PeterDavid.net

Well, one suggestion I might make is to visit such boards as..

http://www.millarworld.net/

I've seen Warren Ellis and Ed Brubaker join in conversations about their work. They also solicit responses too their work and other opinions.

I don't know how keen you are on this idea but it might be cool. I know that a couple weeks ago there was a huge FA thread that seemed quite positive and would have been even more so had you been able to participate.

Cheers!

- Ben

BTW. The LCS I go to in San Mateo, CA always has my two copies of FA (the wife needs one as well. :) ) and at least 4-10 copies on the shelf for non-subs. They say it sells pretty well.. maybe all those people from modesto are coming up near me to buy it. :)

What about all the international readers of Fallen Angel? It's great that people living in the US can send a SASE and get the bookplate. But it doesn't help people overseas get a copy. I remember PAD doing something similiar with one of his scripts (send in a SASE get the script) to plug one of his books. But many countries don't have international reply paid coupons anymore.

What abouut a PayPal address to send the money to? I know quite a few people would love to buy the bookplate for a reasonable amount.

PAD, I think a lot of your points boil down to propriety; that is, you don't feel comfortable doing such and such thing to promote your work. That's a theme I've seen you express before, but I think the reality is, shameless hucksterism succeeds. The creators who are most successful are usually the ones who get out everywhere and relentlessly talk up their work at every opportunity, ignore the naysayers, and cultivate the faithful. They won't let you ignore them. Is it tacky? Maybe, but it works. So I guess the choice for you is undignified success or dignified failure.

Brian wrote in his blog:
>So if you tell me that there are stores out there that are turning down legitimate preorders, I’ll shake my head and say “Wow, sounds dumb,” but I’m not going to doubt you. However, I strongly believe that the number of “good” stores HAS to be high if only because they’re still in business, and comics are unforgiving to idiots.

Numer of good stores might be a bit more impressive than percentage of good stores. I wonder how much Brian has travelled around and checked out stores. Although I know of many good businesses in Northeast U.S., I could easily list dozens that left me with a less than impressed feeling. Heck, there are 3 or 4 in Northeast PA alone that leave me scratching my head. Bad stores do stay in business long enough to damage the public's perception of the hobby and tend to turn off many existing readers as well.

As far as the They Might Be Giants reference.... perhaps an appropriate song to utilize in this discussion of promotion and bad business is "Don't, Don't, Don't, Let's Start".

And I certainly hope Brian is wrong in his assessment that fans have already made up their minds and Fallen Angel is a lost cause. I'd like to think that someone who believes in tilting with windmills isn't a big believer in lost causes. Me, I tend to look at something unassuming, such as windmills or, if you will, Fallen Angel, and instead think, They might be giants.

Forgive me if I'm a bit off topic, but wasn't Don Quixote not only a bit off kilter, but the reason he couldn't tell he was titlting at windmils was because he had lost sight of reality?

As I see it the problem is not really on the retailers' end but on the publisher's. They have no faith in the product, they don't promote, it, they do nothing to offer incentives to read, buy or even carry it.

No offense, but the federal government does a better job at promoting itself and services than the comic book industry.

Reading Brian's blog and enjoying it. Peter - how about you do some comic book reviews on this blog, too? I think a lot of people would be interested in reading them. Your TV show reviews were always intersting and entaertaining.

Peter,

I do think his suggestion to be active on the CBIA is a good one. I'm pretty sure I've seen you on there before, just not activly. I know mnay retailers, myself included, tend to be generous ordering products from people we interact with on a daily basis (especially if it's something we wouldn't have ordered anyways). It's less of an issue with you, since I imagine any retailer worth a lick knows who PAD is, but it wouldn't hurt. I know I wouldn't have stocked "The Factor" if I didn't know Nat so well through the CBIA.

My 2 cents.

Jerry Wall

Tacky to e-mail? Maybe, but Barnes & Noble sends me an e-mail every time you release a new book since I bought several of your New Frontier novels from them.

Are you _really_ being Very Honest about the reasons why this book is a hard sell? Summarizing from your post:

1) Protagonist isn't a mutant.
2) Protagonist is not a scantily-clad babe.
3) Audience isn't spoon-fed all the answers straight away.
4) DC has isolated it from the rest of the DCU, sending the message that it isn't important.
5) DC put a "Mature Readers' flag on it.
6) DC raised the price.
7) DC is isolating it from potential Vertigo readers.

I like your stuff in general, PAD, and have done so for years. But I'll be honest: I picked up the first two issues of "Fallen Angel" and it just didn't click with me. No harm, no foul; it doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked issue 3, and it doesn't mean I won't like your next series, either.

But your first three reasons for Why This Book Is A Hard Sell boil down to "it's too classy for the average reader" (which strikes me as rather snotty) and the other four say "DC doesn't _want_ this book to succeed," suggesting that they'd take more satisfaction from the book's cancellation than they would from it becoming a franchise cash cow.

I hope you don't think that this is just dumb trolling on my part. It's just that I wish I'd seen a #8: "It's entirely possible that this isn't a great book; that the premise was too weak to spark initial interest and the ongoing product isn't engaging enough to hold existing readers and attract new ones."

Which is not to say that "Fallen Angel" is a bad book -- it's all subjective, of course -- but I kind of raise my eyebrows when an author blames the publishers and (even worse) the intelligence of the average reader, and rather blatantly leaves out the most important third of the Trifecta.

There was an 8th reason: People interested in the book can't find it.

Try this, Peter: instead of using the email addresses you got from other stuff to make a Self-Serving Mailing List (SSML), how about soliciting retailers to sign up for an SSML? Cut straight to the heart of the matter, and those who want to get emails from you will sign up, those who had just wanted to give you sales info won't.

Couple of things to add.

On the subject of bad retailers;

It really depends what you mean by bad retailers. To my mind, someone could be a smart businessman but a bad retailer.

And I know many of those kind of retailers, not just in comics; they may be rude and unhelpful to their customers, but because they're smart with the numbers, and because they've positioned themselves in the right place for demand for their product (like being the only game in town), or because they have some other feature that outstrips their competitors, they survive and often flourish. Many customers just don't bother with principled stands declaring "I will never shop here again".

Heck, a guy a Midtown Comics was rude to me just yesterday when I inquired why a #4 issue of a series which was only on #5 was marked up when #1 and #2 weren't. And that wasn't the first time someone there has been rude to me. But y'know what, when I'm in the area, I very may well stop in again.

And PAD has heard before about a retailer in Lindenhurst who frequently doesn't stock comics from major publishers and often doesn't fill order requests, but if I need a comic and I don't have the time to make the drive elsewhere, I still stop there.

So to me, the notion that just because someone is a bad retailer (especially in the sense of not caring about stocking certain books and filling certain orders) does not at all spell doom for them. If they're cutthroat, they may actually do a lot better than their competitors with a more customer-friendly approach to retailing that can wind up being more costly.

The guy I mentioned in Lindenhurst is doing better than his more customer-friendly competitor in Massapequa, and that's coming from the Massapequa guy. The Massaquea guy mentioned to me the other day that the Lindenhurst guy brags that he doesn't even read Previews; he simply orders based on how similar books have sold before.

Lastly, as to the primary reason why Fallen Angel isn't selling, I would have to agree it was in how the launch was handled. Besides the not-Vertigo branding error, launching a bunch of books as part of a new line almost never works. Seriously, can we think of any case where that approach has succeeded? The Vertigo line started off with an established book, right? Even the Ultimate line was built one book at a time. Virtually ever successful book I can think of was launched on its own. Because with any new launch, you need to give it its time in the sun. And if that sun doesn't come at the dawn of the book, its very hard to get back on track. I really don't know why companies (Marvel with Tsunami, DC with Dangerous Curves and Focus) continue to try this approach when it's failed again and again.

Let me echo others who note that the CBIA is not for retailers only. It is, at heart, for retailing issues, but the retailers specifically want to be hearing from the publishers and creators both for issues (like most of your recent piece) and promotions (like your bookplate promotion -- folks who got bookplated copies of The Liberty Project, Alice, or The Factor at their local stores likely got them due to CBIA promotion). I spend a fair amount of time there (generally with my publisher hat on rather than my creator hat).

They do have a separate section that is retailers only, so if they really do have stuff they don't want creators to see, they go in there.

It pains me to admit it, because I'm a proud PADdict, but I have to agree with Andy with regards to "Fallen Angel". I followed the book for the majority of its first year, but by the conclusion of the Shard storyline I came to realize that I just wasn't enjoying it, that I was continuing to read it in the hope that it would pull me in, and it never did. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is how I felt.

