PeterDavid.net

Words are like a playground for him. He's on a different level.

He's a master, that one. I still find his reading of "Being An Experiment Upon Strictly Scientific Lines.." to be one of the single funniest things I've ever heard, due almost entirely to the phrasing. ("Drawn fucking typewriters at dawn" and the like.)

TWL

Not that Neil Gaiman isn't a master wordsmith, but I think that particular turn-of-phrase came from that New York Times Sunday piece blasting President Bush the Sunday before the election, where some White House official sneered to an interviewer at how they had no need to appeal to the "reality-based community". It was a pretty amazing article in its own right- I'm pretty sure it came that day. I can dig it up if people are curious. But then again, maybe NG doesn't read the New York Times- I don't know.

Isn't it kind of funny that with the exception of the putrid appearances of Miracleman, Todd has not really attempted to use the stuff that he "purchased" when he bought Eclipse. I wonder if he believes that he has no rights to the material. The basis for this is the lack of reprints. I would think that Airboy digest reprints would be a decent sell.

It's a great line that could be applied in many places. I often feel that the Bush adminstration's statements are trying to distance themselves from the reality-based community as well.

"He lied." "He's fulla crap." "He doesn't know what he's talking about." "That's bull."

vs.

"Beyond that, he's also distancing himself from the reality-based community in his description of the result of the legal case."

For ten points, which of these was written by someone raised in New Jersey, and which was written by someone raised in Britain? :-)

Not to detract from your writing skills Peter, but I feel that the best writers of the English language are the people who created it.

What Garth Ennis says of the Irish, I'll let you decide

Careful, Tyg -- I was born and raised in New Jersey, too. :-)

My cardinal rule of thumb is that dissing NJ is forbidden for those who have not lived there ... and, of course, compulsory for those who have.

TWL

No offense to Todd (and I really like his dad who's a really nice guy), but anyone who goes out and buys $3 Million baseballs has most likely been somewhat removed from the reality-based community for quite some time. That's reality. So Neil's assertion doesn't exactly ring the astonishment bell.

I don't know Tim, I notice that all the toll roads, bridges & tunnels between New Jersey & other states are one way tolls where you pay to get out of New Jersey.

>;)

"No offense to Todd (and I really like his dad who's a really nice guy), but anyone who goes out and buys $3 Million baseballs has most likely been somewhat removed from the reality-based community for quite some time."

God knows I've busted on Todd about a lot of stuff, but never really on that. It may sound strange to say, but it was $3 mill well spent. When one considers how much it costs to mount a commercial or publicity campaign under normal circumstances, Todd got gargantuan bang for his buck. For a while you couldn't turn on any TV or radio without them talking about him, plus it got him huge contacts and contracts for his toy line.

What I do think was inappropriate was his not discussing it with his wife first.

PAD

Why, is she more of a Sosa fan?

Ryan,

I would be interested to read that article if you can turn it up without spending a lot of time on it.

It fits with everything else we've seen about Todd McFarlane that he would spend that much money without at least telling his wife his plan before hand.

gee that's just super

PAD: "What I do think was inappropriate was his not discussing it with his wife first."

See now that's the type of smart, writer-type thing that gets your point across and gets you points with your wife.

Stuff that I as a newly wed still need to learn.
(I'm still paying for that line I put down here quite a while ago that the whole Bill Clinton/Monica oral-office incident didn't affect me in any way or even give my wife any ideas :)

I suspect that Neil may have taken his lead from the legislature of his birth where it's against the rules of the Parliament to call another Mmember of Parliament a "liar", so you end up with comments like "with every utterance he finds himself further from the realm of Ma'at." [Egyptian Goddess of Truth]

American friends of mine whohave watched the proceedings of parliament in the UK have always expressed their astonishment at both the limitations as to what can be said overtly and the ability MPs show in what they can get away with covertly.

Here's a citation on the Bush aide. According to the Ron Suskind article:

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

Maybe Todd's closer to a reality-SHOW-based community.

-- Ken from Chicago

P.S. America didn't make the English language, it made the language better (with turbo boost, remote control access and a keen mp3 player) and natch cosntantly updating with new patches available for free downloading and installing.

// I don't know Tim, I notice that all the toll roads, bridges & tunnels between New Jersey & other states are one way tolls where you pay to get out of New Jersey. //

We like to think of it as paying to get into New York.

I'd rather pay to stay OUT of New York.

But seriously, Todd's loopier than your average slinky if he thinks his excuses are gonna beat Gaiman's purple prose.

But it takes really big balls to make the kind of claims Todd does. I should know. I bought some at the local toy store and now I feel like saying whatever I want.

aaron:

>But seriously, Todd's loopier than your average slinky if he thinks his excuses are gonna beat Gaiman's purple prose.

