Numerous will prevail in the end.

BTW, forget Angelina Jolie. I can't look at her without thinking that she touched Billy Bob Thornton.

Now, Erica Durance as a naughty librarian. That would get anyone red-blood American boy to read. And for the girls, I guess we can do posters with Justin Timberlake or some other boy band "face" if must.

Heck, if all you want is the Giant Rat of Sumatra...

I'd suggest you notice some of the posters at the ALA's (American Library Association)gift shop at http://www.alastore.ala.org/. Best they do for the fanboys are Keira Knightly,
Tara Dakides, Julia Stiles? And there's Neil Gaiman and Ray Bradbury. Why aren't you on one of the author posters, PD?

Peter, how can you say that Bush is intellectually stunted? Didn't you watch that interview on NBC Nightly News where he revealed to Brian Williams that he just read 'Three Shakespeares'?

As a journalist and an interviewer, am I the only one who was disappointed that Brian Williams didn't follow up that statement asking for a favorite quote, scene, character or whatever, that would made it obvious that Bush has probably never read anything by Shakespeare, let alone be able to spell his name? I would have paid good money to see that.

Uhm... okay, what I meant to say is that Earth turkeys cannot fly through space like Kryptonian turkeys can (I don't know if Superman can fly through space unaided these days, but the Kryptonian turkeys I'm talking about are pre-Crisis).

I mean, you people don't actually think I was ignorant about something, do you???

(Rhetorical question, no need to answer. Move along, move along, nothing to see here...)

"Peter, how can you say that Bush is intellectually stunted? Didn't you watch that interview on NBC Nightly News where he revealed to Brian Williams that he just read 'Three Shakespeares'?"

No,no, Bush said that he'd just listened to "Trip Shakespeare".

Responding to PAD and then Alan Coil:
"Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing."
It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree. Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate. Democrats have been trying the 'republican candidate is stupid' card for so long, the majority of swing voters just aren't buying the hype anymore.

"In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents."
Is this the same Bill Clinton that thought that the most watched man in the world could get away with an affair with an intern and then lie about it? Is it the same one that claims he tried pot but didn't inhale? The problem is that many democrats consider themselves smarter than anyone else..thus everyone else is stupid.

"What are the most popular entertainments today?
NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities."
As opposed to watching baseball, football, or pretty much anything on TV, or listening to pop music or rap? People generally want their entertainment to entertain them! After a long day at work, the last thing most folks want is to have to think more.

"A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?"
Anything using USA Today as a source defeats any arguement about intelligence. USA Today...the newspaper for people that thing broadcast news is too complex.

"In Ohio, a family can expect to spend over 40% of its income on a child's college education. Some students can get scholarships, but what are the rest supposed to do? With the Middle Class shrinking in size, there are more families that cannot afford to send their kids to college. Pell Grants have been cut in number."
The government already pays for 12 years of education for kids. And not every kid needs to go to college. There are technical schools that cost less and actually provide a better education. Plumbers and welders actually make good money and most don't have a 4 year degree.

"With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class."
And why are GM and Ford needing to do this? Could it have something to do with the agreement in the past that would provide full pensions to retired people? Basic math. Joe the steering wheel attacher retires and receives full pay and benefits. GM then needs to hire Bill to do the job. It now costs the company 2x (or just a little less because we can assume that Bill isn't making as much as Joe was) to have someone attach steering wheels.

"The Neo-Fascist Conservatives are leading the way to shrinking the Middle Class, breaking the Unions, lowering wages for all workers, and pretty much just making sure that there will plenty of unthinking drones to work at McDonalds or Wal-Mart so that corporate profits will continue to grow."
Ooooh. Name calling. That's the way to present an arguement. And just imagine...a company that wants to make a profit! Who would have thought that would ever happen?

I suppose you don't find it somewhat facist for democrats to threaten ABC over a movie? Let's see. Leaders of the government threating the broadcast liscense of a network because the govt. officials don't like the topic. Censorship? What about the fact that ABC doesn't have a broadcast liscense, those are held by individual stations, not the network. Would this threat fall under lack of intelligence?

"And by the way, did anyone notice that the price of gasoline finally came down just as the election campaigns started? They want the common man to forget his anger before election day."
Someone forgets that gasoline prices always come down after the summer driving season. Plus, the high prices earlier had people driving less and increased the supply. More supply, lower prices.

"It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country."
Intelligence and education are not interchangable terms either. Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree. The plumber that will come over to fix your waterheater and charges $60 per hour probably doesn't have a college degree. Heck, he might not even have a high school degree. There is currently and overabundance of lawyers in the country, but law schools are having to turn away admissions. How intelligent is it to be trying to do what so many others are doing?

Jeff, I have to agree with you that it wasn't right for certain politicians to threaten ABC with prior restraint regarding the 9/11 mini-series. It's important to point out inaccuracies and hold them accountable if they're not addressed, but it's not right to threaten them ahead of the fact.

And much as it pains me, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between lower gas prices and the upcoming elections. Having spent endless hours listening to analysts explain why gas prices were driven above three bucks a gallon over the past year, I'm no longer convinced that our Republican-controlled government can make a few phone calls and gas prices drop overnight. If so, there were certainly a couple of times over the last several months where it would have served their purposes to do it then.

But I'm afraid I can't agree with you that just because Bush has a graduate degree, he's not, well, intellectually challenged. I'm sure lots of my fellow high school and college grads knew people who managed to get through school by taking classes that weren't all that challenging. If you told me that Bush graduated with a 4.0 average, I might cut you some slack on this one, but just the fact that he came out with a couple of degrees holds no weight for me, particularly when you add in the potential for political pressure that can be brought on educators to make sure that certain students get a pass. I won't argue whether Bush is smarter than Kerry, but I'm not going to support the contention that Bush is intelligent just because he has a couple of degrees. After six years of watching him in action, I feel I'm able to draw my own conclusions in that area.

"What are the most popular entertainments today?
NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities"

Have you listened to Country Western Music lately? I detest Rap, and I cannot get into these current bands whoselyrcistrytocrameverhtingtheywantotsayintoonestanza...

I find a lot of it to be very poignant and soothing...sometimes even thought provoking...
I'll take the positive messages of Tim McGraw's "Live like you were Dying" and Toby Keith's "Beer for My Horses" over The Black Eyed Peas talking about her 'lovely lady hump' any day...and don't get me started about Rap...geez, everyone wanting to 'cap' everyone else...not my idea of entertainment...

I'd betcha anything that Hemingway would've been a C/W fan ...

Batman, if he's prepared.

With regard to GWB's intellegence: though a topic that often seems to degenerate into useless ad hominem attacks, I will admit that increasingly, I'm coming around to the suggestion posited by, I think, Jon Stewart: I don't think the president is stupid. But I think he thinks we are...

Rumpole and the Punge Bungalow Murders is great. I listened to the unabridged audio CD of it back in April, 2005. It was read by Bill Wallis. Have a fun time reading it.

Neil
http://www.toadmail.com/~nonews/2005_04_03_archive.html

By the way, you might want to hear a radio interview with Ken Jennings from KMOX on Paul Harris' webpage at http://www.harrisonline.com/

Neil

I actually think the turkeys might stand a decent shot. Think about us. If we're in a swarm of mosquitoes, or if you really wanna scare some people I know, bees, we're off balance, we're swatting at where these pests WHERE, more often than where they actually are, so, once the Rex picks up his leg to stomp on some turkeys, they gather en masse on his other leg, knock his ungainly butt over, then peck him to death, whilst discussing amongst themselves who's going to get the Rex's drumsticks and what to do with the wishbone. And Bill-these Kryptonian Superturkeys, what would you stuff them with? And can you buy them anywhere, or just Superfresh?

I know a woman, with a master's degree, who was a teacher, yes, a teacher, before she retired. One Thanksgiving, we went over to her house for dinner. She was making the (Non-Kryptonian) turkey, which required cooking for twenty minutes per pound. It was a 16 pound turkey. She wrote "20" 16 times on a piece of paper next to the stove, set the timer for twenty minutes, then did that 14 more times until my high-school graduate mother told her to just multiply the weight by the cooking time. My point, other than weaving more turkeys into this discussion? College degrees don't mean (necessarily) that a person is smart. They may know ONE TOPIC really well, but be a complete zilch in other areas. Just because Bush is a graduate doesn't make him a hyper-intellectual. Not having one may mean nothing more than you couldn't afford to GET one.

Know where I think the hostility toward smart people come from? Americans, as a whole, think of ourselves as VASTLY superior to the rest of the planet. We invented stuff! We did stuff! But, the vast majority of people haven't invented stuff, haven't done stuff, and are just riding along on others acheievements. So, you have a small group of people with superior knowledge or experience that seem able to do things the Common People couldn't, so they are seen as Acting Like We're Better Than The Rest Of You Slobs. People don't like to be reminded, by and large, that there's something they don't know or can't understand, so they try to belittle the ones that they see as above them. Kind of like a company that has a lot of employees. 98 per cent of those employees will resent the Boss, because he's above them, so they make fun of him behind his back and in the bathroom.

Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate

Sure it can. People who write your papers for you. Suggestions from Daddy that if Junior graduates, the college gets another building.

Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree

And a mother who served on the United Way board with IBM's chairman. That's how he got the MS-DOS contract that made his fortune; look it up.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

And Bill-these Kryptonian Superturkeys, what would you stuff them with?

Kryptonite. Otherwise the meat is too tough to eat.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

And can you buy them anywhere, or just Superfresh?

They're an endangered species. So you can only get them through extra-legal channels.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

People don't like to be reminded, by and large, that there's something they don't know or can't understand, so they try to belittle the ones that they see as above them.

I think you hit the nail right on the head, Sean.

"Heck, if all you want is the Giant Rat of Sumatra..."

Except I specifically said by Conan Doyle.

PAD

I'm just glad someone already dropped the WKRP reference. :-)

I'm not going to get into the Bush argument, since I think my opinions on the subject are already sufficiently public to get me onto several fascinating lists.

As for "this country doesn't value knowledge", however, I'm going to completely agree. Look at who makes the big money, just for starters.

It even goes as far as, oh, comic books. People used to learn to read on Marvel books (way back when), and there are certainly some creators out there (PAD among them) who have no fear of complex vocabulary and the idea that readers might actually be willing to see something new. Hell, the very first comic I remember reading (Amazing Spider-Man 164, by Len Wein and Ross Andru) drew a lot of letters a few months later because Len had misused the word "enervate." Could you imagine any such letter getting printed these days without being a setup for something massively snarky in response?

And what's the biggest seller Marvel has these days? New Avengers, which for the sake of being "cinematic" has gone through massively decompressed stories and far less dialogue than was previously the norm. I'm all for letting the visuals tell the story, but the dictum "keep it simple and obvious" seems to be written very large for that book.

Being educated and/or knowledgeable (yes, I realize they're not the same thing) used to be something we as a culture aspired to. Now it's more often dismissed as something that can be used to win trivia games and not much more.

And regardless of Bush's intelligence or lack thereof, I think this administration has taken very open anti-intellectual stances. Bush has all but said "I know where I stand, don't bother me with facts" on many a topic, and there has been relentless spin on topic after topic indicating that science is no more than one other "side" in a political process. Forget the facts -- what matters is being able to win.

Add in the number of students, even very bright ones, who say that they "don't read much," and I fear we're not much more than a generation or two away from being a post-literate society. I'm not looking forward to that.

TWL

Perhaps it has something to do with the elitist attitude of the so-called intelligentsia turning to ad hominem attacks against their political antagonists, referring to them as "knuckle draggers". The vocabulary may be sesquipedalian, but the end result is still recieved as an, 'Oh yeah? Well you're stupid!'

Ah, but what would be the result of a T-Rex drinking one thousand "Wild Turkey"s? :)

Perhaps it has something to do with the elitist attitude

You know, I don't know if this is a chicken-egg situation, but who came up with this "elitist attidue" bs, anyways?

Since most of those 'elists' are liberal college professors, I would have to guess it came from the Right.

So, who called names first? Was it the professors thinking everybody else is stupid? or was it the right-wingers telling everybody that college professors are evil liberals?

The Right certainly seems to enjoy preying on the stupidity of this country. I'm always amazed by the fact that the rich and the poor tend to be conservative, while the middle class are liberal. Why the hell are the poor conservative? It's Democrats who have done everything in their power to improve things for everybody as a whole.

Draw your own conclusions, I suppose.

Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

Something that goes hand in hand with not reading much is not being able to find something out when you want to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they didn't know something or where to look to find out. Has this culture become so convinced that if it isn't instant gratification, if there's some effort involved, it isn't worth doing? Does this entire country want to jump to the back page of the collective mystery novel?

So, to get these Kryptonian turkeys, you have to go through extra-legal channels. But, what if I don't WANT extra legs?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

RJ, is it possible that the sesquipedalian exchanges between the sides is a symptom of the hostility toward the educated? For example, the Brainiac class knows that the Normals (really, just using these for the sake of arguement) EXPECTS them to speak polysyllabically, so they're just acting to type?

Peter David: Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. Whether it's the disdainful description of experts on topics as "geeks" or "nerds," or the fact that a minuscule percentage of the consumer base is responsible for the vast majority of books bought, or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.
Luigi Novi: Thank you. I've observed this for some time too. It needs to be said.

Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

I'm so very sorry. I hope your sense of self-worth didn't hit the ground like a sack of wet cement...

Something that goes hand in hand with not reading much is not being able to find something out when you want to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they didn't know something or where to look to find out. Has this culture become so convinced that if it isn't instant gratification, if there's some effort involved, it isn't worth doing? Does this entire country want to jump to the back page of the collective mystery novel?

A great point. I make it a point with students to say "I don't know, but I'll find out" -- I generally do it just to make it clear that (a) I don't know everything, and (b) it's okay not to, but your point is well taken as well.

And back to a point of Peter's that Luigi just quoted -- I'm not certain that the description as "geeks" or "nerds" is always meant disparagingly. I'll often self-describe myself as a "physics geek", "SF geek", etc. As with so many things of this type, I think it depends on the mindset of the person using it (and yes, it certainly is disparaging in some cases).

(Aside: am I the only one who summed up the Trekkie/Trekker argument as "if you care that much about the label, the label itself won't change the essential sadness of that fact"?)

TWL

Want to know the real difference between a Trekkie and a Trekker?

Trekkie has an "i", Trekker has an "r'.

Thinking of the two Bush campains, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?" Unfortunately, we found out which. Now, I personally don't care if a president has all the personality of a bag of prunes, as long as he's doing a decent job. The guy in the White House has the personality of a bag of prunes, but he also isn't doing the job!

You know what defines the disparinging-ness of the word geek or nerd? The tone of voice.

I think it was Jon Stewart who said, "I don't want my president to be my drinking partner. I want my president to be the designated driver."

TWL

Alan Coil:
"With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class."
Jeff in NC:
And why are GM and Ford needing to do this? Could it have something to do with the agreement in the past that would provide full pensions to retired people? Basic math. Joe the steering wheel attacher retires and receives full pay and benefits. GM then needs to hire Bill to do the job. It now costs the company 2x (or just a little less because we can assume that Bill isn't making as much as Joe was) to have someone attach steering wheels.

So that would explain the multi-million dollar hirings of new executives by companies laying off line employees while also begging that courts uphold a company's right to alter (or abolish completely) the employees' pension plans?
Sorry, Jeff, but I'm not about to accept your "basic math" bull when a company like Ford can announce today laying off 1/3 of its white collar workers (as part of a plan/scheme to "cut costs" by 5 billion dollars by the end of 2008) while--just 10 days ago--it hires Alan Mulally as its new CEO at an annual BASE salary of 2 MILLION dollars in addition to a HIRING BONUS of 7.5 MILLION dollars PLUS 11 MILLION dollars to offset "forfeited performance and stock option awards from Boeing (his prior company) with a "variety of stock options" on top of all that. Now, how many regular workers out there in the real world--AT THE AGE OF 61--ever gets that type of compensation consideration? Hell, how likely is it that, when you reach the age of 61, any company will offer you anything more than minimum wage, especially if the company is losing billions of dollars every year?
"Basic math" to me would suggest that a company losing a billion dollars in the past year would NOT hire a new CEO at such an exorbitant salary.

Tim does his students a HUGE favor when he tells them he doesn't know something, but he'll find out. Certain profeesions, teachers, scientists, doctors, et cetera, have the expectation of Knowledge with a capital Know in it. Too many teachers that I've had had the attitude, I'm The Teacher, What I Say Is Gospel For I Know ALL. And that goes back to my company/boss analogy from before. People don't LIKE it when you know more than they do. But, when they need someone in these professions, and that person doesn't have the answer, well, they can't, I say, CAN'T be any good at their job. Too many times I've seen people who figure, "I'm out of school, I know all about the world, time to shut my brain down." Just because one doesn't know something, doesn't mean that either it can't be known is ins't worth knowing. For example, today I learned the world sesquipedalian, and I can't WAIT to use that at work. Guarantee I get a few funny looks.

A friend of mine who is a very successful animator refers to himself as a "film geek." I know I proudly wear the label of "comic-book geek."

It depends on who is using the word. To me, a "geek" can be a person who has committed passionately to excelling in a certain field with a singular, laser-like focus. I've always admired people like that and aspire to imitate them.

Yeah, I know, many people use it disparagingly. I feel badly for those people. They'll never know the thrill of immersing themselves in a passion, the magic of discovering within themselves the capacity to excel, and of pushing themselves to their limits and beyond to accomplish something worthwhile -- and maybe even contribute to stretching the boundaries of their chosen field.

You don't have to be a superstar in a glamour field to know that thrill, by the way. You just have to be committed to something. My late grandfather was a railroad man. There wasn't much room for him to innovate on the job. You just did what had to be done to make the trains run. When he retired, however, he spent a great deal of time reading anything he could get his hands on. He even read an entire encyclopedia set just to while away the time.

He made the acquisition of knowledge his personal passion, and his life was much richer for it.

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

You know what I love about this blog?

People get into spirited debate about Kryptonian turkeys!

My day is that much brighter now.

P.S. T-Rex, cavemen and Superman win. Now Chuck Norris vs. MacGyver, that's a debate.

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Tell that to the vast percentage of the citizenry who disapprove of W's job performance.

Major case of buyer's regret there.

Jeff in NC:

You are for sure deluded if you think that an auto worker gets full pay after he retires. I don't have the exact numbers, but the annual retirement pay for an auto worker is around $15,000. The health benefits are also reduced after retirement and go away completely when the federal programs start.

"The problem is that many democrats consider themselves smarter than anyone else..thus everyone else is stupid."

This Democrat IS smarter than average, but I don't assume that everybody else is stupid. If you know anything about statistics, you know that most people are in a large group near the center. That means that only those with the lowest IQ ratings are stupid.

"The plumber that will come over to fix your waterheater and charges $60 per hour probably doesn't have a college degree."

I agree that not everyone needs a college degree. But the lack of properly educated people leads to the current situation where foreign born workers are moving top the US to get high paying jobs. (And don't come back to me with that weak-assed thought of illegal immigrants don't get high paying jobs; I'm talking about properly trained professionals.)