With all due respect to Mr. David, I don't think that this is his best, strongest work. And it's not because I'm waiting for Lee to fight crime in a thong, or because I'm a mindless mutant zombie, it's because there's a difference between spoonfeeding answers and not giving any at all. When every element of a story is a hint wrapped in enigma enfolded in a riddle, you end up with no hook. Lee's ambivalence could only hold my interest for so long, and continually promising that in Bete Noire "nothing is as it seems" only led me to respond with "Then what on Earth is the point?" It's not like she was a consistent protagonist: supposedly independent while secretly infatuated with Juris (who she professes to despise, only to have an unexplained change of heart), a "shades of grey" type who is only ever seen doing good things unless it's that troublesome slaver/murderess Black Mariah, she kills people but she teaches high school gym, etc. Keeping things fluid and ambiguous is fine, but I felt there should have been at least one thing that was clear, some starting point from which to decipher everything else. Otherwise there's no emotional resonance; Lee's trials and tribulations ended up feeling hollow to me, because I was so uninvested and disinterested in her character.

I support diversity in comics. I believe in moving away from superhero conventions and exploring new genres. I wanted to like this, and I stuck with it longer than I would have for any other writer. But in the final analysis, all the critical praise in the world doesn't change the fact that, if the plot and characters were moving in any specific direction, it took them far, far too long to get going. Commercially, I agree that DC and retailers share the blame. But I, personally, did not drop this book because of them.

I'm sorry, Mr. David. I don't mean to insult or offend you, and far be it for me to presume to dictate to someone with your experience and expertise. But I have to point to the possibility that there might be more to this situation than you've stated.

I don't think we're in a "pissing match" (I hope the dialogue has been productive for BOTH of us, as well as any other creators and retailers who might read this)

And it's not "tacky" to promote yourself. Honestly. Seidman even started a thread asking about it, and everyone responding would welcome you (or any other creator willing to help us sell books!) in the CBIA.

Time to go have a sunday off, or at least some of it!

-B

>

I find this to be such a lame excuse... in all of the comic shops that I visit (6 of them), every single one of them have Fallen Angel. But lets say this is a major occurance, DC usually is pretty good about printing extras for reorders so there is nothing hindering customers asking the shop to reorder a copy for them (or making sure to order a copy in the future for them).

The main comic shop which I frequent each and every week carries FA (gets about 7 copies) and he usually has two copies left over and they never seem to sell off the back issue rack. At least at this store, there are no new customers coming in for this book (yes, he carried the trade).

Personally, I tried this title but just wasn't impressed with it. The story wasn't that interesting (and no, not because there weren't any mutants in it nor that the female lead wasn't scantly clad). Also, I didn't find the artwork all that great. I guess overall this just wasn't the type of book that I liked to read. Sorry, but I did try it.

And just so not only PAD but also any interested retailers, publishers, or creators know: more info on the CBIA can be found at www.thecbia.com

I know Brian's a well-respected retailer, but sometimes I wonder if he realizes the damage that the limitations of the Direct Market have done to the comics readership.

At this stage, with so many retailers refusing to support the book, maybe this is the time for real Internet activism- giving the book away for free on the Internet. It's already occuring in some of the BitTorrent boards- a few clicks, and you can have the entire series. Of course, those clicks don't directly add to the sales of the book, but the exposure to the material might convince others to check out new issues of the book.

Of course, I can't- and won't- push this sort of activism on my own. I don't feel like getting sued by DC Comics, who have much more legal resources than I do. Nor do I have the slightest interest in taking a dime from Peter's wallet. If anything, I'd LOVE for Peter, the artist, and DC Comics to make a lot of money on this project. It's great stuff, some of the best I've read this year.

I'll conclude with this- Peter, if you and DC authorized trading the issues through the internet, I really think you'd see a positive effect on sales. This book needs to break out of the Direct Market and into the broader market of fans of good comic literature. Good luck- I'm still buying the issues through my retailer, Mailordercomics.com (who happily accepts all my preorders!).

"But your first three reasons for Why This Book Is A Hard Sell boil down to "it's too classy for the average reader" (which strikes me as rather snotty) and the other four say "DC doesn't _want_ this book to succeed," suggesting that they'd take more satisfaction from the book's cancellation than they would from it becoming a franchise cash cow."

You've taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty on the basis of that interpretation.

Everything I said was simple fact. A non-mutant--or, for that matter, unaligned superhero book--gets sales resistance...unless you're under the impression that Grant Morrison on X-Men sold the same as Grant Morrison on "Seaguy." Female characters have a history of scanty or sexy outfits, and "Fallen Angel" flies in the face of that. Spoonfed characterization is what fans want? You bet. Chris Claremont had his X-Men explain every aspect of their characterization in incredible detail. He violated "show, not tell" six ways from Sunday...and the book sold through the roof. Whereas the recurring complaint I get from fans about "Fallen Angel" is, gee, they don't understand her motivation...although it's been proven by others on this board that she's perfectly understandable if one actually reads the book and gives it some thought. And all the stuff that DC did was stuff that, well, DC did. I didn't ascribe motive to it. You did.

A litany of facts that are unflattering can still be accurate.

As for only giving "Fallen Angel" issues 1 and 2,well...that's unfortunate. Because you've been missing out on a hell of a story, and it's a shame that the avalanche of rave reviews hasn't persuaded you that you jumped ship way too soon.

PAD

" It's not like she was a consistent protagonist: supposedly independent while secretly infatuated with Juris (who she professes to despise, only to have an unexplained change of heart)"

There it is. There's the problem.

An "unexplained change of heart."

You say, Diana, that you're not waiting for spoonfeeding. If that's the case, then you absolutely should not consider her change of heart unexplained, because it's right there. It's Right There. It's shown, not told, which is what one is supposed to do as a writer.

There's the Angel, having run the gamut of emotions through the previous five issues. A lot has been said to her. The Shard has made her face emotions she thought she'd locked away. She stands there, outside the window of the ostensibly evil Black Mariah, whom the Angel sees herself as superior to. And she sees that even this woman is capable of loving someone, of giving of herself. She runs key comments through her mind and comes to the realization that, yes, even she is worthy of experiencing love. Of "staying to watch the sun come up," i.e., see the light. Know warmth. It's a knowledge that makes her smile. The shard, as promised, has given her what she needed. For the first time in the run of the series...she smiles.

And she goes to Juris...and he rejects her, apparently sick of her holding back. Her revelation is too late...but she's too proud to beg and quickly builds the wall around herself again.

It's all there. It's all right there, on the page.

But you say it's unexplained.

Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.

When you say it's unexplained, what you reall mean is...I didn't explain it to you. And it's just kind of sad that I would need to.

And by the way...issue #16 reveals that Juris' rejection of her is not all that it seems.

You should really be reading this book. It really is my best work.

PAD

I am sad to read that Fallen Angel isn't doing so well. It is a great read and getting better each issue.

Well, if this thread has succeeded in anything, it's convinced me to pick up the latest issue of Fallen Angel. Really. I'm gonna do it. I've mentioned before on thie blog that I didn't enjoy the first few issues... but I like Peter David and I want his books to sell, so I really feel as though I need to give the book another chance. I'd love to buy the trade... but I'm also really poor. So I'd rather start small with a single issue.

However... and here is my question for Mr. David: What would be more likely to send a message to DC: a spike in sales for the trade or for the series proper? Whichever you'd rather I'd buy, that's what I'll buy. I know I said I'm poor... but I'm also a fan. 12 bucks or so seems worth paying you back for all the comics I've enjoyed over the years.

"You've taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty"

"Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought. When you say it's unexplained, what you reall mean is...I didn't explain it to you. And it's just kind of sad that I would need to."

Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that's snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they're stupid if they don't understand it, then it really is a lost cause.

PAD, is there any way to discuss with Vertigo editors a possible relaunch of Fallen Angel, and, as Brian Hibbs suggested, under a new title? Perhaps even with a more widely-known artist. At least bring it up, and then offer that they watch the performance of Marvel's Runaways when it's relaunched, as both Fallen Angel and Runaways are books that launched under a collective "line" and suffered as a result.

As for myself, I don't read Fallen Angel for one valid reason: I bought the first issue and didn't feel inclined to pick up the second. Simple as that. Read it and didn't feel it was the kind of thing I wanted to read. I will admit, however, after picking up issue #2 for 50 cents at a con, I was a bit more intrigued, but I haven't bought any issues since.

