PeterDavid.net

OK, this one had *teeth* and I mean that in a good way.

Dang rignt spoilers follow. Not caring.

Nice bits:

* 9/11 having the psychic effect of creating Nightmare's arch.

* Daydream being Betty's daughter, presumably while she was comatose after Abomination's murder attempt.

* The 'justice' meted out to Bruce after the bomb incident. I have to admit, I had some sympathy with the principal, and some idea of how young Banner could have alienated everyone so badly.

* A good explanation of how Ross hooked up with 'milksop' banner way back when. Also, *Major* Ross put me in mind of Major Tablot.

* A cliffhanger that promises to retunr Betty to Bruce's life.

* The psychic congruity between Banner and Hulk as adults. They don't argue or fight, just hand over as needed. I always liked the idea of the Hulk being a Good News/Bad News situation: "Good news, you're incredibly powerful! Bad news, you have to be the worst so-and-so you can imagine to use it!"

Less effective:

*Nightmare's boast of "this is how I've meddled with your mind!" came across too strongly as a device for dismissing unwanted continuity, esp. since usually such things traditionally get ignored in a sort of "gentlemen's agreement" among writers and fans.

*I liked Daydream better when she was a human woman keeping up than when she was a supernatural being in her own right. She needed more characterization than just being the villain's nice daughter.

* Banner's breaing through the illusion at the asylum was a bit too fast.

*********

I'm looking forward to your future work on Hulk and Spider-Man.

Sadly, I won't be able to get to my LCBS until the weekend, but I'm really looking foward to this issue!

The 911 bit was pretty corny and made no sense Peter. With all the things that have went down over the years in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is was it takes for the creation of Nightmare Island?

It was almost as bad as Doctor Doom crying at ground zero. I mean...yikes.

Anthony --

Yeah, I didn't buy Doom's tears either, but I think what JMS tried to do then, and PAD here, is necessary.

The real world has caught up with all the stuff comic-book villains have pulled and shot right past..

At some level, the change in perspective has to be acknowledged.

No one could take a story based on moon-men seriously since Neil Armstrong and company landed

But the change in perspective "has" been acknowledged in comics Mitch. It's been acknowledged to death with almost every attempt being worse than the last. But I do see where your coming from.

I always suspected that Doom cried because he was frustrated that he did not think of it first.

I enjoyed the issue. I sure was hoping that the stories in between PAD's last and current runs had been bad dreams. I have deleted them from my personal continuity!

Well, that blows my whole "Scarlett Witch" theory out of the water.

Really enjoyed how you left things ambiguous. Hulk (and the readers) aren't quite sure how much has happened to him. Naysayers of Jones' run can rejoice, but so can the fans. It all depends on your perspective. And I like how Hulk doesn't care one way or the other. From his perspective, he's just moving on to the next thing.

I don't agree with the earlier statement that Bruce figured out Samson's ruse too quickly. First of all, Bruce is really, really smart. And second, someone's been messing with his mind for four issues already--of course he'd be on his toes!

And what I liked the most is that this wasn't really Hulk's story--he stumbled into someone else's! Consider me thoroughly (and enjoyably) misled.

Was the 9-11 reference necessary? Probably not. For some people it's disconcerting to have reality invade their fantasy. I didn't mind. And the villain's expository speech was worth it to see Hulk's reaction, which was, of course, not giving a crap.

I wonder how far Hulk will get before he escapes the island. I'm guessing he won't be able to take the horse beyond that point. Too bad. And I don't even want to think about the possibility of him remaining trapped on the island for the duration of Peter's run! And Betty...

Okay, consider me hooked. Looking forward to the next issue, as well as the next Visionaries collection.

Really liked it Peter! Not a fan of making 9/11 Marvel Canon, but good way of working that into Hulk continuity.

So, that last page, I take it Betty Blue was a nightmare twitch in the fans minds, eh?

I think it was a very ambiguous end to a very confusing story. That said, I loved it. It was great to see the old Hulk back in action, with attitude. There has been so much flak from Bruce Jones run, that PAD's story definitely allows the reader to just ignore all that stuff as just a bad 'nightmare.'

As to the 9/11 connetction, I had no problem with it. That one day completely changed the way a world thinks. Who knows what that can do to the fabric of reality?

Cut and pasted from my reviews column this week:

Incredible Hulk #81: Marvel - Tempest Fugit wraps up, probably. This is the sort of story where even when all the cards are laid on the table, you get the distinct impression that you weren't playing the game you thought you were. And while I didn't care for the real life link that gave rise to the plot device, at least Peter David was coy enough about details that the story can stand the test of time (pun intended). Recommended. $2.99/$4.25Cn

Incredible Hulk #82: Marvel - Quick followup for this one issue buffer story. Jae Lee's art is about as murky as usual, and his visual storytelling leaves a lot to be desired. Decent story from Peter David, tho. Recommended despite the art. $2.99/$4.25Cn (Read this one out of the First Looks pile)

I found this issue to be impressive however, these kinds of dream based stories have always gave me headaches. Same thing with Time Travel stories. But well that's my problem, not yours.

Lessee...you wrapped up all major plot points with a few head-turning surprises while leaving things open for a sequel. Hokey smokes Bullwinkle!! That's not writing...that's EXCELLENT writing.

Kinda confused about it.

http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?rpl=050525214050

Those are pretty much my confusions...otherwise, great ish.

Loved Fallen Angel.

This, alot less so. Murky. Confusing. And surprisingly boring. Your timing seemed way off this issue. Nightmare has always been, and certainly was this issue, an ineffective villian. He never felt threatening, especially with his tendency to ramble on in extremely tirering villian cliches. The 911 thing, though intriguing, felt like a major throw away.

I was obviously very disappointed. Looks like The Hulk will now be a victim of my recent financial difficulties.

Here's to hopin' Fallen Angel returns soon.

Later,
Chip

Very happy with it!! Bill Mantlo did great things with Nightmare and handled correctly he can be a great villain. Mark Waid did a good story in Cap. America a few years back.
Very pleased that PAD is staying at least for a while on Hulk, I hope he feels he can spread his wings a little and not be restricted by the prospect of a short run. Nothing hampers long term plots more than short runs.
Now if we could only get Sal Busema to draw an arc then I would be happy. These legendary Hulk artists won't be with us forever!
One more point I would like to make is that having extra issues in a month gives us more PAD issues before December (where we hopefully find out he is staying).

Cross over with Spidey??

Ian

Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones. ( The one thing I would have dug to see on "Fantasy Island" beside Tattoo, would have been a Jarella in 70's stylish clothes. When Betty's hair turned Green... thats who I thought of at first...before I remembered Jarella's hair was Yellow.

What I enjoyed most about it is that it opens with the suggestion that we have a situation where it's suggested that -everything- that has happened since point X was a dream, a plot device that is insulting and annoying. "Oh, you have been consuming this and paying attention? Well, pffffft!" Then it ends with the suggestion that -some- of what you think you know... you don't. Maybe. Or maybe a lot. Which is, to me, the core of serial writing and reading.

I haven't read all of the messages, but I have seen little comment on how the flashbacks integrated with the story--is this one story or two? If it is one, then the retelling of Bruce's school days juxtaposed with Nightmare saying he is messing with Bruce's mind casts not just the reality of Bruce Jones's Hulk stories in doubt, but the reality of the whole flashback in doubt. Maybe the tales of young Bruce are just an invention of Nightmare. If so, why?

I'm still trying to decide if I like the story or not. The portrayal of the Hulk was great, and there were a ton of great moments in the story. The Nightmare/Nightmare's daughter/Betty/Nightmare Island elements, well, if given a chance to develop, they could all be cool, but if left dangling will end up dissapointing.

The September 11 references didn't really work for me. The Marvel Universe is so different than ours, how September 11 fits there is odd. I'm sure Peter is trying to make various points, about how it was like something out of a movie. Perhaps Nightmare's comment about working into people's minds and messing with their views of reality is some sort of an explanation of how people could vote for Bush, how they continue to give credence to his claims of WMD when there weren't any.

I guess to me the story centered heavily around the villain's exposition at the end, which is not my favorite plot device. "Ah Hulk, now let me explain everything to you (and the readers)...." Since Hulk is not exactly one to indulge in debate, and simply ripped his head off, well, it broke the cliche. Sometimes breaking a cliche can be cool, and sometimes it just leaves you with unsatisfying little shards of cliche all over your floor.

