Everytime I see that word, all I can hear is the exchange in "Mystery Men." You know: "We've always been each other's greatest nemesisi...nemesises...neme..." "Nemeses."
So anyway, just came back from "ST:N." Thing is, I keep hearing that folks went to see it with lots of expectations and came away disappointed. Consequently, I went into it with no expectations and lots of negative buzz in my ear, and came away pretty much satisfied by it. Yes, there were elements of "Wrath of Khan" in the second half. Then again, "WOK" was an open rehash of "Moby Dick," so I didn't have much problem with that. And there was lots of stuff I did like, including Riker finally getting to kick some butt, the performances of Ron Perlman and Tom Hardy, and the way all the regulars fit into their Trek personas like comfortable shoes.
And I *thought* I spotted Wesley Crusher at screen left during the wedding toast.
Personally, the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident...I wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at January 7, 2003 01:04 AM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingAs one person I know said....the worst of Star Trek is still better than a lot of stuff out there.
I've always wanted to see some X-rated Trek too. Oh, those weren't the adventures of Troi and Riker you were referring to?
It was wes there on the left. He even had a speaking part at one point but it was cut before the final version. I went in with the same negitive reports and and was enjoyed it. Not the best st film but much better then insurection.
Spoiler below
I kidna wish they had gone throug hwith the kahn ending, it would have wrapped up tng nicley.
I can't really picture Picard shouting, "SHINZONNNNN!!!" into a communicator. Riker, yes. Picard, no. *g*
Definitely nothing wrong with Nemesis.
I think at this point the fans are too busy chanting for Berman and Piller's heads to really enjoy anything that they come up with anymore.
But its definitely the "too many cooks" scenario with Trek. Cause not only do we have Berman and Piller running the franchise, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner are getting too much clout and making sure every A & B plot of the movies revolve round them.
Forgetting that the every ST series generally works because they make sure EVERYONE gets a turn at the A plot.
There's a simple way to do that in the movies. TOS got it right with Voyage Home. And all TNG ever had to do was have Q kidnap the main crew and send them off on their own adventure and everyone would have a moment.
Right now they've got a great setup for Trek 11 with Riker and crew on the Titan. And I am utterly convinced Frakes did that great fight scene with Perleman as a thank you for directing the last two movies. Plus he grew the beard back, the real reason Insurrection flopped. :-)
With Spiner and Stewart not in the next one, a need for them to command the storyline isn't there so it should give others plenty to do. Specially if any Voyager or DS9 members join the crew.
I think "Insurrection" was the BEST of the TNG movies. As I'm forced to justify my decision with every movie-goer that's seen both films, let me just skip ahead and say why here.
"Insurrection" has "the big themes" that Star Trek built it's house on. What does "Nemesis" have in that regard? ST9 dealt with disenfranchisement, forced relocation, ethnic cleansing...ST10 hinted about such things but it was really more about action.
Therefore, "Nemesis" is a much better movie for general audiences in my view, but "Insurrection" is a much better STAR TREK film.
I havent typed a single word about Nemesis since I saw it opening weekend.
honestly, ten seconds into the credits my cell phone rang. I turned it off embarrassed that i was inconsiderate enough to have left it on.
after that i couldn't get into the film. I think that actually says alot about it. it felt like the story took place in about a day
it was not the large adventure that any action film should be. star trek or not.
I mean the whole story was
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they go to romulus, find out shinzon is bad guy, get chased down. the end.
I dont think i really expected too much. just a story that left me feeling like i got the whole story.
I liked all the crew-relationship scenes though
-THE BARON
As a very casual Trek fan (caught a lot of Next Generation, some DS9 and about an episode of Voyager) I had to say that while it dragged in places NEMESIS was a very satisfying film. If this is, in fact, the last NEXT GEN film it wrapped things up nicely. There was a lot of "action" Picard, the death of the beloved character was played out nicely with you guessing who it would be and the red herrings left along the way and the wedding scene was a real treat.
And, as much as my fiance gave me the "what in the name of God is wrong with you" look, Dina Meyer made a very sexy Romulan, if such a thing is possible.
I had forgotten that line form Mystery Men, and now wonder if Buffy was referrring to it in "Conversations With Dead People."
From waht I've heeard, that was indeed Wil Wheaton, and apparently he did get to say something (and maybe tell us why he was in uniform) in scenes now lurking in a DVD-making shop somewhere.
I'd also love to see the further adventures of Mrs and Mr Troi, and nominate PAD to do the job, should he choose to.
There is something about expectation sets. I think the only films I've seen of late that I went in with high expectations were Lilo and Stitch and Minority Report. Everything else, either the critics, the previous effort in the series, or word of mouth left me thinking "this may stink." And I enjoyed all of these films except for the rather balnd Blood Work. I suppose this is a cynical way to enter theaters, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed any day.
"...the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident?"
PAD, you GOTTA get some more sleep. Won't Shelby and Mueller be a bit put out by Riker and Troi? Especially after "Double or Nothing." Leave Riker and Troi on the Titan, and leave poor Shelby alone. You give her enough headaches without adding Riker and Troi.
J.
Well, I haven't seen the film yet, but it sounds interesting that Riker and Troi wind up on Shelby's ship... (As per the New Frontier novels, for anyone who doesn't read them.)
Just to clear something up;
Riker and Troi are taking over the U.S.S. Titan, not the Trident from NF. I don't think Shelby will have to deal with this particular headache. :)
MJC
I went to see "Star Trek: Nemesis" with absolutely no knowledge of the film. I avoided spoilers and reviews alike, ignored all word of mouth, and just hoped to enjoy it.
And, y'know, I did. Very much.
It's not the best of the Trek films by any measure of the term. It's not the most original, and it failed to impact me as emotionally as it could have - seeing as it is effectively the TNG crew's swan song. But it was an enjoyable two hours of film, the effects were up to the usual Trek standard, and I for one very much appreciated the effort put into trying to do something different with it.
It was the best Trek movie done in nearly a decade. It had, what the last three did not, A Story.
I've been hearing rumors, and curious... I don't like Star Trek in movies, but... did Data really... y'know...?
In the end, I didn't like it as much as I did as, say, ST6.
There isn't too much of a real hard story/plot in the movie. And the resolution is based on luck. (As with the resolutions to Generations, First Contact, and Insurrection.)
The biggest problem with TNG movies is that the big menace is created just for that movie. (Excluding the Borg, of course.)
There are a few villains, but not many, from the TNG series that could be brought back for a movie. Remember the wierd alien worms that came out of the decapitated Starfleet officer?What about the alien race from the first 2 seasons of Voyager, or even the insect-like creature the Borg couldn't assimilate?
And for once -- just once -- why can't the Enterprise just kick ass in the first volley. I mean come one, Scotty didn't let the villlains first shot disable the warp engine! Geordi certainly isn't doing a very good job if that happens to him every. single. time.
No offense, but how can an accomplished writer enjoy Nemesis? It didn't make any sense, it was bad editing, bad direction and I can only assume a decent script was destroyed in production.
Riker and Troi tie the knot at the beginning. That's it, nothing else about it (this isn't a series for it develop later).
Troi gets mind-raped by Shinzon -- Why? Other than giving her a door to get a headache at the Remen, what was the motivation?