Posted by: Eric! at September 15, 2006 02:53 PM

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Eric!, I'm afraid you're an example of exactly what Peter is talking about.

What you're saying is, "Don't reflect, don't analyze, don't think -- just focus on what's in front of you at this moment."

Some people recognize the need to do more than that. Some of us want to understand things, so we can be in the driver's seat of life rather than the passenger's seat.

But, hey, you can ride in the passenger's seat if you wish. If you don't like where the driver takes you, though, he may tell you...

"Get over it." And you'll have no choice in the matter.

"Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

I'm so very sorry. I hope your sense of self-worth didn't hit the ground like a sack of wet cement..."

Should that happen, they'll probably be blown away by the Godless tornado.

"Thinking of the two Bush campaigns, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?""

Blame part of it on television. Campaigns have become less about who is best qualified to lead, but instead who do people feel at ease aobut "letting into their homes." They choose presidents the same way they choose what to watch on a Thursday night: By comfort level.

PAD

Posted by: Queen Anthai at September 15, 2006 03:03 PM

You know what I love about this blog?

People get into spirited debate about Kryptonian turkeys!

Pre-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys, no less.

I am far less familiar with Post-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys. I presume they are less powerful and very confused about their origins.

You know, it just occurred to me -- if the post-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys are from the Byrne revamp era, during which Krypton was portrayed as a cold, emotionless and sterile world... would they be cold turkeys?

I know, I know, that was bad... but I couldn't resist.

I have no idea why I'm on this Kryptonian turkey riff. But now that I am I just can't seem to stop myself.

Dan Nakasagi asked:

"Have you listened to Country Western Music lately?"

Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today's so-called Country Western is banal.

I'm not a big fan of Rap, either, but Eminem is a f888ing genius.

"Beer for My Horses"

What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?

Thinking of the two Bush campains, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?"

Y’know, I’ve always gotten a kick out of this notion since Bush, being a former alcoholic (or a dry drunk), would theoretically not have a beer with *anyone*.

Of course, the Onion has its own take on the phenomenon: “Long-Awaited Beer With Bush Really Awkward, Voter Reports” (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42590).

Jim in NC said:

"Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree."

That is an exceptional case. Using one case to argue a point is just plain dishonest. In a country of almost 300,000,000 people, even a thousand or two stories about successful people who did not get a degree doesn't properly illustrate a point.

My friend was having trouble convincing her son of the importance of attending college. He finally "got it" when he found out that college graduates, on average, make twice as much as those who only have a high school degree.

"The government already pays for 12 years of education for kids."

No, the government does not pay for that. YOU DO. It is part of making a better society. People with no education at all are more likely to live in poverty and are more likely to commit crimes.

Better educated people are more likely to get better paying jobs, which leads in turn to more tax income for the federal, state, and local governments, which makes for better roads and cleaner and safer water, to name two specific benefits of people having more education.

[b]Posted by Bill Myers
Some people recognize the need to do more than that. Some of us want to understand things, so we can be in the driver's seat of life rather than the passenger's seat.
[/b]
Bill, how long you going to sit in that driver's seat when the car's outta gas and has 4 flats. Get over the fact your car is broken down, either get a new car, fix it or get out and walk, bithin' about it for years ain't fixing it.

Eric!, the problem is, voting for president's not as cut-and-dried as getting your car fixed. For one thing, we've got awhile before we vote for the next president. We can't just, y'know, trade him in anytime we want.

Moreover, when your car's as busted as the one in your hypothetical, you know it. The issues surrounding the presidency are more complex and take more time to discuss. People of goodwill can even disagree about what, if anything, is broken.

I'm afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren't enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.

Bill said: I'm afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren't enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.

Bill, it's your car we were sitting in before, now it's mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I'm sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.

I've said this before, but as much fun as it is to pick on Bush for being intellectually challenged, I don't really think he's a stupid man, but he is anti-intellectual. I don't for a second believe he actually read Camus (c'mon, a French author?) or Shakespeare this summer without a promise of free tickets to Six Flags if he finished by Labor Day.

Time and time again, Bush as shown that he is not interested in having his own views challenged. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, he bases his decision on which side most conforms to his preexisting views, rather than which side made more compelling factual argument. Besides the Iraq and WMD issue that has been discussed to death, there's also the fact that he is generally hostile to science in general. Again, he consistantly chooses the side which best appeases his base rather than which side has the bulk of scientific evidence behind it.

Now, as to the subject of elitism. I'd love to known where this idea came from that people earning college professor wages have become the "elitists" of this country, but billionaire CEOs and those with the connections to buy a baseball team by calling a few of daddy's friends are considered just plain ol' Americans.

Take a college professor and the CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation. Tell me which one is more likely to accepted into an exclusive country club. Then tell me who the real "elites" of this country are.

I'm just amazed (although I shouldn't be) how quickly and simply that a tale of Ken Jennngs turns into an insult for the President of the United States.

Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

I've studied the man. Why does anyone here think that Senator Kerry has the qualities neccessary to deal with the trials, tribulations and tasks that are for the leader of the free world?

I saw the man speak before the Senate last week, September 6. The occasion was the discussion (a reiteration, of course) for the removal of Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense. Senator Kerry had his chance to speak and spoke not quite of anything about Secretary Rumsfeld but instead repeated the majority of the points, claims, and statements that he made during his failed bid for the Presidency. Before he did that he made some mis-statements about claims of the President and Pro-Victory/Pro-War people and possibly some true statements about inaccurate beliefs that some American people may hold. I don't know if he ever did get to speaking about Donald Rumsfeld because I got bored and muted him.

The point being I would take plain-spokenness as a sign of intelligentness if it means that in a discussion about condemning a government official you actually lead off by condemning the government official instead of repeating old stuff that never led anywhere anyway.

As far as the T-Rex vs Turkey fight goes, it seems to me to be a no-brainer. Turkeys don't organize so 1000 or 1 million wouldn't matter much. They'd be eaten and stomped on and never dream of attacking the dinosaur. If they got hungry they'd eat each other before they'd take on a killing machine like the Tyrannosaurus.

100 midgets vs a T-Rex, now that's cool.

I think it was Jon Stewart who said, "I don't want my president to be my drinking partner. I want my president to be the designated driver."

And Ted Kennedy's ambitions take another blow.

What are the most popular entertainments today?

NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities.

I'm not sure "mind bending" is what we are looking for if we want to increase the national intelligence you are so worried about. If so, I hear that the small white mushrooms you find under cow patties may do the trick.

As for country music, it's not generally my thing but I would put the best CW music up against the best hip hop and rap and I think the country best would win in terms of artistry involved. Of course, this is subjective and not very useful to the argument at hand. In fact, I don't think you can draw many valid conclusions from how people entertain themselves--certainly the folks who sniff at those who read mere comic books reveal more about their own ignorance than they do about the targets of their derision.

A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?

Did that USA Today article say anything about how 17% stacks up against other countries? What I've read seems to indicate that we are among the most highly educated countries on Earth. At http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-collegeglut.htm they compare us to a bunch and we look pretty good. Now, these statistics can be tricky. Another source--http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/051700-01.htm says that the USA has fallen behind Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands, though with a number of 33 percent graduating from college that sounds a good bit better than USA Today indicated. I am not aware that Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands are exactly killing us in "the marketplace" by the way.

(You have to be very careful in looking at education statistics. When they say that Upper Volta or Left Fenwick have 25% of their students graduate from college, what does that mean? Does everyone even get to be a student or is it just those who can afford it?).

At any rate, I think the reports of our hostility to knowledge are greatly exaggerated. I think we probably DO lead the world in having people who think they are a whole lot smarter than the folks around them.

Posted by: Eric! at September 15, 2006 04:10 PM

Bill, it's your car we were sitting in before, now it's mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I'm sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.

Eric!, now you're just playing rhetorical games. My driving analogy was merely about who is in the driver's seat -- in other words, who is taking charge of their own destiny by thinking ahead and planning their trip, instead of letting someone else do that for them. My point was that if you merely live moment-to-moment, only focusing on what's in front of your nose, you'll be a passenger on someone else's trip.

Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.

By the way, I apologize for breaking out of the little box you tried to put me in, but if McCain, a REAL conservative, runs for president in '08, he'll probably have my vote.

>Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess.

The problem with this sentence is that "wave" suggests something either recent, or temporary. Given that Dr. Asimov's 1967 essay THE CULT OF IGNORANCE bemoaned pretty much the same thing, I'd say we've got even more to worry about than something that's merely a passing fad.

Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

Really? Because I did a search of this entire page and the comments about Kerry were made by people disparaging him ,ie, saying his grades were lower than Bush's, or telling everyone "get over" the fact that he lost. I haven't seen anyone describe him as their "fantasy" chief executive.

Now, I voted for Kerry, but I would have voted for Goofy over Bush. He was never my first choice or even my fifth choice for president. He was, however, the only viable alternative to the four more years of lies and incompetence that we are now stuck with.

Peter made a comment dispairing over how little intellectual achievement is valued in today's society. While this trend did not start with him, like it or not, Bush does symbolize that. He is not a thinker. Even his college professors described him as a man of limited intellectual curiosity.

Kerry does have a tendency to talk in circles with overly complicated sentences. Sadly, our sound bite political races today have little patience for any candidate that can't get a point across in under five seconds. I don't know what kind of president he would have been and we'll probably never know that.

It is interesting, however, in that a criticism of Bush is immediately countered with a comparison of his grades to Kerry's. So, is Kerry the "fantasy chief executive" of Bush's critics, or, having been beaten by them once, the fantasy opponent for Bush's supporters?

And Ted Kennedy's ambitions take another blow.

Teddie's chances of becoming president have been dead in the water (ouch!) for 30 years now.
He hasn't even tried to run for president since 1980, yet it's amazing how many people keep bringing him up.

Looking around the blogs, I'd say that Ted Kennedy's driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.

The first, of course, is Bill Clinton's penis.

And Bill, this wasn't directed at you personnally. It's just something that I find amusing.

and according to my decidedly left-wing public policy class, President Clinton's nationalized healthcare plan might have gone over better with the general public if it could have been described in a more plainly-spoken fashion.

Re: country music -

I'll admit that there is more lyrical skill and much (much) more musicianship involved in country than in boy band music - but it's just as intolerably annoying as boy band junk. Some people have begun bringing their own radios into work recently, and there have been some days when someone has had the country station on. (Luckily, I haven't had to work within hearing range of such a radio for any long stretches of time.) And I just cannot comprehend why someone would CHOOSE to listen to that ye-haw yodelly twangy annoying garbage. Some of the female singers are less high-pitched accentedly-awful than most of the men, but still... to me, it seems like saying "I will listen to a forty-five minute recording of dentist drills and nails on chalkboards! Woo!"

To: Bill Myers
Re: Cold turkeys

YOU BROKE MY BRAIN.

the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

In whose f***ing universe, Chris? Nobody who's spoken up on this thread, that's for sure.

When I think of various fantasy alternative candidates, I could name a few dozen Democrats and at least a few Republicans I'd put ahead of Kerry.

Whlie I disagree with your points most of the time, they do usually qualify as rational. This is not one of those times.

TWL

The turkey question reminded me of a fun little book called GRUDGE MATCH that (sadly) never spawned a second volume. The book set up "battles" between different foes, usually ones selected from pop culture. But one match was "A Rottweiler vs. A Rottweiler's Weight in Chihuahuas."

The book was derived from the following website which, though the battles have ended, is still around:

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html

I think my favorite match-up was "Red-Shirted Ensigns vs. Stormtroopers."

Re: Bush's degrees.

Well, as someone who's attended Yale (admittedly as a grad student to Bush's undergrad) and been reasonably closely associated with a group of Harvard undergrads, my take on them is as follows;

1) When Bush attended Yale, it was right at the cusp of switching from a serious old boys with a minority of random smart sharp types school to the other way around. Given his legacy status, and the time he was admitted, Bush need not have been anywhere near the level you'd currently associate with a Yale admittee. Especially given his family's prominence in Connecticut, where Yale is located, politics.

2) Not that well known fact about the top Ivies even today; it's a lot easier to stay in once admitted than to get in. Harvard's grade inflation got so bad that a few years ago it was revealed that 90+% of undergrads were graduating with honors and they had to tone it down. Assuming this was also the case in Bush's time, he would've had to make a significant effort to manage to get booted.

Given those factors, and Bush's own performance, words, and beliefs, I don't consider him smart or intellectually curious. To put it another way, I can't see having a real conversation with Bush on issues where he wasn't sticking to talking points and generalities. I'm honestly not sure if one could have such with Kerry. I have had such with Gore. I'm pretty sure I could have such with either Clinton.

Peter David: Blame part of it on television. Campaigns have become less about who is best qualified to lead, but instead who do people feel at ease aobut "letting into their homes." They choose presidents the same way they choose what to watch on a Thursday night: By comfort level.
Luigi Novi: Precisely. We’re living in a society where we adjudicate matters of great importance with the thinking of high school cliques. How you look, what clothes you wear, what religion your are, etc., are all actual criteria people use instead of merit or ability. This is a society where two defendants on trial for blowing their parents away with shotguns are perceived by some to have a greater chance of leniency if they’re wearing nice sweaters.

Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.

Peter David: Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.

Alan Coil: It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country.

Jeff in NC: It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree.
Luigi Novi: Peter and Alan didn’t say anything about grades or degrees. Peter mentioned the antipathy towards knowledge and intellect, and Alan mentioned intelligence and education, which are not synonymous with formal education. The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability.

Eric: Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.
Luigi Novi: No one mentioned Gore except you, and the only person who mentioned Kerry’s loss in the election before you was Blue Spider, who clearly opined that Kerry did not have greater qualifications than Bush to be President, and Den, who admitted that he didn’t think Kerry was a very good candidate, and who criticized Kerry for his style of speaking.

So whose comments are you responding to?

Looking around the blogs, I'd say that Ted Kennedy's driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.

That's possible. It's just an amazing and apalling thing to me that a guy so manifestly evil should have made it this far. He's the Senator who is most like a fictional character out of Dickens or Lovecraft. "Ted Kennedy at the wheel" is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.

(And don't think of Kennedy as a typical liberal, Democrat, or even Kennedy. He's one of a kind.)

Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.

I remember that story but since most voters never saw the guy they voted for how much of a difference would it have made.

Oops! here's the story from wiki--Grace Bedell, an 11-year old girl from Westfield, New York, sent Abraham Lincoln a letter on October 15, 1860 (a few weeks before Lincoln was elected President of the United States). Bedell urged Lincoln to grow a beard to improve his appearance. Lincoln responded in a letter on October 19, 1860, making no promises. However, within a month, he grew a full beard.

Dear Sir

My father has just home from the fair and brought home your picture and Mr. Hamlin's. I am a little girl only 11 years old, but want you should be President of the United States very much so I hope you wont think me very bold to write to such a great man as you are. Have you any little girls about as large as I am if so give them my love and tell her to write to me if you cannot answer this letter. I have got 4 brothers and part of them will vote for you any way and if you let your whiskers grow I will try and get the rest of them to vote for you you would look a great deal better for your face is so thin. All the ladies like whiskers and they would tease their husbands to vote for you and then you would be President. My father is going to vote for you and if I was a man I would vote for you to but I will try to get every one to vote for you that I can I think that rail fence around your picture makes it look very pretty I have got a little baby sister she is nine weeks old and is just as cunning as can be. When you direct your letter direct to Grace Bedell Westfield Chautauqua County New York.

I must not write any more answer this letter right off Good bye

Grace Bedell

Alan Culy (seeing as you insisted on calling me "Dan Nakasagi") said:

"What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?"

Oh, come on...the first image that came to mind when I first heard that song was Thor and the Warriors Three sitting down at a table in an Inn, swigging down flaggons of Ale....(grin)--sorry, not into emocons...I need words...

Exciting or Banal is a matter of opinion, not a universal truth-- it can based on the individual's experience and what is available in other genere's of the day...

And I'm sorry...but ALL RAP SUCKS (in my opinion)...if they were such geniuses, why couldn't they put their thoughts and feelings into the iambic pentameters of real poetry?

"Ted Kennedy at the wheel" is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.
-----------------------------------------

Would you rather it be "Clinton, his zipper undone" (probably THE most popular obsession...) (grin)?

Would you rather it be "Clinton, his zipper undone" (probably THE most popular obsession...) (grin)?

Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?

You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense.

If you don't like someone or something, what's wrong with simply saying 'I don't like _____." Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?

When you say you like ______, people don't ask you why you like _____. Yet, if you don't like _______, it seems as though people simply have to know WHY you don't like _______.

So then you have to come up with absolutes as to WHY you don't like______. And because you use absolutes to justify your dislike, people take it as a truth about that person/place/thing.

Its this intelligence thing keeps coming up though--its fast becoming one of my pet peeves.
---------------------------------------------
Luigi--"The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability."

-----------------------------
Luigi, I'm sorry, but that's just misleading---you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush
"he got into the schools he attended because of family connections"--you can't prove that and you know it.

"John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability."
---what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you're not going to use the information that you've read about? And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?

And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know 'what you mean.'

I simply don't like it...

And while we are on the subject of intelligence:
"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural. The sentence should read: Alan's statement is correct: Education (not necessarily "college" or "degrees") IS necessary, even if its not perceived to be. (You see,I did not eschew nor disdain English Grammar....(grin))

Craig wrote:

"Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

------------------------------
And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon...
(although frankly speaking, I really don't care to actually SEE it....)

Bill Mulligan said:
"Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?"
-----------------------------
...and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either...

And on a complete different topic, Peter David fans can hear him discuss his current body of work, including "Fall of Knight," "Soulsearchers and Company," "Fallen Angel," "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man," "X-Factor," and "Marvel 1602: Fantastick Four" at 11:30 PM EDT tonight when he makes his record-breaking 19th appearance on "Destinies-The Voice of Science Fiction." For those in the Long Island/Connecticut area, "Destinies" airs on 90.1 FM, WUSB, Stony Brook, NY. Others can listen live through links at www.wusb.fm. After the broadcast, the show will be archived and available for free at www.captphilonline.com/Destinies.html. And, as a bonus, further down the page on that site, you will be able to hear Peter's October 24, 2003 appearance on "Destinies."

And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon...

Well, according to Gennifer Flowers he'll never be on a hung jury...

Novi:
So whose comments are you responding to?
Um, that'd be PAD's, he mentioned the election Bush won, maybe you'd like to forget who he ran against, but that won't make it so.

Bill:Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.

My car wasn't about the election, it was about the same argument that is brought up reguarding the election, and how that is getting nobody anywhere, kind of like a broken car, ypu may be right maybe broken record is better. The usual arguaments:
- Americans are stupid
- Election was stolen
- He didn't get popular vote yadda yadda on and on......we've heard it and it's nothing new.

Sorry, would have jumped in sooner but wrestling was on. Finley, he loves to fight!!!!

I think some of you guys have been arguing two different things but calling it by the same name. Some of you seem to be making statements that apply to intelligence while other are arguing the finer point of intellect.