In short, how much I like this story depends a lot on how the elements it introduced get developed. A Daydream limited series could be cool, too.

You know...sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.

I wrote the sequence--including Nightmare's speech--because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now."

Every day since then, moreso than ever, we've questioned what's real and what's not, what's lies and what's not, what's made up and what's not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country's actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.

And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country's recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would--I'd have hoped--leave readers nodding and saying, "Well, there's as accurate a commentary on modern times as I've read lately."

Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.

PAD

Good stuff, Maynard.

Mindf*ck stories make my brain hurt almost as much as time-travel stories, but Nightmare's a great villain if used right, and I thought you put him to good use here.

I've got no problem with making 9-11 "canon" in the Marvel Universe. I mean, New York has always been so much a part of the MU that I half-expected to see the Baxter Building the first time I went there -- so acknowledging Ground Zero and 9-11 doesn't seem all that big a stretch.

I enjoyed Bruce Jones's run on the book, but I've had more fun in the last 4 issues of the Hulk than I had in the last 4 years (I mean, how can you NOT love a book where Hulk goes toe-to-nose with Fin Fang Foom?)

Keep it coming.

Well, I loved the issue! Don't let the naysayers get you down, you can't please everyone all the time. I half-heartedly expected Nightmare to pull of his mask and reveal himself as Bruce Jones.. "And I would've gotten away with it too if weren't for you meddling kids!" hehe...

"It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country's actions shift faster than the average dreamscape."

I disagree with THIS statement, since I think that the reasons for the country's actions have been fairly static (and wholly justifiable). However, as neither of us are ever going to change the other's mind, I'll leave it at that.

I really enjoyed the 9/11 tie-in, Peter, because I remember sitting on the arm of an elderly downstairs neighbor's couch (she'd grabbed me as I was heading into the building, tears in her eyes, asking if I'd seen what was going on), thinking exactly what you said: "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now." I was still sitting there when the first tower fell, repeating to myself, over and over, that it was time to wake up.

The idea that a nation full of people thinking the same thing could have an effect on reality, especially in a world like the Marvel-verse, is a very interesting one.

While I was okay with the 9/11 comment, I think you are giving short shrift to the readers who commented on having some trouble with it -in the context of the Marvel universe-. Given the fact that it makes no explicit reference to 9/11 I read it in a metaphoric sense as refering to a world-trauma in the MU that may or may not be 9/11.

BUT I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone else to say they read it and though "9/11" and then immediately though about what 9/11 would have been in the MU. And it's completely reasonable to think that it would have been very different. They have giant world-eating people, Genosha, gamma bombs, pretty regular damage to the cities that probably rivals the towers, etc. They also have a ton of people in spandex who would be asked "hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?"

Vaughn treats this very well over in Ex Machina where a supertype responded to the first unforseeable plane and was there for the second. JMS did a good story in Spider-Man but it begged the question why anyone would have fallen to their death when you have hundreds of spandex flyers and stretching/invisible/firey people with flying cars in the area to pick them up.

While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it's their failure ("sometimes fans disappoint me a little") to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.

And for the thousandth time, can someone just turn off the goddamned 'preview' button if all it's going to do is empty my name & email address boxes and never actually preview a damned thing?

PAD,

You never fail to impress...

I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer's run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore's "This is an imaginary story... but aren't they all."

I thought Nightmare's revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I've never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you've managed to change that for now.

PAD,

You never fail to impress...

I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer's run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore's "This is an imaginary story... but aren't they all."

I thought Nightmare's revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I've never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you've managed to change that for now.

"While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it's their failure ("sometimes fans disappoint me a little") to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided."

Why?

See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.

I can't count the number of times that fans have read this, that or the other by various writers and talked about being "let down," about being disappointed or--best of all--claiming that the writer wasn't even trying or "clearly" didn't care about the story he was producing, as if they have a little window set up inside the writer's mind.

So if fans are able to say, with impunity, that they are disappointed in a writer or his efforts to produce a certain work, then I think it's perfectly justified--and not at all misguided--for a writer to say that he's disappointed in some fans or their efforts to comment upon said work.

PAD

Didn't like it. Not a big nightmare fan.

Though the whole Banner in highschool thing would lead to somthing a little bigger than explaining how he met up with Ross.

Unsatisfied with the ending. Betty's trapped on the nightmare island, and the Hulk doesn't even know about it. I guess we just dropped the whole "she hates him and has super powers" thing...

I loved the story. I loved the idea of Bruce being given the choice to determine what events have or have not actually taken place. I was immediately reminded of the argument that constantly pervades the 'net focusing on the idea that fans do the same in regard to stories, writers, etc that they don't like.... let it go. This seemed to be a creative revisiting and twist on that discussion.

I also found the facts behind Nightmare's corporal emergence and power boost in the Marvel Universe to be particularly powerful in contemplating them as I read and in reflectiong about it since. Thanks for the energy that you put into this story and your return to the title.

Fred

Hmmm. Last night I dreamed that I read an issue of THE INCREDIBLE HULK. What a Nightmare! :-)

Peter, you did a great job of leaving it open to fans on how to interpret the years since your departure from the book. Dream, nightmare, continuity, non-continuity.

As for the comments from the readers criticizing the use of Nightmare in response to 9/11, I think it is correct. Clearly, Nightmare is the perfect description of the past four years.

Peter,

I'm cool if you want to blame me for not getting what you were attempting. I don't agree, but I'm fine with your perspective.

I think I clearly stated my issues with the, ah issue in question. Nightmare has always been a lame character to me. EVERYONE ALWAYS figures out that they are being manipulated, therefore completely defanging any of his hoodoo. His speech was so condescending and trite... granted, that's the norm for such a blowhard, but I look for something original from you, and this was the same old boring Nightmare, explaining to us stupid readers everything like we're children, and becoming powerless once he's found out.

I have no qualms regarding including "real world" events into the story, and, frankly, find those that do a tad too geeky to take seriously. I was shocked to silence for days after 911 happened, but my reaction was not the one you describe, hence I can't identify with your angle. I, personally, was driven to action by 911, not denial. That is not to say that everyone else reacted as you described, just that I simply cannot identify.

Plus, since Nightmare has always been such an ineffective villian to me, his encroachment into our "reality" is slightly less scarey than the thought of my mother-in-law moving in with me. I exaggerate to make my point.

I also felt the story was all over the place, switching from flashback (?) to nightmare to reality (?) too frequently to invest in any particular scene (though the Principal locking Bruce in the basement moved me). It just didn't feel cohesive.

And the imperilled-Betty-with-an-unaware Bruce/Hulk-thing is just... tired.

I also could not latch onto any of the characters because I wasn't sure what was real and what was not. I don't care about imaginary characters. You gave me nothing to indicate that Nightmare wasn't full of crap, and all of this was in the Hulk's head. I have only Nightmare's word that he's encrouched on our plane, and he's a lying, full-of-feces villian. Why should I care about Bruce's past, or Betty's peril if none of it seems real?

It seems that I'm part of a minority as it is, so I'm confused by your reaction. Calling me a dunce (or aluding to that accessment) seems like a weak argument. I didn't say YOU sucked. I simply stated that this issue failed to work for me. If I remember, I also stated how much I loved Fallen Angel, a work of far deeper characters and situations. I see both the forest and the trees. I just don't see them as you do in this instance.

Still, I thoroughly enjoy the discussion.

Later,
Chip

(Raises hand)

Sure, it was impressive, but no more traumatic than any other disaster that doesn't directly involve me or people I care about. And it was followed by so much hand-wringing and saber-rattling that what sympathy I may have had got rapidly turned into mild annoyance.

I had no nightmares, felt no overwhelming grief or despair. I was a bit shocked that the buildings collapsed, because I hadn't thought about the fire angle (a bomber hit the Empire State Building during WWII and the building was mostly fine, but the bomber didn't have thousands of gallons of fuel).

Disasters claim lives all the time. Sorry to sound callous, but trying to empathize with them all would drive anyone mad. And the Twin Towers just weren't close enough to me to get past that sanity-protecting barrier.

---Dave

Your story is set in the Marvel Universe Peter. You are aksing us to beleive that 911 gave Nightmare the power for Nightmare Island. So your asking us to beleive that in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is what did the trick for Nightmare. I understand you were trying for resonance, but that isn't a magic sheild from the people who justifyably have a problem with the story.

