PeterDavid.net

ANGEL:

I thought the episode was stunning.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVED EVERYTHING ABOUT IT... Including how they kept dropping future storylines into the last plot.

But I especially loved the ending. In my mind, it was everything the "Buffy" ending should have been and more.

But I hated to see the show end so much I actually started crying at Angel's last statement. A grown man. Crying over the ending of a Fantasy TV show.

Then the WB "Thank You" came up. And my deep sorrow turned into something that must have been an awful lot like homicidal rage.

But that's OKAY-- Because I've decided I'm not going to watch the WB Network EVER again. Period. And I can say this with certainty because of (2) reasons:

1) I truly believe you can say NEVER AGAIN and mean it

and

2) I know Joss Whedon will never let the WB near one his creations again.

I had the exact same reaction. Loved the Angel finale, as much as one can under protest, but the WB with that lame "Your friends"....UGH!! How infuriating. They are "Wat Bastawds"!!!

Man, They killed my two favorite Angel characters!
Dang!

Man, they killed all of my favorite Angel characters! (Well, except Lorne).

:(

I relaly wanted to see angel fight that dragon Remember, the Blood of the Senior Partners flowing through him, so he probabaly could do it easilly.

I am torn by the ending of Angel. I agree in concept that it fits to not be all tidy, but hate it in practice. Even though Buffy was contrived, I found myself moved more for some reason. The scene with Wesley was the only one that came close.

Smallville came out of nowhere. I did not guess that she was not from Krypton, but as PAD said, I knew she was not the Kara who could ever be supergirl. So no real shock there. The ending however was something else. I bought all of it except Clark saying the frienship with Lex is over. It was just too sudden for Mr. Boyscout to do so even if he did find the shrine in Lex's mansion.

I know PAD does not comment on Enterprise, but I will. I actually found tonight's episode almost more moving and fulfilling than either angel or smallville. I hated the cliffhanger ending, but was strangely more engaged in the episode.

Last thought: I loved Conner again in this episode. His line about Angel not dropping by for coffee unless the world was going to end was great.

Jim

With you on all counts on Angel, PAD. *Loved* that ending, although I am sad that Whedon and company decided to off Wes (who had gone from annoying plot device to one of my favorite characters over the course of five seasons) and Fred (yeah, still stinging over that one).

But Angel has always been about a more ambiguous fight than Buffy. When Buffy was wallowing in darkness, it was an angsty, hard-to-relate to and completely annoying darkness. Angel went into those dark places in a much more interesting and wrenching way, so it's fitting that the ending would maintain that sort of "doomed fight" mentality in the ending, while also having something of an uplifting message about the nature of heroism, to never give up, not even when things seemed hopeless.

And yeah, I was actually yelling at my TV when that stupid WB "farewell" came on. Good thing my daughter was asleep, I don't want her learning any of those choice words from me.

Honestly, given that I thought Buffy's sixth and seventh season had far more stinkers than good episodes, I'm tempted to say that for me, that show ended with Buffy dead at the end of season five, having saved the world. And with Angel, I was thinking that this cancellation might be a blessing in disguise, that five seasons was about right and the creators and characters would be going out strong.

But now I'm more pissed than ever, because I think these guys had at *least* one more great season in them. It's a great ending, but we should have gotten it a season or two later, after more of the quality that we had for most of this year.

Brilliant ending for Angel. The only thing that threw me was that Joss had said about a cliffhanger ending that, and I quote: "he wouldn't do that". And this felt too close for that. If he hadn't said that, I wouldn't have been hit this hard.

Otherwise it was excellent. I feel it beat Chosen on several levels. Spike citing his old 'Effulgent' poem in a bar of bikers who actually love it, is already one of the classic moments of TV history for me. More than just him revisiting his old nerdy sensitive self, the side of him he fought so hard to suppress, the beauty lay in how he found an appreciating audience that was as far removed from the old aristocracy as he himself had tried to become. Beautiful.

And Wesley! I too did NOT see that one coming! Poor poor Wes. And guess what, he's NOT reunited with Fred in death because Fred's soul did not move on to some afterlife, it was CONSUMED! Fred is gone, even on a metaphysical level, remember? Saddest death in the entire Whedonverse. Loved how Illyria grieved though.

Connor helping out Angel, poor Lindsey dying the death of a sidenote and knowing it, the Butch and Sundance ending....powerful stuff. I can't believe how much they managed to put in those 40 minutes.

Btw if there is nothing new of the Whedonverse ever, do we assume they all went down in a blaze of glory? Gunn was pretty much a goner, but Angel, Spike and Illyria were still quite capable of kicking a lot of asses.

Ah can't believe it's over. And with Buffy and Firefly gone, Gilmore Girls little more than a cute diversion, Charmed complete crap, Smallville a snoozefest and Tru Calling all but unwatchable......what else is there in this reality crap-ridden wasteland of a TV era???

ANGEL:This was such an awesome finale. Really, really, really cool. Normal adjectives do not do it justice. So many moments to remember forever in one hour, less commercials.Everything from the great action scenes, to the "do what you want todat because tonight we're probably all going to die" scenes. Spike reading poetry - and getting cheered! - was both a nod to his pathetic past as William The Bloody (so named because his poetry was so bloody awful) and a vindication of his evolution. Lindsay being killed by Lorne? Major surprise, seeing as how, unlike many here, I really don't care for the character. harmony's betrayal was a minor surprise. Illyria's lines were priceless, "I will make trophies of their spines!" Is Amy Acker a great actress or what?
And WESLEY died? The only reason I even thought it was possibility was because it WAS so unlikely, and Joss loves to trip us up. His early sppech about there's "nothing I want" and did not want to be comforted by "a lie", only to yearn for "the lie" on the doorstep of death - I had tears in my eyes! And I hardly ever cry!
Gunn's scene shoed that even the "little people" without powers battle against evil and hopelessness every day. And that ending! Kind of jarred me at first, but in retrospect it was perfect! The battle never ends, and how our heroes' fate turns out depends largely on how optimistic you want to be.
As for the WB "message" at the end, this is where I would usually disagree with PAD. I would say that the WB gave the show life, aired the show for 100 episodes, and let it push boundaries the bigger networks would have been determined to rein in. Plus, "Angel" never exactly got the ratings of "Seinfeld".
All of that is true.
However...That's just it. NO WB show has incredibly high ratings.Not even "Smallville". The fact that they have so few affiliates makes that an impossibility. I could see if it was on NBC and was 100th in the ratings on Thursday nights. But this is The WB we're talking about! And they decide to cancel a show with millions of loyal fans!!! And ignore the petition drive by those same fans that got national attention!!! And deny Joss and the marvelous actors he assembled the chance to continue to strut their stuff!! And deny us a chance to see planned stories that will never be told! Priceless Moments that we'll never see!!! And add insult to injury by putting ANOTHER VAMPIRE SHOW - a lame Dark Shadows update - on the schedule!! And they want to say they're OUR FRIENDS!!!? I have only three words:
SCRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWW YOU WB!

Actually, the Dark Shadows remake is not on the WB fall schedule, not even as a mid season replacement.

Which is a shame because the actor who played Drogan the Truthsayer would have had the role of Barnabas.

Oh, the irony.

Angel: Yeah, I liked the ending to that one... and seemed fitting for the show.

I was just as shocked as everyone else that Wes died. I didn't know who it would be, but I thought for sure it wouldn't be him. I liked Illyeria's reaction... and her good luck wish to Gunn before the battle, though that seemed to come out of nowhere.

Smallville: I so did not see that ending coming. I figured the girl wasn't really Kara, but the very ending with Lex and Chloe cought me off guard, especially Chloe... and I expect next season to be a big change as Kal is reborn.

ANGEL-- I seem to be one of the few who expected it to be Wes who would die. He was a great character but since Fred's death it seemed like he was just walking through life waiting for his own end. yeah, Peter's right, his journey is the single most tragic arc in the whole 'verse.

Lorne's cold blooded murder of Lindsey almost knocked me out of the chair. Both characters reacted exactly as they should. great writing.

Between SMALLVILLE and ANGEL...anyone want to argue that THE GODFATHER, specifically the ending of it, is the most influential movie of the last few decades?

"Your friends at the WB..." Oh man, you little f***ers. With friends like that...You just know that some suit at the marketing department must have thought "Gee, the fans seem upset. Let's placate them with a big kiss and some string music." Jesus! And another new catch phrase is born! From now on, when something really really bad happens, like, say, I get run over by a paint truck, when my wife cradles my dying body in arms, I'll try to make the last words that escape from my bloody lips "And that's a big THANK YOU from your friends at the WB."

Dickweeds.

Dang, I guess I was the only person who guessed that Wes was on the Hit List. By this point in time I figured it was a mercy killing...
Anyway, I guess now the only thing I can hope for is that the Firefly movie will get off the ground in one piece.

You just beet me to the punch with the Godfather comparison - especially the Lorne hit on Lindsay, which was so cold and exhilarating at the same time, and Lindsay's reaction was absolutely priceless, somebody who thought he was so integral to the whole thing to be shot by a "lackey". That and the Butch Cassiday ending were the highlights not just of the show but of the season for me. My wife, on the other hand, now feels that she has just wasted five years or so that she invested in the show - I tried to persuade her with some of the same comments and observations that people have posted here (neverending battle and all) to no avail - personally I love endings that let you finish the story in your head. Only caught a few minutes of Smallville until business called me away (a very minor motion picture probably not coming your way very soon), but this show loses me every week when Chloe calls her high ranking person at the (fill in the blank)- she's a reoporter for a high school newspaper, not the Washington Post, fer cryin out loud-that plot device always destroys my willing suspension of disbelief. Enterprise rocked as well-just wondering if PAD watches and doesn't comment because of his connection to the ST universe?

The end of "Angel?" Good! Another damn vampire show bites the dust. Now if I can only find a way to drive White Wolf Games bankrupt, and force Anne Rice to apologize on television for her crimes against humanity...

(breathing heavily to regain control) The "Smallville" was indeed a great surprise. That tentative edging apart of Clark and Lex looks like it finally reached a tipping point. There will be attempts for them to get together at the start of the next season, of course, but they'll fail.

There was also another tipping point. Whether that entity that took Clark is really Jor-El or not, that powerful being murdered at least two relative innocents (the two guys in cars) and turned that poor girl into a zombie which he quickly incinerated when she couldn't keep up the illusion. That is a WHOLE LOTTA killing gone unpunished for one show.

I don't think it's Jor-El, but I also don't know to what extent they're willing to mess with the "official" history of Superman. Adding a dysfunctional Kryptonian family might do it. (We didn't see Jor-el standing by Lara when she was loading him in that rocket, did we? Kinda suspicious...)

There was one funny moment. As the unnamed prisoner barber finished shaving Lionel Luthor's head, in that agonizing "Godfather" slow motion, I couldn't help but imagine Lionel saying, "Nice job. Same time, next week?"

Smallville: Glad that the Kara on this show wasn't the real one. Figured it wouldn't be with the death at the beginning. The actress just didn't fit the Supergirl look. Something about her face. OH well.
Hopefully the rebirth will give Clark some personality and brains. Not to mention make him more likable. Either that or get someone else to write his parts in the show as the current ones seem to just make him more dislikable each episode.

My husband has this thing that maybe Lionel is going to switch bodies with Lex. He figures that is the only way that Lex will reach the Magnificent B.... levels that Lionel has and Lex in the comics is that would make sense. He finds Lex to easy to sympathize with now. I sort of agree. It would be hard to get me to dislike Lex on Smallville right now.

Angel: Loved it. Seemed a tad rushed on the switching from person to person's last day to live. Great that they brought Connor back to help the dad. Though i did think the way that Brian Thompson got killed so easily by a hit by Angel. Yeah, i know he was revved up on the blood, but i think it would make more sense to just keep draining the man of blood in some fashion. Glad they got rid of Thorne as they did. Waste of space though my husband likes him. I always thought they could spin out a whole new series just with Illyeria and Wes. Definitely won't happen now. Glad Illyeria took care of the killer of Wes. Classic. Beat the heck out of the last season of Buffy in so many ways.

I liked the the Angel ending, even though the knowledge that the series was truncated lead to a sense that it was a bit rushed.
But to state the obvious; I thought it was SO COOL that it ended in the "Angel Alley".

Angel got a good ending. The optimist in me kept watching after the last shot, hoping unconciously for a "next time on..." of some sort -- I don't know what I was hoping for, but you have to hope, right? If I hadn't been an optimist in that regard, I wouldn't have seen the WB "thanking" me. I'm converting to cynicism immediately.

The episode was great, though. I didn't guess it was going to be Wesley that died -- why bother? Aside from Spike, you could have made a case that any of the characters would have died, especially after we saw Illyria get her ass handed to her last week -- but it didn't surprise me.

Why Spike? Angel signed the Shonshu over to him by relinquishing it for himself, meaning Angel is now expendable. I would have though Angel would be the more jarring choice -- especially with all the flinders of wood being created by his fight. I found Wes's death to be tragic, but not surprising. A bit anticlimactic, considering everything he has survived in his life, which only lends to the tragedy.

Gonna miss the show.

I have to say that I hated the whole Angel ending. I'm not a writer, just a fan, but the whole "circle" storyline seemed really forced and had no impact on me. It came out of the blue. I thought it was very tragic that Angel killed someone to "prove" he was evil. I thought it was horrible that Angel asked Lorne to kill a human. The only character I would have liked to see have his own show was Wesley, just because he was such an interesting person, now that is gone. The ending for me was predictable, I knew looking at the time that the WB and Wheadon had decided to go with a "cliffhanger". Unanswered questions are fine in life because its real and cannot be helped, but on my TV shows I like my questions answered. For me this ending was on a par with the finale for Quantum Leap and She Wolf of London.

Agree with you on pretty much everything, PAD.

When Chloe died, I first yelled "AT LAST! I'VE BEEN WAITING YEARS FOR THIS!" Then said, "Jesus, I need a cigarette."

But I knew Wesley would die and so wasn't surprised. Why did I know he'd die? Because in the network ads for this week's episode, they showed a shot of four figures in the rain, a very typical penultimate scene shot. Those four figures? Angel, Spike, Illyria, and Gunn. And since the network told us that one of the characters was going to die--and why tell us that at all? Wouldn't it have been more shocking for Wes' death to *really* come out of nowhere?--well, it had to be him.

Poor Lorne. Helluva last mission to give him.

I want to see a Harmony sitcom now.

I'm surprised Lana's plane wasn't hijacked

I had the same thought. Actually, I expected we'd see the plane exploding/going down, but then I realized that was how last season ended...

Angel: Great fantastic episode. They went out fighting. Predicted the Wesley death, but had also predicted Fred would come back in the end (thinking they would kill Wes to prevent any ending happiness). Enjoyed the banter between Hamilton and Angel, "Did that hurt any?" "Little bit." TV Guide has Whedon mentioning the possibility of direct to DVD movies on different aspects of the Whedonverse. Hope that happens. We'll see how the Firefly movie does.

Smallville: Now that was a cliffhanger. Makes me wonder if there's going to be a cast next year, or just Ma Kent.

Eric

When I head that there'd be a death in the finale, I knew it would be Wesley, as that's the character whose death the most people would feel. After all, they couldn't kill Angel, and while killing Spike in both the Buffy finale and the Angel finale would be hilarious, it didn't seem likely. Then in the episode when he said he didn't plan on dying, that was the final nail in the coffin. Wesley was one of my favorite characters in the series, from worthless Watcher to Rogue Demon Hunter to the bad, bad man he was at the end. Wesley rocked.

The Angel series started in an alley (more or less), with Angel dusting two vamps. So many of the scenes in the series have been in alleys. Buffy meets Angel in a dark alley. Season 5 of Angel starts with Angel fighting in an alley, but he hadn't returned since then. In a very real way, the Buffyverse started in an alley as Joss's idea of a blonde being attacked in an alley an kicking the monster's butt. It was only fitting that it end in an alleyway. It was probably even the alleyway where Connor was born.

