I've been reading with interest on Newsarama.com the travails and frustrations of Micah Wright, whose "Stormwatch: Team Achilles" was canceled (with numbers that were, frankly, not much different from "Fallen Angel.") Which gave me an idea, but I'll get to that later. What struck me the most was that his experiences in boosting readership paralleled my own. He said:
When the monthly book was cancelled a week later, I noticed that a lot of online readers were saying things like "I've never even heard of this book... is it really as good as people here are saying?" That's a bit depressing to hear... that someone's never seen a copy of the book on the shelves of their Local Comic Store? Interestingly, another group of people expressed disappointment because they were following the book exclusively in trades. A third group of people were saying "Damn, I've been seeing the new art team online and I was waiting on that third trade to jump onto the series."
I've talked a lot online about lessons learned from this series... one of them is this: no nine-part story arcs while the book is still young. People whose store didn't carry early issues can't find the first part of the story so they wait for the trade.
Fans never heard of it, retailers didn't stock copies to be seen. Boy, is this familiar. I can assure Micah, though, that the lesson he learned is pretty futile. "Fallen Angel" launched with two done-in-one issues, followed by a four parter, followed by a five parter. Made no difference. People who *found* the first issue said *they* were waiting for the trade.
But speaking of the trade, that's the most intriguing aspect. According to the article, pre-orders are now very brisk on the third trade paperback of S:TA. In fact, fans are acting in concert to order copies. Only problem: The book doesn't actually exist. DC cancelled the trade. So the tactic is of questionable effectiveness.
The trade of "Fallen Angel," however, has not been cancelled. However, the quantity and, even more important, the speed with which the book sells is likely going to determine the future of the series.
If you've already bought the issues and don't want to pick up the TPB in addition, I can totally respect that. If, on the other hand, you want to, so you can give it to a friend or something, hey. Great. Heck, as always, send it to me with a SASE to PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705 and I'll sign it and send it back. And if you're planning to buy the trade anyway... order it now. Bump the numbers up. Spread the word. Get some buzz going. What can it hurt?
Hopefully our esteemed webmaster will put a direct link to it (so you won't have to slog through the astounding number of books, CDs, DVDs etc. that are all called "Fallen Angel.")
Let's see how high the Fallen Angel can fly.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at April 27, 2004 12:47 AM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingWell, I just ordered my copy. If its half as good as I've read, I'll love it.
Already preordered Fallen Angel TPB and ST New Frontier After the Fall from amazon.com. Can't wait to read the continuing adventures of the new frontier crew. I know it's off topic, but could you please give a hint what will happen next?
I own the single issues but I'm planning to buy the trade nontheless. Maybe even two copies.
I already pre-ordered "After the Fall" quite a few weeks ago from Amazon.com, as soon as I found out that it was listed.
I pre-ordered the Fallen Angel collection yesterday, this time from Amazon UK. Living in England, NF is the only exception where I am willing to pay for the additional postage so that I can get the book as soon as possible.
I am hoping the new NF book will sell so well again that there will be a second printing. And I am hoping that the Fallen Angel TPB will not only sell well but get more people to buy future single copies.
I've purchased the individual issues as they came out. I really enjoy the series. I just ordered the TPB. Good luck PAD. I'm looking forward to many more issues.
I already ordered it. Even with the singles, I'm willing to support books that I think deserve a wider audience. Just one question, what is an SASE?
Dom
I ordered it, even though I wasn't going to, have all the single issues through a subscription at my retailer (PLUG for Outer Limits in Waltham, MA), and don't know what I'm going to do with it.
Please, PAD, be careful what you ask for. :-) :-) Your rabid fans could do major damage... Use your powers for good...
Desperately waiting for Tong Lashing to come out in paperback,
-=Alan
Peter,
Did it ever occur to you that the reason the sales are low is because the majority of readers just don't like it? Doesn't seem honest to me to try and force the numbers just to keep the book going if it really doesn't deserve it.
John,
If the majority of readers just don't like it, then this appeal isn't going to do much good anyway. I can't really see the harm in trying -- it's not like anyone's being forced to buy the book, right?
I've already got the issues and don't need the trade, but if I can think if someone who'd be interested in it (and who I haven't already gotten to), rest assured I'll order it.
TWL
Or even better, go pre-order the trade at your local comic shop. This will help encourage your local retailer to order more of the individual issues, and the trades, and is better than supporting the giant of Amazon.com, since Amazon.com doesn't sell individual issues, and trades alone don't keep a series going.
Try using the Comic Shop Locator Service - http://csls.diamondcomics.com/ - if you don't know where a store is.
Cause you know, reward those stores who have spent money, and taken a risk on this title. EVERY SINGLE issue sold was to stores, and on a non-returnable basis (unless I'm wrong and DC newstanded this book). Comic shops took all the risk, reward them with your business, and support your favorite authors at the same time.
Just ordered it. It is a fantastic book, honestly.
"Did it ever occur to you that the reason the sales are low is because the majority of readers just don't like it? Doesn't seem honest to me to try and force the numbers just to keep the book going if it really doesn't deserve it."
No, that hasn't occurred to me, and I'll tell you why:
Based upon the initial orders compared to the total number of people reading comics, the "majority of readers" have never even sampled it. I have retailers who have ordered it who tell me they can't get people to try it. I have readers who want to buy it who tell me retailers haven't ordered it.
Are there people who have given it a fair chance and decided it wasn't their cuppa? Absolutely. And I have no problem with that: Nothing that I write can be all things to all people unless it aspires to be the lowest common denominator. "Fallen Angel" aspires to be the opposite, so some people will fall by the wayside.
But they represent a minority of the readership. So if you think I'm going to roll over because of the attitude of the minority...no. No, I don't think that's happening.
Can the full majority come aboard eventually? I believe so. History proves that some of the most popular TV shows in history had slow starts. If the network executives who made the decision to keep shows like "Cheers" and "Seinfeld" around after unimpressive first seasons had espoused the philosophy you put forward, they'd have both been gone.
Of course, the majority of quality but slow to build shows do get cancelled. So I'd rather be proactive than reactive.
And I've been nothing except honest about all of that from the get so, so frankly, I resent your insinuation.
PAD
[quote]
Did it ever occur to you that the reason the sales are low is because the majority of readers just don't like it? Doesn't seem honest to me to try and force the numbers just to keep the book going if it really doesn't deserve it.
[/quote]
but what if it *does* deserve it? what if it *doesn't* deserve the lack of attention/publicity that other books get just because they have today's hot artist working on it? or a guest appearance by today's hot character(s)?
Because FA is not a 'mainstream' book (ie no Superman/Batman/etc guest appearances and no Jim Lee artwork), it doesn't get ordered as much by retailers...so it doesn't get the shelf space it (arguably) deserves. So you go into your comics shop to pick up your weekly batch of books, and totally overlook the 2 copies sitting amid the hundreds of copies of Superman/Batman or Teen Titans or Outsiders (etc).
For those of us who enjoy the series...we show our support of it by buying it each month. If we enjoy the book (which logic suggests we do, since we continue to buy it), we don't want to see it cancelled. So for the most part, we're willing to buy the trade (or an extra copy of the trade) to demonstrate our support.
Who gets hurt? DC won't suddenly up the print run by hundreds of thousands. At the very least, they'll keep it the same. In which case those of us who enjoy the book get to keep reading it. DC gets to continue selling a title. PAD gets to keep collecting a king's ransom of a paycheck . Who loses?
If, on the other hand, we don't 'force the numbers', DC has a cancellation on their hands, a relatively small but loyal following of the book lose out on getting to read it, and PAD has to go on welfare for losing Fallen Angel money.
It's not about cheating anybody. It's just about supporting something you believe in.