When I read this, I was immediately reminded of the less-than-spectacular debate between Todd and Peter that took place over 12 years ago (man, I'm getting old). From the initial article and But I digress column and subsequent transcripts, it appeared that a public debate was set up at a Con to settle ongoing disagreements (re:Image, etc) and PAD arrived expecting a public debate while Todd showed up just looking to entertain. McFarlane batted away any real questions or legitimate discussion with jokes that fell flat or less than stellar responses, while Peter responded with very well thought out answers and comments.

Fred

"McFarlane batted away any real questions or legitimate discussion with jokes that fell flat or less than stellar responses, while Peter responded with very well thought out answers and comments."

And as a direct result, I went on to international fame and fortune and am now a multimillionaire with my own toy company while Todd McFarlane faded into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

PAD

Isn't it kind of funny that with the exception of the putrid appearances of Miracleman, Todd has not really attempted to use the stuff that he "purchased" when he bought Eclipse. I wonder if he believes that he has no rights to the material. The basis for this is the lack of reprints. I would think that Airboy digest reprints would be a decent sell.

I think that Eclipse was, in some cases, doing series where they owned first serial rights and the writers could pick up and leave. Because if I'm not mistaken doesn't Mark Evanier control some of the rights to DNAgents?

>>> I don't know Tim, I notice that all the toll roads, bridges & tunnels between New Jersey & other states are one way tolls where you pay to get out of New Jersey.

---

Remember -- and I say this as a native -- we're talking about the state whose legislature was once right on the brink of voting to make Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" the official state song of New Jersey, until it was finally pounded into their heads that the whole point of the song was that young people were desperate to get the hell out of New Jersey.

And as a direct result, I went on to international fame and fortune and am now a multimillionaire with my own toy company while Todd McFarlane faded into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

Well, that's what you get for not catering to the masses. :P

Remember -- and I say this as a native -- we're talking about the state whose legislature was once right on the brink of voting to make Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" the official state song of New Jersey, until it was finally pounded into their heads that the whole point of the song was that young people were desperate to get the hell out of New Jersey.

What, you mean they don't have the line "Baby this town rips the bones from your back
It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap
We gotta get out while we're young" in the state bruchure?

Fred... If that was what I thought it was... THAT hurt. A comparison to Todd... (shudder)

What, you expect coherance at 6:30 am?

Really, Todd's ongoing arguments are the equivilant of a train wreck. You know it's horrible, but you can't bring yourself to look away.

For a less cliche example, see all anti-comics legislation of the past five years... Although, I WILL give them Carnage.

If only so we never see him again.

Neil linked to the NYT article ages ago and commented on what a vexing phrase "reality-based community" is, so yes, he's purposefully invoking it in this case.

Actually, no, despite common restatement of this (and in fact I've been misled by it in the past) "Born to Run" was not going to be named Official State Song. There was a bill drafted to name it (officially) the "unofficial theme of our state's youth", but that bill never even made it to a vote. More details here: http://www.welcometoasburypark.com/borntorun121.shtml

Todd has worked on and planned to produce other Eclipse-related items, such as a Black Terror series where work was done toward a couple issues and then scotched. Eclipse owned some rights to some of what they produced, but not all. As a publisher, I've done well more with printed material from About Comics than Todd has. So far, we have issued four trade paperbacks made up of material that originally saw print at Eclipse -- Kurt Busiek & James Fry's The Liberty Project, the Lela Dowling adaptation of Alice's Adventures In Wonderland (released simply as Alice), Evanier and Meugniot's DNAgents, Evanier and Spiegle's Crossfire -- plus a pamphlet-format one-shot that was all Eclipse-published material (Gerber and Colan's Stewart the Rat), and usage of Eclipse-published material in the pamphlet Wild About Comics, and one script for a story that was originally published by Eclipse in Panel One: Comic Book Scripts by Top Writers.

--New Jersey born Nat

Re: the "Born to Run" as state song -- I can't be the only one who remembers a great stand-up routine from Robert Wuhl riffing on that exact bit.

I don't know Tim, I notice that all the toll roads, bridges & tunnels between New Jersey & other states are one way tolls where you pay to get out of New Jersey.

It's not that. Delaware is worrying about being overrun. :-)

TWL

"breaks me up"? Wha Huh? Did those goshdarn kids change it from "cracks me up" without telling me?

We like to think of it as paying to get into New York.

and

It's not that. Delaware is worrying about being overrun. :-)

As a native Pennsylvanian, I'd just like to point out that the toll bridges work the same here: Free to enter NJ, pay to get the hell out.

Interestingly enough, when I attended a conference in Trenton*, I noticed something interestinng: A lot of NJ state workers live on our side of the Delaware river and commute to Trenton, whereas PA has a residency requirement to work in state government.

*Incidentally, is it possible to have an entire city declared unfit for human habitation and torn down? You should look into that for Trenton. Damn, what a cesspool. :P

Tim, I get to make fun of Jersey because I've lived in Philly.

West Philly at that.