I loved this ending. It reminded me of the classic Marvel ending "Never the end." I have no doubt Joss would have ended the season just this way even if the series had been renewed. Fighting the good fight. They were down, not still kicking. Loved that ending. My only gripe with the episode was from his departure in season 2, I really thought Lindsey was striving for redemption. I didn't care for Lindsey's characterization in season 5, and I thought the season's pacing was horrible. Still, the finale, beautiful.

How did I know Wesley was going to die? When he said "I have no intention of dying tonight."

If that's not Joss, nothing is.

"I've run my video of the episode back and forth about six times and I still can't tell for sure if Chloe actually went into the house"

I can't tell either. It does look like she's inside, as you can see the back of her head through the glass. That said it could also be a reflection of her standing at the edge of the porch. Which means next season we'll probably get one of those classic "Saturday matinee cliffhangers" where they show us the one vital shot of her escaping that they didn't show this time!

Not having a WB affiliate, I'm a season behind everyone. I have to rely on TNT's reruns that are cut up for extra commercials. Bah.

Sucks that they killed Wes, he went from one of my most hated to my most liked character on the show.

And in a totally unrelated topic, have you had the opportunity to listen to the Bill Hicks and Voltaire CD's I gave you at the Motor City Con? Just wondering what your opinion was of them.

SMALLVILLE:Missed some of the beginning but i caught the oh so good conclusion.Chloe go boom,
Jonathan dead or incapcitated,Lionel in prison,
Lex poisoned,and Clark elsewhere(krypton,phantom
zone).Very good ending .What was the symbol in the grass at the Kent farm?I couldnt make it out.
For some people who dont understand Jor El and his behavior,i only can go with this.The John Byrne miniseries kind of established the Kryptonians as a Cold blooded,logic oriented and in some cases almost Nietzchean race.His behavior is either a reflection of this or like others suggested this is someone else claiming to be Jorel(General Zod?)
ANGEL:Ah yes the episode i was dreading and waiting for all at the same time.Enjoyed the last day scenario which was sad in a way, made me wonder what i would do my last day if it was me.
Spike and the poetry reading was classic,and thanks to the writers for maintaining story continuity by remembering his background as a poet.
I liked the open (closed )ending.It wrapped up some storylines and left many open to be picked up later or questioned endlessly by us (the fans).
Is Angel basically out of the question at being human again and does he really want it anyway?He mentioned the things about being human he had forgotten and besides Spike always seemed a bit more comfortable with the world of flesh and blood in his own way.Conner being alive and aware gives us hope for the future and please tell he stakes Harmony :)
The final battles were great,Angel using deception to defeat the one Demon"I spiked his drink",Illyria walking away from a demolished blood soaked scene ,and Gunn staking vamp ass.
The Wes and Lorne sequences so sad,so sad.I feel bad for the Green man ,its not in his heart to be killer and he knows it .Though i did enjoy how Lindsey felt cheated that he went down at the hand of a mere lackey.
Wes 'final scene was so heartbreaking ,i admit i began enjoying Wes since the Lilah episodes and hoped he would get some happiness,but it was not to be.Fred holding him and saying they would be together made me cry like a girl:(
Did find Illyria commenting to Gunn he was not entirely unpleasant to look at interesting.It makes me wonder if we dont have an Alec Holland situation there.Holland was the Swamp thing or at least until Alan Moore came along.He wasnt Holland he was a plant who thought he was Holland .So in Illyria we have an ancient god who absorbed Fred Burkle and her memories.So even though her soul was destroyed,Freds'memories and personality traits may have been assimilated by Illyria producing some unique feelings and reactions from her.For the record i am completely in love with Amy acker now ,she is so good in this part.:)
Final scene was awesome,Gunn bloody and still willing to fight,Angel jacked up on Hamilton
blood,Illyria looking to vent her anger and heartbreak on someone,Spike just waiting to wreak havoc while the demon hordes are charging ,classic.
By the way Eve seemed rather frail and helpless in the end didnt she?Guess Lornes'prediction for her was about right.
Finally the series began in an Alley and ends in alley ,full circle. Not as irate about the Wb comments as i am about the loss of this show and looking at the fall lineups,the state of TV in general

I thought both shows were very good and agree that "Angel" easily had at least one more season of material left.

I also happened to like the ending. First, as has been pointed out before, whether they win or lose isn't as important as the fact that Angel, Spike, Gunn and Illyria are fighting the good fight against evil. Second, since we don't know the end result, if there ever is a movie or new show a few years down the road, any or all of those characters could potentially be in it.

I'm also reminded of a comment JMS made (paraphrased from memory, and somewhat tongue in cheek, as I recall) about the ending of one season or another of "Babylon 5" having so many cliffhangers and such that if the show wasn't renewed the fans would rise up as one and storm the gates of the studio in protest, giving him a sort of revenge. I can't help but wonder if Joss Whedon didn't decide on the uncertain ending of "Angel" in the hopes that the fans would be pissed off at the WB for putting him in the situation where he'd have to end the show before he wanted to.

Then again, there's the "Blake's 7" factor. The last episode of that series, which people talked about for years afterward, had all the other rebels shot (and apparently killed), with Avon left standing alone, surrounded by armed Federation troops. Standing over Blake's body, Avon raises his gun, as the troops raise theirs (all in slow motion); he smiles... The screen goes blank as we hear an exchange of shots. End of series.

Did Avon survive? Did anyone else? For years no one knew. Now, with Paul Darrow having gotten permisson from the estate of Terry Nation to revive Blake's 7 with himself playing Avon again (recently released (or escaped) from prison) there appears to be an official answer (assuming his new program actually gets made). Perhaps Joss Whedon is hoping the "what happened next?" factor will keep fans talking about "Angel" for years, and thus keep it in their collective consciousness. Maybe there will be a movie or a new series one day. Maybe not. But either way, "Angel" isn't likely to be forgotten anytime soon.

One question, however, did Angel actually give up his Shansu potential? When he signed the document, it was just a scribble, not his actual signature. He then put the pen down. Yet, in a later scene I saw what looked like his name on the document. So did he bluff the circle and just make a meaningless scribble, or did he pick up the pen again and complete his signature?

I also have to wonder what the reaction will be from the Scoobies when they learn what has happened. Will they feel any degree of guilt over not helping Angel earlier in the year after learning that he and the rest of his team were still the good guys all along?

I also have to chuckle a bit at that last paragraph, since the Scoobies, as fictional characters, won't have ANY reaction until someone actually writes said reactions. But they've all been such well written characters that we tend to forget that sometimes.

As to "Smallville." I loved the multiple cliffhanger ending. Clark, Lex, Jonathan, and Chloe all down, status unkown. We know , of course that Clark will live, as will Lex (or at least his body if you believe the 'Lionel will switch bodies' theories, which I personally hope doesn't happen). Jonathan and Chloe are the big question marks. Up until the Byrne revamp, he always died during Clark's formative years, so there's no guarantee he has future. As to Chloe, a character never seen before, she either survives and assumes the name of her cousin, Lois Lane; or Lois, for whatever reason, is inspired to pick up where Chloe left off.

I thought Clark's comment to Lex about their friendship being over was perfectly natural given the circumstances, and the anger that he felt. It doesn't mean that it actually is over, just that he's angry.

And I still love the irony that so much of the existing (and future) Clark/Lex conflict could have been avoided if Clark had simply confided in Lex. Then Lex would have no reason to try to solve the mystery about his "good luck" since the accident on the bridge.

There's a lot about "Smallville" that I find subpar, but as I've said before, the Lex Luthor thread is what keeps my interest. Ironically, the same was true with the old Superboy TV series of the late 80s. If Lex Luthor (Sherman Howard) was in it, I'd watch; if not, I turned off the set.

Rick

Agree with most of the comments re:Angel, the WB and Smallville.

My two cents...

Smallville: Not the worst ending, I predicted when 'Kara' destroyed the FBI guy and his car that she was 'the Eradicator' or something, some sort of Krypto-device given human form by Jor-El. Looks like I was close. As for Chloe and her never-ending supply of contacts and favors... I think she probably sleeps around. I said this jokingly during the show, but upon more consideration of her character, and her interactions with others, it makes a weird sort of sense. She's secretly banging all these random contacts every so often to keep them helpful just so she can be Nancy Drew. Admittedly a disturbing thought, but tell me it wouldn't fit her. And does anyone else think Lex is gonna help her go into hiding and she'll re-appear as her psuedonym 'Lois'?

Angel: Rocked. Simply awesome. Angel's finale vs. Buffy's, no contest. Wes dying sucked but felt right, definitely the most tragic character in the Buffyverse. The only thing that would have made it better is a ring-side seat at the Alley Brawl. Anyone else notice the 20-30 ft. giant behind the troops and the wall crawling creeps just before the camera panned up on the dragon?

WB: Screw you guys, I'm going home. (Lucky I like Smallville enough to come back for it... )

-Dire

I am also uncomfortable with Lorne (who is not a killer) killing Lindsay (who is not truly evil). Other than that--a masterpiece. What a way to go out, with one of the most definitive statements on heroism and belief that I've ever seen.

The WB are filthy people we shall speak of them no more

Smallville: Keeping in mind that this is NOT Jor-El, but rather some sort of extropian brain-recording or something (as per Kara's statements), then that makes Jor-El the Eradicator. A program designed to make sure Jor-El has some say in how his son is raised...but that went off the rails at some point and made decisions that the real Jor-El would never have made (if only because he'd take things like teenage rebellion into account).

Creepy possibility for Chloe surviving: The Eradicator grabbed her out of the explosion just as he grabbed "Kara" from her car wreck. And he makes her over into a pseudo-Kryptonian as well, on the grounds that maybe Clark would be more willing to propagate his species with a familiar female.

I LOVED LOVED LOVED Angel's series finale. If anyone remember Blake Seven (British SciFi) the series ended similar. I loved the fact that the show faded to black and all you can hear is the fighting of the fang gang. I really am going to miss the Whendonverse, but hey he is working on one of the Xmen titles so I still have that outlet.

I have to admit that the Wesley IIlyria scene tugged on my heart strings, and the slow motion morph and head punch really was worth the price of admission.

Anyway I think that the show was fantastic and I can't wait for the DVD to ship so I can watch the series finale over and over again.

Regards:
WSJ3

ANGEL:
Some great lines and scenes, but clearly rushed. My bet is that, if the show had not been cancelled, this season would have ended with Angel joining the Black Thorns, and the events of the finale taking up a good portion of the next season.

I knew Wesley and Gunn were goners. It's ironic that Whedon's view of the Buffyverse--"No normal people need apply"--came out of the mouth of a villain in the final episode.

As an interesting contrast to the usual comment, I disliked the _lack_ of ambiguity in the ending. Based on what we saw, it's pretty obvious what happens next--the crew goes down fighting and evil wins.

My perfect ending would have been a bit more ambiguous--as Angel & co ready themselves for combat, the camera pans back to show an army of slayers coming (Faith and Xander in the front, Buffy and Andrew nowhere to be seen), Willow crackling with power, Cordy leading a heavenly host (allowed to manifest now that a demonic horde has been loosed) and the like.

Having it end with a battle and not knowing if they will survive is one thing; having it end with a decidedly lopsided battle where survival requires an unseen deus ex machina is less satisfying.

I enjoyed both episodes, and I wasn't personally offended by the WB "so long, and thanks for all the fish" message at the end of Angel. Angel was a great series, but its time at the WB was over. It's unfortunate, but television isn't really about ratings, anymore; it's about demographics. Angel could have pulled down the best ratings in history, and it still would have been canned if it didn't deliver the right demographic. The WB, since very early on, has been able to promise the teen girl audience to its advertisers. Angel started out giving the WB this audience, but as the cast grew older and the themes and plots became deeper, it slowly lost it. Let's face it, it's been a few years since anyone on that cast was on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine. When Smallville's cast passes their teen idol stage, it can expect the same thing. There are things that the Angel crew could have done to make the show more attractive to the WB's target demographic, but it probably would have ruined the show for the rest of us. In the end, the WB execs did what was best for the station (and rightly so, as much as it pains me to admit it; it's what they were hired to do), and the Angel cast and crew did what was best for the show's fans. At least the WB gave both of their Whedon shows a fair shake, which is a Hell of a lot more than Fox ever did. As I understand it, there's no bad blood between Whedon and the WB (although I could be mistaken), and so I don't think that their send-off was at all inappropriate. It might have stung, since we were losing one of the best shows on television, but I recall being angry at the hug my mother tried to give me when my parents (out of necessity) had my cat put to sleep.

As I understand it, there's no bad blood between Whedon and the WB (although I could be mistaken)

The latest Entertainment Weekly has an interview with Joss, and Joss is much harsher in talking about Fox TV than he is WB. He says that Angel was cancelled because The WB said they "need more reality [TV]." He sounded upset, but his comments seemed much angrier when talking about Fox ("They're a bad network that makes bad decisions," etc.). Joss is probably more likely to do another show for the WB than he is FOX.

Corey

I see some others had the idea I just came up with independently right before coming here: The Eradicator makes perfect sense.

I adored the finales of both shows, both of which were intense and left me wanting more. Shame we'll only GET more of SMALLVILLE, though.

I'm still shaken by the ANGEL finale, which had me in tears more than once. And I must be the only one that didn't get mad at the WB's "tribute" at the end -- I thought it a nice touch, if yes, hypocritical. Was also glad they let us hear the "Grr Aargh" for the last time, rather than superimposing a lame promo for CHARMED over it.

I will not join the chorus of those claiming they'll boycott the WB, though. They still have SMALLVILLE and I'm interested in the new JACK & BOBBY from novelist/comics scribe Brad Meltzer and the mid-season GLOBAL FREQUENCY based on Warren Ellis's comics. Still, they obviously made the wrong decision, and I don't think the comedy block they're planning for ANGEL's timeslot next season is gonna fly; at least, not in that timeslot.

Corey Tacker posted:

The latest Entertainment Weekly has an interview with Joss, and Joss is much harsher in talking about Fox TV than he is WB. He says that Angel was cancelled because The WB said they "need more reality [TV]." He sounded upset, but his comments seemed much angrier when talking about Fox ("They're a bad network that makes bad decisions," etc.). Joss is probably more likely to do another show for the WB than he is FOX.

Except that Joss is still under contract to Fox Productions, which means that the Fox Network (who, it's important to point out, are who he has the problem with; his relationship with Fox Productioons is still good) will likely get the first shot at anything new he does. But after they stupidly pass, he'll be able to sell his wares elsewhere.

Greg I disagree with you that Lindsey wasn't evil. He wasn't on a par with the movers and shakers of the world, but he was still willing to do dispicable things for the sole purpose of getting his selfish revenge on Angel. He was evil with a little "e", but he was still evil.

Whelp posted:

It's unfortunate, but television isn't really about ratings, anymore; it's about demographics. Angel could have pulled down the best ratings in history, and it still would have been canned if it didn't deliver the right demographic. The WB, since very early on, has been able to promise the teen girl audience to its advertisers. Angel started out giving the WB this audience, but as the cast grew older and the themes and plots became deeper, it slowly lost it. Let's face it, it's been a few years since anyone on that cast was on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine. When Smallville's cast passes their teen idol stage, it can expect the same thing.

Well, it may be partly that, but not entirely.

It's more to do with aftermarket rights. WB owns SMALLVILLE and thus makes money on DVD, syndication, merchandising, etc.

Fox owns ANGEL and thus WB doesn't make anything on the aftermarket and merchandising.

So despite ANGEL getting better ratings than, say, CHARMED (which WB owns), it makes less money for WB. So it makes economic sense to keep the lesser-rated show alive and kill the more popular show.

With media consolidation, you're only going to see more and more of this. All the networks now have production arms, since NBC bought Universal. It won't be long before each network is airing almost exclusively its own productions (Disney/Touchstone on ABC, Viacom/Paramount on CBS and UPN, Fox on Fox, WB on WB, and Universal on NBC).

Isn't media consolidation great? Who says the free market was a good thing?

(Yes, that's sarcasm, kids)

As an interesting contrast to the usual comment, I disliked the _lack_ of ambiguity in the ending. Based on what we saw, it's pretty obvious what happens next--the crew goes down fighting and evil wins.
****************************************

The whole point of the episode I thought was that Angel and the gagn were going down fighting. They weren't going to win. They would pay the ultimate price for taking down the Circle and putting a major crimp in evil's plan. They would be made a lesson of but yet they would be an example of the shining moment when good overcame evil.