I don't think anybody's suggesting that you buy the book if you don't like it. The suggestion is to buy it if you want to see it continue...OR to buy it if you've never read it before...maybe you'll find that you want to add it to your monthly order :)
< /$0.02 >
um...there was a little < g > in the original post after the "king's ransom of a paycheck" statement.
yes, yes it was supposed to be a funny.
Just out of curiousity: Will the trade have any extras?
I'll provide the first "status" report: Last night the Fallen Angel trade's Amazon Sales Rank was over 1.6 million, as of 12:15PM EST 4-27-04 it is 4,584. Hopefully, it'll be able to hold this level of a ranking for a significant period of time.
I hear a lot of comic creators (and PAD in particular) complain about how some readers wait to pick up a trade instead of buying each, indivudual issue when it hits the stands...but I think this is a pretty unfair complaint. Comic books are just too damn expensive to buy unless they're really great.
No, three bucks may not seem like a lot, but when every title is three bucks and they keep coming out every week, sacrifices have to be made. Personally, I don't even buy trades because they're too expensive as well, but I can definitely understand the motivation behind picking up a trade instead of the actual issues. It's just more cost-effective.
I think comic-creators have to begin to think more like the movie industry. With the market the way it is...and prices ever going up...most books (like most films) are going to tank. That's just the way it is. It's not something to be happy about...but unless huge changes are made from within, there's nothing readers can do to stop the downward spiral of the industry or the demise of certain titles.
So what I'm saying...I think...is stop blaming readers, everybody. It's not our fault the industry sucks.
And, as I said earlier, I'll be happy to see Fallen Angel go since you'll maybe go back to writing a book I don't find boring.
Okay, folks. If nothing else, let's get the numbers up and make sure "Fallen Angel" has a long, healthy life just to piss off this guy.
PAD
I'm looking forward to the trade and hoping it does well. Unfortunately, I missed the first 6 issues having no clue about the series existance. Thanks to the advice of a friend, however, I dove in with the seventh and have been monthly since.
"I'm looking forward to the trade and hoping it does well. Unfortunately, I missed the first 6 issues having no clue about the series existance. Thanks to the advice of a friend, however, I dove in with the seventh and have been monthly since."
See? That's *exactly* what I'm talking about. The majority of potential readers out there *still* don't know the book even exists. The only way to get the word out is stuff like this, and then hope that the numbers reflect the increasing interest.
PAD
I knew people who had never heard of Fallen Angel before I let them read a copy of mine.
I seriously think that the lack of promotion from the top(DC & Marvel) is what really hurts these books. Why does DC promote Batman or C&B on JLA...aren't these books going to sell anyways? Go to Marvel.com and the first images you see are Ultimate Spider-Man...what gives?
Promote the books that need the help and let your top sellers promote themselves.
I tend not to buy trades of books I already own, due to the limits of space rather than cash. I tend to ask the following questions before picking up (or ordering) a trade that collects stuff I've already read (with answers of "yes" making me more likely to buy the trade):
Where does Fallen Angel fall on this list? Well, after looking at all the questions and their answers, I'm not going to order the trade for myself. But I have been recommending it to people who are looking to get into new titles.
I apologize, I know it does not involve this specific entry, but I was curious if anyone knows when I new book from the ST: New Frontier series is coming out? Thanks for the help!
Tabor
It seems that most of the people who post here would claim to be fans of comic books in general and more specifically of PAD. If you are into comics and want to find the things you will like and want to keep the creators whose work you enjoy employed, shouldn't you spend a little effort looking to see what it out there?
I have to go 45 miles to the nearest comics speciality store for my comics. I make sure to go the week of each month that the Previews comes out. Even if your shop finds it necessary to charge the cover price for the catalogue, it is still worth it to see what is coming out. I go through it several times to make sure I've found the things I might be interested in. And then I turn my order in to the shop so that they have it in time to order the things I want. When I decide its time to drop something, I pick it up through the last one ordered on my behalf. We're in a partnership with the store. Most stores can't afford to be stuck with extras.
Can't get ahold of Previews? Pick up Wizard or subscribe to CBG.
"Okay, folks. If nothing else, let's get the numbers up and make sure "Fallen Angel" has a long, healthy life just to piss off this guy."
I'm not gonna be pissed...just chagrinned to see you writing a series that, frankly, hasn't lived up to your talents.
Doesn't sound like a compliment...but I meant it as one.
What can I say? I'm a jerk.
Just got a bit of a shock: Chapters/Indigo Online doesn't have the Fallen Angel TPB listed. Their bricks+mortar stores carry some of the DC and Vertigo trades, but this isn't listed with them yet.
What's up with that?
Yours,
Dwight
Good news, bad news thing going on here.
Good news: I've been buying the book since issue #1, have enjoyed it, and I anticipate that I'll continue to buy it.
Bad news: I'm afraid that means I'm not going to be buying the TPB. Comics already take up more money than I'm really comfortable spending, so I only buy trades that contain material that I missed the first time around. As a consolation, I'm still sticking to my guns on buying books on a monthly basis as opposed to collecting TPBs. Even though it's usually more costly, it's the part that I can do to support the books I like. I wouldn't like to wait six months between installments anyway.
I also occasionally share the books with friends of mine, but they're in worse financial shape than me, so I don't think I'm bringing in any new sales, there.
Peter I tried the first four issues and really couldn't get into it. Heck, I gave my issues to a friend and he's hooked... Perhaps I'll try it again... Does the first 8 issues answers the set up issues of #1-4? I'll do my part by purchasing all the issues I can...
James
Speaking of TPBs, I'm wondering whether it would be a better idea for comic publishers, instead of publishing monthly comics on some questionable titles might not be better served to release these six part mini-series as paperbacks only in the first place.
Anyone know what the industry position on such an idea might be?
"Speaking of TPBs, I'm wondering whether it would be a better idea for comic publishers, instead of publishing monthly comics on some questionable titles might not be better served to release these six part mini-series as paperbacks only in the first place."
It's coming. The current comic industry can't continue to sustain itself for very many more years. I predict a shift to near total TPB type publishing (in bookstores primarity, which means the death of the direct market) or an online subscription for eBook type downloadable comics or something of that nature by the end of the decade.
I've been trying to pimp this book hard at my local store, as I know most of the other people who go in there on a regular basis, and I'm friends with the owner. I've made a couple of converts, mostly those people who I talk to in there on Wednesdays. I know one guy who read the first few issues and just didn't like it. But for a town with only on store that serves a 150 mile radius, we have four or five people who actualy read it. I know that the owner is ordering a copy of the trade for anybody who hasn't picked it up, because he is a fan of it when he gets a chance to read it.
Well, I order the Fallen Angel monthly and I've already placed the order for the trade (even before reading this blog entry).
I enjoy the book a great deal and I want to support it as much as I am able.
Thank you Mr. David (and thanks DC for publishing it!)
David
I walked into a comic shop recently and was just getting a general feel for what comics are available these days, since I hadn't bought one in 2.5 years.
The guy working there asks me what writers I like. I must admit, I've never tried that approach - I generally like a few characters and stick with those characters. Which means I mostly read just Wolverine, X-Men, and other assorted X-titles.
It may be part of the reason I haven't tried Fallen Angel yet. Or it may be that I haven't picked up a DC title at all since the Death of Superman.
I can't say that Captain Marvel, a character I'd never read a story from before, would be my cup of tea either.
We've had this discussion before, on monthlies vs trades, but I'm pretty strictly a monthlies kind of guy.
I really hate how every time I pick up a comic, it's "Part X of 6", because they either stretch or force a story into those six issues so they can dump another TPB onto the shelves.
I do wonder if a general problem of the industry is saturation - too many comics from too many companies.