Bush does have some intelligence. He has shown the ability to capitalize on what skills he does have, even if his greatest skill was being born to a family with connections, better then most. His grades aren't necessarily an indicator of his level of intelligence either. I've known some people who are terrifyingly brilliant but were just lazy or uninterested while going through school and, as did Bush, scraped by with mostly Ds.

What Bush doesn't seem to have is intellect. Bush shows that he has very little regard for intellect or intellectual growth. He disdains serious reading, has stated he cares little for watching or reading the news or of the events of the world and has had several rather infamous meetings with experts where he left early and asked for the summery short version notes or highlights for later. His pattern of bankrupting every business that he got hold of while learning no lessons to not bankrupt the next business (or the country) shows either the inability to learn from his past endeavors/mistake or simply no desire to do so. He has also had a publicly know disdain for "intellectuals" that goes back to when his dad was in office that many of his followers hold up as one of his great character assets.

Did his victory really say anything about how the country views intelligence? No. But the statements at the time of the 2000 and 2004 elections do say something about just about half of the U.S. voters. Dig up some old editorials, letters to the editors or transcripts of call in shows on radio and TV. Most of the people who were identifying themselves as Bush backers were talking about how great it was that he wasn't that bright. A huge number of hosts talked about how Clinton, Gore and Kerry were policy wonks or nerds and how great it would be/was to have a regular Joe as President. A huge number of his own backers were publicly saying how great it was that he didn't seem as smart as his predecessors and actually attacked his opponents for being smart or having knowledge about policy issues.

And those same people are the ones who seem to most violently hate intellect. Anyone with a degree or a PHD in front of their name is an elite and can't be trusted. Those elites are out of touch with "regular" America and think they can tell dumb ass middle America what to do. Scientists aren't to be trusted and most doctors really have no clue what their talking about either.

My favorite phrase coming out of some, and I stress some rather then all, conservative circles and conservative talk shows is, "I'm not a scientist, but I am a thinker." This is usually followed with an observation about science, history or academe that is painfully wrong but greeted with thumbs ups from fellow "thinkers" in the room. It's just, so we're told, common sense. Problem is, common sense and real life don't always work off of the same page. But a whole lot of people out there would rather be happy about their common sense being better then those elite's "facts" then have to admit that they might be wrong about something and change they're POV. It's seems to be the mindset that keeps talk radio alive.

Bush, to some degree, did win because he seemed more of a regular guy and not really that bright. The scary thing, when talking about learning curves and intellect, is that his most ardent supporters seem to only grow more enamored of him the dumber his actions and statements seem to get. Wonder who they'll lower their standards for in 2008?

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 15, 2006 06:22 PM

It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.

Now THAT reference I got.

Geez, Bill, it's scary. You're AT LEAST as nerdy as I am.

By the way, I know I could have merely looked up "Atragon" via Google. But you wouldn't have had nearly as much fun if I had. So I decided to play "Khidir beneath Momouteh."

In other words... "Temba, his arms wide."

Jerry C, regarding your last post...

You know by now that do so I love to go on (and on, and on, and...). But your analysis of George W. Bush, and people's reasons for voting for him, is dead on and leaves me with nothing to add worth adding.

Well, nothing except to say: well said, my good man.

Sorry, Alan Coil, you lost me when you called Eminem a "f888ing genius". A f888ing BIGOT, that I'll go along with.

And, of course, many Americans hate intelligent people. Intelligent people make it harder for some to push their religious agendas (read: creationism is schools).

Getting a STNG ref ain't that scary.

Now, it might have been scary if you had said that you ran right out and bought Atragon. But only scary because it sells at such a nice price at deepdiscountdvd.com (free shipping). Don't want you spending more money then you have too.

Now, I have to be going. There's a group of nut balls from Ansby running around outside going on about crusades and I have to go ask them to move their spaceship. It's squashing my tomato vines.

Thanks.

That should say:

Bill,

Thanks

I keep loosing bits on the starts and ends of posts this week. Is it only me?

You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth.

A valiant attempt to cloud the issue, but no dice. I don't see anybody trying to say that being more intelligent makes one intrinsically "better" than someone else. The original post and subsequent conversation largely bemoan the ever-present, and seemingly growing anti-intellectual sentiment in American society.

Also, while intelligence is not a fair yardstick of human "worth," it's a damn good indicator of a person's qualifications for a job, especially one with the responsibilities inherent in the highest political office in our nation, possibly the world.

And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?

And now you're being disingenuous at best, deliberately thick and insulting at worst. The ability to form a coherent sentence and orate well in front of a crowd is not the same as the physical ability to speak. Even since he lost the capacity for physical speech and has to communicate through a machine, Professor Hawking still has the ability to present interesting (and yes, intellectual) ideas in an interesting and intelligible manner.

-Rex Hondo-

Can I just take a moment to say this is a thread I'll remember on my deathbed?

Turkeys vs T. Rex, cogent (and semi-cogent, and not-at-all cogent) political debate, and a reference to Tamrians all in one place...

I salute you all - even the facist right-wingers! ;)

I keep expecting to see trekkies at cons conversing in Tamarian. Perhaps even adding to the rich metaphorical history. "Herman at Creationcon"; "Jeffrey, his virginity unendangered."; "Eugene, alone in his basement."

"...and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either..."

Y'know, Dan, I remember how you said that you showed up here apparently to provide laughs. Just for the record, the only thing you've ever said that I considered remotely funny was the whining e-mail you sent me claiming I'd been censoring you, and how everyone was being mean to you, and how you were packing up and leaving because you could take a hint...when all that was happening was that your posts were being caught in the spam filter.

I laughed at that.

PAD

I realize that this was said a million comments ago but implying that NASCAR, Pro-wrestling, and country music are signs of stupidity IS a sign of stupidity or, more likely, mean-spiritedness and ignorance.

I find NASCAR boring, wrestling outdated, and country music vapid and possibly evil but none of these things are signs of stupidity. They're signs of that mythical liberal elitism making itself true. Statements like that are part of the problem with this country and drive people who like such things away from those who can help them and into the arms of Bush.

"Wonder who they'll lower their standards for in 2008?"

See, that's it right there. That standards are being lowered. Dan Quayle was a liability years ago, generally perceived as an intellectual lightweight not remotely capable of being president.

Bush makes Dan Quayle look like Aristotle.

PAD

Posted by: Kim Metzger at September 15, 2006
">http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html

Okay, I am TOTALLY settling this RIGHT NOW.

http://www.ultimateshowdown.org/

So there.

RE: Turkeys vs. T-Rex

A few possible scenarios as I see them:

A) Regular ol' Earth Turkeys vs T-Rex. T-Rex'll win this one hands down. Setting aside that turkeys are possibly the dumbest creatures on God's green earth, their numbers would most likely work against them. They have to worry about hitting each other, and Rex (hee hee) can stomp and gobble anything he wants.

B) Pre-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Part of the suite of powers granted by a yellow sun to pre-Crisis Kryptonians was super intellect. So, assuming the fight is taking place on Earth, the Super-Turkeys should have little trouble overwhelming the T-Rex.

C) Post-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Now, last I checked, the super intellect was not a current part of Supes' (eat it Byrne) powers. So, even though they're super powered, they have no cohesive strategy and their numbers are going to be working against each other again. If the T-Rex can bob and weave enough to let the gobblers take themselves out with fairly random heat rays and such, he could still come out on top, but it's about a 50/50 thing.

-Rex Hondo-

The Kryptonian turkeys wouldn't be a problem. See, in one of his anti-Superman schemes, Lex wound up millions of years in the past and was confronted by that T-Rex which he then shot with the only weapon he had at the time. An anti-Superman machine gun with Kryptonite bullets. They weren't enhough to kill the T-Rex, just drive it away for a bit. But they're still in his body and when the turkeys get too close ...

Posted by Alan Coil

In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents.

"Suppose you were an idiot.

"Now suppose you were a Congressman.

"But I repeat myself."

-Mark Twain

Posted by RJM

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

A particularly pointed joke for Atlantans - like many bits on "WKRP", it actually happened here at (i think) WSB, where the "WKRP" creator was Program Director. (The teevee version is somewhat exaggerated, of course.)

Posted by Joe Nazzaro

Bush has probably never read anything by Shakespeare, let alone be able to spell his name?

Why are you holding Bush to a higher standard than Shakespeare (Shaksper, Shakespear, Shakspeer, etc.)?

Posted by Jeff

It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree. Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate.

What colour is the sky in your world?

I'd just about bet that Bush took "crip" courses. At Georgia Tech, in my day, Geology 101 was informally known as "Rocks for Jocks"... And i don't know if the Georgia Tech IM program has yet recovered fully from the Pepper Rogers days when that was the major of choice for jocks.

If the average football player can graduate, certainly a rich man's son can buy a degree.

Is this the same Bill Clinton that thought that the most watched man in the world could get away with an affair with an intern and then lie about it?

No, this is the same Bill Clinton who figured he'd get the same "pass" from the press that a number of Presidents of both parties, since at least FDR, have gotten from the press. (Incluyding, according to an article i saw somewhere recently, quite possibly the current President's father.)

Anything using USA Today as a source defeats any arguement about intelligence. USA Today...the newspaper for people that thing broadcast news is too complex.

Just as Unitarians are frequently lapsed Episcopalians, regular Fox News watchers tend to be people whose lips get tired reading USA Today

Posted by Joe Nazzaro

And much as it pains me, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between lower gas prices and the upcoming elections.

Yaeh, i wish i could blame Bush for being that smart.

Oil futures have been driving prices, according to one report i read, and that market is just about saturated; i read yeaterday that futures price are at a two-year low.

Posted by Jon Meltzer

Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate

Sure it can. People who write your papers for you. Suggestions from Daddy that if Junior graduates, the college gets another building.

Long joke short: Famous race trainer dies. Leaves twenty million to UK. COndition: Award degree to his favourite horse. Dean of Law School say "No problem.. Do you know how nice it's going to be to award a law degree to a whole horse for once?"

Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree

And a mother who served on the United Way board with IBM's chairman. That's how he got the MS-DOS contract that made his fortune; look it up.

That and the head of Digital Research blew off his appointment with the IBM suits.

Posted by Sasha

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Tell that to the vast percentage of the citizenry who disapprove of W's job performance.

And to the small but significant portion of the electorate who were disenfanchised by the Florida Secretary of State and/or the US Supreme Court.

Posted by Alan Coil

You are for sure deluded if you think that an auto worker gets full pay after he retires. I don't have the exact numbers, but the annual retirement pay for an auto worker is around $15,000.

A typical contract for which i could find numbers:

The United Auto Workers, against seemingly long odds, has won wage increases and pension improvements for the more than 4000 union members employed by New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI) - the General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. joint venture in Fremont, California.

Over the life of the agreement, the monthly pension benefit will increase $47.45 to $51.65 per year of credited service

The Car Connection. 9/15/06
">http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/NUMMI_UAW_Agree_on_Pact.S175.A9078.html

Okay. accept the lower (current) as typical of the industry (and it is). Assume thirty years of service.

30 x $47.45 x 12 = $17000 plus.

A lot of autoworkers (like most unionised industrial workers) tend to spend their entire career at one company, which means more like forty or even fifty years (start at 18, work till 67). So he starts at age 20, works till he's 65, and gets the higher rate:

45 x $51.65 x 12 = $27891

Hardly $15000

And the health benefits retirees get are hadly trivial, or GM wouldn't work so hard to get out of pating them.

And there is mention in that article of annual lump-sum bonuses for retirees.

Dan Nakasagi asked:

"Have you listened to Country Western Music lately?"

Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today's so-called Country Western is banal.

alt.country is where you wanna be, my man -- Jason & the Scorchers, BR-549, Hank III, Junior Brown, Commander Cody, Asleep at the Wheel, the Waco Brothers...

By The Way:

Didn't Mrs. David attend Yale? If so, does she have any opinions on the question of the Shrub's (alleged) intellectual gifts?

Hey! "Preview" works!

When did that ahppen?

>http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html
I think my favorite match-up was "Red-Shirted Ensigns vs. Stormtroopers."

Thanks for the tip. Lots of fun items there, though I think many participants wildly underestimated Federation technology. Red shirts carry weapons a little larger than old-style cigarette lighters (type I phasers with type II being even more powerful) which pack enough punch to vaporize a man-sized object, have a wide-field setting which allow it to hit several targets at once (RETURN OF THE ARCHONS) or be set to overload which gives it the explosive force of a heavy artillery round. Imperial blasters are powerful, but it's no contest. Ditto Enterprise vs Death Star, but I won't take up space here explaining why.

Posted by Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 12:31 AM

I keep expecting to see trekkies at cons conversing in Tamarian. Perhaps even adding to the rich metaphorical history. "Herman at Creationcon"; "Jeffrey, his virginity unendangered."; "Eugene, alone in his basement."

HA! Priceless, Bill. Priceless. :)

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 15, 2006 08:14 PM

And while we are on the subject of intelligence:

"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Oh, bravo, Dan. You caught Luigi in a rare gaffe. You must feel like quite the man now.

YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.

It's easy to make a mistake in a blog posting, by the way. Luigi may have begun by writing "Education and such-and-such...", decided to edit himself, and merely forgot to change the "are" to "is." Luigi is probably too busy to edit his posts as carefully as he might edit, say, a business correspondence.

Dan, you're being a complete and utter PRICK. THIS is why so many people are being "mean" to you. In one of your posts, you told me I had brought your wrath upon myself, as though that wrath meant a damn thing to me. It doesn't. But the fact that you cried like a baby to Peter about how most of us DON'T LIKE YOU A DAMN BIT demonstrates that YOU care about THAT.

Well, Dan, YOU brought THAT upon YOURself.

By the way, folks, when I say that Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here... well, that's a bit like choosing between chocolate ice cream and Rocky Road. They're both so good.

This is a really, really, really good crowd. Trolls like Dan are the exception rather than the rule. Thanks for letting me play in the same sandbox!

PAD's statement up above like Bush makes Quayle(I always thought that in itself was funny, a guy named Bush with a VP named Quayle) look like Aristotle made one really mean-spirited thought go through my head.

Bush makes Quayle's potatoe look like Aristotle.

Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess.

PAD's statement up above like Bush makes Quayle(I always thought that in itself was funny, a guy named Bush with a VP named Quayle) look like Aristotle made one really mean-spirited thought go through my head.

Bush makes Quayle's potatoe look like Aristotle.

Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess.

B, (if you're still here)

"I find NASCAR boring, wrestling outdated, and country music vapid and possibly evil but none of these things are signs of stupidity. They're signs of that mythical liberal elitism making itself true."

Really? I'm in the center when it comes to politics but lean left a lot of times. Two officers I work with are bed wetting libs on everything except gun control. You know how we kill long, dull, nothing happening shifts? Wrestling trivia. And one of those two guys is a major NASCAR fan.

I know lots of self described libs. Lots of those same people love country music, NASCAR, wrestling and many other things that people on the right keep claiming the "liberal elites" hate. That statement ranked right up there with people claiming that all conservatives hate the arts, culture or PBS. Too broad a brush stroke.

Jerry C, you may have said this before and I just forgot it. Hell, it may be here in this thread and I forgot it! My head is like a steel sieve these days.

Are you a cop?

If so, God Bless You.

Not to far from where I live, a state trooper was murdered. They caught the bastard that killed him, but that won't bring back the trooper.

So, if you are a cop, thanks for your service, and for God's sake, man, stay safe.

Sean Scullion: "Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess."

We're using Cerebro on you. :)

"Y'know, Dan, I remember how you said that you showed up here apparently to provide laughs. Just for the record, the only thing you've ever said that I considered remotely funny was the whining e-mail you sent me claiming I'd been censoring you, and how everyone was being mean to you, and how you were packing up and leaving because you could take a hint...when all that was happening was that your posts were being caught in the spam filter.

I laughed at that."

Hmmm, publically called on the carpet for a personal email...

Well, I guess youy told me off, didn't you, big man?

I applaud you on your defeat of such a callous, base villain. Maybe you'll get a story out of it.

"Oh, bravo, Dan. You caught Luigi in a rare gaffe. You must feel like quite the man now.

YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.

It's easy to make a mistake in a blog posting, by the way. Luigi may have begun by writing "Education and such-and-such...", decided to edit himself, and merely forgot to change the "are" to "is." Luigi is probably too busy to edit his posts as carefully as he might edit, say, a business correspondence.

Dan, you're being a complete and utter PRICK. THIS is why so many people are being "mean" to you. In one of your posts, you told me I had brought your wrath upon myself, as though that wrath meant a damn thing to me. It doesn't. But the fact that you cried like a baby to Peter about how most of us DON'T LIKE YOU A DAMN BIT demonstrates that YOU care about THAT.

Well, Dan, YOU brought THAT upon YOURself."
----------------------------------------
Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

"I applaud you on your defeat of such a callous, base villain. Maybe you'll get a story out of it."

Awww, but Dan...you're such a funny guy! At least that's what you've been claiming. Certainly you can appreciate the humor, right? Right?

The fact is that at least half a dozen posters have had their messages rejected or been unable to post at various times because (unbeknownst to them) of spam filters, and every single one has written to me and said, basically, "Hey, what's up with this? What did I say that was inflammatory?" Only you, the King of Comedy, flashed his stigmata, complained how ill treated you were, accused me of censorship and then went fetal...and never even bothered to apologize for your accusations when they were proven wrong.

I'm saying that claiming hey, you're just goofing around, while at the same time calling people names and then claiming you're being ill-used when your attitudes cause you to be dismissed out of hand, is not a good mix. What you think of as humor or even expressing a differing opinion comes across as mere petulance. So if people treat you with the same weight they'd give a ten year old banging on kitchen pots to get attention, you'll understand why. Or, more likely, you won't. You'll just feel you're misunderstood and mean old Peter David and his drones beat down someone who disagreed with them. If it's of any consolation, I'm sure you're not alone. Trolls tend to come and go here; the people of real consequence, even those I disagree with, tend to hang around and contribute.

Where you fall in that category is up to you. But you may want to consider dropping the martyr bit. It doesn't really play well.

PAD

Dan Nakagawa: You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense. If you don't like someone or something, what's wrong with simply saying 'I don't like _____." Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?
Luigi Novi: Because this discussion is about how society denigrates intelligence and education as an important quality, not about how we “don’t like” people or use intelligence to measure “worth”. If anything, this discussion has been how others measure the human worth of others—negatively—who are intelligent.

Dan Nakagawa: Luigi, I'm sorry, but that's just misleading---you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush "he got into the schools he attended because of family connections"--you can't prove that and you know it.
Luigi Novi: Um, wrong.

It is well-documented that Bush got into Yale on a “legacy admission”, because he was the son and grandson of an alumnus. (Source: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/)

Finding a source via Google took me just a few minutes.

Apparently, making an unwarranted assumption without doing some double-checking on it yourself took you none.

But hey, thanks for helping to illustrate the point of this thread so vividly. :-)

Dan Nakagawa: what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you're not going to use the information that you've read about?
Luigi Novi: I don’t know. Do you know of anyone for whom this description fits?

Even if you could, I would say that education is its own virtue.

Dan Nakagawa: And what does speaking ability have to do with anything?
Luigi Novi: If you want to sequester yourself in a cabin in the woods away from anyone else? Nothing.