Shinzon is made by Romulons, totured by Romulons, imprisoned by Romulons, but wants to blow up Earth? Huh?
Data can be tracked over lightyears? They don't question putting together someone who could be Lore? They don't question the natives that presumably tore him up and had reason to prevent them from putting it back together?
Picard watches his clone get impaled and stands there instead of doing something?
They can't use shuttle transporters to retrieve Data?
I went in WANTING to like it. I'm not a huge STNG fan, but I am a story fan.
This was written like poor fan fiction.
Right. Obviously, I meant Riker and Troi on the Titan.
Y'know, since chronologically it takes place after the current TV series, they could call the film "Titan A.E. (After Enterprise.)"
PAD
I enjoyed it as well. Wrath of Kahn and Nemesis are my top 2 Star Trek movies.
I would LOVE to see another film with Riker and Troi or a series of books about them. I loved the Imzadi books. I am tired of stories revolving around Picard and Data, let's get Riker something meaningful to do.
How about having Ro Laren be his Number One? Just a thought.....
When are you getting started PAD? :)
My overall reaction to the movie was that it was alright. As the last adventure of the NG crew, it was disappointing, considering there was so little of the crew beyond Picard and Data involved with the story. That and the shipboard firefights (and Riker's fistfight) bored me. Just something about the pacing or direction made them seem to drag on needlessly. Especially the firefight aboard the Scimitar where Picard is cutting down hordes of Remans while none of them can land a shot just seems over-the-top. (As my friend quipped during that scene "Apparently the were bred for war, but not accuracy.") Basically, the action scenes could have been either written/directed better to make them actually engaging or else reduced in time to give some of the neglected crew members a chance to shine.
That said, the ship to ship combat was cool, though the pounding the Enterprise took seemed like it should have destroyed the ship twice over. I do have to wonder about the fact that everytime Troi takes the helm, the ship crashes, though.:)
I have to say that I have enjoyed all the TNG movies so far.
I just can't help but feel though they are just full length episodes of the series.
I guess the reason being that as much as I like the orignal series the follow up movies seemed to raise the bar as far as developing the characters and storylines while TNG seems to follow on the same path as the TV show.
The movies are very entertaing, I did kinda hope though that....
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B4 would assume Data's memorys and personality at the end of the movie and it would be clear that Data still lived rather than the vague hint.
The idea of a Riker and Troi movie doesn't appeal to me.
I'm not sure how they would work it but I would rather see a DS9 movie than a Voyager movie if they have to choose between which series to make a movie of next.
Personally i thought the movie was fun, you don't go to see a trek movie w/ your guide to the enterprise and spec pages. It was a little dark in filming but thats been consistant with the last few films. My personal kick was explaining to the fiancee what an Imzadi was.(btw PAD you gotta follow up w/ Imzadi3 she wants to read the 1st 2 now)
-erick
Riker and Troi on the Titan? I smell a PAD-written novel series! :)
Rich
This was an OK film for non-Trekkers, but a horrible one for fans of continuity.
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Why was Wesley in a Starfleet uniform?
What was Worf DOING on the Enterprise in the first place? He's an ambassador now!
Why is the Enterprise back to using mere photon torpedoes instead of quantum torpedoes?
If a deactivated android's positronic signature can be detected on a planet light years away, why doesn't Data's active positronic signature flash-fry everyone in a two-mile radius?
Why no mention of Lore (did his body get destroyed on the Enterprise-D?), or even the possibility that Data did another time-jump thing like in "Time's Arrow" (gee, Data, your head is now 500 years older than your body, but it still works perfectly)?
When they go to Romulus, couldn't someone at least have speculated on Ambassador Spock's whereabouts?
[sarcasm]
Y'know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles...and isn't it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]
Personally i t hought it wa the bets TNG film I'd seen. The best Trek film...well that goes to WOK or Voyage Home. I was a little disapointed to not see the Titan, even more so that the Crusher's seemed to have ended up on the cutting-room floor more then anything. Yeah, I dislike Wesley as much as the next person, considering they had him off with the Traveller be intreasting to know how they got a message to him (I felt they were getting married through the force??)
Was supposed to be a big B-plot with Dr. Crusher wondering if she should stay on ship or leave to go back to Star Fleet Medical. Think there was a snippet of Troi asking her if she'd made up her mind yet but that was all.
And with B4 around, no Data ain't..ya know...of course if they want his original body they'll have to go through the Neutreal Zone with a fine tooth comb and search for pieces. Course #11 is going to be "B4: The Explination" after all, they never say how they got ahold of him.
"I just can't help but feel though they are just full length episodes of the series. I guess the reason being that as much as I like the orignal series the follow up movies seemed to raise the bar as far as developing the characters and storylines while TNG seems to follow on the same path as the TV show."
Well yes. I do not intend to insult the quality of the original Star Trek, but it was what it was. The show aired in 1966, and obviously it had to go through a major upgrade when the Motion Picture and its sequels came out during the 1980s. On the other hand, TNG doesn't require such an obvious "upgrade," since the quality of the show is already better. TNG also told stories during its run that were bigger and more cinematic. Therefore, it is not surprising to me that the line between TV show and movie is a bit less obvious. What cinematic upgrade is really necessary? They got a new ship, they got new uniforms. And they are dealing with very large and complex issues that wouldn't have been as easy to do on the show (First Contact for sure, though much that ground has been covered over the course of the various series . . . and I don't care what everyone says about Insurrection, it dealt with a very complicated series of ideas that would probably have been overwhelming story-wise *and* budget-wise for one of the TV episodes).
I tend to feel that any of the four TNG films could have been used as TOS films, and the complaints we're hearing now wouldn't have existed.
Personally I was very pleased with Nemesis. The problem I personally have with much of Star Trek (DS9 definitely excluded from this) is that it tends to be episodic in the sense that continuity between shows in minimal. Nemesis is at its best when it deals with the characters and their ongoing storylines. So as far as "episodeness" goes, I don't see the argument.
As for the "Why is Worf there" thing, I just assumed he was Picard's hardass new First Officer. If Jean-Luc asked him to re-enlist, Worf would drop the Ambassador bit no prob.
[sarcasm]Y'know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles...and isn't it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]
21st century Earth is also a "pre-warp society," you know...
Peter...Honey,
You need to get some sleep.
Kath
Actually, Data was Picard's new first officer. I heard a deleted scene would have introduced Picard's second new number one at the end, but for my money it would have made more sense to give that job to Worf.
Wasn't Lore disassembled in TNG's final season? So, there was no way the android they found could have been Lore. Granted, given their track record with androids that weren't Data, I would have suggested just leaving it there.
I think a Riker, Captain of the Trident, would make an interesting Comic Book Series. I also think you writing it would be very cool.
Rob's posting ("No offense, but how can an accomplished writer enjoy Nemesis?") summed up my objections to Trek X nicely.
Other bits of broken continutity not mentioned yet include the fact that Picard was not bald a young man- several episodes, including the excellent "Tapestry" have shown him to have had hair when he was younger. It is possible that Shinzon shaved his head, but then what's up with the photo that Picard shows to Crusher of himself in an Academy uniform with no hair? Was he the victim of a particularly humiliating hazing?