Wolverine and a bunch of other Marvel titles are twice per month. Is this really necessary? Atleast these comics are generally a little cheaper than the standard fare ($2.25 vs $2.99), but as costs keep going up, it will force the companies to take less risks.
And, quite frankly, putting out a TPB of stories that didn't see monthly print would be a risk.
Ok, another comic topic, so another post. :)
Ebook style comics. Can it be done?
Well, I'd say yes, especially as costs continue to rise. You might find that online subscriptions, before long, might be the only way to get some titles like Fallen Angel, which aren't "mainstream".
One thing I'd love to see is for Marvel to take the next step with that collection cd. The one with the 10 comics per series from Hulk, X-Men, etc. It was 100 comics total.
I avoided it, mostly on the fact that I don't want to pay for issues of stuff I don't read.
But. Should Marvel take the next step, and make, say, the first 100 or 200 issues of X-Men available on cd, I think it could work.
It's a way that I, as a reader, can still enjoy these great stories without having to pay a small fortune to read.
I mean, I collect what I buy, but I can't afford to go out of my way to pay for some 30-odd year old book. I'm more interested in having the opportunity to read them.
Ebook-style comics are not only possible, they're out there. I'm not going to give instructions how to get them; I do have some, but they exist to back up my paper collection.
But I would love to stop buying paper comics and start buying ebook comics. I've had it with bad retailers, fighting with gamers over back-issue bin under their Warhammer setups, obnoxious cashiers, etc. Let me buy the books at home in piece. Plus, instead of storing 250 books in a huge long box, I can store everything on a small external drive. Sign me up!
(plug plug plug - As an aside, other than the ebook thing, if you're tired of your retailer, why not try mailordercomics.com? Hey, I got my issues of Fallen Angel...why not get yours? plug plug plug)
And, quite frankly, putting out a TPB of stories that didn't see monthly print would be a risk.
======
Sure. Look how badly that Maus TP sold, or that Sandman: Book of Dreams. Or manga. I mean nobody buys that, right?
Oh wait- you mean Maus and Sandman made the NYTimes best-seller list? And manga dominates graphic novel sales?
Hmmm...yeah, that's a risk. :)
Okay, I'm kidding, but seriously, how much of a risk is it at this point? Fallen Angel is 10K readers, that's all. What are you risking- that it'll go to 9? It might go to 9 all by itself.
The monthly pamphlet market is DEADLY lately. VERY few books break the downward cycle after issue 1, and they usually require a special event to do it. Think that will make this title any better? Replace the artist with a hot artist (are there any hot artists left? just curious...)? New cover artist (Stelfreeze has been amazing...)? New writer? (THAT'S not gonna happen...)
The only way that the book is going to thrive is if more people start buying it. Push the TP. Give it to your friends. Force people at gunpoint to buy it. Give a free collectible Fall Angel pack of smokes with every issue. I dunno...but something has to be done.
I rarely buy individual comics anymore. I used to have a box at my local shop that I picked up weekly, but I just don't have the time anymore. Now I almost exclusively read the trades. Obviously I'm not the only one. Maybe DC and Marvel need to notice this trend and plan accordingly, because I don't see my buying habits changing any time soon.
One Sunday morning many, many years ago, I was listening to a radio show discussing Classical music. (Hey, I'm not just a comics geek) Somebody called in and, sounding just like a 70s rock & roll burnout, said, "Hey, if it's not rock & roll, it's just not music."
Translated to comics: "Hey, if it's not a super-hero comic book, it's just not a comic book."
Sadly, this is the mind set for too many people these days. This is why the industry is in the shape it is. It is also one of the reasons that CrossGen has struggled.
It's difficult for any book that is 'different' to find an audience. I have been reading Fallen Angel from issue one. I enjoy it, but can't seen to get anybody else reading it. I'm going to order one copy of the trade and pass it around to see if I can help build an audience.
Comics are too expensive, you say? That depends on your viewpoint. I buy $20-30 worth of comics every week. I read them over several days. That's pretty cheap entertainment. How do I decide which ones to buy? That's made simpler by using a couple guidelines. If a comic costs more than $3, I seldom buy it. If it's from Marvel, I seldom but it. I buy Amazing Spider-Man and Captain Marvel; and CM has been cancelled. Why do I buy so few Marvel comics? Because they have lost their identity. They created the Ultimate universe to appeal to youngsters, yet include Ultimates, which isn't for youngsters. They created the Max universe to publish Alias, then folded the storyline back into the regular universe. They moved a few books to the Marvel Knights line so as to get more money per issue and now they have moved most of their titles to MK to get even more money. What ever happened to just putting out good comics? They re-created Epic, then shut it down, stillborn. Now they have Icon, but only for a select few. Marvel has gone schizo. So 15 minutes ago.
At the store I work at, I do a "Employee Favorites" shelf-talker (a thing to go on the shelf next to or behind the book in question) on all the books I like that don't get a lot of buzz/sales. "Fallen Angel" is one of those books (along with "Queen & Country," "Walking Dead," "Arrowsmith," and "Gotham Central"). We just ordered some copies of the trade, and I thoroughly plan and forcing them on people, as well as bundling up the first couple issues we have in a discount priced package to get people interested (#1 - 3, I believe, as we have stock on those, and I want to only collect the initial "done in one" issues).
And yes, to reiterate, go pester your retailer about it. If they don't want to help you, shame on them, but give them the opportunity. let us shower one another in mutual admiration and money...
Well, it seems to be working. I just ordered my copy from Amazon and, as of 7 p.m. EST Tuesday, you're in the low 900s. Who knows, maybe this will let the brass actually take notice of the book and give it some more pub.
I preordered the trade. I buy one or two issues of a series to see is I'll like it. Creators I trust, like PAD, I just wait for the trades. I know this wait for trades mentality is frustrating for companies and creators but thats just how life is. I f it ain't trade, I ain't buyin'
Economics, I don't buy novels hardcovers either. too expensive. I can wait a few months for the softcover. 3 bucks for 9 minutes of entertainment is just too much. The format is not worth it anymore.
I've been meaning to pick it up for the longest time (and now this tpb seems like the best chance) but frankly i'm afraid to. It always seems like the books i enjoy end up getting cancelled, and I've been following this site for a while now and i see the Passion that Peter has for this book so i didn't want to Jinx it.
twisted Logic I know but it's the only kind I got....
Just a few comments:
Some books DO sell a lot more in trade than in monthly form. I think the key point here is getting a book to trade AND having it sell in trade format.
A few publishers have a good trade/no monthly program. Funny...most of those books are not superhero books.
It could be that being a DC book hurts FALLEN ANGEL (with the provisio that Vertigo is not seen as a DC book). Marketing of the book has to reach out of the superhero channels and audience.
**And, quite frankly, putting out a TPB of stories that didn't see monthly print would be a risk.
======
Sure. Look how badly that Maus TP sold, or that Sandman: Book of Dreams. Or manga. I mean nobody buys that, right?**
Most of the things you're listing there were originally serialized.
**Maus** was serialized in **Raw**, and it was only based on the reaction that the material got there that got a mainstream publisher to publish a collection.
Manga is generally serialized first. The costs of offering manga in the U.S. are highly underwritten by the serialization of the original material in Japan. The costs of translating the work are far less than it would cost to provide similar new material.
And while that particular Sandman book was not serialized material, it was made to appear a reasonable risk by the long track record of Sandman TPB collections.
"Great. Heck, as always, send it to me with a SASE to PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705 and I'll sign it and send it back. "
Uh...I admit I am slow but does this mean for some of us who haven't had the chance to meet you in person to get autographs we can send one of your books SASE and you'll sign it - not just FA?
The trade has been ordered. :)
But I do have to agree with the others about electronic versions of comics. I'd be willing to buy individual versions of comics electronically; but for print ones, frankly, I need the durability and smaller size of a trade.