But if you want to communicate with the other people on this planet? Lots.

Dan Nakagawa: Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
Luigi Novi: No, that’s your statement, not mine.

Criticism of the denigration of the importance of learning how to communicate properly is not called into question by using the example of someone who barely can speak unaided. Your example, therefore, it not applicable to this thesis.

Dan Nakagawa: And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know 'what you mean.'
Luigi Novi: Then why ask me such a stupid rhetorical question?

Dan Nakagawa: I simply don't like it...
Luigi Novi: Life’s tough. Wear a cup.

Dan Nakagawa: And while we are on the subject of intelligence:

"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural.
Luigi Novi: Thanks for the correction. And as soon as you can illustrate how intelligence and making occasional mistakes are somehow mutually exclusive—if that was indeed your intent—again, let me know.

Everyone here makes mistakes of syntax, grammar or spelling from time to time, even Peter. Would you like us to start keeping tabs on your writings?

Eric: Um, that'd be PAD's…
Luigi Novi: Sorry, I forgot about that comment in Peter’s blog entry, and merely used my browser’s Find feature to look for the words “Gore” and “Kerry.” Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Bill Myers: YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.
Luigi Novi: Stop it. You’re making me blush. :-)

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 16, 2006 09:09 AM

Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

Dan, I'm going to echo what Peter has already said.

Now that you've failed to cow us with your "scary intellect" (thanks, Mulligan, for that phrase -- I like it), you're going to play for sympathy, I take it.

GROW the FUCK UP, Dan.

We are human beings with FEELINGS. You came in here and insulted us. You did your best to alienate most of the people here, and now you're SURPRISED when your efforts to alienate people have actually, y'know, ALIENATED PEOPLE?

As Bill Mulligan told you, just saying something isn't enough to make it so. We have not mistreated you, and no matter how many times you say it, it won't become true. YOU have in fact mistreated US.

Look, Dan, I used to be as socially retarded as you are now. I used to act familiar with people when I hadn't earned the right. Difference between you and I is that I learned my lesson.

The people here have given you second chances. Hell, even after you insulted me worse than you insulted anyone else here, even after you LIED about me, I tried to reach out to you again. Others have done the same. And you keep making the same stupid fucking mistakes.

You don't want to change. I get that. The problem is, the world is not obligated to accommodate you. If you want to keep doing the same stupid things over and over again, fine. But quit whining about the inevitable consequences.

Even after all of this, Danny, I think I speak for more people than just myself when I say we would still be willing to give you another chance. Just STOP ACTING LIKE A PRICK. It won't cost you a goddamn thing, and you'll gain more than you realize.

But if you're so scared of changing, so stubbornly unable to admit that you just may be wrong sometimes just as every human being is sometimes wrong, well, fine. Take a walk if you wish.

But you brought this on yourself. And the ONLY person who has been acting with arrogance is YOU.

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 16, 2006 09:09 AM

Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

Dan, I'm going to echo what Peter has already said.

Now that you've failed to cow us with your "scary intellect" (thanks, Mulligan, for that phrase -- I like it), you're going to play for sympathy, I take it.

Grow up, Dan.

We are human beings with feelings. You came in here and insulted us. You did your best to alienate most of the people here, and now you're surprised when your efforts to alienate people have actually, y'know, alienated people?

As Bill Mulligan told you, just saying something isn't enough to make it so. We have not mistreated you, and no matter how many times you say it, it won't become true. You have in fact mistreated us.

Look, Dan, I used to be as socially awkward as you are now. I used to act familiar with people when I hadn't earned the right. Difference between you and I is that I learned my lesson.

The people here have given you second chances. Hell, even after you insulted me worse than you insulted anyone else here, even after you lied about me, I tried to reach out to you again. Others have done the same. And you keep making the same stupid mistakes.

You don't want to change. I get that. The problem is, the world is not obligated to accommodate you. If you want to keep doing the same stupid things over and over again, fine. But quit whining about the inevitable consequences.

Even after all of this, Danny, I think I speak for more people than just myself when I say we would still be willing to give you another chance. Just stop acting like a prick. It won't cost you a goddamn thing, and you'll gain more than you realize.

But if you're so scared of changing, so stubbornly unable to admit that you just may be wrong sometimes just as every human being is sometimes wrong, well, fine. Take a walk if you wish.

But you brought this on yourself. And the only person who has been acting with arrogance is you.

I know lots of self described libs. Lots of those same people love country music, NASCAR, wrestling and many other things that people on the right keep claiming the "liberal elites" hate. That statement ranked right up there with people claiming that all conservatives hate the arts, culture or PBS. Too broad a brush stroke.

Two friends of mine, who are WAYYYY to the left of me, hell, probably to the left of PAD, are HUGE racing fans. Looks like cars going in a circle to me but when they describe it I wish I had the same love for it. That's the way things are. I knew someone who made most Mensa members look like Nancy Pelosi and she collected porcelin frogs. And you never wanted to get her started on porcelin frogs.

As for wrestling...to paraphrase William Gaines, it would be just as difficult to explain the appeal of pro-wrestling to those who hate it as it would be to explain the sublimity of love to a frigid old maid.

“I am twice the man you are, and have half the brain!” - Sid Vicious

Bill Mulligan,

You know you're going to have people clawing their brains out because they can't remember where that quote is in any of The Sex Pistols' work.

:)

Bill Myers,

Thanks for the kind words and concern.

Dan,

Chill out, take stock, stop digging the hole deeper and start over. Your family seems to have had a hell of a time and you seem to have learned a few things from that and developed a POV that some others may not have because of it. It might be nice to have that POV in some debates. Why junk all that because you can't just pull back a bit and rethink your approach a bit?

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

A particularly pointed joke for Atlantans - like many bits on "WKRP", it actually happened here at (i think) WSB, where the "WKRP" creator was Program Director. (The teevee version is somewhat exaggerated, of course.)
According to Gordon Jump (who was a one-day guest lecturer at a course I once took on voiceovers), the turkey incident happened after that particular Program Director wound up in Dallas. Apparently, he'd lost his job in Atlanta after an incident involving dancing ducklings for Easter (it was a window display downtown - it seems the ducklings didn't actually want to dance, so in order to encourage them, he installed a hotplate in the floor of their cage...).

Mr. Jump did say that the character of Arthur Carlson was pretty closely modeled on that Program Director, whom he did not name for legal reasons.

I knew someone who made most Mensa members look like Nancy Pelosi and she collected porcelin frogs. And you never wanted to get her started on porcelin frogs.
Sounds like she might have been (like me) an Aspie - a person with Asperger's Syndrome (not "suffering from" - as I've observed before, it's mostly the people around me who suffer from my Asperger's, especially if they ask me a detailed question about the works of Robert Heinlein...). Porcelain frogs were her an area of perseveration for her. (Was she also socially awkward, with little understanding of the niceties of face-to-face conversation, and a tendency to look away from your face during conversation? Did she have no noticeable sense of style in her dress? Did her conversation seem a bit stilted, using a rather advanced vocabulary no matter the topic?)

Dan Nakasaki said: "You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth."

Nobody here said anything about 'intellect and using it as a measure of human worth'. We all just happen to think that Bush us pretty useless, and that he is pretty stupid, too. In a properly aligned universe, he would be washing cars for a living or working at Wal-mart as a greeter.

And: "To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense."

'intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same' sounds like Liberal claptrap to me.

Mike Weber posted---
"Suppose you were an idiot.

"Now suppose you were a Congressman.

"But I repeat myself."

-Mark Twain
-------

Thanks, Mike, I needed a laugh.

B said:

"I realize that this was said a million comments ago but implying that NASCAR, Pro-wrestling, and country music are signs of stupidity IS a sign of stupidity or, more likely, mean-spiritedness and ignorance."

B, Peter David said, "...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing." I was responding to the idea that many people are anti-intellectual. Perhaps I could have stated my point better. I stick to my guns in stating that the huge popularity of NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country music are all examples of the general populace embracing anti-intellectual pursuits.

And speaking of NASCAR, I correlate the immense interest in NASCAR with the ever increasing number of reported cases of Road Rage. The average viewer of NASCAR is just following the examples of their heroes-on-wheels in taking out their aggressions on other drivers.

Dan Nakagawa---

Which "Dan Nakagawa" are you? The musician? The second rate actor? The Aikido student (who is 46 years old and lived in Japan)?

Mike Weber posted:

"Over the life of the agreement, the monthly pension benefit will increase $47.45 to $51.65 per year of credited service"

"Okay. accept the lower (current) as typical of the industry (and it is). Assume thirty years of service.

30 x $47.45 x 12 = $17000 plus."

"A lot of autoworkers (like most unionised industrial workers) tend to spend their entire career at one company, which means more like forty or even fifty years (start at 18, work till 67). So he starts at age 20, works till he's 65, and gets the higher rate:

45 x $51.65 x 12 = $27891

Hardly $15000"

Okay. $17,000 was close to what I said ($15,000), but you can't assume that people work for 45 years at a major auto company any more. Too many are losing their jobs and too many plants are closing.

What was true about the auto industry 10 years ago is no longer true today. It's call a paradigm shift, and it is going to be truly ugly for auto workers.

Also, the vast majority of autoworkers are only too pleased to stop working when they have their 30 years in.

Many auto workers at Ford just got notified that their plants are going to close. Buyouts will be offered, but some of the buyouts include the provision that ALL benefits will be terminated. This includes retirement benefits and insurance benefits.

The main point was that the Middle Class is shrinking and will continue to shrink for those without a degree or profession.

"I stick to my guns in stating that the huge popularity of NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country music are all examples of the general populace embracing anti-intellectual pursuits."

Then they get the high honor of being held in the same distinguished company as boxing, football, rock and roll, comic books, horror movies and William Shakespeare amongst other things as social critics’ examples of the signs of the dumbing down of the masses through the ages.

What a crock. The only thing that their popularity shows is that there are a number of people who have a tickle in their fancy that’s different then yours.

“I correlate the immense interest in NASCAR with the ever increasing number of reported cases of Road Rage.”

And, in the interest of advancing intellectualism, you’ve used what scientific methods to come to this conclusion? Was it the stunningly professional technique of looking at two separate things you dislike and lumping them together to insult people with tastes other then your own? Was it the Seduction of the Innocent technique by chance? Knew somebody who committed road rage who liked NASCAR so, presto quicko, NASCAR creates road rage? Was it some other gumball machine technique? Do tell.

Please…

"I stick to my guns in stating that the huge popularity of NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country music are all examples of the general populace embracing anti-intellectual pursuits."

As opposed to 9/10's of TV shows, most comic books, some of the best movies ever, most music, fitness clubs, any sports, camping, many hobbies, etc etc...

I have no doubt that you must spend all your free time writing operas, and solving advanced math equations but cutthe rest of us some slack.

And I'm not so sure that "anti-intellectual" is the proper term. "Non-intellectual" perhaps. Just because a thing isn't something else doesn't mean that it must automatically be in opposition to it.

If you're using Cerebro on me, you must have the gain turned WAY up.

I don't think NASCAR, country music, Eminem, or whatever shows a lack of intelligence, or non-intellectualism or whatever OTHER euphemism for stupidity that can be invented. Different people get excited by different things. And something to remember about all these "reality" shows or "news" shows(sorry, right now I'm watching Debra LaFave's interview with Matt Lauer on one of my 30 screens(I'm at work)) TV doesn't show the Common Man. If ti did, who would watch? TV shows the Unusual, the Out of place, there's a definate freak show element about most of it. TV either shows the Best or the Worst of people. More often the Worst. Do I think most people aren't smart? No. Do I think most people could stand to get out of their self-created boxes and experience a little more life? Yes. Life is there for the living. But most people don't have access to some of these things, so TV tries to give them a view of a different situation. Trouble is, a LOT of people look at CNN, Fox News, Dateline, Entertainment Tonight and Jerry Springer and think "Hey! THat's how the whole world is!" Why is NASCAR popular? Damned if I know, but it's different from the routine life of most people,except for the ones that drive on the Jersey Turnpike. People are curious, they want to see new things, pop culture provides that. Hey, that's why Mr. Jennings could get a book deal, he did something unusual. We all love the Freaks. We just may not want to be them. Maybe that's why there's a bias, or a perceived bias, or whatever you want to call it, against the really smart people.

I really didn't mean for this to sound that preachy. Sorry, everybody.

thinking it over, there's something about PAD's line "that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing." that strikes me as too simplistic. Ignore the question of whether or not Bush is "intellecually stunted" or whether or not Kerry was smarter. Voting for the less intelligent candidate or voting against an intelligent one does not equal antipathy toward intellect.

Because if it does, then those who voted against Robert Bork for the Supreme court would be guilty of obvious "antipathy toward intellect."

I'm sure it would make Judge Bork feel good to believe that those who opposed him did so out of jealousy of his intellect...but he's probably smart enough to know it isn't true.

"Because if it does, then those who voted against Robert Bork for the Supreme court would be guilty of obvious "antipathy toward intellect.""

Not really. Not when you look at some of the statements people gave at the time of the voting.

A lot of people who were against Bork said that they were because they felt he was vile, wrong for the job, bad for the nation, etc. Many in the pro Bork camp said he was the best choice for the job.

A lot of people who were against Bush said that they were because they felt that he was vile, wrong for the job, a dunce, bad for the nation, etc. Many in the pro Bush camp said that they were voting for him because he was a regular guy, someone you could have a drink with, not a nerd or policy wonk like his predecessor. Very few Bush backers raved about what a towering intellect or great mind Bush was. That actually seemed to be a strong part of his appeal with some groups.

Different things entirely.

Bill Mulligan -- I have to agree with Jerry C. Everyone I know who supported George W. Bush told me some variation of the following: "Yeah, well, at least with Bush you know what you're getting."

People were actually enchanted with Bush's simple-mindedness. It was comfortable. Seeing the world through his eyes eliminated the daunting complexities of reality and reduced life to some simple "yes or no" choices.

Unfortunately, we've seen the consequences of following a man who has the certainty that can only come from stupidity. Bush cannot correct course. He cannot adjust his worldview to accommodate new information. He cannot acknowledge when he is wrong.

John Kerry was a horrible candidate and some percentage of the people who voted for Bush were no doubt reacting to that. But part of Kerry's lack of appeal was that he saw the world with all of its subtle complexities and nuances. Unfortunately, as a result the man couldn't articulate a clear vision.

The best leaders are people who have both the intellect of a John Kerry and the decisiveness of a George W. Bush. I hope we find one in 2008 because we really need one!

Bill (Mulligan),

Although I understand your reaction based on Peter's use of the phrase "intellectually stunted", I don't think it's a question of Bush's intelligence per se -- while I'm hard pressed at the moment to think of a previous president who rivals this one for intense public stupidity, that's not the be-all and end-all of qualifications.

The problem with Bush is that he actively *embraces* stupidity and single-mindedness. The very idea that an ability to consider different points of view is a negative in this administration speaks volumes about how little they give a flying clusterfuck for any process that requires actual reason.

Nobody can know everything, and nobody should try (at least not to the point of obsession). Good presidents surround themselves with people who can challenge them and make sure that their decisions have weighed all options and ramifications. Bush has surrounded himself with people who think exactly as he does and will not create any internal debate more than "the latest policy decision: heroic, statesmanlike, or godly?"

And for the American people to embrace THAT, in my opinion, truly IS anti-intellectual.

A quote from the Stan Lee Spidey era that I've used before has Robbie musing about Jonah. "God save us from a man who knows all he needs to know ... about anything." It's loomed large in my mind for much of the last five and a half years.

TWL

Bush thinks like a computer.

Bill Myers pointed this out, with Bush it's either yes or no. On or off. Binary thinking. You're with him, or you're not. A computer can only process the information that it has, yes or no, on or off. There is no third option. I never noticed that before. A lot of his camp are like that, too. Yes or no, on or off, good or bad. Bush is a color blind computer. Black or white, no grey between.

Dan Nakagawa: You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense. If you don't like someone or something, what's wrong with simply saying 'I don't like _____." Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?
Luigi Novi: Because this discussion is about how society denigrates intelligence and education as an important quality, not about how we “don’t like” people or use intelligence to measure “worth”. If anything, this discussion has been how others measure the human worth of others—negatively—who are intelligent.

Dan Nakagawa: Luigi, I'm sorry, but that's just misleading---you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush "he got into the schools he attended because of family connections"--you can't prove that and you know it.
Luigi Novi: Um, wrong.

It is well-documented that Bush got into Yale on a “legacy admission”, because he was the son and grandson of an alumnus. (Source: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/)

Finding a source via Google took me just a few minutes.

Apparently, making an unwarranted assumption without doing some double-checking on it yourself took you none.

But hey, thanks for helping to illustrate the point of this thread so vividly. :-)

Dan Nakagawa: what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you're not going to use the information that you've read about?
Luigi Novi: I don’t know. Do you know of anyone for whom this description fits?

Even if you could, I would say that education is its own virtue.

Dan Nakagawa: And what does speaking ability have to do with anything?
Luigi Novi: If you want to sequester yourself in a cabin in the woods away from anyone else? Nothing.

But if you want to communicate with the other people on this planet? Lots.

Dan Nakagawa: Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
Luigi Novi: No, that’s your statement, not mine.

Criticism of the denigration of the importance of learning how to communicate properly is not called into question by using the example of someone who barely can speak unaided. Your example, therefore, it not applicable to this thesis.

Dan Nakagawa: And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know 'what you mean.'
Luigi Novi: Then why ask me such a stupid rhetorical question?

Dan Nakagawa: I simply don't like it...
Luigi Novi: Life’s tough. Wear a cup.

Dan Nakagawa: And while we are on the subject of intelligence:

"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural.
Luigi Novi: Thanks for the correction. And as soon as you can illustrate how intelligence and making occasional mistakes are somehow mutually exclusive—if that was indeed your intent—again, let me know.

Everyone here makes mistakes of syntax, grammar or spelling from time to time, even Peter. Would you like us to start keeping tabs on your writings?

Eric: Um, that'd be PAD's…
Luigi Novi: Sorry, I forgot about that comment in Peter’s blog entry, and merely used my browser’s Find feature to look for the words “Gore” and “Kerry.” Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Bill Myers: YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.
Luigi Novi: Stop it. You’re making me blush. :-)

I get what you all are saying but I'm not sure that a lot of this isn't based more on anecdote than reality.

I believe that many of the people you know who say they voted for Bush say they did so because he seemed like a regular guy. Please believe me when I tell you that NONE of the folks I've talked to ever brought up anything like that. It may be that Republicans in your area are more shallow than they are in North Carolina.

When voters in 2004 were asked what the most important issues were, they said stuff like National Security, the economy, etc. Now, maybe they weren't offered the option of saying "the guy they thought was more down to earth and not some hoity toity book learning egg head", I don't know. I'm only saying that the one poll that supposedly showed that people were more likely to want to share a beer with Bush than with Kerry tells us nothing about their attitudes toward intelligence. Maybe it tells us that Kerry came off as an ass. Maybe they misunderstood the question and thought they were being offered some Busch Beer. It's all a slender thread on which to hang major conclusions.