As to the personal emergency transporter that Data slaps on Picard at the last moment, it's said in the movie that it's a prototype and there's only one, but thanks to DVD, we can all see personal emergency transporter devices in used my multiple members of the crew in the 6th season episode "Timescape".
Are these nit-picky Trekkie complaints? Sure, but if you make a Star Trek movie, you should keep the Trekkers in mind when you do so.
Peter,
Every time I hear "Nemesis" I think of Kids in the Hall "you sir, are my nemesis"
BTW. I liked the movie but it sucked big-time
Greg, in 'Timescape' they used those armbands in concert with the runabout's transporter system. They were not transporters in and of themselves. The Enterprise in Nemesis had all of it's transporter systems off line. The emergency transporter is what did the entire transporter function.
Rich
Dear PAD,
I went to see Star Trek: Nemesis because I'm a fan, I've seen almost every episode of all the various series and all the movies. I am not however a die hard "Trekie", meaning my life
doesn't revolve around Trek. I
generally don't go out of my way
to get the latest Trek do-dads,
almost never read any of the Trek
novels, and have read very few of
the various comics and graphic
novels. Don't take this the wrong
way, but I've never read any of
your Trek novels or those of any
other Trek author either. I
generally don't have the time to do much reading beyond my regular
comics purchases, and the few
magazines I subscribe to. The last book I read wasn't even a novel,
it was a book on quantum physics and cosmology - and a very
entertaining one at that. The book
was called "Hyperspace", by
astrophysicist Michio Kaku, and
since you write SF you might find
some of the things written about in
the book intresting, but I digress
(opps!).
My point is this, I went to see
the movie because it was Trek, and I'm a fan. I didn't think it was
the worst Trek movie I ever saw,
and actually thought that it was
better than Insurrection in many
ways. Did it have plot holes? Yes.
But then again, so does nearly
every other Hollywood movie I've
ever seen - even the much vaunted
Star Wars, and Lord Of The Rings.
As a movie, I thought it worked
quite well, as part of the Trek
series, it worked in some ways, and
in some ways it did not.
The problem with Star Trek is
that too many people have their own
interpretation of what Trek should
be. If someone feels that killing off Data is wrong, then they feel
that Trek's writers have betrayed
them. The truth of the matter is,
Data had to be killed off, because
androids don't age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play
the part any more - it's that simple. Killing him off is a much
better way to write him out than
coming up with a lame excuse to
explain why Data looks different
after they recast the role with a younger actor, and risk angering
the fans even more.
As for Enterprise, the new Trek TV series, I like it because it's different, and because it
helps to explain some of the gaps
in Trek's history. Is it the
perfect TV show? No, but it
doesn't have to be. Am I angry
that the show's theme actually has
*gasp* singing? No. But it's
unbelievable how many Trek fans
want that song changed because it
has singing and lyrics! Some fans
actually hate the entire show
simply because of that song! These
people really do need to get a
life, and they should lighten up a
little as well - come on, it's only
a TV show, and only a movie.
The only thing wrong about this
movie was when it was relased,
Paramount should never have
released Star Trek: Nemesis so
close to the release date of Lord
Of The Rings. In fact, they would
probably have done much better at
the box office if they had waited
till the spring - say May to
release this movie than when they
they did release it. But that's
just my opinion. I have other
things I'd like to comment on about
Trek, but I'll save them for
another time and forum since this
post is getting too long.
DMH
Of course, in Nemesis they managed to forget they had all the runabouts and their transport systems around (easily fixed with one line; "Deck 37 was hit and all runabouts destroyed")
Saw Nemesis with Tim Lynch and his wife Lisa and as I recall they liked it a bit more than I did. My summary was that the movie mostly worked while watching it, but if you thought closely about almost any part of it, it fell apart. On the other hand, reports are that there was about 45 minutes of footage cut, including Wesley's speaking part (and Wil Wheaton was in the credits), the intro of Picard's new Number One, etc. that's supposed to end up on the DVD, which might make it hold together better.
Neither Tim nor I could quite believe Jonathan Frakes as an action hero at this point though. And when Frakes dived across the fire-fight corridor into the access hatch Tim and I had the following dialogue:
Me: "It's a waste disposal unit!"
Tim: "What an interesting smell you've discovered!" (i.e. Star Wars Ep. 4).
Btw, Kath, congrats on the promotion (per Locus).
As a movie, ST Nemesis ultimately fails because of because of its villain—Shinzon, and because it doesn’t execute its intended themes very well.
First, Shinzon. Okay, so he’s a clone of Picard. So what? Cloning has been done loads of times, and the theme of a character experiencing doubt as he ponders how the existence of a doppelganger reflects upon him has been done before. We got this in Time Squared. We got it in Second Chances. We didn’t need it again, and the way it’s portrayed here, I don’t buy it. In Time Squared, Picard had to doubt himself, because the fact that apparently questionable actions on his part resulted in tragedy is something that already happened, albeit in the future. In Second Chances, Riker has to accept the fact that his doppelganger is him, and was him, right up until eight years ago, and cannot take solace in the fact that they had separate lives and experiences prior to then. Here, we’re supposed to believe that Shinzon’s childish taunt to Picard—the insinuation that Picard somehow shares in the responsibility for things that Shinzon does—actually gives pause to Picard, and I don’t buy it for a second. Picard should be smart enough to know that what Shinzon does has nothing to do with him, regardless of his genetics. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of genetics and personality dynamics should know that genetics alone do not determine character, and even if they did, Picard shouldn’t be worrying at this stage in his life about whether atrocities committed by someone with the same DNA as him says anything about himself.
This in itself wouldn’t be so bad if the movie at least gave Shinzon a solid motivation for wanting to attack Earth. This guy was conceived by the Romulans as a weapon, tossed aside when not wanted anymore and tortured by Romulan guards all his life, and his main beef is with the Federation? Why is this? Shouldn’t his main problems be with Romulans? What does he care about Earth, or the Federation? His entire plan, if you want to call it that, seems like nothing more than a gigantic child’s tantrum. If this kid grew up in Reman mines, where did he get educated? How did he amass an army? Once he escaped the mines, wouldn’t he be more interested in enjoying life as a free man than imagining an implausible vendetta against Picard or Earth, who’ve never done anything to him?
In Creative Screenwriting Vol. 9, #6, page 18, screenwriter John Logan….
…told Berman that Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan had to be the model for the next Trek movie: "Khan was the most exciting, most challenging and, therefore, most entertaining of the Star Trek movies," he said. Analyzing this "high-water mark" (written by Harve Bennett, Jack B. Sowards, and Nicholas Meyer), Logan came away with two strong beliefs. First, the relationship between protagonist and antagonist was paramount. "Kirk and Khan, it was clash of the titans. They had a very personal relationship based on events that took place in the original series. Picard and somebody in Nemesis having a strong personal relationship raises the stakes for those characters." Then there’s the psychological backdrop. "There’s an autumnal feeling in Khan, a sense that time is moving on. I thought that was of essence to capture in the next movie. We’ve seen these characters grow and evolve over the last fifteen years, and I was very much excited by the idea of having them break through some of those glass ceilings. We decided to move toward finality with a few of our major characters."