Most of the things you're listing there were originally serialized.
=========
Yeah, I know, Nat. But they weren't serialized monthly, and the manga wasn't serialized monthly in the US, so I technically win that argument. :)
Seriously, I do think there can be a market for graphic novels that aren't first published monthly. Look at Blankets. I'm not saying it's the route for every work, but it's not an impossible task.
Ebook-style comics are not only possible, they're out there.
How about mostly legal versions? :)
Seriously, I do think there can be a market for graphic novels that aren't first published monthly
Perhaps, I just don't think the comic book market is strong enough right now though.
And if we're going to have a serious discussion about this, can we not include manga/anime stuff? :)
I really don't see what the popularity is of it beyond a select few things.
The same old song -- it's the retailers' fault.
Some retailers are good, some less so. Some retailers will carry title 'X,' others won't. That's the way it is. Get over it.
With virtually no promotion (or even attampts at promotion) for most titles, what does anyone expect?
How many creators have a link to CSLS on their site? Or a listing, state by state, of comics shops that carry their books?
Why, in the name of all that is holy, aren't people shown paging through comics on Smallville? Or on Real World?
The marketing and the push nowadays has to come from all sources in order to be noticed above the general ad, promo and hype clutter in the consumer marketplace, and cannot and should not be dumped just on the shoulders of beleaguered and financially-strapped retailers.
Will stop before the old blood pressure rises any further.
Perhaps, I just don't think the comic book market is strong enough right now though.
Comic book market is not equivalent to the superhero market or the direct market.
And if we're going to have a serious discussion about this, can we not include manga/anime stuff? :)
You mean the stuff that sells tons more than the US books? You don't think there's some lessons to be learned here? (like....while direct market fans may ignore black and white boos, other readers aren as picky? Or a thick book for a reasonable price will sell quite well? Or a vast company wide, highly interlocked continuity is not necessary for sales)
"The marketing and the push nowadays has to come from all sources in order to be noticed above the general ad, promo and hype clutter in the consumer marketplace, and cannot and should not be dumped just on the shoulders of beleaguered and financially-strapped retailers. Will stop before the old blood pressure rises any further."
That's probably best, since you're behaving like an ass.
Discussion on this thread has covered any number of challenges in succeeding in today's marketplace, with much of the emphasis being placed on audience resistence to titles that are new and different. Yes, sometimes retailers screw the pooch, but just as often retailers try to push a title and fans don't want to know from it because it's not standard superhero fare. Plus the initial impetus for the thread is derived precisely from trying to push "Fallen Angel" in and through other sources. To come away from reading all that and saying that retailers are being blamed for the market's woes indicates that you cherry picked the negatives. Which tells me that, probably, you either work in a comic book store or for the White House.
PAD
I'm kinda proud that I got a lot of people to pick up the book - mostly because of my constant "promotion" over on Talk@Newsarama. This book is so great that I just know that most people are going to like it - if they give it a chance. And a chance is all I ask for. I think it's sad that international sales don't make a difference for diamond, because I live in Germany and I'd like to give out issues in "real life", too. (I already did and everyone liked it enough to wanting to buy the trade.)
I'll make the trade my staff recommendation at B&N.
You mean the stuff that sells tons more than the US books? You don't think there's some lessons to be learned here?
I think you're comparing apples and oranges.
The manga and anime books sold, imo, is a direct result of the slew of garbage anime that's thrown on tv.
Whatever anybody shows, whether it's Pokemon or DBZ and beyond, people are sucking it up.
And unless I'm missing some sales numbers, this isn't the case with your run of the mill comic book, super hero or otherwise.
PAD,
As I stated in an earlier post, I tried the first few issues of "Fallen Angel" and it was not my cup of tea. however, seeing how passionate you are about it has made me decide to give it another shot.
Having said that, here are a few questions/suggestions on how to help "Fallen Angel" (and other books you may write) succeed:
1.) Do you know if, despite the "mature" material, if the trade will be made available to libraries? Because if it is I would encourage everyone - starting with yourself - to, first thing, ask your local library (at least one, I will try several) if they can order it.
As President of my local library's Friends group (funraising/events arm) in Philly (I've temporarily moved away, but am still on top of things), it amazes me how many trades they get. Of course, these are usually of characters the librarian is likely to know - Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. But if you articulately present your desire for them to get a copy and assure them that it is quality stuff that OLDER readers will enjoy, i can practically guarantee you they'll order it for you. And it won't cost YOU a dime!
Please let me know. There is a big meeting about Philly's libraries in May, and it's quite possible I could get all 53 Philly branches to order a copy apiece, especially since you're a former Temple student.
If everyone else posting who wants to save Fallen Angel could do the same thing by contacting their local librarian and/or their local Friends group and convincing them to get a copy for the library, well, imagine how many copies that would be! And, again, it wouldn't come out of your pocket, but the library's budget of Frinds group's budget!
2.) Have you thought about doing a massive PAD book signing tour? I'm serious. I don't remember there being too many book signings at the individual stores in Philly. But personal contact is always best. It creates an event, causes "buzz" and allows readers to say "Fallen Angel? What's that? I don't know, but Peter David's going to be here, cool!"
Then, when they ask the retailer, even if they don't come to the signing, they're made aware of the book.
You could say you'll do a signing - where you'll sign anything - for any retailer who orders 100 copies of Fallen Angel (you'll obviously have to let the retailers have a bit of lead time). One weekend, it could be Philly on Friday, Allentown on Saturday, and Scranton on Sunday. I think Michael Turner did a similar self-promotion for one of his self-published books, and he gave the retailers who reached the 100-order plateau an exclusive piece of art. maybe you can do something like that as well.
I think such a tour could be really successful. No one else can sell or market you like you can sell or market yourself.
If you think the idea has merit, let me know. I know a couple retailers who would be particularly receptive to such an idea.
That's All For Now, and Good Luck.
Jerome
Peter,
Y'know, there's no reason to get all defensive and bitchy. I was just asking a question. I obviously wasn't aware of your concerns about distribution and promotion of the book. You could have just explained that without being an asshole about it.
"Y'know, there's no reason to get all defensive and bitchy. I was just asking a question. I obviously wasn't aware of your concerns about distribution and promotion of the book. You could have just explained that without being an asshole about it."
Number one, I was being straightforward and honest. Number two, if you think that was defensive and bitchy, then you don't know from defensive and bitchy and I suggest you could check out some postings on just about any political thread. Number three, I'm trying to foster and encourage sales and the only thing you could think of to do was try and throw water on that. And number four, since you accused me of being dishonest and are now trying to act like a wounded party, I'd say you get to wear the Brown A all by yourself, okay?
PAD
If you don't mind me chiming in, I was thinking that what might help Fallen Angel is a webpage or website dedicated to Fallen Angel, that people could go to for background information, discussions, and possibly even minor spoilers for upcoming issues.
I only just started reading Fallen Angel recently and noticed that the comic makes a lot of references to relationships and events that have taken place in the past. While I understand that it's a literary device, I must admit that I found it a bit distracting.
You might consider creating a webpage off of this website, summarizing characters and past issues. If anything, it'll give readers something to do to get more involved in the story.
Just an idea,
Scott
I think you're comparing apples and oranges.
The manga and anime books sold, imo, is a direct result of the slew of garbage anime that's thrown on tv.
Whatever anybody shows, whether it's Pokemon or DBZ and beyond, people are sucking it up.
You are not correct. What sells for manga is a wide variety of material, from romantic comedies to sports books to almost everything that the Big Two is not selling (though I note that much of it is akin to the trade books that smaller publishers ARE selling...and selling quite well). Much of it is not related at all to what's being shown on TV. And much of it is being sold to people entirely outside the audience that usually buys in the direct market (like...um...women).