But part of Kerry's lack of appeal was that he saw the world with all of its subtle complexities and nuances. Unfortunately, as a result the man couldn't articulate a clear vision.,/i>

That may be true, Bill. It may also be true that his inability to articulate a clear vision was due not to an overabundance of intellect but a deficiency in same. Regardless, it's a fatal flaw in a candidate. Who nominated this guy?

Jerry--I didn't see too many people on either side bragging about what great think tank material either candidate was. Most of the commentary I saw from Kerry supporters consisted of agonized queries as to why he was running such a poor campaign. I can say without any fear of being wrong that if Tim Lynch had been in charge of the Kerry campaign and had the candidate actually followed his advice (which may be even less likely than the first condition), he would be President Kerry today.

(I know, Tim, that's damning with faint praise indeed, but it's praise nonetheless.)

Maybe I'm naive and I know what I'm going to say goes against the general attitude that Things Are Getting Ever Worse but I think people are MORE informed today than they have been! How's them apples?

In the last few days I've had very good conversations about chemistry with the woman who cut my hair; South American politics and geology with the parents of two of my students, a GREAT conversation on nanotechnology with a kid who normally has trouble keeping his shoes tied, an argument on Roman battle techniques with a co-worker, etc. Maybe people watch too much TV but there's some great shit on TV if you watch the right channels. Wikipedia, google, 24 news channels, it's easier than ever to get information. And people are. Talk to them.

Yeah, kids listen to crappy music. As they ever have. But they are also listening to stuff that the radio stations would never ever play. They aren't doomed to follow the crowd in music tastes. Kids are making movies and editing them on computers. They're making music and selling the CDs. I have a student taking my class for the third time--NOT in the running for Valedictorian--but he can design a webpage with flash animation that will blow you away.

People can disagree with you on all kinds of things, especially politics, religion, ethics, things like that. But it's a real mistake to underestimate their intelligence or assume that anything they do is motivated by some antipathy toward thinking. It IS possible for someone to have the same facts you do and reach an entirely different conclusion, especially in something as subjective as politics.

Second, if your wife's doctor is a guy, pull him aside before the delivery and make sure that under NO circumstances should he deliver the baby, look at you, and tell you that you do good work. If Stace hadn't been pretty much numb from the neck down with various organs out of their normal places, both me and that doctor would either be dead or falsettoes.

Good advice. Here's another one. If the doctor offers you the opportunity to cut the umbilical cord, refuse it. Hey, I'M not the one getting paid for this. I can see two possible scenarios here, neither good.

SCENARIO #1- The baby deflates like a balloon and zips around the room. I die of a heart attack.

SCENARIO #2- It's 10 years later. My daughter Melissa enters the room.
Melissa- "Hey Mom, where did I get this disfiguring scar?"
My Ex-Wife- "Ask you father, the surgeon."

Good advice. Here's another one. If the doctor offers you the opportunity to cut the umbilical cord, refuse it.

In all seriousness, though, I did it, and it's a fairly nice way to have some actual active role to play in the whole process. One potentially useful observation, though. That thing is tougher than it looks. Gotta not be squeamish and give those scissors a good squeeze if you want to make it all the way through in one cut. ;)

-Rex Hondo-

Scenario #1 makes me think of the Night Court episode with an, ahem, adult inflatable, a helium tank, over-inflation and Harry Anderson's high pitched response:
"Well, she certainly is an active girl...."

I remember way too much crap.

Of course, you realize now someone is going to convince your wife to let them bring in a balloon just to see the look on your face, don't you?

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

I get what you all are saying but I'm not sure that a lot of this isn't based more on anecdote than reality.

Bill, I am the biggest proponent of using statistical evidence rather than anecdotal. But anecdotal evidence is not inherently false, it's just not enough to prove something true.

That said, upon reflection I realized that I overgeneralized. I believe a certain percentage of voters liked Bush's "moral clarity," based on conversations I had with people who voted for him in 2004.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

I believe that many of the people you know who say they voted for Bush say they did so because he seemed like a regular guy. Please believe me when I tell you that NONE of the folks I've talked to ever brought up anything like that. It may be that Republicans in your area are more shallow than they are in North Carolina.

Can't speak for the other posters, but when I heard people talk about Bush's "moral clarity" and "decisiveness," I didn't equate that with "regular guy." I thought they were responding to the very simple worldview Bush espouses.

I know many conservatives who feel that acknowledging shades of gray in the realm of morality is tantamount to lacking moral backbone. Thus, they found Bush's apparent decisiveness refreshing. I disagree with that viewpoint, but I don't consider it "shallow."

I think many people who responded to Bush's "moral clarity," however, have now realized that Bush is more stubborn than anything. And I know many people who voted for Bush merely because they thought he was the lesser of two evils.

Again, I'll admit my earlier statements were too broad, perhaps verging on stereotyping. Although you, as a conservative, Bill, are not supposed to be complaining about stereotyping.

(A joke, Mulligan! It was just a joke!)

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

When voters in 2004 were asked what the most important issues were, they said stuff like National Security, the economy, etc. Now, maybe they weren't offered the option of saying "the guy they thought was more down to earth and not some hoity toity book learning egg head", I don't know. I'm only saying that the one poll that supposedly showed that people were more likely to want to share a beer with Bush than with Kerry tells us nothing about their attitudes toward intelligence. Maybe it tells us that Kerry came off as an ass. Maybe they misunderstood the question and thought they were being offered some Busch Beer. It's all a slender thread on which to hang major conclusions.

I'm not too confident in any of the polls surrounding the 2004 elections, particularly the exit polls. As I recall, there were a number of voters who responded that "values" weighed heavily in their decision, and the media pounced all over that like flies on shit. But it turned out that the question was worded rather vaguely and the answers were of little value (please pardon the unintentional pun).

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

That may be true, Bill. It may also be true that his inability to articulate a clear vision was due not to an overabundance of intellect but a deficiency in same. Regardless, it's a fatal flaw in a candidate. Who nominated this guy?

What's that question supposed to mean? I helped nominate him with my vote, and I don't apologize for it. The field of would-be nominees sucked pretty badly. Howard Dean's thinking is as simplistic as George W. Bush's, they're just on opposite sides of the ideological fence. And John Edwards' lack of experience weighed heavily in my decision not to vote for him.

I mean, if we're gonna play this game, we can ask, "Who nominated Bush in 2000?" The Republicans turned their nose up at John McCain, a far superior candidate to Bush for crying out loud.

The point I'm trying to make, my friend, is that both parties have really crapped the bed in recent years when it comes to fielding candidates. I don't think Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, liberals, or crackpots like me have any cause to brag these days.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

Maybe I'm naive and I know what I'm going to say goes against the general attitude that Things Are Getting Ever Worse but I think people are MORE informed today than they have been! How's them apples?

In the last few days I've had very good conversations about chemistry with the woman who cut my hair; South American politics and geology with the parents of two of my students, a GREAT conversation on nanotechnology with a kid who normally has trouble keeping his shoes tied, an argument on Roman battle techniques with a co-worker, etc. Maybe people watch too much TV but there's some great shit on TV if you watch the right channels. Wikipedia, google, 24 news channels, it's easier than ever to get information. And people are. Talk to them.

Bill, you've chided us for relying overly much on anecdotal evidence, but isn't your evidence now equally anecdotal? You're one of the most intelligent people I know. It's entirely possible that without knowing it you're gravitating towards the most intelligent people you know (even if that's a relative concept at times) and vice versa, and that's coloring your perceptions.

I still get e-mails from people at work who have fallen for some hoax because, y'know, they saw it on the Internet. In fact, I'd say our society has access to more information than ever but is less well-informed as a result. Only a select few people could afford to buy their own broadcast T.V. or radio station, but even I have my own Web site, and I can barely afford a plastic spoon (not spoons, mind you, but a single spoon). The filters that used to screen out the nonsense are no longer there, but because a computer screen looks like a T.V. screen, there are people out there willing to take whatever they find on that screen to be Gospel.

Worse, I think we are overloaded with acontextual information. We know a lot of things but don't always know what they mean.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 10:57 PM

People can disagree with you on all kinds of things, especially politics, religion, ethics, things like that. But it's a real mistake to underestimate their intelligence or assume that anything they do is motivated by some antipathy toward thinking. It IS possible for someone to have the same facts you do and reach an entirely different conclusion, especially in something as subjective as politics.

Bill, I will admit that my prior post was an overgeneralization. There were many reasons why people voted for Bush. Some people thought he was the bee's knees, others merely thought he was the lesser of two evils, and there are a host of other reasons as well. So I apologize if I overstated my case and came off as insulting. At the same time, you should know by now that I do NOT assume people are stupid for disagreeing with me. I've been persuaded to change my mind on occasion by people here in this blog, yourself included.

Nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that there was a certain percentage of voters that responded to Bush's simplistic view of the world, and mistook his stubborness for moral clarity.

The Republicans turned their nose up at John McCain, a far superior candidate to Bush for crying out loud.

Touche' Of course, we might get a chance to rectify that mistake.

Bill, you've chided us for relying overly much on anecdotal evidence, but isn't your evidence now equally anecdotal

Sure, that's quite true. But I think my evidence supports the idea the great increase in information outthere is having an effect.

Let's face it SOMEBODY must be watching the history channel. Ditto Discovery Channel, national Geographic channel, Playboy channel, all the good documentary channels out there. More people have been exposed to the classic movies than could have been before. If you wanted to see a Polish movie in 1979 you had better live in NYC or Poland. Now I can get it on netflix or Blockbuster.

There's no way people can be less informed now with all the 24 hour news channels and international newspapers on the web than they were back when their main source of info was whatever 25 minutes of news the Networks chose to show, is there?

Not to mention the fact that when people talk about how bad education is compared to the good old days they tend to forget that it was perfectly legal back then to not educate huge swaths of the population.

We may be surrounded by news, it may be harder for people to come to a consensus but I really believe we are better informed than before. I don't know if that can be proven though.

Oh hey, Austin City Limits is showing The Pixies in concert! Booyah! THIS IS THE FREAKING GOLDEN AGE MY FRIENDS! Gotta go!!

Speaking of the news channels, I just watched parts of a show on CNN with a bunch of panelists(Miles O'Brien, Stephen A. Smith, Jay Thomas, and a psychologist and a talk radio host from Georgia, and they all said the media was over-saturated with news. I don't necessarily think so, but one thing that all the news channels or news shows lack is a What The Hell This Means To You segment. You get all this information thrown at you, but not why it happened(usually) or what effect it might have on, well, anything. To watch any news show, you could think that any of these events take place in a vacuum. Life doesn't happen in a vaccuum. Everything that happens either causes something to happen or affects something.

More delivery room advice. Don't ask your wife if you can cut the umbilical cord with your sword. Mine, at least, didn't find that funny. She was also worried that I was serious.

It's just an amazing and apalling thing to me that a guy so manifestly evil should have made it this far.

Ted Kennedy and George Bush do have one thing in common: They're both proof that family connections can get you very far in life.

I've often wondered what he would have to do for the people of MA to vote him out, but I've long since concluded that he'll only leave the government the same way his brothers did: by dying.

That being said, the way many conservatives go on about him, you'd think he's the most powerful member of the Senate and has a lock on the '08 nomination. The fact is, he's become a joke. He's almost a living parody of the fat, corrupt politician. What was the last time you heard of him actually creating a new legislative initiative?

Den, I agree that to you and me he's a joke but he is still quite powerful. And there are those who, to my amazement, don't seem to get what he is. A few years back a writer for the Boston Globe had this jaw dropper: “If she had lived, Mary Jo Kopechne would be 62 years old. Through his tireless work as a legislator, Edward Kennedy would have brought comfort to her in her old age.”

Words fail me...

In fairness to the writer of that piece, he says it was meant as a criticism of teddy. Too subtle for me but if read from that point of view it's a pretty good line.

I believe that many of the people you know who say they voted for Bush say they did so because he seemed like a regular guy. Please believe me when I tell you that NONE of the folks I've talked to ever brought up anything like that. It may be that Republicans in your area are more shallow than they are in North Carolina.

i've never heard anyone say they voted for Bush because he was a regular guy or because he's the guy they'd like to have a beer with.

i have, however, heard lots of pundits say that that's why people voted for Bush. i suspect that a lot of people on this thread have mistaken the spin for the truth.

PAD -
and every single one has written to me

Actually, for the record, I had a post get caught in the spam filter once, and I didn't tell you about it; it just wasn't worth it at that point. :)

Sean Scullion -
Bush thinks like a computer.

This is certainly an interesting way of looking at it.

I mean, just the other day, on another forum, I read a post from a guy who has a son nearly my age saying he would "never vote for a Democrap".

Now, keeping in mind the fact that there are very few, if any, libs on this forum that would say they'd never vote for a Republican, I commented on how the neocons have effectively blinded him, because in some ways Bush is more Democrat than Clinton was.

Yet, his response? That he's known "things" since before I was born.

Wow. I mean, how do you respond to such a pointless comment like that? I ended up just giving up on him; he's a lost cause anyways if he's that damn unwavering on how he votes, and he's obviously not interested in having an intelligent debate.

Bill Mulligan -
But it's a real mistake to underestimate their intelligence or assume that anything they do is motivated by some antipathy toward thinking.

I think the fact remains that we've gotten to see Bush in action for almost 6 years now, and there certainly seems to be a lot of antipathy toward thinking from this administration.

In basic terms, Bush's position is very much "I'm right, you're not" on any issue.

Bill Mulligan -
Touche' Of course, we might get a chance to rectify that mistake.

Doubtful. I think the people behind the curtain will start pulling the same strings they did before the 2000 election, casting McCain as not being a true Republican for siding with Dems on issues (when the current President is anything but a true Republican). Those sorts of things.

Don't ask your wife if you can cut the umbilical cord with your sword.

Damn, why didn't I think of that? Of course, it's probably for the best, considering the look Mrs. Hondo gave me when I asked her en route to the hospital if she could hold off for a few hours so we could have a St. Patrick's Day baby. I believe there was a comment made about the dwindling prospects of ever making a sibling for the little Hondolet.

Of course, we laugh now since it actually happened. Mostly because we know birthday parties are always going to be a hoot! ;)

-Rex Hondo-

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at September 17, 2006 02:01 AM

Doubtful. I think the people behind the curtain will start pulling the same strings they did before the 2000 election, casting McCain as not being a true Republican for siding with Dems on issues (when the current President is anything but a true Republican). Those sorts of things.

No, not so doubtful. McCain isn't facing an opponent like George W. Bush this time around. George W. had the advantage of a huge personal warchest and having George H.W. as his father and Jeb as his brother. The Bush family is a political dynasty. They're not as visible as the Kennedys, but they're powerful. But there won't be a Bush running in '08.

Also, in 2004 McCain didn't make an attempt to reach out to the Republican party's ultra-conservative base. He's doing that this time around. That may give him the fighting chance he didn't have in '04. Granted, the problem with pandering to the party's base -- whether you're a Democrat or a Republican -- is that it can be hard to scramble back to the center in order to win the general election. But if the Democrats nominate Hillary Clinton in '08, I don't think McCain will have much to worry about.

"i have, however, heard lots of pundits say that that's why people voted for Bush. i suspect that a lot of people on this thread have mistaken the spin for the truth."

You're half right. I got stuck on dayshift (0800 to 1600 or 1700) for most of the run up to the '04 elections and for the aftermath. That means, depending on who I was working with, I got stuck with a lot of talk radio. Many, many, many long eight or nine hour days of gun nibbling joy involving Beck, Rush, O'Reilly, Liddy, locals and others.

Did I hear pundits saying the things I've referenced above? Yep. But heard caller after caller after caller make the same statements as well. I would go into the Capitol of Virginia and the state complex around it and hear that from local pols and their aids. I would pick up any number of papers and read those words in letters to the editor pages. People were saying it as well as pundits.

That's why some of those statements stuck in my brain. It shocked me to some degree to hear people, voters, saying, whether they meant to or not, that they wanted the seemingly less bright guy to win because they were tired of someone smarter then average holding the office.

"Now, maybe they weren't offered the option of saying "the guy they thought was more down to earth and not some hoity toity book learning egg head", I don't know."

I saw a lot of those polls and saw the options given for checking off. The best people were given if they didn't want to pick one of the pre-chosen hot button topics was "other".

"I didn't see too many people on either side bragging about what great think tank material either candidate was. Most of the commentary I saw from Kerry supporters consisted of agonized queries as to why he was running such a poor campaign."

Actaully, most of what I heard was agonized queries as to why he was running such a poor campaign because they felt that he was brighter then Bush. Most gripes went along the lines of complaining about the fact that he would give long, nuanced answers rather then K.I.S.S. sound bytes.

That failing got him tagged a lot by conservative critics because giving long, detailed and multi layered answers failed to offer a good sound byte for the press and they had enough room in them for the critics and Rove to pick one thing from them, pull it out of context and give Bush and Cheney their next "flip-flopper" sound byte. This was then made worse by Kerry giving another long, detailed and multi layered reason with no good sound bytes as to why what he said wasn't a flip-flop that would then be cherry picked by Rove again and used as a "flip-flopping on the flip-flop" sound byte.

Kerry had brains. He was just almost as bad as Bush, but in a different way, in his speach giving skills. That's the gripe I heard most about his campaign.

"Maybe I'm naive and I know what I'm going to say goes against the general attitude that Things Are Getting Ever Worse but I think people are MORE informed today than they have been! How's them apples?"

Red or green? Thems apples is just fine. I said waaayyyy above that I thought the attitudes on display in the election run up said more about a good chunk of the voters then it did the U.S. as a whole. I think that there are a lot of information sources out there and that many of them are being used quite a bit.

But that still doesn't change a few things about the public opinions coming from some circles, mostly conservative, these days and just after the 2000 election. Bush is a refreshing change of pace because he's just a average Joe kinda guy rather then a Brainiac. Scientists, doctors and other people with PHDs in front of their name don't really know what they're talking about because you can smash their arguments with good old "common sense" and such.

Now, I will say that I'm pretty sure that not all of those people are actually trying to be stupid. It may not even be the intelligence VS intellect argument I was making many posts ago. I wonder how many people were actually saying that they just wanted simple?

"Bush thinks like a computer.

Bill Myers pointed this out, with Bush it's either yes or no. On or off. Binary thinking. You're with him, or you're not. A computer can only process the information that it has, yes or no, on or off. There is no third option. I never noticed that before. A lot of his camp are like that, too. Yes or no, on or off, good or bad. Bush is a color blind computer. Black or white, no grey between."

Or, said in a simpler way, Bush thinks and speaks in the simplest terms.

What's the one thing most people say they want? A simple life. We like simple. People crave simple. I know I do. I like simple at home. Something broke but it's a quick fix. Fantastic. I pissed of the wife but I have enough money for really good German chocolate and a Jet Li film. Thank you, God. I love simple at work. He did it, he ain't gonna fight and I can go home on time. But I don't crave simple in my politics.

Bush's campaign was run on simple. Gore's and Kerry's wasn't. The ideas that get Bush the most support are simple ideas. They're bad, we're good and we're gonna get 'em type of stuff.