And who said they were disappointed in you? It just sounds like your trying to protect yourself from your earlier comments about how the fans can sometimes disappoint you. And isn't it just a little two faced of you talk about how fans thrive off of contact with the writer but balk at the notion of a level playing field, but when someone comes in with a valid point against your story you get disappointed in those fans? If you were looking for praise just ask "did I rock that issue or did I ROCK that issue?" instead of "whad'ja think"

Before I read other comments, I will post my immediate reaction: shock and awe. (I mean that in a good way.) Based on past books and comics, I did have confidence that the series would not just fizzle. But you far exceeded yourself this time. You have a rare talent to craft a story. I may not like all of them, but I absolutely respect your ability as a writer. The "secret" of the island evoked some very painful memories. In a few sentences, you captured a moment in time as few have the ability to do. Thanks.

Iowa Jim

Another hand up here.

My thought was "Gee, I'd hoped they would hold off on World War Three until after I was safely dead."

Ok, I have read the comments and am somewhat taken aback. I can understand (somewhat) the confusion some might feel when you mix reality (9/11) with fiction (Marvel Universe). But I don't understand how some do not see this as a PAD described it -- a moment when the world stood in shock and horror. This was not the worse disaster in history. I realize seeing it on live TV and then replayed over and over caused it to burned into our minds. But this was not a "natural" disaster (like an earthquake or Tsunami). This was an act of hatred by some evil, cowardly men. This should not have happened.

I have my differences with PAD on how we should respond to this event. That is to be expected when an event is so traumatic. But to say it was not that big of a deal and just another disaster is beyond my ability to comprehend. I am not being critical of those who think differently, I am just saying I just plain can't comprehend it.

And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country's recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would--I'd have hoped--leave readers nodding and saying, "Well, there's as accurate a commentary on modern times as I've read lately."

I may disagree with PAD's politics, but he has a sharp mind. His comment nailed it. Something did change (for good or bad is up to you to decide) on 9/11.

Iowa Jim

eh, was hoping with PAD we'd get away from the mind games a bit, not looking forward to Jae Lee's art or the "House of Bendizzzz" tie in.

Man, that last page was so Twilight Zone-y, I was half expecting a question mark on the "END" caption. I mean that in a good way.

Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route instead of the main topic, and just mention how much I loved the flashback sequences throughout the storyline. They really gave alot of insight into the character, (and had an awesome Fight Club moment, which I dug) while the primary plot was more of a mystery and Fing-Fang-Foom smashie-smashie. Nice balance of the two.

Still, someone clue me in on what this storyline had to do with the "main" plot. I liked it alot, maybe even more than the A plot, but is there some subtext in there connecting the two that I'm missing out on? Young Bruce's nightmare comming to life with "Hulk" planting a bomb? The evil government whisking him away for thier own nefarious a-doings? What?

C'mon, someone, throw me a frickin' bone here. I'm too stupid to pick it up.

PAD,
I LOVED the story. It made me remember why I love your writing is IMHO the first GREAT Hulk story you've done since you got back (and I'm a harsh judge_
And you are correct. Some, can't see the forest for the trees.

I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. True, as time goes by, some twists and turns would have to be made to explain why all the super-heroes didn't just go over to Afghanistan on 9/12 and tear every possible hiding place apart. (Or is it? Both the DC and Marvel universes are so filled to the brim with mutants and metas, it can easily be assumed enough would be in the Islamic world to make the spandex crowd think twice about such a move and how it would effect innocents in the area.) Kind of what Roy Thomas had to do in ALL-STAR SQUADRON to explain why just Superman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, and Spectre by themselves didn't sink Japan the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed.

My only problem is that, knowing history like I do, there would've been other instances over the ages where Nightmare could've also established a real-world base. But then, Nightmare could be lying, or previous bases have somehow been eliminated, and the 9/11 base is the newest.

First of all, I'm glad the HULK is actually appearing in his comic again and actually has a personality. I've always liked you've written all the different versions of the big green guy.

But As of right now I'm not really crazy about this story. I hope this comes to an actual conclusion down the road, since i didn't think this issue was much of one.

I hope we're actually told what is real and what was a dream. I don't like the idea of wondering "Is the hulk dreaming this or is this real?" every time i read a hulk comic from now on.

I was a bit dissappointed at the dismisal of the "Devil Hulk".

Overall, I think Jenkins was pretty reverential to the multiple personality angle and the Devil Hulk would seem to have the potential for a great Hulk epic.

I'm happy to have you back Peter, but this issue leaves me wondering...what's next?!?!? It looks like a fill-in issue next month & then the agonizing wait through a House of M crossover (at least we get Jorge Lucas, who drew the BEST Iron Man in years!!!!) I just want a little hint of what's to come! Are you staying on board? Will Lee Weeks & Tom Palmer return? Are we going to get a story arc that focuses on Hulk's interaction with his supporting cast, such as Betty, Samson, Ross, Rick, etc... Basically are we going to get back on track & get a direction going here again? The team that produced Tempus Fugit brought us the best Hulk in years, certainly the best art since the Sal Buscema days! Will you all return? Please!!!! If not, are the 2 artists hinted at on the letter's page a real possibility?

Al

PS: I agree with a previous writer that it'd be nice to see Sal Buscema brought back for a story arc on HIS character before he gets too old! An even better idea would be to have Ernie Chan or Joe Rubinstein ink him!

We were unhappy when PAD left Hulk, now when hes back people still moan about what he's written.

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PLEASE YOU LOT!!!

PADs' back lets enjoy it while it lasts.

Ian

PS. Things can be scrutinised a bit too much so that it spoils the enjoyment of it, lighten up.

I haven't read hulk regularly in a long time, so I suppose I was a little thrown off by some of the back history I missed. What exactly happened to betty being in a coma/abomination, etc?

General comment since I haven't read the book:

"I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. "

The MU was removed from the real world a long time ago. Two buildings falling happens with stunning regularity in the MU and DCU. Cities are destroyed, aliens wipe out whole blocks, creatures from the deep flood New York. I always wondered what kind of people could populate a world where this happens so regularly and not be in constant walking shock or cringing terror?

Again, I'm making no comment on Peter's story, but the lack of impact on MU "regular people" from all the constant death and destruction has effectively removed MU from reality, and doesn't really address the issue realistically at all (as opposed to the events that took place in Miracle Man - that's what a superbeing WOULD do to the world).

That's been a stick in my craw for awhile; this just provided a forum for it. Ignore and carry on, I feel better...

"Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones."
You guessed right as well? I remember guessing that the antagonist-'daughter' pair were either Dormammu-Clea (due to the Mindless Ones), The Shaper and herald replacing Glorian (the reality-warping) or Nightmare and Dreamqueen (the modus operandi). I almost nailed it with the last one at least. It was fun with all the thought-through false leads and possibilities of the story. :)

A question for Peter: Is it possible that we could receive a list of which stories are still in continuity from the incoherent, in-between travesties of the runs when you were away? The Absorbing Man as a serial-killing parasite, the Devil-Hulk, the Abomination's petite ballerina wife as a hardcore spy and the unexplained ressurrections, mutations and deaths of the Leader should be out I guess, but which appearances are still legit? Just the ones outside his own book? Really the continuity of the Hulk had turned into a completely illogical mess, so I'm glad you've tried to straighten it out.

Also, I baguely remember a story forced on you from above where Nightmare and D'Spayre took Betty's child. Was this Daydream or was the child conceived during Betty's coma? Heck is Betty alive or dead now that the entire 'Mr' Blue idiocy of 'Betty goes She-Hulk and gets cancer' is taken away? The last scene was very confusing in this regard. Was that really Ross or another aspect of Nightmare impersonating him again? Hmm...

Also, is there any chance we could _please_ get a follow-up on whatever happened to the Maestro after last seen buried below a few tons of rock? Did he or didn't he plan out the entire 'poison Betty'-plot for the Abomination? I really, really hope you stay on the book for several years more. I love what you're doing with it. :)

Just read the comic and then read the comments here. I was one of those that did not immediately get the 911 connection. Rereading it I see the reference, but not being american it didn't have quite the same impact (if you'll excuse the expression).

I recall watching it live on TV and the experience was very dreamlike, but at no point did I think "let it all not be real" - it was happening and I was watching it. In the context of the Marvel Universe it is completely incongrous. As with many real world events it just doesn't work as such a big deal because so many other events have occured that should have had the same or worse effects, but because they aren't written with any focus on the victims we don't see any trauma caused.