Peter,
To echo some earlier remarks, not using every resource to help this book can have as bad an impact as those stores not stocking copies. I know that with the overwhelming day to day in the stores, I have no time to search out most offers or information save one main outlet... the CBIA. Your bookplate offer is a great idea... would I have know of it but for David speaking for you on CBIA? Probably not. That defines lost opportunity. I hope you reconsider participation with the Retailers who care enough to take the time to be an available audience willing to help at CBIA. In today's market, not standing up for your own work with those who make up 100% of the orders is just taking too much of a chance on too many variables. Website reviews are great, but shelftalkers and preview scripts will get you better results when put infront of the people most capable of putting your books in reader's hands.
Fallen Angel is a slow and steady growth in our stores, but many an issue has gone unsold to promote that growth. My reasons to order higher than sales, knowing my risk to help the title will cost me... I still owe you the gratitude of helping me when our Captain Marvel #2's were lost by Diamond and were unavailable for replacement. That personal touch keeps me pushing for you, the "Good Guy" in my book. Same probably keeps that one copy one Brian's shelves. CBIA participation gets you that "Good Guy" status for many whom you can't normally have that personal relationship with. I urge you to ponder that when considering the opportunity a dialogue with industry professionals in the CBIA might bring.
And while you do, we will keep fighting for a bigger Fallen Angel audience here, hoping that with others doing the same, it will find the audience it deserves.

"Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that's snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they're stupid if they don't understand it, then it really is a lost cause."

I suppose so, if that's what I was doing. Except I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying I think that readers are SMART enough to understand FALLEN ANGEL, and that it just requires a little thought, and that it's a shame if they don't take the time to do so, because they'd really enjoy the series if they did. That's a far cry from what you're accusing me of.

I can forgive bluntness, probably because I don't take offense at it. But saying I said stuff that I didn't say...that I forgive less quickly.

PAD

"As for myself, I don't read Fallen Angel for one valid reason: I bought the first issue and didn't feel inclined to pick up the second. Simple as that. Read it and didn't feel it was the kind of thing I wanted to read. I will admit, however, after picking up issue #2 for 50 cents at a con, I was a bit more intrigued, but I haven't bought any issues since."

Pick up issue #14. It's a great reintroduction and I think you'll be intrigued by where the story's gone. Then buy 15-18 as they come out. If that doesn't make you a regular, then it's definitely not for you. But I think it will be.

PAD

"You've taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty on the basis of that interpretation."

It's obvious that it's merely an interpretation. I would also point out the subtle difference between saying "PAD is being snotty" and saying "These specific comments come across as rather snotty to me." If I was imprecise in my choice of language, I apologize.

I sure didn't say anything that wasn't true. That is indeed the impression your comments made on me. No, FA doesn't have any mutants in it...but neither did 18 of July's top 25 best-selling titles. There aren't many books that center around a female protagonist, and FA was outsold by many of the ones in which the woman in question jumps around in her underwear...but it also got outsold by a few in which the lead female was quite sensibly-dressed.

As far as needing answers spoon-fed...hey, I stuck in there through to the end of "Watchmen" and to the last episode of "Babylon 5" and "The Prisoner." I made it to the end of "Ulysses" and "On The Road." More often than I can count, through movies, books, comics, and television I've been confronted by a story in which I had no idea where the author was going but I was enjoying the scenery enough to stay on the bus.

But I bailed on FA. I eagerly bought #1, I bought #2. I read #3 and put it back on the rack, did the same with #4, hoping that I'd find a compelling reason to buy...but that's the last I've seen of it. No harm, no foul; it just didn't click with me.

Some stories (to paraphrase Roger Ebert) are like waiting for a bus in a town where you don't know what the bus schedule is...or, in fact, if the town actually has bus service. If there isn't a special something in the story that keeps the readers engaged...they bail. Chester Brown's "Underwater" is a textbook example. Every panel of every page was, literally, gibberish. And I kept up with it for a couple of issues, because I wanted to see where Brown was going with it. But eventually I got the impression that he wasn't going anywhere at all. It wasn't an interesting book, and I stopped buying it. If FA's readers are delighted with the book, then I'm happy for 'em. But this isn't English Lit and FA isn't a copy of "Ethan Frome" that I'm forced to write a paper about. When a comic ceases to be interesting, I have no obligation to continue reading it, you know?

I should stress that I'm not arguing that the factors you cite are irrelevant. As a writer who deals with publishers, I'm all too familiar with the problem of a book that was launched poorly, or marketed incorrectly. But the fact remains that I'd be more impressed by these complaints if they acknowledged the simple, baffling, and utterly frustrating explanation of why so many creative endeavors fail:

"I did my best and I'm proud of my work; but it's entirely possible that intelligent and reasonable people took a careful look at it and then said 'No, thanks.'"

Buster Keaton's "The General" flopped, despite aggressive marketing and promotion. So did "Showgirls," given similar support from its studio. It happens to the good stuff and the less-good stuff. You can't predict what a reader will or won't like.

But if the publisher and the retailers are factors in a title's lack of success...then surely, so is the author.

That said, you have indeed inspired me to give FA another chance. You realize that it was never a case of my determining that "This book stinks and it'll never get any better." I just got tired of waiting for that bus. I look forward to seeing what you did with this series after #4.

"CBIA participation gets you that "Good Guy" status for many whom you can't normally have that personal relationship with. I urge you to ponder that when considering the opportunity a dialogue with industry professionals in the CBIA might bring."

Okay, well, but...couldn't it also backfire? I mean, I've been thinking further about it, and you know, I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers who--I dunno--know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn't it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I'm endeavoring to court? I'm not sure it's a risk worth taking. I may wind up damned if I do, so perhaps it's smarter if I don't.

PAD

"Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that's snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they're stupid if they don't understand it, then it really is a lost cause."

Excuse me, but I don't think that occurred here. PAD seems to have gone into great detail in explaining that all the elements needed to comprehend the book ARE ALREADY WRITTEN IN THERE if one is careful enough to spy them. Readers who are discerning enough CAN spot the conflicting emotions that are in play here.

However, there seems to be too many comics readers today who demand A LITERAL EXPLANATION for EVERYTHING that occurs, as if the ONLY guy who's allowed to employ metaphor and symbolism in modern comics is Alan Moore, or that emotions presented in characters need to be said out loud. Sorry, but I DON'T NEED my comics stories to time warp back to the era of Mort Weisinger in order for me to understand them.

If anything has been hurting chances of FALLEN ANGEL succeeding in the marketplace, it's mostly the fact that DC DOESN'T SEEM TO CARE if it sells at all.

KET

Actually, I think Hibbs' observation about the glut of comics is the most telling. At the current level of prices, and especially with no returns allowed, no dealer can carry everything, even if they somehow have the rack space. How can any title rise above the glut "noise level" and catch the eye of potential readers -- readers who'll then go out of their way to pre-order it from their favorite comic shop? How indeed.

It was simpler when comics were cheap. You bought a pile each week, starting with your "must-haves," and then, with the money left over, you grabbed a few new, interesting comics that caught your eye. If you didn't like any of the new stuff, you threw them in the trash, or gave/traded them to a friend, and tried something different the next time you went to the spinner rack.

But today, comics, graphic novels and comics-related books are so expensive (since 1968, comic prices have escalated at a rate that is four times the rate of inflation) I find myself buying just what I really want, and there is rarely anything left over for any experimentation.

However, there seems to be too many comics readers today who demand A LITERAL EXPLANATION for EVERYTHING that occurs, as if the ONLY guy who's allowed to employ metaphor and symbolism in modern comics is Alan Moore, or that emotions presented in characters need to be said out loud. Sorry, but I DON'T NEED my comics stories to time warp back to the era of Mort Weisinger in order for me to understand them.

I think I've mentioned this in other threads.

I think that it's not often recognized that comics have become somewhat stylized, and have developed preferred ways of transmitting plot, character and motivation. It sometimes is a bit impenetrable to non-experienced comic readers.

I think FALLEN ANGEL does not fit a lot of these stylizations, which makes it hard for readers to connect. But PAD is right; the text is all there to get the characterization and motivation, but I have to note that it is VERY minimalistic and spare (and again, not unlike real life).

But if the publisher and the retailers are factors in a title's lack of success...then surely, so is the author.

I don't think that's a point of view is worth noting from the author's perspective. It would seem to lead to self-doubt and second guessing. As the author, you have to believe your work is good. Otherwise, why create it?

Not sure if this'd work, but maybe you could write a short prose story that gives folk an idea what to expect from the book, then plug the heck out of it on the news and review sites, including a link to said story (which'd be freely available online). Essentially, a free promo copy, but one that would only cost you to produce (I would suggest an intro comics story posted on the DC website, but that'd cost money for the art and, honestly, I'm not sure how DC would feel about FA-level material on their relatively kid-friendly website [admittedly I've not given it a major look to see what Vertigo has up there]).

Which ties into my wondering if you have the rights and would consider an FA novel, either in conjunction with the ongoing series or separately if it doesn't make it.

Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.