The red meat ideas that fly around the conservative base and/or some Bush backers and the most popular ideas thrown out by talking heads in the media seem to be simple as well. Saddam is bad. Take out Saddam and all the problems go away. Islam is bad. Islam hates us. Kill Islam and the problem goes away. Iran is bad. Iran wants nukes. Nuke Iran and the problems go away.

Well, while that's nice, most of us know that simple doesn't always work in the real world and trying to force simple to work in the real world can make a mess of things. We like simple but we use or intelligence and our intellect to see that from time to time we may need to put up with the less then simple in our solutions in life.

But not everybody does. "It's just common sense" may often be just saying, "I think it's this simple. Yes or no, black or white."

Are people saying they want to be dumb or be lead by dumber? I'll give a lot of people the credit to say that may not be what they're really saying. They may just want simple, easy to understand stuff out of life and their leaders. But if we fail to use our intelligence and our intellect to overcome our desire for the simple when we most need to, is it really all that different as desiring dumb or being dumb?

"No, not so doubtful. McCain isn't facing an opponent like George W. Bush this time around. George W. had the advantage of a huge personal warchest and having George H.W. as his father and Jeb as his brother. The Bush family is a political dynasty. They're not as visible as the Kennedys, but they're powerful. But there won't be a Bush running in '08."

Maybe. Maybe not. There will be no Bush in '08 but there will still be Bush's effect on things. I also think the outcome of this Novemeber and how it's seen by the powers behind the curtain could bring about the same attacks on McCain as last time.

McCain would be a change from Bush and would change at least some of the things that many Bush critics hate but Bush backers like. If the D's don't take at least one branch of Congress then the powers that be may decide that the present course is the right one for winning in '08 despite polls and reports saying that it ain't so.

If they think that they may well see McCain as a vote for change that would look, to the base, as saying that they and Bush got it wrong the last eight years. I doubt that they would admit that so McCain could be sunk again in favor of a more Bush backer-like option.

Now, if the D's make some high stakes gains this November it may be different and I would tend to agree with you more on his chances. McCain would get to come in as the GOP endorsed course correction man. He would likely be seen as the best bet against the Democrats holding all three keys to power post '08.

Guys, please stop. You're scaring me.

My wife and I are working at having our first kid (no comments please) and your stories of how much of the male brain seems to vacate the skull when exposed to a woman in labor is really freaking me out. TV shows don't even make guys look this silly (maybe the Night Court where the group of woman all went in to labor at once). I haven't got that much real grey matter to begin with. If all of it that leaves doesn't come back I could very well end up spending the rest of my life as a vegetable.

Jerry, the male brain is a problem solving organ. When things go worng we try to fix it, often with comical and/or tragic results, but fix it nonethe less. Unfortunately, a woman in labor defeats our best efforts and there's the added factor that the problem in question is one of our own making. Thus the well known phenomona of otherwise intelligent men running around like unfrozen cavemen thrust into downtown Manhattan.

As for McCain, at this point the only people who could beat him in the primary are Gulliani or Romney. But McCain is the frontrunner and, unlike Democrats, Republicans tend to go with the front runner (Democrats tend to eliminate the front runner. Carter, Clinton, Kerry, none of them were much in the polls at the start of things.)

His health would be my main worry. An ill timed heart attack or something right before the election and we get 4 years of Hillary (and 4 years of right wing paranoia that she had something to do with it).

"Bill Mulligan -- I have to agree with Jerry C. Everyone I know who supported George W. Bush told me some variation of the following: "Yeah, well, at least with Bush you know what you're getting.""

This is a country who, when its citizens go to foreign countries, like to eat in McDonalds. So I guess it's to be expected.

"My wife and I are working at having our first kid (no comments please) and your stories of how much of the male brain seems to vacate the skull when exposed to a woman in labor is really freaking me out."

I've been there for the births of all four of my daughters and my brain stayed perfectly intact all four times. I'll tell you, though, I really liked the hospital where Caroline was born. For the first three, I spent all the hours sitting in a plastic chair. With Caroline, they actually had a couch in the room, and when Kathleen was dozing and I lay down on the couch, the nurse came by and said, "You know, that folds out into a bed." That was great.

PAD

As for McCain, at this point the only people who could beat him in the primary are Gulliani or Romney.

In that case, he has a lock on the nomination, because neither one of has any chance in the GOP primaries.

I don't know, Den. Romney has been impressive. I know the Mormon thing will give him trouble and you can be sure that the media will bring it up at every opportunity (to a degree they'd never dream of doing to a Muslim) but he seems to have a good political ear and could potentially turn that into a plus. I'd move him up to second place behind McCain, mostly because Rudy doesn't seem to be working very hard at the nomination (McCain and Romney most certainly are).

People who say that Rudy or Romeny can't win the nomination may be underestimating how seriously the Republican base takes a strong stance on home security. Rudy 9/11 actions may mean a lot more than his stand on other social issues. Being pro-choice may be less of a problem if he at least promises not to use an abortion litmus test for judges.

Of course, one more attack on American soil and Rudy might vault up to the head of the track. But for now it's McCain's to lose. IMHO, of course, and keeping in mind that I usually predict these things incorrectly, not that this stops me.

Jerry C said (in reponse to my post linking NASCAR and Road Rage):

"...two separate things you dislike..."

Ah, but here you are SOOOOO wrong. I loves me some Road Rage. Practice it every time I drive. It's one of the things I do best.

Bill, if you are generally wrong in your predictions then I must ask you to stop predicting McCain's victory. I like McCain. Given that the Democrats aren't likely to field anyone worth a damn (I don't hate Hillary like so many frothing-at-the-mouth types do, but I also don't think she's presidential material), it would be nice to have a real choice in 2008.

As for McCain's ticker, I love the use of the phrase "ill-timed heart attack." I betcha McCain would tell you there is no such thing as a "well-timed heart attack" for him. :)

Posted by: Alan Coil at September 17, 2006 12:44 PM

I loves me some Road Rage. Practice it every time I drive. It's one of the things I do best.

Yeah, that's not exactly something I'd brag about, y'know?

Jerry C said:

"...gumball machine technique..."

Jerry, did you find that technique in the Kama Sutra?

---The election of 2000 v. the election of 2004---

The election was more about "stay the course" as opposed to making a change.

The election of 2000 was the one that was more about "which one I'd rather drink a beer with".

(Notice the anti-intellectual use of a preposition at the end of the sentence.)

"The election was more about "stay the course" as opposed to making a change."

True to some degree. The argument could also be made, and has been in many places, that people who were very much less then thrilled with Bush's course voted Bush because they liked Kerry's course even less. It wasn't the greatest choice of either/or for a lot of people.

But that still does not negate some of the things said in some circles of Bush backers and Kerry haters.

When an editor dared to change a sentence of Churchill's that appeared to end inappropriately with a preposition, Churchill responded by writing to the editor, "This is the kind of impertinence up with which I shall not put."

You know, I think there's something to be said for what a couple of previous posters have pointed out about the appeal of a more simplistic message. It's like that episode of Seinfeld where George talks about enjoying Kenny Banya's comedy, because you don't have to think about it too much. For better or worse, the current administration has a spectacularly effective way of boiling things down a pithy sound bite that people remember. That's why a phrase like 'Cut and run' inflicts so much damage on the Dems: they just don't have an equally pithy counterpoint, so they can stand up and say something like,'Cut and run? How about stay and die?' or something much cleverer than that. Basically you have to balance the GOP message perfectly, like two sides of an equation. And as a few people pointed out earlier, neither Gore nor Kerry were able to boil their message down to ten words or less. They're just not hard-wired that way. And to this day, it still puzzles me that there is nobody on the Democratic side of the aisle that can explain to their candidates that there's no point in giving a ten-minute, carefully constructed rebuttal when just 15 seconds of it will aire on the nightly news. No wonder Kerry always sounded a bit befuddled, whereas Bush can deliver those sound bites just fine, no doubt after rehearsing them a couple of dozen times with Rove and a few key advisors. But that said, Bush's weakness has always been when we has to move off script for any length of time, which is when his lack of verbal skills often betrays him.

Does this mean that Gore and/or Kerry are smarter than Bush. On a sheer intelligence level, I would say yes. But since Bush has been successfully getting a clear, if wrong-headed message out for half a decade, maybe you could argue that he's actually the smarter one. I know, it pains me to say it but I'm starting to think that maybe it's true.

Well, Tim's Joe Robertson quote re: Jolly Jonah had already put me in mind of a particular song; Sean's - pretty good - analogy of Bush to a computer, and mentioning seeing no gray, sealed it.

From Billy Joel's "Shades Of Grey" -
"Now with the wisdom of years
I try to reason things out
And the only people I fear
Are those who never have doubts
Save us all from arrogant men
And all the causes they're for
I won't be righteous again
I'm not that sure anymore"

You know, leaving the purely political spectrum for a moment, I wonder how much of what appears to by hostility toward knowledge is actually a fear of leaving ones' comfort zone or the desire to not let go of long held and deeply cherished beliefs.

I made the ever so slight mistake of reading Misquoting Jesus in a public area the other day. Two older middle-aged women were sitting at the table across from mine and one of the muttered, just loud enough to be heard, something about what kind of trash people buy or read these days. When I looked up and saw that she was looking at me I, being an idiot, asked her if she was talking to me.

She then went on about the type of garbage I was reading and how the so called intellectuals were ruining this country and their attacking Christianity blah, blah, blah. I pointed out that the book didn't attack Christianity, said Christianity was in fact a good thing and merely pointed out how and why some translation flaws in biblical texts had popped up over the ages. After her reply showed that she had her mind made up I smartened up and went back to my coffee and reading after moving a few tables down.

Now, was she just an O'Reilly level prick or was she genuinely, if wrongly, offended by "intellectuals" in the country trying to change what she deeply believes to be the truth?

The times that I see people most strongly hostile to knowledge or "intellectuals", outside of politics, is usually when the subject being addressed is the correction of a long held belief that is in fact wrong. Mary of the Bible wasn't a prostitute, the Founding Fathers weren't all devoted, Bible thumping Christians, they also didn't have a majority of members die broke or on the run from the British, Columbus didn't set out to prove that the world was round, Washington didn't throw his coin across the river or stand, in the much smaller boats then depicted, during the crossing, Paul Revere's ride was nothing like what most people believe and others did most the riding for him, Benedict Arnold was a great American hero who saved the Revolution at Saratoga before becoming an infamous traitor, there were black slave owners in the U.S., most of the fact based books on the Old West's gunslingers and outlaws are fiction and so on.

There is no amount of proof that you can show some people if it means that they most give up a cherished belief that they've held for a lifetime. They know its true, everybody they grew up with knew it was true and, besides, their teacher told them it was true. Those pinheaded intellectuals don't know what their talking about.

I had a History Professor who loved to teach like few people I have ever known. But he hated the first half of the school year in classes where he was dealing with first year college students. He used to say that history was traditionally one of the courses where you had to get your students to unlearn huge chunks of wrong knowledge that they had learned for years in school. He would illustrate this by starting the year out by handing out high school or junior high school history books with highlighted sections, break the class into groups and tell each group to track their historical fact back to the best source they could find. My group got a quote from Madison about the place of God in our society (I don't remember the quote). We thought that was cool as hell. Little or no work. We're in Central Virginia. The keeper of Madison's papers was, basically, right down the street. Then we found out that the quote existed nowhere in any of his papers or works. Two weeks later, the best source we had for the quote was an article in old issue of Boy's Life where the writer referenced his dad or granddad for the quote in the body of the article. Most the groups came back with weird sources like that.

He said that many K-12 books at the time, and I don't know how much it's changed in the years since, weren't put together by teachers, educators or scholars in most cases. They were simply thrown together by whatever group was put together by the printing company to do the job. Often they pulled together "history" from other books in their inventory or whatever quick sources they could find. Often they were Boy's Life types of magazines or books. Nice stuff but more full of feel good urban myths about history then actual, hard, fact based history.

Some of us thought it was cool that we were going to unlearn junk and relearn good stuff along with a foundation to check up the stuff we wanted to. But there were some students that didn't like the idea that they were being told that things they knew to be true their entire lives, however short, just wasn't so.

Why am I telling you this long and possibly dull story?

"Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess."

I'm 35. I went to schools with textbooks that still said Betsy Ross made the first U.S. flag and had historical events leading up to wars out of order or omitted entirely to create a different picture of events. I couldn't be from the last class to have had books like that. Hell, there are poorer school districts all over the country that complain about their budget and point out that their textbooks are five to ten years out of date. Look at how many more people there are in the U.S. older then my generation. A whole lot of them must have had the same type of history books. Now take into account the relatively small number of those people who had at least a year or more of college to undo some of that or who at least got bit by the bug to go out and learn as much as they could on their own.

You have a lot of people in this country who are being told that they're wrong in their lifetime's belief. Take into account that, with history, some facts about actual history don't always make the good old U.S. of A. look like it's always acting as the greatest, most loving or most benevolent and charitable of countries. Then you have people angry because the facts aren't what they know to be true and you're obviously part of that pinheaded, liberal intellectual hate America first crowd.

Now throw in knowledge being espoused about common misconceptions in science, medicine, cultural matters and religion. You, me and lots of other people are likely to think that's cool, check it out for ourselves and see if there's anything to what's being said. But a lot of people are going to be hostile to both the knowledge and the knowledge givers because it's stripping away the comfortable stability of lifelong held beliefs. That makes some people resentful or afraid. Both of those feelings are often acted upon with anger.

Then some opportunist comes along and plays pied piper. Follow me and I'll tell you comforting "truths" and protect you from those frauds and charlatans that want to attack with their lies the foundations of life we hold so dear. Come with me and I'll help you fight back. People are going to gravitate to what they want to hear as often, if not more often, then they will towards something that they don't want to hear.

Is that an explanation for everyone's apparent "hostility" towards knowledge? No. I've known jocks and GQ types who boast that they didn't read (the word being said in the most insulting manner they could muster) because they were cool and reading was for nerds. They're just morons. But it is a thought, an extremely long winded thought, on maybe why so many people will so willing sign up with the mob that's standing against whatever knowledge or intellectual is the target of the week of the pied piper of the moment. They may not actually hate the knowledge itself. They may just not want to give up the security of the familiar and what they "know" to be "right".

And it'll take a better man then me to figure out a solution for that kind thing.

Rudy and Romney are doomed because because the Christian fundamentalists vote in the GOP primaries in overwhelming numbers. That's why McCain is busy sucking up to them right now. He doesn't want another phone campaign accusing him of fathering an illegitimate black child.

To be honest, Bill, I don't think national security is going to be a factor in the primary, but most GOP primary voters consider any republican to be better than any democrat on security. It'll only be an issue in the general election.

I had to stifle a laugh when I read Peter's McDonald's in foreign countries line. See, I have a beloved picture of Stacie kissing a Wendy's sign in St. Thomas. Now, under NORMAL circumstances, we never would've thought about it, but she was REALLY hung over, and all the rich food on the ship we were on was a little too much for her.

And you had a couch for Caroline's delivery? Eesh, we barely had a doctor for Brian's!

Jerry made me think of something that happened when I was a senior in high school. While I was still in my history class, my teacher talked about how Americans blamed Jews for the death of Jesus before WWII, and how the war just made them stop saying it. Now, my sainted mother, who was around 10 years old when the war broke out, had a thing or two to say about that. He doesn't teach it that way anymore. I don't think most people can seperate the FACTS of history with their own INTERPRETATION of said facts, regardless of what the texts say. And, since most people are taught that way, and hardly any do anything further with history once they're out of school, that's what they continue to believe. If they remember it at all.

I had to stifle a laugh when I read Peter's McDonald's in foreign countries line.

I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cringe.

When I was in New Zealand last month, we ate at a Denny's, KFC a couple of times, McDonald's, a Domino's and a Subway.

When it comes down to it, for me, eating at "American" places is as much because you actually like the food served as it is because they're familiar, or even in some cases, because it's purely a matter of convenience.

I put American in quotes because, in some cases, they really are just local joints with American names. Denny's and Domino are being prime examples - their menus were way more varied and better than here in the States.

I like eating at Subway, but even at burger joints, the food is generally healthier than what you'll get here, especially when a company like McDonald's resists changing their unhealthy cooking oil here in the US when they've changed it to a far healthier alternative in the rest of the world.

But, as I said with convenience, if you've just gotten into a town after dark, and you're only staying the night to catch a bus somewhere else in the morning, then, yeah, McDonald's will usually suffice. :)

Posted by Luke K. Walsh at September 17, 2006 02:20 PM

Sean's - pretty good - analogy of Bush to a computer, and mentioning seeing no gray, sealed it.

From Billy Joel's "Shades Of Grey"

Now with the wisdom of years
I try to reason things out
And the only people I fear
Are those who never have doubts
Save us all from arrogant men
And all the causes they're for
I won't be righteous again
I'm not that sure anymore

Even more succinctly, from Dylan:

but i was so much older then
i'm younger than that now.

Posted by Luke K. Walsh at September 17, 2006 02:20 PM

Sean's - pretty good - analogy of Bush to a computer, and mentioning seeing no gray, sealed it.

From Billy Joel's "Shades Of Grey"

Now with the wisdom of years
I try to reason things out
And the only people I fear
Are those who never have doubts
Save us all from arrogant men
And all the causes they're for
I won't be righteous again
I'm not that sure anymore

Even more succinctly, from Dylan:

but i was so much older then
i'm younger than that now.

Posted by Luke K. Walsh at September 17, 2006 02:20 PM

Sean's - pretty good - analogy of Bush to a computer, and mentioning seeing no gray, sealed it.

From Billy Joel's "Shades Of Grey"

Now with the wisdom of years
I try to reason things out
And the only people I fear
Are those who never have doubts
Save us all from arrogant men
And all the causes they're for
I won't be righteous again
I'm not that sure anymore

Even more succinctly, from Dylan:

but i was so much older then
i'm younger than that now.

Sorry to reply so late--I have a life and quite frankly, had a wonderful weekend.

"I applaud you on your defeat of such a callous, base villain. Maybe you'll get a story out of it."

Awww, but Dan...you're such a funny guy! At least that's what you've been claiming. Certainly you can appreciate the humor, right? Right?

The fact is that at least half a dozen posters have had their messages rejected or been unable to post at various times because (unbeknownst to them) of spam filters, and every single one has written to me and said, basically, "Hey, what's up with this? What did I say that was inflammatory?" Only you, the King of Comedy, flashed his stigmata, complained how ill treated you were, accused me of censorship and then went fetal...and never even bothered to apologize for your accusations when they were proven wrong.

I'm saying that claiming hey, you're just goofing around, while at the same time calling people names and then claiming you're being ill-used when your attitudes cause you to be dismissed out of hand, is not a good mix. What you think of as humor or even expressing a differing opinion comes across as mere petulance. So if people treat you with the same weight they'd give a ten year old banging on kitchen pots to get attention, you'll understand why. Or, more likely, you won't. You'll just feel you're misunderstood and mean old Peter David and his drones beat down someone who disagreed with them. If it's of any consolation, I'm sure you're not alone. Trolls tend to come and go here; the people of real consequence, even those I disagree with, tend to hang around and contribute.