In Marvel world knocking down a couple of big buildings in New York is an everyday occurance. That's not to say we should be blase about 911, it's saying that perhaps we should be seeing a little more cause and affect among ordinary everyday type people when the Baxter Building is destroyed or Galactus lands or fimbulwinter begins or any of the other disasters of catastrophic nature occur.

But back to the comic in progress, after loving preceeding issues I found the ending a bit week. Daydream was set up nicely but once revealed never really did anything and I was left feeling that this was some kind of prologue to her true story. The whole Nightmare twist was not really foreshadowed enough for me. Perhaps I missed an earlier hint, but using Mindless Ones was a complete red herring, and dismissing them as having been borrowed from a nearby dimension felt like a bit of a cheat.

All in all I felt it was too much like one of those mystery stories that you can't solve because there are important pieces of the puzzle that aren't revealed to you until the denoument. I've enjoyed the whole story a lot, but I definitely found this the weakest part of it.

I'm also interested in seeing what will be made of the unconnected sub-story, with the Hulk-personality as a would-be serial killing bomber and the new aunt. How exactly does she tie into the Bruce Banner-Jennifer, Elain & Morris Walters family? Elain and the new aunt were sibling of Bruce's mother Rebecca right? Not of his psychotic stalker-ghost father? It'd be nice to see some brother-sister relationship between Jennifers&Bruce in any case. They each have one of the best quality books in the Marvel stock, so crossovers would be fun. :)

Peter,

Two points:

1. As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn't get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don't see how September 11 is going to.

2. To be honest, I've found that people outside of New York city feel very differently about September 11 than people who live in the city. New Yorkers were hit harder, in a much more personal way than other Americans.

For most Americans, New York city is a far off, almost mythical place, that they only see about on TV and in movies, and the media is obsessed with. Most TV shows and many movies happen there, and the place is almost not even real. Often, NYC is almost a symbol of what they dislike about big cities, a place they will never go to and never want to go to.

I was teaching at Cornell in upstate NY then, and I quickly saw how differently 9/11 was hitting my students from New York city compared to those of other places. Most of us faculty spent our class periods trying to help and console our traumatized students from NYC.

I talked to colleagues in many other parts of the country, and in much of the country, universities conducted classes as normal on 9/11. Some commented on how untroubled their students seemed. Those students were not thinking "Oh, let this be a nightmare." They were going about their lives as usual, Peter.

Events since then, such as the wars and election, also play out differently. For most Amerians, they have ended up being just more stuff they see on TV. All of the restrictions of people's rights, air travel, etc., well, a big segment of the population hasn't really been touched by that, either. "If you don't fly, and if you don't have anything to hide, what's been the harm?" might summarize their thinking on those issues. As far as the wars go, I've heard people in rural America declare "It's about time we got up off our asses and did something over there. W will teach them a lesson!" These people do not see themselves living in a nightmare. To them, Sepemter 11 was a wake up call, a message that our country needed to get to work. Many Bush voters are happy with how things are going.

I think how your story works for readers depends a whole lot on how all of the events on 9/11 and afterwards have affected them, and how closely their views and experiences match yours.

(I am greatly troubled by the events of 9/11, and I've been more troubled as our nation, having seen the effects of religious extremism and intolerance and hate writ large upon NYC, seems to have somehow missed that lesson entirely....)

Anyway, I look forward to more stories.

"It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country's actions shift faster than the average dreamscape."

That's the reason most of us europeans just stand by the side disbelievingwhen so many different reasons and smear-campaigns are used to justify the war. Most of us would likely be all for toppling dictatures if the humanitarian aspect and the hundreds of thousands of people dying in starvation from UN sanction had been brought up from the start. Instead we get allusions to a secularist Baath party-Fundamentalist Al Quaida connection, WMD's regardless what the incorruptible Hans Blix has found out and _then_ the humanitarian aspect while cynically hurrying up the time of the invasion to fit the election period instead of thoroughly planning it out to avoid casualties (with an august death toll of 100,000 because of this). I mean can you blame people for seriously doubting the intentions of someone that shifty and justifying. This kind of serious matter takes trust and honesty to pull through.

"And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country's recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would--I'd have hoped--leave readers nodding and saying, "Well, there's as accurate a commentary on modern times as I've read lately.""

Don't feel too let down about that. I really liked the poetic resonance, even if I've personally seen extensive reports of horrors far far more shocking than 9/11. The recent tsunami among them. We're still readers though. The fun parts of having you back on the book and doing some great things with it are bound to be a bit more exciting at the moment. We're still caught up in that you're _back_. :)

Heh, I feel kinda stupid for not realizing he was talking about September 11th. For real, I thought he meant Hiroshima or something (granted, I was reading this on the tram and I was like boiling in there from the intense heat, so my mind wasn't all there...)

And of course I didn't think "let this all be a nightmare" either when it was unfolding. I remember being deeply shocked and it did affect me and I thought it was horrible, but at no point did I wish it was just a nightmare because it was all too human. What it made me wonder was why it never happened before (or rather, how on earth it could've happened then, what with the States having the best security agencies anywhere, but let's not start any conspiracy theories :p)

I also don't think it changed the world so much. Or maybe it did, in the sense that relations between the States and just about any other country in the world have gotten far more tense. Considering that what happened was very much alike to the finale of Watchmen (only not involving any fantastic elements) it was interesting that the outcome in reality was the exact opposite of what Alan Moore wrote back then. Instead of joining together, both the world entire and the States themselves appear more divided than ever before. Talk about a road to ruin indeed!

I just can't fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto. Surely anything involving World War II, or many of the great natural disasters since then, are more nightmarific than 9/11? Just because 9/11 happened on American soil doesn't make it a bigger deal than, say, Dresden (which, when you read accounts, is far more dreadful indeed! Supposedly civilized men ordering innocent civilians wiped out in a conscious attempt to have the general public rise up against Hitler is as monstrous an act of terrorism as they come)

Now, all that aside: how was the story? Well, I can't say I liked the ending much. I loved the art, but the writing didn't engage me enough. I was all "oh, so it's Nightmare, big deal". It didn't resonate with me. The flashbacks were interesting though in that I don't know whether they're meant to be real or not.

(What's also interesting is that this is the second time you've given us a device to just go "oh, well that didn't happen because...", since I seem to remember that when Captain Marvel remade the universe, a similar comment was made about continuity screwups like the Absorbing Man thingie being accredited to that event :))

If the flashback is meant to be the truth, are we to take it that Bruce was an actual sociopath and that the US Army thought "hot dang, that kid's useful!" I like my heroes tragic, but don't know if I like them criminally insane :p

In the end, Tempest Fugit was a bizarre little tale that didn't give me many new insights in the Hulk, despite all the flasbackery, simply because I cannot be sure whether they're meant to be taken for real or not (and if they are, then the implications are unsavory, which I dislike). I'll reread the five issues in a row to see if they hold up better taken as a whole though. I did like the "spooky" ending but then I hope it'll be picked up on otherwise it's just another tease, and I liked your Hulk more back in the day when everything was one huge story.

At any rate, there were good moments, it had nice art, it was just a bit clunky and unsatisfying at times. I don't regret that I bought the issues though (something that, sadly, does happen often to me with other titles), so I think all in all it was okay. Not great, but not bad either. Here's hoping your next couple issues won't suck because of House Of M, the event I look forward to least of any event ever, for true :D

I didn't get the impression that Peter had implied that 911 was more devestating than WWII, the bombing of Japan, etc.

While the number of those who were murdered in the towers isn't particularly high when compared to other atrocities committed by man upon man, it did have a monumentally personal effect on a great deal of Americans in that it was committed on our soil by "outsiders". If anyone doubts this for a second, stop to consider the nationistic furvor that has arrisen within the U.S. and the all of the drastic actions that have been justified since.

Isn't it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was? Go to the extreme of using *insert your favorite nightmare here* as the basis for Nightmare's little island adventure, if you have to.

Fred

Nope, Fred. This is Peter's website. You have to expect ranting and raving from his fans. Since Peter does not fit into one repetitive type of writing, you are bound to have arguments from people who prefer one style over the over. Further, he rarely takes the easy way out.

Actually, the big suprise for me is that we have not seen some nut making an anti liberal or bigoted statement on his thread on his Wedding Anniversary.

I just can't fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto.

Just a thought: Unlike the Tsunami and other natural disasters, 9/11 unfolded before our eyes. Many saw the second plane hit the second tower, and many more watched in horror as first one and then the other building fell, live and on TV. I completely agree that in the scale of things, they have been much greater disasters. But collectively watching it live, combined with the absolute certainty that this was deliberately done and not a natural disaster, made it far more horrifying at least for me.

