PeterDavid.net

I wish that I had some ideas for you Peter, although Vertigo is losing this potential reader. I have never picked up a Vertigo book, but I do read Fallen Angel. If Fallen Angel had gone Vertigo, it is not much of a stretch that it could have pulled me into other Vertigo merchandice I would not normally peruse.

Furthermore, it is really frustrating to me, and becomes more and more so all the time. I do not enjoy flagship titles like JLA or Superman or Batman or Spiderman, because they are so rigidly structured into their individual archetypes that they are not very exciting to me. Smaller, under the radar titles, where there is more room for experimentation, like Supergirl, Fallen Angel, Young Justice, the 90's Hawk and Dove, or even JSA always satisfy me better. If I understand correctly, these are also the reasons for which Peter enjoys writing these kinds of titles. Where is my imprint? Why doesn't DC do a separate imprint maybe just for the small time players who aren't completely in Vertigo's twilight zone? Do they already have one that I'm not aware of?

>Why doesn't DC do a separate imprint maybe just for the small time players who aren't completely in Vertigo's twilight zone?

actually, DC does have a more mature title grouping, under Wildstorm. i was really surprised when i picked up Fallen Angel that it wasn't under Wildstorm to begin with. i guess because Fallen Angel wasn't part of the Wildstorm universe either?

A few crazy ideas

(1)A zero or 1/2 issue.(seriously great jumping on point)

(2) Wizard 1/2 issue(dunno thowing things at walls see what sticks)

(3) "I've fallen for Fallen Angel" T-shirt campaign for comic store employees.

(4) A Fallen Angel 10 cent adventure or 99 cent book.

(5) Comic shop publicity tour.(dunno about this one)

Umm thats all I gots

How are sales of the Trade Paper Back? I picked up a copy when it came out, even bought it from my comic store.

Jesse

As I now have a vested interest in the success of books featuring "extraordinary characters who don't quite fit into the DCU 'cause they're a little too gritty," I'd like to suggest a number of like-minded books banding together into a sort of "Max" support group (I use "Max" as that's the imprint name that Marvel uses for its "more mature take" books). Informal crossovers might work as well, something to tie these "don't quite fit" books together with each other. I'm loath to suggest something like "Focus" as I don't think the "Focus" imprint is catching on that much either.

actually, DC does have a more mature title grouping, under Wildstorm. i was really surprised when i picked up Fallen Angel that it wasn't under Wildstorm to begin with. i guess because Fallen Angel wasn't part of the Wildstorm universe either?

Yeah, it used to be that way, but with EX MACHINA, DC has shown that a comic doesn't necessarily have to be in the Wildstorm universe to be under the Wildstorm imprint. I dunno though...I just don't see FALLEN ANGEL as a Wildstorm comic...it still has "Vertigo" written all over it...or not, as the case may be.

How about-- no, Paul Levitz can actually write comic books.

Looking at the DC/Vertigo website, I found the following titles listed for sale in August
DC Universe (Vertigo-but based in and around the DCU):
BOOKS OF MAGICK: LIFE DURING WARTIME #2
SWAMP THING #6
THE SANDMAN: ENDLESS NIGHTS
HUMAN TARGET #13
HELLBLAZER #199
THE LOSERS #15
LUCIFER: MANSIONS OF THE SILENCE
LUCIFER #53
Creator Owned:
THE COMPLEAT MOONSHADOW
TRANSMETROPOLITAN: TALES OF HUMAN WASTE
Y: THE LAST MAN #25
100 BULLETS #52
BITE CLUB #5
FABLES #28
WE3 #1
WHY I HATE SATURN
Not Sure:
THE WITCHING #3
(I'm don't know about all the ownerships above, but I'm making an assumption)

So, out of the DCU category, we have HELLBLAZER, which is someone that wanders around getting into and out of supernatural problems. Closest I've seen so far to FA. Vertigo seems to be tilted towards the supernatural or dark future fans, which seems to me where FA would appeal. Granted, I've not read everything on this list, but I do try to follow the previews and story blurbs to see if anything looks interesting. I'm not sure what DC could do (other than advertise the book!!!).

Face it PAD, you're not hot. By hot I mean not on the Wizard (shudder) list of hot creators. Neither is the artist. You produce good work and are reliable, but your name alone isn't drawing the "fanboys" in. You have a loyal following of readers, but a book like FA is left out dangling on it's own. It's not DCU, but there's nothing on the cover that would lead the reader to think otherwise. I'm suprised that DC would have even given this book a green light if there are no plans to market it once the plans for the other "bad girl" books were canceled.

Ideas for FA:
More nudity.
More swearing.
More superpowers, lots of fighting and mindless destruction.
Change your name to Brian K. Vaughn or Brian Azzarello. Maybe Brian David???
Change David Lopez's name to Jim Lee.

This doesn't answer the question, but it's the little bit I did. I work at a Borders in Orange, CA. We only received a single copy of the graphic novel, so I special ordered three more so that we can now display it with the new books in the front of the store. If they sell, we'll get more. And if we sell a handful, maybe some of the other Borders in the area will get enough copies to display it as well. That's how these things work...