Where you fall in that category is up to you. But you may want to consider dropping the martyr bit. It doesn't really play well.

PAD "

Again Mighty Zeus and his godlings speak from on high to lavish his wisdom upon mere mortals such as myself. And as usual,he knows how I will respond even before I take action.

He knows full well that as the angry mere mortal (Or Titan, as the case may be), shaking his torch-wielding fist at Olympus, that I will take the latter position...

And so Prometheus, justified in his beliefs, accepts his punishment as a MAN and daily awaits the talons of Ethon...
----------------------
To Alan Coil--RE: me as Dan Nakagawa--I could be all, I could be none...does it really matter?

"Painful is silence; everywhere is woe.
For when the high Gods fell on mood of wrath
And hot debate of mutual strife was stirred,
Some wishing to hurl Cronos from his throne,
That Zeus, forsooth, might reign; while others strove,
Eager that Zeus might never rule the Gods:
Then I, full strongly seeking to persuade
The Titans, yea, the sons of Heaven and Earth,
Failed of my purpose. Scorning subtle arts,
With counsels violent, they thought that they
By force would gain full easy mastery.
But then not once or twice my mother Themis
And earth, one form though bearing many names,

Had prophesied the future, how ’twould run,
That not by strength nor yet by violence,
But guile, should those who prospered gain the day.
And when in my words I this counsel gave,
They deigned not e’en to glance at it at all.
And then of all that offered, it seemed best
To join my mother, and of mine own will,
Not against His will, take my side with Zeus,
And by my counsels, mine, the dark deep pit
Of Tartaros the ancient Cronos holds,
Himself and his allies. Thus profiting
By me, the mighty ruler of the Gods
Repays me with these evil penalties:
For somehow this disease in sovereignty
Inheres, of never trusting to one’s friends. 15

And since ye ask me under what pretence
He thus maltreats me, I will show it you:
For soon as He upon His father’s throne
Had sat secure, forthwith to divers Gods
He divers gifts distributed, and His realm
Began to order. But of mortal men
He took no heed, but purposed utterly
To crush their race and plant another new;
And, I excepted, none dared cross His will;
But I did dare, and mortal men I freed
From passing on to Hades thunder-stricken;
And therefore am I bound beneath these woes,
Dreadful to suffer, pitiable to see:
And I, who in my pity thought of men
More than myself, have not been worthy deemed
To gain like favour, but all ruthlessly
I thus am chained, foul shame this sight to Zeus."
---Prometheus Bound, Aeschylus (525–456 B.C.)

""Bill Mulligan -- I have to agree with Jerry C. Everyone I know who supported George W. Bush told me some variation of the following: "Yeah, well, at least with Bush you know what you're getting.""

This is a country who, when its citizens go to foreign countries, like to eat in McDonalds. So I guess it's to be expected.

------------------------------------
So what? Americans eat a lot of McDonalds' food here in the USA too..Oh I GET IT!!! You're implying that Americans are so stupid that they don't even bother sampling the local cuisine!!!

Ha HA! Sarcasm! I get how its done now!!!

You have to be the owner of the blog in order for it to be FUNNY!!!!

Wow, what an education!

I tell ya, the touch of the Master's hand....

""Bill Mulligan -- I have to agree with Jerry C. Everyone I know who supported George W. Bush told me some variation of the following: "Yeah, well, at least with Bush you know what you're getting.""

This is a country who, when its citizens go to foreign countries, like to eat in McDonalds. So I guess it's to be expected.

------------------------------------
So what? Americans eat a lot of McDonalds' food here in the USA too..Oooooooh I GET IT!!! You're implying that Americans are so stupid that they don't even bother sampling the local cuisine!!!

Ha HA! Sarcasm! I get how its done now!!!

You have to be the owner of the blog in order for it to be FUNNY!!!!

Wow, what an education!

I tell ya, the touch of the Master's hand....

Before anyone says anything, yes I know it got posted twice, however Bill Myers did the same thing on this thread at on September 16 at 10:33am and 10:34am, I figured it was ok...

Oh yeah. Nice to know Dan took the advice to heart.

Dovetails nicely with Jerry's treatise on how people are reluctant to give up dearly held beliefs. In Dan's case, it's that he's a misunderstood martyr. He's now recast himself as a titan bringing mankind the fire/knowledge and being disemboweled by vultures (read: Us) for his trouble.

And into the "ignore" pile he goes...

PAD

Oy...

Oh well, at least I get to be a Godling. Cool.

Way to go, Danno! That'll show them you're not a troll!

-Rex Hondo-

I need to practice my nit-picking skills...

"He knows full well that as the angry mere mortal (Or Titan, as the case may be), shaking his torch-wielding fist at Olympus, that I will take the latter position...

And so Prometheus, justified in his beliefs, accepts his punishment as a MAN and daily awaits the talons of Ethon."

As a Titan, Promeheus isn't a mortal. He's a proto-god, if anything, and thus immortal. He did, however, create a race of mortals.

Jerry C, don't sweat the delivery thing. It's not so much that men's brains freeze up during the delivery. I think it's got more to do with the fact that there's a room full of people that deliver babies on a daily basis around you that know what they are doing, and you (the father) end up watching and not having anything to do, and now knowing what you'd do anyway even if there were something you could do. You don' freeze up so much as feel like you should be as active as everyone else in the room, but knowing that if you were to be active, you'd just mess something up.

"And so Prometheus, justified in his beliefs, accepts his punishment as a MAN and daily awaits the talons of Ethon."

As a Titan, Promeheus isn't a mortal. He's a proto-god, if anything, and thus immortal. He did, however, create a race of mortals."
------------------------------------

I know that, Bob. I meant "MAN" not in the mortal sense, but as in the expression "take it like a man."

"Oh yeah. Nice to know Dan took the advice to heart.

Dovetails nicely with Jerry's treatise on how people are reluctant to give up dearly held beliefs. In Dan's case, it's that he's a misunderstood martyr. He's now recast himself as a titan bringing mankind the fire/knowledge and being disemboweled by vultures (read: Us) for his trouble.

And into the "ignore" pile he goes...

PAD"

Actually, Ethon was an Eagle, not a vulture.

But, if the shoe fits....

(Damn shame you can't ban me, isn't it?)

"Way to go, Danno! That'll show them you're not a troll!

-Rex Hondo-"

Trolls don't read literature, much less quote it (and quote it appropriately).

"Oy...

Oh well, at least I get to be a Godling. Cool"

Yeah, like you guys would've come up with the Prometheus analogy.

Right. And you all are supposed to be creators? (well, Myers and Peter are...)

I thought creators were supposed to be creative?

Me? I'm just your dumb ol' consumer...You create the books, I buy the books, read the books, bag the books and box up the books and 20 years later I toss out the books, cuz' they ain't worth diddly-squat on E-Bay....

Investment my ass...

Dan, in the interests of fairness and accuracy, I am not a professional comic-book creator. At the moment it is a hobby I hope to turn into a career. To say that "Myers and Peter" are fellow creators is like saying a guy who plays flag football and Tom Brady are fellow athletes. Peter is a professional writer. I, at the moment, am not.

I've always made my amateur status clear whenever I've mentioned my aspirations in my postings here.

"Dan, in the interests of fairness and accuracy, I am not a professional comic-book creator. At the moment it is a hobby I hope to turn into a career. To say that "Myers and Peter" are fellow creators is like saying a guy who plays flag football and Tom Brady are fellow athletes. Peter is a professional writer. I, at the moment, am not.

I've always made my amateur status clear whenever I've mentioned my aspirations in my postings here. "

Guess your status as Godling is appropriate then...

Dan,

I've been given so many second and third chances in life that I tend to want to return the favor in my dealings with others. I'll try this one, and just one, last time.

You came in and went from zero to sixty in one post. You said a few things that were maybe not that well phrased and you used your humor in places where, not knowing you at all, some people didn't know if it was to be taken as humor or insult. People reacted badly towards the posts and you.

You said you were trying to be funny. You were just adding a bit of humor into the exchange. Some of us tried to meet you half way. I'm not going to write again everything that was posted before since I'm sure you read the posts already already. If not, look those posts up, read them and think about taking the advice. Some of us did offer the second chance olive branch.

But then you seem have gone and decided to notch it up and go from sixty to one hundred instead and try to run over us. You've also wrongly taken to seeing everything as what you view as the worst it could be. You seem to come of as wanting to take anything from the spam filter to posters comments as deeply personal as you can.

Don't, 'cause it ain't.

Again, if you're really telling the truth about just wanting to join in the fun, all you have to do is chill out, start over and maybe build back up to sixty a little more slowly. You'll have more fun that way.

"Trolls don't read literature, much less quote it (and quote it appropriately)."

If they only use it to be a pest then yes they can.

"Damn shame you can't ban me, isn't it?"

No, but if you go out of your way to be a pest towards him then he can disemvowel you.

Archives, July 2005. Got to the bottom of the page.

:)

(Damn shame you can't ban me, isn't it?)

Dan, you're laboring under a serious misconception here.

Peter can ban you. Any time he feels like it.

He chooses not to ban people except under extremely egregious circumstances.

That is a major difference, albeit one you're either going to have trouble with or ignore.

That said, if you really WANT to get banned, I'm sure you can read through past threads and figure out what sort of things will bring it about.

And "trolls don't read literature" is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a very long time. (I'd make a Fish Called Wanda reference here, but that's in another thread and I'd hate to confuse you.) Trolls, at least good ones, will assume exactly as much intelligence as they need to try to get a firestorm going.

BAD trolls don't read literature or quote it appropriately. At the moment, you're proving to be a very talented one.

But we can hear the trip-trap, trip-trap, trip-trap just the same.

TWL

""And so Prometheus, justified in his beliefs, accepts his punishment as a MAN and daily awaits the talons of Ethon."

As a Titan, Promeheus isn't a mortal. He's a proto-god, if anything, and thus immortal. He did, however, create a race of mortals."
------------------------------------

I know that, Bob. I meant "MAN" not in the mortal sense, but as in the expression "take it like a man.""

But the analogy doesn't really hold true here. Prometheus' son and wife cared from him while he was imprisoned, and defended him from Ethon until Hercules/Herakles came along and defeated Ethon. Were Prometheus really taking his punishment "like a man," he'd have gritted his teeth while his liver was chewed every day, not allowing his family to try and protect him.

At the risk of throwing another log on the fire for those-inclined-to-argue-politics, I note that the Washington Post is reporting that Al Gore is to publish a book in 2008 called "The Assault on Reason" described by editor Scott Moyers as "a meditation on how 'the public arena has grown more hostire to reason' and how solving problems such as global warming is impeded by a political culture with a pervasive 'unwillingness to let facts drive decisions.' " (http://tinyurl.com/zax47 )

To give equal time to the Republicans, I note that the October 2006 issue of Discover Magazine has an interview with Newt Gingrich in which the former Speaker of the House opines quite thoughtfully about science education and policy.

Though perhaps tangential to the topics and arguments raging on this discussion, both of these developments might give hope to those who want to think that there exist some opposing forces to whatever anti-intellectualism may be running through the culture...

To Jerry C:

I appreciate someone finally trying to be civil with me, but at the risk of once again being trollish, I must once again take to task come of the things you wrote:

"People reacted badly towards the posts and you."
--------------------
I appreciate your admitting that to me, although I am sure that other individuals on this board may take YOU to task over that sentiment.

"Some of us did offer the second chance olive branch"
-----------------------
Perhaps, but to me it looked less like an olive branh and more like the blue pill from the Matrix.
----------------------
"You seem to come of as wanting to take anything from the spam filter to posters comments as deeply personal as you can.

Don't, 'cause it ain't."
--------------------------
Really? Tell that to Bill Myers. Not only does he think I've been personally attacking him from the very beginning, but he thinks I do this to somehow gain his attention or curry his favor.

I don't know the man, nor do I care to. I've been to his website...I can count on two hands the number of people that have contributed to his blog...Chirst, I don't think I've even seen a posting on it by Peter David, and here Myers is practically Peter's number one fan (just an observation)
----------------------
"Again, if you're really telling the truth about just wanting to join in the fun, all you have to do is chill out, start over and maybe build back up to sixty a little more slowly. You'll have more fun that way."
---------------------
Maybe its my writing style. Maybe I come on a bit strong for you people. I say what I think I need to say, then I get out, with just enough verbage to get my point across. One thing I've noticed about you people is that more often than not, you seem to spend paragraphs expressing an opinion when only a few sentences are necessary (again, an observation, not a criticism.)

Its a style I've noticed in quite a few writers--my favorites--Harlan Ellison, Spider Robinson, Mike Resnick, and yes, Peter David.

I don't like to be force-fed ideas. I like for the writer to write just enough to let my imagination fill in the rest. I'm a fairly intelligent adult--don't worry, I can figure it out.
------------------------------------------
""Damn shame you can't ban me, isn't it?"

No, but if you go out of your way to be a pest towards him then he can disemvowel you."

You're saying he can force me to stop using the letters A,E,I,O,U...and sometimes Y? Wll, gss bttr wtch wht sy, hdn't ? (grin)

His rule of maintaining a 'civil tone' is rather confusing. If he is saying that I need to start writing 3-4 paragraph treaties on why I think evil is 'bad', then I guess I'd better move on, cuz' I can't do that--I find that boring. Say what you want to say and then get out so that the other guy can respond. The you respond to what he says.

I try to be confident in what I say and only say what I mean, even when I'm trying to be 'funny.'

I will not use profanity..if you (not YOU, personally...the 'royal' you...) have to resort to interjecting profanity into phrases like "grow the f*ck up", or "stop being a pr*ck", then you truly are a knuckle-dragger and not worth MY time.

But a lot of people are going to be hostile to both the knowledge and the knowledge givers because it's stripping away the comfortable stability of lifelong held beliefs. That makes some people resentful or afraid. Both of those feelings are often acted upon with anger.

excellent post, Jerry C

I put American in quotes because, in some cases, they really are just local joints with American names. Denny's and Domino are being prime examples - their menus were way more varied and better than here in the States.

friend of mine did his student teaching at an army base in Germany. his (and the other student teachers') first night there the guy who was showing them around told them they were going to McDonald's.

the general response was, 'but we can go to McDonald's back home.'

'yeah, but what type of beer do they serve at your McDonald's?'

To Jerry C:

You know, you're right...guess I'm the only one that says insulting things.

I turn your attention to July 2005, the thread entitled "This just in..."

As an Asian-American,I found that whole thread to be extremely offensive. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I may call you 'bucko', but your offensiveness tips the scale if the first thing you can think of when you think "Japan" in Godzilla (and to quote the American movie, "its GOJIRA, you idiot!"

Thank you all. I feel much, much better

It is nice to know that I'm no more offensive that you people are, and what a bunch of dammned hypocrites you all turned out to be.

Jerry C, don't sweat the delivery thing. It's not so much that men's brains freeze up during the delivery. I think it's got more to do with the fact that there's a room full of people that deliver babies on a daily basis around you that know what they are doing, and you (the father) end up watching and not having anything to do, and now knowing what you'd do anyway even if there were something you could do. You don' freeze up so much as feel like you should be as active as everyone else in the room, but knowing that if you were to be active, you'd just mess something up.

the day i was delivered my dad spent most of the day fixing some machine the hospital needed to hook my mom up to.

i don't recall if it was broken or if they just didn't have anyone who knew how to operate it. anyway, it helped my dad not go nuts.

Posted by Dan Nakagawa
I may call you 'bucko', but your offensiveness tips the scale if the first thing you can think of when you think "Japan" in Godzilla (and to quote the American movie, "its GOJIRA, you idiot!"

Those who find that offensive are thin-skinned. A statement's or idea's level of offensiveness should never be based on the thin-skinned.

Besides, I live in Oklahoma USA. I wish that my state's stereotype was a giant, radioactive monster instead of a rolling dustbowl/prarie with cowboys shootin' up injuns.

J H C on a pogo stick, Dan, I think you've totally lost it.

You know what the problem is with saying your piece as briefly as you can, and then getting out to let the other goy say his piece? It's that sometimes a complex idea isn't well conveyed in a short sentence or two. Like your Prometheus analogy. On the surface, it may look like a good choice for you to use. But any in-depth examination of it reveals that there's very little in the way of genuine parallels between the punishment inflicted upon Prometheus and the events that have occurred here regarding you.

If you don't understand that for American Godzilla fans, any extraordinary oceanic activity near Japan really IS going to conjure thoughts of the Big G, then you don't understand American Godzilla fans. And in a comic-related community, I'd guess you'd find a pretty good number of Godzilla fans (and yes, it may be Gojira in Japanese, but we aren't typing in Japanese, we're typing in English, and in English, it's Godzilla).

In what was was that thread offensive? There's nothing that I saw that should be offensive to the Japanese. If anything, it's a testament to the success of one of their (if not THE greatest Japanese entertainment export) that a bunch of yanks half a world away know so much about the character.

Which gets back the to topic of this thread. Dan N. is like the poster child for intelligence that refueses to let a little thing like facts and knowledge get in the way of a good preconcieved idea. Dan thinks he's being targeted by this community, and abused, and makes himself out to be a martyr. So he goes out and finds a thread that contains a humorous dialogue on Godzilla, and parades it as an example of how the board members are just as offensive as he's being accused of being.

Fact: there's only 2, maybe three, posters in common between the two threads.

Fact: Most, if not all, of the comments on the other thread are expressed in terms of admiration of Godzilla, an entirely Japanes creation.

Fact: If there's a derrogatory Japanese comment in that thread, I missed it.

Despite this, Dan tells us we're hypocritical because we lambast him for having an abusive, personally affronting tone. Dan's expressed some complex and cogent ideas, so we know he's not dumb. He just refuses to let his brain assimilate facts which allow him to make good decisions and draw correct conclusions. Which makes him look like an idiot.

"Those who find that offensive are thin-skinned. A statement's or idea's level of offensiveness should never be based on the thin-skinned.

Besides, I live in Oklahoma USA. I wish that my state's stereotype was a giant, radioactive monster instead of a rolling dustbowl/prarie with cowboys shootin' up injuns."

So, I take it then, you LIKE the dustbowl/prarie/Cowboy/injun stereotype? You embrace it? You pattern your own personal culture around it? It doesn't offend you in the least if I were to come up to you and call you 'pardner' or 'buckaroo'? 'Wanna rustle up some grub?'

You would not be offended if, when people visit your hometown, no matter how much you've worked to modernize the image, all they remember are cowboys/injuns/dustbowl?

You would LIKE to be remembered as a stereotype?

Really? And you would not be the slightest bit tired of being tied to that stereotype?

You don't want them to know that the Oklahoma has a rich Native American history, where the Witchita, Osage, Caddo and Quapaw tribes lived? You don't want them to remember Steinback's "The Grapes of Wrath", or the "Black Wall Street" of Northern Tulsa?

My point is that it isn't a matter of being thick or thin-skinned--you shouldn't have to tolerate stereotypes--especially not in this day and age.
You may not give it a second thought, but speaking as a minority, I'm sick and tired of having Japan's image tied to that stuipid lizard...