Which reminds me of a newspaper article I saw shortly after I moved to LA from Philly. USC was recruiting a couple of athletes from Philly, and they were being given a tour of the campus and its surroundings. The guide was apologizing for the general area around the campus, explaining that it was easy to get to better places, etc. One of the recruits said, in what I'm sure was cleaned up for the article quote languagee, "Shoot, in Philly this is a suburb".

Tim, I get to make fun of Jersey because I've lived in Philly.

As Tom Servo would say, "Ah, well, of course, that makes perfect se-wha-HUH?"

And to Den -- I've thought for years that Trenton was ... not a wonderful place. I'm from *northern* NJ. :-)

TWL

Besides, calling it "Jersey" is rather like using "Frisco" when you're in the SF Bay area. It's good way to ensure you end up in the actual bay...

TWL

Tim Lynch:
"Besides, calling it "Jersey" is rather like using "Frisco" when you're in the SF Bay area. It's good way to ensure you end up in the actual bay..."

Hi Tim,

I'm originally from the San Francisco area. Pretty cool city, overall, and I recomend Pier 39 highly.

But when some dick refers to it as Frisco because they think it's cool... Alright, now I'm pissed!

I think it's time I found an old rusted guitar string that I can use to re-wire the voice box of the next person who says Friso, Jersey, 'Bama, or any other bitch-shortened form of a proper name!

Temper... flaring...
Rage... building...
Blood vessels...

Um... Can I borrow a mop?

;)

And as a direct result, I went on to international fame and fortune and am now a multimillionaire with my own toy company while Todd McFarlane faded into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

Everybody finds their own way. And then we die.

Tim,
'Tim, I get to make fun of Jersey because of Jersey because I've lived in Philly.'

"As Tom Servo would say, 'Ah, well, of course, that makes perfect se-wha-HUH?"

As one who has also lived in Philly, I believe what Tom Galloway is saying is that having lived in the city that has made booing an art form and even infamously booed SANTA CLAUS once at the Vet, being from Philly means you have a born (or eventually transfused) right to make fun of EVERYTHING. It's in the blood :)

Aaron Thall,
"For a less cliche example, see all anti-comics legislation of the past five years. Although, I WILL give them Carnage. If only so we never see him again."

Well, based on the events in "New Avengers", Bendis may have granted you your wish. It appears that the Sentry took carnage out into space and ripped him in half!
Of course, if he "gets better", you realize that we can't GIVE the anti-comics extremists anything, because once we concede on that character, what about The Joker, who is also a killing machine? Or The Punisher? Or even less-profile characters like Carrion?
I will grant you I do think the Carnage character is completely vile, but a good wtiter like J.M. DeMatteis has done god stories with him. To me, he represents a test for Spider-Man that has yet to be fully explored.
That being: If this villain not only kills when he has to, or even often, but is CERTAIN to kill innocents every time he breaks free from 'momentary' prison, is Spider-Man, in effect, killing people by refusing to kill him?
I, for one, believe he should.

Re: euphamisms for lying. I always liked the one that was fashionable in the latter days of Margaret Thatcher (AKA the Evil Old Bat) where politicians described each other as "being economical with the truth".

And to Den -- I've thought for years that Trenton was ... not a wonderful place. I'm from *northern* NJ. :-)

Like that's any better? I got in-laws in Linden, Rahway, and Elizabeth. Aside from Cape May, does Jersey have any towns that don't make people want to kill themselves?

It's not just Philly. All Pennsylvanians claim as our right to dog Jersey. It's the only thing we have in common with New Yorkers.

Oh, and Mitch -

Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco
Frisco

In speaking of British things, the new Doctor Who series started in the UK. There's a site that is going to have on it the episodes after they air. The site is:

http://zap.to/newdoctorwho

Just thought I'd let you know, PAD.

"God knows I've busted on Todd about a lot of stuff, but never really on that. It may sound strange to say, but it was $3 mill well spent. When one considers how much it costs to mount a commercial or publicity campaign under normal circumstances, Todd got gargantuan bang for his buck. For a while you couldn't turn on any TV or radio without them talking about him, plus it got him huge contacts and contracts for his toy line.

What I do think was inappropriate was his not discussing it with his wife first. "

I'm not privy to the deals that resulted from the publicity so I can't speak to the value of the stunt in those terms. I don't believe that he was doing so badly with the toy line anyway that he'd need to pull something sensational for that specific reason. I do know that most everyone I talked to at the time did indeed have Todd on their minds.....but mostly as a nut-case (Their opinions). In fact as I recall the news items on it, these also treated the purchase as a curiosity and the whole thing faded within a couple of days.

During the ensuing times when the record was eventually broken again the common musing was that Todd would need to go out and hire Tonya Harding to whack a knee so that the record wouldn't be broken and render his balls worthless. Now there's an interesting vision.....Todd walking around bemoaning his worthless balls.....