Dang. I wish I had some good ideas to offer.

I'll join with those who say Wildstorm's not a bad idea if Vertigo's said no -- for my money, "Ex Machina" is probably the best new title of 2004 to date, and it's certainly not got any connection to the WS universe.

Other than that ... geez, I dunno. I'll talk to my shop folks tomorrow and see if they have any thoughts on the matter for the Bay area specifically, though.

TWL

try this - During the Republican convention, spend the week walking around Madison Square Garden with a sandwich board saying "Read Fallen Angel, available at local comic & book stores".

At least you'll get fresh air & exercise.

:)

Um, I hate to say this, but one of the ways Marvel and DC gets attention is to hype some big EVENT. I normally detest those sorts of things, but look at how successful this big Avengers push is. Usually it's crossovers or something like that, but since Fallen Angel is off in her own little corner of Over-the-rainbow-ville, we can't have Superman or Batman paying any visits, nor can she appear in any of their books. Another problem with big events is that only the big titles can get away with them.

Maybe you can make the first few pages of each issue available on-line. Make a Fallen Angel web-page with a collection of reviews, interviews, and commentary from writer and artist. (And make sure DC links to it from their main page.) Encourage letters and art submissions from fans to put on the site.

I'd hate for this to happen, but one thing you might want to consider is changing the content of the book so that it can be read by all age groups. If that happens, it might be allowed into the mainstream DCU. The good side is that you can then use mainstream heroes and sell more copies of your book by saying, "Hey kids, Superman appears within!" Lee might also be able to appear in other books. The biggest problem that I can imagine coming from this is how you'd change the content of your story, and whether you could retain the tone and spirit of it while losing some of the maturity. That's where your skills as a writer would come in, and I've no doubt that you could pull it off.

Sorry, those are the best ideas I got.

How about doing an interview in Wizard where you agree to get more tattoos for increased sales?

1) Have Leonard Kirk, Ed Benes or Gary Frank draw a filler issue.

2) Have some DCU Superheroes who have fallen from grace completely appear in Fallen Angel, although most heroes wouldn't be able to get there, certain "fallen" heroes like Hal Jordan, Raven or The Creeper might fit the bill to get in.

3) Offer a money-back guarentee or have Geoff Johns do it

4) USE the fact that Linda might be Supergirl to tease the readers moreso than you have previously, while still not quite telling us.

5) Fallen Angel giveaways in the form of signed comics, scripts, original art, whatever, on comic websites.

6) Have DC post the first Fallen Angel issue or one of the one-shot issues in a comics on the web format for free.

7) Bette Noire has been in the DCU forever, we just haven't seen it before. But of course other heroes have at their lowest possible points. Possibly a flashback issue featuring a classic hero (maybe even a tie-in to Identity Crisis)

8) Keep the stories one or two parters

9) Popular cover artist

10) Kill off one of the main characters in Las Vegas and have the CSI team investigate (okay, reaching there...)

I would think dropping the Mature Readers label would be a start.

Heck, if a mini like Identity Crisis doesn't need a Mature Readers label, or a title like Catwoman that showed a villain forcing a guy's eyeball down a woman's throat doesn't need a Mature Readers label, I think Fallen Angel wouldn't need one either.

How about Nightwing's rape in #93 or the most recent Flash issue (featuring rogue Mirror Master) with drug use, not to mention the attempted molestation/rape.

If these mainstream titles aren't getting the Mature Readers label, then Fallen Angel surely shouldn't.

Would DC really object to this request now in light of what they are presently publishing?

PAD,

Well, this is a mix of suggestions/ideas and questions/ideas, but here goes:

SUGGESTIONS/IDEAS (Marketing/Story):

1) Storyline title: VERTIGO. Or something related to Vertigo only by name.

2) Greg Horn (or some other well known babe painter) cover(s). That way, the T&A might draw 'em in, but you didn't put it there.

3) Manga/Digest-sized BW trade of Vol. 1. Yes, it costs a little $$, but SOMEONE at DC has to know that the format doesn't lend itself to some of this book's untapped audience... don't they? (Oh, wait. They rejected the Vertigo idea...)

4) CBLDF issue, where anyone who works on the book will donate his cut to the CBLDF. Good publicity all around, considering the writer, the potential story, etc...

5) Crossover. Have a story where a character from the mainstream DCU shows up. Batman is my first and strongest thought, just because there would be any number of ways to depict him in a Bete Noire-style and any number of reasons for him to be there and still be recognizable. I realize this is not a particularly uncommon or original idea, but I think it'd be interesting if done right. Mystic characters (Dr. Fate, etc.) also obviously present themselves.

6) Lee's daughter or former lover/husband returns. She lost her daughter. How? If there was a daughter, there was presumably a father, either Lee's husband or lover. What if he shows up? Looking for the daughter? Looking for Lee? Ulterior motives, almost certainly. Or, considering the possible Lee/Linda Prisoner thing, is it so unbelievable that Pre-Crisis Supes might have somehow Hypertimed his way into Bete Noire?