When you say it's unexplained, what you reall mean is...I didn't explain it to you. And it's just kind of sad that I would need to.

I'm not comfortable with that phrasing, Mr. David, but I'll assume it's not intended in the tone I perceived.

At any rate, as I said before, I feel there's a big difference between spelling everything out and providing SOME degree of clarity. It's one thing for the plot to be opaque; Andy mentioned "Watchmen", but I could also point to Frank Miller's "Ronin" as an example. In such cases, I was patient enough to watch the story slowly unravel because the characters were compelling enough to keep me interested.

But when the protagonist of the book is a complete cipher, an apparent mass of contradictions to whom I have no access, it's quite another thing. It certainly doesn't help that, even leaving aside the issue of Juris, I still see her as a very inconsistent character: how many times can she protest to not give a damn about anything while being so obviously invested in EVERYTHING that goes on?

And it's not as though there's another character in this book I can relate to: you've got Hitler running a bar, Juris masterminding every dark and ugly thing that goes on in town, Black Mariah is a monster, Asia's a drug dealer, etc. It's a bit reminiscient of Mark Millar's "Wanted" in that the cast is so thoroughly unlikeable that I end up not caring about any of them. And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don't engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can't find in any other part of your considerable body of work?

"And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don't engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can't find in any other part of your considerable body of work?"

Depth.

PAD

"And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don't engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can't find in any other part of your considerable body of work?"

>Depth.

>PAD

As a fan of several of your previous projects and a reader who dropped Fallen Angel after 6 or 7 issues, I think that you are selling yourself short here.

Fred Chamberlain

Just for clarification, [i]Fallen Angel[/i] and all related characters are owned by DC, correct? Because I think the concept might actually work better as a prose novel. If you own the characters, take them back and use them somewhere else. And even if [i]Fallen Angel[/i] is work-for-hire and owned by DC, the company seems to have a strong relationship with ibooks right now, with a trilogy of hardback books featuring three different Green Lanterns. Perhaps you cound convince them to publish a [i]Fallen Angel[/i]novel that way.

Please forgive the formatting above. I got my tags confused. :P

"Okay, well, but...couldn't it also backfire? I mean, I've been thinking further about it, and you know, I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers who--I dunno--know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn't it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I'm endeavoring to court? I'm not sure it's a risk worth taking. I may wind up damned if I do, so perhaps it's smarter if I don't."

Believe it or not, you're politically to the right of several of the publishers/writers who participate in the CBIA. But it doesn't matter.

A couple of things. We really avoid political discussions there. There are some joking political comments now and then, and once in a while a political thread, but if it does happen things are kept civil.

Also, there are several moderators, myself being one of them, who's primary jobs are to keep the civility and professionalism high on the board.

From my few years of experience, people might make nasty comments towards a publishers publishing habits, delivery schedules, or selling early at conventions, but they tend to be nice about political viewpoints...:P

Jerry Wall

As a fan of several of your previous projects and a reader who dropped Fallen Angel after 6 or 7 issues, I think that you are selling yourself short here.

Agreed. I've had the privilege of reading some AMAZING work you've done, Mr. David; stories that were meaningful and witty and emotionally evocative and deep without being practically unfathomable, stories that I treasure to this very day. I respect your enthusiasm for "Fallen Angel", even if I can't share it, but "shallow" is not a word I associate with your writing, past or present. So please don't ask me to.

From Peter David:

It's possible. Usually, though, the discussions are pretty civil, and moderator Robert Scott keeps an eye on them to make sure that they don't get too out of hand.

David Seidman

Okay, let's try this again.

From Peter David:
I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers [on the CBIA boards] who--I dunno--know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn't it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I'm endeavoring to court?

And from me:
It's possible. Usually, though, the discussions are pretty civil, and moderator Robert Scott keeps an eye on them to make sure that they don't get out of hand.

David Seidman

Peter David: >>There's the Angel, having run the gamut of emotions through the previous five issues. A lot has been said to her. The Shard has made her face emotions she thought she'd locked away. She stands there, outside the window of the ostensibly evil Black Mariah, whom the Angel sees herself as superior to. And she sees that even this woman is capable of loving someone, of giving of herself. She runs key comments through her mind and comes to the realization that, yes, even she is worthy of experiencing love. Of "staying to watch the sun come up," i.e., see the light. Know warmth. It's a knowledge that makes her smile. The shard, as promised, has given her what she needed. For the first time in the run of the series...she smiles.

And she goes to Juris...and he rejects her, apparently sick of her holding back. Her revelation is too late...but she's too proud to beg and quickly builds the wall around herself again.

That was a very poweful scene. Hard to admit, but it almost bought a tear to my eyes.

"I think that it's not often recognized that comics have become somewhat stylized, and have developed preferred ways of transmitting plot, character and motivation. It sometimes is a bit impenetrable to non-experienced comic readers."

I'm not sure that's the case. It seems to me that a book like FALLEN ANGEL would have more basic APPEAL to non-comics readers, as it continues to buck the current trend in comics towards nostalgia and over-stylized cliche. Perhaps this is the series' biggest marketing stumbling block, since this doesn't fit DC's all-too-typical standard for hyperbole.

"I think FALLEN ANGEL does not fit a lot of these stylizations, which makes it hard for readers to connect. But PAD is right; the text is all there to get the characterization and motivation, but I have to note that it is VERY minimalistic and spare (and again, not unlike real life)."

Well, 'life-like' may be the common objective here. Certainly a continuing series wherein one can't simply take any character at face value does seem to fly in the face of the current 'image conscious' nature of today's society.

(For an off-hand example, was it the exposure of Janet's breast that was offending, or the fact that she seemed to be the first CELEBRITY to get away with it in front of millions of free TV watchers? Would it have been less offending if the breast had belonged to Paris Hilton?)

KET

From PAD:
But you say it's unexplained.

Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.

When you say it's unexplained, what you reall mean is...I didn't explain it to you. And it's just kind of sad that I would need to.

And by the way...issue #16 reveals that Juris' rejection of her is not all that it seems.

You should really be reading this book. It really is my best work.

---

My Comments:

A) I agree with Peter. This is his best work.
B) It's all "unexplained."
Well, dammit. I'm tired of being spoon fed.
I LIKE intrigue. I like having to guess. I like having to interpret things for myself. If you don't like things left unresolved, or unexplained, you probably didn't like DS9, or the end of Pulp Fiction.
Fiction used to be about making people think, and now most of the time it's about meeting the Lowest Common Denominator.
I think what Peter has done here has challenged his readers into making them work a little harder in enjoying the story.
Now, sometimes, the intrigue goes too far. Like the X-Files. I mean, seven years and we still had the same crap over and over again. No one evolved. Nothing changed.
But FA changes... and grows... and it's not the same crap over and over again.
So, Peter, bring it on (to steal from John Kerry)! I love this book, and I will be greatly disappointed if it is cancelled.

Travis

So you want someone to buy Brian's shelf copy of Fallen Angel? Is the store anywhere near Central Texas?

Travis' Comments:

>A) I agree with Peter. This is his best work.

Opinions being subjective, we really can't debate this to any conclusion.

>B) It's all "unexplained."
>Well, dammit. I'm tired of being spoon fed. I LIKE intrigue. I like having to guess. I like having to interpret things for myself. If you don't like things left unresolved, or unexplained, you probably didn't like DS9, or the end of Pulp Fiction.

I like intrigue as well and have no need to be spoon fed. I do, however, need to feel emotionally effected by a storie and/or its characters. With Fallen Angel, I simply don't. Many do and that is cool, but this can't be projected onto me. Different tastes. No harm, no foul.

>Fiction used to be about making people think, and now most of the time it's about meeting the Lowest Common Denominator.

I won't argue this. What I would disagree with is an assumption that someone who doesn't dig this book, is lacking any of the qualities that you've stated above.

>I think what Peter has done here has challenged his readers into making them work a little harder in enjoying the story.

This may be quite true and has been for a plethora of writers throughout the ages. Some of whom I enjoy, others who I don't. The lagging sales may be partially attributed to many fans not wanting to think for themselves, but the jump that you are making here is way past that that an Olympian athlete could achieve, IMO.

>Now, sometimes, the intrigue goes too far. Like the X-Files. I mean, seven years and we still had the same crap over and over again. No one evolved. Nothing changed.
But FA changes... and grows... and it's not the same crap over and over again.

I read 7 or so issues and it did move forward. It did grow.... only not on me.

>So, Peter, bring it on (to steal from John Kerry)! I love this book, and I will be greatly disappointed if it is cancelled.

For the sake of all those who enjoy it and for the author who loves working on it, so do I.

Fred

Re Juris and FA splitting up and her apparent reaction to it.

