Several people have written to me bringing my attention to a completely insane incident where a student in Kentucky has been thrown in a juvenile detention center for writing a short story in which zombies overrun a high school. More details can be found here...
http://www.lex18.com/global/story.asp?s=2989614&ClientType=Printable
What I keep thinking about was that when I was in seventh grade, I had an assignment to write a ghost story, and did a story where the ghost of a student exacts horrific revenge upon an obnoxious teacher. If I'm in seventh grade now and write that same story, next thing I know, I'm going to wind up talking to police and social workers.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at March 6, 2005 12:08 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingI live in Kentucky, and I can tell you that I can easily see this happening here. Just stupid, stupid, stupid. Funny thing is, our state assessment has been encouraging creativity in writing for some fourteen years now.
Wow. I am so glad to live in Canada.
That is, unless you guys decided to start testing Star Wars on us since we won't play along...
Makes homeschooling look more and more attractive everyday...
Jst because of some whack-jobs at Columbine, more kids creativity and imagaination is being squashed...
No wonder America is dying and creativity is on a such a downslide...
Glad I graduated Hign School back in 87 before the goddamn country lost it's mind completely...
Charged with terrorism for writing fiction?
"Even so, police say the nature of the story makes it a felony. "Anytime you make any threat or possess matter involving a school or function it's a felony in the state of Kentucky," said Winchester Police detective Steven Caudill."
So I guess most cartoon featuring things happen at or around schools (Static Shock, Batman, any number of Anime Kids shows, COMIC BOOKS, etc.) is an act of Terrorism???
McCarthyism 2005, I'll say it again... THE TERRORIST WON!
When I was in high school, the teacher of a writing class assigned us to take a story from the newspaper & rewrite it inn the first person from the view of one of the people in the story.
I hate to think how many people in the class would have been arrested for their stories. Myself included since the story I chose was of a local (to the school) bar fight which I extended to include the school building.
While we're at it, an 8 year old was arrested for throwing a temper tantrum in school.
http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0304Tantrum04-ON.html
It appears his own grandfather may have turned him in. That's depressing too.
// While we're at it, an 8 year old was arrested for throwing a temper tantrum in school.
http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0304Tantrum04-ON.html //
Some years ago there was a story about a kindergarden student who was suspended from school because he kissed another student. The principal was quoted in the story about unwanted advances and how sexual harrashment would not be tolerated in his school, never getting the fact that the kid was six and he was overreacting big time. (The idea of sitting the kid down and explaining to him that there is nothing wrong with kissing someone but it's something that should only be done with certain people in certain times and places, (you know, stuff most adults understand but six year old children, by the nature of being six year old children, don't) never occured to him. I wondered at the time how much damage was being done to this kid by this overreaction. One could easily see him having problems with relationships and sex in his adult life, after all the first time he ever expressed affection for anyone outside of his family he was more or less told he was evil. That's really got to screw you up. One could see the kid becoming a rapist or sexual deviant or at the very least needing a lot of theorpy. I feel the same way every time I hear of one of these overreactions. As a society we're so big on "protecting the children" that we sometimes don't realize we're doing them more harm then good.
It appears his own grandfather may have turned him in. That's depressing too.
Yes, that may be the most disheartening part of the whole sorry mess. *sigh*
Gosh, it's great to be back in the simpler times of witch hunts...
// I'm surprised it isn't in NJ.... //
Is there something happening in my home state I'm unaware of.
Boy, when I was a kid I used to draw all kinds of violent doodles in the margins of my notes. I was a regular Aragones. Often it was of airplanes dive bombing stick figures on parachutes, strafing them with dashes. Sometimes the guys would bleed. Usually they went "Aieeee!"
I turned out ok, right? Right? Hello?
If this kid's in trouble just wait until they see the low budget video a bunch of us shot a few months ago, part of the fulfillment of my long time dream of being in a, yes, zombie movie. One with more gore than you could shake a stick at, every scene is like the prom scene in CARRIE. We went through about 10 gallons of karo syrup (you can see some of my photos of the crew at http://www.freelance-designs.net/zombies/ My wife is the one with her scalp hanging half off.
Good thing we didn't set it at the school.
What gets me is that this kid was handed in by his grandparents. WTF? Either there is WAY more to this story than what we have seen so far (we ARE, after all, taking the kids word for it) or this kid may soon have all the ground he needs for one hell of a lawsuit.
Oh, whaddaya know? It's Nineteen Eighty Freakin' Four all over again! The kid is being punished for thought crimes...if he doesn't go to jail someone ought to give him a massive scholarship.
Wow. When I was in seventh grade, I wrote a parody of the movie "C.H.U.D." called "C.H.E.T." (Cannibalistic Humanoid Education Teacher). In the story, all the teachers in my school (who I referred to by their real names) get dumped with toxic waste and turn into carnivorous monsters. The kids (again, referred to by their real names) have to fight back. Kids get eaten, teachers get blown apart with shotguns, and so forth.
That was in 1993, six years before Columbine. It was also here in Massachusetts, fortunately, so even if some teacher had made a stink, I probably would have been okay. But I shudder to think what might have happened if I'd been in the same place and time as Poole.
In another article the principal says the word "zombies" doesn't appear in Poole's story, but I just checked "C.H.E.T." (yes, I still have a copy of it), and, due to the nature of how the teachers get turned into monsters, the word "zombie" doesn't appear in my story, either.
I think it's hard to really judge without reading the story for ourselves--all we have is second-hand descriptions by Poole and the principal. But I'm inclined to give Poole the benefit of the doubt, if not for any reason other than there but for the grace of a Blue State and pre-Columbine world go I.
It appears his own grandfather may have turned him in. That's depressing too.
From what I heard on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" this morning, not only did his grandparents turn him in, they were also the ones who requested the increase in his bail.
Yeah, overall, this is pretty gross.
You know what I think it is? Lack of water. States that don't love by some great body of water tend to go insane with their conservative censorship crap*. They need some fresh water in their lives.
*I can't explain why Georgia borders water and seems comparatively insane.
"Even so, police say the nature of the story makes it a felony. "Anytime you make any threat or possess matter involving a school or function it's a felony in the state of Kentucky," said Winchester Police detective Steven Caudill."
The cop was either misquoted or is an idiot. From another account:
"Under Kentucky law, a person is guilty of terroristic threatening in the second degree when they threaten to "commit any act likely to result in death or serious physical injury" to students, teachers or employees of a school."
Which at least makes some sense. That would not apply to a fictional work so Stephen King is off the hook.
This story is not one of the better reported ones I've seen lately. Depending on what you read it sounds like either an innocent kid got arrested for wriing a zombie story or a terminal troublemaker was found with plans for an armed takeover of a school by gangs, no zombies mentioned at all. The story is sexy enough that I imagine we will be getting deatils soon enough.
Okay, so. Let me get this straight.
Poole is writing a story for English class. The story is about the undead terrorising a school. Okay, fine. Everyone loves zombies. No problem.
His grandfather reads his story. Obviously becomes concerned for the mental health of his grandson.
So he gets him arrested.
This is where it falls apart for me. If you're concerned about your grandson's stability, get a freakin' psychologist or counsellor. Maybe try talking to him even. I know, I know, it's a daunting task to be a parent, but sometimes it's kind of necessary.
So now, instnead of being, you know, a decent human being, you've gone and been a knee-jerk reactionary and scarred your grandson for life. This kid will never recover from this treatment. And all because some jerk couldn't be assed to be a decent human being towards his grandson.
If there isn't more to this story, like maybe the kid had an arsenal in his closet or was highly antisocial or something, then this is just the most disgusting thing I've read in months.
A good question at this point. How many of you know who you voted for your local school board - if you bothered to vote at all?
School boards used to be populated by drunken ex-teachers and morons, which was all right, because they didn't do much of anything. Now they're occupied by right-wing idelologues who want to force conservative Christianity, murder of "sexual deviants" and "creation science" down everyone's throats.
If this somehow upsets you, perhaps you should vote next time. Or perhaps you should run for school board next time, and make your views publicly known, and be willing to defend them.
As another fellow Kentuckian, and one who is only in his freshman year of college no less, I find this extremely depessing. I think this is more proof that Kentucky cops are a teensy little bit power happy. Even if the law did read as the cop quoted, isn't this a case where the spirit should be obeyed more than the letter?
To make it even worse, I'm from the area near this kids high school (GRC).
*sigh* what do you do to fight this level of... stupidity?
Man, I read this on a couple other sites today, its really, really depressing. I really hope this kid gets a good Lawyer so he can get into a good collage with the money he'll win out of this mess. and if I was him, I'd never speak to his Grandparents ever again.
Wow! A felony for writing a zombie story! I'm glad I don't go to school today. I remember plenty of things that I wrote and drew that wouldn't go over today. Heck, not everything went over then, but nobody called the cops. I remember drawing cupids shooting real arrows for a second grade art assignment that I thought was real funny, but my teacher didn't. My mom was brought in but that was the end of it.
I don't think my mom thought it was that funny either, but she didn't have the sense of humor of a seven year old, so what can I say?
"This is Jack Bauer, speaking."
"JACK! CTU says get your ass over to a local high school -- TERRORIST ATTACK imminent! A kid WROTE a STORY!"
“DAMMIT! I’m on my way!”
*WHAM!* “AHHHHH!! Guy with a gun in the school!”