6) Cameo crossover event. I remember very well when it started snowing at the end of an Amazing Spider-Man story set in the summer, and there was a little note from the editor: "Why is it snowing? Check out Thor #xxx, on sale now!" Didn't really affect the Spider-Man story, but it got me wondering about Thor, which was a comic I'd never bothered with. If Bete Noire is so important to the world at large, if something were to go really wrong, couldn't it show up in a normal DCU book or five? It wouldn't have to take much time or cost much, but it would maybe give that little "bump" of interest for a few folks...

7) Feature articles/interview on their main page? I mean, we've got "Garney Talks JLA!" on there--why not Fallen Angel?

8) Lee/FA HeroClix in a future DC set. OR as a Wizard mail-away exclusive! (Probably too expensive/complicated to arrange, but hey...)

QUESTIONS/IDEAS:

1) Who owns the rights to Fallen Angel? Could DC conceivably fire you from the book? Could you take it to another publisher? (Oni or Image would be my first thoughts. I'd hate to lose color [Oni], but it'd be worth it for the publisher to give it some respect.)

2) From the above: Could there be a tie-in novel? Again, maybe diversifying the audience...?

3) What are the rules of Bete Noire's interaction with the DCU? How much can you play with that? Could Lee's job take her outside of BN?

I wish that were more helpful (I know I've forgotten several of my questions), and I wish it were more original. I really feel like this is a book where "If they read it, they'll read it some more," but of course, the trick is pulling folks in.

I'm pulling for you. I have a copy of the FA trade at school, where I loan it out (carefully!) to selected students. I had the first 6 issues, but I wanted to support the TPB as well, so I gave those away to some former fans of your Supergirl. (Getting people to stick with comics if they're not fans is VERY difficult!)

I just wish I could do more. Good luck, PAD!

Eric

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

Peter:
1. Bring in a guest star.
Try to have other DCU heroes visit Bette Noire. Hawkman would be a good bet because his St. Roch seems like Bette Noire's sister city to me.
If you can get a Vertigo guest star, then the V-editors can see how well FA can work in their "zone".
2. Have Fallen Angel be the guest star.
Maybe when other heroes need help dealing with something mystical, the Fallen Angel answers the call instead of Doctor Fate, Zatanna, etc. Granted, she would have to be more "PG" than "R" in another title, but I'm sure with you writing she can stay true to herself.
3. A 2 part crossover between FA and another title.
4. Could Vertigo run a house ad in their books for the "orphan" titles that fall between DCU and V like Fallen Angel?
Otherwise, would it be possible to transfer Fallen Angel to the Wildstorm imprint?

BTW, I realize that PAD probably can't or wont comment on this, but can someone else maybe enlighten me? The reason given for Vertigo turning down Fallen Angel seems like crap to me. What would the real reason be? Is PAD not "hot" enough as a writer? Not BRITISH enough, maybe?

Another question: how are FA's numbers compared to the average Vertigo title? Would it be safer from cancellation over there?

Eric

I know other comic book publishers don't usually plug competitor's titles (might be nice if an issue of SPYBOY or SOULSEARCHERS & CO. could mention Fallen Angel), but it's not all that unusual for novelists to have other books of theirs mentioned. Is there a chance Fallen Angel could be listed under "Also by Peter A. David:" in future volumes of STAR TREK: NEW FRONTIER or further Sir Apropos novels?

I'd have a contest were two other creative teams pit their creations against Fallen Angel. Y'know, best selling book sticks around.

I'd give the whole deal some catchy name....like DCU-Decide, but you get the idea.

I can only speak for myself, telling you what I want to see in FA so that I will stay with it.

First of all, I had two reasons to start buying the series: I like Peter David`s work (usually) and being not a fan of the DC universe, I made an exception and actually bought a DC comic. I liked what I saw in the first issue and therefore I was willing to stay and give it a try. I am very glad I did. The longer the series continued, the more intrigued I became. I regret it very much that FA`s future seems to be uncertain and am hoping very much it will survive.

FA will most probably lose me as a reader as soon as it starts to become a part of the DC universe. I have no idea about the Superwoman or Supergirl connection and must admit, I am not interested to find out. I don`t want to see her, Superman or Batman in the mix. But if the majority of fans do, I have to accept that. It just wouldn`t be something I find appealing.

What I am sure of is, making a conscious effort to change the series so that it becomes more appealing to the lowest common denominator (or what is often seen as that) will kill it definitely. Putting more sex appeal, more violence, more swearing in it and write the stories in a more simplistic way would not only put me off. Just look at what happened with Andromeda which is to me the best or better, worst, example in recent SF history. Nothing is more dangerous than underestimating the intelligence of your audience.

On the other hand, I think a touch more mainstream could help FA. What I would like is more humour in FA, something PAD has shown to be really good at. I think it might also help to make the main character a bit more likeable so that it is easier for people to care what happens to her.