That didn't bother me. It really did seem to make sense. Question being, how will that affect their 'working' relationship, weird as it already was?

Perhaps things shaking loose from the aftereffects will shed some desperately wanted light as to just what the heck is going on in the background which may, in turn explain some of the otherwise hair-pullingly incomprehensible bits (such as the thing with Benny still being out and apparently relatively free to do his repulsive thing.)

Peter is probably my favourite comic book writer and I've bought every issue of FA to date. Also I can tell how much Peter loves writing this title. Unfortunately I have to say it really isn't anywhere near the top of my list of 'Great Peter David comics'. I can't really explain why, maybe I'm not looking for incredible depth from a comic book, maybe that's not why I read comic books.

The simple test for me comes from the fact that I get one shipment of comics a month from mail order. There are probably around 50 books a month in the box. Great titles are those that I pull out of the pile first, there have been many of Peter's titles that have been on that list, 'Young Justice', 'Supergirl', 'Incredible Hulk', 'Captain Marvel', but sadly not 'Fallen Angel'.

Back on the maybe list, maybe I just don't like the characters, doesn't matter how well you write them. The more I think about it the less it's a maybe, I just don't care about or like any of the characters.

Peter, you ask if joining the CBIA could backfire on you, and conclude that since there's a risk, you probably shouldn't do it.

But there's a risk in anything -- if you convince the whole planet to read FALLEN ANGEL and they all decide they hate it, that could harm sales on your next book as they all think, "This is buy that guy who did that book I hated, isn't it?" But that's a risk you're willing to take.

The CBIA exists so that retailers have a forum for talking to each other, to publishers and to creators -- if you want to improve your sales but you don't think DC's regular efforts are likely to do the job for you, then the CBIA allows you to talk directly to the people that you'd like to see raise orders.

Will bluntness or honesty turn them off? Not hardly. For one thing, there are already people there who are known for it, and it's generally appreciated -- retailers don't get enough straight talk, so they're happy to get more. Even when a creator disagrees with them, an open dialogue beats a lack of communication. Nat Gertler argues with retailers all the time, and they may disagree with him a lot, but they don't penalize him for it -- indeed, many of retailers he argues with most vociferously credit his presence with their selling more of his books.

Plus, of course, you have a widely-read industry column; you're hardly an unkown quantity. Your brand of bluntness and honesty is already known to these guys, and there's a whole thread there filled with comments from retailers saying you should join up. Nobody there has suggested that you're too political, too rude, too anything. But they have said that being able to communicate with creators helps them sell more comics.

It's a message board. You can try it out and if you find that it doesn't work for you, you can stop.

But you want to sell more comics. Talking to retailers is a good way to do that.

Is there a risk? Not much of one, not compared to the benefits. I guarantee you, you've taken bigger risks, and probably without thinking twice about it.

kdb

"I can forgive bluntness, probably because I don't take offense at it. But saying I said stuff that I didn't say...that I forgive less quickly."

I accept your statement that you're not insulting the readers' intelligence levels. But you're walking the razor's edge when you describe fans as "not thinking" and wanting to be "spoonfed".
Intentionally or not, some of these remarks sound like put-downs and may alienate potential readers.

I accept your statement that you're not insulting the readers' intelligence levels. But you're walking the razor's edge when you describe fans as "not thinking" and wanting to be "spoonfed".
Intentionally or not, some of these remarks sound like put-downs and may alienate potential readers.

Which is why I prefer to say that FALLEN ANGEL is using stylizations that aren't expected in contemporary comics.

It's simply not true that the lead character is a cipher or that her actions are random or inconsistent; some people are picking up the inner logic and some aren't. What I think IS true is that the book is expressing that logic and motivations in ways that many readers aren't used to--it's strictly by way of the protagonist's actions, and inferences from their speeches. There's no shortcuts via external captions or other characters commenting on the protagonist. It's a harder act to pull off, but it's at least partially successful.

That such an approach may not be successful in the current direct market may say more about the market than about the book (it's certainly a truism that the direct market tends to reward the familiar and the recycled). But it may also indicate some ways to market the book (outside the general direct market audience and so forth).

Peter, I'm going to have to agree with Kurt on the BBIA thing. I don't have anywhere near his industry experience, but I do have some personal experience that might illuminate the situation.

Like you (at least in this instance; I wouldn't presume to know your overall behavior), I'm not someone who easily reaches out to people. Part of it's how I was raised, and part of it's general demanor, but suffice it to say that I don't easily take risks, sell myself, or enter into previously established groups.

And I tell you, it's kicking my ass. If I had to pinpoint one thing that's hurting me most in my current job search, it's that turtlish tendency. And let's not even get started on the subject of me and girls.

Long story short, this is a thing I don't like about me, and one I'm trying desperately to change. And based on that, I have to say go for it. As a wise man once told me, complacency sucks.

Hello,

I read Fallen Angel and had problems following and getting all the details. So I stopped reading it for 6 issues, but kept on getting it. I then reread all 14 issues this weekend and I enjoyed it a whole lot more. This is definatly not a "Spider-girl" book. Spider-girl is always self contained, easy to jump on to, etc... This is a take your time, read it all, think and examine everything.

All I need is for one or two retailers who--I dunno--know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn't it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I'm endeavoring to court? I'm not sure it's a risk worth taking. I may wind up damned if I do, so perhaps it's smarter if I don't.

Oh c'mon. I hate your politics but I still buy your stuff. Well, not FA, because I think it sucks, but just about everything else. Well, okay except for Captain Marvel. Okay, that and Captain Marvel, but everything else. Well. almost... but hey, I come here and read you for free a lot. That's gotta count some.

Shoot, now I have to get my wallet and go to the comic book store.

The reason why I like Fallen Angel so much is what makes it such a hard sell. For all its trappings Fallen Angel is a mystery novel with each issue being a chapter in that novel. Like any good mystery novel you aren’t supposed to solve the plot of the book, or the motivations of the principal characters until after being blown away by the climax of the story. In a good mystery it’s only in rereading the book do you see all the threads that bind the story into a grand tapestry of fiction. A perfect example from Peter’s work of a mystery novel done right are the Apropos novels. You need to reread each book in the series at least twice before you can unravel all of its layers.

I gave the book 13 issues to grab me...it just didn't. I can recite every plot and sublot of your Hulk run, Sandman, Lucifer, Strangers in Paradise, Bone, Transmetropolitan...but I couldn't tell you a thing about Fallen Angel. It just didn't make an impression. Sorry.

As for the mailing list of "PAD-Friendly stores" Why not ask in your next BID "I'd like to assemble a mailing list of PAD Friendly Stores. If you're a PAD Friendly Store, please send me your contact info." That takes care of the whole issue over tackyness.

I'm reminded of an old movie critic named Manny Farber. He worked in the late 1950's, and was angry that the better films in the theatres were being ignored, by both the mass audience and the more pretentious film critics. He addressed this all in an essay entitled "Blame the Audience."

Sometimes it's a cheap shot to blame the audience. But sometimes it's not. This is a judgment call, but in many aspects, Mr. David's right. A lot of comic fans are conservative in their tastes, and they only shop for new material on the basis of "just like/but different." Such as, "GEN 13" is "just like" "X-Men"..."but different."

Thus, women with breasts bigger than their heads, explanations of a person's character so the reader can think the book is "deep" without doing any real mental work, the belief that "mutants are good because they're outcasts like gays and minorities and depressed people, so they fit in with my self-image, and other superheroes are bad" and all the rest of that nonsense.

I hate talking about myself, let alone bragging, but I bought the first "Fallen Angel" and have kept buying it, despite my wondering where the title was going. I'm still not sure where it's going, but the ride is getting more interesting. I'm now committed to riding this horse to wherever it goes...as long as it goes.

I was almost going to say that someone like Tim Burton ought to make a "Fallen Angel" movie, but then I realized that this material is way too smart and deep for him.

Forgot to mention the "PAD friendly store" idea. This idea seems wrong on a very simple basis: a writer of mass media should ensure that his work gets placed in as wide a variety of places as possible.

Creating a "most favored nations" list of stores may convince other stores not to carry any of Mr. David's books. "They've got David's books, why should I bother risking my own cash?" And as proof of this, look no further than the back pages of most CrossGen comics, which cut back even further on the story content of their books to run lists of their "favorite" retailers. Sure worked out well for them, didn't it?

Comparing Peter having a list of stores that have a good fan base for him and are receptive to hearing from him is hardly the same as Crossgen going out of business and that having something to do with the retailer listing in the back.

Creating a "most favored nations" list of stores may convince other stores not to carry any of Mr. David's books. "They've got David's books, why should I bother risking my own cash?" And as proof of this, look no further than the back pages of most CrossGen comics, which cut back even further on the story content of their books to run lists of their "favorite" retailers. Sure worked out well for them, didn't it?