“EVERYBODY STAY DOWN!! I’m a Federal Agent!”
“Mi..mister.. B—“
“I SAID STAY DOWN!! DAMMIT, DON’T MAKE ME SHOOT YOU!!”
“I’m just the janit-“ *BLAM!*
“Let that be a lesson to all of you! Now where’s the terrorist?!”
“He’s ove-“ *BLAM!*
“Let that be a second lesson to you all. DAMMIT!”
“Hey, what’s going-AGHHH!!”
“I got you, you terrorist story-writing scum! STAY DOWN! Somebody get me a live electrical wire, a pair of tweezers and a copy of Kenny G’s Greatest Hits! You’re going to talk, boy!”
“Noooooooo!!!”
“SHUT UP! DAMMIT!”
Of course, let's keep in mind that after Columbine there was lots of criticism of the parents and teachers for "not seeing this coming". Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm getting a weird vibe from this--the grandparents asking for higher bail makes me wonder. They may be the worst grandparents since Flowers In The Attic...or maybe they were being terrorized by a sociopath. Anyway, as I said, the real story should be out soon.
If he really did get busted for writing a zombie story...back up the money truck!
// Of course, let's keep in mind that after Columbine there was lots of criticism of the parents and teachers for "not seeing this coming". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. //
But the sightings in Columbine were very specific, if the kids in that case had only been wearing black coats or playing video games or had only written a story about zombies attacking the school the teachers and parents could have been excused, but there other signs, a website that made specific threats against students, police complaints from other students who had been threatened, bomb making material in the kids garage, guns in the kids bedrooms. Any one of those things should have been picked up as a sure sign of trouble by teachers and parents, hence the critisim. Calling the cops everytime a kid says something along the line of "I hate school" is not only overreacting, it's missing the point entirly.
It's nice to see that we are cracking down on the evil concept of creative writing.
Next up, white after October will be punishable by death?
Man, I would have been so busted for what I wrote back in the day. I wrote an e-mail to the Mayor, telling him that this was a total abuse of power. Vile and disgusting. Someone should start a fund or something to help the kid get legal defense.
Wow. Just... wow.
But actually, I'm even more disgusted by the story mentioned by Michael Brunner... I simply cannot believe this - arresting a kid for a temper tantrum??? I know, this kid's outburst was pretty violent... but why wasn't the counsellor called instead of police? Whose brilliant idea was to arrest this boy???
I don't know, maybe it's because I'm psychologist / counsellor myself - but this case is simply outrageous...
Gotta love the republican world of "Zero-Tolerance". No thought neccessary, just do as your told.
Reality check: We have one news source for that account. I can't find verification elsewhere with a Google search. There is an article on the Student Press Law Center site which presents a somewhat different account; the school principal denies that it was a story about zombies, and that the project which Poole cited existed. The bizarre police quote also isn't mentioned.
Even so, I don't see how private notes that weren't delivered to anyone could constitute criminal threatening. As long as they're not presented to someone, and as long as there's no evidence of intent to carry them out, it's just fantasizing. If that's a crime in Kentucky, it's extremely disturbing news.
Kind of reminds me of anincident with one of my college buddies, back when. We were big into the role-playing superhero game, "Champions". He enlisted in the Air Force, and wound up as Security Police at Minot AFB (a missile base in North Dakota). To pass the time, he started working on a game scenario that revolved around an attempt by a group of villains to steal a warhead from the base.
His roommate turned him in for conspiracy to commit treason, based on the "bomb theft plot" in his notebook.
Fortunately, this being over a decade pre-9/11, all he had to do was spend a couple of hours explaining to the Office of Special Investigation about how real terrorists don't have jet boots, or the ability to fire energy blasts...
God help him if this had happened today!
BTW, those interesting in this story might want to check out this link. Seems the zombie story isn't all the unique.
OK, completely OT, but you have to see this.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/
It's a sign at a church about us (comic book readers) I laughed, but it's probably not funny the more I think about it...
Over 15 years ago, Julie Brown did a Weird Al type of song called "Everbody Run, The Homecoming Queen's Got A Gun." (I think it actually appeared on her "Earth Guys Are More Fun" album (Which had songs from teh Earth Girls Are Easy" movie -- in which Julie starred. Considering some of the lyrics ("Debbie's smiling and waving her gun, picking off cheerleaders one by one..." I can't imagine how people would react if someone had a copy of the lyrics on a high school campus.
The song is hysterical,though .. .
Excluding blogs, here's other news stories found on Google --> News:
http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=2998292
http://www.splc.org/newsflash.asp?id=973&year=
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/rss/10991368.htm
http://www.winchestersun.com/articles/2005/02/24/local_news/news01.txt
Tons of blogs with this story, but few in the news...
"http://www.overcriminalized.com/studies/2004.01_ZT2.html"
Goddamn this country makes me sicker and sicker every day.
And America seriously expects other countries to look up to and emulate it???
You know, even if it meant that I was hosed along with everyone else, I'd love it if this turned out to be nothing but a hoax spread through the internet. It's certainly not an impossibility. I made no effort to check further beyond the link I got, so maybe it really is just total bull. That would be nice.
PAD
I don't know what the student's assignment was as opposed to PAD's, but it makes no difference. The Patriot Act is becoming more and more a reality. When I think of all those CBLDF stories as well, it makes me sick to think these things are happening all over our country. I wish all these incidents were hoaxes.
Not the most insightful of comments I realize, but I couldn't resist adding my 2c.
Just dawned on me: PAD, what would you have done today, considering you were told to write a ghost story, if this had happened to you?
// Over 15 years ago, Julie Brown did a Weird Al type of song called "Everbody Run, The Homecoming Queen's Got A Gun." (I think it actually appeared on her "Earth Guys Are More Fun" album (Which had songs from teh Earth Girls Are Easy" movie -- in which Julie starred. Considering some of the lyrics ("Debbie's smiling and waving her gun, picking off cheerleaders one by one..." I can't imagine how people would react if someone had a copy of the lyrics on a high school campus.
The song is hysterical,though .. . //
If memory serves, there was also a video for that song that got some MTV airplay way back when.
Oh, screw this. I'm moving to Canada, where zombie stories are grist for the B-movie mill instead of TERRORISM.
For f**k's sake.
KAREN -
The church sign is a fake. It's one of two signs where you can write your own message.
http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/
Have fun creating your own.
Julie Brown's "Homecoming Queen's Got a Gun" first appeared on her EP Goddess In Progress, which I have a copy of around here somewhere (largely useless, as I have no working turntable). It then appeared on her first LP, Trapped In The Body Of A White Girl. I don't know whether it appeared on other albums.
The song Earth Girls Are Easy, inspiring the movie, was also on that same EP. That short recording seems to have served her well.
Michael,
Thanks. I'm glad it's a fake. I had visions of Wertham floating around my head....
"Homecoming Queen's Got a Gun" was released on a Dr. Demento compilation, I forget which one.
The report, minus Poole's claim it was a fictional zombie story, has appeared in enough places that it's not a total hoax. The question is one of exactly what happened.
I wish Canada could hold its head high and claim to have the high ground on this one, but there have been ridiculous cases of overreactions by school boards and principals here, too. Kids suspended because they had the temerity to go to a *gasp!* Hooters restaurant, for example. Essays getting kids dragged away by cops? Happened at least once, though I don't know if he was actually put away. he was at least suspended for the violent material he wrote about.
Not nearly as bad, I susppose, but something PAD may be able to relate to at some point in his past.
High school English essay on life in the future.
Was so taken by the idea that I wrote two of them. Each looking at an alternative possibility of where we might wind up.
The prof gave me a failing mark on the essays because [as he put it] I'd let my imagination run too wild and the worlds I'd described were just too far-fetched. Half of what I wrote about exists today and much of the rest is on the drawing boards. So much for encouraging creativity and independent thinking.
>McCarthyism 2005, I'll say it again... THE TERRORIST WON!
Well, that was to be expected the moment the second plane hit the building. But this case has nothing to do with it. Just a screwed up society which is in love with the idea of social engineering, even though it really doesn't know what the hell it's doing.
>As a society we're so big on "protecting the children" that we sometimes don't realize we're doing them more harm then good.
I've quoted this before, but it is still oh, so very applicable.
LAW & ORDER: SPECIAL VICTIMS' UNIT. The detectives are on an especially girsly case involving children. Back at the squadroom, the detectives with kids (which is most of them) are in near-panic mode and going on about ways and means to insulate kids and keep them safe from that mean outside world.
Richard Belzer's character. Det. Munsch(sp?) suddenly comments, to no one in particular "Great way to wind up with a bunch of perfectly safe little neurotics."
// LAW & ORDER: SPECIAL VICTIMS' UNIT. The detectives are on an especially girsly case involving children. Back at the squadroom, the detectives with kids (which is most of them) are in near-panic mode and going on about ways and means to insulate kids and keep them safe from that mean outside world.
Richard Belzer's character. Det. Munsch(sp?) suddenly comments, to no one in particular "Great way to wind up with a bunch of perfectly safe little neurotics." //
Det. Munch, one of the greatest and most underappreciated supporting characters in the history of television. (Not only has the character been a regular on Homicide and L&O:SUV but he's also crossed over to the X-Files and the original L&O. How many other TV characters have appeared on 4 different shows?)