Even if FA will eventually become something I am not buying any more, I am hoping the series will continue.

Cheap = low-tech. Get together with the other "orphan" titles' writers and artists, and produce (by yourselves if necessary, although I doubt it will be if you approach the company together) a little sampler - b&w, normal paper, even A5 fanzine style - and have DC insert it into their 20 top selling books, and vertigo into their top 10. Not stapled, just bagged with or added to somehow. Internet is nice and good, but when someone has hard product in their hand they'll read it. All you want is for people to get a taste.

Or, staple some sort of slip into FA (and whatever other 'orphan' titles care to join in), and twist Wizard's (or CBG or whoever) arm into making a contest a-la send the slip to us, get a chance to win... whatever is appropriate: signed FA trade, signed FA issue, an 'orphan book' set signed by creators, etc... the more slips you send, the more chance you have of winning. But you gotta buy the book to get a slip.

Get DC to form a new imprint (with you as EIC?): Orphan Comics :)

A lot of people have suggested guest appearances by other characters, and I have to say No to forced guest appearances. If it works in the story, that's all well in good, but don't do it for sales sake.

I love Fallen Angel, and wish I could do more to help the book. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears!

Hey PAD,

Well, this is probably more than DC are willing to do for brand consistency reasons, but to me, the simplest idea is to spin off a coherent imprint for "square peg" titles like yours (hey, that's not a bad name for it). Other than filing a few trademark papers and getting an hour of a graphic artist's time to make the imprint logo bugs, this is largely a "free" undertaking for DC, and could actually turn a negative--not knowing what to do with you--into a positive--creating a "home" for unconventional titles that don't fit the current slots.

The message boards would light up with the "DC launches imprint just for PAD" press release, and you'd get some interesting buzz. Moreover, the fact that DC created an imprint that has only YOUR title in it is an obvious public vote of confidence (perception is reality), which should get retailers (and possibly readers) to back the title a bit more seriously.

You can keep the buzz going with nothing more than regular press releases about the new imprint courting "niche" creators and book pitches (say, there's another good name for the imprint). Again, you get the viral marketing (read: cheap but effective) advantage of readers trying to guess who is going "join PAD's Fallen Angel title" under the new imprint, which gets you a lot of free mentions within the community.

Best of all, if and when you start doing some major bookstore pushes for Fallen Angel trades (one can hope, anyway), you can market it outside the DC envelope, free of superhero constraints and possibly even co-opting it as a manga-esque noir item, and therefore due some off the better inventory and display treatments that manga books ostensibly get these days.

Just a thought

Jay

"I would think dropping the Mature Readers label would be a start. Heck, if a mini like Identity Crisis doesn't need a Mature Readers label, or a title like Catwoman that showed a villain forcing a guy's eyeball down a woman's throat doesn't need a Mature Readers label, I think Fallen Angel wouldn't need one either."

Yeah, I have to admit, I don't get that either.

I mean, if I bring up stuff like this, people snarkily say I'm talking conspiracy theories. But I'm not, and besides, you brought it up. It's not theory, it's fact: The phrase "blow job" is used in "Fallen Angel," a couple (literally: two that I know of) of retailers complained, and bang, we get slapped with "For Mature Readers," causing us to be racked with Vertigo books but without the Vertigo label. Meantime if there's retailer protests about the books you just mentioned, I'm unaware of them. And I further suspect that if a hundred retailers bitched about it, those books STILL wouldn't be hit with "For Mature Readers."

I just have trouble believing that what we've depicted in "Fallen Angel" is somehow more adult than rape, being burned alive, a gouged eye and ingestion thereof.

PAD

I'm not familiar w/the eyeball story, but the rape scene wasn't explicit. If I were reading that when I was ten, I would've just figured they weren't showing how he was hurting her. On the other hand, if I read "blow job" when I was ten, I would've probably asked my parents what it meant, and that might've been the end of my comics days.

"I'd hate for this to happen, but one thing you might want to consider is changing the content of the book so that it can be read by all age groups. If that happens, it might be allowed into the mainstream DCU."

Except, as noted above, the mainstream DCU features rape, attempted rape, someone being burned alive, mutilation, and molestation. So where is the line drawn? At us, apparently. Why? No clue.

PAD

Changing FA substantially, in terms of character or storytelling, wouldn't work for me as I buy it because of how it is now. The art isn't what I think it could be, but that's subjective.

What some people have suggested seems like a good idea. Baen Books make the first chapter (sometimes a whole novel) available free on their site to entice people into reading a new author or series. Why not talk the dolts at DC into doing the same with FA (and, coincidentally, other titles)?

A couple unpleasant but realistic suggestions:

1. Controversy, controversy, controversy. Whatever doesn't get you cancelled only makes you stronger.

2. Don't get yourself into these situations in the first place (unpromoted titles, especially with unfamiliar/unpopular characters).