I really think you need to inform yourself on what's going on, and not make such uninformed statements.
By the way....
Don't judge even the manga versions by the anime. For example, I find the Dragonball Z books to be much more tightly written than the anime, and are on a par with the better US superhero books.
[i]you get to wear the Brown A all by yourself[/i]
would make Hester Prynne almost proud of her scarlet one, I would think :)
[i]You might consider creating a webpage[/i]
hmm...Peter, I know you've got Glenn around for these things, but if the concensus is that this might help, I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it (probably not the best verbiage to use in a post that references the Brown A). could likely churn something out over the weekend.
The fact that I don't know how to italicize text notwithstanding of course...
What sells for manga is a wide variety of material, from romantic comedies to sports books to almost everything that the Big Two is not selling (though I note that much of it is akin to the trade books that smaller publishers ARE selling...and selling quite well). Much of it is not related at all to what's being shown on TV.
An illustrative example: of ICv2's top 25 manga for Q1 2004 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/4721.html), only 6 are related to properties shown generally on TV. (I don't count the Anime Network here, since at the moment that's on-demand.)
PAD,
If you have a opinion on my ideas, please let me know. I may be meeting someone from the library tonight.
Thanks
I like the website idea. The Rex Mundi website is half the reason I checked that book out. I think Fallen Angel could benefit in very much the same way. As could any other PAD project. Here's a link to the Rex Mundi site to get an idea of how cool a site could be: www.rexmundi.net
Making #1 available free on the web could go a long way as well. That's the other half of the reason I bought Rex Mundi and it's why I get Invincible too. Two awesome reads I wouldn't have known about or given a chance otherwise.
only 6 are related to properties shown generally on TV
Well, last I checked, 6 out of 25, while not a majority, is still "alot".
The point being made, however, is that the stuff on tv DOES influence the sales of the rest of it.
The argument should probably also include how accessible manga and anime is compared to your average comic book.
The local Sam Goody has a rack of manga books sitting nearby the anime dvd section (oddly enough, the adult dvd section is in betweeen).
I don't see a single comic book, trade or otherwise, in the store.
Well, last I checked, 6 out of 25, while not a majority, is still "alot". The point being made, however, is that the stuff on tv DOES influence the sales of the rest of it.
No, it doesn't. This is smaller than the ratio of media SF to written SF available on the racks. You're not going to argue that media SF is influencing the sales of non-media SF, are you? I think it has more to do with the quality of the work itself.
The argument should probably also include how accessible manga and anime is compared to your average comic book.
Yes and no. "yes" in that wider distribution helps in sales. And knowing how to get better distribution is a good thing, no matter what. "No" in that sales of manga is just simply good, no matter where you area; when you compare sales of manga vs. US books in the same outlet, manga is better.
The point being...why exclude manga from any discussion of improving sales? It has a lot of lessons and things to learn from.
"It has a lot of lessons and things to learn from."
Lesson 1: Adult readers will not shy away from complex characters, complex storylines, and heroes who aren't always "heroic" (cf the kid in Initial D - can't remember his name).
Lesson 2: It's okay to have adult characters act like adults - with mature reactions to situations, and with what are euphemistically described as "adult situations".
Lesson 3: Teenagers who are exposed to nudity will often experience nosebleeds. (Not too sure about that one - I don't remember it myself - but, whatever...)
The argument should probably also include how accessible manga and anime is compared to your average comic book. The local Sam Goody has a rack of manga books sitting nearby the anime dvd section (oddly enough, the adult dvd section is in betweeen). I don't see a single comic book, trade or otherwise, in the store.
Supposing we grant your point that manga only sells because of TV exposure. (I agree that it influences it, but it's not the only factor...and 24% is not "alot," and not just because "alot" isn't a word.)
How many recognizable comics properties are on TV and in the movies? X-Men, Spider-Man, Justice League, Superman, Batman, Teen Titans...surely people would buy those because they saw them on TV, right?
So your Sam Goody anecdote demonstrates that manga are relevant to a discussion of comics sales...because why isn't Sam Goody stocking comics? There's demonstrably a lesson to be learned from the success of manga, even if it's only "comic companies should be trying to sell their stuff at Sam Goody."
Jerome,
Why don't you do a story for it in the Daily News?
If Peter is a Temple guy, then you have that Philly connection right there.
Introduce the readers to the character and talk mainly about the TPB as being a great jumping on point for new readers.
I only heard about "Fallen Angel" because I was a rabid "Supergirl" devotee and it was pretty strongly promoted among the other SG fans...but yeah, I never really see ads for it. Stupid marketing execs.
I'm doing my part by making sure Mike my Comic Pimp (http://www.grahamcrackers.com) orders many many copies of the book, and I've actually gotten about a dozen other Graham Crackers regulars to follow it. So see, word-of-mouth DOES work. Obviously decent marketing would work better, but even so. Tell your friends, buy them copies to hook 'em, and buy the trade even if you have all the issues, 'cause dollars talk.
George,
I've pitched the idea, but right now my editors are unsure.
In the past month alone, I've done stories on Hellboy, Punisher, Bill Plympton and Avi Arad/ upcoming Marvel movies and an interview with Kyle Baker/release of "The Truth" TPB (which was of particular interest due to our very high black population and readership).
My editor just did a story on DC's Fraction, since the guy doing it has Philly ties, and the book is obviously not something the average reader is going to know about - like "Fallen Angel".
Additionally, I have also pitched and am trying to fight for the folllowing, which are almost sure to be greenlit:
Stories on Spider-Man comics to coincide with the movie, an interview with Joss Whedon on X-Men and the future of the Slayer-verse; and an interview with Eliza Dushku (who is coming to Philly for WizardWorld. WooHoo!).
That's quite a bit for a general interest newspaper. there are also a couple of other things that are being mulled over.
Ironically, I had the go-ahead to do a story on the Spoiler-Becomes-Robin thing, but DC refused to give me any info because they felt such story would be false advertising, since the change was not going to be long-lasting. Wich realy ticked one of my editors off.
Finally, I did 2 stories on PAD last year to coincide when the Hulk came out. One was a PAD interview, the other was a Top 11 list of Best Hulk Stories Ever, with PAD capturing 8 spots!
So there's the Big Obstacles To Overcome"
There are higher profile stories that may be of more interest to the general public, and as far as helping people with local ties, they are more likely to want to help someone new.
Which is why I think a comic book-signing tour would help tremendously. It creates an "event", puts the spotlight on local businesses, generates quotes from fans, the retailers, and of course the writer himself. I can almost guarantee if PAD were to hit a few Philly stores on a "Fallen Angel" promotional tour, then a story would be greenlit for the Daily News. Same thing applies for a visit to Allentown and "The Morning Call" and a visit to Scranton and "The Scranton Times".
It just helps a lot.
I have all the sympathy in the world for you guys trying to get your comics noticed and trying to keep them from being cancelled, but... I'M NOT MADE OF MONEY! Trades are cheaper for me than single issues, and, sorry, if following a series leads to its cancellation, then so be it. I don't like how the "waiting for the trade" people are being characterized. We're trying to save a buck! We're not rich! Suck it up!
How many recognizable comics properties are on TV and in the movies? X-Men, Spider-Man, Justice League, Superman, Batman, Teen Titans...surely people would buy those because they saw them on TV, right?
And consistently, what are some of the best selling titles in comics?
I think this will all come to a point of saturation anyways. Comic sales aren't what they used to be, yet there are still far too many titles out there to even attempt to keep track of (imo).
The manga will go through it also. It's the hottest thing on the market, but eventually people will get tired of it.