Logan had a number of ideas that would challenge the world of the Next Generation characters. Dancing around major plot points, he allows, "I wanted Riker and Deanna to get married in the first scene. I wanted the third act to be a non-stop ship battle. This is a war movie, and I wanted certain things to happen, in terms of the action." He also had some radical ideas about Data "and the Dr. Soong family, if you will," [Dr. Soong was the scientist who created Data], while Berman added the specific nature of Shinzon’s relationship to Picard. Working closely with Berman and Spiner, Logan found that "I knew so much more about Star Trek than either of them! I would go on these Trekkie rants, and Rick and Brent would just roll their eyes."
First, I do not see the relationship between Shinzon and Picard as coming anywhere NEAR the depth of Kirk and Khan, and after noting that Kirk and Khan had a very personal history because of events in the series, I’m left wondering why Logan didn’t do just that. ST First Contact did a good job using an enemy from the series that would bring back powerful feelings for Picard, so why not use another? Why not have Gul Madred be the villain? He probably traumatized Picard more than anyone else aside from the Borg, and he was an EXCELLENT villain. And if they really wanted Romulans, how about Tomalok? Logan says later in the article, "Before I sat down to write, I watched every episode of The Next Generation." Coulda fooled me. Now I’m not saying you can’t create a good original villain for a movie (Kruge and General Chang come to mind), but Shinzon isn’t it. He comes across as nothing more than a whiny child for whom being given power is like being given too much sugar. I don’t buy his ridiculous motivations for wanting to destroy Earth, nor Picard’s absurd preoccupation with how Shinzon’s actions reflect upon him. Given that Logan wasn’t even the one who came up with the nature of the relationship between Picard and Shinzon, one wonders how Logan feels he executed this "very personal relationship" between them.
In the forward to the movie’s novelization, John Logan writes:
"Our villian, Shinzon, actually began the long road to his final incarnation in Nemesis as Picard’s long-lost son."
Well, nice try. They explored that theme already in Bloodlines. He continues:
John Logan: "[Rick Berman] came to the rescue with the single idea that galvanized the whole story: have the villain be Picard’s clone. Rick argued persuasively that it would be more compelling to have Picard versus Picard. What better adversary than yourself? What better foe than a man who thinks just like you do, with the same strengths and weaknesses? What could be more poignant for Captain Picard than facing a dark mirror of himself?"
Again, they did that in The Best of Both Worlds partII, and I see no evidence of it here. True, BoBWpartII wasn’t a Picard vs. Picard theme in the more literal sense, but in that episode, Riker had to contend with the fact that all of Picard’s knowledge and experience—which would normally have been an asset with Picard on the bridge—had suddenly been turned into a weapon that would be used against them. Riker had to not only come up with a solution that Picard wouldn’t, he had to come up with a solution that was disguised as something that Picard would’ve been expressly against: risking lives to save one assimilated crew member. What appeared to Locutus as a poor strategy based on an emotional need to rescue a comrade turned out to be Riker’s way of using the Borg’s connection with Locutus against them.
In this movie, where is the evidence that Picard is facing himself as an enemy? What, just because the kid is bald and speaks with a British accent? What do we see of Shinzon’s actions that appear to the viewer as something Picard might do? Where is the moment where the viewer says to himself, "Yeah, that’s what Picard would do if he were a bad guy! I get it!"??? All we see is this: Shinzon invites the Enterprise to Romulus, plays games with them, invites the crew over but doesn’t act very friendly. He then has some words with Picard. Then, out of nowhere, he kidnaps Picard, Picard gets rescued, and then there’s a space battle. Nowhere do I see this as Picard against himself, because the creators did nothing more than dress up Shinzon as a Picard clone, wiithout actually exploring what makes Picard who he is internally.
I would’ve LOVED it if Logan were actually interested in exploring the internal workings of both Picard and Shinzon, in a plot that dealt as much with Romulan and Federation politics as starship dogfights. What personality traits of Picard’s could we have given Shinzon, and how could Picard have used those traits against him? Well, Picard is an experienced diplomat. Wouldn’t it have been cool to have seen Shinzon using his silver tongue and deceitful planning the way Dukat did in Cardassians(DS9), or the way Entek did in Second Skin(DS9) ? Picard doesn’t like being told by his first officer to stay off away teams, because he likes being a more pro-active, hands-on captain. Perhaps Shinzon has this trait, but it is so magnified, that he’s a micromanager, and doesn’t know how to delegate important duties to people he trusts. Picard is very closed socially, not given to relationships or starting a family. Perhaps Shinzon could be similarly isolated, and his weakness could be his longing for someone to love or trust other than his viceroy.
But what did we get?
Bald head? Check.
Cool outfit? Check.
There. We’re done. Let’s blow stuff up. Sorry, but merely having the actor shave his head, and "saying" that he’s a clone, does not, in itself, make a "Picard vs. himself" theme.
Nemesis also suffers from one of the same problems as Generations: It wants to borrow one of the themes from ST II, but ignores the fact that the theme, as it was executed in that movie, worked because it mirrored real life. ST II was about the passage of time, and the feeling of being old and being young. This was such a plausible theme because time had passed in real-life. Ten years had passed between the end of the original series and the first movie, and another three by the time of the second one. It was easy for Kirk to be concerned about growing old because William Shatner had grown older, and so too, did the fans. For those who had enjoyed the tv show as teens, they were now able to continue to enjoy it as a movie franchise, but with the innocence of their youth now replaced with a more tempered adulthood. It was impossible not to sympathize with Kirk. Generations couldn’t do this, because that movie came right after the end of the series, and the fact Picard was four years older when that tv series started than Kirk was in ST II certainly didn’t make that theme easily applicable. Indeed, by the NextGen era, it no longer seemed as if a Starfleet captain was expected to be out of the captain’s chair and into an admiral’s office by the time he was in his mid-to-late fifties (or even, as in Picard’s case, his mid-sixties), so if the creators were dead-set on reusing the age/youth theme for Generations, whatever set-up they would use would feel far more artificial, and indeed, in killing off Robert and Rene as a way to catalyze that theme, it did.
In the forward to the novelization, John Logan writes:
"[Nicholas Meyer and Jack Sowards] did something very smart in [Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan]: they gave Kirk glasses. With that simple act, they acknowledged that fact that these characters were getting older; that time was moving on for them. I felt it important to capture this sense of continuity with The Next Generation crew……My hope was to write a movie about the special family that is the Enterprise crew; a family that is growing and evolving. I wanted to dramatize our heroes at the moment of change and show Picard dealing with it all. From the very beginning I imagined starting the movie with the wedding of Riker and Deanna."
But where exactly do we see Picard actually "dealing" with this change? Where is the soul-searching he does that is reminiscent of Kirk’s in ST II?
Logan says he wanted to capture that autumnal feeling in Nemesis, the sense that time is moving on. I didn’t get that feeling. Riker and Troi’s marriage, and Riker’s promotion to captain and his own command, felt far too late, and far too much as an afterthought, when it should’ve been the main point of character exploration. This is really a shame, because how Riker and Troi got to this point in their relationship might’ve been a truly interesting character issue to explore in the movie. I also find it odd that Logan says he wanted to "move toward finality with a few of [the] major characters." Finality? Riker and Troi’s marriage? That’s finality? Marriage? Nice to see Logan has such a positive view of marriage. "I now pronounce you man and wife. Your life is now over. Good-bye!" Marriage is not the end of good stories. Neither is a first officer and counselor promoted to another ship. It is simply the beginning of different ones. ST II utilized an officer’s promotion with Chekov on another ship, and ST VI even more so with Sulu getting the Excelsior. And Peter David has shown with New Frontier that neither marriage nor a first officer becoming captain of their own ship has to end the series, but simply move it along. I wish the creators could see this. Or perhaps Logan meant in in Data’s "death"? Pfft. Donatra beamed him off at the last minute, as will be likely be revealed in the next movie. And if not, what difference does it make, when you have a spare android on board anyway? Sure, there was nothing illogical about it, and it did flow believably from the plot, but when Spock died in ST II, it tied directly into the theme of Kirk’s pondering on youth, age, life and death. Data’s death bears no thematic resonance in this movie.