3. Stop writing like Peter David. Everytime I pick up one of your books, or read a series of them, I enjoy the plots, the action, the character development/interaction... but I can't get away from the voice of Peter David. The characters are too witty (or at least cleverly facetious), the punchlines seem par, the dialogue snappy and canny. It's like I can't read one PAD book without being reminded of all the other ones I've read. (I miss the early days of the Hulk when it was all fresh, but likewise tragically emotional.)

Just my thoughts. Sorry if I come off as smug or overly acerbic.

Violence has always been a part of mainstream comics. But naughty words are a no-no. I guess parents expect a little comic book violence in comic books, but once kids come to them asking what a blow job is, that's different. Never mind the fact that violence is conceptually worse than language. Still, language has at times been used to manipulate and/or undermine society. It's really strange, though, that parents work so hard to keep bad language (and the occasional left boob) off of TV, but the violence stays.

Botch,

Stop writing like Peter David. Everytime I pick up one of your books, or read a series of them, I enjoy the plots, the action, the character development/interaction... but I can't get away from the voice of Peter David.

I don't know if you've been reading FA or not, but I think I disagree with you in this particular case. I agree that Peter can be prone to what you're saying there, but I've rarely if ever gotten that vibe from Fallen Angel itself. That's probably part of why the book is suffering sales-wise (people aren't getting what they expect from a PAD book), but it's an important part of the atmosphere of the book.

That's probably why I'm having so much trouble coming up with advice here. In terms of storytelling, any changes that'd make the book more marketable would probably also make it less interesting, and that spoils the point.

TWL

[b]Another question: how are FA's numbers compared to the average Vertigo title?[/b]

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=2n9kukFunbtpU1%40uni-berlin.de

You can try writing John Kerry into a story. Worked for this guy:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/artsentertainment/2001995756_comicswatch04.html

Take your toys and go play somewhere else! Unless of course you know... you can't... Hmm... then you could promote it like when someone in the WCW would jump to the WWF...

That ICON thing over at marvel would be a good fit...

A number of suggestions would seem to alter the context of the book in a great deal. I certainly don't want to see DCU guest stars.

I look at the success of Birds of Prey over the last year and I have to think that Ed Benes' provocative art brought readers to the title but it is Gail Simone's writing that keeps people there.

While I think it is pandering to the lowest common denominator, a cheesecake cover artist (as suggested above) would probably bring in new readers some of whom would stick around.

Imagine what a spike there would be in sales if Adam Hughes or Michael Turner did a guest cover. I don't think Lee would ever pose as those guys would draw her.

Again, I like Stelfreeze's covers and wish we wouldn't have to do any of this to keep the title going. I wonder why DC is so damn blase about this title!? It's frustrating.

I wonder why DC is so damn blase about this title!? It's frustrating.

DC and Marvel are blase about most of the titles they launch. See the following link for a good article on the subject:

http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=896

Frankly, PAD, I don't think you should change the nature of the content/material of FA. This seems to be a series that you cherish, and to alter the tone or subject matter would lessen the impact of the book to both you and your readers. Sadly, i've always had the impression that the powers-that-be at DC and "the other company" want to sabatoge your work. What happened with "Supergirl" is a perfect example of this. Who knows why? In a time where continuity is thrown out the window and big creative names who super-implode after a couple of years, you've consistently crafted interesting, engaging, character driven stories that rarely, if ever (to my recollection, anyways), discounted or ignored previous continuity. You respect the intelligence of your readers.

Maybe its professional jealousy of the fact that you are >gasp

I wish I could say "let the stories speak for themselves," but to survive in this marketplace, especially if the powers-that-be are out to get'cha, that can't be the only viable option. Maybe its up to your fans to vociferously spread the word to others. Its the cheapest form of marketing there is, and your fans are loyal enough that they'll do so. But be true to your character and your stories. If you don't like what you're writing, it will eventually show up in the quality of your work. Just my 2 cents. Hope this helps.

Frankly, PAD, I don't think you should change the nature of the content/material of FA. This seems to be a series that you cherish, and to alter the tone or subject matter would lessen the impact of the book to both you and your readers. Sadly, i've always had the impression that the powers-that-be at DC and "the other company" want to sabatoge your work. What happened with "Supergirl" is a perfect example of this. Who knows why? In a time where continuity is thrown out the window and big creative names who super-implode after a couple of years, you've consistently crafted interesting, engaging, character driven stories that rarely, if ever (to my recollection, anyways), discounted or ignored previous continuity. You respect the intelligence of your readers.

Maybe its professional jealousy of the fact that you are (gasp) an honest-to-goodness gifted storyteller interested in delivering quality. But I digress...

I wish I could say "let the stories speak for themselves," but to survive in this marketplace, especially if the powers-that-be are out to get'cha, that can't be the only viable option. Maybe its up to your fans to vociferously spread the word to others. Its the cheapest form of marketing there is, and your fans are loyal enough that they'll do so. But be true to your character and your stories. If you don't like what you're writing, it will eventually show up in the quality of your work. Just my 2 cents. Hope this helps.

Whoops. Sorry about the double post. Don't know how that happened...