Heck, Spike, Angel, and Illyria (demons all) fighting the good fight at the end is a smack in the face of the bad guys, as well.

The good guys showing up giving hope of a victory would dilute the ending and the whole theme of the series. There is no big win.

Note, that W&H could have let loose the hordes at any moment. Why didn't they? Doing this implies desperation, a loss on their part. Think about what Holland Manners said in "Reprise." This counteracts all of that. The bad guys failed. They failed to turn Angel (their major goal for the most of the series) and now must resort to this show of strength.

And I like that the last stand was at the Hyperion.

I loved Smallville, and I think Terence Stamp is really playing Gen. Zod. How sweet is that, pulling on over on the fanboys by hiding him in plain sight?

The most disturbing thing for me was that awful Catwoman trailer!?!?!

HOLY COW does that look like crap on a stick or what?!!?!?!

-JS

Greg I disagree with you that Lindsey wasn't evil. He wasn't on a par with the movers and shakers of the world, but he was still willing to do dispicable things for the sole purpose of getting his selfish revenge on Angel. He was evil with a little "e", but he was still evil.

He is only quasi-evil. The Diet Coke of evil.

Speaking of Scott Evil, when the hell did Seth Green become part of the gang on That 70's Show? I know he's shown up in a couple of episodes before this season, but suddenly he's hanging out in the Forman's basement oggling Donna! What's up with that?

One point on each show:

SMALLVILLE -- If you're going into the Witness Relocation Program, it would be better not to be dropped off by vans with the words "U. S. Government" on them, wouldn't it?

ANGEL -- Fred and Wes have now watched each other die, at different times.

So is it ok to start complaning (or praising, depending your preference) about the renewal of Enterprise for a 4th season? :)

Yes yes YES!

I made a comment about ANGEL ending like BLAKE'S SEVEN the second Gunn showed up all battered and the hordes started swarming around them.

I loved the ending.

SMALLVILLE

My quibbles: I think this episode featured some false conflict. For one, a judge wouldn't need Clark's testimony to deny bail to a terminally ill billionaire (who would have every reason to skip town and die peacefully in some beach resort rather than risking a trial and dying in prison). Remember that Lex had Lionel's medical records (his attorney released them). That's all the DA would have needed to convince a job to remand Lionel (I've watched too much Law & Order, I think).

Also, Lionel Luthor was allowed to send Clark a package? C'mon. Even if I hand-wave that, who allows a witness to speak to the person he's testifying against? It's clear witness tampering and intimidation. And while Clark acknowledges that he can't trust Lionel and won't "walk into a trap," he does just that later. Why? (I would have placed his breaking into the pathetically unguarded Luthor house *after* his seeing Lex and Lana together.)

The Angel ending relfects Joss' deisre not to wrap things up in a bow when TV shows end. Yes, it's true we want to see that happy ending, but Joss and PAD are on the same page about how life just isn't like that. I think Joss tried the same approach on Buffy, but was at cross-purposes in trying to give her a happier ending in keeping with that show's relative lightness. It works betrer in Angel's gray world.

I keep thinking that Joss would be better off trying to get his shows on HBO. That network seems to be willing to push the envelope as far as it will ever go - don't have cable, but certainly The Sopranos sounds like that kind of show. HBO would give Joss the freedom and the time that he cannot get on a free network. Alas, even HBO steers away from SF and treats fantasy with some trepidation. To some degree, the biggest obstacle Joss faces is simply that he has no interest in anything but SF/fantasy. It's why we love him, but why he will never get the kind of acclaim that Sorkin or Bochco get.

Whelp stated:

"The WB, since very early on, has been able to promise the teen girl audience to its advertisers. Angel started out giving the WB this audience, but as the cast grew older and the themes and plots became deeper, it slowly lost it. Let's face it, it's been a few years since anyone on that cast was on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine."

No offense, Whelp-- but I am having a really hard time understanding any of the supposed LOGIC or FACT that you use to compile your post.

"Angel" is being replaced by a 30 minute JEFF FOXWORTHY comedy (who, according to ImDB, is currently pushing 46) and yet another Improv Comedy show by DREW CAREY that basically takes his failed ABC crap-ola "Whose Line Is It Anyway" and adds Green Screen special effects/animation, etc. to the wacky proceedings.

Using your line of reasoning for the WB cancelling "Angel" to get that "teen girl" demographic...

When have you EVER seen Jeff Foxworthy or Drew Carey on the cover of Tiger Beat magazine?

ANGEL: All that I had to say about the finale has already been said.

Speculation on what might have been:
With no cancellation the rest of this season would have dealt with Illyria and her affect on the rest of the gang. I could see it ending with a finale that uncovered the Circle of the Black Thorn. The Circle would then have been the Big Bad of season 6. All those short night-cap style moments that we've seen the past few weeks (especially last night) would have been entire episodes that would have closed the book on the dangling plot lines. What might have been. One more season is all I wanted.

I loved this show and it was better than Buffy in the same way the ST:DS9 turned out to be better than ST:TNG. Absolutely great storytelling and character arcs. RIP Wes.

Now all I have is NYPD Blue and it's last season is next year. :(

-tpl

Tobin,
Yay! A DS9 fan! Yeah, there was actually intelligent writing, intricate plots, big moments you could only get in sci-fi, and characters you were REALLY invested in.
That was the last decent "Tek" show, and it WAS the best.
And for the reasons stated above, that is why I am going to miss "Angel" terribly. The premature cancellation really stinks. Can you imagine if they had to wrap up the Dominion War and all subplots in the FIFTH season?

why couldn't Wheedon just take Angel elsewhere?
Stargate went from Showtime to SciFi, Angel went from UPN to WB? I've seen shows move before. When Fox cancelled Firefly, couldn't they move it elsewhere?

PAD, I used my TIVO (you should really consider getting one...it's a godsend) to look at the scene with Chloe, and it definitely looks like she goes into the house (I think I can even make out her hair through the window in the door) just as it explodes.

ditto on ANGEL

as for Smallville- grisly as it may seem- I have the feeling that Chloe was probably right behind her father when the bomb went off. His body probably took the brunt of the damage, leaving Chloe alive- albeit quite injured (to the extent she'll need plastic surgery... and say, why not just take on a new identity while we're at it...?)

And yeah, I agree with the sentiment that the big radiating fissure was an entrance to the Phantom Zone. Ooh dang, I just got the sexual subtext of that and I wish I hadn't... Clark returned to the womb... through (in Jeremy's immortal words- from Barry Ween) "a big glowing vagina."

Okay, look--if Lindsay is diet Coke evil and he deserves to die, what does that make Harmony? She's a bloodthirsty killer and Angel lets her walk out with a letter of recommendation? Yeah, it was good for a laugh, but it doesn't make much sense in the larger scope of things.

Harmony's not a likely candidate to start a new Black Thorn circle.

I, too, loved the Angel finale from the teaser to the "Executive Producer Joss Whedon" credit. That other thing, shock it.

insideman...regarding the comments about Angels replacements on the WB..

You're right...Foxworthy and Drew Carey don't fit the demographic. But there are 2 factors that mitigate their placement on the fall schedule..

1) Ownership. I would bet dollars (not that I have any) to donuts (mmmm...donuts) that Warner Brothers owns both shows full out. Any revenues made off said shows are pure profit.

and

2) Production costs. Both of these shows are basically improv/sketch shows that are relatively dirt cheap to produce. Say what you will about "Whose Line" (and I really enjoyed it), the reason it stuck around for as long as it did was because it did reasonably well in the ratings whereever it was plugged in (it ran an entire season Thursdays at 8 against Friends in their prime) and it didn't cost the network an arm & a leg to produce.

All TV is about one thing only...money.

Sad but true

The Final "Angel" showdown:

I absolutely agree with the poster that noted, as portrayed, Angel and Company dealt Wolfram & Hart a MAJOR setback once the Circle was destroyed-- hence the OVERWHELMING show of force in the alley.

I also believe that every single one of Angel's group has SURVIVED the encounter... And will CONTINUE to believe it until Joss shows me otherwise. With the blood and the power of the Senior Partners coursing through his veins, Angel could not have looked more confident in that alley.

Is it really so hard to believe that Angel and his gang get as many licks/demon kills in as possible (Angel getting to slay his dragon of course)-- showing their heroic dedication to the good fight-- when the demons are suddenly "told" to pull back (for whatever reason)... leaving our heroes battered, broken but alive? Remember, ANYTHING is possible in the Whedon universe-- (including the resurrection of one Mr. Wyndham Price).

I would love to see an "Angel" movie start off at the EXACT POINT where the series left off.

I just don't get the whole Jor-El storyline, and its bothered me since he first started speaking to Clark. I mean, granted this is fiction, but he's supposed to be dead. Having all this interaction with Clark, and Jonathan, and now grabbing another person to throw into the mix...thats a lot of work for a dead guy. He is obviously not simply a recording of Jor-El (as in the movies), and all this straying from the traditional story is getting pretty aggravating. Maybe it is the Eradicator, I just wish they would get on with getting on with it already.

Also, the whole Native American angle is a bit odd. Not that I have a problem with the general concept, just that it seems to be shoehorned in most of the time. I mean, ancient artifacts, prophecies, all added together with everything else...its just "too many notes."

Does anyone have a clear understanding of how all of these elements are supposed to mesh together? I would really appreciate a little clarification.

> "Angel" is being replaced by a 30 minute JEFF FOXWORTHY comedy (who, according to ImDB, is currently pushing 46) and yet another Improv Comedy show by DREW CAREY

... because, after all, a Jeff Foxworthy show is more likely to hold on to the Smallville audience than would Angel.

Someone must really hate that time slot. (Although, I suppose the bright side is that I can finally watch West Wing in peace.)

I'd love to have been there for that pitch meeting. "Smallville's set on a farm in Kansas. Jeff Foxworthy is all about rural humor. It's a perfect match!"

I'm obviously making a trivial note here, but the whole time Angel was talking about not remembering his humanity, I was thinking back to the "I Will Remember You" episode from Season 1.

Didn't notice anyone else saying this, but if memory serves me right, Joss killed off all of the 1st season characters on screen except Angel. Cordy, Doyle, and Wes were the original three, and they are all gone. Toast. Never to return (or as never as things get in the Whedon universe, which is at least more consistent than the comic book universe).

So whether Angel lives or dies at the end, none of his original partners have survived. Hamilton was right -- Angel could not save any of them.

To my original comments posted last night, I have thought more about the ending. I still don't like it. I agree it fits best with the Whedon universe. But I believe good will win, and that it will win decisively. That does not mean Angel had to live at the end, but there was not a clear sense of hope that one day good really will make a difference. Gunn's visit to his friend, Angel's comments, etc, reinforced the notion promoted throughout the series: evil is as powerful as good, if not more so. The Powers that Be were at most neutral, and never clearly good.

This leads me to a core question: why was it best for Angel to go out fighting the good fight? What was the point? Within the universe created by Joss W, I don't get it. There is no truly higher power for good. I guess that is why Angel was such a love/hate show for me. I loved the writing and the character development, but hated the hopelessness that seeped in around the edges. I am not wanting a feel good show where good neatly wins over evil every week, or where there is not strugle with truly grey issues, but I am wanting a show that indicates there is a source of something that is truly good and noble and right and pure.

Bottom line, Angel was fun, but it was not the epic that JMS created with B5. It did not reach that level of even the B5 clone, Deep Space 9. So I won't miss it as much as I do B5 and am not anxiously awaiting a TV movie.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Jim in Iowa

Well, William, not that I've really been watching "Smallville" (conflicts with "Enterprise" - yes, I like it, and no, I'm not ashamed :) ), but I've been trying to keep up, with recaps both here and at Television Without Pity, and the feeling I'm getting is -

- that mysterioso force, claiming to be Jor-El, screwing with people's heads, faking up ancient Indian art of Kryptonian fashions, is none other than the infamous interstellar criminal, the aforementioned Gen. Zod, running a potentially lethal mindf**k on Jonathan Kent and company. I think he's hoping to drive young Kal-El insane, or at least turn him to the Dark Side. ("The Solar Power is strong in this one, my lord. He would make a powerful ally." )

I think the Eradicator would present itself first as a genuine Kryptonian artifact, since its AI would be attuned toward the apparent Kryptonian mindset of utter superiority over all other life-forms. It wouldn't bother pretending to be a lesser being - at first, anyway...

CHRIS:

I understand and agree wholeheartedly with what you're stating. I also understand the REAL REASONS why "Angel" was cancelled as well.

I stated what I stated in my earlier post simply because I was replying to "Whelp's" post and nothing more.

I know it's ALL about the money and the fact that the WB has no back-end profit participation in "Angel" syndication and DVD revenues (and that the replacement shows are cheaper to produce).

There may be NO bad blood between Joss and the WB (although I find that extremely hard to believe)... But I can guarantee there is still PLENTY of bad blood between FOX STUDIOS (the production entity behind "Angel") and the WB Network-- remaining from when Fox yanked "Buffy" from the WB and took it to UPN over three years ago. That unceremonious and ill-advised Fox power play put "Angel" on the WB's future cancellation list as much as anything did.

Hell hath no FURY like a network scorned-- no matter how long ago it happened.

The below is a direct quote from Mr. Whedon's interview with TV Guide:

"For one thing, he's been talking with Dark Horse Comics about reviving the canceled Buffy comic book and possibly making it a permanent part of the Buffy canon."

Mr. David, would it be considered unseemly if a few of us started a e-mail campaign, if and when an agreement is announced, as to possible creative personel for said book.

Just wondering.

I'm impressed that not a single person has complained about "Angel" "wasting time" on the "last day" business. I remember all the frustration when, in the "Twin Peaks" finale, the old guy at the bank walked... ever... so... slowly... to... get... Audrey... a... cup... of... water... and... back... again...

It was nice to see Anne again, though I couldn't swear that it was the same actress.

I think they addressed the why-is-Harmony-playing-nice question that many raised here.

I know I was supposed to get teary as Illyria-as-Fred comforted the dying Wes, but I didn't. I did weep at the "Frasier" finale, though. A little surprised they used the punch-through-the-head bit two years in a row, though it did look cooler than Connor's hit on Jasmine. Was that red guy really Dennis Christopher? I would never have guessed it was "Dave Stohler" from one of my all-time favorite movies.

I was really surprised at how much I liked this episode, especially since I thought last week's lead-in was so lackluster. Spike had some great moments (his "no amulet speech"; the poetry slam; raising his hand at the "Judas moment"); Wesley's arc came to a satisfying and logical ending; Harmony's bow-out was quite amusing; the final Lorne/Lindsey development was unexpected; and even Connor was almost tolerable. Not as satisfying as "Buffy's" finale, obviously, but I rather liked the ambiguity. And that glimpse of all those creatures we get rushing toward them at the end was effectively creepy. Naturally, I'd love to see these characters again. But if we don't, I found this to be a very satisfying way to say "goodbye." (And, hey, at least Angel didn't wake up in bed in the final scene with Darla to discover "it was only a dream!")

P.S. Anyone here see Carisma Carpenter's pics in the new "Playboy"? I've never thought her face was particularly "all that," but, I must say, her bod (presumably bought and paid for), is pretty friggin' hot.

To anyone who misses Cordelia, here's a shameless plug:
PLAYBOY's May issue.

That said, and having the full attention of fanboys everywhere, let me just tag-
Working backwards for ANGEL's penultimate episode,
CATWOMAN promo: craptacular.
WB "Thank You" to fans: Hypocritical.
Butch and Sundance ending, along with "I get the dragon" line by DB: standing ovation!
Illyria being pronounced "part of the team": about time they had a strong female a$$kicker on the Fang Gang!
Gunn surviving to join the gang in the Alley: Hey, mortals can kick butt too!
Lorne offing Lesley: about time he showed he COULD be Pylean, after all! Very GODFATHER, I agree. Sorry to see the Green Guy go, but he is at heart a pacifist.
Wesley's death: sad! Little angry - I mean, this is a guy that survived severe GSW, having his throat slit, etc...what's a little gutting? I think he wanted to go. Very moving scene with Dead-Fred cradling Wes. In the end, I think Blue Meanie actually LOVED Wes. She must have, to feel grief at his loss...
Clearly the scene that moved me most.
Good for her, punching a hole in that snobby demon's head.
Connor and Daddy tag-teaming poor Adam Baldwin- classic moment! And Angels' line about "Can you pick the one word in that sentence you shouldn't say to a vampire" - died laughing!
yadda yadda yadda to the beginning of the show - too much to review in one workday.
On that note, we cue the music...