Craig,
I don't think "saturation" is the problem. marvel was publishing 140 titles a month in the woo-hoo '90s. Not to mention all the Inage and Valiant titles. Granted, this was during a speculative era. But the fact that so fewer titles are still struggling is a sign - to me - of deeper problems.
Many people do not even realize that comics still exist. Those that do look at them as kid stuff for the most part. And the lack of local newstands and mom and pos really hurts. The newstand where i got my first few Hulks that got me interested in comics is now closed. There are few comic shops, and they cater to people who are already fans.
It's a big, industry-wide problem. We are simply not getting many younger fans or just new fans.
My big thing is that too many people are focussing on content as a problem in comics, when I think it's the distribution structure that keeps sales lows and acts as a depressant.
In a lot of ways, the direct market works against sales growth. The outlets are constrained, it's biases towards fans (and works against casual and impulse buyers), and it aims to older teen and adult males, to the exclusion of other audience segments. Yet adopting the mantra of "newstand distribution" and " lower prices" is no answer; one reason the direct market grew to power is that the newstand distributors left comics because the prices were TOO LOW.
That's why the growth in manga is so important in my eyes. They've established a market AND a format that can be exploited by American publishers....AND they're selling to segments that are new to American publishers.
First time poster....I'm buying the trade because I can't buy the monthly. I'm 120 miles (!) from the nearest comic book store. So I'll do my part through Amazon.
I'm looking forward to reading it.
Don,
120 miles! See, this highlights the problem I was thinking of earlier.
There was a rumor going around that Barnes and Noble was going to open a string of comic stores soon.
Heavens, I hope it's true. We need people to have greater accessibility to comics, and for those comics to be pushed.
"Discussion on this thread has covered any number of challenges in succeeding in today's marketplace, with much of the
emphasis being placed on audience resistence to titles that are new and different. Yes, sometimes retailers screw the pooch, but
just as often retailers try to push a title and fans don't want to know from it because it's not standard superhero fare. Plus the
initial impetus for the thread is derived precisely from trying to push "Fallen Angel" in and through other sources. To come away
from reading all that and saying that retailers are being blamed for the market's woes indicates that you cherry picked the
negatives. Which tells me that, probably, you either work in a comic book store or for the White House."
Not to get into anything too heavy, but the quote used in the original post was a part of a total of 3 out of 9 paragraphs therein related to, directly or peripherally, the topic of retailers. That's not cherry-picking, that's responding to a topic discussed in relevant portions of the original post. The implication is also there that it is necessary to push the TPB through other sources due to the failings of (some) retailers.
Call me names if you must (I've been called much worse), but please do get off your high horse for a moment or two and take notice that each and every reader may take something different as the emphasis of any post.
And yes, I am a retailer, and have been for a quarter-century.
While I may well be alone in this (though doubt it), but after that time, the most financially viable course I've found is that it is not my job to just promote YOUR book, but to promote ALL books. With the glut of titles out there today, if a publisher stands behind a title enough to do something to push it, that is a guideline I can use to give a little extra push as well. I note that DC did little or nothing to promote the 'Dangerous Curves' line -- if they are not willing to put their full faith and credit behind those titles, then I must take that into account.
And we DO carry Fallen Angel, and have never, ever, sold out of an issue, and have them all still available. I chose not to respond one way or another to the TPB part of the original post -- not responding to that part does not imply disagreement or agreement, it just means that wasn't addressed in my reply. If a customer wants the TPB, they are, of course, welcome to purchase it. I hope you sell thousands of 'em, but must be realistic about the state of the market (more specifically, my local market).
There's a new "Fallen Angel Appreciation Thread" over on talk@newsarama. ;)
"While I may well be alone in this (though doubt it), but after that time, the most financially viable course I've found is that it is not my job to just promote YOUR book, but to promote ALL books. With the glut of titles out there today, if a publisher stands behind a title enough to do something to push it, that is a guideline I can use to give a little extra push as well. I note that DC did little or nothing to promote the 'Dangerous Curves' line -- if they are not willing to put their full faith and credit behind those titles, then I must take that into account."
I would think that the quality titles that are underpromoted by publishers would be the ones that are most in need of more retailer promotion. The Jim Lee Superman book will get comparatively ridiculous amounts of promotion everywhere, whereas something like Arrowsmith or Wildcats could benefit more from even the tiniest attention.
-Ralf
Jerome Maida
"There was a rumor going around that Barnes and Noble was going to open a string of comic stores soon.
Heavens, I hope it's true. We need people to have greater accessibility to comics, and for those comics to be pushed."
Heavens, I hope it's *not* because I like working for a store that's not part of a large multinational corporation. While yes, more comic shops = good makes sense, if these are chain stores backed by a large company which can use it's weight to get bigger discounts from publishers (which chain bookstores, most notably B&N have done in the past) and thus undercut existing small retailers and drive them out of business, I'm not at all for it. Yes, it's great that stores like B&N are carrying trades and it helps keep industry profile high, a line of specific comic stores owned by them would be a disaster. What if one of the big two publishers threw all their weight behind that kind of deal, cutting exclusive deals with them for products and discounts? What happens to the independent stores that have tried to support the industry for years? Most small bookstores can't compete with a chain because they don't have the capital or backing to afford to markdown every book 20%, 30% or 40%. Last time I checked Amazon still hasn't turned a profit. How can small store compete against a company that can sell without having to worry about profit?
Lemme sum up...more comic stores is good, but more independently owned stores featuring a full, diverse line of product for all ages and tastes is best, and the only way to have a healthy, sustainable industry.
Thacher,
I understand your point. I really do, and i hope you and your store continued success. The reason I made my statement is for the simple reason that I feel many stores are already struggling, and in many cases, it's their own fault.
Look, I love the industry. I always try to give local stores pub. I am known as the "comic book guy" for the Philadelphia Daily News. But I know of no other industry where the retailers (in general, mind you) have such defeatist attitudes about the industry as a whole, still have a "clubhouse" instead of business mentality and openly bash product they don't personally like. I actually had one ridicule me for picking up "Emma Frost".
As another example, there is one famous privately-owned store that actually had five stores in Philly less than ten years ago. Now they are down to two. Visit them during Free Comic Book Day and you'll understand why. Instead of going all out and making a push to attract new readers, customers go in and ask about Free Comic Book Day, and are pointed to a table with stacks of them. Then the customers find out they have to spend $10 minimum to get their "free" comic!
Contrast that to the most successful store in Philly, which spent MONTHS promoting it and made it a day-long party.
Stores like the latter will always survive due to loyal customers they have worked hard to maintain.
But when there's tons of cities that don't even have comic stores, that's a major problem.
Do I wish tons of independently owned comic stores would start popping up across the country? Absolutely.
Do I realistically expect it to happen?
No.
If business were booming, I could see being afraid that a "corporate chain" would take away a huge part of the pie. But right now the pie is so small and shrinking, SOMETHING must be done to enlarge it.
Also, the benefit of a "corporate" store is they would actually be more interested in actually seklling comics than bad-mouthing Chuck Austen, PAD, Christopher Priest, Joe Q, or whoever else they personally don't like.
That's all.
Jerome,
Which exactly is the most famous store in Philly? And which has the $10 minimum on FCBD? I wanna know so I can avoid the latter. And if the former isn't already getting some of my business, I would like to start. Thanks.
Brian,
The successful store I was talking about is Atomic City/Showcase Comics on South Street. Those guys are really cool. They give out comics at movie premieres, donate a lot to libraries and stuff, and just a lot of other cool things that not only are fun, but good business for them in the long run. In fact, Marvel launched "The Truth" there.
I'd rather not name the store that's gouging people, since I have yet to catch them in the act. Let's just say it's in Center City. That kind of narrows it down. I have heard complaints from over 10 people two years running now. But I haven't caught them in the act (I think they recognize me as a writer) yet, and neither has another store that heard about what they were doing.