CrossGen didn't cut back on story pages. They always had house ads at the back of their books. I also think their collapse had very little to do with them running a list of stores that carried their books.

-Ralf

Ralf:

>CrossGen didn't cut back on story pages. They always had house ads at the back of their books. I also think their collapse had very little to do with them running a list of stores that carried their books.

My understanding was that they expanded their line too fast, spent beyond their means, and then lost a few million to Barnes & Noble, who owed that money to them when the bookstore chain declared bankrupcy.

Fred

For me it's like spinach. Some people love spinach, they tell me how good it is, and how good for me, but damn it, I really just hate the way spinach tastes. And no matter how many times I try it, or how many people tell me they love it, and that this time maybe I'll like it too, it still tastes like bitter grass to me. I realize some people like it, I know it is supposed to be good for me, but it doesn't taste remotely good to me.

Stories and writers are like that too. Some are very good, and lots of people really enjoy them. Others don't care for them at all. I like some writer's work, while not enjoying others. Sometimes I even like one story from a particular writer while not liking another from the same writer. Just because somebody tells me a story is good doesn't mean I will like it. It may very well be the writers best work, and still not spark an interest.

There are many great writers (of comics and other forms) that just don't do anything for me. Is that my fault? The writer's? Anybody's? Or is it just personal taste? I can certainly appreciate a writer's talent while not enjoying his work. Should I buy things that I don't enjoy just because the writer is a favorite?

Personally, I think people should only buy what they truly love, not out of some perceived obligation to keep a work going just because you like the writer or artist. If you love it, fine, but don't expect others to feel the same way.

William:

>For me it's like spinach. Some people love spinach, they tell me how good it is, and how good for me, but damn it, I really just hate the way spinach tastes. And no matter how many times I try it, or how many people tell me they love it, and that this time maybe I'll like it too, it still tastes like bitter grass to me. I realize some people like it, I know it is supposed to be good for me, but it doesn't taste remotely good to me.

Hmmmm... Popeye likes spinach..... Popeye was once written by PAD.... hence, spinach can be linked to PAD by only 2 degrees of seperation. Now if only we can connect him with Kevin Bacon.... :)

Fred

Fred, you can eat bacon with spinach.

Or.

Popeye was played by Robin Williams in the movie of the same title.
Robin Williams was in Good Will Hunting with Matt Damon.
Matt Damon was in Saving Private Ryan with Tom Hanks.
Tom Hanks was in Apollo 13 with Keven Bacon.

So therefore, everyone who likes bacon, spinach, Popeye, Robin Williams, Tom Hanks, or Kevin Bacan will obviously love Fallen Angel and should buy it. But I digress...

Truly seriously, I've talked up Fallen Angel to friends and on Geoff Johns' Boards. I put it on my pull list to hoping it would encourage my retailer to buy another copy for the shelf. It buy my books as they come out because I think "wait for the trade" can kill a good book in its infancy. I'm trying. I leave it to people more knowledgable than I to come up with actions to take above the grass-roots level.

I could have missed it but I don't think Barnes & Noble has ever declared bankruptcy. What they may have done to Crossgen is drag their feet paying their bills. All of the bigger companies are pretty bad about it. Diamand has done it to many of the small press.

It seems I also leave it to others to read posts that I haven't properly proofread. My apologies.

I'll do that in one less step, David:

Kevin Bacon was in "Footloose."
So was John Lithgow, who was in "The World According to Garp." (As a transvestite!)
"Garp" starred Robin Williams, who eats spinach in "Popeye."

Believe me, I was trying to work the movie "Babe" into this.

Chalk me up as another started-and-dropped reader of Fallen Angel. I'll buy a couple issues of just about anything Peter writes, but in the end, if it doesn't grab me, it doesn't grab me. After 3 or 4 issues (heck if I can remember how many I bought), it was like something from A Chorus Line: "I felt nothing." There was no character I cared about, no action I wanted to see through, and I had the sneaking suspicion that the mysteries were intended to simply be mysterious. So I bailed.

I'm sure there have been some payoffs and some great reinto issues, but I'm not biting. Once I've stepped away, I don't go back. (Same thing with Star Trek: watched those first two episodes of Voyager and haven't watched Star Trek since. Er, actually, with a couple spot exceptions, I haven't wacthed *television* since then. But I don't blame Voyager for *that*! Now I wait for the TPB, er, the DVD collection instead.)

Separate the two by even less: Bacon, when fried and crumbled, tastes great in a spinach salad.

This discussion reminds me a lot of what I experienced when the New Frontier book "Restoration" came out. It quickly became obvious that opinions were extremely divided and what I also found interesting, very much also along the gender line. There were exceptions, but male readers often had lots of problems with it while female ones (like me) loved it.

I posted my longest review yet, about 20 pages, I think. I even could have written more. I saw so much in this story. But there were some readers who simply wondered where my insights were coming from. They didn`t see what I saw. Well, even now, I can only guess if what I saw in "Restoration" was actually really "there", as intended by you, or if I simply had a too vivid imagination.

I think that is the key here: NF grabs me emotionally. When I read that series I love, I mentally become part of that world and these characters and very much feel with them. Without this connection, you have much more trouble to "see" such fineries. It has nothing to do with lack of intelligence but, yes, with lack of commitment.

But lack of commitment is not something an author should accuse a fan of. It is one thing to understand how the Fallen Angel thinks and feels, why she acts the way she does, it is another to actually care about her journey. People need to see a reason why to become emotionally involved with her, to care for what becomes of her.

I like Fallen Angel because it is an interesting story. I am intrigued. But, no, saying that I really like it would be lying. The Fallen Angel certainly is on the one hand fascinating but I would have preferred it to see a more likeable main character in this series. I certainly don`t mind shades of grey. The contrary, I find them very attractive in a series and NF is full of them. But at least to me, the main character should at least be predominantly positive. So far, the Fallen Angel is very much borderline.

I haven`t got the latest issue yet but so far, it is getting better but it is not an easy ride. Oh, I understand very well what is going on and I think, it is a very well written series. I think the more important question is, will I also LIKE it in future?

Peter:

First off, I love FALLEN ANGEL. I will continue to buy it until the bitter end. On the otherhand, all of this negative talk makes me apprehensive about recommending a title to others. I learned early on that I will get a lot of dirty looks from friends after recommending a title that is soon cancelled. I suspect that all of this talk may scare away potential readers.

I am sure that the talk about the danger of cancellation can put some people off but it shouldn`t.

My opinion always has been, what counts is the quality of the story, not how long it is. When I buy a book or comic, I want to have the feeling, I am getting a story worth paying for, something I enjoy. With this attitude, limited series should be doomed to fail and that is not the case. And a short story that really grips you can definitely be much more satisfying to read than a big novel you find boring or annoying.

When I like something, I promote it. I do my best to help it to survive because this is also in my interest, being the reader. I just wish I had more time.

But I intend to read the Fallen Angel again, thoroughly, after the arrival of this new issue that has so big surprises that it had been shrink wrapped (I doubt it that this helped sales, but that is just my feeling). Then I will write a review about it and distribute it.

Peter David has a Bacon number of 2 according to the Oracle of Bacon (located at: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/).

Peter (I) David was in Oblivion 2: Backlash (1996) with Jimmie F. Skaggs
Jimmie F. Skaggs was in Hollow Man (2000) with Kevin Bacon

So there you go...

"As a fan of several of your previous projects and a reader who dropped Fallen Angel after 6 or 7 issues, I think that you are selling yourself short here."

No, I'm really not.

There have been complexities in my work before, but not real depth. Not really challenges to the reader. This series has depth. And because it's a series with depth that doesn't say "by Alan Moore" or "by Neil Gaiman," I think readers get impatient or bewildered.

You should really be reading it. You should try issue #14 currently on the stands.

PAD

My two cents:

I am not, and never have been, a comic books person. Even as a kid, they never held any interest for me, and as an adult, as you probably have by now gathered, you would be very unlikely to ever find me in a comic book store.

However, I recently found the Fallen Angel trade compilation, and being somewhat familiar with PAD's prose work, I decided to give it a shot.

And after giving it that shot, I ventured this past weekend into the city, into the big comics shop, and snapped up issues #7-13. Yeah, I enjoyed it that much.

Though I'm a little miffed to learn here now that #14 should have been out on the rack for me as well. Guess it'll have to wait for my next visit...

"I think what Peter has done here has challenged his readers into making them work a little harder in enjoying the story.
Now, sometimes, the intrigue goes too far. Like the X-Files. I mean, seven years and we still had the same crap over and over again. No one evolved. Nothing changed.
But FA changes... and grows... and it's not the same crap over and over again."