Prior to the story showing up here, I'd seen three Web accounts: the LEX 18 story at the top of the thread, the Winchester Sun story Bladestar mentions, and a blog-post representing itself as from another student in Poole's high school. The poster, one Icarus, asserts that Poole's material wasn't fiction (per Poole's sister) and that Poole's stories about its being a school assignment are inconsistent at best.
Between the Icarus posts and the SPLC report also referenced by Bladestar, Poole's assertion that the material was "a short story" would seem to lack credibility. Add the indications from various of the reports that Poole has been in trouble before, and this begins to look less like a violation of Poole's civil rights and more like what didn't happen in the case of an Oregon high school student named Kip Kinkel.
// Prior to the story showing up here, I'd seen three Web accounts: the LEX 18 story at the top of the thread, the Winchester Sun story Bladestar mentions, and a blog-post representing itself as from another student in Poole's high school. The poster, one Icarus, asserts that Poole's material wasn't fiction (per Poole's sister) and that Poole's stories about its being a school assignment are inconsistent at best. //
Thanks for the link to Icarus post, interesting reading, hopefully we'll find out the real truth soon.
I'd liek to more "news" posts rather than blog posts. Anyone can have a blog...
Still, makes for interesting reading at least...
So what if his story didn't have the word 'zombie' in it?
Zombie movies don't have the word 'zombie' in them. Except Shaun of the Dead, which is a parody.
Let's see how the story plays out before assuming the innocence of the young lad. The assumption seems to be the kid's right and the adults (including his grandfather, the cops, the principal and the prosecutor) are wrong. I don't know about you, but my spider sense is tingling a bit on this one.
Originally posted by Randomus:
Zombie movies don't have the word 'zombie' in them. Except Shaun of the Dead, which is a parody.
"Don't use the Zed-word!"
Darren J. Hudak: How many other TV characters have appeared on 4 different shows?
Luigi Novi: Good point. The only ones I know of that come close is Quark, who appeared on three different Star Trek series.
Spoon -- Oh, now you've got me (a) reminiscing about some of Julie Brown's better tunes (HQGaG and "'Cause I'm a Blonde" being two of my favorites), and (b) wondering just how much trouble I'd get into at school if I played "The Homecoming Queen's Got a Gun" to one of my classes just to make a point. (I'd play it for my AP class -- they've all had me for two years and thus are irrevocably warped anyway, and are also seniors and thus well-equipped with functioning bullshit detectors.)
Thomas E. Reed --
A good question at this point. How many of you know who you voted for your local school board - if you bothered to vote at all?
[snip]
If this somehow upsets you, perhaps you should vote next time. Or perhaps you should run for school board next time, and make your views publicly known, and be willing to defend them.
While Thomas and I didn't exactly see eye to eye the last time we discussed education (in other words, he made a blanket generalization that all teachers are emotionally twisted bullying morons, which I have some mild objections to), I'll back this statement of his up to the hilt, especially for those of you with kids.
Know the school board (or the equivalent if your kid's in private school) -- and his idea of running for school board is not a bad idea. Lisa and I are moving east come summer, and once we're settled in our new abode I may well consider something like that. (Of course, Thomas would undoubtedly say I'm part of the problem. :-)
I do hope that the story's a hoax, but I suspect, alas, that it's not. If anyone gets definitive information one way or the other, I hope you'll inform us all.
TWL
Det. Munch, one of the greatest and most underappreciated supporting characters in the history of television. (Not only has the character been a regular on Homicide and L&O:SUV but he's also crossed over to the X-Files and the original L&O. How many other TV characters have appeared on 4 different shows?)
You don't have to look far: Jerry Orbach's Detective Briscoe has now appeared on 5 different shows (Homicide and all four L&O's)...too bad it won't be going any higher (R.I.P. Mr. Orbach...)
This reminds me of the episode of FRASIER when Frasier, after getting pranked by Bulldog, plans to prank him by getting Bulldog to get some boxes from the basement one night, then have some actors dressed as zombies attack him. When Frasier tells his father the plan, Martin replies, "I don't think it's going to work, Frasier. For one thing, Bulldog never works nights, so that would make him suspicious. For another, thing, ZOMBIES DON'T EXIST!!!"
This reminds me of the early 1980s fears that playing DUNGEONS & DRAGONS would lead to slaughter and spellcasting. C'mon, what happened to distinguishing between fantasy and reality???
The scariest thing is that if the student was charged under current anti-terrorism laws, it shows that those laws will be used against ANYONE that authorities dislike, not just terrorists. And if that sounds extreme, think of what happened to this student's Constitutional right to free speech.
It's a frickin' STORY!
This seems like a way for PAD to test the waters and see how reactionary and gullible most of you are, so that he can post another "The Sky is Falling!" story on how your liberties are being taken away and if it weren't for him and CBLDF, you wouldn't even be able to buy Watchmen!
PAD, it seems that there are a ton of gullible reactionaries that will buy into it, so now seems to be the right time to update us on CBLDF!!!
Wow. Ken's really an asshole.
As for a more intelligent query:
"Just dawned on me: PAD, what would you have done today, considering you were told to write a ghost story, if this had happened to you?"
As a seventh grader now? I doubt very much I'd have written the story I wrote back in the 1960s.
PAD
"Lisa and I are moving east come summer, and once we're settled in our new abode I may well consider something like that. (Of course, Thomas would undoubtedly say I'm part of the problem. :-)"
Tim, where are you guys heading? If it's in North Carolina, look me up. I know some great sushi restaurants in Chapel Hill.
And if you're moving to NC you WANT to be in Chapel Hill!
This seems like a way for PAD to test the waters and see how reactionary and gullible most of you are
This seems like the post of an utter jackass.
Hm, it just hit me. Robert Kirkman, author of The Walking Dead, lives in Kentucky.
He might wanna invest in a shotgun or something.
Here's a new one fresh from Fark.com:
Christian school: "Spank your child or he's suspended"
Some things about this story just plain bug me.
First, where is the whole story? Every "News" website I've read only tells part of the story. Even with all the parts I've read I still have questions. I have no experience when it comes to reporting the news so I naturally assume that a "seasoned" reporter could do a better job than I. Well, now not so much.
Some don't look to see if Poole has a documented history of misconduct or any of the "warning signs" that the various 'Post Incident Expert Panels' tell us about.
None have looked into the schools disciplinary history to determine if overreaction is the norm.
I know these things take time and that the story thus far is a "teaser" to peek our interest. It's just frustrating, especially after all the other injustices done to children by schools. Aspirin, anyone?
FROM THE OTHER SIDE:
Darren J. Hudak: How many other TV characters have appeared on 4 different shows?
Luigi Novi: Good point. The only ones I know of that come close is Quark, who appeared on three different Star Trek series.
ME: I was going to pick Quark as well, but you beat me to it.
Damn you, Luigi Novi of the often infallible argument disection!!!
By the way, Luigi, it's good to see you here again. I was ready to put out an APB. ;)
In the realm of "same character across multiple series," Estelle Getty played Sophia as a regular on THE GOLDEN GIRLS, THE GOLDEN PALACE and EMPTY NEST. She also guested as the character on BLOSSOM and NURSES. So that ties Lenny Briscoe, at the least.
(I had to use the IMDB to verify those last two. I don't even remember the existence of a show called NURSES, and I've done my best to block out all memories of BLOSSOM)
On the main topic, though: didn't everyone write stories like this in junior high or high school? I certainly did. We live in scary, borderline totalitarian times.
"Darren J. Hudak: How many other TV characters have appeared on 4 different shows?"
Hunh. Well, let's see: Carl Reiner as "Alan Brady" was in the original "Dick Van Dyke Show," he appeared in "Mad About You," he was in a Claymation short-lived series (or maybe it was a one-shot), and he showed up in a Van Dyke reunion special.
Scotty appeared in Original Trek, DS9 (via the Tribbles episode), and Next Gen. If Sulu was in that DS9 episode, then he was also in three since he showed up in "Voyager."
Then there's obviously Clark Kent, in "The Adventures of Superman," "Superboy," "Lois and Clark," and "Smallville." But he didn't exactly originate on TV.
But I'm reasonably sure the record is held by Jack Riley's "Mr. Carlin." Not only was he a regular on "The Bob Newhart Show," but he showed up in cameo as Mr. Carlin in "Newhart," "George and Leo," ALF, and "St. Elsewhere."
For that matter, Bob Hartley got around. Since he woke up at the end of "Newhart," that counts for two, and he also showed up in "Murphy Brown" when Carol was Murphy's secretary.
PAD
Everyone sing along now "Oh Canada..."
This kind of thing just keeps on happening again
and again.
Screw Canada too, they have their own pile of programs. I'll take my own island out in the Pacific or Atlantic...
If we're playing for three shows, Mork from Ork qualifies. He appeared in his own series, Happy Days, and Laverne and Shirley.
Yeah I read about this a few days ago on Brian K Vaughan's forum. The Kid an the Grandparent must have had some major differences and fights for him to want to turn his grandson in for a story about zombies.
What bothers me even more is that the Judge an the jurry didnt laugh at it, and toss it out the window. I mean seriously. If this kid is a terrorist for writing the story. Then they should go after George Romer, Robert Kirkman, Garth Ennis and just about anybody else who has creativity in their head. Because really. How does writing about zombies taking over A school, make you a "terrorist" threat?