Here's a link with the whole of the Ron Suskind article for those who were curious and didn't see it back when. Just for informational purposes - not to derail this thread.

http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/sloth/2004-10-16b.html

The esteemed Mr. David said:

"God knows I've busted on Todd about a lot of stuff, but never really on that. It may sound strange to say, but it was $3 mill well spent. When one considers how much it costs to mount a commercial or publicity campaign under normal circumstances, Todd got gargantuan bang for his buck."

Really? It did get him on Howard Stern's radio show to show off his custom Howard Stern doll. It possibly got some baseball fans to notice it. But as a PR person, I measure its effectiveness in the actual results - people coming to the con, buying the CD, whatever. I doubt he sold ten more copies of "Spawn" that month. It's very much like Michael Jackson's hyperbaric chamber...or, if the rumors are true, his playing around with kids in that infamous documentary film. PR that does nothing for the subject is bad PR - and yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as bad PR.

Jerome,

As one who has also lived in Philly, I believe what Tom Galloway is saying is that having lived in the city that has made booing an art form and even infamously booed SANTA CLAUS once at the Vet, being from Philly means you have a born (or eventually transfused) right to make fun of EVERYTHING. It's in the blood :)

Ah. Could be, but so far as I can tell that just puts him firmly in the "people who've lived in glass houses..." category. :-)

And Den:

Like that's any better? I got in-laws in Linden, Rahway, and Elizabeth. Aside from Cape May, does Jersey have any towns that don't make people want to kill themselves?

Montclair (well, okay, except for the property taxes). Dover. Rockaway. Cedar Grove.

Just fer starters.

Get more than a few miles away from the NJ Turnpike and you'll find that lots of the state is perfectly nice. If all I ever saw of California was the I-5 corridor, I wouldn't be impressed with my current home state either.

All Pennsylvanians claim as our right to dog Jersey.

Well, coming from a state which boasts town names like Throop, Moosic, Accident, and Intercourse, it's understandable that you'd be scrambling to find SOME right or other...

TWL

In addition to Phillyites having the given right to boo anything, keep in mind it's right next to Jersey. In this case, we know what we're slamming. : -)

And I note that Tim left out a certain Ivy League bastion as a town in Jersey that doesn't make one want to kill themselves. Even a Penn alum has to admit that Princeton the town is a lot nicer than West Philly (although the area around the Penn campus has improved a *lot* since I was there 20 years ago).

And I note that Tim left out a certain Ivy League bastion as a town in Jersey that doesn't make one want to kill themselves.

I went to Cornell. NOBODY at Cornell is willing to say anything nice about Princeton, the town or the school. :-)

(I have visited the place, both to see friends and when I was looking around at grad schools. Even taking into account that Ithaca spoiled me, I wasn't especially impressed...)

TWL

Tim, those names are nothing. How would you like to live in Blue Ball or Bird-in-Hand, PA?

Yeah, PA has some funny names for our towns, but I've been all over Jersey and the entire state is a trash heap.

And while we're on the subject of the NJ Turnpike, why are the cashiers at the rest stops so incredibly stupid? And what's the deal with the not having self-serve pumps at any of your gas stations? Nothing makes long distance travel more fun that waiting 20 minutes to pay 10 cents more per gallon for the privilege of having somebody who can't speak English pump your gas for you.

Tim, those names are nothing. How would you like to live in Blue Ball or Bird-in-Hand, PA?

I can only assume that Blue Ball is some distance away from one of the other cities I mentioned earlier...

Yeah, PA has some funny names for our towns, but I've been all over Jersey and the entire state is a trash heap.

Hey, I can't change your perceptions -- but I lived there for 16 years and am voluntarily going back this summer.

And while we're on the subject of the NJ Turnpike, why are the cashiers at the rest stops so incredibly stupid? And what's the deal with the not having self-serve pumps at any of your gas stations?

Those questions I can't answer -- but the former problem, at least, seems to me to be pretty common at most rest stops regardless of state.

I've NO idea why NJ doesn't do self-serve, though. That's struck me as bizarre for quite some time.

TWL

// And while we're on the subject of the NJ Turnpike, why are the cashiers at the rest stops so incredibly stupid? //

It's all part of an insidious plan to get you to use Ez Pass. Actually, cashiers anywere are not a high paying, high qualifiying job. It's considered menial service and pays as much as a menial service job would pay. Thus people with education or the finances to get the education usuallly don't get those kinds of jobs. The people who don't have any education or low education and don't have much prospects get those jobs and customer service suffers for it. I see no evidence that the cashiers on the turnpike are any more or less stupid then the cashiers at Wall Mart or anywhere else. Hell in my experience the cashiers in the NJ/NY area are absolutly brilliant compared to cashiers in the south, although the ones in the south are usually more polite. In any event the point is if you're gonna pay someone peanuts, you're going to get the bottom of the barrel. Want smarter cashiers, pay them better.