I agree with you about "X-Files." I also think that "Alias" is pushing the whole Rimbaldi thing to the point of making me wonder if there's EVER gonna be a payoff to it.

But man, that is SO not the case with "Fallen Angel." I almost wish we could just put out the next four issues right now. It all comes together so perfectly. And I'll tell you this: Every single guess I've seen about the nature of Bete Noire is wrong, but when I do the reveal of it in issue #18--when the major collision of all the plot threads happens--the response is gonna be, "Oh my God, is THAT what it is? That's GREAT! What happens next?!"

Ideally there will be a next.

PAD

"I respect your enthusiasm for "Fallen Angel", even if I can't share it, but "shallow" is not a word I associate with your writing, past or present. So please don't ask me to."

Diana, there is no one harder on my work than myself. No harsher judge than me.

Now I never said my other work was "shallow." You're just using the opposite of "depth." But you asked me what this has that the other work lacks, and I'm telling you that it has meanings, subtleties and layers that my previous work doesn't approach.

And I'm telling you that anyone who claims right now they don't relate to the "Fallen Angel," if they stay with the story through 18, you'll have empathy for her coming out your ears.

PAD

Well Mr. David, I just thought I'd chime in here to say that you've done it.

I've been out of the comics reading business for a while, and was only recently drawn back in by Joss Whedon's run on X-Men (yes yes I know, the dreaded mutant characters). Until I started frequenting your site, though, I'd never heard of Fallen Angel.

Today, though, I marched down to my local retailer and asked for a copy of the trade. They're sold out, but I've got one on order now. So fear not, your efforts at promotion have not been in vain.

I look forward to the book's arrival.

"I gave the book 13 issues to grab me...it just didn't."

Boy, did YOU stop short at the wrong time.

Give it to #18. That's my best shot. If 14-18 don't turn you around, then fine, but you got off just as the train was starting to accelerate down the tracks.

PAD

I am a fan of Mr. David's work, and I feel that Fallen Angel is a very good title. It is a shame that DC doesn't take more risks on series not under the Vertigo [they should, considering the huge financial backing DC has].

I think I might buy the trade for a few of my friends. Maybe they'll like it.

I think that a lot of policies utilized by Diamond forces retailers to be leery when it comes to ordering new product.

Personally, I think the business would be a lot better off if DCD was forced to break up its goddamn monopoly.

Sevan Paris

I only started coming to this board as a fan of New Frontier, I've never read any other work of Peter's. I have to say, this whole argument makes me want to see what the heck you're all talking about. So I'll make sure there's one less copy on the shelf. Good work.

Okay, here's my two cents.

Mr. David (or Peter, or PAD, whichever you prefer), the one thing that stands out for me is that you have been promoting Fallen Angel #14-#18 like mad here on your site. I can tell that you are passionate about it. Very passionate.

So with that in mind, and with the assurances from the moderators (and Kurt fraggin' Busiek, no less), I'd say get onto the boards and talk it up. Heck, it's not a book I buy regularly, and the way you're promoting it is making me very much go over my comic list and see if I can fit in another $3.00 somewhere. I think that you're a fan of your own work on this book, and that's a good thing. And as a fan of yours, I want this series to succeed, darnit, and succeed big. So I'd say go into the CBIA boards.

"And as a fan of yours, I want this series to succeed, darnit, and succeed big. So I'd say go into the CBIA boards."

I hear what you're saying, but I'm still skittish about it. If nothing else, I keep thinking, Just what I need: Several hundred retailers telling me "Fallen Angel" doesn't sell for them and it's all my fault. I'm not sure how many battle fronts I can deal with.

I do appreciate your going out and supporting the series, though.

PAD

:Every single guess I've seen about the nature of Bete Noire is wrong, but when I do the reveal of it in issue #18--when the major collision of all the plot threads happens--the response is gonna be, "Oh my God, is THAT what it is? That's GREAT! What happens next?!":

Now, this is me getting giddy!
Whoo Hoo!

Travis

And I'm telling you that anyone who claims right now they don't relate to the "Fallen Angel," if they stay with the story through 18, you'll have empathy for her coming out your ears.

Well... okay, here's the deal. As a rule, I don't look back once I've dropped a series. Call me an elitist snob, but I can't really afford to follow books that don't hold my interest on a regular basis. And if this were any other writer, I wouldn't even be considering it.

But you've never let me down before, Mr. David. And if you say sticking around through issue 18 will change my feelings towards "Fallen Angel", then you've got me until December. But that's as long as I'll wait.

To continue the train analogy, for me #14 was that train hitting a major land mine. However, should writing die out as a means to earning a living - God forbid! - you may wish to consider recycling yourself as a salesman.

OK, I'll grab #15 and see if, from my point of view, the track has been repaired and the things is on its way again. I don't want ALL the answers, but knowing that SOME of it will make more sense in a few issues does make a difference.

Brian indicated that a store owner would have to be a good business person if their store had managed to stay in business...but that's simply not true! Many comic stores stay in existance because they're the only game in town. With no or very little competition, the store owner doesn't have to do much more than turn on the "Open" sign to get people to come in a buy things.

I live in Toronto where there are literally dozens of comic stores, but in most of the cities I visit on business, there is one, maybe 2 comic stores at best. When those stores are bad and still in business, it's because there are still comics fans in the area who would rather put up with poor service than give up their hobby.

Hello Mr. David,

Some good news for you entangled with some bad. The good news first, you got yourself a new reader for FALLEN ANGEL. The bad news is I had to go to two stores just to be able to find it!

The first store I go to is the one I currently have a pull/sub list. I had originally bought the FALLEN ANGEL #1 there when it first came out. I had to drop all my comic titles after that due to finances and getting ready for another child. Plus, the store had a worker there that just ticked me off on his comments about women readers, but that is a story for another time. I just started going back to the store a few months ago as it is more convenient than most in this area. A 15 minute drive compared to 30 minutes to an hour drive for the others. Anyway, I tried to see if they had any trades or back issues of FALLEN ANGEL comics to play catch up since I have been reading your web log about how it was one of your most passionate works and had lots of depth, ect. So I wanted to try some more issues before deciding on subbing or not. I couldn’t find any at that store! I asked the jerk worker where they were and he said they quit carrying them after #3 due to them not selling & didn’t have any trades despite them telling me they get all the trades now. Now, before you get depressed about that, let’s get on to the good news.

I decide that since that idiot store didn’t have any, I was going to go to my back up comic store (more of a warehouse for an online retailer, but the owner lets me go and shop there) and look for the comics as well as pick up my orders there. They had it as well as the new issue! I managed to get #2-5. Told them I would be back for the rest after my paycheck comes in! I also mentioned how I couldn’t get any at the other local store. The owner was VERY surprised, especially at their reason as FALLEN ANGEL sells very briskly at his store/online store. Hence the reason he keeps ordering so many back issues to keep in stock because of the demand. I find this interesting. I know for a FACT that a majority of the clientel of the other store goes to the warehouse to buy trades, back issues, and order stuff since we all run into each other and *I* am guilty of letting them know about it and their great discount they offer on all merchandise. And according to the owner of the warehouse store, his orders for FALLEN ANGEL comes from local and orders online! But it doesn’t sell locally according to the other store! Weird!

I have put FALLEN ANGEL on my sub list. I also plan on getting some others I know who would like it hooked. I need to get issue #6 before I try that as it is easier to have a complete story arc to do that.

I have read some comments on the log by others saying they stuck in with it till #2-6 and dropped it cause it wasn’t working up to anything. I strongly disagree. I will admit #1-2 wouldn’t have been enough to get me to sub, maybe just grab off the rack, but #3 on has got me addicted. So if nothing else, you did get a new reader out of this. And I am very good at getting others hooked so…>;)

Wishing you the best.

Peter,

I can't tell you what to do, obviously. But I also can't imagine, in any form, how participating in the CBIA boards and talking about your upcoming works can be half as scary as getting a high-profile public-venue Elfquest tattoo for the CBLDF. And if nothing else, you know you've got Kurt Busiek there, covering your six.

Geez, man, just ask yourself: WWCD? (What would Calhoun Do?) ;-)

Grotz.

--R.J.

Dear PAD,

Get on CBIA boards!
just do it, already! you keep saying how great you believe it is, you've gone to great pains to defend it against your critics even here, and yet you won't go on there because you're afraid of some retailers - most of whom have likely made little or no effort to promote the book - complaining at you because your book isn't selling? excuse me, but what was your job at Marvel before you became a writer?
come on man, you can do better than that.

Mr. David,

I'm also one of those that gave it a year and decided while it was nicely written it just didn't resonate. There was no one I cared about. No plot that interested me and the Mysterious seemed more a function of earning the "noir" title then functioning in the story toward any sort of payoff.