Ok, Dan, now you are just acting like an idiot. That's not the same thing as actually being and idiot but it's close enough.

You're lucky it's been a slow news week, you've managed to get the attention you so desperately crave (your constant cracks at Bill Myers suggest that one cut deep) but you're beginning to exhaust your limited repertoire. For a guy who dislocates his shoulder from the constant back patting over his supposed ability to say things in a few short pithy sentences, you sure do seem to be endlessly repeating the same tired points over and over and over...

I mean, are you serious? As an Asian-American,I found that whole thread to be extremely offensive. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I may call you 'bucko', but your offensiveness tips the scale if the first thing you can think of when you think "Japan" in Godzilla (and to quote the American movie, "its GOJIRA, you idiot!" Holy crap. It works best if you read that in a thin whiney voice, like an 11 year old feigning outrage. I've known a few people of Japanese descent (my stepson, for one) and they make more Godzilla jokes than I do. Which is saying something. But then they, unlike you, are actually funny, though they brag about it far less often than you do. There's a lesson there.

(And it's Godzilla here. Showing off by insisting that it's Gojira would be as stupid as insisting that The Seven Samurai be referred to as Shichinin no samurai. Being a knowledgable jerk is only a little better than being a jerk.).

I normally don't like name calling but nothing seems to be getting through to you. You're bright but clueless. Is this some kind of performance art? Someone from the John Byrne board here to teach us a lesson about how they feel we go on their board and start trouble? Fodder for an article? (I Was An Internet Troll: One Man's Story). Are you like this with everyone?

As for your comments on Bill Myer's blog- I don't know why you would expect to see PAD blogging there when he has plenty of opportunity to comment on what we say here. Peter doesn't comment often on his wife's blog either. This must baffle and confuse you.

You could have been welcome here but that wasn't your agenda. There are a couple of people who may enjoy having you around for easy target practice but I'll bet I speak for the majority when I say: "Bored now."

Bob Alfred states:

"He just refuses to let his brain assimilate facts which allow him to make good decisions and draw correct conclusions. Which makes him look like an idiot."
-----------------------------
"good decisions" and "correct conclusions"---what a bunch of elitist crap.

'Oh, we're not denegrating the Japanese culture, we're just big Godzilla fans!'

Yeah, that's like Japanese reducing the sum total of American culture into Ronald McDonald...I'm sure you'd really enjoy that...

Bill Mulligan:
"You could have been welcome here but that wasn't your agenda. There are a couple of people who may enjoy having you around for easy target practice but I'll bet I speak for the majority when I say: "Bored now."
------------------------
Now I know how the Stepford Husbands felt....

Fourteen posts in as many hours; thank goodness you told us you have a life, Dan.

"I appreciate your admitting that to me, although I am sure that other individuals on this board may take YOU to task over that sentiment."

No they won't.

"Really? Tell that to Bill Myers. Not only does he think I've been personally attacking him from the very beginning, but he thinks I do this to somehow gain his attention or curry his favor."

No he doesn't.

"I've been to his website...I can count on two hands the number of people that have contributed to his blog..."

Ahh... The cheap and easy shot that's pointless and not really related to anything I said. Score one for the low road takers.

"His rule of maintaining a 'civil tone' is rather confusing."

No, it's not the least bit confusing to adults.

"If he is saying that I need to start writing 3-4 paragraph treaties on why I think evil is 'bad', then I guess I'd better move on, cuz' I can't do that--I find that boring."

Funny, I seem to have missed where anyone said anything like that.

"..if you (not YOU, personally...the 'royal' you...) have to resort to interjecting profanity into phrases like "grow the f*ck up", or "stop being a pr*ck", then you truly are a knuckle-dragger and not worth MY time."
"...quite a few writers--my favorites--Harlan Ellison..."

You've never read any opinion essays by the first writer on your favorites list. Go to his site and call him a knuckle dragger that's not worth your time. It might be fun to watch.

"You know, you're right...guess I'm the only one that says insulting things."

On what planet did I say that? I've actually pointed out that most of us have had the odd flame out debates.

"You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I may call you 'bucko', but your offensiveness tips the scale if the first thing you can think of when you think "Japan" in Godzilla..."

No. Say "Japan" and I think of good food, fine brush work ink paintings and wax paintings, Kurosawa & Shichinin no samurai, a girl I dated in high school, Ranma 1/2 and Vampire Hunter D before getting to Gojira. Now, bring up the sea boiling and giant columns of steam jetting skyward with news sources quoting Maritime Self-Defense Forces... I go for the big G right off the bat.

"As an Asian-American,I found that whole thread to be extremely offensive."

What amazingly thin skin you must have.

"It is nice to know that I'm no more offensive that you people are, and what a bunch of dammned hypocrites you all turned out to be."

Actually, you are. And we're not hypocrites. We are proudly geeks of the first order. Had the same thing happened off the coastline of England there would have been Gerry Anderson or Doctor Who posts out the whazoo.

"If that was the first thing that came to your mind at this potential disaster, I shudder to think what your first thought was at Katrina..."

You have to be trying to be dense here. No damage done Vs mega damage and huge numbers of hurt and killed. That would be like you jumping on me for thinking a Jackie Chan stunt reel is cool because.. well.. You know that people have actually died falling off buildings.

"...but at the risk of once again being trollish..."

You are.

"...it looked less like an olive branh and more like the blue pill from the Matrix."

Yeah. Right. You either did not or can not read and understand those posts from before. Your post about the whole Godzilla thing just tells me what other people were smart enough to get well before me.

You're not worth the attempt at discourse and you belong on the ignore list.

Bye.

Bill,

"(And it's Godzilla here. Showing off by insisting that it's Gojira would be as stupid as insisting that The Seven Samurai be referred to as Shichinin no samurai. Being a knowledgable jerk is only a little better than being a jerk.)."

I was actually being a bit sarcastic in my post about his Gojira usage... But... Thanks for kneeing me in the nuts while I was still typing.

;)

And, no, before either Bill goes after the obvious....

It did not take me 45 minutes of hunt and peck to type that. My bus isn't quite that short. My dog went and killed another ground hog in the yard (I love her so much) and I had to leave the computer to deal with the remains.

Bill Mulligan, do NOT alienate Jerry C! We need his likeness to build our cat food empire!

(Pssst... everyone... don't tell Mulligan that he never actually made me a full partner in this endeavor... I'm hoping if I keep acting like he did he'll just accept it...)

Posted by: Jerry C at September 18, 2006 03:30 PM

And, no, before either Bill goes after the obvious....

Wouldn't dream of it, Jerry C. I've taken forever to write some of my posts, with no dog to fall back on as an excuse.

Jerry C:
Aw, C'mon Jer ol' buddy! Don't go away mad! You're so much fun to play with! I've got you to sink down to MY level, snarky comments and all!

This is soooo much fun. Watching y'all squirm...trying so hard not to be snarky, cuz' that'd make you as bad as me, yet, sooo wanting to...

I think I have finally figured it out and it took you, Jerry C, to shine the light...you're all GEEKS. I thought I was one too...I'm not. I find Anime depressing and boring (and I understand what they're saying without it having to be translated...)...wait I take that back...City Hunter...LOVED that one...everthing else is drivel...I'm starting to get bored of comics too... like old chewing gum, they've all pretty much lost their flavor for me. You all are so wrapped up in your lockstep geekspeak its pathetic.

I'm cured. I no longer have to hang out with you horse's asses.

I'm outta here.

""good decisions" and "correct conclusions"---what a bunch of elitist crap."

Once again, getting to the point of this thread. Bad information leads to bad decisions. History is replete with them. If it's elitist to want to learn from past mistakes so we don't make future mistakes, then yeah, I'm elitist. Happy to be one. And sick and tired of seeing people all around me refuse to actually use their brains to act.

Enjoy it, no. But if Ronald was the biggest export my country had, I'd certainly not fault anyone for making the connection.

Here's where you go wrong Dan: You see a thread on underwater volcanic steam clouds near Japan and some comments about Godzilla, and all your mind processes is "Japan" and "Godzilla." You're trying to make a point about how the people that you think are attacking you are just as offensive as they claim you are, and you think you've found your proof.

You haven't: All you've found are a set of facts that, if you're allowed to spin your way, seem to support your position. But all they do is show you to either be using poor judgement and reading skills, or outright factual manipulation in order to make your point.

No one on that thread said "all I can think of when I hear someone mention Japan is Godzilla." Yet that's they way you're reacting. The specifics of the event are that a huge steam cloud near Japan evoked memories of Godzilla...because if you look at just about any of his movies, that very scene is probably somewhere in it.

"I'm outta here."

Best. Post. Ever.

Aw, C'mon Jer ol' buddy! Don't go away mad! You're so much fun to play with! I've got you to sink down to MY level, snarky comments and all!

This from the self-described non-troll.

Shrouded.

TWL

Outta here, maybe. But how long will it take to come back? I give it an hour. Maybe less.

Dan Nakagawa
It doesn't offend you in the least if I were to come up to you and call you 'pardner' or 'buckaroo'? 'Wanna rustle up some grub?

Nope, I just laugh and tell them that they're thinking of Texas. Back in 94, I went to DC on a field trip and met people who really did think that most Oklahomans still rode horses to school.

Dan Nakagawa
You would not be offended if, when people visit your hometown, no matter how much you've worked to modernize the image, all they remember are cowboys/injuns/dustbowl?

If that's all they remembered, then they slept on the way to and from the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum.

Dan Nakagawa
You don't want them to know that the Oklahoma has a rich Native American history, where the Witchita, Osage, Caddo and Quapaw tribes lived? You don't want them to remember Steinback's "The Grapes of Wrath", or the "Black Wall Street" of Northern Tulsa?

Don't care. I don't care if they know any of that. I never took Oklahoma history (moved here the year after it was required social studies) so there is still much I don't know. Last year, I found out that Oklahoma was originally going to be split up into two states and I thought that was cool because I was reading an alternate history book where Oklahoma was called Sequoyah and didn't know why until I went to a Cherokee history museum -- finding the fact behind the fiction was revelating!

Dan Nakagawa
My point is that it isn't a matter of being thick or thin-skinned--you shouldn't have to tolerate stereotypes--especially not in this day and age.

I agree, but the only way that Godzilla relates to folks sterotyping is if they believe that the Japanese speak in stilted English with their mouths' movements not matching the words being spoken. People simply thinking of Godzilla when Japan is mentioned is hardly an instance of stereotyping.

Dan Nakagawa
You may not give it a second thought, but speaking as a minority, I'm sick and tired of having Japan's image tied to that stuipid lizard...

For any individual, Japan's image (just like Oklahoma's image) is limited by that individual's exposure to Japan whether personal or via media. Godzilla is merely one faucet of exposure. The movie "Gung-Ho" is another. The architecture (i.e. pointed roofs) of Japan's famous castles is another. Samurai and ninjas are another.

In the end, you take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life.

jerry, no offense meant--it's not like you were insisting on everyone using the original Japanese. I, for example, like to refer to THE HORROR CHAMBER OF DR FAUSTAS by the original LES YEUX SAN VISAGE because it makes me feel hip and cool.

Well Dan, now it's time to say goodbye. You know, you can insult me. You can insult my friends. But calling Godzilla a "stupid lizard"? Good day to you, sir! Good day, I say!

1998 Godzilla was a stupid lizard. Gojira, on the other hand, will kick anyone's ass, any day.

Even Batman.

BTW the reason I thought of SEVEN SAMURAIm in the first place is because Criterion just released a 3 disk set whuch is said to be the best version ever released. If you haven't seen this movie please do so.

Ohhhhhh, it is, man, it is.

BTW the reason I thought of SEVEN SAMURAIm in the first place is because Criterion just released a 3 disk set whuch is said to be the best version ever released. If you haven't seen this movie please do so.

damn it. i already have the Criterion Collection version of Seven Samurai, but mine's only the one disc.

i mean, it's cool that there's more stuff, but it's always annoying when something you spent money on becomes obsolete.

I know. They're bastards. But how can I complain?

If they keep doing this sneaky crap though it's going to make people look into downloading stuff even more than they already do.

Danny Boy---

Peter usually doesn't go to the trouble of banning people here.

Be careful, though. He might disemvowel you.

Guess I posted that for nothing, seeins how Dan left and all.

I deliberately refrained from responding to Dan Nakagawa today because he seemed to feel a particular enmity towards me. I had hoped that my staying out of the fray might lower the tension level a bit. But Dan found other excuses to blow a gasket.

Dan's last post in this thread led me to mull over witty rejoinders, but I rejected them all. We've given him far more attention than he ever deserved.

Instead, I'd like to tell the rest of you that by and large, you are a really good group of people. Whenever I come here, I learn things, I am drawn into debates that sharpen my critical thinking skills, and I enjoy a level of camarederie I haven't experienced in any other online community.

Make no mistake, this is a community in the truest and best sense of the word. Oh, yeah, we're a contentious bunch. But many people here are also quick to compliment someone for a nice post, offer useful information, and even offer words of support to others when needed.

I'll never forget when a poster got Peter riled some months back. That poster came back and apologized. Peter replied that his reaction could have been more tactful, and dismissed the incident as "bygones." The conflict was resolved amicably, just like that.

By failing to exhibit the good qualities most of you possess, Dan ironically brought those qualities into sharper relief and reminded me why I keep coming here. I consider myself lucky to be a part of this community.

Addendum: I noted that Dan called us "horse's asses." The placement of the apostrophe indicates the possessive is singular, meaning one horse with multiple asses. That's odder than a pre-Crisis Kryptonian turkey on sale at the SuperFresh Mart.

Bill Myers,

Hear, hear. I second that. A round of drinks for everybody on me.*

*This offer limited to only states named Virginia. Offer expires while you wait or your money back.

meaning one horse with multiple asses.

There's gonna be a lot of lookalike mules round these parts...

TWL

Yes, Viriginia, there really is a Jerry Claus. I mean, what ELSE could the "C" be for if he's going to buy the state a drink? Or does that sound like a really scaled down Coke commercial? "I'd like to by my state a Coke, because I think the rest all suck..."

And who knew that Fez was just Irish? With a tan? Huh. Learn something every day.

As some people know, I work at a racetrack. One horse with multiple asses...I live in mortal fear. Therapy helps, but still the dreams come....

So, when do we stop bashing posting trolls and discuss STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET STRIP? Sorkin is back, comrades!

Posted by Bill Mulligan:
I, for example, like to refer to THE HORROR CHAMBER OF DR FAUSTAS by the original LES YEUX SAN VISAGE because it makes me feel hip and cool.

Well, if you *pronounce* the title correctly, you might come off feeling "hip and cool" (your friends may think you "pretentious", but that's another matter). Your spelling, however, leaves much to be desired. It should read "Faustus" in the US title, and "sans" in the French. (I wonder: Is this film one of Billy Idol's favorites?)

At the risk of endangering my standing within such august company as Bill Myers's "really good group of people," (assuming, of course, that I'm included, acting the jackanapes, speaking from the heart rather than research in the more serious discussions, and poking the occasional troll, or oni as the case may be, with a stick, as I am wont to do) I have one final musing regarding our latest "visitor":

Does anybody else think he may have actually had an orgasm when he finally got to type that last post where he "won" over, apparently, Zeus's multi-assed geek horse?

-Rex Hondo-

Posted by Rex Hondo at September 19, 2006 01:57 AM

At the risk of endangering my standing within such august company as Bill Myers's "really good group of people,"

Rex, it's not my "really good group of people." I just happen to be lucky enough to be a part of it.

Posted by Rex Hondo at September 19, 2006 01:57 AM

(assuming, of course, that I'm included, acting the jackanapes, speaking from the heart rather than research in the more serious discussions, and poking the occasional troll, or oni as the case may be, with a stick, as I am wont to do)

Rex, I can't speak for anyone else here, but for what it's worth I think you're good people.

Well, if you *pronounce* the title correctly, you might come off feeling "hip and cool" (your friends may think you "pretentious", but that's another matter). Your spelling, however, leaves much to be desired. It should read "Faustus" in the US title, and "sans" in the French. (I wonder: Is this film one of Billy Idol's favorites?)

Pretentious? Moi?

Those darn French have a different word for everything.

Well, for the sake of clarity, it would probably be more accurate to say "The group of really good people mentioned by Bill Myers."

Also for the sake of clarity, I do not mean to imply by any means that others who make an effort to focus the lense of logic on many of our discussions are heartless in any way, shape, or form.

It's been a particularly rough month at work, and the last couple of nights even more so (Anyone having seen the news out of Indianapolis over the last couple of days might have some idea why, though I don't remember right this moment if I've actually mentioned before that I'm a pharmacy tech IRL) Can't hand out details in light of the inevitable litigation, but even though I wasn't directly involved, the entire hospital's on edge, and the pharmacy doubly so.

Which, of course, can lead a man to ramble slightly. :6

-Rex Hondo-

1There is a new John Mortimer coming out Oct 06--Rumpole and the Reign of Terror. Good to know there are people out there that read him. Each time he does one I fear it will be the last.

Posted by Tim Lynch at September 15, 2006 05:23 PM

(my words: the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.)

tim responds "In whose f***ing universe, Chris? Nobody who's spoken up on this thread, that's for sure."

Generally, in every real universe, the general attitude is "too bad President Example won the last election" and in the real world President Example won the election by defeating one guy... and most of the liberals I have encountered (and I have encountered) many have opined things along the lines of "don't blame me I voted for Kerry".

So yes, while the declaration is irrational, the world is irrational, and my conclusion has the unfortunate logic that a lot of people who mourn the victory of one mourn the defeat of another.

Now in this thread anyone really could have been thinking that it's too bad the POTUS is the POTUS and the obviously more intelligent... um.... Thomas Jefferson wasn't around to kick his ass.

But for TWL's response to ultimately stand, to say that my generalization is the exception and not the other way around, would be to assume that there was not ever a market in "don't blame me I voted for Kerry" stickers.

Right now the idea comes to mind...

the majority of serious Conservatives that I speak to (and not just Republican political jerks or decent non-political human beings with Lite Conservative moral codes) routinely have ideas whom they wish to have President right now rather than George W. Bush. Guys with Conservative beliefs and principles and stuff like that that the so-called beholders spout off about all the time. If you take them at face value, then certainly guys like Alan Keyes (elitist overeducated show-off) or Pat Buchanan (white nationalist jerk) or Ross Perot (I have no problem with him except that maybe his politics became more ego-driven in 1992 and 1996) may certainly be more Conservative and more right-wing than President Bush, but more importantly these people, right or wrong, have thought through their beliefs and why they hold them, hold to them, and speak of them. Certainly Keyes, Buchanan, or... Glenn Beck have thought through their personal philosophies, politics, or beliefs much more thoroughly than George W. Bush. They know why they believe and they know why they believe it.

I may want Alan Keyes or Tom Trancredo to be President and I think most of the so-called Republican front-runners are weak-willed ninnies at the core and/or not very serious about their purported beliefs.

The DNC nominated John Kerry. Who do serious Leftists wish were President? and I really don't think a serious Leftist wants Hillary Rodham Clinton or John Kerry to be President... they don't have philosophies.