Obviously, the impact of 9/11 on each of us is very personal. At least for myself, I was stunned by how how well PAD captured that moment. My hat is off to him for not only his skill, but for also, in my opinion, paying a tribute to those who lost their lives and the devestating impact it has had in the months and years that have followed.

On a separate note, I am wondering how many of you have forgotten that this was originally planned as a mini-series. A lot of the complaints and issues some of you are mentioning would not be as strong if you knew this was meant to be self contained. I was not expecting him to begin major events that foreshadowed what was ahead. Hints, perhaps, but not more than that. I am not a fan of most mini-series, but I would have felt this was worth my time and money (as I did with Madrox).

That's my opinion. If PAD keep sputting out stories of this quality, I will continue to buy them.

Iowa Jim

"Isn't it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?"

Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter's success.

My mind doesn't simply turn off when I'm being entertained.

And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn't ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn't become Byrne, has he?

When I'm finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it's just as forthcoming and honest.

I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won't happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: "Oh, what perty pictures".

Later,
Chip

I thought Nightmare using 9/11 was a brilliant thing. Not so much for the comentary element PAD mentioned up above, but it's just a really intriguing concept storywise.

Also, if you really don't like the idea of 9/11 happening in the MU...notice, it's refered to a bit indirectly....so think of it as the Onslaught battle instead..or the Baxter Building blowing up..or Avengers disassembled...or whatever.

"Isn't it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?"

>Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter's success.

>My mind doesn't simply turn off when I'm being entertained.

Nor does mine. My intention was not to suggest turning off one's mind. If I want that, I'll reread my old Groo comics.

>And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn't ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn't become Byrne, has he?

Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.

>When I'm finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it's just as forthcoming and honest.

I hope so as well, since feedback provides an opportunity for growth, regardless of whether or not there is agreement. What are you putting out, by the way?

>I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won't happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: "Oh, what perty pictures".

Well Chip, I certainly didn't intend to suggest that you simply look at the perty pictures.... and I believe that it is spelled "pikturs" at that point.

I guess that I read the story and simply assumed that Nightmare, like any other villain who has suffered defeat repeatedly, has learned, grown and assumed new techniques and schemes in order to obtain the goals that he seeks. Perhaps he hadn't considered this plan during the time of the Nazis..... or maybe PAD is the first writer to come up with this story for the funny books. :P

Fred

Hey PAD, did you alter this story when it was decided that Tempest Fugit would be part of the regular comic instead of a mini series?

Fred,

Didn't mean to sound so confrontational. It wasn't my intent, though it certainly sounded that way. The net sucks for communicating.

Seems like we are of like minds, but reacted differently to the issue.

My book is Terran Sandz. Diamond has it and should schedule it soon. You can see some of it at www.onyxcross.com.

Later,
Chip

" As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn't get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don't see how September 11 is going to."

Because there was no one moment in WWII--not even the attack on Pearl Harbor--that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.

PAD

I didn't like this issue. Far too wordy, and the Nightmare thing has been done like 1,001 times before. Bringing 9/11 into it was very forced.

It was a mixed bag to me.

I was a bit disappointed by the “it was just a dream” aspect of the resolution, though I admit the nightmare island twist was a nice variation on it. I also was put at a disadvantage because I wasn't sure of the status quo of Betty, or the current Bruce/Hulk relationship, or which personality was in control of Hulk, or whatever. But that's not your fault, Peter. I just wish they put some type of page or blurb giving the rundown of the current status of everything.

But the revelation that the Hulk was around in Bruce's noggin as early as his high school years was good, as was the near-bombing of the school. I also liked the revelation of how he hooked up with the military.

I too, wasn't as receptive to the 9/11 references as they you might've liked, Peter. Not the fact that the event is acknowledged in the MU-I literally cried when I read that issue of ASM. I just didn't think the way it was used here rang true. As someone said earlier, haven't there been events in the MU that rivaled or surpassed 9/11 in a way that Nightmare could've used to make that island? I think a better idea might've been to say that Nightmare created a tiny stepping stool in the middle of the ocean with some really old event, like the San Francisco fires in the early 1900s (it has to be something that occurred during the age of global communication-so as to emphasize the point that only collective emotions of entire swaths of the human populace would have the necessary effect), and that it slowly grew over the decades with subsequent events like Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust, the invasion of Manhattan by aliens, Galactus and Namor, maybe the destruction of that Russian volcano by Magneto, the Rwandan genocide, the War in Bosnia, AND 9/11. Maybe 9/11 was the final event needed to make the island large enough or “real” enough for Nightmare's purposes, and more recent events like the recent superstorm in Uncanny X-Men would add to its potency. I would've bought that. But the sole attribution of it to 9/11, by itself, didn't ring true to me. I read your explanation of how 9/11 was different, but then I would've liked some line by Nightmare like, “Oh sure, there were others….lots…throughout all of history…but this one was different. It was all concentrated at one specific moment that happened in front of everyone's eyes…it was quite unique in that regard.” This is just me, Peter.

By contrast, your BID column on 9/11, in which you mused what it might've been liked if 9/11 happened in a universe populated by Superman or Batman, was EXTREMELY POWERFUL, and I really wished someone had produced a comic based on that, given all the 9/11 tribute books the industry did.

And yeah, I too didn't buy Magneto or Dr. Doom being there crying. Kingpin I could understand, but Magneto has probably killed far more humans (whom he does not see as his people) than the 3,000 who died on 9/11.

Peter David: A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now."
Luigi Novi: Well no, since I was asleep when it happened, and woke up about an hour or so after it happened, and was quite lucid. My personal disbelief was in trying to comprehend that the “planes” they spoke of where not small single engine planes that have crashed into buildings like the Empire State Building before, but big jet liners, and that the “collapse” they spoke of did not refer to some small portion of the buildings, but to the entire things. I remember walking down to Hoboken that day, taking some shots from Frank Sinatra Boulevard, and wondering why I couldn't see the towers through the smoke, thinking that I should've been able to see the tops of them. I was still not comprehending that the entire buildings were gone.

Don: While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it's their failure ("sometimes fans disappoint me a little") to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.

Peter David: Why? See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.
Luigi Novi: I don't think there's anything wrong with a reader or writer being “disappointed,” but I take issue when one says that the other “cant' see the forest for trees, which I think makes it sound as if the quality of the story is somehow a foregone empirical conclusion, rather than a difference of opinion, or merely a matter of a writer and reader not having connected on the story. A level playing field means the reader might say they didn't care for the story, and the writer might say, “Well, sorry you didn't care for it, but I stand by it.” (This excludes the sort of rude trolling whereby a reader insists on seeing things in the story that weren't there, or accusing the writer of having an intent or message in the story that he really didn't.) I don't think either side should accuse the other of “not getting it,” as I've been criticized at imdb for not caring for a particular movie, or of not seeing the forest for the trees.

I don't think it's a question of not getting your intentions (assuming that's what you meant by not seeing the forest for the trees), but simply that I didn't care for the idea as executed.

Sorry if I disappoint you, Peter. But it's just one story, so don't worry. I still love ya. :-)

But I STILL can't wait for your Spidey! Given your trademark humor, and Spidey's trademark snideness when fighting the bad guys, I'm wondering why you haven't gone back to the character earlier!

And btw, at Wikipedia, the entry for the Hulk once stated that you wrote the book for “almost I decade.” I corrected it, so that it now states you wrote it for almost twelve years.

Fred Chamberlain: Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.
Luigi Novi: Again, I didn't miss the point. I just didn't care for it.

Nice work, Chip. The premise that opens the books is interesting, and the art has a nice minimalist, Ed McGuiness-like evocation to it. Good luck with it!

Thanks, Luigi. If you get a chance to see the full issue, I hope you'll let me know what you think of it.

As far as the subject of this thread, you were far more eloquent than I. Nicely put.

Later,
Chip

>A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now."

Count my hand.

I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn't "let it be a nightmare" but "OK, we are all well and truly screwed" and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately ...

>Every day since then, moreso than ever, we've questioned what's real and what's not, what's lies and what's not, what's made up and what's not.

Exactly.

> "hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?"

The timetable in the Marvel universe would have had to be different. Once the first plane hit, there would have been enough spandex around the initial crash site to help out that it would ensure the second could never hit even if they didn't know the first wasn't an accident - unless the second had hit at almost the exact same time as the first. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

> As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn't get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don't see how September 11 is going to.