If you get to Atomic City, say hi to Martin and Mike for me:)
Yeah I've been to Atomic City before. Its been awhile though. The only Center City place I've been to is Fat Jack's and I've seen them giving the Superman 10cent Adventure comic away for free, can't imagine they'd gouge people on FCBD. The place I regularly go to is Brave New Worlds in Jenkintown. Top notch place all around. I went to FCBD2 there and they didn't care how many books ya got, all they said was "try not to be greedy." In other words, don't grab a whole stack of the same comic so that they'd have enough for everyone.
Brian,
Yeah, Brave New Worlds sounds cool. Atomic City is the same way. They will let you take a bunch, as long as they are different and they don't think you're hoarding a bunch.
In fact, when I got some stuff for FCBD to give to my local library, not only did they give me the leftover free stuff, but they gave me regular issues of Supergirl, Spider-Girl, Peter Parker, Daredevil and many others. Their whole deal is to be good to their current customers while ALWAYS looking for new ones. This is something I wish more stores would do.
Showcase in Bryn Mawr is pretty cool as well. The owner donates a bit as well.
Possibly the worst is Comics and More at King of Prussia Mall. I remember asking if they had any leftover copies of "The Call" and "411", the latter of which I loved, for our big library Open House. The guy said he couldn't because things were tight. The next week, Isaw issues of "411" on sale for a DOLLAR each! He'd rather take sell them at a loss than donate them, get a tax write-off, and possibly attract new customers! It is that kind of inane thinking, that is, in my opinion, killing the industry.
PAD,
Are you going to be at WizardWorld Philly in three weeks? Because if you are, it would make a story on you and Fallen Angel a more saleable pitch if you are going to be in town, especially since it looks like we'll be doing a WizardWorld package.
Also, please let me know about the other ideas I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thanks.
Posted by Peter David at April 27, 2004 02:00 PM
The majority of potential readers out there *still* don't know the book even exists.
Hello Peter,
With Previews Magazine and the Internet, how is it possible that a book published by a mainstream publisher can go 'under the radar'?
I am aware that there is a portion of the customer base that are 'walk ins' and will buy what is only on the store shelf but I would consider them to be a small minority. I'd venture to say that 90% of the folks who buy their comics from a comic bookstore already know what they want and are going to get. The reason being that they have browsed the Internet or skimmed through Previews.
If not, then this leads to Micah Wright's comment; ''I'm about an inch from giving up to the idea that other than about 50 good stores, the Direct Market is a cultural wasteland catering to the juvenile power fantasies of a dying breed of 40 year old geeks.''
Actually, I don't know from Previews, and I have no idea how to find info on new comics on the Net (the publisher's websites are a poor joke, IMO). Usually, the way I find out if I'm going to like a title is, I leaf through an issue and see what I can see about the characters, writing, artwork, and general feel.
Sadly, there are precious few comics stores that permit their customers to browse. They tend to keep the comics locked into mylar bags, and woe betide the simpleton who tries to find out anything about the book besides its title and cover art! Thus, unless it were commended to my attention by a thoughtful sales clerk, I would be unlikely to pick up "Fallen Angel", "Stormwatch: Achilles", or in fact any title that didn't seem a sure thing.
Jonathan (the Other One),
Most of the stores you go to don't let you browse? And even have the new releases in mylar? My goodness! Where do you live? As much problems as I've had with many local retailers in Philly and Scranton, not a one wouldn't at least let customers browse!
Jerome,
The Showcase Comics in Granite Run Mall is also top notch. If they don't have a book you're looking for, they'll call around to their other locations to see if they have it and if they do they'll send it to that shop and they'll call you when it arrives. Speaking of which, I still gotta pick up my Phantom #2...
There was once a Comics and More by Roosevelt Mall, don't know if they're connected to the one at King of Prussia, but I don't remember them ever being very helpful. I only started going to them when my favorite shop ComiCards closed down and I didn't know of anywhere else to go.
As for PAD at WW Philly, as of right now, his name's not on the Guest List.
I won't be at the Wizard convention. Wizard doesn't invite me to their conventions. I'm not sure why, but it just doesn't happen. The only reason I was at the Philly one last year was because I called and asked them. Otherwise I guess I'm just not important enough for them.
As for how comics can fly under the radar: Easy. The general rule of thumb is that, if you're pushing a new product, the potential customer has to have ten to fifteen "exposures" (or "impressions" must be made) before it makes any sort of real dent in the customer's consciousness. The books which sell well are the books that have ad upon ad upon ad out there.
"Fallen Angel" was the subject of a Newsarama article and a single Previews write-up. It was also featured in a flier that DC put out once. No ads in comics. No ads in CBG or magazines. Zero coverage in "Wizard." That means the average comic fan had a maximum--MAXIMUM--of three exposures to it. That doesn't even begin to cut through the signal-to-noise ratio. With three, four, five issues out, people would say, "Fallen Angel? What's that?" Whether it's believable or not, it's true.
PAD
I am aware that there is a portion of the customer base that are 'walk ins' and will buy what is only on the store shelf but I would consider them to be a small minority. I'd venture to say that 90% of the folks who buy their comics from a comic bookstore already know what they want and are going to get.
Ack. I think that's a sign of a sick industry. You HAVE to have a fair chunk of your audience be casual or impulse buyer, particularly for low cost items like comics
Well PAD, you may not want to follow Micah Wright's ideas anymore, given the latest revelations.
Oh, and there seems to be a rumor going around that you're saying people should SWITCH their orders from their comic shop to Amazon. I don't see you saying anything of the sort, but I thought I'd give you a heads-up.
In any event, I've bought the singles, but I'm trying not to get too attached to any series anymore given the short life-spans involved. I'd be sad to see FA go, but there will be other PAD comics.
Posted by Jonathan (the other one) at May 2, 2004 01:36 PM
Actually, I don't know from Previews, and I have no idea how to find info on new comics on the Net (the publisher's websites are a poor joke, IMO). Usually, the way I find out if I'm going to like a title is, I leaf through an issue and see what I can see about the characters, writing, artwork, and general feel.
Hello Jonathan,
I would suggest the following web sites if you want to get some decent info on upcoming books instead of the hyped up ads you find on the publishers' web sites;
http://www.previewsreview.com/
http://www.comicsworthreading.com/previews/index.html
Hope this helps
Posted by Matt Adler at May 3, 2004 01:46 AM
Well PAD, you may not want to follow Micah Wright's ideas anymore, given the latest revelations.
You mean that bit from the Washington Post?
Geez, he admitted as such before on his forum. Anyway, it doesn't discredit what he has to say about the industry or take away anything from his writing.
Bottom line, I just find it hilarious that he lied about being a Ranger.
Brian, it's becoming very clear from other sources that Wright posted his admission in his forum because he knew the Washington Post story was about to appear. The Post notified his book publisher beforehand.
Er, I'm not sure if you know the full story, but there's nothing "hilarious" about it.
He not only lied about being a Ranger, he also fabricated a whole career, including supposedly participating in the invasion of Panama to capture Noriega. He claimed to have witnessed his "fellow" Rangers committing atrocities, and that this brought him to his current political views because he had seen the "truth". He regularly lambasted anyone who disagreed with his views (usually with obscene language) using the old "I was in it, how dare you argue with me" routine.
He used these and other lies to sell his book and advance his career. And he only posted his "apology" hours before the Washington Post was set to post their story (they'd gotten proof of his lies and confronted him). He then falsely claimed that he had revealed it unprompted, supposedly because his conscience had gotten to him, and he also claimed that he'd only lied in the first place to protect himself from death threats over "propaganda posters" he'd created (another lie, he'd been making these claims long before the posters).