Screw'em . I wouldn't change a thing. It's perfect.

My only real suggestion would be trying to publish the book in a different format, possibly doubling the page counts and publishing once every two or three months [in prestige format] as opposed to a monthly. People seem to be fixated on "waiting for the trade" [Which i hate by the way] so this would kind of be a happy medium for those people and might draw in new readers

Another thing i would do which most will probably find "distasteful" would be to flaunt the fact that this is mature readers book and promote it as such. Let it be broadcast and well known. It doesn't have to be "trashy". Look at Supreme Power for an example. Up the maturity a little....you can still keep the class. I think it's fine the way it is personally but, who knows..

Ultimately i think DC just needs to promote it more which it doesn't look like thier going to do. I urge everyone to buy a friend the first trade and maybe two of the following monthlies. People are VERY open minded to free stuff and seeing as how the work speaks for itself , I'm confident that the people that try it will continue to buy it. It's just that FIRST try-out where they need a little push. Help them out...

Have a storyline called Vertigo for about six issues and plaster it all over the cover. Even if they don't want it use their name.

Frankly, I just think the general readership has very narrow tastes. Not an X-title or Bat title? Ain't worth reading.

I look at the struggle of other books like SLEEPER and SHE-HULK, and it's no wonder FALLEN ANGEL has problems.

Hm. Maybe FALLEN ANGEL should join the Wildstorm universe and have a crossover with Carver Holden.

I wouldn't change the content either, but you can disguise it. Two examples:

1. Remember the guy who came to town who wanted to stop Asia's drug trade? This was obviously Batman. But he was disguised as a different character.

So how about a clumsy reporter coming to town. Or an ambassador, a virgin one at that, from another country enrolling a child at Lee's school. Maybe she could be caught up in a dominatrix scene being tied up in a golden lasso. Or an Ollie Queen, who's a umm queen.

2. The french hand gesture. It's basically the American middle finger right? But how many people knew that? I'm sure there are a lot of ways to say "blow job" w/out people going all bonkers about it.

Sincerely PAD, talk w/ DC & your editor (or go above him/her). There is absolutely no reason this title should have a Matures Readers label.

Another example--the Teen Titans title by Geoff Johns. He had a character gouge her own eye out. This is as close to a kids book you can get in the mainstream DCU I would imagine. No one put a label on that.

And it's funny that Geoff Johns can get as dark as he wants in his titles w/out a Mature Readers label. Heck, JSA had an issue where a guy punched a character's heart out--literally.

It seems there's some kind of double standard. There are far more "mature" things happening in other mainstream titles. I'd love to hear how DC execs could justify those over your title.

Peter, Peter, Peter. You gotta rip off the GODZILLA marketing campaign. Or GABO. You know? Complete and utter hype that just leaves the audience completely confused yet intriuged at the same time?

Something along the lines of - "THE ANGEL HAS COME" or "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" or "WATCHING THE FALL OF THE FALLEN ANGEL" etc. etc. Just white letters on black text with a small "Fallen Angel" logo in the corner.

People would go nuts and buy it immediately. Trust me, buddy. Less is more.

I've been thinking about this, and thinking about this.
I've also been re-reading Starman (James Robinson)...
Now Starman was "in" the DC universe... even showcased other DCU-denziens... but it was never really "in" the universe.
Oh the crossovers had an effect... and Batman showed his face once or twice, and so did superman... but it was never about the crossovers. It was about the story. Which was extremely important and why Starman was so popular.
So my concept is this:
Guest stars are okay... but to have a guest star just so you have a guest star is not.
If you do bring in people... bring in those that aren't well known...
or like your Batman guest shot, why name them?
You're on the right line where you are going... but never say never when it comes to guest shots. I mean, Robinson even brought in Space Cabbie! But he was interested in history. Yours is noir... so go with noir. Whatever happend to Dakota North (okay, that was marvel) or Johnni Thunder?
Your supporting cast seems strong... and that can make the whole comic...
Truthfully, I think DC is doing you a disservice. I personally wouldn't change anything about it. But that's me.

Travis

Marketing ideas that don't cost anything and have Fallen Angel retain its feel and identity.

1) Fallen Angel reminds me at times of the Shadow, and the other old style pulps. So radically redesign the cover so it looks like a pulp. Differiante it from the rest of the comics on the stands.

2) Associated with that, since you can't shake the mature readers label, might as well go with it whole hog. As in, make it a cover element that this is a "Book not for the weak of heart and short of spirit!" Perhaps borrow elements from the Eerie books of the 50s?

3) In this era of decompressed storytelling, start telling more all in one issue stories. Not that there can't be continuing storylines, but consistently place them into the B story category. Adjacent to and informing the A story, but not being the A story.