When I saw the illegible scrawl Angel wrote on the Shonshu prophecy, I imagined someone evil screaming, "But you signed it away! You signed your humanity away!! Here's your name, right here: 'Angel!!'"
...and Angel replying, "My name is Seamus Flynn."
Or whatever his name was when he was alive.
And then he tears the evil one apart.

Paul

Can't recall who said it earlier.. "SMALLVILLE:Missed some of the beginning but i caught the oh so good conclusion.Chloe go boom,
Jonathan dead or incapcitated,Lionel in prison,
Lex poisoned,and Clark elsewhere(krypton,phantom
zone)"

Maybe Clark is in the Phantom Zone and its Zod, not Jor-El that is pulling the strings.

Hey, can anyone tell me if there was a specific Godfather moment reference in Lorne-Lindsey? I'm wracking my brain and coming up blank.

Friends could have learned from Angel and Frasier how to really end a series, by the way.

ANGEL: What can I say that hasn't already been said? Great, great episode and an absolutely perfect coda to everything that came before. Although it's true it IS a perfect ending with a perfect message ("never give up/never stop fighting!"); and now that I've seen it, I wouldn't want to see a season 6 or reunion film because it would dilute the palpable impact of this series-ender; and sure, a lot of people would say Angel & co. are toast five, maybe ten minutes after the fade to black, did anyone catch Joss' Zap2it.com interview? Back to it later as I like it as a closing shot....

That said, one thing that jumped out at me: Angel didn't sign his real name on the prophecy. He signed "Angel"--isn't that like someone signing a so-called binding contract by their nickname "Lefty" or "Squiggy"? Symbolically I guess it fits, that the hero signs his reward away because for him, there is no reward; the hero fights for what he believes in with no guarantee that his actions will make things better, but with faith that they will. But thinking about it another way, that true names have power (season 4!) and that not once have we discovered Angel's true name during the series' entire run (first name, Liam; last name, anyone's guess!)...well, I still think Angel could eventually get his reward. Color me overly optimistic.

Finally, back to that Joss interview: two things stuck out like thumbs sore from waging a never-ending battle:

On the never-to-be season 6: "Next season would have been some serious chaos."

And this last, even more ominous hint of things never-to-come: "If you buck the system and do your best to make it collapse, what if it does?"

"If." "If." Dang, but Joss had it all figured out.

~Gary

As Kenneth just mentioned, Hamilton was played by Adam Baldwin, also remembered as "My Bodyguard" and a super soldier on "The X-Files."

Brian Thompson was the supposed alien bounty hunter on "The X-Files," a vampire on the first two episodes of "Buffy," and The Judge in the second season of "Buffy."

I wasn't at all reminded of "The Godfather" in the Lorne/Lindsey scene. Maybe some dialogue was referenced that some people recognized?

I work at night, so all my TV shows have to be taped. I'll miss "Frasier" and "Angel," but I won't miss having to make time to watch them. The way it's going, I'm down to "The Simpsons," "Malcolm," and — with luck — "Arrested Development."

And I read today that Denis Leary and Lenny Clarke are working on a "The Job"-like take on firefighters...

Already posted some comments but here we go again.
Nice to see other brains work like mine in regards to Smallville.If its not Jorel it may be Zod Or the Eradicator.Yes Chloe go boom but what better way to protect her then to make the world think she is dead?She gets a new id and new start
on life.
I do have a problem with one post mentioning evil definitely winning on Angel and another mentioning there was no way they could win.
First ,with all the moving and shaking going on in LA im sure someone in the scoobeys or slayer network got wind so the troops maybe on the way.Kinda hard to miss a demon giant and Dragon,ya know.Just speculation but thats why the ending worked anything could happen,cause we dont know the ending.
Finally lets say evil does win ,it doesnt make the fight any less important.I refuse to accept that evil always wins and there is no point to fighting the good fight cause you might not win.
Lets not forget the Senior partners were afraid of Illyria and wanted Angel on their side.There has to be reason for that and if Gunn a mere mortal could make a dent in there plans on his own before hooking up with Angel he is also a threat ,Spike is dangerous cause he is a total
loose cannon at times.
By the way The Catwoman ads look like crap!!

Luck is with you...Arrested Development has been picked up for another season. A real shocker for me. A quality show picked up!

It's one of the few shows I'll be watching next year, apparently. There's not much of interest for me on network TV next fall.

."..and Angel replying, "My name is Seamus Flynn."
Or whatever his name was when he was alive"

For the record, his name was Liam. His last name isn't known.

PAD

GEEK POINTS to Peter !!! :-)

What else can be said about this ending that hasn't been covered here already? Not much. This is probably the best ending to a series I have ever seen. But more than that, I think Joss Whedon and the whole crew of writers are some of the most talented on tv or any medium. I like Joss' uncompromising way of doing a series, not watered down for people to just jump in whenever. You have to know the back stories to get the full impact of his shows. Maybe not the best for ratings but amazing for those of us who've been around from the get go.

I'm at my third viewing of the episode and still marvel at how much they were able to cram into such little time. The character interaction was dead on. The unending rivalry between Angel and Spike, reverting to street action vamp killing Gunn who seemed at his most comfortable getting his hands dirty rather than wearing the suit, my man Wes... The look he gave Angel as he was leaving Spike's place said it all. It was gonna be him for sure. Ilyria's reaction afterwards... All great stuff. Lorne, wow... He was never cut out for the brawling but I think it showed his devotion to Angel and the cause for him to carry out that execution. And as stated before, Lindsey is not part of the solution therefore part of the problem. A considerable part. He had to go. I liken Angel somewhat to Wolverine in the sense that his solutions are not always morally correct. He's somewhat of an extremist, he kills. Lindsay was a reccuring thorn in his side and his work. He removed it. I wasn't bothered by it cause unlike Spike and Angel, Lindsey wasn't compelled to do evil because he was bound to some kind of demon. He just did it of his own free will.

The last days for all the crew were also very enjoyable. Leave it to Joss to pull the rug out from under us almost everytime. Connor knowing about his past, Spike who I thought for sure was gonna indulge in one last bar brawl... "The wanton folly of me mom..." I almost cried I was laughing so hard. Whedonverse continuity again here... I love it.

There's so much more to this episode that I could find to talk about. The intricacies and significance of things that might seem completly mundane to the Whedonverse untrained eye. All and all I feel that if it had to go, this is the way to do it, leaving hope and not necessarly for a spinoff or a Tv movie. Just hope.

I almost don't want there to be anything after such a proper finale.

Looks like luck is with us again in a manner of speaking--just as D. Eric wrote that "Arrested Development" has been renewed, so too has Fox officially renewed "Tru Calling" for a second season despite the fact its ratings weren't even truly on par with "Firefly" (at least, IIRC). Check Variety's website. It's scheduled for a full season and the timeslot is changing to Thursday at 9PM ET.

Strange luck, indeed....(Hey! Who remembers THAT show???)

~Gary

PAD, any chance you read The Brat Queen's journal? Her post about the finale, with the exception of the HoYay! she finds in it, is very similar to your thoughts on it.

SMALLVILLE: Yeah, this Kara is as much of a red herring as Adam Knight was. But wouldn't it be nice to see a 'Supergirl' series, ESPECIALLY if she was handled properly?
ANGEL: With all the circumstances behind the scenes, could we realistically expect anything else?
Maybe Whedon could write or at least authorize a book to wrap up everything with Buffy/Angel, unless TNT, Sci-Fi, FX, or an unknown fourth canidate has picked up Angel for a sixth season/movies(?) and we just don't know it yet.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
THE WB: Yeah, the wat bastawds!

Strange Luck was great! How about Stingray?

I remember and liked Stingray.
Don't think that Stephen J. Cannel was ever capable of making a bad show, at least as far as content is concerned.

Nice reference there to Blake's 7, Warren S. Jones. :)

ANGEL:Excellent, excellent, excellent show. A few weeks back, I had heard of spoilers for the finale, and comments that Wesley's death would be 'meaningless.' I beg to differ. His behavior and death help catalyst Illria into being a 'good guy' in the fight. Kinda funny when you think of how this season was about how the good guys were working for the baddies, and in the end, a reversal had happened. The show was about redemption, and it succeeded in many levels. I for one will miss it. *raises a goblet of boor's blood mixed with otter to toast*

SMALLVILLE: Here's a crazy thought: Instead of maybe the Jor-El voice being the Eradicator, why can't it be Brainiac? Since the show has used a mix of different aspects to Superman mythos, why use an idea from the last animated series?

I wasn't so sure about the Kara/Supergirl idea for the episode, and how it panned out. Making her into an almost Kryptonite villain of the week lessened the episode. I think its about time that Clark has a philosophical debate with 'Jor-El' about humanity, maybe using Kara as Jor-El's mouthpiece. Instead, it comes off as 'Look, she's not from Krypton. She's a victim of the meteor shower, blah blah blah...' that is getting annoying. Was funny that her real first name was Lindsey...sort of like, oh...Linda.

As for the Luthor storyline, all I can think of is four words:

THEY SAVED LUTHOR'S BRAIN!!!

Per ANGEL, an amusing hypothetical postscript to the ending here.

Per SMALLVILLE....

Until the finale episode, I'd never been entirely convinced that the Jor-El voice -- whoever's behind it -- was actually expressing evil intent. It seemed to me that Clark was misreading, or putting inappropriate "spin", on the messages from Dr. Swann and from the spaceship.

The advent of Kara throws a major monkey wrench into that theory; Kara's actions and strategy for luring Clark into the Crack of Doom (or wherever the darn thing goes) are clearly those of a black hat, and the Jor-El Voice seems to be buying into them (though even that might be finessed).

What occurs to me here, though, is that I think this is the first time that the Jor-El Voice and its agenda have been definitively tied into the caves and by extension the Kawatchi lore. We know that the Kawatchi lore is of Kryptonian origin because the spaceship's key works on the cave's hidden control systems. But we don't know for sure what the actual connection may be between the cave contents and Clark's spaceship with its messages from Jor-El in it.

I agree with Brian Gibbons' post. He thinks Buffy, Willow and the Slayer Army shows up to help save the day. In my little fantasy world, where my favorite shows don't end until I want them to, that would be the season opener next fall. I don't think they would have bumped off Wes had another season been in the offing, but that death scene actually had me choking back tears. Dunno, just got to me and I'm not the weepy type. Well, it's one more hour freed up for other stuff. And that WB message at the end - it's like one of my customers told me today - it's as if a murderer spoke at his victim's funeral.

The reference to THE GODFATHER that I saw was how (in both shows last night) we have the climax being the various killings--recall the juxtaposition of the Corleone family settling all accounts as Michael acts as Godfather to his nephew.

The comparison even more blatant on Smallville--substitute Lionel getting his hair cut with the baptism and all they would have needed was Moe Green getting shot in the eye to make it perfect.

Can someone explain to me exactly HOW Angel could just sign away the Shonshu prophecy? Since when are prophecies something you can cross off with a stroke of the pen? Haven't there been episodes aplenty with some evil demon all hot and bothered about a prophecy that ends with him getting dusted by Conner or something? Why not just write down something like "Null and Void, Evil demon" and that's the end of it.

Peter's comments about whether the gang win or lose being less important than that they know that they fought the good fight even if no-one else does and his remarks about the conclusion of Buffy got me thinking, and i came up with this summation -- Buffy (the series, that is) was concerned with winning and losing. Angel was concerned with Fighting The Good Fight, even if it was probably hopeless in the end.

As Billy, the King in Romero's brilliant Knightriders (which in my opinion tells us more about the truth behind the Arthur legends than any other film i've seen) says when people want him to focus on mundane matters rather than the Important Things "I'm just trying to fight the dragon!" -- which i was strongly reminded of by Angel's calling dibs on the dragon.

For me, Ilyria emerges as the Tragic Figure this time, because she learns two Very Hard Things -- first, too late and too tragically, she learns what it means to be human. And, from that, she learns that Little Big Man knew what he was talking about -- "It is a good night to die!"

Wesley's death hardly surprised me -- he's been fey for a long time.

As to the Wat Bastawds' little poison valentine -- i imagine a comic which had been in the hands of one writer for years, during which he had taken it and its at-first-glance less than promising central character to heights it would probably never reach again.

Because of the usual "creative differences", the writer was leaving. He wrote a final issue that was Simply Incredible, an epilog to everything he had done, with pathos and tragedy and some humour.

It was perfect.

And then the editor and publisher gave the incoming creative team two pages of epilog after his story to undo important elements in it and to generally piss on his grave before he was even cold.

WatBastawds are everywhere.

Poster who mentioned the possibility of Brainiac being the voice.BRILLIANT !Never considered that
good idea.
To continue the argument of the fang gang making it out alive.,consider this.Angel said himself he is one of the biggest murderers in human history.This includes demons and humans.I seem to remeber him slaughtering a monastery full of kungfu monks after Buffys'death(the Glory one).Spike is no slouch with the killing and has
two (three?)slayers to his kill chart.Gunn just massacred a roomful of vamps solo,and Illyria probably evented more ways to kill than they know combined.W&H sent a lot of fire power for 4 beings.Since their reach is far and wide someone
on the side of good or evil would notice.
Not for nothing but im sure the interest would be there to find out just who is warrants all the force and what are they doing.Good or bad someone may see at as a chance to take a crack at W&H.
Just a thought:)

We-hell.

Anyone ever watch Blackadder Goes Forth - specifically, the very end of the last episode? This is a touch more upbeat than that, but not much. How long do the nights last in summer in LA? 'Cause they didn't start fighting till the sun went down. If, as Joss suggested, this was to be a cliffhanger they turned into an ending, they would have copped out in 6x01.

Good ep tho. I'm not as depressed as I was after Farscape 4x22 [I don't think the ending/cancellation of any other show ever will ever knock me as much for six as that one did. I didn't cry, I was just left incredibly depressed for hours afterward.] I don't have that here - I'm a bit off, slightly depressed, but, well, life goes on.

Bye Angel. It was good while it lasted.

To Jim in Iowa:

I get where you're coming from, but the point is exactly that they fight against such overwhelming odds. Hope comes from fighting the things that are wrong about the world, no matter how impossible it may seem. Yeah, it's unlikely that there will ever be a final conflict where good triumphs over evil, but that's why they call it "The Never-Ending Battle." Doesn't make it any less worth fighting. The point of Angel, the point of heroes, is to remind us that the fight is always worth fighting.

Or, as Dylan Thomas put it, "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

I can't believe Kenneth was the only one to mention Angels' "Can you guess the one word in that sentence you probably shouldn't have said?" line. I loved it! And the verbal sparring... "Did that hurt?" "Little bit." Man, I'll miss this show... Gonna have to go out and start picking up the DVDs now.

Ah, thank you, Bill Mulligan - that makes sense with Angel / Godfather juxtaposition.

A variety of things...

Someone mentioned that Tru Calling is coming back despite worse numbers than Firefly. I don't know about the numbers but it's entirely possible - likely, really - that it's a cheaper show than Firefly's 2M per. Business is business and I would rather sell 5,000 widgets with $300 of profit each than 10,000 widgets with $100 profit each.

I think haggling over what name Angel signed - in his own blood, of his own free will - is besides the point. Either the intent is enough and it's something you can sign away (and really, we don't think there's a Supreme Court Powers That Be do we? It's gotta be representative magic or some such hoohah) or it was a bluff/test from the Circle a la the old saw about giving the trainee spy an empty revolver and demanding they shoot their spouse or somesuch.

I enjoyed the ending. It fit well, it didn't screw up the pacing with wayyyyy too long a third act and really, it couldn't BE a bigger opening for future stuff. New tv movie? *p0p* Willow or whoever whisks them away 1 second after our POV went black. Illirya pulls some more jetsam from Fred's mind and opens up a transdimensional portal for them. Flying monkeys steal them away. Whatever. Any of it is possible.