I personally hope that Mr. and Mrs. Troi show up on the next television series. I like the movies, but if they cease to exist after this one it wouldn't bother me too much. Just don't take away my weekly fix.
I really enjoyed the film, but agree that it could have been better. But weren't the special effects done really well? It was good to see model work done again - more realism in the crashing sequence.
PAD, I met you one year in San Diego (1995 I think) - You and Neil Gaiman were chatting after his panel and I happen to be standing there. After you and Mr. Gaiman were done talking, I ask to have my picture taken with the two of you. As the camera person was taking the picture, you reach up and grab my shoulder and pull me down saying, "The fan can never be taller than the writer..."
I have never forgot that and have told that story more times than people would like to probably hear it. Thanks for the good memory. Looking forward to the new New Frontier novel and the futher adventures of Sir Apropos.
Xyon
East Tennessee
Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot to say.
Greg: As to the personal emergency transporter that Data slaps on Picard at the last moment, it's said in the movie that it's a prototype and there's only one, but thanks to DVD, we can all see personal emergency transporter devices in used my multiple members of the crew in the 6th season episode "Timescape".
Luigi Novi: First, the ones in Timescape were much larger. Hence, a very small one would have to be more advanced. Second, because the Enterprise transporters were down, this means that those little transporter pips had to dematerilalize and rematerialize themselves, which seems fairly impossible. (Yeah, Peter used them in Double or Nothing, but hey, he’s a better writer, so it’s forgivable.) Lastly, the armbands in Timescape were also used to create personal subspace forecefields.
David M. Harszlak: The truth of the matter is, Data had to be killed off, because androids don't age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play the part any more
Luigi Novi: This is a commonly heard point made by many people, including Brent Spiner himself. It should be pointed out, though, that Data has an aging program to cause him to age in appearance, as they established in Inheritance(TNG).
Helz wrote: "Y'know, for a pre-warp society, those natives sure had some neat off-road vehicles...and isn't it refreshing that after 35 years, at long last Star Trek has its first car chase? [/sarcasm]"
The close-up at the end of the scene seemed to show the pursuers as being Remans and not the natives. On the bright side, I was glad to see that Shinzon's doomsday device was apparently designed by Rube Goldberg. While it wheezed and clanked into position for seven minutes, I'm sure they could have sent Worf outside to dismantle it with an axe. Or a few carefully thrown rocks...
Cheers, Jon
I loved the movie overall but it was partially derailed for me early on when I thought to myself how much more Shinzon resembled Austin Powers' Dr. Evil than he did Captain Picard. Mini Me 2.0?
"What cinematic upgrade is really necessary? They got a new ship, they got new uniforms. And they are dealing with very large and complex issues that wouldn't have been as easy to do on the show"
I agree with everything you say about the quality of the orignal show compared to the TNG show, but I personnally feel that they should have attempted to raise the bar and feel that they have just taken all the safe choices when it comes to changes.
New ship (introducing a new ship has been done before in Star Trek IV and DS9 so fans expect these things now)
New uniforms, (they used to change these regularly on DS9 so fans have no problem with that)
Large complex issues (Everything they have handled as you mentioned as been featured in one form or another in the various series)
This is just following the same route laid done by the TNG series and the spin-off series.
I myself while happy with the level of the TNG movies can't help but feel that there was so much more that could have been done.
Playing safe is not always the smart choice as the box office taking are showing.
Paramount should be trying to raise the bar with Star Trek in order for it to have a next generation of fans.
Here's how I would rank the ST films....
1. Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (1982) Directed by Nicholas Meyer
2. ST: First Contact (1996) Directed by Jonathan Frakes
3. The Voyage Home (1986) Directed by Leonard Nimoy
4. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) Directed by Nicholas Meyer
5. Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) Directed by Stuart Baird
6. Star Trek: Insurrection (1998) Directed by Jonathan Frakes
7. Star Trek: Generations (1994) Directed by David Carson
8. Star Trek: The Search For Spock (1984) Directed by Leonard Nimoy
9. Star Trek The Motion Picture (1980) Directed by Robert Wise
10. Star Trek: The Final Frontier (1989) Directed by William Shatner
I went in not expecting much and enjoyed the heck out of it, so much so that I saw it a second time. The clones of Comic Book Guy who want to whine about Berman and Braga and continuity and whatever need to let go and actually enjoy things. It looks and sounds great, and to me it actually feels cinematic, which none of the previous TNG movies had (I didn't like Generations or First Contact, and I liked Insurrection but it was clearly an extended-length TV episode).
I'd love to see a DS9 movie, but that would be difficult with the way the series ended. Maybe it could be set back between some of the already-seen episodes, like a lot of the novels are.
I felt the movie was OK but I was thrilled that Riker called Troi "Imzadi." In my mind it was a "shout out" to my favorite Star Trek writer. I've been corrected by other fans that PAD didn't create the word. My response is he may not have invented it but he certainly gave it depth and meaning to us fans or at least to me.
PAD hope you and Kath are getting at least some sleep.
Jesse
I didn't go in expecting much from Menesis and found it a mildly enjoyable time-waster (with some frustrating inconsistancies). However, I saw the Firefly 2 hour pilot a few days later and felt it was much more worthy of a $9 admission.
Well, I made my views on Nemesis earlier, but here's how I rank the Trek film franchise:
1. Undiscovered Country
2. Wrath of Khan
3. First Contact
4. Generations
5. The Final Frontier
6. The Voyage Home
7. Nemesis
8. Insurrection
9. Star Trek: The Motion Picture
I'm probably one of the few that enjoyed The Final Frontier. Why? The campfire scene with Kirk, Spock, and Bones, discussing mortality was worth the price of admission.
To me, it just felt like one big two-hour episode of the TV show.
Which would be fine, except it's a big motion picture and the bar should be higher.
Things did seem recycled, but not in a good way.
Plus, too much screen time for characters I don't like and too little for the ones I do.
Brick Top: Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me!
Thats from Snatch.
I'll say this about Nemesis, it was better than Episode II.
What's wrong with people? I ask myself.
Why was Wes there? Why was Worf in uniform, Lore this and Lore that.
Because it didn't need to be explained! Go with it baby!
I wondered about the hair thing as well. But then I GOT OVER IT.
Shinzon was chilling, Data bit the dust and Troi kicked some mental ass.
Picard was on crack and they lost another helmsman.
That's all I ask!
I've seen it three times, sho nuff.
Good stuff.
I'll say this about Nemesis, it was better than Episode II.
At least NEMESIS had some soul to it. AOTC had less soul than...than...shit, almost everything.