4) Some people said if you aren't Vertigo, may as well be DC Mainstream. In this case, think of the Morrison run on Doom Patrol, which predated Vertigo and was later scooped up by it. Bete Noire and the Fallen Angel are just too strange for the DC mainstream, but every now and then, when something out of the ordinary occurs, then maybe it be seen. For instance, in Morrison's DP, there was only one xover, and that was the JLA calling the DP for a case too strange for them to handle, the painting that ate Paris. So demystify the DC Universe, if you have charcters from the rest of the universe, show them out of costume/uniform so they are grounded, both literally and figuratively.

5) Bete Noire needs a look. Reimagine it as the New Orleans of nightmares, the old town look, looming walls, barely paved meandering streets, peddlers that look slightly out of place, a block of tombs serving as town park, etc. Asia Minor's home has style, redo the city in that image. Make Bete Noire a character in the book as Opal City was in Starman.

6) To steal marketing dollars, do themes related to intracompany events even if Fallen Angel is not participating in them. Identity Crisis is supposedly about identities, why not do a story about Lee being caught being trapped between her day job and being Fallen Angel. What if Asia Minor tries to figure out what she meant when she touched the cross piece? Especially if he fails to learn to anything, something can be revealed about their personalities. War Games over in Batman is about gang war? What gangs exist in Bete Noire, and how do they manage conflict under the watchful gaze of power brokers of the city, including Lee?

You can be part of and not part of a intra company event that way, and perhaps get some writeups that way. As in "War Games part 4-7 are shipping this month, and in Fallen Angel, a War Games inspired story will be shown."

Just some ideas.

As far as I know, the whole reason that no mainstream DCU character will ever appear in Fallen Angel (at least directly, hence the whole, Lee is Linda if and only if you believe it) is because the book is creator-owned, and thus, Mr. David could take it to wherever he could sell it. Assuming this is in fact the case, I think that's part of the problem.

I know the main turn-off for me regarding FA was knowing that it would never truly wrap up Linda's story, since Linda could never officially appear (plus, I fully expect that one day, PAD will be screwed over as far as this goes when Linda shows up again in mainstream DC, some days years down the line). Thus, guest stars and crossovers aren't really an option.

To keep doing the book as-is, I'd say Vertigo or Wildstorm are what to shoot for. (Maybe Vertigo doesn't feel like dealing with another creator-owned property right now?) Maybe you could adjust it so that DC characters can appear? I don't know if this is possible, but it certainly might boost sales. Or, of course, as other have suggested, you could start quietly seeking other publishers. Might Darkhorse be interested in a title like FA?

You'll weather this "storm." Sir Apropos of Nothing worked out for you, so maybe for comics you should also turn your efforts to starting your own new stuff, as opposed to working within someone else's universe.

-Foxtrot258

You could establish an internet message board dedicated to FA where fans can gather to discuss it. I notice the Comic Boards link on your page here takes you to Alvaro's site where they talk about lots of comic books, but not Fallen Angel. Maybe you could ask Alvaro to create a page for it?

Here’s my take:

1. No ½ issues, Zero issues, Wizard issues, Secret Origins or Flip Books. These won’t increase long term sales for two reasons… first, long term buyers will feel they are being taken advantage of, fleeced; and that their support for the book is being rewarded with the opportunity to buy less and pay more. This is the main reason I no longer read Powers, Teen Titans or Astro City. I felt the creators were doing WRONG by asking their loyal fans to spend twice as much for an eight page comic book; or else, risk not getting the full story. The second reason that these types of comics don’t increase long term readership is that, at least for the Wizard stuff, there is a market segment that will ONLY BUY the Wizard stuff, and only the Wizard stuff. That’s were the speculator market from the eighties ended up. And who can blame them, there’s a readily available market for it, and it’s an easy way to make a quick buck. (For those of you who don’t believe me, go to Ebay and check out the Teen Titans. You’ll see that you can get up to $15 DOLLARS for your ½ issue, but you won’t be able to get more than $10 for your entire 12 issue run.

2. I also don’t feel that a free or 12 cent comic book is a good idea for Fallen Angel because it creates an “imaginary demand curve”. That is, just because a person picks up a free Hellboy or Conan, does not mean that they’ll automatically buy every Hellboy or Conan from then on. Let’s face it, different people have different tastes and not everything has universal appeal. When going with the 12 cent book you are banking on the fact that a subsequent increase in readership will upset the production costs of the free book. Because Fallen Angel does not appeal to every reader out there, I recommend other, less riskier and more intelligent approaches.

Here’s my list:

3. Ask potential readers to take a Sunday off, drive to the nearest Borders or Books a Million, sit down, order a cup of coffee, and sample the latest issue of Fallen Angel to see if they like it (off the rack, of course).

4. The Next thing to do is sit down, take a deep breath and write down the top 5 qualities or characteristics that your book has. That will help you determine the books appeal; both in content and demographics.