As far as Wesley's death you could even bop your way around that. Being dead didn't slow down Holland Mathers or Lilah from wandering about much. The only difference there is they were under contract to Wolfram and Hart.... oh wait.

Longtime reader first time poster.

I had mixed feelings about Angel's finale. When the exec producer credit popped up I had to react with an "oh, no." Even though I agree it was bold and thematically perfect, part of me wanted more closure. It was especially frustrating to see Shanshu brought up, only to have that plot tied up with, "oh, the prophecy? Yeah, that's not gonna happen." I also felt when he signed it that his true name, Liam, would grant him a loophole. Anyway, as time goes by, I'm getting more comfortable with the open ending, and think it was very ballsy and cool.

I think the most tragic thing about Wes is he died before we could ever see a reunion with Giles. I wanted ripper to see Wes had become a better warrior and leader than he ever was.

By the way, does it bug anyone else that after 12 whedonverse seasons, no one dusted Drusilla? All her attrocities and she's still out there. For the same reason, I wouldn't have minded seeing Harmony killed. It just irks me when specific baddies are allowed to roam free, continuing their wanton killings (anyone remember Lyle Gorch?).

Lorne's execution ranks up there with Giles killing Ben/Glory as a great, "Did he just...? Hey, that's pretty cool." moment.

All in all I love the show, and have to admit that by the end, I liked and respected the fang gang way more than the scoobies, lousy off-screen snobs.

r.i.p.

btw, does anyone know a place that takes Buffy fan fiction? I've got a spec script that I'd love fans to read.

d.h.

PAD,

Actually, just to twist the knife a bit - Wes doesn't even get to end up with Fred in death. Illyria used Fred's soul and other inner bits for fuel during her rebirth. Hence, the whole Angel not being able to "re-ensoul" her thing during that ep where they were all desperately trying to find a way to bring Fred back.

Poor, poor Wesley. He never even got to find out for certain who sent a cyborg ninja pretending to be his abusive Dad. At least his death scene was longer than Anya's.

Great finale, tho'. Kudos to them for staying true to the spirit of Angel.

Any chance you might write an Angel novel? I've always thought you and Angel would be a perfect fit.

Destroying that car and killing the motorist inside pretty much cinched it for me too that it wasn't Kara. But I had no idea how the creators were going to make it not her, yet give her the powers and knowledge that she had.

Incredible season finale. Can't wait for the season four premiere.

As to the contract: don't forget we're dealing with a law firm here. Angel signing "Angel" worked for the original Wolfram and Hart contract, so I'd assume it'd work here. After all, a signature is what you adopt as your signature...it doesn't have to look like your name. I know mine doesn't.

Beside, Angel seemed like he was pretty much committed to giving it up. The conversation he had with Harmony about being human seemed to show he knew he had given up his shot.

As for the higher power for good being absent or non-interfering in the Whedonverse, I agree. But it's not a bad thing. It's something that makes the characters' struggle and goals even more worthwhile. That was the point of the finale, that even if bad was going to win no matter what, that the struggle is what's worthwhile.

The real issue is that there IS hope, and Angel himself knows it. His quote about the fact that the world used to belong to the demons and has belonged to the humans for a while now shows that the hope exists.

Perfect ending for me.

Can someone explain to me exactly HOW Angel could just sign away the Shonshu prophecy? Since when are prophecies something you can cross off with a stroke of the pen?

I don't think it was specifically the prophecy he signed away, but his destiny. We've already seen that the prophecy could refer to him or Spike, so it's not set in stone to begin with. In the Vegas episode we saw that it's possible for destinies to be transferred to other people, so I assume the contract did something similar.

Or, since evil folks are usually liars of the Grandmaster-Level, signing the prophecy may have had no effect what-so-ever and was purely a symbolic act with no real effect.

Or worse, imagin he actually agreed to it be signing, and just as they're about to defeat the horde of bad guys attacking them, Angel becomes human and loses all his vampire abilities and strengths....

A good conclusion, but there were several dangling plot developments that make me wonder.

1.) The Senator's opposition. Clearly the spell was cast that caused him to confess to being a pedophile. I'm going to assume that most of what we saw about him in the commercial was true and that he was a decent man. Angel sacrficed him.

2.) The baby was given back to the woman that signed him over. Angel's decision.

3.) The Truthsayer was set up by Angel to convince the Black Thorns that Angel wanted in. Then Angel murdered him as the final initiation.

Is there that much diference between Angel and Angelus in the end?

By the way, in regards to the title, "Not Fade Away," I now find that to be appropriate. The LA gang will never do that. They went down fighting. And all allusions aside, until and unless Whedon specifically states otherwise and explains how they could possibly have survived, they're dead.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing because the Scoobies have 'faded away'. I believe that at the beginning of the season Whedon definitely intended to bring more of the cast of Buffy over, keep them in the spotlight. But the realities of entertainment careers, juggling schedules and prior commitments (and please, let us not engage in character assassination as to why someone might not have wanted to commit in the first place) made that extremely difficult.

They did fade away, as Mr. David has commented upon in the past, they acted in ways that they probably wouldn't have done had they appeared on the show instead of always being refered to or talked to over the phone. A betrayal here and a refusal to help there.

The cast of Angel did not fade away.

Hamiliton stated "We are legion." Angel's response could be "We are legend."

Just in closing. A friend who liked "The Girl In Question" suggested that I watch it again after the final episode and see if the conclusion altered my opinion of it.

Yes, I dislike it even more. The humor of "Not Fade Away" was far more apropriate to the series than the slapstick of the earlier effort and seemed to fit Angel and Spike far better.

Second, do you think the 'moving on' speech might have contributed to the decision to engage in a unwinable battle. Men fight to survive who have something to live for, to aspire to. Men without that simply fight.

"...(and please, let us not engage in character assassination as to why someone might not have wanted to commit in the first place)..."

Gee, and I just finished cleaning and polishing my Character Sniper Rifle, too! :(

pgavigan stated:

"And all allusions aside, until and unless Whedon specifically states otherwise and explains how they could possibly have survived, they're dead."

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I said the EXACT OPPOSITE above you in the same thread.

I don't believe FICTIONAL heroes have to die to resonate. We get enough of death in REAL life. (See the death of fictional character James T. Kirk as a prime example.)

Most fans don't want their heroes to permanently die-- if for the simple reason they don't like the idea of investing untold hours, days or years into their heroes just to see them die. That's why the Whedon Universe was always so comforting-- because death often served as a second chance for redemption.

If Angel and his friends did die in that battle (and I see no evidence that they did) I, for one, am glad it was OFF CAMERA.

Given the fact that Joss Whedon has already made it clear (in an interview on zap2it.com) that he can't imagine the Buffy Universe not continuing in some form (he even hinted about taking his talents to HBO 'cause he likes the cussin')-- I can't imagine Angel is dead.

Hopefully, one day, we'll both get to see who was right.

The cynical side of me thinks that the "Butch and Sundance" ending was Whedon's way of drumming up fan support for an Angel made for TV movie.

After all, such cliffhander endings worked for Alien Nation and Farscape.

I'm ashamed to admit I didn't see Kara being a fake. It crossed my mind, but Smallville has turned the mainstream Superman history just enough that it throws me. Her lack of concern for human life meshed with what we've seen/heard from Jor-El, so it appeared entirely plausible that, someone raised by Jor-El would share his lack of concern. Still, glad to see in the end that she was a dupe, and not the real deal.

Angel, hard to add to what's already been written. Direct to DVD movies sounds like an interesting idea. I'd buy. With Angel gone, there's precious little left of "network" shows for me to watch.

I've seen some Blake's 7 references regarding Angel's ending, so I'll throw this obscure reference into the mix: "Angel ducked...."

Can't believe there's actually something everyone hasn't already mentioned. But here it is.

I grant that Spike's poetry reading at the bar was a neat bit of reversal (Mr. Whedon does enjoy that whiplash, doesn't he?). But, friends and neighbors, it was much, much more than that. Through BUFFY and ANGEL, Spike has shown insight into individual personalities that no other character in either show could match (indeed, it was this insight that made his Iago moves in BUFFY work), not to mention a taste for the nitty-gritty of everyday life that Angel never really had time for (except for coffee with Connor; and didn't he tell Joyce Summers that caffeine gave him the jitters?). In other words, William/Spike has, and has never lost, the mind of a poet. He may or may not have had the skills for florid diction that in breathing-life he might have wished for, but that was just as likely an indication of his aristocratic companions' taste as of his talent. (Personally, I didn't find one bloody thing wrong with "effulgent." And that his parlor critics were being their usual cruel selves is undisputed.) What shone through continually was his involvement with life, his desire to experience it from the inside, and his ability to observe people. His triumph in the bar vindicated who he is, and his "That was for Cecily" brought to a satisfying close the arc that started in the parlor so long ago.

Plus, it also illustrated Count Vorkosigan's advice: Preserve your honor. Let your reputation take care of itself. And outlive the bastards.

Oh, yeah: And massive kudos to Whedon and most definitely Marsters for making this character work.

Word.

I don't have much else to add... although Wes' death was sort of anticlimactic. He and Fred JUST get together... and Whedon yanks Fred away. Then Wes gets gutted. It didn't quite have the impact that, say, Cordy's death did... possibly because it came when the rest of the cast was also known to be gone (most likely).

On the plus side, Illyria was more interesting than Fred, and it does show Amy's acting ability.

Michael Spence - bonus points for the Vorkosigan reference! We had someone read a quote from "Cordelias Honor" at our wedding... so you could say we rather like the books...

Dunno, Spike's poetry seem more Vogon than anything else :)

"I've seen some Blake's 7 references regarding Angel's ending, so I'll throw this obscure reference into the mix: "Angel ducked...." "

Vila clearly did not duck. He tripped!

Gonna have to do my own lj post on the Angel conclusions. But, basically:

1. I liked it.
2. It was better than the Buffy Finale.
3. I hate the re-write on Lindsay's character for the entire season 5.
4. There are lots of plot holes I'm starting to spot.
5. The Jasmine arc is still my favorite.
6. Spike reading poetry rocks. Anne rocks.
7. And I really liked the ending.

Don't know if I've much to say here that hasn't already been said, but here goes anyway:

-- Connor. It's becoming more clear to me that the problem with Connor in season 4 was the character, not the actor. I've liked Connor a lot both times he appeared this season; the "what, you come by for a cup of coffee and the world's NOT ending?" line was beautifully done.

-- Lorne/Lindsey. Damn, but I should've called this sometime in the episode before it happened. Lisa did at the start of the scene -- something like "Lorne just looks entirely too uncomfortable ... he's got something left to do he doesn't want to ... oh, HELL." Lindsey's reaction was absolutely spot-on (and probably similar to what Cartagia's would've been in B5 had he gotten any real dialogue after the fact).

-- Wesley. Someone had spoiled this for me in advance (and a hearty "grrrrrr" to them, sans "argh"), but it still hit hard. Definitely agreed with Peter here; he's got one of the most tragic arcs of anyone in the Whedonverse. What a journey from the idiot Watcher of 1999. (I wasn't totally enchanted with the Illyria/evil-wizard bit afterwards, though; I see the point, but at least on first viewing I feel like it intruded on the emotion a little.)

-- A lot of really great moments (seeing Anne again, letting Gunn cut loose, Spike's poetry reading, much of the Angel/Hamilton dialogue (especially the "which one word" question), etc.

-- The ending. I figure Joss guaranteed that everyone would have the same response on the end credits: "Son of a BITCH." The only question was whether we'd be smiling or snarling as we said it. I was smiling: I want more, of course, but what a neat way to end.

All in all, a very solid way to end a usually-solid series.

TWL

On a slight digression...

Yay! A DS9 fan! Yeah, there was actually intelligent writing, intricate plots, big moments you could only get in sci-fi, and characters you were REALLY invested in.

And for the reasons stated above, that is why I am going to miss "Angel" terribly. The premature cancellation really stinks. Can you imagine if they had to wrap up the Dominion War and all subplots in the FIFTH season?

Given how much I felt the overemphasis on the war detracted from DS9's last two seasons, I'm not sure that's the best analogy. DS9 nearly always got beautifully high marks for ambition, but I always had difficulty with the fact that they'd so frequently settle for less than they could have.

(And the way Dukat's character was mangled in the last season and a half REALLY bugs me, even now.)

And as an aside to the aside, since there are undoubtedly lots of people here who read PAD's Trek work -- let me also recommend all of the "season 8" DS9 novels that have come out over the past 3 years or so. Absolutely kick-ass stuff.

TWL

Lisa: Agreed--Anne rocks. And to Raymond's post on the 20th, yes, it was the same actress. When her name flashed on the screen at the beginning, I thought, "Hot dog! She gets a curtain call too!" Although her story had already been finished, it was good to see this character who had come so far since her "airhead Lily" turn on BUFFY. "Can I be Anne?" she had asked--and she did, with energy to spare.

James B: Wow. That must've been something to hear. Sorry to have missed it.

Bladestar: Right. :) back at you.

One other thing on Spike: Ever notice who was consistently best at seeing past appearances and getting to the heart of the matter? E.g., on Oz's departure, when everyone was saying how bravely Willow was getting on with her life, it was evil Spike who scolded them with, "Can't you _see?_ She's hanging by a thread!" This time, he was the one who could tell Illyria that her ability to pass as Fred was, as far as this crew was concerned, her most "devastating" power. On FIREFLY, Whedon said his people-perceptive character was Kaylee. In the Buffy universe, it appears to be Spike.

Angel: I use to mock a few friends that watched Buffy, then during the last Season of Buffy they started to replay the old episodes two or three times a week, and I started to watch it and discovered that I enjoyed it, a first just for its humor, but then I got into the characters and, well, I began to watch Angel as well. I wish now that I had actually taken the time to watch Buffy and Angel from the beginning... But at least I've got to see them, and now how good they truly are.

The series finale of Angel was just awesome, I loved every minute of it, and wished that it would have been two hours just so I could see Angel slay that Dragon... Because while I know that, yeah, they are all probably dead... I still hold out some hope. I mean just because Angel signed over his destiny doesn't mean the Shinshu (sp?) is void altogether... There is still Spike, so at least he has to live... Right?

Wes and Illyria's final scene together was just about perfect... Could have been better, I mean he could have lived, but I still liked it, hell I loved it.

The ending in the alley, just everything about the episode I enjoyed. My favorite line belongs to Angel though "Me, I'd like to slay the Dragon." (or something like that.)

"(And the way Dukat's character was mangled in the last season and a half REALLY bugs me, even now.)"

Let's see now - he signs a deal with the Devil, reachign accomodation with the Founders in order to satisfy his obsession with regaining Terak Nor (don't tell me I misspelled it - the words aren't even in any Terran language!); his paranoia was further fed by Sisko's baseball on the desk; his most trusted lieutenant plots to betray him, and shoots his daughter - the only living being he truly cares about (other than his consuming hatred of Sisko); and he loses the station AGAIN, to Sisko AGAIN...

...and you don't think that's enough to drive Gul Dukat thoroughly batshit crazy?

Given how much I felt the overemphasis on the war detracted from DS9's last two seasons, I'm not sure that's the best analogy. DS9 nearly always got beautifully high marks for ambition,

Which is MUCH more than I can say about Trek post DS9.....

Jonathan,

"Batshit crazy" isn't the problem. One-note bad guy is the problem. Give me the Dukat of seasons 2-5, who could protest that he was the victimized party at the exact moment he was sticking a dagger in your back -- the one who could engage Sisko in a true debate of ideas rather than an on-your-knees-you-worm bit.

An insane Dukat could have been phenomenally interesting -- and was, at the end of "Sacrifice of Angels" and most of "Waltz." A Dukat who was made "pure evil" by writer fiat was not. (Towards the end, when Dukat was masquerading as Anjohl (sp?) ... that part was usually very good.) Proper antagonists are manipulators, not rantors. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Roger -- no argument there. I always poked and prodded DS9 for not going as far as it could, but it usually always TRIED. I think it easily reached the furthest of all the Trek series; the fact that it often fell short of the mark doesn't mean I don't give it a lot of credit for trying.