No. I don't want to be spoonfed. Yes. I like to be challenged as a reader. I also like to see growth and change and hints that manifest into something rather then being pulled along with no end in sight and no resolution being offered.

Now you are suggesting that in 14-18 there will be a payoff.

Might I suggest that it might be a more accessible and successful series if you sprinkled some of that through the first year of the run?

I don't think its realistic (or fair) to think that readers will hold out for a year and a half on a title where nothing happens without being offered something in the short term.

Take Fables for example... they're almost up to issue 30 and still pulling the reader along with what's happening back in the fantasy realm, who or what the adversary is... but I'm not furstrated with that series because there's enough going on around that idea that its still interesting. Characters change. Growth happens. The world evolves.

Issue 12 of Fallen Angel was a great issue. Made me come back for 13 even though I said I'd give it a year and a year only to show me that it was going somewhere. But 13 was back to the "I just don't care".

If you want this title to succeed as you seem so passionate about doing then I suggest you offer the reader something other then the Mystery.

A Big Mystery with no end makes the comic a gimmick rather then a story. And no amount of depth will keep a reader tredding water forever if there isn't even the hope of rescue.

Eventually we drown.

Maybe this was a weeding out process for your readers... who has the stamina to go the long haul. But that strikes me as a good way to get cancelled and a silly thing for a writer wanting a book to continue to think.

I was the last remaining holdout at the comic store I frequent. You had decent sales up through the first three issues and a continuing drop off from there.

Some of your fans will continue buying issues regardless. But if you don't want to lose more I suggest you not wait for issue 36 for your next 'revelation'.

Looking forward to your next endeavor.

Mike.

Peter:

One more thing to mention, I agree with all of the others that are urging that you participate in the retailers' board. You should not be hesitating to take such action. Why? You are currently fighting for FA's survival. It is being published by a company that seems not to really care if it is being published or not. If it survives another year, it will have to be due to the steps you take to ensure its survival. Pushing the book among retailers is the most important step you can take. If the retailers start pushing the title, it is more likely to reach new customers.

Other steps to consider. Redesign the web site to blatantly plug FA. From reading the comments made by just some of the people on this thread, it is clear that you have some viewers of this web site who are here because of your fiction. These non comic readers are potential new readers of FA.

Put FA #14 up on DC's website a week before the next issue is due. Link it to here. The latest issue was one of the best.

Good luck.

"Take Fables for example... they're almost up to issue 30 and still pulling the reader along with what's happening back in the fantasy realm, who or what the adversary is... but I'm not furstrated with that series because there's enough going on around that idea that its still interesting. Characters change. Growth happens. The world evolves."

And it gets constant promotion, instant trade paperbacks, and a built in readership of "Vertigo" fans. But putting that aside, the brilliant thing about "Fables" is that you are emotionally invested in every single character as of issue #1. "Fallen Angel" introduces a cast of new characters in a completely new environment and, as such, takes time. "Fables" introduces a cast of instantly recognizable characters, who you have pleasant childhood memories of, in New York City. It's not exactly fair to compare the two. And "Y" similarly has an instantly identifiable trope: Last man on earth. Again, instant sympathy. There's nothing wrong with that. Hopefully someday I too will come up with a series concept that would enable me to hit the ground running with reader identification. In the meantime, there's "Fallen Angel"...in which there has been character growth, change happening, evolution of the world of Bete Noire...and seven complete, beginning to end stories or story arcs in fourteen issues.

PAD

Peter, I'm sure you've read this many times already, but I also wanted to encourage you to join the CBIA. It is the best place on-line for creators, publishers & retailer to communicate, no matter what the message may be. Many of your fellow creators belong, and I feel very confident in saying that both they & us retailers have benefited.

Derek F

Peter,

>

But you should be thinking, "Just what I need: several hundred retailers whom I can take my case to and explain things like how issue 14-18 are critical to capturing readers, ect."

I've never seen any creator taken to task there over sales... only discussion on how to improve sales, emphasis on positivity.

You have said many things here that would help me sell copies. Why make me hunt them down, when bringing that message to me would help us both, and many others who could help put your books in readers hands. Address story issues, address cancellation issues, and tell us how to best market this book.

I urge you to use every tool available to help this book's sales, including what I feel could be the most important tool of all.

"In the meantime, there's "Fallen Angel"...in which there has been character growth, change happening, evolution of the world of Bete Noire...and seven complete, beginning to end stories or story arcs in fourteen issues. "

And in all that time I didn't like any of the characters, (Funny thing is I didn't realise that until this thread). Preacher was a disturbing read and yet I still liked Jesse, Tulip and even Cassedy. Same goes for the other titles you mentioned, I like Yorrick, I like Wolf and Snow, I don't like anyone in Fallen Angel.

Maybe you're right and I'll have a real affinity for Lee by the issue 18, but I'm a fan of your writing, which is why I'm still reading it.

My wife just said it 'Who wants to read about people you couldn't care less about?'. Maybe that's a reason no one is buying it.

Peter, if you do come up with one of those 'instant winner' ideas, please consider taking it to one of the independent companies.

Both Marvel and DC have shown less than proper consideration to your abilities. I say screw 'em. If you are only going to sell 10,000 copies, you may as well money on the book.

Peter:

As promised, I went to the store Wednesday and bought a copy of Fallen Angel. To be honest, it's still doesn't work for me as a long term comic I'd like to read.
HOWEVER, I did kinda sorta enjoy this issue. I like your wry sense of humor

"To be honest, it's still doesn't work for me as a long term comic I'd like to read.
HOWEVER, I did kinda sorta enjoy this issue. I like your wry sense of humor."

Ah. Kinda sorta. Okay. Not bad. Now...stick with the story for 15-18. That's short term, not long term. By that point, you will be 100% hooked.

PAD

I'm sure this isn't relevant to Fallen Angel per se, but how difficult is it to get a creator-owned book into Marvel's new "reward" imprint that Powers is moving to?

I suppose someone like PAD would have to get an exclusive Marvel contract first, but it might be neat.

PAD,
Sorry it's taken me awhile to respond more to this topic, I've been crazy busy!
But add me to the list of those saying you should try the CBIA. For the following reasons:
1.) What do you have to lose? The last Top 300 list from Diamond has "Fallen Angel" at NUMBER 168! 168! And it is falling every month. If you feel this current storyarc is whatwill hook readers (and I have to admit the last two issues are the first I have remotely enjoyed, then you should be telling retailers whhy, just like you do here. Even preaching to your diehard fans on this blog has helpd, but minutely. Why not state your case, and your suggestions, to those who can actually help?
2.) You're actually concerned that your being frank and honest may hurt you? Why? Again, what do you have to lose? Instead of carrying zero copies, some retailers may carry negative numbers?
Do you really think someone like Kurt Busiek would recommend it if it was just a bunch of retailers looking to "blame" you?
3.) And if they do offer constructive criticism or ideas about the book, why would you take it personally? Why would that be a bad thing? As you say, and everyone else knows, you have strong opinions about what retailers and DC's marketing department can do to help the book. Are you saying you are the only one who should be exempt from criticism?
4.) If you DO feel the need to be "frank and honest", you can do so in a constuctive manner, you know. I mean, I've seen you get angry with some of the people on this board who hit with you with criticism or suggestions that you take the wrong way, and these are your DIEHARD FANS! There is a big difference, for example, in saying, " feel the Bush Administration has a poor record" and "Bush is an inept clod". Both are telling what you "truly" feel, but the latter is a lot more abrasive.
Thanks,
Jerome
"Personally? I kind of want to slay the dragon!"

PAD,
Also, it might help when you get an opportunity to promote the book, like on Newsarama, you stop talking about what the book ISN'T and explain to people what it IS and why they would enjoy it.
Honestly, if I were to do a 500 word story on "Fallen Angel" and you spend about 80 words describing why it isn't selling better, (Your Famous Top Seven List= It's not a Spidey, mutant or X-book; she doesn't wear a revealing costume, etc.) those are 80 words you could have used to talk about the concept, the setting, the characters and what makes the book unique.
Plus, as others have stated, it can and most likely is interpreted by some that you are either blaming fans for not wanting to try a book in which they're not spoonfed and blaming DC for not marketing it.

PAD,
It might also help if you stop referring to "The Prisoner" when you are trying to explain the series. Very few people under the age of 35 will know what you are talking about, and few over 35 will either. By comparing it to what to many will feel like an obscure show, you again miss an opportunity to have potential readers feel they can relate to the series or give them a feel of what it is about. Describe IN YOUR OWN WORDS why you think the series is cool, and fans may say "I should check this out?"