5. Once you know the book’s content appeal you can look at the wide spectrum of books out there and see which ones would mesh best and allow "like minded fans" to expand their reading habits and cross over from one book to another. Yes, this is the dreaded crossover approach, but done right! You don’t want characters that naturally fit; you want readers that naturally fit. What I’m getting at is this: Just because you can write a story were Batman, or Superman would naturally fit in the world of Fallen Angel; That doesn’t mean that the Batman or Superman readership will “naturally fit” (and like) the world of Fallen Angel. That’s the importance of the appeals list. It will allow you to do a cross over of like minded readers (not characters). Say for instance that after your soul searching you find out that people who enjoy “Y the last man standing” will definitely enjoy Fallen Angel. Well that’s great. It means that you can write a story where a key supporting character escapes the “Y” universe, doesn’t want to go back, and it’s up to Fallen Angel to fix it.

It’s trite, it’s typical, but it targets “like minded readers”. And "like minded" readers are your best source of “long term fans”. Anyways, at the top of my head I see crossovers with Grendel, Hellboy, Lucifer, Books of Magic, Y: Last Man Standing, and Hellraiser.
6. I also see a potential crossover with Swamp Thing or Promethea. Which brings me to the other form of crossover; the creator crossover. Typically, you can have artists do guest spots; but often times you can have two authors work in tandem or switch books for a month. If, for instance, Alan Moore were a fan or friend, you could switch books (Promethea & Fallen Angel) or have a Fallen Angel / Swamp Thing team-up that would feature the first time Alan Moore has written or co-written Swamp Thing in two decades. And well, even though this idea may be very unlikely; the concept behind it is solid. Lets face it, a guest spot by Alex Ross never hurt a book (even if he was only doing covers and –gasp- “co-plotting”).

7. Finally, do lots of sign-ins. For free, but be clear that it is for Fallen Angel books and graphic novels. This will allow you to get to know your “real” Fallen Angel fans. What they like, dislike, is it mostly male, or female? etc. And don’t limit yourself to comic book shops or cons. See if DC is willing to set up a book signing at Borders, Walden Books, Books-a-million or any other place were Fallen Angel is sold to different types of consumers (not just your regular comic book readers). And for heavens sake, if other creators are present make sure the theme of their books falls in line with Fallen Angel (both in terms of content and like minded fan base). Otherwise, why bother to go through all the trouble if some other book is going to steal your thunder.

8. I guess this is it. If nothing else works after this, you can always have Lobo as guest, and afterwards add a Letters page were you continually bad mouth and curse out your fans! That will certainly earn you a “Mature Readers” label! Anyways, I hope this helped. All I can do now is wish you luck, and figure out whom I'm going to bill for this little bit of consulting research I just did. But as long as no one rats me out, I'll be okay.

Peace!

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant of me to suggest, and it may likely put my ignorance on display, but...

Could you use your own funds to buy ad space in Wizard, or elsewhere? If DC won't promote it, why don't you promote it? It is semi-creator owned, yes? I know this sounds extreme and maybe even desperate, but then again, you certainly have a vested interest in this book's success, and if it works, you may likely get your investment back. Perhaps you could even talk DC into matching your funds. (Please know here that I think it's a crappy thing that DC won't promote it). But, I believe this book is worth it. I believe that people will get a satisfying read out of it, as I do. Or perhaps you could fund a decent poster campaign to go into comic shops. I think it would be pretty great to see a creator so into and behind his work that he is willing to go to these lengths to promote his work. But again, bottom line, I think you and Mr. Lopez put out a product that is that good.

One thought is that in the 90's I know many Vertigo books sold a significant percentage of their overall numbers here in the UK, and it was these which allowed them to continue being published. In my experience the contraction of the industry after the mid ninetys does not seem to have hit the UK as hard as it did you - certainly in London there are as many DM stores as ever.

If FA does not already follow the Vertigo sales pattern, its entirely possible it could with a bit of a push here. This push could come either from DC (which would be cheaper than an all out advertising blitz across the states), or with signing tours.

Couple of suggestions.
Pretty simple really,
First the covers, right now they are very pretty, but (and I haven't seen the last 3-4)they need a more central theme that relates to the story. A hook, some dialog. Be different than the other titles.
Second, failing that, I really think there are lots of Fallen Angle type DC 3rd stringers that would work in a book like this. I haven't read the last issue of Azreal, but Jean Paul Valley would fit in very well with your book. He's a minor character nowadays that no one seems to want to play with. He's full of angst, mystery and he fits the Fallen theme of the book.

Convince the idiots at DC to send over some of the next issue to Mile High Comics to be put online and free of charge.

While I applaude MHC for doing this with some stuff from Marvel, it's only the big names so far: Daredevil and such.

Nothing else that might actually spark some interest outside the norm.

Now, the fellows at MHC have said that they tried this once in the past with DC, and DC had a fit when something went wrong.
But, what the hell does DC have to lose at this point?

As a huge fan of FA I think I've decided that when it is cancelled (which seems a diabolical certainty) I think I'll be giving up reading comics. The reason for this isn't just spite: I've had a gut full of semi-literate, derrivative crap which is what passes for a comic industry these days. I mean ideas so fucking tired I only keep reading them out of habit. I don't know the precise date when DC/Marvel sold their creative integrity and creative purpose but when they did, they both commited mutual suicide.