The kids not a mad scientist plotting to take over the world, or raise the dead. He was merely writing a story. Hell I did the same when I was in school. But I didnt get yelled at or arrested..
Brainster, that paragon of American values said :
Let's see how the story plays out before assuming the innocence of the young lad.
Yes because, god knows, if we start by presuming innocence before guilt, who knows WHERE that sort of pinko liberal commie thinking will lead???
PAD, CLark Kent would not count -- we're talking same actor playing the same character. Riley as Carlin ties with Orbach as Lenny Briscoe and Getty as Sophia Petrillo as noted above.
Not sure I'd count Alan King's appearance on a reunion special as separate from THE DICK VAN DYKE show itself, but agreed on all other citings.
So, can anyone name an actor/character that's gone across six series?
Oh, and the Tribbles DS9 episode would also stretch McCoy and Spock to three series via their appearances on NEXT GEN.
Here's one I can't believe I didn't think of before: Carroll O'Connor as Archie Bunker on ALL IN THE FAMILY and ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE as a regular, and as a guest on MAUDE and GLORIA. DId he also do the role on THE JEFFERSONS? That would tie him with five. IMDB doesn't list him on JEFFERSONS, but they don't list him on MAUDE, either, and I'm sure I remember him appearing on that show at least once.
I'm reserving judgement until more detail on the case can come out. If it was just a zombie story, then there is some serious knee-jerk reaction; however, if he was trying to actively recruit people to take over the school as some reports are indicating, then I think the actions were prudent. We just don't know enough beyond initial reports to make any qualified assessment of the actions of the prosecution.
For the sub-thread, I think Henry Winkler as Arthur Fonzarelli (not counting reunion shows, but counting animated series) is at the top:
Happy Days
Laverne and Shirley
Mork and Mindy
Joanie Loves Chachi
Fonz and the Happy Days gang (animated)
Laverne and Shirley with the Fonz (animated)
1) According to IMDB, the only episode of Gloria that had Archie on it was the "unaired pilot" -- although that may well have aired in a rerun package for this show.
2) Gloria also causes us to note that Joey Stivic was a curiousity -- a series-original character played by different actors in each of the three series where he appeared (All In The Family, Gloria, 704 Hauser)
3) Checking the TV crossover list at http://www.poobala.com/crossoverlist.html (which is pretty good at catching such things), I don't see any sign of Estelle Getty playing her Empty Nest role on Blossom.
4) Folks are overlooking the Bradys. Marcia Brady was played by the same person on The Brady Bunch, The Brady Kids, The Brady Brunch Hour, and The Brady Brides, (but not The Bradys, although she was on the Very Brady Christmas telemovie that led to that show), and if you want to count dream sequences, also on Day By Day. Jan was played by the same person in The Brady Bunch, The Brady Kids, The Brady Brides, and The Bradys (but not The Brady Hour).
5) Gary Coleman played his Diff'rent Strokes character on that show plus guest spots on Facts Of Life, Fresh Prince, and Silver Spoons.
6) Sherman Hemsely played George Jefferson on All In The Family (recurring), The Jeffersons (regular), E/R (guest appearances -- this is the Elliot Gould sitcom with George Clooney, not the more recent E.R. drama with George Clooney), and Fresh Prince (cameo).
7) Kelsey Grammar played Frasier Crane on Cheers, Frasier, and guest spots on The John Laroquette Show and Wings.
Hudak - Sarek showed up in at least three TREK series (original, animated and NEXT), plus a movie or two. Does that count?
Lynch - Julie Brown's "'Cause I'm a Blonde"? Ever see the fan-made video of that? The guy put together a large number of Japanese anime clips, all featuring blonde characters, to fit the lyrics of the song. It is almost painfully funny to watch. Also did one on GIRL FIGHT TONIGHT which wasn't bad, though not as funny.
Mulligan - "I know some great sushi restaurants in Chapel Hill."
Where were you when we needed you? [Japanese] girlfriend made a side trip to Chapel Hill to visit an acquaintance there during one of her stays here in Canada. She didn't have much good to say about the restaurants she ate at there when she got back, however.
Didn't something remarkably similar to this happen about two or three years ago? Maybe not out of Kentucky, but one of the Southern states (must be something in the water)?
As far as characters making multiple appearances on television, "Q" made three series (ST:TNG, ST: DS9), ST:V; I was half-expecting an appearance on "Enterprise").
If what it says is true, then there is definitely cause to be outraged. People are saying "let's see how this story plays out", but who knows if we'll even see anything more from this story. Also, it's possible that each news source will report it with whatever slant they want, with none of them giving us the whole story. The only way I'd be completely happy with further information is if I, or someone I trusted were to investigate personally. I don't really trust the news media too far.
The level of fear derived from this type of stuff is awful. Kids have joked about violence towards teachers and in school for years as simply a way to deal with all their stress and dislike for school in general. Anyone remember this little ditty:
Glory, Glory Hallelujah,
My teacher hit me with a ruler
I met her at the door with a loaded 44
And she ain't my teacher no more
There's a less violent version that replaces the 3rd line with "I knocked her on the bean with a rotten tangerine"
Or how about:
Glory, glory to the burning of the school
we've tortured every teacher
and broken every rule
we'll barbecue the principal
tomorrow after school
as the kids go marching on
Just goofy little songs, but singing them in the hallways of a school itself could probably get you arrested these days.
Diaz - "We live in scary, borderline totalitarian times."
And getting worse. See below.
**************
Toronto Star
Business, Monday, March 7, 2005, p. D01
Do we want fee-based, surveillance-ready Web?
Say no to Big Brother plan for Internet
By Michael Geist
During the Internet boom of the late 1990s, Nortel Networks ran an advertising campaign that featured as its slogan, "what do you want the Internet to be?" The implications were obvious - the Internet was a technology of unlimited possibility that could be whatever we wanted it to be.
More than five years later, Nortel's vision is becoming reality. The Internet has become so essential to the every day lives of millions of people - a pillar of communication, information, entertainment, education, and commerce - that at times it seems as if the Internet really is anything we want it to be.
Notwithstanding the Internet's remarkable potential, there are dark clouds on the horizon. There are some who see a very different Internet. Theirs is an Internet with ubiquitous surveillance featuring real-time capabilities to monitor online activities. It is an Internet that views third party applications such as Vonage's Voice-over-IP service as parasitic. It is an Internet in which virtually all content should come at a price, even when that content has been made freely available. It is an Internet that would seek to cut off subscriber access based on mere allegations of wrongdoing, without due process or oversight from a judge or jury.
This disturbing vision of the Internet is not fantasy. It is based on real policy proposals being considered by the Canadian government today.
Leading the way is the federal government's "lawful access" initiative. While the term lawful access sounds innocuous, the program, which dates back to 2002, represents law enforcement's desire to re-make Canada's networks to allow for lawful interception of private communications.
If lawful access becomes reality, Canada's telecommunications service providers (TSPs) will be required to refit their networks to allow for real-time interception of communications, to have the capability of simultaneously intercepting multiple transmissions, and to provide detailed subscriber information to law enforcement authorities without a court order within 72 hours.
Moreover, Canada's service providers will be subject to inspections and required to provide the government with reports on the technical capabilities of their networks. These activities will be shrouded in secrecy with service providers facing fines of up to $500,000 or sentences of up to five years in jail for failing to keep the data collection confidential.
All of these changes come at an enormous cost - both financially (hundreds of millions of dollars in new technology) and to our personal privacy. While some changes may be needed for security purposes, the government has yet to make the case for why the current set of powers, which include cybercrime and wiretapping provisions, are insufficient. There has been no evidence provided that this approach is the least privacy invasive alternative.
Refitting the network is not limited to government initiatives. In recent weeks it has become apparent that the network providers themselves may seek to interfere with the free flow of data. For example, Vonage (the leading independent Voice-over-IP provider) recently filed a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission in the U.S. alleging that an unnamed Internet service provider was blocking its service. Last week, the provider agreed to stop and to pay a fine to the FCC.
In a less publicized incident, the Communications Commission of Kenya last week ordered the state-owned Telkom Kenya to restore service to Sema VoIP, another Voice-over-IP provider which is backed by Canadian-based BMT North America. The Commission warned Telkom Kenya against taking similar action in the future.
The issue raised by these cases is not new. Observers have long feared that ISPs would succumb to economic self-interest, engaging in "packet preferencing" by blocking or slowing data coming from competing sites or services. While service providers are quick to argue that they want merely to serve as intermediaries without regard for what traverses their networks, as they offer competing Internet phone services, music download services, and other value-added content, there will be a clear temptation to create a home network advantage.
In fact, at the CRTC hearings into VoIP last fall, the parent company of at least one major provider gave every indication that it did not view third party services favourably. Quebecor, which owns Videotron, told the Commission that services such as Vonage contributed nothing to the development of facilities-based competition and that "the service provider's VoIP-based service is totally parasitic on the local access facilities of other carriers."
As the leading Canadian ISPs roll out their own VoIP services, many may look at competing services in the same way and seek to limit the use of their network. Stopping such interference requires a strong CRTC, yet with Industry Minister David Emerson's planned review of Canada's telecommunications law, some industry experts fear that Canada is heading in the opposite direction.
