First of all, this is Peter writing this. My computer line is out, so I'm using Kath's computer and account. (Fixed the attribution -- GH)
Second, not to go all fanboy, but I've been thinking about the Immortal from the recent "Angel." I've developed a theory as to who he is. An individual with genuine historical roots whose personal history has transcended to the mythic. A man supposedly born in the 17th century, but claimed to have been born 300 years before that and, some claimed, was alive back at the time of Jesus. A man who, under an assumed identity, supposedly spent time in a Tibetan monestary. A man who claimed to be an alchemist, to be immortal. Who was said to have an almost magnetic personality and was irresistable to women. Some maintained that he was actually a vampire (which would certainly explain Buffy's interest) and Chelsea Quinn Yarbro has written a series of historical novels with him as her vampire protagonist.
I think the Immortal is the Comte de Saint-Germain.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at May 9, 2004 08:52 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingnot to go all fanboy
too late.
Makes rational sense.
Didn't put too much thought into it. I think the Immortal could have been a great "Q" or Garak type character (or Methos) for Angel. But alas, we'll never know, will we?
Travis
Interestingly enough, I had the same thought. The hints seemed to point towards him . . . although I'm not sure how Chelsea Quinn Yarbro would feel about "sharing" her protagonist!
Comte de Saint-Germain is an historical person that CQY adapted for her book character based on the mystery of this person's past. I saw the episode and no where did they say that he was a vampire. Neither did Peter, he said that if he WAS then it would explain Buffy's interest.
Kath
Born around the 14th century and an alchemist? Sounds like Rimbaldi to me.
I was just making a joke about CQY "sharing" Saint-Germain . . . he's an interesting historical character, I've read a lot about him.
I'm sure you know CQY's written a whole series of novels with him as a character, with time periods ranging from pre-history to the present day. They're actually quite good at mixing fiction with history . . . some people find them rather dry, but I really liked the ones I read.
Yes, if he was a vampire that sure would add another attraction for Ms. Summers, wouldn't it? In addition to all the other traits Spike & Angel discussed. THAT was worth a good laugh. :)
Come to think of it, Saint-Germain would make an interesting addition to the FALLEN ANGEL mythos . . .
Peter:
Not having quite the literary background that you obviously do, I do hereby freely and honestly admit that I have no idea who your suspect is.
But based upon the clues as they were presented, I personally had another suspect in mind.
Although I do not think it is the monestary's most famous student, I was under the impression that it could be someone with ties to that famous literary character who knew "The weed of crime bears bitter fruit." (The Shadow)
Or at the very least, whoever developed the character for Angel derived some inspiration from the pulps.
I was sort of under the impression that the Immortal was a quickly cobbled together plot device to get Angel and Spike to Rome for a rollicking session of humiliation and heart break.
What I also believe to be true is that this forum attracks a very intelligent collection of individuals who, for the most part, engage in a very stimulating conversation not only about the merits of their favorite shows, novels, movies, ect., but sometimes are more capable than the creators of those entertainments at filling in the missing spots.
Well done.
This makes sense.
Hey, I like it. I remember that "In Search Of" (the original, good one, with Leonard Nimoy) about him. Intriguing.
Of course, I have no doubt the "Angel" Powers That Be gave no more thought to his identity than what we got in the episode.
I also have no doubt that if he ever came into the picture again and they used Saint-Germain as the character, they'd say that had been the plan all along.
So I have trust issues....
Did anybody else get the line from Ilona, the CEO of Wolfram & Hart's Rome office?
Spike and Angel show up, start babbling about their troubles, and she cuts in with something along the lines of "You should be more worried about keeping your head."
Anybody else see a sly "Highlander" reference in that, or am I going waaaaay too fanboy here?
I wonder if Joss Wheden is planning to make another show about the St. Germain character. That would be pretty cool! Isn't there supposed documentaition that this man was recorded in France with nearly 80 years apart, and he was identified as the same person, and there is documents that were with the same handwriting, generations apart. I also remember hearing his story kind of inspired the origional Highlander movie too (BTW-did the character ever appear on that show?).
A quick question regarding the proprieties of posting.
While spinning about the internet I found some comments regarding possible TV-movies revolving around one of the primary supporting characters in the Buffyverse. These are reputed to originate from the performer of the role. Now while I would love to post some positive sounding material to this site, I also feel that it is wrong to raise hopes prematurely.
What is the proper way to handle this?
"I think the Immortal is the Comte de Saint-Germain"
Um... who?
"Come to think of it, Saint-Germain would make an interesting addition to the FALLEN ANGEL mythos . . ."
Yes, but if that happens, will vampire hunters be too far behind?
Hey, maybe even a Slayer (male, preferably).
"What is the proper way to handle this?"
Just tell. You can trust us to be appropriately skeptical. ^_^
There was a Saint Germain comic put out in the 90s by Caliber Comics. I'm afraid I don't recall any details, except that I rather enjoyed it...
Probably not St Germain. Rather Joseph Balsamo, aka Cagliostro.
JC
Since I was not quite sure who was PAD talking about I decided to google Comte de Saint Germain.
I found this very interesting link about him.
http://www.crystalinks.com/germain.html
Yeah, it does make sense. He could be "The Immortal".
Johny
I think the head-keeping reference was probably nothing to do with Highlander, but I guess the two worlds could theoretically co-incide if we wanted to get fan-boy on it (and why not!)