Hell, it's the only Trek series I'm potentially willing to pay Paramount's exorbitant DVD prices for.

TWL

Tim,
I guess we'll agree to disagree on the Dominion War. Different 'strokes for different folks. I just felt it made for some real hard choices - and manipulations - that wouldn't have been there otherwise ("In The Pale Moonlight").
I do agree that Dukat becoming truuuuuly eeevil was disappointing, as I felt he was possibly the most interesting "villain" in the history of television, and he's definitely in the conversation. The episode where "duty" ("Defiant") caused him to miss his son's birthday was one case in point.
And as another poster stated, have any of the subsequent Trek shows been one-hundredth as interesting, or have characters as juicy as Weyoun, Garak and so many others?
One point I agree with whole-heartedly is the quality of the "Season 8 and Beyond Books". I have all of them, and they are the only Trek books - besides PAD's and Friedman's - that I MAKE SURE I pick up. Nana Visitor commented recently that she reads them, and she's really happy with the way they've portrayed and progressed her character.

One more thing does stand out in comparing
DS9 to the Trek shows that appeared afterwards. DS9 had great semi-regulars, actors who were not part of the regular cast, but would show up a couple of times each year or perhaps, once a year: from Andrew Robinson to Wallace Shawn to Louise Fletcher.

"In the Pale Moonlight" is certainly an exceptional piece of work -- I'd never argue otherwise. I just think it was something of an exception.

I thought the Federation/Bajor relationship (as mirrored by Sisko/Kira) was the heart and soul of that show, and by the last season it was usually treated as an afterthought. By the end of the series, it felt like Bajor had about six people on it.

I completely agree that the war opened up some intriguing plotlines -- it's just that in many cases, it also closed some and it most certainly tended to make the characters more shallowly drawn.

(The last two seasons also brought Vic Fontaine, who I never liked even a twentieth as much as Ira Behr clearly did, and Ezri Dax, who would've been a lot more interesting had the focus not been on finding her a date for the prom.)

I hate to think I'm coming off as the anti-DS9 zealot here, because I did quite like the show. Among other things, I think it had the best pilot of any modern Trek, by a country mile, and as others have noted a spectacular ensemble cast.

TWL

DS9 was fantastic, but it's kinda unfair to hold its superb recuurent characters (Garak, Weyoun, Dukat, Zek, Ishka and a ton more) over the ship-based ones like Voyager because the premise of the show meant they could have them. Poor Voyager was restricted from the start, only a hundred odd distressingly standard starfleet/noble maquis-ex-starfleet souls on the ship (despite one being a cardassian spy, and another the horrendously underused homicidal maniac Lon Suder) and always passing through areas and populations. No wonder they never had the scope for the support cast, but of course the very premise of DS9 was what gave it the strength and potential to be so great.

Skii,

I'd partly disagree -- I don't think Voyager's premise was all that restrictive. What turned me off the show was the fact that the writers ran **away** from that premise so quickly as to leave skid marks on the TV screen.

The ideas of (a) two crews with very disparate philosophies having to coexist, and (b) a ship having to keep itself running without the ability to limp back to a starbase every time it gets banged up both struck me as parts of the Trek universe we'd never really explored, and things we could stand to see.

Alas, instead we got a great deal of Generic Trek.

DS9's premise, of course, was suited for some terrific storytelling, despite the initial skepticism that "they won't be going anywhere!" Sheesh.

TWL

DS9 was fantastic, but it's kinda unfair to hold its superb recuurent characters (Garak, Weyoun, Dukat, Zek, Ishka and a ton more) over the ship-based ones like Voyager because the premise of the show meant they could have them. Poor Voyager was restricted from the start, only a hundred odd distressingly standard starfleet/noble maquis-ex-starfleet souls on the ship (despite one being a cardassian spy, and another the horrendously underused homicidal maniac Lon Suder) and always passing through areas and populations.

Oh, no, no, no. You've got it exactly wrong. (And Tim knows what I'm going to say next, because he's heard it so often)

VOYAGER had a SUPERB set up with potentially great characters. Think about it: how do you maintain the Federation's ideals when you're shorn of all the technological support...and you're marooned with folks who stand against you. It was a superb set up for a great supporting cast.

It was totally botched by pedestrian writing that threw away that premise after a handful of episodes and by an esemble of actors (with perhaps one or two exceptions) that were totally not up to the demands of even those lackluster scripts.

I think DS9 was by far the best series. The best acting and plotlines. I personally love religious and political intrigue, and the show weaved both into excellent storytelling. I also loved TNG for the variety of it all. The reason I loved VOYAGER was because it was pure fun. They didn't overplay it and didn't try to become a moral compass for society as much as the other shows did--IMO. For me, it was a great reimaging of LOST IN SPACE, trek style. True, they started pandering to the "I need big breasts to be happy" set. But at least, they made me really care about 7of9's rebirth as a human and becoming a complete individual.

I also am a huge fans of the post-TV DS9 books. Its some of the best writing I've ever had the true pleasure to read in the trek novels. I was pleasantly surporsed to find that the 2 post-TV VOYAGER novels were also well done. They worked in lots of character development, so we continue to see how the crew managed to move forward apart from each other. After all, for 7 years they literally had no normal contact with the worlds of the federation and their loved ones back home--not including the letters they were able to exchange in the latter part of the series.

Daniel

Yeah I can totally see your guys's point. I liked Voyager but it did tend to toe a generic line rather than the wild amorality vs morality etc etc it could quite amazingly settled into. (Course, we are talking about TREK here... :) )

My problem was that some of the characters that could have really shaken things up - like Suder who was, no question, a homicidal maniac - were killed off ASAP because the happy-travelling-starship premise meant they had to be gotten rid of before they made the crew, or audience, think too hard about what it meant to have someone like that as part of their society. Sure, Suder died saving the crew and the ship from the Kazon, but if he'd survived (and he should have! he easily killed all those Kazon dead as doornails, how come one 'corpse' pops up and superflously shoots him in the back?! I demand a recount! Or something) then what would they have done with him? Aside from the distincly unique and not contemporarily relevant Borg-remdemption thing going on there wasn't anything extreme in that department going on. Like there was in DS9. Things like that, and other ambigiuities were shunted aside for more happy, time-travelling, shoot-the-borg plots. Which were cool, but lacking the twist of the better stuff in DS9.

But there was always the Doctor - now he was a great example of Voyager being ingenious. Sad he wasn't one of many possible.

Hey, I may be a bit late, but I still want to make a comment on Angel...

I loved the episode, but one thing irked me when I thought about it...

As far as we know, Buffy still doesn't know that Spike is alive. Earlier in the season, Andrew offered to tell Buffy, but Spike declined. When Angel and Spike went to Rome, Buffy had no idea that they were even there!

As far as Buffy knows, Spike stayed dead after he died closing the hellmouth....I kinda wish Buffy knew what happened //after//...

Vocalyz,
Yes, I decided to pick up the Voyager "Homecoming" novels by Christie Golden. The characters were fleshed out and the story was interesting.
Which shows it was never the premise, it was berman and the hack writers, especially Braga, that were the real problems with the show, and why it was the first "Trek" show i stopped watching (and was painful when i did.

There's only one thing about the Angel finale that I was thinking at the time that no one has mentioned. How much fun do you think Joss Whedon had writing and then seeing the W&H set trashed?

Other than that, I will miss this show quite a bit.

Continuing the Trek digresson:

I vote with those who rank DS9 as the best or at least best-executed of the series.
As for Voyager, I'd argue that its two serious flaws were in world-building and character development.

World-building: nobody seems to have seriously considered the logistics of interstellar economies, trade, and politics in a region of space where warp-drive and transporter/replicator technology is (apparently) a lot scarcer than it is in Federation space. This wasn't handled anywhere close to consistently over the life of the series.

Character development: If you go by Janeway's actions and decisions in the first couple of seasons, you have to wonder how in Hades she got through command track at Starfleet Academy -- she's inconsistent in her handling of Prime Directive issues and has real trouble trusting her command crew and delegating authority. (Only after Jeri Taylor stepped back to "consulting" status did this improve much.)

See, whereas I would argue that Janeway got progressively worse.

Ok, here's a thought as a way to connect Enterprise and Angel:

During a battle within a sphere in the Expanse, Archer and several crew members (as well as MACOs) are somehow briefly transported to modern Los Angeles. Thinking the Fang Gang to be getting attacked from possible time-traveling Xindi, Archer helps them out, curving at least what will be the first major wave of baddies heading the heroes' way.

As the Enterprise crew are being sent back to their timeline, Angel takes a minute to look really at Archer, his face shocked at who he sees.

"Sam? Sam Beckett?"

Another thought: If you can have Seson 8 and beyond DS9 novels, why not the same for Buffy/Angel?

Oh and an interesting (I think) fanfic theory on the Immortal:

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1872721

Since the conversation has turned to "DS9" and "Voyager", let me just add my two cents worth. Of the two, DS9 was by far the better show. Was it perfect? No. It had its flaws, and by the last season, I was only watching it sporadically.

On the other hand, I stopped watching "Voyager" (with the exception of occasional late-night reruns, and the Sulu episode) by the 10th episode (if not earlier).

One of the frustrating things about "Voyager" is that I could see the potential in a particular character-- how he or she could be someone you'd actually want to know if he or she was a real person-- but the writers and producers would never get that; and so the characters never realized that potential. The characters never really became "real", as did those on "Babylon 5", "Buffy", "Angel" and other QUALITY shows, so why bother watching?

I also always thought that "Voyager's" premise was flawed from the start, and in talking with people at the time of the show's debut, would use the following analogy: Imagine that during the battle between the U.S.S. Monitor and the C.S.S. Virginia (nee the Merrimac) in the American Civil War, both vessels are somehow transported to the waters off of Fiji. One ship is damaged beyond repair, the other still seaworthy, but will have to limp home at less than full speed.

Until or unless they get back home, which I imagine would take at least a year, assuming they knew where they were, the war is essentially over for these people. Who in Fiji in 1862 knew or cared about the American Civil War? Probably no one, just as no one in the Delta Quadrant would likely care about the political disagreements between the Federation and the Maquis.

Also, if the surviving crew of the destroyed ship tried to take over the surviving ship, what then? There are still only two real choices: Make a new home where you are, or make the long, slow journey home.

Those two points-- the fact that few, if anyone, in the new territory would care about fighting taking place so far away, and the fact that no matter which crew was in charge, it'd still be a long journey home-- undercut a great deal of the dramatic tension in having these different crews interacting. That's probably one reason stories centering around that conflict were soon dropped, and to all appearances the crew of Voyager was one crew, not an amalgam of two.

Though, if Janeway REALLY wanted them to be one crew, why did the Maquis wear different style pips than Federation officers on their uniforms?

Now, if "Voyager" had been a mini-series rather than an ongoing series, the Federation/Maquis conflict in the Delta Quadrant might have worked, since you couldn't assume that, for example, Janeway would survive just because she's the star. In fact, I recall there was one episode where someone tried to convince the Doctor that he was not a hologram, and was in fact running a holographic simulation program about what would happen if Federation and Marquis personnel had to work in close quarters in stressful situations. THAT could have been an interesting idea for a Trek-related mini-series, a variation of sorts on the Kobayashi Maru tests.

To my way of thinking the "conflict between two disparate groups" type of story only really works if A) they're in a location where people are aware of and have opinions about which side is right in said conflict, and thus get involved in it; B) you're dealing with a short story or a TV mini-series, with no guarantee as to how things will work out; or C) you have a very small group of people, so that the conflict is on a much more personal level. Davidge and the Drac in "Enemy Mine" are stranded on a planet away from the fighting between their species. Their conflict is one-on-one. Janeway's crew Vs. Chakotay's crew? Too many characters to get invested in, especially when there's really nothing for them to fight about out there, and no one out there cares about their fight.

Rick

I think that they still could have milked some tension out of it - if the writers had occasionally remembered that the Maquis *weren't* Starfleet, that they might not be totally reliable in a crisis. Remember, a significant number of them had *dropped out* of Starfleet Academy, or been cashiered from the Fleet itself. What if Janeway and Chakotay had been on some dangerous mission off the ship, a Kazon cruiser had shown up, and the Maquis at the ship's helm had taken it upon himself to flee at warp 9? Then we have the dramatic tension of the captain and her potentially treacherous first officer facing hostile beings, and whoever's in titular command of the Voyager having to overcome the helmsman, and possibly a few of his friends, in order to return and save Our Heroes...

...nah, let's just have 'em endangered by the Holodeck again! (My wife and I could never figure out why they kept running Holodeck programs, when the only two that never went lethally wrong were the Beach and the Pool Hall. Anything else they ran, they were taking their lives, and the ship's safety, into their hands!)

You could not be more right about the bloody holograms!

DS9 hands down was the better of the recent Startrek spinoffs.I tried to watch Voyager but just was never knocked out by anything on the show.Ok i liked the Doctor but everyone else was just so blah.
Sisko,Kira ,and Odo were great as well as the Cardassian Tailor whose name escapes me.It just seems more effort was put into stories as opposed to relying on the Star trek brand to sell the name.
This was the same thing that happened with Angel.Once the ties between shows were broken by the change to UPN i found myself more into the characters on Angel than Buffy,simply cause the storylines were better.Using Angelus to defeat the Beast and Faith to fight Angelus awesome.
The Dominion and the Jemhadar(spelling?),Dr Bashir being genetically enhanced,Odos past,name one thing on Voyager even close to that as far as interesting plot development.
For my money good writing and character development win out everytime.Of course a lot stuff i like gets cancelled so maybe im doing something wrong:)

Well, to bring these two threads together, I can't believe they renewed Enterprise and not angel. Sure wish there were a station out there that would give quality programs a chance. Then we could watch all the shows Sci-Fi canx as well. Not to mention Firefly. There's so little SF or Fantasy on the new schedules for next year. And I'm still mourning Wesley........ (:(

Deano:

1) Garak, former (?) member of the Cardassian secret service, the Obsidian Order.

2) Jem'Hadar, with a subtle glottal stop at the '.

Just to keep things cleared up... :)

I was much angrier at the WB after seeing the Angel finale than I was before it and not because of the title card in the closing credits (they didn't air that here in Canada).

I thought this was not just a great finale to the series, but one of it's best episodes ever. It's filled with great lines and it feels a little rushed (would a two-hour finale have killed anyone?) ever character gets their moment to shine.

(My wife and I could never figure out why they kept running Holodeck programs, when the only two that never went lethally wrong were the Beach and the Pool Hall. Anything else they ran, they were taking their lives, and the ship's safety, into their hands!)

Voyager had such a collection of blah characters and mediocre storylines that were often rehashes of Next Generation plots that I gave up on it pretty early. I kept laughing at how Berman would announce the show's "bold new direction" at the beginning of each season and then I'd tune in to see the same crap they pulled off the year before.

The "trapped on the holodeck" gimmick was tired and overused before the Next Gen ended, so by the time Voyager rolled around, there was nothing new they could've added to it.

When I first saw, "The Big Goodbye," TNG's much lauded first use of the "Trapped on the Holodeck" gimmick, I wondered even then why something like that didn't come with a kill switch as standard equipment. You know, one button you can hit that cuts all power to it, shutting down the program and popping the manual locks on the door.

Seemed like Safety Engineering 101 to me.

Hmm...of course, Angel is immortal...what's to say the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart don't have offices in the future? And that Angel isn't a crewmember (or even officer!) on board a starship? I mean, if you can have Klingon security officers, why not a vampire with a soul in engineering? ;-) Hey, the X_MEN had a very eXcellent (pun intended) crossover with BOTH Picard and Kirks' crew...
Cross-gen speculation aside, anyone that has read either the fine TALES OF THE SLAYER omnibus or the excellent FRAY series , rejoice! Whedon drops hints that "a vampire with a soul" leads the penultimate fight against , well, everything, along with the Slayer of that time, in the end banishing magic from "our" universe...
Just a few random thoughts.
Kudos to Bill Mulligan for agreeing with me on the GODFATHER references.
In case anyone else hasn't seen the Coppola classics in a while (and yeah, I include part 3!), the films always end with Michael Corleone settling loose ends. Lorne was simply "taking care of business". Ruthlessly, I might add.
Must be the Pylean in him...
Poor Eve.