If you're still unconvinced that this guy is a lowlife, I suggest you check out the following links:
His original "apology" (which he later heavily altered when people pointed out the lies within it):
http://jimtreacher.com/ranger.htm
An account of Micah by his ex-girlfriend who was with him during the years in question:
http://www.thespoonsexperience.com/archives/002152.php
And further info from Jim Treacher's blog:
>>I am aware that there is a portion of the customer base that are 'walk ins' and will buy what is only on the store shelf but I would consider them to be a small minority. I'd venture to say that 90% of the folks who buy their comics from a comic bookstore already know what they want and are going to get.
From both a comic store employee and a consumer point of view, I've found that much of this depends on disposable income. Although there is an inherent obssessive-compulsive mindset in a huge percentage of comic readers, those with the money will often ask or take retailors up on recommendations and suggestions.
Not that this is the only factor involved in decision-making, because many people never move out of the "superhero" reader phase. Not a good or bad thing, but a reality.
Both of the above consumers can be approached by retailors and be given recommendations.... unfortunately, there are lots of retailors out there who have never moved beyond the afforementioned superhero reader mindset.
Fred
That means the average comic fan had a maximum--MAXIMUM--of three exposures to it.
You know, it's too bad you just can't take the next issue of Fallen Angel and have Mile High Comics do an online preview of it.
They've done recent full online previews of Daredevil: Father #1, Ultimate X-Men #46, and Venom vs Carnage #1.
And they're getting something in the range of like 20,000 people reading through the comics.
That's a rather impressive figure.
Unfortunately, as one of the recent newsletters stated, DC will not do this. And man are they shooting themselves in the foot for it.
PAD,
It is a shame you are not coming to Philly for WizardWorld. It was really fun meeting you and talking to you last year. It is really unfortunate. While I can understand your feeling slighted - you definitely should be one of the people they contact - I just feel showing up would enable you to help push Fallen Angel by interacting with fans.
In fact, I remember being shocked last year when the creator of Green Lantern was there, and I found out he had to buy a ticket and his own table! If thst can happen to him, you definitely shouldn't feel like the Lone Ranger.
Again, since you seem so passionate about keeping the title alive, I would just like to help you in any way I can.
While I still feel a "signing tour" would be cool and the most direct way to promote the book, there is also a possibility I may be doing a story on female heroes, possibly as part of the Wizard package and to tie-in with Michael Turner. I can definitely include "Fallen Angel" in that story if it indeed comes to pass.
PAD,
Have you been able to check if the trade will be made available to libraries, like Wonder Woman and many others are? because like I said, I would do my best to see if I can get all of our branches to carry it. Also, that means everybody reading this could request their own local library purchase it. That's a LOT of potential sales, and even more people who would be made aware of the book and get achance to read it.
Thanks,
Jerome
Posted by Matt Adler at May 3, 2004 03:48 AM
Er, I'm not sure if you know the full story, but there's nothing "hilarious" about it.
Wow! You're right, I had no idea that he went to such lengths.
I wouldn't go so far as to call him a lowlife but I'd certainly categorize him as disturbingly interesting. Talk about @#$%ed up...
Brian,
I WOULD go so far as to call him a lowlife, because that's what he IS.
Jerome
I'm a long-time comicbook collector (since 1981) and like some others here, I have also never read Previews. Nor do I go to websites to find out what's up and coming in the comics world. Instead, I learn about new series from reading CBG, from this blog, and from browsing the shelves in the store I go to.
I've also picked up a series-- such as "Bone"-- after reading library copies of the trade paperback compilations. I'd actually gotten the first issue of that series, but hadn't continued to buy, either because of budget limitations, because I thought it was just a funny animal series, or both. But after reading several issues in the trade, I started buying the issues as they came out, and sought out back issues as well.
I've only known about CBG for about eight years now, and have shared a subscription with a co-worker (who doesn't read current comics, his interest is the Golden Age) for about seven. Prior to learning about that source of information, my primary means of finding out about new series was word of mouth from friends at school or work, or in the case of school, a teacher who also collected comicbooks, DC's old, free, "Direct Currents" flyers, and house ads.
In fact, I think one of the reasons I've read more DC books than Marvel books is because DC's "Direct Currents" was free, while Marvel's "Marvel Age" cost the same as a regular comic. I couldn't see any reason to spend money that could have gone to an actual comic on what was essentially advertising. What's more, since I was reading more DC than Marvel, I was, naturally, seeing more DC house ads, which brought to my attention still more DC books.
I understand DC now has a modern version of their "Direct Currents" on their website, which is fine, I suppose, for those who visit the DC website regularly (I don't). Of course, it doesn't help those people who don't have computers and/or Internet access find out about upcoming books.
I will say this for Marvel, though. Their "What If...?" series let me have an idea of what was happening in the Marvel universe. It was through "What If...?" that I learned there had been something called the Kree-Skrull war and Spider-Man's clone (the first time, when he died at the end; not the 1990s storyline, when he called himself Ben Riley).
At this point in my life, I read only a handful of titles, "Fallen Angel" being among them. With "Bone" ending with the next issue, I will be reading one less title. I have not yet decided if something else will take its place. I'm still considering whether to add "El Cazador" to my list. I've read the first few issues, but haven't yet been having them held. That was one I learned about through CBG initially, and had the information reinforced by a house ad in issues of "Ruse", which I also first learned about in CBG.
I don't recall ever seeing a house ad for "Fallen Angel", and if I hadn't been reading this blog or "Supergirl" (which I picked up because of the discussion of that series on the blog), I might not have been aware of the series. I don't recall if CBG did a review of it or not, but even if they did, that wouldn't guarantee I'd remember the name of the series while at my comic shop ("Ruse" first caught my interest through a CBG review, but it took me a while to find it, because I couldn't recall the title and the shop owner wasn't familiar with the description). So, I agree that it can be easy for a title to fall through the cracks.
Would I have picked up "Fallen Angel" if my only exposure to it was a review in CBG? Maybe. Maybe not. But if I didn't read CBG at all (and for many years I didn't even know it existed), chances are I wouldn't have even noticed "Fallen Angel" in the first place. Heck, if not for ads in CBG and occasional mentions in this blog, I'd never have known about "Soulseachers and Company", which I understand has been around for many years (I still have yet to actually see a copy of said book, but at least I know it exists).
So, in summation, I don't think anyone can assume that because Prieviews exists or because a title might get a review or discussion online somewhere, that every potential reader is going to know about it. At the very least a publisher should run house ads for the series they publish, ideally in the pages of other titles of a similar nature. That could be a bit tricky with "Fallen Angel", which is neither Vertigo or mainstream DC, but my suggestion would be to run "Fallen Angel" house ads in the Vertigo books and the "Batman" books (the latter because, on the surface, Lee appears to have a similar attitude to Batman's, and an ad in a "Batman" book might get people to sample "Fallen Angel"). Maybe they'd stay with it, and maybe they wouldn't, but at least they'd know about it.
Rick
Interesting, thanks for the info. I confess that I've moved over to TPB almost exclusively since I don't have time to keep up with individual issues anymore. I often wonder if this trend (I know others that feel the same) actually ends up hurting the chances for our favorite series to survive.
I'm developing an idea based on a screenplay I've written for comic form but if the great Peter David can have problems with sales what chance do us cross-over writers have? Other than Straczynski or K. Smith of course.
PAD,
Just out of curiousity, why haven't you addressed any of the other posters' ideas about spreading the word on Fallen Angel? It seems like you're willing to respond to those that disagree with you, but not to those that not only agree with you, but want to help you.
Just seems to me that it would be more productive to address whether or not those ideas are feasible rather than trying to convince some guy that some people still haven't heard of the book.
Brian Thomer