Both series have Watchers and I've always thought the idea of Joe Dawson and Rupert Giles in one story would be rather fascinating.
Incidentally, for those who've not yet heard, David Abramowitz (the man at the heart of creating the Highlander TV universe) is currently working on the proposed Highlander mini-series which may go before the cameras in the Fall.
John
Every time his name was brought up, I kept thinking of The Immortal from The Tick, to the extent I kept thinking Ben Edlund must have written this episode.
I was a little dissappointed, to be honest; I kept expecting a big reveal at the end - with the Immortal either played by someone well known (Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt would have been highly amusing, for obvious reasons) or by Joss. I did enjoy the episode though quite a bit.
"I think the head-keeping reference was probably nothing to do with Highlander, but I guess the two worlds could theoretically co-incide if we wanted to get fan-boy on it (and why not!)"
Of course it had nothing to do with Highlander. It was a punny reference to the fact that Spike and Angel had lost the head in a bag and she was trying to remind them that that was where their priorities should lie.
PAD
It may have been a dual-level pun, assuming the Whedonverse includes a movie called "The Highlander", which this nice lady might've seen... :)
Not to show my ignorance but WHO???Geez just when you think you know something some egghead comes along and ruins it:)
As far as folks worrying about being too fanboyish....consider we are spending time debating the background and identity of a fictional character on a show about vampires.Face it ladies and gentlemen we are all varying levels of fanboys(not that there is anything wrong with that)
Need to look this guy up now.By the way for my money i figured the Immortal was an Egyptian or Asian type.Like Ramses the Damned from the Anne Rice books,Apocalypse from the Xmen or Shiwan Khan from the Shadow.Hows that for being a Fan boy??:)
Naw, naw, it can't be St Germain - Mulder and Scully set him on fire, shot him, kicked him out a 50 storey window and buried his skeleton in a box with weights on it before arresting the guy who was meant to go dig him out and putting him in jail for tax fraud.
All can be seen in the exceptional X-files graphic novel "Dead to the World" by Stephan Petrucha & Charles Adlard published in Nov 1996
:) A good read, but I dunno if they sell it in the US, or if its a UK exclusive in that format. "Firebird" is also brilliant, from the same writer & illustrator.
Since Anthony Ainley (The Master on Dr. Who during the 80s), I'll say its his Master that is this 'Immortal.' Hehehe. :)
"I also remember hearing his story kind of inspired the origional Highlander movie too (BTW-did the character ever appear on that show?)."
Hmmm....never ever heard that in all my years of Highlander fandom. Greg Widen has always said he was inspired by a trip to Europe and the museums; seeing all the historical weapons and armor and wondering what it would've been like to use the stuff, and then by extension what it would be like to still be around centuries later. Something along those lines. And Saint-Germain never was named in the series but I won't swear about "Highlander: The Raven." (well, I will swear about it, but not in that manner)
And probably the Comnte de Saint Germain is none other than Longinus (Roar).
"Hmmm....never ever heard that in all my years of Highlander fandom. Greg Widen has always said he was inspired by a trip to Europe and the museums; seeing all the historical weapons and armor and wondering what it would've been like to use the stuff, and then by extension what it would be like to still be around centuries later. Something along those lines."
Well, The Comparison of the names of the owners on Mclouds's buildings lease in the first film is pretty close to the Legend of St. Germain I remember hearing, where someone reported the signiture of the same man who signed a local document, 80 years apart, that had not aged a day, and claimed to indeed be the same man.
its a cool story, heres where to read more...
http://www.alchemylab.com/count_saint_germain.htm
Sadly, the BBC has just announced the death of Anthony Ainley, the fine actor who's interpretation of the Master was always a pleasure to behold.
You know, I thought this episode was so well-written that that it was actually better WITHOUT a Buffy cameo than it would have been WITH one! Also, as someone who's still dealing with an unpleasant breakup, Andrew's "you gotta move on and let her go" speech legitimately struck me as borderline-profound. As for The Immortal's identity, I started thinking about the oldest dude I could think of who's been with hundreds of women and it was suddently crystal clear to me--The Immortal is Larry King!
Peter! Born in the 17th century? So that would make him 400 years old and still alive. Sometimes you can overthink it--which is sad considering I'm just on the "Morgan: Alice, On The Edge Of Night" short story in your STAR TREK: NEW FRONTIER: NO LIMITS (don't you love sf extended titles?) anthology--obviously the Immortal is
Duncan MacLeod.
A centuries old mystery man who could be either good or evil, with a penchant for the ladies.
-- Ken from Chicago
It is reported that the count once told Prince Karl of Hesse, he was the son of Francis Rakoczy II, Prince of Transylvania... that information created alot of additional interest with occultist to combine that info and the other facts that the count was reported to never drink or eat in public, to say the Comte de Saint-Germain was likely a vampire. The fact that Comte de Saint-Germain is reported throughout so many documents in history would definitely lead anyone familiar with the idea of vampires to question if Comte de Saint-Germain might derive his immortality from being a vampire... So I think Angel's true identity could in theory work as the mysterious Comte de Saint-Germain
If you base the theory on Angel's romantic appeal alone, you definitely get my vote... hehe
more info re: Comte de Saint-Germain http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/146_stgermain.shtml