Of course with the ending, I wondered if B-4 should be named "Vision."
Personally, the adventures of Riker and Troi on the Trident...I wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
I would like to at least read about it...since I can not writw good....hint...I always want more Worf, we could have had three seconds of dealing with the triangle. At least Worf saying something kind to Troi while they were firing phasers together. "Stay strong Troi, Break him like you broke my heart...."
Like most of you I went in not expecting much, but unlike most of you I went out having not received much. To be honest i've always had a problem wirh TNG and that's the fact that there's so little action in it. The movie has more certainly but what really irks me is the way Picard and co are always running from a fight (e.g when they pick up B4 and the bad guys show up, when they run away at the end into the mist or nebula or whatever, and at least two other occasions I've forgotten). I know it's down to the PC nature of TNG but they've got the Enterprise, if not the flagship of the fleet then certainly one of the best, and everytime they should stand and deliver they cut and run. I guess in the future discretion is the ONLY part of valour. It's just so unheroic. Bring back Shatner with a zimmer frame!!!!!
The Enterprise is the flagship.
And the Soong android prototype was named B4, not B9.
**Data had to be killed off, because
androids don't age, and Brent Spiner is getting too old to play
the part any more**
Actually, as was shown in "To All Good Things" Data can alter his appearance to simulate aging if he chooses, which he might so as to not upset the crewmembers he is surrounded by daily who grow steadily older while he does not.
The real reason was the Brent Spiner, much like Nimoy back around the time of WoK, wanted out of the franchise as he had grown tired of playing Data after nearly 20 years.
I think his aging in appearance program was shown back in that episode where he met his mother. Also, he's played Data for 15 years, not 20. :)
I think it would be interesting for PAD to write the next Trek movie. I would also like for them to allow the movie to go 3 hours to get all the details of the novelization in it, not to mention the intersting spins that PAD would most likley come up with.
Luigi, great post, very thoughtful.
I guess what I was trying to say earlier was this: Nemesis wasn't a bad film, but it could have been so much better with so little effort (less than a minute of bits of dialogue to explain things that would cause ecstatic droolings in the Trekker fanbase and not detract in any way from the movie for everyone else).
BTW, I don't not watch Enterprise because of the crappy theme, but because there is little character development (Archer is literally no different today than he was at the pilot), and no sense of the great things that SHOULD be happening in Trek's history. For example, DS9 re-established that the Eugenics Wars and Khan Singh happened in the mid-22nd Century, almost on top of the Romulan War the established the Neutral Zone. And do they plan to give us the birth of the Federation? Those things by themselves should provide an incredible epic story arc -- but no, we're getting crap stories that were stale when Voyager did them.
So yes, they do need to fire Berman and Braga and Piller. The franchise needs a new showrunner...someone with an eye for continuity and characterization and epic season-long arcs...someone who after May will have a lot of time on his hands...Joss Whedon. Think about it...
Just wanted to add to the comments about Worf. I also don't know why he's on the ship, except maybe the lame excuse is that he's visiting for the wedding. However, he was more of a major character in scenes that were cut but which were kept in JM Dillard's novelization. [Novelization SPOILER] The subplot was that Worf had a racial resentment of Romulans because his parents were killed at Khitomer. Then there is the cooridor fight scene that was kept leading to Riker's fight. However, one of the Remans slips away and is followed by Worf. Worf gets wounded and Dr Crusher shoots the Reman, but Crusher can't figure out how to heal him. He is eventually cured by a Romulan doctor, and begins to put aside his feeling against Romulans. Hope that part is included on the DVD.
Okay, to take it along the path of Wrath of Khan, yet give it it's own spin, have Picard struggling with uber-empty-nest-syndrome. As each of the team begins to go their own way, Picard realizes what he's losing. To top it off, Troy is pregnant and THAT'S why she and Riker finally tie the knot, and Riker discovers that becoming a father changes his perspective on going into harms way (not a lot, but enough to comment on it and perhaps affect his command style a bit... just enough for Picard to notice).
Meanwhile, Data has found some new subprogramming that makes him less the innocent naife, and more the commander he should be.
THAT'S when they discover a teenage clone of Picard who probably has some sensitive information about the looming Romulan aggression. The Enterprise is tasked to bring that clone out no matter the cost.
Picard subconsciously sees this as a way to claim family, and it brings out a desperate side of him we've never seen before. He starts taking risks, discovers he can't rely on Riker or fully trust the new uber-Data, so we have in-fighting, internal conflict, and some big questions to be answered.
Eventually we discover the clone is part of a plot and he is mentally manipulating Picard into rash action to foment the war the Romulans have been looking for. Unbeknownst to the Federation, the Romulons were fomenting the discord displayed in Insurrection and they just needed a final rash action on the part of the Fed Flagship to drive the final nail. Data unravels all of this, and martyrs himself to unravel the Romulan's schemes. The Deanna scene where she mentally pummels the Remen remains, but she does it with mastery and confidence rather than the "oh, this hurts, what a migraine!" expression. They may all be going their own way with new beginnings, but by golly they will ALWAYS be a team.
That's the movie they should have made.
What bothers me most about Star Trek lately is that the producers seem to be trying their hardest to produce a "hit" movie/TV show with a known popular product, without giving the fans what they want to see – the popular stuff!
For my money, there are two ways to go to make Star Trek popular again:
A.) Create a show or movie that combines the “best” elements from the past incarnations. "Generations" cheated. We (at least I) did not want a movie about Kirk and Picard meeting in a magical Nexus to defeat a previously unknown foe. "We" wanted the crew of the Enterprise 1701-A to TEAM UP with the crew of the Enterprise 1701-D! Think of all the character moments missed. Both captains and their crews working together to overcome some galaxy-threatening evil. Kirk/Picard, Data/Spock, Geordi/Scotty, Troi/Uhura, Sulu/Riker, Worf/Chekov? - Well, you get the idea. (Sort of like a JLA/JSA team up for all you comic fans out there...) They could have done a "time travel" thing and had the original crew appear shortly before/after the events of ST:VI. But we didn't get that, we got “Generations”... Now's the chance to give us what we want - a combined crew from the past. Well, recent past anyway. Riker and Troi on a new ship. Throw in some newbies. Then add The Doctor from Voyager, possibly Tom Paris at the helm. If not Geordi in engineering, what about O'Brien or Torres? How about a descendant of the Andorian Sharan from "Enterprise"? Tuvok? Worf? The possibilities are endless and obviously open for debate. (maybe too open…) The exploration of the Gamma quadrant – tying it to DS9, would allow for new adventures as well as ties to the old series’ continuities. Guest appearances. Special events - “Tonight, on a very special Star Trek: Titan – the return of Captain Picard!!!” It might actually be fun again!
B.) Do a series of two or three Star Trek TV movies a year from various time periods in Star Trek history. Riker and Troi on the Titan. Sulu and the Excelsior. DS9 and Voyager follow-ups. The return of Sisko. How the hell Janeway got to be an Admiral! What happened to 7 of 9 and The Doctor upon their return to the Alpha Quadrant. Odo. Thomas Riker. And many others that I’m sure you all could come up with. (I know many of these themes have been or are going to be addressed in novels, but it would be fun to see them live!)