The Minister of Industry, together with Liza Frulla, his Canadian Heritage counterpart, are also reportedly about to finalize new rules that may reshape the availability of Internet content to educational institutions. Acting on the recommendation of a parliamentary committee that was chaired by Toronto MP Sarmite Bulte, the government may soon unveil a new "extended license" that would require schools to pay millions of dollars for content that is currently freely available on the Internet.
While the committee recommendation excluded payment for content that is publicly available, it adopted the narrowest possible definition of publicly available, limiting it to only those works that are not technologically or password protected and which contain an explicit notice that the material can be used without prior payment or permission.
Moreover, those same ministers are also contemplating a new system that would allow content owners to file a complaint with an ISP if one of their subscribers has allegedly posted infringing content. Canada's rules for child pornography still require a court order before content is removed, yet if the Canadian Recording Industry Association and other well-funded interests get their way, the ISP will respond to a mere allegation of copyright infringement by "kicking the subscriber off the system."
With Canada conceivably ready to adopt rules that make it far easier to remove an allegedly infringing song than to remove dangerous child pornography from a new fee-based, surveillance-ready, packet preferenced Internet, it is difficult to overstate how out of touch our Internet policy process has become. Is this really what we want our Internet to be?
Michael Geist is the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law at the University of Ottawa. He can be reached by email at mgeist @ uottawa.ca and online at www.michaelgeist.ca.
Camryn Manheim, as Ellenor Frutt, appeared on her own show, The Practice, as well as guesting as Ellenor on several other David E Kelley Shows, Boston Public, Gideon's Crossing, and Ally Mcbeal.
George Wendt as Norm Petersen appeared as Norm on Cheers, St. Elsewhere, the Tortellis, Wings, and Frasier (plus, although only called "Mr. Petersen, on the Simpsons.)
Yes because, god knows, if we start by presuming innocence before guilt, who knows WHERE that sort of pinko liberal commie thinking will lead???
So I have to wait until the trial is over before I burn Michael Jackson at the stake!?
yet if the Canadian Recording Industry Association and other well-funded interests get their way, the ISP will respond to a mere allegation of copyright infringement by "kicking the subscriber off the system."
This is already happening elsewhere - I've heard of people getting notices from their ISP's about supposedly downloading this or that... when they're actually downloading something else altogether.
These companies just don't care if they pick off a few innocents along the way.
"I met her at the door with a loaded 44"
Our version was "the ruler turned red and the teacher fell dead" implying some kind of divine intervention in the whole sordid tale.
"Where were you when we needed you? [Japanese] girlfriend made a side trip to Chapel Hill to visit an acquaintance there during one of her stays here in Canada. She didn't have much good to say about the restaurants she ate at there when she got back, however."
Ahh, too bad. There's a nifty little place that has sushi on a conveyer belt. The color of the plate tells you the price. You just keep eating and stacking up the plates until you are done and then the waitress just adds it all up based on what plates you have.
I find it's best to go to Asian places with Asians, since the staff is more likely to serve you some of the really good stuff they normally won't give to gaijin devils. Not so much out of racism as much as not wanting it sent back. I went to one place that had an entirely seperate menu written on the wall in Chinese and only the begging of my Asian date got me the tentacle filled delight I wanted to try. The chef even came out and complimented me on being one of the few white guys to appreciate good squid.
Our rhyme had the teacher being hit with a rotten egg.
Speaking of comic book readers (and writers), is anyone following the new storyline in "Funky Winkerbean"?
Linda
"I find it's best to go to Asian places with Asians, since the staff is more likely to serve you some of the really good stuff they normally won't give to gaijin devils."
Usually, yes. But, if you should ever wind up in Ottawa, avoid Shogun's (on Carling Ave). The Canada-Japan Society of Ottawa has monthly meetings at various Japanese restaurants in the area (dinner, followed by a guest speaker) and this is one we've sworn never to go back to. Owned/staffed by Chinese who speak no Japanese and almost no English, a very run-down decor, and thoroughly forgettable food. You have been warned.
"Just dawned on me: PAD, what would you have done today, considering you were to write a ghost story, id this had happened to you?"
PAD: "As a seventh grader now? I doubt very much I'd have written the story I wrote back in the 1960s."
Are you really sure at that age you would have been consciously aware not to? The 1960s were not a particularly tranquil time in our history. Yet you wrote your story anyway.
KEN: "This seems like a way for PAD to test the wayers and see how reactionary and gullible you are, so that he can post another "The Sky Is Falling" story on how your liberties are being taken away, and if it weren't for him and CBLDF, you wouldn't even be able to buy Watchmen."
PAD: "Wow. Ken's really an asshole."
While Ken's post was far from thought-out or polite, some of the posts here seem to prove his point. This is not a Supreme Court decision, or a law that was passed. It is an isolated incident where the GRANDPARENT of the student in question took action to have him arrested.
But instead of having a "This is interesting. Let's have an intelligent discussion" conversation, there are plenty of 1984/Patriot Act is evil/ America is dying/ 2005 McCarthyism comments that pop up WHENEVER PAD posts this kind of thread.
It bothers me, for several reasons, which i can't get nto right now, but will before the day is done.
RE: Munch and actors appearing on different TV series
Well, I still think Belzer's Munch is the most impressive. His shows were disparate in nature and even on different networks! That, to me anyway, is a lot differnt than stars appearing in spinoffs, variations on franchises or shows that change their title as they grow older.
"Our version was "the ruler turned red and the teacher fell dead" implying some kind of divine intervention in the whole sordid tale."
"Our rhyme had the teacher being hit with a rotten egg."
I actually heard the version with "I knocked her on the bean with a rotten tangerine" first. The one with the gun I heard later on. I think every school community's got a different one. My school must not have had many with such a violent mindset. The worst we could some up with was hitting the teacher with rotten citrus fruit.
The one about barbecuing the principal was pretty much verbatim of how I first heard it.
Either would probably still cause a fuss if they heard kids singing them.
>>"Our version was "the ruler turned red and the teacher fell dead" implying some kind of divine intervention in the whole sordid tale."
>"Our rhyme had the teacher being hit with a rotten egg."
Up in Vermont in the early to mid 1970's it was "met her in the attic with a loaded automatic". Vermont, at least at the time, had one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. To my friends and I this was nothing more than a goofy little tune that we laughed at and knew better to say in front of adults unless we were looking to get a reaction..... typically annoyance, but never a follow-up by police officers.
I bet Joss Whedon and his writers are glad they didn't write the Buffy episode Graduation today. Back in thier time all they had to do was delay its broadcast. Under our current climate, they probalby would have been arrested, even though every aspect of the show was fictional.
Didn't something remarkably similar to this happen about two or three years ago? Maybe not out of Kentucky, but one of the Southern states (must be something in the water)?
The situation that struck me as at least loosely parallel -- as I commented upstream -- is the Kip Kinkel case out of Thurston, Oregon in 1998 (there's a report by the PBS show Frontline online).
Critter: The Fonz with six is probably the tops. However, I question whether "Fonz and the Happy Days gang" and "Laverne and Shirley with the Fonz" (which IMDB lists as "The Mork & Mindy/Laverne & Shirley with the Fonz Show") were actually separate shows; that is, whether new Fonz/Happy Days segments were created for the latter show. Back in those days, episodes of various shows were always being conscripted into other animated series (my favorite being a conglomeration of Batman, Tarzan, Zorro and the Lone Ranger that CBS aired in various forms for a few years -- and I think it may have included Isis at one point, too). Worth noting that this also puts Mork up to three (despite an earlier post, there's no evidence on IMDB of the character showing up on LAVERNE & SHIRLEY).
Laverne & Shirley, incidentally, show up four times: HAPPY DAYS, LAVERNE & SHIRLEY, LAVERNE & SHIRLEY IN THE ARMY (animated) and the Mork/L&S/Fonz animated show.
Richie Cunningham also shows up in HAPPY DAYS, L&S, FONZ AND THE HAPPY DAYS GANG, and LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE. And Potsie shows up on HD, L&S, L,AS, and SABRINA THE TEENAGE WITCH. HAPPY DAYS is gold mine for this game! And we haven't even mentioned JOANIE LOVES CHACHI yet!
Nat Gertler: I'm sure I remember seeing that episode of "Gloria." That series was pretty short-lived so I don't know whether it was ever syndicated, and I don't recall seeing it in recent years. Could be that I'm thinking of the episode of "Archie Bunker's Place" that set up the series, so I'm more than willing to cede the point.
Estelle Getty played Sophia Petrillo in "Blossom" episode: "I Ain't Got No Buddy" (episode # 1.6) 11 February 1991 according to IMDB.
Good calls on the Bradys (and I think Florence Henderson appeared on every last one, so she gets a boost into the five series category), Arnold Jackson Drummond, George Jefferson and Frasier Crane.
StarWolf: Since we've established animated series with the Happy Days contingent, Mark Lenard would count. That also bumps up all the other STAR TREK TOS characters by one series, which puts Bones, Scotty, Spock and possibly Sulu at four each. We're not counting movies here, though.
Hasn't Majel Barrett been the computer voice on every TREK series save ENTERPRISE? That would put her at five -- though arguably, each computer could be considered a different role.