Initial reaction was "if you mean the horror of Hiroshima/Nagasaki or the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden, yeah, you have a point" but then thought about it some more and, as Peter and others subsequently pointed out, these events weren't broadcast live to hundreds of millions of people around the globe.

Mr. David - All in all a suitably 'different' story with lots of good points and all very worhtwhile, if only to see Bruce and Betty back together at some point. As was intimated in another of my posts recently [re - MJ and Peter], such relationships are often the only really good thing in an otherwise dismal existence for these characters and it bothers me when the authors feel a need to have that get screwed up, too. It may be like in real life, but there can be such a thing as too much reality here.

"Because there was no one moment in WWII--not even the attack on Pearl Harbor--that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.

PAD"

OK. I got it now. Thanks, Peter.

1There's nothing in HULK #81 that comes out and says "Al Queda destroyed the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 and that's what allowed Nightmare to create the island." It's strongly _implied_ but not explicitly stated. That would've required actually saying "9/11," "Al Queda," etc. That's why I'm willing to let it slide, because in a New York City with the Avengers, the FF, etc., the WTC destruction would not have taken place.

I enjoyed the story. It's nice to have PAD back writing Hulk stories. I did figure out that Nightmare was the villain early on (that one panel with the hand with long fingernails did it) though I forgot that he rides a dark horse.

Great art by Weeks and Palmer.

I am a bit put off by Banner being shown to have been so mentally disturbed in high school. It doesn't entirely jibe with earlier stories -- we've never seen a scene where Banner thinks "The Hulk? They're calling the monster 'the Hulk'? That was the name of the monster that taunted me!" or anything like that.

Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place...please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed - among other recent events, and there was an issue of "Rom" years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died. Just chalk it up to the heroed were doing something else that day, enjoy stories like JMS' and PAD's and move on.

Chip,
Enjoyed your observations and good luck with your book.

What I found interesting is that this is the second time since I first started reading Hulk comics that Nightmare has been messed with the Hulk's mind.

What I don't find interesting is the constant muddling of the Hulk origin. Frankly, I'm sick to death of the idea of Bruce Banner being a troubled soul with a tormented childhood getting hammered into the readership in nearly every issue (I'm exaggerating of course). Bad enough we get that from the Batman comics, but the Hulk?

As a fan, I'd like to see the Hulk rebooted to where it's just the gamma bomb that created him (again) and we can forget all about this MPD/I-blame-my-father nonsense.

PAD: "Because there was no one moment in WWII--not even the attack on Pearl Harbor--that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening."

But isn't the notion as to [u]why[/u] this gave such a shock even scarier? It wasn't so much a blow to the collective conscience of caring about human lives, it was a blow to a sense of elevate, unassailable all-encompassing arrogance of 'being above and more worth than the rest of the world' which few other civilised countries come close to match. The geographical isolation has had a lot of nasty side-effects affecting the public conscience, creating an 'us' against 'them' mentality instead of 'we're all in this together'. I mean even a far back as WWII the republicans stopped every motion from Roosewelt to enter the conflict and put a stop to the horrors until it became apparent that, despite the sea, America wasn't completely unassailable. It became an interference of self-interest rather than altruism, which is a kind of creepy thought. In comparison Europe is a lot more connected and affected by other people's conflicts so we have less dulled down sense of empathy towards other people. It seemed more like america was shocked due to the unusual feeling of being upset about [u]anything[/u] due to being more personally affected. In comparison we're a lot more used to the thought that disaster could strike close to home and get so many detailed reports from disaster-zones such as Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Indonesia... which made that particular humanitarian aspect almost feel trivial in comparison. Not to mention the people who live with monthly or even weekly rates of death of that magnitude. Africa, Asia or the Middle-East would have a very hard time to empathise, given that they've been victims to horrors partially encouraged by ourselves for a very long time. Reagan outfitted Saddam with weapons in the conflict with Iran in the first place and that resulted in round 2 million deaths following it. Many people still like to believe that the conflict in Vietnam was carried out in an acceptable way despite 1 million local deaths and support of a corrupted dictator (that's not to say the opposing side was any better of course) to avoid getting rid of fanatic national pride instead of putting priority on people not nations. The level of deaths indirectly created by the western world and US in particular has been of a staggering effect, but the difference between US and European citisens is that we at least get a more thorough investigation of them and don't seem nearly as dulled off.

Starwolf: "I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn't "let it be a nightmare" but "OK, we are all well and truly screwed" and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately ..."

Yeah, that was my immediate reaction as well. 'Oh shit, this will loosen all kinds better left burried tensions and self-righteous bloodthirst from both sides, which the skillful will take advantage of and inflame. Just how far will this go?' Was my initial thought. The tsunami-disaster occured in front of my eys as well and had far more of an immediate shock regarding the amount of lives lost.

A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now."

That would be me, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the fact that I'm English (and have never been to the USA). Don't get me wrong - it was a bad thing, and I sympathise with everyone who was affected by it. However, I grew up hearing about the IRA blowing things up, and this initially seemed like more of the same. I'd never heard of Al Queda before that, and I was only dimly aware of the Twin Towers, so when I saw the news on a website ("buildings destroyed, 6 people known to be dead") it just wasn't that much of a shock. Obviously the death toll turned out to be rather higher than that, but I just found out the extra information gradually, so there was no one moment of "Oh my god!" for me.

More generally, I remember one of PAD's early Hulk stories, about a woman who's attacked by a serial killer, and says something like "Now I'm one of the 'other people' that these things only ever happen to". And I get the impression (although I could be wrong) that lots of Americans had the same attitude towards terrorism - i.e. it's just something that happens in other countries, which meant that the event had much more of an impact.

As for the latest issue of Hulk overall, honestly I'd have to say that it didn't really grab me much. i'm sure it will work better if I re-read the whole storyline in one go, but as it was my memory of previous issues is a bit hazy. Any chance of getting recap pages again, like "Thunderbolts" is doing? And as part of that, I was a bit confused by what had actually happened. So, I'm happy to keep reading new issues, but this didn't make any great impression on me.

One minor nitpick - when Nightmare went through his sequence of fake identities, how do we actually know that the final one was the real one? It seems that we only have Daydream's word for it, and since most of the creatures on the island were under the villain's control, that's not entirely conclusive... In a way, this reminds me of the "Smoke and Mirrors" Spider-man storyline (back during the Clone Saga), where the Jackal kept giving misinformation, and I wound up saying "Fine, whatever, I'm not going to believe any of it until I see real proof". That said, I don't have any strong feelings about Nightmare as a villain, so I'm not fussed about whether he really was the one behind this whole thing or not.

-------
You know...sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.

I wrote the sequence--including Nightmare's speech--because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, "Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now."

Every day since then, moreso than ever, we've questioned what's real and what's not, what's lies and what's not, what's made up and what's not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country's actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.

And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country's recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would--I'd have hoped--leave readers nodding and saying, "Well, there's as accurate a commentary on modern times as I've read lately."

Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.

PAD
-------------

*puts hand up*

I've been trying for days to work out a way of pointing this out, but Paul O'Brien's done it for me now:

--------------------
http://thexaxis.com/capsules/29May05.htm
I'm also underwhelmed by the presentation of 9/11 as an event so shockingly unique in human history that it allows Nightmare to get a foothold in the real world for the first time. Don't get me wrong - 9/11 is horrible, of course, but it's scarcely unique. It just happens to be an atrocity which has particular emotional resonance for Americans. And that's fair enough, but let's keep it in perspective. Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It's an attitude of "This happened to us, so it counts more". Perhaps it works for Americans, but it certainly doesn't work for me.
-----------

I'm not American, and I didn't watch TV thinking "let this be a dream" and don't know anyone who did.

Paul's criticism seems to be that it's Amero-centric, and I guess that's a legitimate reason for him as a non-American to dislike it... but shouldn't it be expected that writing will reflect the world view of the writer? I mean, I read comics from British writers and see a very British POV in them, but that's par for the course.

PAD, I think I am misreading you considering your defense of World War II not being enough to establish Nightmare a foothold in our world, but would it be a reasonable interpretation to say that what gave Nightmare the foothold following 9/11 was the collective refusal by a large portion of the American people to accept reality and instead yearn for a supposedly happier deception from their leaders?

I am astonished that a large number of people who I would guess would be in agreement with your politics are not seeing how your portrayal of Nightmare is showing your agreement with them.

"Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It's an attitude of "This happened to us, so it counts more"."

No, it's really not that at all, and I find the comment extremely offensive.

No one is denying mankind's long history of committing atrocities, one upon the other.

However, if Paul O'Brien or anyone for that matter would like to trot out a previous instance of a single act of war (upon a people who weren't at war and were thus caught completely off-guard) unfolding real time, as millions upon millions watched...in a scenario that involved neither bombs nor bullets, but instead a scenario so much the stuff of fiction that it had shown up in an episode of "Lone Gunmen"...then I would very much like them to trot it out.

9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don't work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it's damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.

To try and dismiss that as "parochial," or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I'm just a dumb-ass xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.

PAD

The more I think about it, the more I think that it takes monumental effort to miss the point of Nightmare's speech. To come back with, "Oh, but wasn't Hiroshima traumatic?" "Oh, but what about this disaster or that disaster?"

I re-read the speech, and my God, how can ANYONE misinterpret it to the degree that I'm seeing? It's RIGHT THERE:

"A domain that I was able to establish several years ago, one fine September morning, when the line between reality and fantasy irrevocably blurred. It was remarkable. Countless people, watching in shared horror, over and over again, rubbing the sleep from their eye, gazing in stupefaction…thinking that they were watching a scene ripped from fiction. As if disaster movies had crossed into the realm of actuality, fantasy given substance."

It's not simply that lots of people died. It's not simply that it was traumatic. It's not just that it happened to us (I mean, really, you really, really missed the point if you think that was my reasoning.) It's that it really, really DID blur the line between fantasy and reality for the whole of human consciousness in a way that no event I can think of previously ever did. And when that line was blurred to such a huge degree, at EXACTLY THE SAME MOMENT FOR MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF HUMANS, it caused a sea-change in the way we perceived the world around us and Nightmare slipped through.

And since then, lies and deception and confusion as to who's alive, who's dead, and whose war is justified or unjustified, is our every day existence. So we live day to day, trying to figure out what to believe, what not to believe, and what parts of our recent history are true and accurate and which aren't.

Anyone who wants to write that off as some simplistic "Peter David's just retconning some recent Hulk stories" is welcome to do so. But, again...point hugely missed.

PAD

PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.

"PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald."

It was shocking, certainly, but assassinations are simply nothing new...especially considering the President had been assassinated shortly before. Certainly not enough, I would think, to blur the border between reality and fantasy.

PAD

The only thing that would probably come even REMOTELY close would be the Challenger disaster, and even that can't really stack up against the whole world watching the Twin Towers fall on every television channel, radio station, and on the internet, in real time.

-Rex Hondo-

PAD: Again, not disagreeing with you, but as I believe the URL I included shows, the television coverage following the assassination of JFK is in my opinion the equal of the coverage from all media following 9/11. To quote the article, "In truth, as much as the Kennedy assassination itself, the on-air murder of the president's alleged assassin creates an almost vertiginous imbalance in televiewers, a sense of American life out of control and let loose from traditional moorings."

The closest analogy to "where were you when 9/11" occurred is almost certainly "where were you when JFK was shot."

PAD: Sorry, the URL is:

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/K/htmlK/kennedyjf/kennedyjf.htm

John P."

> I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.

My impression from reading quotes from many people and even talking with relatives who were around at the time was that the immediate response of many was "Good, the $#%@#% got what was coming to him.". This was, of course, before everyone began to consider the many implications of that act and began to realize all of the unanswered questions that Oswald's death would leave.

Fred

Peter,

You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn't. Since I'm fairly certain this isn't the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don't.

Getting flustered with those of us that didn't, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn't do much to indear you in our eyes--- or my eyes, at least. Granted, I'm only one reader, and you've earned thousands upon thousands uon thousands, so who gives a crap if I decide to bale on your future work? I collect to be entertained or to learn, not to be told I'm stupid.

You did your best. Lay off the reader, and continue doing what you do so well.

Later,
Chip

"You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn't. Since I'm fairly certain this isn't the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don't."

Oh, I know that. Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity. Some of the best work of my life is stuff that the bulk of fans either didn't bother to purchase or read and just shrugged and said, "I don't get it."

"Getting flustered with those of us that didn't, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn't do much to indear you in our eyes--- or my eyes, at least."

Well, number one, I wasn't flustered. I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things, and I was pissed off because I'm essentially being accused of being indifferent to the loss of lives in other countries during wartime simply because they're not Americans, or thinking that American lives are more important. Apparently some reviewers are oblivious to the fact that people of all nationalities died that day in those towers...it was called "World" for a reason, and that--to my mind--was part of the world-wide impact that it had. To sit there and say that it's simply an American thing denotes far more conservative nationalism than anything remotely expressed in the comic.

As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic? Not only should I simply nod my head when I think people mischaracterize me or my work, but I should also carefully weigh whether I should express my opinion against business considerations. I mean, there ARE people out there who do that. Who are very circumspect in everything they say or do publicly because they don't want to risk offending potential readers.

Me, I think I prefer to say what I think.

PAD

"Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity."

Isn't that the case for alot of artists? Even at my day job, the designs I feel are the most original, effective and innovative are all but ignored next to the formulaic (sp?) crap my bosses prefer.

"I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things..."

Potatoe, patatoe (or however the heck it's spelled). But I think I know what you mean. But I think even that is a common occurence for someone like you who has, what, a billion readers. You still don't change any minds berating or arguing with your few decentors.

"As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic?"

I think this too is a difference of perspective. I love this medium, but view it as a business to put food on the table. I don't argue with those who don't get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the "costumer is always right" model of business; second, it's a bloody waste of time. I've never changed a mind, and I don't recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I'd rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it'll be well recieved.

But, you know, your success more than qualifies that you know what your doing, so this is little more than an IMO moment.

Tanks for the discussion. I enjoy this stuff.

Later,
Chip

"I don't argue with those who don't get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the "costumer is always right" model of business; second, it's a bloody waste of time. I've never changed a mind, and I don't recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I'd rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it'll be well recieved."

Well, first of all, the customer isn't always right. Very frequently, the customer is dead wrong. Stan used to point out, when the customers would deluge him with letters begging for all of Peter Parker's problems to be solved, that if he did that, Peter would no longer be interesting. And he was right.

And which customers are we talking about? The customers who say I should be writing stuff that's new and different? The customers who refuse to purchase anything of mine new and different?

I fully understand that the customer is "always right" (at the risk of sounding like Obi-Wan) from a certain point of view. Essentially, everyone is right in their own opinion.

But I'm not a retailer out to sell hand cream or capri pants, determined to play to the buyer's vanity by assuring them that, hell yes, those black stretch pants absolutely make their asses look remarkably slim when, in fact, they should stay away from the seashore since their butts are going to affect the tides no matter what color they're wearing.

I'm a writer. I try to make people think about things they haven't considered before, not massage their egos or assure them that they're always right. You know the customer isn't always right. I know it too. It's a lie. A convenient excuse for shrugging and smiling. I neither shrug nor smile, and I do not give up. Ever.

To say that you think it's a waste of time and that you've never changed someone's mind shows, to me, two things. First, you set the bar for achievement way too low.

And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs...a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren't changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.

And I'll take that. I'll take that.

You know the difference between you and me, Chip? The way I see it...I'm Johnny Appleseed. You're the guy behind the register selling fruit.

PAD

"...I'm Johnny Appleseed. You're the guy behind the register selling fruit."

Very funny. You should be a writer.

I prefer discussion over beratement. As I think this discussion illustrates, I don't just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions. Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you're full of crap. At least for me, I've learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum.

You push my buttons and keep me on my toes. I enjoy that.

There's no price tag on those apples, by the way, sir. Perhaps if you brought me a bag you hadn't smashed to a pulp, sir.

Later,
Chip

"I prefer discussion over beratement."

Can't we do both?

Seriously, I don't feel as if I was berating you. I think I made a logical series of observations based upon your own words. If you don't like where the conclusion went, well...maybe you weren't well-served by the sentiment you expressed.

"As I think this discussion illustrates, I don't just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions."

Okay, but since that was never at issue, I'm not sure why you're mentioning it.

"Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you're full of crap. At least for me, I've learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum."

So you say. But saying one has an open mind doesn't give them any kind of moral superiority to one who has strong opinions. There are certain things I have an open mind about, and certain things about which I've made up my mind. If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn't know his mind about any things. And although you contend now that you think I'm full of crap, a year, two years from now...you may realize I was right. So I'll take those odds.