Andrew asked:

would a two-hour finale have killed anyone?

Joss is on record as not being too fond of overlength episodes. I believe he was offered the chance for a two hour finale for BUFFY and passed.

To the best of my memory, the only over-length episodes Joss has done are the two-hour FIREFLY pilot and the extended version of "Once More with Feeling" on BUFFY (which was around 70 minutes with commercials).

On Smallville:

Also, the whole Native American angle is a bit odd. Not that I have a problem with the general concept, just that it seems to be shoehorned in most of the time. I mean, ancient artifacts, prophecies, all added together with everything else...its just "too many notes."

Does anyone have a clear understanding of how all of these elements are supposed to mesh together? I would really appreciate a little clarification.--William

This was a problem for me too; and it was irking me to the point were I wasn't enjoying the series any longer. So, in order to get past it, I had to come up with a working unifying theory that'll either 1-prove to be the only explanation I get on the subject, or 2-be discarded by the shows own explanation (which may, or may not, be equally good).

My theory: Jor-EL is really Gen.Zod, who is stuck in the Phantom Zone and may have been there since the begining of modern civilization. The caves could be a nexus or a gate way between the Phantom Zone and our worlds, or if you follow the Superman Movies, it could be the crash site of the Space Prism that stored their bodies. How does this fit the Native American Angle? Well, as ghosts the Phantom Zone Villains used to be able to move things and influence others. Also, they could have been trapped there way back when the Natives roamed the States, and thus "influenced" their culture "as spirits".

Jor-El's "Come to me Kal-El... [kneel before Zod!]", and Clark's naked body twirling in an S-Shield Phantom Zone prism kind of clinched it for me.

I went like, "yup, Phantom Zone... outside of time, space and reality."

I wouldn't be surprised if next season's opener is about Zod-El inhabiting Clark's body. You know, another variant on the Red Kriptonite formula.

As far as the rest of the episode goes, I enjoyed it, I loved it, and I had a great time!!!

3 hours later I realized it was all an illusion, smoke and mirrors... a tease! And this beautiful lady will never be mine or at the very least, will never be more than what she is.

Case in point, next season I wouldn't be surprised if:

1-Chloe was safely thrown clear by the explosion.

2-Martha never mentions that her lawn spontaneously combusted.

3-Jonathan wakes up and dusts himself off.

4-Lex and Clark become friends again.

5-Lionel beats the rap (or the evidence disappears, or Chloe recants).

6-Clark shows up, only he's possessed by Zod-El, but not to worry as he'll fix it by the end of the episode.

The only "new" development I see is Lex's relationship with Lana; but seeing as how Clark and Lana haven't been together and will never be together, I hardly call that change.

On Angel:

I liked the series (to an extent), and I liked the ending. It's safe to say that Angel slayed the Dragon...

...and the Giant

...and the hordes of Monsters.

And even if there had been a season Six, all that fighting would've still happened OFF CAMERA. Why?

Well, don't ask me why; that's just how it is! Countless series have had Season Finales were the crew is about to face Armageddon, only to have the season premiere pick up after the all the fighting was done! If memory serves me right, the X-Files and DS9 were repeat offenders in this category. I bet if I put my mind to it, I can remember a couple more.

So, if there is another Buffy-verse project, you can bet that both Angel and Spike will be there. Illyria and Gunn are question marks, but they are question marks based on actor's availability and the possibility that their characters may get lost in the shuffle.

One more thing,
What I got out of this series and the series finale was completely different from anyone else.

And that is...

There is no redemption for Angel, and I don't think that any is deserved. The signing away of the Shanzu prophecy was just a formality (to get the point across).

The fact is, Angel doesn't want to be human; he wouldn't know what to do with his life if he were human; and the battle between good and evil will never end, so there's no point in being human.

Plus...

Lorne has blood on his hands because of Angel. And Angel has both Lindsey's blood and Lorne's innocense on his consience as well.

In my mind, Angel did not redeem himself, nor does he deserve it.

I honestly don't care how bankrupt the conscience and moral fiber of america is; a line was crossed.

Angel ordered the cold blooded execution of a human being, and Lorne carried it out. He's no Hero, hell, he didn't even have the guts to do it himself.

And for those readers out there waiting to make the Lindsey/Glory comparison, don't even bother. Lindsey was a human being, Glory was not. Lindsey was redeeming himself by working with Angel, Glory was not. Lindsey had his future read by Lorne, Glory had not.

And even if the argument can be made that Lindsey deserved Capital Punishment, it shoudn't have been at the expense of Lorne's innocence.

And let's not forget that, as Angel, he killed the Truthsayer! (Poor Mo'Dib!)

And all for what? One shining moment were they get to "stick it to the man"? Yeesh! ...and what was the price? Your colleagues' lives?

And the next day, the powers of evil are status quo while you are 2, maybe 3 men down!!!

Meanwhile, nobody thought about opening a portal to another dimension and killing the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart on their turf?

How would you get there, you ask? Well, you have the old Oracle site, and Illyria, and the Graveyard... those would be nice places to start.

Anyways,

I liked this episode. It was a worthy finale for the series. But, it also showed me that Angel was no hero; just a vampire thug with a gimmick. He may live tormented by what he did, but he has never assumed responsibility for it. And I think that being responsible means putting your friends and family before yourself. Sending your friends to certain doom for one "kewl" moment was certainly anything but responsible.

It took me 5 seasons, but after all is said and done, I believe the gypsies (in their infinite wisdom) were right. Just like there is plenty of William the Bloody in Spike, there is also plenty of Angelous in Angel. Let the punishment fit the crime.

I think there's a little bit more to the reason Angel was cancelled - the WB doesn't look at it as having any real potential to grow. And they're probably right. After 5 seasons, the show would have a lot of trouble attracting new viewers.

The WB looks at new shows like baseball teams look at prospects with potential. They see the possibility that their prospeects could get higher ratings than Angel could. And they prefer to try out the prospects instead of giving the more expensive veteran they know the performance level of another chance.

The ratings and demographics of Angel were fine; the WB just didn't believe the show had any growth potential left. And the fact that Fox owned the show and not the WB certainly didn't help. UPN would not have renewed Enterprise if it didn't own the show and didn't need a fourth season for syndication purposes.

redRicky,
Nice observations. Very thought provoking stuff on Angel.
As for "Enterprise", anyone still watching this lame excuse for a "Trek" series - and especially anyone buying merchandise and willing to buy the inevitable DVD - and thereby continuing to supprt the mess Berman and Braga have made of the Trek universe...Well, how can you?
If you really enjoy Trek, everyone needs to quit supporting crap. Then maybe Berman will finally be told to find another purpose in life, the franchise can get a well-deserved and needed break, and when/if Trek does come back it will do so in a fresh and exciting way, and with people who care and are excited by it.

Angel finale repeat tomorrow.

Jerome, a brief glimpse at the history of the Trek franchise tells me that UPN is looking for a valid excuse to cancel the show. The only reason they can't now is that for all its abysmal ratings, it's still one of the highest-rated shows they've got.

However, when NBC was forced against their corporate will to renew "Star Trek" for its third season, they moved the show to Friday nights, figuring its audience would stop watching so they could go out. (Only somewhat true, but between that move and the terrible, terrible stories produced that year, the ratings did drop to the point that NBC could cancel it.) I felt a strong sense of deja-vu when UPN announced that "Enterprise" would be moved to Friday nights at 9pm...

If we stop watching "Enterprise" just because it's not up to the standards of "DS9", or even "TNG", we give the programmers at UPN a chance to throw up their hands and say, "Look, nobody's watching - no one wants to see Trek shows any more!" Think that can't happen? Hop into the Way-Back machine, and listen to some of the movie studio heads back in the '70s, when "Silent Running" silently ran out of the theaters. "Nobody wants to see those silly sci-fi movies any more - they all want buddy movies about rogue detectives!"

Of course, then we finally got "Star Wars", and the studios began falling all over themselves pumping out bad sci-fi flicks...

It is so nice to see that others have the same idea I did when it comes to Smallville. Even though I'm leaning away from the General Zod theory (since Smallville is not allowed to use any other Kryptonians), I was thinking either the Eradicator (because of his strong Krypton as ruler ideas in the comics), or as in the Superman cartoon Brainiac. The other thought I had was possibly Darkseid in an effort to gain control of the most powerful being in the universe. He works even better because he is not Kryptonian related in any way and would thus abide by the producers contract.

The other reason I have problems believing it is Jor-el is because the one torturing Clark doesn't fit the one we have seen in Relic. Yes, he could change and become corrupted because of his experience on Earth, but that drastic a change?

Red Ricky ,dont agree on all your points on Angel but some are thoughts i have had myself.
1.Angel at this point would not what to do as a human and truly does not want humanity.This was kind of mentioned in the Finale.
2.Elements of Angelus in Angel very true ,however when he was still Liam he was not exactly a schoolboy either.
Had not considered the redemption thing ,cant say he doesnt deserve it he has done some good but like all of us he does slip(though his tend to be homicidal in nature)
Which brings up the question what goo does a vamp with a soul really do?If anything I dont think it turns on the morality it makes them closer to their true nature.Spike seemed more insightful and sensitive to things around him ,where Angel was more brooding,and some cases out and out brutal.
Lindsey was not with Angel for Redemption he was just waiting for his chance to seize some form of power.Granted making Lorne kill him was wrong though this goes with along with Angel being true to his nature.Guess i kinda shot down my on argument for him being redeemed huh?Oh well...

Greg Andrew writes: I think there's a little bit more to the reason Angel was cancelled - the WB doesn't look at it as having any real potential to grow. And they're probably right. After 5 seasons, the show would have a lot of trouble attracting new viewers.

Finally, a single paragraph prompts me to do more than just lurk around these parts -- I could not disagree more. With reruns finally airing on TNT, it was the perfect time to pull in new viewers. Those reruns only went to season 3 the first time around, then started over, so who'd jump to season 5 or 6? Currently-available DVDs also go thru S3 only.

[This is my problem with the "save the show" campaigns that evangelized to get ratings up at the end. "Smile Time" made a great stand-alone episode, and even that one required some explanation (at least to my uninitiated but very interested brother, who kept hitting 'pause,' wanting to know more background info. I thought we'd just sit down and have tons of laughs.)]

Had later repeats been timed right on both TNT and the WB, a new fan could have potentially caught up over the summer and segued right into episode 6x01. I think WB execs had choices and there's no convincing me that they made the right one. Having said that, I'll echo others here: what a gut-wrenchingly perfect "ending." - KL

HI! new guy here but big PAD Fan.

I dug the last episode and I am sad to see Spike, Illyria ( fred got on my nerves but illyria was comic gold in a stiff, fish-out-of water kinda way like Worf was on Star Trek:TNG ), Angel and the crew go. The show was really getting into gear and then to be cut off at the knees like that .........it sucks.

But I have a couple of obsevations about the episodes....
1) when signing the Shonshu and giving away his chance to be human, why not just take advantage of the situation and sign it " angelus "
2) I might have missed it but, what was the significance of the baby Spike was sent to get?
3)I almost fell out my chair laughing at the scene where Angel says " one of you here tonight" will betray me and spike raises his hand! then after being ignored by Angel , then says, " well, can I deny you 3 times!" great stuff.

4) Lorne was great!! andy hallet pulled off a great broken spirited performance.
5) and the scene after wesley dies and fred changes to illyria was beautiful ( not to mention badass )

I didn't become a fan till the 4'th season but I really began to dig this show...its shame.
kev

"2) I might have missed it but, what was the significance of the baby Spike was sent to get?"

First, welcome to the monkey house. Enjoy your stay.

Second, in regards to the above, there was an episode several weeks back in which the baby was to be the new spiritual leader of this demon cult. There were problems vis a vis the mother, and Wolfram and Hart represented the demon side. The rest of the Fang Gang wanted to do something that would keep the baby out of the demon cult's hands...but Angel firmly stated that W&H represented the demons and had to serve their interests. It was one of the first big moments of "Angel's completely losing his moral footing" and, as was revealed in the last episode, was merely Angel playing along so as to the convince the Senior Partners that he was tripping over to the Dark Side.

PAD

HELP!!! Is there ANYBODY out there who videotaped the last ANGEL? We had a major lightening storm here, and our power was out, so I was unable to watch or tape it! ARGHHH! Can anybody send me a copy or somthing PLEASE? I will reimburse your shipping efforts. Thanks!

Jonathan (The Other One),
In response to your post (and I hope you get to read it since my response is a few days later):
1.) I would rather NO Trek shows than BAD trek shows, and ones that tend to muck up the continuity to boot

2.) Right now, the message millions of people are sending is: "We'll watch anything as long as it's a "Star Trek" show." This gives Berman and Braga no reason to respect the fans. If they're like sheep, and will even watch a show they don't enjoy, why should they? What incentive is there to improve the quality?

3.) We have been treated to ten combined seasons of dreck (Voyager and Enterprise),in my opinion, because we don't expect the best. There's something wrong when someone I used to watch "Buffy" and "Angel" and the first few episodes of "Enterprise" with complains bitterly EVERY WEEK about Enterprise, yet when I ask him why he doesn't "simply stop watching it then", gets a puzzled expression on his face and says "It's Star Trek".

4.) Paramount knows the franchise is a viable one. If Enterprise fails (PLEASE! PLEASE!) they will not chalk it up to a failure of the Trek franchise. They will blame Berman and Braga, and possibly put the franchise under the direction of someone else who actually cares about it, and who they think will revive it and make it profitable again.

5.) Sometimes a franchise NEEDS a rest before it can flourish again. People looked forward to the first Trek film precisely because they had been without the show for a decade and a half. It's why they even forgave the boring first movie. Indeed, all the Trek that has followed owes a deep debt of gratitude to Ricardo Montalban and those who made Wrath of Khan possible. That was a shining example of how even the mainstream would flock to trek when done right.
But now, we have had Trek series nonstop since 1987, and at least two series and a movie franchise from 1993 to 1999. The quality has slipped, and the only ones still watching are the diehards.
In short, Enterprise NEEDS to DIE. It's the only way the franchise can eventually be reborn and - like a Phoenix - attain even greater heights in the future.

Karen L.,
I TOTALLY AGREE with you regarding the TNT repeats and Angel's possibility for growth as a result.
As an example from another genre, "Law and Order" was an average hit for NBC for six seasons.The thought was it might last a couple more, and that would be that.
Then, A&E started showing reruns at least four different times a day. I had never watched the show, but it was impossible to miss channel surfing.
As a result, I was hooked, and so were millions of others to the point that the show gained millions of viewers like me. Viewership incresed in the 7th, 8th, and (especially) the 9th season. How many shows add millions of viewers in their NINTH season?
Those new fans have made "Law and Order" such a juggernaut that a FOURTH spinoff show debuts this year,the other two are still around and win their time periods, and the parent show looks like a lock to eventually pass "Gunsmoke" as the longest-running prime time drama in TV history.
How's THAT for impressive late growth?

Jerome, that's a nice idea. It really is.

The sad truth is, television is innately inimical to intelligent programming. The Powers That Be in the Bizarro World of Television would FAR prefer to fill those time slots with more "reality" shows, or game shows, or Movies of the Week, or whatever can be made the cheapest in order to sell ad revenue. Good "Trek" is horrendously expensive to make; and if you can sell the ads for just as much money by running, say, "Monday Night Football" or "Fear Factor", what are you going to do? Remember that if you opt for the one that brings in lower profit, you're going to wind up deciding programming order on UHF channel 34 in Sioux Falls, SD.

If we abandon a "Trek" show because we don't feel it measures up to a high standard, the conclusion of UPN isn't going to be, "Well, we'd better improve this show!" It's going to be, "Well, this Star Trek thing has run its course, I guess - where'd we put the rest of those episodes of 'Game Over' we bought?"

Also, I'd disagree with you about the quality of "Enterprise", especially over this past season. They finally convinced me to care what happened to some of the characters - a fact reinforced while watching last night's season finale, when I had thought Bremaga actually had the cojones to kill off Archer, and found myself wondering if Trip could take orders from T'Pol, or if he'd try to seize command... Then I thought to myself, "Wait a minute! This is 'Enterprise'! What happened to the wooden characters, the reheated plots, the cheesy dialog? When did this get *good*?"