// And what's the deal with the not having self-serve pumps at any of your gas stations? //

I like the fact that we don't have self service especially when the myth that self service saves you money is just that, a myth. See the gas stations are supposed to not pay an attendent and then pass that savings on to you. When self service gas stations started many stations had a choice between full and self service, and you automatically paid less for self service on the conciet that you were getting less then the guy in full serice, (and full service back then often meant full service, checking the oil, cleaning the windows, ect). Soon the gas stations discovered they could make bigger profits if they charged the same for self service and we've all suffered for it. And of course that set the stage for other industies to follow, banks got ATM's and originally there was incentives to use them instead of teller, (yes, Virgina it's true banks used to give you back money to use the ATM). Now banks not only save money on not paying a teller salary, (and possibly benifits), but they charge you an high fee to on top of it. Can we say laughing all the way to the bank. But I digress.
People love the idea of self service because it's supposed to be faster, (sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't), but they never consider the fact that they are really being ripped off in the process.

The idea of allowing self service at gas stations has come up every once in a while an it has always been voted down. People in Jersey don't want it and since we have practially the lowest gas prices in the country it's hard to make people swallow the argument that it will save them money when they're allready paying a lot less then the gas stations accross the border that are self serve.

// Nothing makes long distance travel more fun that waiting 20 minutes to pay 10 cents more per gallon for the privilege of having somebody who can't speak English pump your gas for you. //

Now you're just being ignorant, first of all New Jersey has among the lowest gas prices in the country. I believe we are in the top two for low gas prices although at the moment I can't remeber the other state that's lower then us, so I doubt you're paying 10 cents more for gas. I live in Jersey but close enought to New York that I'm regularly there, gas is sometime up to 30 cents cheaper over here then there. I work on the boarder of New York State with people who drive in from New York, Conneticit, and even Penn. Everone, buys thier gas in Jersey becasue, say it with me, "the gas here is cheaper". I've seen pumps in NY for over 2 bucks a gallon for at least the last six months, we've just hit the two dollar mark in the past week or two, and there are still a number of gas stations that are still below the two dollar mark. Secondly, I've lived here all my life, drove here as long as I've had a license, have I waited in line for gas, sure, but I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers left over the amount of time I've waited twenty minutes or more, especially on the major highways. Usually getting gas takes about 5 minutes, ten tops. And I'm not even gonna address the potential racism in the "can't speak English" remark.

we've just hit the two dollar mark in the past week or two,

Ooh, now I can't wait to move back. Silicon Valley is not-so-comfortably in the $2.35 range at best at the moment.

Of course, I'm also hoping not to have a 25-miles-each-way commute next year...

TWL

I'm a bit confused, for the love of pete how did this thread of Neil gaimen and his clever coinage of a phrase (or at least clever allusion to said phrase) turn into a dialogue regarding New Jersey and it's merits (or demerits as the case may be)?

It's almost awe inspiring.

The price of gas fluctuates all the time, but everytime I've been to Jersey, the gas has been cheaper on this side of the Delaware.

And if you see "potential racism" in the simple observation that most gas attendents in Jersey can't speak English, then lighten up, buddy.

I can only assume that Blue Ball is some distance away from one of the other cities I mentioned earlier...

Actually, Blue Ball is only ten miles from Intercourse.

// The price of gas fluctuates all the time, but everytime I've been to Jersey, the gas has been cheaper on this side of the Delaware. //

According to this neat web site I just found the adverage price in Delaware is almost 10 cents higher then Jersey

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp

Futhermore Jersey is the only state where the adverage price of gas is under two dollars, on adverage we have the lowest priced gas in the country. (And you don't even have to pump it yourself). Might I suggest that where you get gas in your own state has an unusually below adverage price, not only for your state but for the nation. Or perhaps you're just using your obvious anti-NJ bias to cloud your memories and cause you to exaggerate on the negitive side just so you can be snide and nasty and put yourself above people in Jersey. For that matter, if you're going on a long trip why did you have to stop in Jersey for gas all? Our state is realitivly small, unless you have a real gas guzzler of a car you can get from one side of the state to the other on a major highway without having to stop for gas, (I know that for a fact, I've done it, many times even before I brought a hybird). So it begs the question, if you dislike our gas stations so much, why do you stop at them?

// And if you see "potential racism" in the simple observation that most gas attendents in Jersey can't speak English, then lighten up, buddy. //

"Most"? So you've been to every single gas station in the state? Spoken to every single gas station employee in the state? In other words, actually collected enought data to back up that statement? I buy gas in this state all the time, (well less so since I brought a hybird, but I digress), most of the gas stations attendants I encouter speak english. The fact that you causually drop a bigoted statement into converstation and then, with nothing to back it up, act as if it's a bonifid unarguable fact, telling me to "lighten up", says volumes about you, and the volumes it says isn't pretty.

So you've been to every single gas station in the state?

No, but I've been to quite a few fast food restaurants around the Denver Metro...

To potentially lay the Jersey vs The World re gas prices argument to rest, it is very conceivable that the difference in price in NJ could have to do with lower per gallon tax rates and could have nothing to do with the actual cost of the fuel. Has anyone analysed the net cost of the fuel before the taxes are added?