PAD

Actually, I never said you were full of crap, OR that I was morally superior. I said "even IF...".

At least from my vantage point, I can be both confident in my strong opinions AND open minded.

And as far as the berating thing...

After re-reading the posts, I agree (except for the cashier jockey comment--- if I used emoticons, I'd have a wink here), you weren't berating. Challenging, yes. Berating, no. I especially like the level playing field comment.

We'll agree to disagree on the issue this thread is about. Unless you want to challenge the thinking of my original, issue-based comments...

Still dreamin' of more Fallen Angel.

Thanks for the exchange,
Chip

1
>>And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs...a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren't changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.

--Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you've studied some aspects of human nature in your time.

But seriously.......

Will we be seeing more of the HORSE?

PAD,
I agree with the comments you have made on this thread more than any I can remember. While sometimes I feel you get a LITTLE too hot, that is not the case at all this time. Particularly your reaction to the "Customer is always right" comment. Yes, the customer is often dead wrong.As you say, who are you supposed to assume is right, those who want you to write the way they're used to or those who want you to try different things.
Two examples that immediately spring to mind are :
A.) Readers at the time surely would have voted to keep Gwen Stacy alive three decades ago. But her death was one of the most powerful Spidey stories of all time and was a true watershed moment for the character. It allowed Peter Parker to grow and still has resonance to this day.
B.) Star Trek fans, if given a vote, likely would not have let Spock die in "Wrath of Khan"; they would have brought back the old crew instead of launching "Next Generation"; they would not have had peace with the Klingons or had one in Starfleet. Yet these and many other developments allowed the Trek mythos to grow and prosper.
Finally,"If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn't know his mind about any things."
Couldn't have said it better myself.

PAD: 9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don't work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it's damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.

Yeah, that's pretty much my understanding as well. Many people get the concepts of warranted intervention or one carried out due to lots of veils and excuses mixed up. I'm personally pro-intervention, but the motivations and means used must be pure.

PAD: To try and dismiss that as "parochial," or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I'm just a dumb-ass xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.

I didn't mean to come across that way, so I'm sorry and apologise if I did and offended you. You've always seemed like an extremely ethical fellow on top of being one of my favourite writers.

My viewpoint in the replies (to stimulate me into a musing mood can be a bad idea) wasn't intended to be seen as you personally not caring. I actually liked the powerful poetic notion of reality and dream getting blurred, even if I'm still caught up in the fact tat you're actually back on the book and very curious about that.

However, from an outsider perspective you do eventually get to view the mechanics of american society and public mindset as a whole in a certain way when it's seemingly consistently easily manipulated into ruthless self-righteousness due to national pride and comparatively minor incidents, while those in the big world outside go left unnoticed.

On the other hand the recent tsunami-disaster had us citisens more informed, worried and caring about people at large than I've ever seen them, so I see some very positive development as well. In that respect at least the incident may have served as a wake-up call? Oh well, rambling alert. All the best in any case. I hope my previous lack of eloquence didn't sour you on somehow addressing the questions raised in the first two posts. :\

In an attempt to clarify: It's more about the concept itself of 'Why would such a comparatively 'minor' incident be able to create such an all-encompassing self-explaining urge for paranoid defence at all costs when much bigger events don't?'. The effect of blurred lines has become apparent and I had a strong suspicion about a lot of people trying to use it that way right from the start, but _how_ could it have such a profound impact?

It does fit into a theme of perceived elevated and apart position from the rest of the World and somehow already sufficiently developed superior ethical standards, which give a higher right without need for further learning and input. Regardless that the corruption and violence quota or general humanitarian issues compared to other countries may warrant a serious look-over until considering that the standards may not be set high enough. The _fundaments themselves_ for this incident to have such a profound shock and enormous consequences as it did do indeed seem to be built on a large dose of xenophobia, arrogant pride and jingoistic entitlement. That's not to generalise far too much and say that this is somehow an all-encompassing trait, but it seems very present in a lot of people. There's a big difference between recognising that and somehow uniformly directing 'inherited guilt' through association as a mere citizen though. You're definitely not a xenophobe or uncaring about other people. I didn't at all take it that way before I somehow got stimulated into entering this discussion (which wasn't exactly what I originally had in mind when intending to give you praise for the new run, but I consistently seem to let curiousity and impulse get the better of me) and I didn't mean to imply it. On the other hand on the surface itwould seem that this kind of severe widespread reaction should be provoked by far more large-scale incidents than a couple of terrorists showing their complete lack of weapons resources by hijacking two planes and using them as weapons. Oh well, even more rambling, but I hope I made it a bit clearer.

--"Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you've studied some aspects of human nature in your time."

I read a bunch of psych texts and books on human development when I first started writing the Hulk years ago. A lot of it stayed with me, plus I think most writers are observers of human nature.

PAD

PAD: "Every day since then, moreso than ever, we've questioned what's real and what's not, what's lies and what's not, what's made up and what's not."

To steal from an old joke, that's easy -- you can tell when you're being lied to when George W. Bush's lips move. :-)

--R.J.

Well,

I haven't really had the patience to read through all of the comments on this thread, and I know I'm pretty late, so maybe someone has already pointed this out, but, from the posts I did read, I guess people who complain about PAD's use of 9/11 in Hulk #81 aren't focusing on the main argument behind this specific plot point. Most readers apparently see it as a cheap bridge between the world of fiction and the real world, but, to me, that's missing the point entirely.

To me, this is a classic comics moment, because it goes way beyond the events of 11/09. Maybe I can say that unashamed because I'm not American, and, sure, the terrorist attacks have a different meaning for most of the other readers on this blog than it does for me, but the fact is Nightmare's speech is not (only) about that specific day.

The whole thing is about a different way of life, a different vision of the world, one that had been forming long before that took place. And those events simply accelerated and solidified this new perception of the world, as we now have it, not as individuals, but as a collectivity.

The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don't know exactly what you can trust as the 'truth'. The very definition of 'truth' has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. You could argue the notion of 'one reality' doesn't even exist anymore, and it's being replaced by individual realities.

I mean, speaking specifically of the 9/11 events, it has a different meaning across the world, depending on where you stand, geographically. I can mourn the death of thousands caused by an act of insanity, but I can't feel threatened or disillusioned as an American did that day. The same way someone who lives in LA has experienced it differently from a NY resident, so on and so forth.

We live in a different world now than when these rigid notions of truth and reality were created. It may be disheartening to some people to see how these perceptions may have become individualistic through the years, but, to me, that's exactly the beauty of PAD's idea: it's not just a comment on one specific real-life event, but more of a comment on a new social, collective arrangement.

Anyway, this post is a pretty shallow attempt at a much deeper and more critical subject than my words would make one believe. Still, I felt I had to say that I love how PAD analyses the way the Western civilization has been restructuring itself for the past years.

By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back... or perhaps even the best use ever. The dialogue in the book is pretty self-explanatory as to why it makes so much sense, so I won't waste time explaining it all over again.

This is meaningful comics, so thanks PAD.

Oh, sorry for the crappy English, but, again, I'm not American.

Cheers

"Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place...please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed - among other recent events, and there was an issue of 'Rom' years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died."

Just saying... the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes live neither in Genosha nor Canada.... so your examples are really stupid and quite irrelevent. They live in the same city as the place that was destroyed.

Aside from that, we could or could not assume at our leisure that the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes were busy during 9/11/1 or they actually stopped the attack. Either way, ASM #36 was not canonical.

I have no opinion about the story; I raise my hand.

Are all of PAD's Hulk issues still canonical?

"The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don't know exactly what you can trust as the 'truth'. The very definition of 'truth' has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. "

I would of course argue that the lack of information in days gone by made it much easier to manipulate people, while those with high-level analytical skills can now at least pick up different resources and form a pattern. Pf course that takes energy most people can't aware... Still I'm swedish. Along with Norway I live in one of the two by far least corrupted, most humanitarian society on Earth if the statitics are to be believed. We're not used to almost anyone in either the press or the government having anything less than noble ideals driving them, so the notion of complete distrust for any form of information creating conflict in a severely biased pattern is hard to relate to except at an abstract level and through experience of talking to a few hundred seemingly thoroughly evil nutcases online.

"By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back... or perhaps even the best use ever. "

Ditto on that. I remember him used well during the arc around the Secret Wars, Mark Waid's Captain America run and this (but I haven't read much Doctor Strange so what do I know?)

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