Adam: Good call on Camryn Manheim, though it's worth noting that GIDEON'S CROSSING was not a Kelley show -- Kelley had to agree to do that crossover in a deal that let him crossover with the off-ABC BOSTON PUBLIC. Speaking of, Chi McBride's character is appearing on BOSTON LEGAL, which puts him to three when you consider THE PRACTICE and BOSTON PUBLIC. Also, anyone that made the jump from THE PRACTICE to BOSTON LEGAL is at two, including Spader, Shatner and Betty White.
George Wendt with six as Norm ties Henry Winkler as the Fonz. Good one!
I think this could be the new "Kevin Bacon" game!
"Hasn't Majel Barrett been the computer voice on every TREK series save ENTERPRISE? That would put her at five -- though arguably, each computer could be considered a different role."
and she might have done computer voices on other Rodenberry-related projects. :P
"Well, I still think Belzer's Munch is the most impressive."
Ever read his fascinating 'UFOs, JFK, AND ELVIS'?
http://www.randomhouse.com/BB/promos/ufosjfkandelvis/
In my case, it was just a matter of filling in details. After all, you don't seal the evidence off for FIFTY YEARS unless you're trying to protect someone. But it's a great read nonetheless.
I think the real problem here is that this kid is 18 and still doesn't have a firm grasp of the english language. I mean, I can understand if he is an ESL student, but c'mon..."It didn't mention nobody who lives in Clark County, didn't mention (George Rogers Clark High School), didn't mention no principal or cops, nothing,"
said Poole. "Half the people at high school know me. They know I'm not that stupid, that crazy."
the real problem is that the government in Kentucky should spend more time educating its citizens than persecuting them.
On the other hand, how scary is it that someone can be held on charges relating to terrorism and their bail is only $5000???
""This is interesting. Let's have an intelligent discussion" conversation, there are plenty of 1984/Patriot Act is evil/ America is dying/ 2005 McCarthyism comments that pop up WHENEVER PAD posts this kind of thread."
Well, anyone who hangs out here for more than a day or two quickly learns that a few posters are Johnny One Note on issues--if you've heard one "I hate this place, America must die, damn this country to hell,I wish that all intolerant people were put into a barn and their private parts were glued to the floor and then the barn was set on fire and you give them a saw so they can saw off their genitals to get away but it turns out that the doors were locked anyway ha ha ha" you've heard them all.
Like the old T-shirt slogan says, I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
"Estelle Getty played Sophia Petrillo in "Blossom" episode: "I Ain't Got No Buddy" (episode # 1.6) 11 February 1991 according to IMDB."
Checking other sources, it looks like you may be right... which actually has a real impact in the TV multiverse (it would mean that Empty Nest takes place in the same universe as All In The Family!)
"Good calls on the Bradys (and I think Florence Henderson appeared on every last one, so she gets a boost into the five series category)"
No, she wasn't in The Brady Kids, according to my sources anyway. BUT Ann B. Davis was in all four of the non-animated series AND the dream sequence of Day By Day AND an episode of Hi, Honey I'm Home all playing Alice. (The refusal of the Crossover list to recognize Hi, Honey I'm Home appearances keeps many universes from linking, alas.) This gives Alice either 5 or 6 series, depending on if you want to count dream sequences.
When I was growing up, the version of "Mine Eyes have seen the glory of the Burning of the School" that we learned had the lines, "We have _trampled_ all the teachers, we have broken all the rules. Now we're going to the principal's to flush him down the stool."
By an interesting coincidence, I was recently trying to find the music for "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" (to which this song is sung); and out of curiosity, did a Google search of the "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory" version. Curiously, I could find no mention anywhere of a version with the "trampled" lines I learned.
Were we the _only_ kids in the country who learned it that way?
As to "Glory, Glory Hallelujah", in our version, the line was "_hid_ behind the door."
On a slight tangent, in grade school I learned a joke about a kid who has to learn three words, and seeks help from his mother, sister and brother (or father). As best as I can recall from memory (though I have a 1978 tape of a friend telling the joke that I'll probably dig out), the kid asks his mother for a word, but she's engrossed in her own stuff and tells him to shut up. Sis is busy listening to her music, and says, "yeah, yeah, gonna have a good time" (more to herself than him); and the kid's brother (or is it father), is busy watching "Batman" and singing along to the theme song.
Next day, the teacher asks the kid what words he learned:
"Shut up!"
"Do you want to go to the principal's office?"
"Yeah, yeah, gonna have a good time."
"Who do you think you are anyway?"
"Batman. Batman. Batman."
A few years ago, my cousin, who was about 13 at the time, told a variation of that joke with a different set of three words (no mention of Batman, for example). Wonder how much that joke has mutated over the years. And, for that matter, how the _original_ version went.
Rick
On the other hand, how scary is it that someone can be held on charges relating to terrorism and their bail is only $5000???
How scary is it that this kid is being charges relating to terrorism to begin with?
What's next? A regular schoolyard bully being put on the FBI's most wanted list next to Osama?
What's next? A regular schoolyard bully being put on the FBI's most wanted list next to Osama?
Sorry, a lot of the religious right doesn't think there's anything wrong with bullying.
Sorry, a lot of the religious right doesn't think there's anything wrong with bullying.
Oh, sorry. I forgot - the bully cannot be a Christian.
Sorry, a lot of the religious right doesn't think there's anything wrong with bullying.
Excuse me? Any other absurd broad generalities you want to make?
Iowa Jim
I am in complete agreement that the reaction to this kid is wrong. Based on the stated facts, he should not have been arrested.
My problem is the way some of you seem to think this is a result of "Republican" / "Conservative" thinking. That is so absurd it is laughable. This thinking is not solely Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. You find examples of this, or variations thereof, in school districts of all political and philosophical stripes. Yes, I 100% agree there is a problem. But the "evil" republicans/conservatives are not the source. They (we) can be guilty at times, but we are not alone. (My wife recently learned of a student who was suspended simply for pulling a cell phone out of his backpack to see if it was off. With that type of "Zero tolerance" going on, little wonder they would react to a kid as they did in this case.)
Since most school administration and teachers (based on numerous surveys), and quite a few school board members, are more liberal, it is rather funny to think "my side" has that much influence on the school system. But if you want to blame us and not look for the real root of this particular problem, go right ahead. Just don't expect anything to really change any time soon.
Iowa Jim
I agree with Jim. this isn't a left/right issue, it's a "zero tolerance" issue. And zero tolerance is nothing more than an excuse for adults in positions of authority and responsibility to absolve themselves of any culpability for enforcing discipline.
Admittedly, teachers and administrators are placed in positions of huge responsibility. Not only must they educate, they also must manage and supervise kids. And that means they have to occassionally administer punishment. And there were enough bad parents that felt that Johnny shouldn't have been suspeneded for that "harmless cherry bomb in the toilet" prank (despite blowing out the drainage pipes in the teacher's lounge to the tune of $50,000) and sued that adminstrators turned to 0 tolerance in order to be able to say "I had no choice." but it removes all reason and common sense for punishment. If it were our legal system, it'd be declared unconsitutional so fast the ink wouldn't have time to dry. But it seems to be acceptable for our kids.
One more check mark in the homeschooling column.
Sorry, a lot of the religious right doesn't think there's anything wrong with bullying.
Excuse me? Any other absurd broad generalities you want to make?
Sorry, but I call 'em as I see 'em. There was a movement to install anti-bullying measures in schools around the country, but they were thwarted by elments led by conservative Christian groups. No attempt to compromise, no attempt to modify the programs to be agreeable to all.
Sorry, but I call 'em as I see 'em. There was a movement to install anti-bullying measures in schools around the country, but they were thwarted by elments led by conservative Christian groups. No attempt to compromise, no attempt to modify the programs to be agreeable to all.
Having suffered at the hands of a school bully, I am all for dealing with them. Having read quite a bit of conservative Christian literature dealing with child raising, etc., the "religious right" does have a problem with bullies and would want it stopped. I would be very interested in knowing the actual details of the case you site.
In the bigger picture, your statement did not sound like a statement about literal school bullies. It came across more as a jab that the religious right has no problem "bullying" others around who don't agree with them. While that undoubtedly has happened at times, it has also happened from those on the left, religious and otherwise.
Iowa Jim
My problem is the way some of you seem to think this is a result of "Republican" / "Conservative" thinking.
Funny, I haven't seen any of that.
However, when the kid is being charged with TERRORISM, I have to blame our current Idiot in Chief.
On top of Old Smokey,
All covered with blood,
I shot my teacher
with a .44 Slug
I went to her funeral,
I went to her grave
Some people threw flowers,
I threw a grendade
After the funeral,
just to make sure she was dead,
I took out my bazooka,
and blew off her head!!
Bill Hicks, that well-known lawyer said:
"Yes because, god knows, if we start by presuming innocence before guilt, who knows WHERE that sort of pinko liberal commie thinking will lead???"
There is a difference between presumption of innocence in a legal sense, and presumption of innocence in everyday life. Perhaps you would like to chastise all the people who think Michael Jackson is guilty despite the lack of a verdict?
Twit.
Bill,
"Lisa and I are moving east come summer, and once we're settled in our new abode I may well consider something like that. (Of course, Thomas would undoubtedly say I'm part of the problem. :-)"
Tim, where are you guys heading? If it's in North Carolina, look me up. I know some great sushi restaurants in Chapel Hill.
1) We don't eat sushi. :-) (I know, I know, we're the only two people in the state of California who can say that...)