Now....can we get back to Neil, Todd, Peter, and the potential for Todd to bemoan his worthless balls?

Does anyone know the status of the settlement (or the award if you wish) that Neil won and/or the status of Todd's corporate structure and how it might currently affect his ability to continue business?

// To potentially lay the Jersey vs The World re gas prices argument to rest, it is very conceivable that the difference in price in NJ could have to do with lower per gallon tax rates and could have nothing to do with the actual cost of the fuel. Has anyone analysed the net cost of the fuel before the taxes are added? //

Don't know about other states but in Jersey the taxes are added to the price at the pump, thus if the pump says $1.99, it's a $1.99, not $1.99 + tax.

Den:
"Oh, and Mitch -

Frisco
Frisco
Frisco"

Ad Infinitum

Hi Den,

That actually cracked me up! Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

Rock on!

M

PAD said
"...Todd got gargantuan bang for his buck. For a while you couldn't turn on any TV or radio without them talking about him, plus it got him huge contacts and contracts for his toy line."

You know, I did not know that. I admit I shared the thought that that was an absurd amount of money, but to actually get business deals from it does help.

I have always been one of those who appreciated the business mind of Todd, of all the original 'Image' guys he seems to be the only one still going strong, or at least strongest (haven't really kept up much with them as my comic buying habits have slacked WAY off since then).

According to this neat web site I just found the adverage price in Delaware is almost 10 cents higher then Jersey

So what? I live in Pennsylvania. Maybe you're a little cheaper now, on average, the price has been higher in NJ than PA.

And again, I'd suggest a humor transplant. Yours has obviously atrophied due to lack of use.

Was it a shrewd Todd Mind, or a lucky break into artaction figures? I dunno, but whatever, SOMEone out there had a cool idea of collectible "action" figures for adults (honestly, what kids play with Spawn action figures? They'd have surely been recalled for putting out countless eyes by now...unless they're forced to play with them without removing them from the packaging). It tapped into or even created a whole new market. And Todd's national exposure because of the huge sums he shelled out for baseball memorabelia probably didn't hurt his business rep. Think about it: You're the Hasbro toy exec. Who's going to make a better impression on you? Some guy that draws "funny books?" Oh, and he had that HBO Spawn thing. Based on his kiddie books. Right, next. OR, the guy that just dropped $3 mil on McGuire's record baseball? The first guy belongs on Saturday morning cartoons. The second guy has some serious cash, which means investors, which means even more serious cash for Hasbro...or whoever bought into that deal.

Money opens a lot of doors, and whatever the publicity value of Todd's collecting hobby, it proved that money was something he had a lot of.

PAD, if I'm applying the Inverse Irony interpretation of your Todd v. PAD debate results, I'd hardly say you've not gone anywhere. And I'd much rather see you maintain your work's integrity and high quality than have you sell out for the sake of a quick buck.

Don't know about other states but in Jersey the taxes are added to the price at the pump, thus if the pump says $1.99, it's a $1.99, not $1.99 + tax.

That's the way most states work, I thought.

McFarlane’s biggest retort towards any criticism (particularly PAD and John Byrne) was the usual “they’re just jealous.”

Not long ago, I watched a documentary on McFarlane in which he made it painfully clear that his true love is baseball and, to quote Todd himself “I would throw everything I have in business away tomorrow if I could play center field for a major league ball team.”

He tried many times to start a career in pro baseball yet apparently never quite cut the mustard. All the comics, toys, and the rest of the “empire” is not going to change the fact that Todd McFarlane is not living his dream.

Now I am going to go out on a limb here and say that John Byrne probably wanted to be a professional comic artist and that PAD’s goal was to be a writer (please correct me if I am wrong Peter). If this is true, PAD and Byrne are living their dream. Todd McFarlane is not and all his money and fame will not change that. So all things considered, who would or should really be the “jealous” one?

Something to think about.

I attended the University of Richmond in Richmond, Virginia. Half the student body comes from Pennsylvania or New Jersey. You could tell the students who came from New Jersey, because the first few weeks of the fall semester you'd see them lost at the gas station right off campus, and there would be letters in the school newspaper about what a frelling shame it was that people had to pump their own gas. One of the gas stations on Three Chopt Road actually had full-service pumps, which confused the hell out of me one time--what the hell was a full service pump?

"Don't know about other states but in Jersey the taxes are added to the price at the pump, thus if the pump says $1.99, it's a $1.99, not $1.99 + tax."

OK, here we go:
Most jurisdictions charge you the gas price at the pump. BUT, within that price there are a variety of TAXES that are included. So for example, the actual cost of the gas might be 50 cents per gallon. But then there is state gasoline tax, federal gasoline tax, federal highway maintenance tax (I might be inventing things here), state maintenance tax, state or federal pollution tax, national gouge your tuchus tax, etc.
So everywhere you go, the pump price is what you pay. All I postulated is that NJ's tax regime may be more benign than that of its neighbours.....until of course someone in the state legislature decides that they need a new tax and that gas is the easiest place to get it.