Anyway – that’s what I’d like to see. And it’s why I read PAD’s stuff, because he likes to pay tribute to the past and have fun with it while going on in new directions. Just seems that by flying with the excuse of “not wanting to repeat themselves” the producers of Star Trek are missing a lot of opportunities to keep the franchise going. “Star Trek” to me is the idea of a star ship out in space, exploring new worlds and having exciting adventures with characters we care about! I would hate to see it fade away…
Thanks for reading.
Absolutely fascinating how much traffic this thread has had. Even after all these years, after everything that may or may not have been done to dampen our enthusiasm, we can still muster the energy and concern to debate all this Trek stuff. If Paramount really is losing us as Enterprise creeps along, they are going to be kissing goodbye to perhaps the most dedicated bunch of fans this side of Middle Earth.
Posted by Helz:
[Enterprise shows] no sense of the great things that SHOULD be happening in Trek's history. For example, DS9 re-established that the Eugenics Wars and Khan Singh happened in the mid-22nd Century, almost on top of the Romulan War the established the Neutral Zone. And do they plan to give us the birth of the Federation? Those things by themselves should provide an incredible epic story arc...
For what it's worth, it seems as if the Paramount PTB have chosed to leave the Eugenics Wars to the Greg Cox novels, but Enterprise has dropped hints about the Romulan Star Empire (and has shown Romulan vessels) and the founding of the Federation, which threads might get picked up in the future.
I agree the show is not arc-heavy, but there are bits and pieces of continuity (both episode-to-episode and in terms of connection to larger Trek-lore) that do pique interest. (And the running concept of a "temporal cold war" provides a great way to write off any minor continuity glitches: "Hey, them temporal cold warriors changed the timeline a bit!") Enterprise isn't great and isn't terribly distinctive, but it's not awful either--and it's early yet; TNG and DS9 didn't find their sea (space?) legs until the third season or so, so I'm willing to stick it out a bit longer.
"Just seems that by flying with the excuse of “not wanting to repeat themselves” the producers of Star Trek are missing a lot of opportunities to keep the franchise going."
Yes, exactly. And, irony of ironies, despite Berman continuing with his mantra of making a different kind of Star Trek (i.e. not repeating themselves), they are repeating themselves more than ever! Pretty sad that a show that has been airing off-and-on (mostly on these days) for thirty years can't make good use of an established fictional universe that, with the exception of Tolkien's Middle-earth, is the largest and most diverse I can think of. I know that doing a host of "sequels" would be tiring, but there are a lot of places where the show was gone once successfully, and then never revisited. Star Trek has so often been about that ship that flies around the galaxy solving people's problems. Obviously there are a lot of places out there that got "quick fixes" that could be readdressed. That's why I found DS9 was so successful, instead of solving the problem and running away they were forced to deal with long-term issues and solve problems over the course of years instead of hours and days.
And relatively non-continuous storytelling may have been all the rage in the 60s and 70s, but such is no longer the case. So-called "anthology" series like The Twilight Zone are one thing, but in a time when science fiction has produced such miraculous (albeit fairly low-budget) storytelling such as "Babylon 5," how can I, as a viewer, really sink my teeth into Enterprise? The Temporal Cold War is turning out just to be something interesting to go back to once or twice a season, but it needs to be pursued more vigorously and progressively. And what about Shran, the Andorian, or Silik (or even the mysterious Future Humanoid)? They both have the potential to be very complex continuing villains, which is something the show needs. We need a "Dukat" or a "Weyoun." The closest Voyager ever got to that was Seska, and that says a lot about why Voyager never made it.
Speaking of continuity, am I the only person who's wondering what the hell happened to Cutler? The writers included her in arguably the most successful installment of the first season, "Dear Doctor," giving her a relational tie to Dr. Phlox, and throughout the second season she hasn't been back. What kind of storytelling is that? In "The Catwalk," I kept waiting for a scene in which they run into Cutler helping Phlox in his "sickbay."
Sorry if this went too far off-topic, but it's fascinating to read through this thread and see the varying views people have on why Star Trek is running out of steam. And there can't be any doubt that it *is* running out of steam.
Well, I guess there's always the possibility of having a new cast play the original crew in movies. Or a Pike series. Ray Liotta does look a lot like Jeffrey Archer. Not in Narc, mind you, but most of the time.
I gather that a lot of the character bits and explanatory lines were shot for Nemesis and may show up on the DVD. I hope so. I was waiting for Riker's oft-reported farewell line to the Viceroy ("Don't worry. Hell is dark." or something to that effect), and I'm still waiting.
Cheers, Jon
I only saw the pilot of Enterprise.
You who continue to view it, a question: have they explained yet why pre-Kirk Klingons look and act like Next Generation-era Klingons? That bugged the heck out of me, especially considering the way the Klingon makeover was addressed in that hilarious "Tribbles" episode of DS9.
Posted by Jason:
I only saw the pilot of Enterprise.
You who continue to view it, a question: have they explained yet why pre-Kirk Klingons look and act like Next Generation-era Klingons? That bugged the heck out of me, especially considering the way the Klingon makeover was addressed in that hilarious "Tribbles" episode of DS9.
No, Enterprise hasn't explained the Klingon's physical appearance. (I don't quite see what really needs to be explained about the way TOS-Klingons and TNG-Klingons act that can't just be chalked up to individual characters' personalities and the general evolution of the Klingon/Federation relationship)
Anyway, while Enterprise might get around to it in the future, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply never did. After all, no answer is ever going to be truly satisfying, and the meta reason (irrelevant to continuity as it may be) is very understandable: the producers can afford cooler makeup now than in the 1960s!
Helz, thank you for the kind words about my review.
However, I don't think DS9 "reestablished" the the Eugenics Wars took place in the 22nd century. That line by Admiral Bennet was mostly likely a mistake. Canon is quite clear that they took place in the 20th.
But thanks again.
I enjoyed the ship to ship battles, but the mind boggles that with so many people involved in this movie - so many plot holes can yawn open.
Data gets ONE beam-me-up Scotty button?! He had room in his forearm for TWO. At least he should've brought TWO and had ONE shot to pieces, THEN Picard's balls get bigger when he says "We'll find a way out together."
Two - Worf. I don't believe that in the PC future of TNG our dune buggies all have rear mounted laser cannons. I WOULD'VE enjoyed a chance for Worf to produce his personal laser cannon HE BROUGHT WITH HIM just in case there was trouble.
How many minutes does it take Picard to wake up from his trance after his clone has been skewered. The pacing of that climax was... slow.
The minute the Data clone B4 showed up, I KNEW Data would sacrifice himself -- ergo, it was a half hearted sacrifice on the part of the Nemesis creative team. Better to have NO CLONE, then the sacrifice is daring... like Spock's in WOK.
The enemy ship's shields were at 75% when the Enterprise rammed it and did serious damage. With this in mind I think all Federation Star Ships should have '72 Ford Pinto's stapled to the front of them in case they ever run into superior forces with shields at 75% again. Or maybe keep a kid with slingshot stationed in front of the ship. "Shields are down, deploy Eddie Guthrie!!!"
(pant pant pant) Okay, I'm done.
Yeah! See! Wasn't so bad now was it? I thought First Contact was too much Khan rehash and this one did suffer from some of that too. But hey, it was good trek. I'd love to see a Titan show too.