2) Nowhere near NC, no. We don't know the exact place yet (as there are little things like me finding a job that need to get worked out first), but somewhere in northern New Jersey. Lisa's got a professorship waiting for her -- and whither she goest, I go.
TWL
Tim,
Congratulations to Lisa. There are some fine schools in Northern New Jersey and it's a nice place, once you get used to the awful smell. Sorry, that the New Yorker in me talking. No, Jersey is a fine place, actually I have a good number of my ex-wife's family living there (and I still consider them to be part of my family as well). Good place to raise kids and close enough to NYC for those excursions to the Big City. Beastly housing costs but probably a bargain to a Californian. :)
Don't like sushi??? Wow...I've heard of that...but to actually see it...
MTS, I just wanted to thank you for reciting that wonderful piece of poetry that many of us loved in our childhood. :)
However, when the kid is being charged with TERRORISM, I have to blame our current Idiot in Chief.
That is as lame as saying bill Clinton should be blamed for those teen kids who were kicked out of school because another teen girl gave them oral sex. I hate to remind you, but Bush did not invent the problem of terrorism. And it was a massive attack on our soil that has elevated it to the level of fear that currently exists.
This overreaction has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with how screwed up our school system is these days.
Iowa Jim
This whole discussion sorta plays right into the theme of my screenplay, which has been happening a LOT over the last few weeks. Both sides in a conflict believe that THEY are the good guys and both sides want to completely eliminate the other FOR THE GOOD OF ALL. A question that comes to mind, though, is what responsibility is being assigned to the kid's teacher? Not that too many of mine REALLY understood creativity or individuality. I mean, surely if the kid's a criminal, then CERTAINLY incitement to criminal behavior is worth a night or two in jail, don'tcha think?
BTW, Micheal Brunner, you didn't used to live on Pine Lane, by any chance?
I grew up in NJ, Bill -- you don't need to give me any warnings. :-) (My rule of thumb is that no one is allowed to diss New Jersey unless they've lived there -- if they have, of course, it's compulsory.)
Actually, Lisa's job is going to be all of 2-3 miles from the house I grew up in. It's seriously weird ... especially since my old HS physics teacher is still there but probably not far from retirement. The thought of stepping in to take his place in a few years is absolutely mind-boggling.
As for housing costs ... hey, Peter and Kath, you don't mind if we crash at your place for six months while we figure things out, right? (Kidding. KIDDING. Though we would love to meet Caroline.)
TWL
And it was a massive attack on our soil that has elevated it to the level of fear that currently exists.
No, it was a massive attack followed by a massive wave of paranoia, propoganda, and fear, all three of which have been supported and in some cases initiated by the Bush Administration.
Got people in Iraqi who are fighting against us because they think we're invaders? Terrorists?
They wanted Saddam just as dead as we do? They're still terrorists.
Muslim living in America and don't like what our government is doing? Terrorist.
Kid who possibly did nothing more than write a short story? Terrorist.
Man, it just seems like "terrorist" is just the great 'catch-all' phrase these days bandied about by the Bush Admin.
That is as lame as saying bill Clinton should be blamed for those teen kids who were kicked out of school because another teen girl gave them oral sex.
Pardon me for jumping in ... but what kids are you talking about? Unless they had sex on school grounds or something, I don't see how the school could possibly have a case for dismissal.
TWL
Pardon me for jumping in ... but what kids are you talking about? Unless they had sex on school grounds or something, I don't see how the school could possibly have a case for dismissal.
I am trying to look it up. It was in the news here in Iowa. It was a boarding school I believe, and the sexual act happened in the boys locker room. They have since learned that another one happened in the dorm, and a third in a local hotel room. All involved are under 18. I believe they were on the school hockey team. Because in at least 2 of the cases there were something like 5 boys involved and only one girl, they said the girl couldn't help but be intimidated and somewhat forced into performing the sexual acts.
The school, as you can imagine, is quite embarrased by all of this.
Oh, I found it. Here is the link:
Iowa Jim
Fair enough, thanks. (It's hardly that they were thrown out just for having oral sex, though -- there are a lot of extra factors there, the five-to-one ratio and the significant age difference being two of them.)
And yes, I've no doubt the school is quite chagrined (he said, avoiding the term "put out") by the whole thing.
TWL
Iowa Jim:I am in complete agreement that the reaction to this kid is wrong. Based on the stated facts, he should not have been arrested.
Disagree. So far, what we've got in the way of "stated facts" comes from four Web sources: the LEX 18 report, the Winchester Sun report, the SPLC report, and the blog-posts from "Icarus". (The other news links from Bladestar are all clones of the Sun story.) The assertion that the written material that got Poole arrested is a short story about zombies comes only from Poole in the LEX 18 story, and is directly or indirectly contradicted by (a) the police officer in the Sun report, (b) the school principal in the SPLC report, and (c) Icarus, citing Poole's sister, in his blog posts. Given what the local non-Poole sources say about Poole, I'm inclined to trust the judgment of local law enforcement pending further data.
Bobb:And zero tolerance is nothing more than an excuse for adults in positions of authority and responsibility to absolve themselves of any culpability for enforcing discipline.
Not exactly. Practically speaking, zero tolerance is an artifact of school districts' understandable reluctance to expose themselves to legal liability -- the theory being that by treating every student exactly the same way under announced policy, they avoid all danger of "discriminating" against any individual student.
OTOH, you're not far off in identifying the root issue. Schools today are frequently asked to act in effect as surrogate parents, taking on the role of caregiver and nurturer. But at the same time, we're markedly unwilling to give schools the powers of discretion needed to successfully assume that role -- when schools do try to exercise judgment in matters of discipline or caregiving, they almost always get sued. It's not so much a matter of schools trying to dodge responsibility as a Kobayashi Maru "no-win" scenario -- they're going to be blown to smithereens no matter what they do.
This reminds me of the time when I was a high school sophomore and, for my English class, I wrote a short story that brought my close circle of friends to the Dark Shadows universe. By the time it was over, half the cast was vampire meat.
I think I dodged a bullet by three decades.
And following up on the "Estelle Getty on Blossom" digression: turns out it was a dream sequence in the show, putting it in that fuzzy category.
I for one would like to read the story in question. Without being able to read the story, it is too easy for either side of this debate to spin the information we are given. That said, I believe that in this country you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. When I was in fourth grade I wrote a novel about zombies attacking my school. The school was named as my own and all of the characters were actual students. In keeping with the intellect of a fourth grader, anyone I didn't like died in the story by being eaten by zombies. It was my way of venting the frustration I felt after a long day of school. I did not grow up to be violent and was never suspended even for fist fighting.
**1Posted by Darren J Hudak
Some years ago there was a story about a kindergarden student who was suspended from school because he kissed another student. The principal was quoted in the story about unwanted advances and how sexual harrashment would not be tolerated in his school, never getting the fact that the kid was six and he was overreacting big time.
(the rest snipped)**
There was an article about this case in Ms. magazine that was published around that time. If I recall it correcty, the story they told was that this was not the first time that that boy had been approaching that girl; that he had been 'pestering' her trying to make her his 'girlfriend' (as six-year-olds understand that term) for quite some time, and that her reporting of the kiss to an adult was an act of desperation (the boy would not take 'no' for an answer).
I have no idea how much of the Ms. version is 'true' (it's a political magazine and proud of it :) so naturally it's going to slant the story to fit its worldview) but if there was indeed a history of prior 'harassment' by the boy against the girl then the principal's reaction is much more understandable.
Chris
A fellow on a mailing list I'm on has been kind enough to post a couple of to post links to a couple of story updates about this kid.
Here's the latest:
Details of student's writings revealed
By Peter Mathews
CENTRAL KENTUCKY BUREAU
WINCHESTER - A lot of people think William Poole is being unfairly persecuted for writing zombie fiction.
That's the theory on the Internet, where the George Rogers Clark High School student's story has attracted interest worldwide. But the evidence presented yesterday in Clark District Court was quite different.
Poole, 18, was arrested last month on a charge of terroristic threatening. Authorities said he had made threats against students, teachers and police.
Poole's grandmother found the writings at their Winchester home and was worried enough to call police.
In an interview after his arrest, Poole told WLEX-TV (Channel 18) that he had simply written a fictional story about zombies taking over an unidentified high school.
Sympathizers who saw the news story on the Internet have sent dozens of e-mail messages to
police, the county attorney, teachers and others. In e-mail and on Web bulletin boards, they have suggested local authorities are "idiots" and "incestuous hillbillies" who were out to take away Poole's right to free speech.
However, Poole's teachers told police they had not assigned such a story or talked to him about it -- and had they seen it, they would have been obligated to report him to authorities.
And, as it turns out, Poole's writings include no brain-eating dead folks.
What they do contain, Winchester police Detective Steven Caudill testified yesterday, is evidence that he had tried to solicit seven fellow students to join him in a military organization called No Limited Soldiers.
The writings describe a bloody shootout in "Zone 2," the designation given to Clark County.
"All the soldiers of Zone 2 started shooting," Caudill read on the witness stand. "They're dropping every one of them. After five minutes, all the people are lying on the ground dead."
The papers contain two different dates of Poole's death.
Poole has corresponded with someone in Barbourville who claimed to have acquired cash and guns in break-ins, Caudill testified.
No other arrests are pending, he said, but authorities are looking for other potential suspects listed in Poole's papers who are identified only by pseudonyms.