Now, back to Todd......it would be ironic if in fact the comments made above turned out to be true. He'd be the Richie Rich of the comics world. Be that as it may, anyone have any of the info I asked for yet?

So what is the consensus then? Are people from Jersey too lazy or too stupid to pump their own gas. :P

Maybe everyone should just take some Beano and we'd get rid of all this gas.

Tom Galloway: For ten points, which of these was written by someone raised in New Jersey, and which was written by someone raised in Britain?
Luigi Novi: Watch it, Galloway. :-)

And just out of curiosity, did Albert Einstein ever live in YOUR state? Hmmm??

Tim Lynch: Re: the "Born to Run" as state song -- I can't be the only one who remembers a great stand-up routine from Robert Wuhl riffing on that exact bit.
Luigi Novi: Yeah, not a lot of anthems with the word "suicide" in 'em, eh? And imagine Grandma standing up in a baseball stadium yelling, "WARRRRRRRR!!!!!" :-)

Tim Lynch: I'm from *northern* NJ. :-)
Luigi Novi: Didn't know that. Whereabouts, Tim? Hudson County? Bergen? Me, I live in Union City.

Tim Lynch: Besides, calling it "Jersey" is rather like using "Frisco" when you're in the SF Bay area. It's good way to ensure you end up in the actual bay...
Luigi Novi: With all due respect to you and Harlan Ellison, I disagree. I use "Jersey." (Or is it okay with you cuz I live here?)

Darren J. Hudak: And I'm not even gonna address the potential racism in the "can't speak English" remark.
Luigi Novi: That has nothing to do with racism. It's a valid observation that many people in the area (at least the one I live in) do not bother to learn to speak English, even if they work in occupations where it's vital, like driving a bus, and even discriminate against non-Latinos who do not speak Spanish (which has happened to me on more than one occasion).

So what is the consensus then? Are people from Jersey too lazy or too stupid to pump their own gas. :P

Now, now.

It wasn't all that long ago (ie, within my 23 years of life) that there were full service stations still around in Illinois and Iowa. :)

Yeah, Pennsylvania once had full service stations. Then people realized that you could train a monkey to pump gas.

Recently, there was a bill introduced to require full service pumps at gas stations in PA. It was laughed out of the General Assembly.

As long as we're completely off topic, I think if someone were to open up a full service gas station (in any state) today, they'd do pretty well. After all, as long as the price was the same, who _wouldn't_ want to have someone pump your gas for you, so you didn't have to get out of the car?

Of course, when I was a kid, and we still _had_ full service stations, I always got out of the car to keep an eye on the attendant, and make sure he was putting the gas into the car's tank, and not, say, a gas tank on the ground. One of the downsides of full service was that sometimes an attendant would try to scam you, somehow.

Getting back on topic, I have to say, I like Neil Gaiman's turn of phrase.

Also slightly on topic, Neil Gaiman addressed the "Frisco" vs. "San Francisco" name in _Sandman_, in which Joshua Norton pointed out that the former was more appropriate because the town was named for Saint Francis.

Rick

If you haven't guessed, I'd rather pump my own gas anytime, even in the pouring rain. I've never had a positive experience buying gas in Jersey.

Never.

I've been on the NJ Turnpike on days when they had one attendent working six pumps at once, with lines three or four cars deep. Off the Turnpike, I've had a greasy rag rubbed on my windshield and called "service." I've had to wait for 20 minutes for an attendent. One told me with a straight face that I couldn't pump my own gas because I'd blow myself up.

I'm not disabled. I'm not lazy. I'm not stupid. I can pump my own gas, why would I want to have somebody do something I can do myself?

Den: "I'm not disabled. I'm not lazy. I'm not stupid. I can pump my own gas, why would I want to have somebody do something I can do myself?"

Den, if you were at a clean, well-run gas station with uniformed attendants (enough to cover all the pumps) who provided actual service (like the old Texaco stations, in which attendants also checked your tires, oil and other fluids) rather than the half-hearted "service" you described, would you still choose to pump your own gas?

Nothing wrong with that if you did, but I do think that if someone opened a gas station as I described above with good quality service, they'd be pretty successful. Given how people, as a rule, tend to prefer those things that require the least amount of effort, I think many would choose to let someone else pump their gas, if they had the option.

Now me, I've been pumping my own gas for more than 20 years. So I'd probably continue to do so. But I've got to admit it'd be nice to have the option of letting someone else handle that chore from time to time.

Rick

Den, if you were at a clean, well-run gas station with uniformed attendants (enough to cover all the pumps) who provided actual service (like the old Texaco stations, in which attendants also checked your tires, oil and other fluids) rather than the half-hearted "service" you described, would you still choose to pump your own gas?

Yes.