Just got back from "Gangs of New York." Movie of the year right there, though definately not for the faint of heart as blood and gore abound.
Shawn
My boy took me to this one, I'm not a big Star Trek fan. I didn't think it was terrible.
But the start in a 'Senate' and trade talks....I wondered why all SF movies have to start with governing problems lately. HAs someone writen a book saying the way to get kids into a SF movie is to make it about interplanetary trade?
It is indeed interesting how much attn this thread is getting...
For the record, I liked TNG latest outing in screen too, it wasn't their best but better then "Insurrection" in my opinion.
*spoiler* (sorta)
I laughed out loud at Data's greeting at the wedding "Welcome Ladies, Gentleman, and invited trans-gendered guests" or something to that effect. I think it was because it felt like it was such a "Data" thing to say and to me it was like hearing from an old friend whom I havent heard from in too long...oh and I spotted Wesley in that scene also...
I think someone posted a comment about a "shout out" to PAD for the "Imzadi" thing...Where as he does deserve the shout out because Mr. David definitely defined the name for us (and did a great job of it too!)
I thought I remember Troi using it on the very first episode of TNG...
" (I don't quite see what really needs to be explained about the way TOS-Klingons and TNG-Klingons act"
***I probably put that too vaguely. What I meant was, the Klingons on Enterprise not only have the appearance of TNG Klingons (the weird stuff on their heads), but the same clothing, the same apparent cultural trappings. Which doesn't make sense, when the Klingons of Kirk's day don't. The "Tribbles" episode of DS9 established that some change did occur between Kirk's time and Picard's to make the Klingons look discernibly different. So for Enterprise's Klingons to look and dress the way they do is just a glaring flaw, in my opinion.
"Anyway, while Enterprise might get around to it in the future, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply never did. After all, no answer is ever going to be truly satisfying"
***I agree, but only because Enterprise -- as I see it -- messed up. But as far as a satisfying explanation for how the Klingons got from Original Trek to Next Gen, have you ever read Chris Claremont's Star Trek Graphic Novel "Debt of Honor"? It offered what I thought was an ingeniously clever explanation for the change. (It's also just a great Star Trek story in its own right. Definitely worth picking up.)
***I wouldn't mind if Enterprise proved me wrong, though, and DID actually have a similarly clever explanation of up its sleeve.
I laughed out loud at Data's greeting at the wedding "Welcome Ladies, Gentleman, and invited trans-gendered guests" or something to that effect.<<
I liked that as well. Made me think that Burgoyne was in attendance.
Evan B. - The actress that plays Cutler got offered a role doing some other show (I forget which) and so probably won't be back on ENT.
it wasn't terrible, it wasn't brilliant - it what trek has sadly become - mediocre
as a no-brain movie it was quite enjoyable, a bit of drama, a car chase, a battle. you could have used the script to do a movie with dolph lundgren in and it would have been relegated to a superior straight-to-video film.
i enjoyed it, just not trek-enjoyed it...
My biggest problem -other than the 'Wrath of Khan' ending- was the fact that Shinzon just seemed more petulant than villianous to me.
Well that *is* very sad news about Cutler. I can honestly say she was one of my favorite characters, never mind the regulars!
Posted by Jason
I agree, but only because Enterprise -- as I see it -- messed up [the Klingon question]. But as far as a satisfying explanation for how the Klingons got from Original Trek to Next Gen, have you ever read Chris Claremont's Star Trek Graphic Novel "Debt of Honor"? It offered what I thought was an ingeniously clever explanation for the change. (It's also just a great Star Trek story in its own right. Definitely worth picking up.)
It's been a while since I read "Debt of Honor," but I do remember enjoying the story. If I recall correctly, the explanation that story gave for the Klingons was the the very-humanoid Klingons we had seen throughout TOS were one Klingon race which was overthrown when the lumpy-headed imperial Klingon race came to power. Which is, sure, a good enough explanation, but one that ya gotta admit is a little less satisfying in light of subsequent TNG and DS9 stories.
The less problematic one is that Kahless in TNG is shown to be a lumpy-headed Klingon when in TOS he had been shown to be a more humanoid version. (Of course, you can explain that away since the TOS Kahless was a creation drawn from Kirk's memory.)
Then there's the fact that Kor, Kahless, and Kang--all shown to be humanoid Klingons in TOS--later show up in DS9 in all their lumpy-headed glory.
Of course, you can come up with some something to explain all of this, but unless there's a real good story linked to that explanation, I can understand why giving a canonical explanation isn't exactly a priority for the creators.
Anyway, as you point out that Trials and Tribble-ations episode of DS9 does establish that there's some explanation out there in the Star Trek universe, but the fact that Enterprise hasn't dealt with it yet doesn't necessarily mean that Enterprise has "messed up" After all, whatever explanation it is--Klingon Cultural Revolution (and counter-revolution, race-wide genetic restructuring, or whatever--may just have happened after the time Enterprise depicts.
(Digression: y'know, what bugged me most about that scene in Trials and Tribble-ations was that it was humans O'Brien and Bashir who were perplexed by the humanoid Klingons around them, asking Worf to explain. If there really is an explanation to be had in the Star Trek universe, it seems to me implausible that humans and the Federation wouldn't know it. From a fanboy continuity perspective, the scene would have worked better if it had been Odo asking, "Wait? Those are Klingons? Why aren't they lumpy like you, Worf?" Then Worf could say, "We don't like to discuss it." and O'Brien and Bashir could just smile knowingly in silence. But I digress...)
What makes StarTrek so great is that you can watch any single episode and enjoy the story, the action, and the effects.
This, I think, has been the aim of the movies, to be a great extra-long episode that appeals to general audicences (perhaps gaining new viewers for the television series).
Where Trek really has excelled has been in taking these individual episodes and joining them together to create a sense of Trek history, and to allow the audience to really get to know the characters. NextGen definitely did this the best, but even Voyager did better than most television. Compare the first few episodes of Voyager with the last few, notice anything? I find Harry Kim has really matured, Janeway has grown more confident in her abilities, Tom is less reckless, the doctor is more human, etc. And these changes took the entire series to occur, not just a single episode. This is the appeal of StarTrek.
Of course, Trek could be improved. I'd like to see more consistency. For instance, its hard to get to know T'Pol when you're too busy trying to figure out who really made first contact with earth, or perhaps its hard to figure out why a smart guy like Picard wouldn't be trying to simply turn off the ultimate weapon instead of destroying it and himself. Or, as I alluded to above, sometimes the concepts the writers want you to take for granted simply make you laugh.
But such is Trek, take it at face value.
Nemesis had a lot of wholes in its story line that made it hard to believe, yet it had good action and effects. Good movie, but not excellent.
The actress that plays Cutler got offered a role doing some other show (I forget which) and so probably won't be back on ENT.
Well that *is* very sad news about Cutler. I can honestly say she was one of my favorite characters, never mind the regulars!
Sad, my heinie!! It means the lady is getting work, and, apparently, steady work. I say congratulations to her; if ENT wants to reprise the character, they can always recast.
It seems that Data's "aging program" idea in "Inheritance" was scrapped after that episode. From that point on (in future timelines, etc) he was made to appear ageless. Even Spiner goes on to say Data was to remain ageless in appearance. I think the aging chip idea was swept under the rug.