District Judge Brandy O. Brown ordered the documents put under seal because they contain references to juveniles. She sent the case to the grand jury and rejected a request from Poole's attorney to lower his $5,000 cash bond. He is being held in the Clark County jail.
The story has attracted attention from traditional journalists at 60 Minutes and CNN, as well as Web sources such as morons.org and horrorwatch.com.
Authorities had released little information about the nature of the threats, and many people assumed from the WLEX story that Poole had been made a victim.
"I do find it sad that they would stunt the intellectual growth of a young person that way," one Web poster wrote.
Another offered a suggested headline for a parody publication: "Kentucky Police safe from Zombies because of lack of Brains."
Caudill said he had received more than 50 e-mails and perhaps a dozen "nasty phone calls."
But after school shootings such as the one at Columbine High School in Colorado, where 13 people died, authorities must take threats seriously, he said in an interview.
"Do we as a society want the police to stop there -- that he didn't mean it?" he asked. "I'm not going to take that responsibility and have children's and police officers' blood on my hands."
Hi Craig,
Thanks for posting that update.
While not answering all of my questions it certainly has answered a good chunk of them.
Say Seeya
So it was a case of sensationalist reporting by WLEX in the first place, posting the story without enough details to be meaningful.
Good thing the English didn't have these kind of cops back in the late 1700's...
I don't think it's answered anything. Reading a 3 sentence selection from anything can be taken to mean many different things. The idea that the story was about zombies must have come from somewhere. Maybe that particular passage didn't contain the walking dead...or maybe the soldiers were shooting the zombies? You can't tell, and of course the police would release information that seems to support them.
In any context, this is a disturbing case. If this Poole actually was trying to organize an armed incident in the area, that's distrubing. If all it was was a ficitonal work of Poole defending his home from teachers-turned zombies, and his grandfather ratted him out, that's likewise disturbing.
The idea that the story was about zombies must have come from somewhere.
Well, if the kid was lying from the start about the zombies...
But trying to recruit kids from the school for something? What would that have to do with a story?
Either way, this case seems to be shaping up more where the sensationalization was due to the nature of the Internet.
Kid could have been lieing about the zombies.
OR, the story could have been about the teachers turning into zombies, and the kids need to form an army to defeat them. And some need to be recruited. Maybe he saw Shawn of the Dead, and included some kids that didn't notice that Mr. Gery the math teacher was now a zombie?
I think it'll be something in between. Overreacting adults focusing on one portion of a work of fiction. Internet gossips making huge assumptions on very little actual facts. Wouldn't be the first time for either.
And some need to be recruited
You've missed something: the article said that the kid was trying to recruit other students, not in his story, but in what passes for reality around here.
Craig, I don't think I missed that. The quoted story says
"And, as it turns out, Poole's writings include no brain-eating dead folks.
What they do contain, Winchester police Detective Steven Caudill testified yesterday, is evidence that he had tried to solicit seven fellow students to join him in a military organization called No Limited Soldiers."
The "they," if it's being used correctly, refers to Poole's writings. And the police statement didn't say Poole was trying to recruit, only that the writings contained evidence that he was trying to recruit. Which could have been a lot of different things, among which could have been a fictional account fitting within the confines of the story.
Point being, there's no where near enough publicly available facts to determine what exactly is going on. Unless the story gets released, we won't really know.
Incredible. Round up the writers of Buffy now, they're going down.
// I have no idea how much of the Ms. version is 'true' (it's a political magazine and proud of it :) so naturally it's going to slant the story to fit its worldview) but if there was indeed a history of prior 'harassment' by the boy against the girl then the principal's reaction is much more understandable. //
Didn't see the Ms artical, (was unaware that magizine was still being published actually), but what you state doesn't jib with what I read elswhere. (As usual I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle). What sticks out in my mind is the principal's "sexual harrashment will not be tolerated" comment, as if a six year old could really "sexually harash" anyone. (If sexual harashment can apply to a six year old kindergarden student, it is time to retire the term because it has become funtionally useless). Even if what you quote from the Ms artical is correct it still strikes me as an overreaction because it doesn't seem as if there was any effort to sit the kid down and explain the wrongness of his behavior to him. A six year old not taking "no" for an answer is not even remotly the same as an adult not taking no for an answer, hell it's not even the same as a teenager not taking no for an answer. Six year olds have, at best, limited social skills and they think the world revolves around them. That's the joy of being six. Social skills, including the skill to be able to accept the personal boundries of others, especially girls who do not want to be your girlfriend, is something that has to be taught. I have friends and family members who are teachers , when that news story was going around they commented how they had experienced the same thing in thier careers, any teacher of young children probably has, and they had never once considered just suspending the offending kid. They found the story horrifing and felt suspending the kid was doing the kid more damage then he could have ever caused to his classmate, and they deal with the same thing for a living, that says a lot to me.
Yeah, Ms is still being published. They went though a sabbatical/reorganization period some years back where they restructured themselves so they could publish without advertiser support (so the advertisers couldn't pressure them to stop covering stories they thought were important but the advertisers thought were too controversial) and they now come out once every two-three months. I look through it at my library every now and then (if I relied soley on the store racks to find Ms I'd only find an issue once every three years) and find much of it informative. I do have to remind myself though that they are not an unbiased source of news and to filter their content accorddingly.
It had been some years since I've read that article, and my memory of some of it might be wrong. If I get a chance in the next few days I'll make a trip to the library and see which issue it was printed in and refresh my memory of what they printed about the case. I searched their website to see if it was on-line but I don't think it is (I couldn't recall enough significant details about the case to set the search filter to give me the relevant link(s). ).
Chris
But this all avoids the larger issue: where oh where can a person get t he chance to see a regular poster on this blog in a genuine 20 minute zombie movie? Well, it just so happens that the zombie short I was working on, SECOND DEATH, will have its world premiere at Kings in Raleigh, April 16th. A mere $7 cover charge and you also get to hear 3 ear bleedingly loud bands. Further info at www.seconddeath.com.
I get my innards ripped from my body in full color, if that's a further incentive to show up...
Darren J Hudak: (assuming you, or anyone else is still reading this entry)
I went to the library today and was unable to locate the actual physical issue of Ms that had the article in question (the library doesn't have physical copies of Ms beyond 2002 and doesn't have them on microfiche either). With the help of a librarian though I was able to find out that the most likely issue that had the article I read (neither the article itself nor that issue is online that I can tell) is the May/June 1998 one. The article/series of articles is called 'Backlash Boogie'.
Hopefully you have access to a larger library than I do :) and can find that issue and see for yourself what it said.
Chris
I've been trying to learn more about this story from surfing a few sites and can't seem to learn a whole lot about it. One article I read said weapons were involved
http://www.winchestersun.com/articles/2005/02/24/local_news/news01.txt
Who knows? Hopefully the truth will come out.
Craig J. Ries,
"Isn't America wonderful?"
Yes. It is.
"How scary is it that this kid is being charged with terrorism to begin with?"
He is not. He is being charged with 'terroristic threatening', which could be as simple as telling someone 'I'm going to kick your ass.'
"What's next? A regular schoolyard bully being put on the FBI's Most-Wanted List next to Osama"
No, what's next is you being your usual illogical, melodramatic self.
"I forgot - the bully cannot be a Christian."
I don't know what's worse. That you would never make such an irrational and hateful generalization substtuting Muslim or Jew for Christian, or that far more people would call you on it if you did, yet remain silent now.
"However, when the kid is charged with TERRORISM, I have to blame our current Idiot-In-Chief."
Since you still fail to comprehend the difference between what the kid is being charged with and being accused of being a terrorist, maybe you should watch who you call an idiot. people in glass houses and all...
'And it was a massive attack on our soil that has elevated t to the level of fear that currently exists.'
"No. It was a massive attack followed by a massive wave of paranoia, propaganda and fear, all of which have been supported and in some cases initiated by the Bush Administration."
I dont know what Bush has initiated in relation to the above three characteristics, but you sure display a healthy dose of all three.
"Kid who possibly did nothing more than write a short story? Terrorist.
Man, it just seems like 'terrorist' is just the great 'catch-all' phrase these days bandied about by the Bush Admin."
Forgetting that further investigation has shown this kid did more than just write a short story...your post still makes no sense! Please cite me on e instance where the Bush Administration ever called this kid a terrorist. You can't, because they didn't.
I'm sorry, I forget you're increasingly incapable of making rational arguments and seem determined to include Bush-bashing and or Christan-bashing into virtually everything you post, regardless if they're related to the topic at hand.
I LIVE IN WINCHESTER KENTUCKY AND I KNEW WILLIAM POOLE...WE WERE IN INTRO TO CARPENTRY..HA HA...IF HE WAS A THREAT HE WOULD HAVE KILLED US ALL THEN RIGHT?..ACTUALLY HE COULD BARELY USE A SKILL SAW...
HE WAS NO HARM...
I STILL ATTEND GEORGE ROGERS CLARK HIGH SCHOOL IM A JUNIOR AND IN MY ENGLISH CLASS LAST WEEK WE WROTH ABOUT A FICTIONAL BANK ROBBERY WE HAD TO DESCRIBE DIFFERENT ROLES OF PEOPLE AT THE BANK..(what they saw, what they thought)..... IT WAS FICTION... IT DIDNT HURT ANYONE. IT WAS HARMLESS.