Favorite lines in Angel finale:

"can I deny you three times?" - Spike
"You are not unpleasant to my eyes" - Illyria
"I killed all mine" - Illyria (loved this one)
"I wish to do more violence" - Illyria
"wanton folly of me mum..." - Spike
"wanna guess which word you shouldn't have said?" - Angel

Only watched it twice ... I see a third viewing in the near future . I guess one last time & then I'd better stay away from it for awhile. It just makes me too sad and angry that it was canceled. I am hoping for a theater-movie that ties up the stories from both Buffy and Angel characters. Still hoping for the Angel becomes human and lives happily ever after with Buffy ending.

When I watched the finales for The X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I was wistful but satisfied that their runs had come to an end. Not so with Angel. I want to see more.

Whether or not we see any more of our dark avenger (thanks for that one, Cordelia), at least the series ended as it began: Angel fighting the good fight, unrecognized by humanity, in a dark alley.

Dear Mr. David:

Enjoyed your comments about Angel. In some ways it was a good ending, but I really wish that Mr. Whedon could have let Wes and Fred go off into the sunset together (living, that is). Amy Acker really showed her talent in these last past eight episodes. From the episode where Fred was dying, and that had to be some of the most gut-wrenching death scenes ever--full of emotion. Ms. Acker has really had her acting improve.

However, (I'm guessing here), if Mr. Whedon had known they were not going to be renewed, I think he would have trashed the Illeryia storyline, and let Wes and Fred live.

What I think he had planned was that in the sixth year, with Wes living, Illeryia would have become a "big bad" converting back and forth between herself and Fred. In other words, something like the X-Men's Dark Phoenix storyline, with Wes in the Scott Summer role.

Something like that.

Remember Angel had misgivings about her, and I felt that at the right time, Illeryia would have made a grab for some sort of absolute power (it's what dark phoenix's do), there were a few clues in the time bomb episode where she mentions "it's too soon,"

Due to the show's cancellation, and lack of time to resolve the storyline, this was the only way Whedon could think of have Wes and Fred "together."

It would have been fun in the sixth season to have seen this storyline emerge.

By the way, mr. David. I picked up your Spider Man 2 novelization last night. What can I say? I envy your talent of prose, and your ability to get these books written in the time allocated

Sincerely

JThree
carolyn@dia.net

posted by PAD:
"First, welcome to the monkey house. Enjoy your stay."
thanks a bunch!
"Second, in regards to the above, there was an episode several weeks back in which the baby was to be the new spiritual leader of this demon cult. There were problems vis a vis the mother, and Wolfram and Hart represented the demon side. The rest of the Fang Gang wanted to do something that would keep the baby out of the demon cult's hands...but Angel firmly stated that W&H represented the demons and had to serve their interests. It was one of the first big moments of "Angel's completely losing his moral footing" and, as was revealed in the last episode, was merely Angel playing along so as to the convince the Senior Partners that he was tripping over to the Dark Side."

PAD

----thanks again, I missed that episode as well as the german sub, angel vs spike episode. And the one that introduced Jenny Mollens character( the werewolf chick ) . Man, I really dug this season though, Especially "smile time".

kev

Jonathan (The Other One),
Re: Quality Star Trek
Three Words:
Let. It. Go.

Or as Vic Fontaine (who I usually cringe upon seeing or hearing) said to Quark and Bashir when they found out Jadzia was having a baby and said they knew then "their chances" for getting Jadzia were definitely "gone".
"Boys, she's been gone for a while now".

Another new guy. I usually hang around Harlan Ellison's web site, then I was clued into this one, and I like it already.

As for the Angel Finale, it's all been said except for one thing:

One of my favorite lines is, "I *crap* better magic than you."

Chuck

I have decidedly mixed feelings about the series finale of Angel. On the one hand, I thought it was very well done. There were nice bits of humour (Spike’s poetry reading) and touching moments of grief (Wesley and “Fred”) and lots of action (as befits a series going out with a bang). On the other hand, the fact that it ended with a cliffhanger left me disappointed and I found the final situation (Wes dead and the other four facing certain death) rather depressing. Those were my initial feelings but over the past few weeks I’ve had time to think about it some more and have come up with other things that bothered me.

Looking at how the Fang Gang ended up, I found their respective fates to be depressing but consistent with their characters, as when Gunn returned to his roots, helping the people in the streets and killing vampires, and Spike went to a bar and recited the poems for which his human self was nicknamed “William the Bloody.” The fact that Lorne acted as Angel’s personal assassin seemed a bit off but the idea that he would give up fighting for the right made sense, at least after we learned that Angel had put him up to that cold-blooded murder. Wesley’s death was very sad but, considering how he’s been behaving since Fred‘s death, he was clearly someone who felt that he had nothing left to live for, someone for whom death would be a welcome release. As for Illyria, she also suffered her share of heartache, being trapped in an existence which she no longer desired, having unwanted feelings for someone who didn’t want her, being unable to help that person as he lay dying except by pretending to be Fred (the person he really loved) to comfort him and, finally, being overcome by feelings of grief that she could only deal with by doing more violence.

Speaking of Illyria, I have a strong feeling that there was more to her “Fred” impersonation than met the eye. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part but I can’t help hoping that maybe Fred’s soul wasn’t actually destroyed when Illyria’s essence took over her body. Sure, Illyria has Fred’s memories but would that have enabled her to impersonate Fred as perfectly as she did? A person’s behavior is governed by a lot more than just their memories, it’s the personality that’s in charge. I just don’t see how an Old One like Illyria could have behaved exactly as Fred would have if all she had were her memories to guide her. Maybe, instead of being consumed by the fires of Illyria’s resurrection, Fred’s soul was actually subsumed within Illyria’s essence (like the water from a puddle would be subsumed if it were dumped into the water of a pond). After all, the only information we had about Fred’s soul being destroyed came from the WRH doctor. Just because he repeated that info even while being tortured by Spike doesn’t necessarily mean that he was right in the first place. Ah, well, we’ll never know now, will we?

Aside from the fact that the episode ended with our heroes either dead or about to die, there were two aspects of the episode that I found disquieting. One of those was Lindsey’s murder, which bothered me for several reasons. First, Lindsey’s conversation with Eve showed that, even though he and Angel had come to an agreement that they would cooperate to destroy the Circle of the Black Thorns, they both knew that they would be reassessing their positions after the deed was done. Except that Lindsey never had a chance to do any reassessing...because Lorne, acting on Angel’s orders, gunned him down in cold blood. To me, it says something about the character of the “hero” when the bad guy is shown to be more trustworthy.

Second, except for Angel’s desire for vengeance, there was no real reason to kill Lindsey. Sure, Lindsey was rather evil but, when you get right down to it, he was just a lawyer who had learned a few magic tricks. Also, since the Senior Partners were already unhappy with him, his helping Angel to kill off the Black Thorns could only help to ensure his death. Personally, I think that there was absolutely NO chance that he would have been given the opportunity to form a new Black Thorn circle.

Third, Lindsey was, after all, still a human being and the heroes of the Whedonverse have been very reluctant to actually kill human beings, no matter how evil they were. Killing vampires is a good thing (except for those with souls or those who have been sex partners with those ensouled vampires) and butchering demons is also acceptable (unless they turn out to be good) but killing humans has always been a big No-No. Just look at how Buffy reacted when Faith killed the mayor’s aide or how Buffy and the Scoobies tried to stop Willow from killing Warren. Even better, remember how Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn reacted back in season 2 when Angel allowed Darla and Drusilla to eat those WRH lawyers. If it was wrong for Angel to let those lawyers die, surely it was just as wrong for Angel to order Lindsey’s death now?

Fourth, how Angel dealt with Harmony really underscored the fact that he had Lindsey killed for purely personal reasons. Harmony is a soulless vampire who has no compunctions about killing humans for food. The only reason she stopped feeding on humans while at WRH was because she knew she’d be staked if she didn’t. If Angel had really had Lindsey killed to prevent the evil deeds that he could have done in the future, then he certainly should have dusted Harmony as well. Instead, he wrote her a letter of recommendation and allowed her to leave. Does anyone think for a minute that, without WRH overseeing her, Harmony won’t go back to killing humans? And if she does start killing again, isn’t Angel ultimately responsible for the deaths of her victims? Just like he was for the deaths of all the people who Darla and Drusilla killed after he set them on fire and then let them go back in season two?

The second aspect of the episode that bothered me was the “Butch and Sundance” ending, as PAD termed it. Most posters seem to feel that it was somehow a heroic way for the Fang Gang to end up, going down fighting after putting a major crimp in the evil plans of the Senior Partners. I disagree with that on three points. First, I’m not sure that the comparison to Butch and Sundance was entirely accurate. Sure, in both cases the heroes ended up facing overwhelming odds and seemingly-certain death but some consideration should be paid to how they got into those fatal situations. Butch and Sundance were outlaws whose robberies attracted a lot more attention than they had ever expected and they paid the price for getting in over their heads. Angel, on the other hand, actually went out and did something that he knew would provoke that final showdown. Basically, Angel was on a suicide mission from the beginning, he just didn’t tell his friends about it until just before the end. That doesn’t sound too much like Butch and Sundance to me.

Second, Angel’s goal in killing all the Black Thorns just wasn’t worth it. He didn’t have any hope of destroying the machinery set in place by the Senior Partners to bring about the Apocalypse, he just wanted to cause the gears of the machine to slip a bit so as to create one “shining moment” that demonstrated that mortals had free will. I really found such a symbolic “victory” to be rather pointless. Did killing the Black Thorns actually help anybody? As far as I could see, no. Putting aside Wesley’s death and Lindsey’s murder, what about the damage that Angel caused in order to infiltrate and kill the Black Thorns? Well, there’s the demon-senator’s opponent, a seemingly-good person who, with Angel’s consent, was brainwashed into confessing that he was a child molester. Isn’t his life still ruined by Angel’s actions? What about Drogan the Truthsayer, Angel’s fellow Champion, whom he killed in order to prove that he was worthy of joining the Circle? Sure, Angel had no choice but to kill him (once he’d been brought in to serve as Angel’s sacrificial victim) but that situation never would have arisen in the first place if Angel hadn’t been trying to join the Circle. And what about that poor Pee Pee Demon, the one that Angel secretly poisoned so that his blood would then poison the Archduke when he drank of it? Yes, he was a demon but there was no indication that he was actually evil. All in all, a number of people (including some innocents) paid dearly for Angel’s actions and nobody seems to have benefited from it. I admit that there are times when suicide missions are necessary but only if something worthwhile is achieved. And since I don’t think that was true in this case, I feel that Wesley and the others really sacrificed their lives for nothing.

Third, some posters feel that the massive retaliation that the Senior Partners unleashed was proof that the gang had put a major crimp in Evil’s plans. I don’t see it that way at all. I see the Senior Partners’ plans for the Apocalypse like an old-fashioned steam locomotive, chugging along the railway to Hell, with the Black Thorns aboard to keep shoveling the coal. Sure, the Fang Gang killed off the engineers but I have no doubt that they will be quickly replaced. In the meantime, the sheer momentum of the express train to Hell would keep humanity straight on track with very little (if any) decrease in speed. So then, if Angel and his crew didn’t really accomplish much, why did the Senior Partners unleash their army on them? Simply because their defiance, no matter how ineffectual, was also very PUBLIC. Taking out the most powerful single group in the mortal world was such an act of defiance that it virtually demanded a massive response, no matter how minimal the actual damage caused by that act of defiance was.

Finally, we come to the title character himself: Angel, the (first) vampire with a soul. When I first saw him on BUFFY, Angel was a hero fighting to protect the innocent. That heroism carried over into the first season of ANGEL but in the second season Angel took a walk on the dark side. Bitter about his failure to prevent Wolfram and Hart from turning the resurrected-as-a-human Darla back into a vampire, Angel gave up protecting innocents so he could focus on personally seeking vengeance. He allowed Darla and Drusilla to kill twenty or so lawyers, burned (but didn’t kill) Darla and Drusilla when they tried to raise a demon army, and finally traveled to the “home office” in a suicidal attempt to wipe out the Senior Partners. When that quest proved to be hopeless, he had a night of rough sex with Darla and presto, he saw how he had gone wrong and rededicated himself to fighting for the right. That rekindled heroism lasted into the third season, until Conner was kidnapped and taken to Quarthos. In his overwhelming desire to save his son, Angel again put his personal needs over the welfare of others by making a dangerous attempt to open a portal to that hell-dimension. Once again, Angel’s quest ended in failure - as everybody had told him it would - and yet another innocent paid for Angel’s selfishness with his life. In season four, Angel was pretty much in hero mode (except when he was Angelus) during the struggle against the Big Bad, and even in the last season, as head of Wolfram and Hart’s LA branch, Angel really tried to protect the innocents as much as possible. However, in the end Angel once again committed himself (and his friends) to a suicidal attempt to disrupt the plans of the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart to drag humanity into Hell by destroying their prime agents on Earth, the members of the Circle of the Black Thorn. I’m sorry but I just didn’t find Angel’s actions in the final few episodes to be heroic. I think that the gang would have accomplished far more good by remaining alive and continuing to protect innocents on Earth than they did by essentially throwing away their lives on a final mission in which the only victory they could achieve was a symbolic one which helped exactly no one. Of course, if the series had continued, we might have seen that their suicide mission actually DID benefit (some of) mankind but, as it stands now, no such benefit is apparent.

All in all, I found the series finale to be rather depressing since, as my brother put it, “everybody died.” That's not the way I wanted to see a series I liked come to its end.

Don, I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts and comments. And if I may, I would like to add a couple of things.

On Illyria…

It’s been established, in the Buffyverse, that souls can be restored. The analogy of Illyria devouring Fred’s soul reminds me of the Vampire metaphor about a demon taking up residence in your body. I call it a metaphor because I figured that Demons don’t have souls, ergo a soulless human is Demon. Otherwise, I don’t see why Angel or Spike would feel remorse for something a Demon did (as opposed to something they did). I know I wouldn’t.

If Angel, had continued onto to a season 6; I wouldn’t have been surprised if all of a sudden we saw a struggle between Illyria’s two personas.

On Harmony…

I think her scenes were written as comedy relief, just like Lindsey’s were done for shock purposes. And both were shrugged away by the all too popular “Who cares? It’s the last episode!” excuse. Of course, this cajoling is not only out of character, but also indicative of just poor writing. I see it too often in film, and way too often in comics. And let me tell you, it pisses me off to no end when something like this is lauded as new, shocking and unexpected. I mean, if you have Superman decapitate General Zod; of course it’s new, shocking and unexpected! Why? Because it’s totally out of character and we know that Superman would never act like that.

On Angel…

As I said before, I thought he showed poor judgment. If he wanted to get rid of Lindsey, he should have chosen a tougher mission. Maybe have him switch missions with Wes. But then again, if Angel had shown better judgment, the ending wouldn’t have been as shocking (and Wes would be alive.)

In any case, I hate it that he spent 4 years trying to bring Wolfram & Hart down and in the end he was as effective as a gnat.

Finally (and as I've said before) I think that having the curse might not be such a bad thing. Liam/Angel, wasn’t that good of a guy to start with. If anything, these last episodes proved that Angel was no longer helping the helpless or as noble as we thought. He was a man fighting a war, and casualties were acceptable. If there had been a season Six, it wouldn’t have surprised me if Angel and Angelus became less distinct. Plus, since Angel had learn that he could “power up” by drinking the blood Demons (and like beings with innate abilities); it is conceivable that he would actively pursue it in order to fuel his crusade.

Like you, Peter, I found that thank you from the WB people very insulting. After all it was the WB who cancelled the show. Then they do their "nice--nice" hand wave expecting the fans to forgive them. Sorry, but no. Bastards.

Great ending however. Hope to see the characters again.

It was a brilliant episode,poor wesley. I really hate Wb for cancelling this amazing show. Grr why couldn't lorne fight like a man like the rest of them. I really wish it didn't end in a cliffhanger, the ending was left open but i wanted closure.