Okay, here's a response to some statements about McFarlane, some stated quite frequently.

1.) Why are we still talking about a "debate" PAD and Todd had 12 years ago? Talk about beating a dead horse!
So the general consensus is that PAD took the debate seriously and Todd was trying to entertain. While taking such a debate seriously is fair enough, I think we also have to remember this was not about national security or even a debate on a college campus. It was at a comics convention, right? A lot of the people in the audience probably did want to be entertained. So Todd's response to cater to that audience is just as valid as PAD's, if not more so, in my opinion. Unless one wants to be an obsessed intellectual about it, I see no reason why after all this time this would still irk people the wrong way.

2.) Why all this venom toward McFarlane's success? The "selling-out" charge is absolute garbage. PAD ias cheered, and rightfully so, when he takes chances on smaller characters he can play with rather than the "icons". What people forget is that if all Todd wanted to do was make money he could have kept drawing "Spider-Man" and continued to rake money in and hand over fist. He chose a different path. He took the risk of starting his own company, with his own character. There was no guarantee of success for either. As Liefeld's "Youngblood", "Keown's "Pitt" and most of the other creations by the Image crew have faded, "Spawn" is still here. It is still here through the will and vision of one man, who has written virtually every issue, got that character a movie deal a TV series deal, a toy deal where HE makes the toys and numerous other projects.
I think we should respect that, at least.

"McFarlane batted away any real questions or legitimate discussion with jokes that fell flat or less than stellar responses, while Peter responded with very well thought out answers and comments."

I've still got a scan of that "Hulk vs. Spawn" pinup that George Perez did after the debate. A funny and succinct summary of the whole exchange, and having J.J. Sachs was a bonus. ;-)

There ought to be a copy on this site somewhere...

--R.J.

Jerome Maida: So Todd's response to cater to that audience is just as valid as PAD's, if not more so, in my opinion.
Luigi Novi: If he wanted to merely entertain—and to not do so within the context of an actual debate, then he shouldn’t have proposed it in the first place. He could’ve done a standup comedy routine, a puppet show, a Q & A, a drawing contest, or what have you. At the very least, if he didn’t want to take the debate seriously insofar as a genuine exchange of ideas, including his accusation that there were some who were “in the way” of Image doing its business, then he should’ve made this clear to Peter. Did he?

Jerome Maida: Why all this venom toward McFarlane's success? The "selling-out" charge is absolute garbage.
Luigi Novi: Who said Todd sold out? The first place in this thread that “sell out” appears is in Bobb’s 9:03am post on March 28, and he didn’t reference Todd.
However, since you bring it up, I think it hurts Todd’s credibility as someone wh0 supposedly left Marvel because of reasons of “respect,” and creator rights, but then proceeded to run his business in the most hypocritical and unprofessional manner possible with respect to those ideals.

Jerome Maida: What people forget is that if all Todd wanted to do was make money he could have kept drawing "Spider-Man" and continued to rake money in and hand over fist.
Luigi Novi: You’re saying that Todd could’ve made the same money by staying on Spider-Man that he does NOW? C’mon, Jerome. That’s bunk and you know it.

Jerome Maida: He chose a different path. He took the risk of starting his own company, with his own character. There was no guarantee of success for either.
Luigi Novi: Image probably had the greatest guarantee of success than any other major endeavor in the industry in recent memory. Todd, Jim Lee and Liefeld were riding high, and anything they put their name on would’ve sold. They knew it, I knew it, and you know, Jerome. If they didn’t have a “guarantee,” well they certainly had what was clearly the best possible odds imaginable.

McFarlane's a sellout because he started his own comic company in order to maintain the rights to and artistic integrity of his own work. Anybody who's seen the atrocity that is the Spawn movie knows that THAT particular ethic went right out the window as soon as Hollywood money became available.

I also haven't been able to take the man seriously ever since he sued Palladium when they named their new RPG "Nightspawn." Even less so when he threw a hissy fit when sued over naming a mass murderer after a real person. The man has no integrity.

-Rex Hondo-

Tim Lynch: I'm from *northern* NJ. :-)

Luigi Novi: Didn't know that. Whereabouts, Tim? Hudson County? Bergen? Me, I live in Union City.

Essex County. Montclair, to be specific -- which makes it all the more eerie that Lisa's imminent professorship is at MSU. She'll be teaching less than 3 miles from the house I grew up in.

(As for the "Jersey" thing -- I don't agree, but if it's your state you can call it whatever you wanna.)

And for the record, while I've had few experiences of needing to buy gas in NJ (I didn't get my license until after I'd left for college), the ones I've had have overall been quick and pain-free. I'm perfectly happy pumping my own gas, but I don't have the "anything else is devil-spawned horror" attitude towards it that Den seems to.

(Of course, I still can't tell whether Den's being entirely serious with all of this NJ-aimed venom. If he is, I think he's spending way too much energy on it; if he's taking the piss with all of us, then well played.)

TWL