Watched the three hour (!) program on CBS tonight listing the 100 heroes and villains in movie history. Most of them I agree with, but...Cruella DeVille and not Maleficent? Han Solo but not Luke Skywalker? Tarzan but not Sherlock Holmes? Can't say I'm loving some of the omissions. I think Jimmy Stewart was just a touch overrepresented.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at June 4, 2003 12:27 AM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingAw, those lists are all arbitrary to begin with, Peter. I wouldn't dwell on it.
I would say that Cruella was picked over Maleficent due to being more readily identifiable.
Though, personally, in terms of Disney villains that are female, Ursula trumps them all. Evil, with a nice touch of spunk, and just enough panache to actually obtain her goals(something few, if any Disney Villains succeed at.) Sure, she got wasted right after, but not by any flaw in her plan itself. In fact, it was because of something that wasn't even more than a means to an end that she was defeated, AFTER gaining supremacy over the Ocean.
And I'll refrain from further extolling the virtures of the Sea Witch now. ;)
Luke was the first hero I looked for. I was sorry to see his omission. I want a recount :)
It's a sad, sad day when you can blow up the original Death Star and turn the No. 3 villain of all time on his evil emporer and NOT earn a spot on the top 50 heros list.
Aw, c'mon. They had both Obi-Wan *and* Han in the top 50 heroes list. Luke would've been seriously overrepresenting Star Wars.
And I figure the Queen from Sleeping Beauty probably hit the quota for Disney evil Queens.
Maleficent was one of the nominees though.
Thought a few of the top choices were way overrated modern ones. I don't see Clarice Starling up around #6, and Indiana Jones at, I believe, #2 was just silly. Was mildly surprised that Atticus Finch got the top slot. It's not a bad choice, but an interesting one in that he's a more subtle hero than a lot of the top and modern choices.
Waiting for AFI to put the top 50 lists up on the website so I can figure out how many "matched pairs" there were; i.e. the hero and the villain from the same movie made it (or in Star Wars' case, a threefer).
Here you go, courtesy of the Associated Press.
Note that The Terminator was both a Top 50 Hero and a Top 50 Villain.
BC-Heroes & Villains-List, HFR,1074
Hold for release at 11 p.m. EDT
AFI list of top screen heroes, villains
With BC-Heroes & Villains
LOS ANGELES (AP) – The American Film Institute’s list of top 100 movie heroes and villains, with character and performer names (where applicable), and the film:
Heroes
1. Atticus Finch (Gregory Peck), ‘‘To Kill a Mockingbird.’’
2. Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford), ‘‘Raiders of the Lost Ark.’’
3. James Bond (Sean Connery), ‘‘Dr. No.’’
4. Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), ‘‘Casablanca.’’
5. Will Kane (Gary Cooper), ‘‘High Noon.’’
6. Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), ‘‘The Silence of the Lambs.’’
7. Rocky Balboa (Sylvester Stallone), ‘‘Rocky.’’
8. Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), ‘‘Aliens.’’
9. George Bailey (James Stewart), ‘‘It’s a Wonderful Life.’’
10. T.E. Lawrence (Peter O’Toole), ‘‘Lawrence of Arabia.’’
11. Jefferson Smith (James Stewart), ‘‘Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.’’
12. Tom Joad (Henry Fonda), ‘‘The Grapes of Wrath.’’
13. Oskar Schindler (Liam Neeson), ‘‘Schindler’s List.’’
14. Han Solo (Harrison Ford), ‘‘Star Wars.’’
15. Norma Rae Webster (Sally Field), ‘‘Norma Rae.’’
16. Shane (Alan Ladd), ‘‘Shane.’’
17. Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood), ‘‘Dirty Harry.’’
18. Robin Hood (Errol Flynn), ‘‘The Adventures of Robin Hood.’’
19. Virgil Tibbs (Sidney Poitier), ‘‘In the Heat of the Night.’’
20. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, (Paul Newman and Robert Redford), ‘‘Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.’’
21. Mahatma Gandhi (Ben Kingsley), ‘‘Gandhi.’’
22. Spartacus (Kirk Douglas), ‘‘Spartacus.’’
23. Terry Malloy (Marlon Brando), ‘‘On the Waterfront.’’
24. Thelma Dickinson and Louise Sawyer (Geena Davis and Susan Sarandon), ‘‘Thelma and Louise.’’
25. Lou Gehrig (Gary Cooper), ‘‘The Pride of the Yankees.’’
26. Superman (Christopher Reeve), ‘‘Superman.’’
27. Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein (Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman), ‘‘All the President’s Men.’’
28. Juror No. 8 (Henry Fonda), ‘‘12 Angry Men.’’
29. Gen. George Patton (George C. Scott), ‘‘Patton.’’
30. Luke Jackson (Paul Newman), ‘‘Cool Hand Luke.’’
31. Erin Brockovich (Julia Roberts), ‘‘Erin Brockovich.’’
32. Philip Marlowe (Humphrey Bogart), ‘‘The Big Sleep.’’
33. Marge Gunderson (Frances McDormand), ‘‘Fargo.’’
34. Tarzan (Johnny Weissmuller), ‘‘Tarzan the Ape Man.’’
35. Alvin York (Gary Cooper), ‘‘Sergeant York.’’
36. Rooster Cogburn (John Wayne), ‘‘True Grit.’’
37. Obi-Wan Kenobi (Alec Guinness), ‘‘Star Wars.’’
38. The Tramp (Charles Chaplin), ‘‘City Lights.’’
39. Lassie (Pal the dog), ‘‘Lassie Come Home.’’
40. Frank Serpico (Al Pacino), ‘‘Serpico.’’
41. Arthur Chipping (Robert Donat), ‘‘Goodbye, Mr. Chips.’’
42. Father Edward Flanagan (Spencer Tracy), ‘‘Boys Town.’’
43. Moses (Charlton Heston), ‘‘The Ten Commandments.’’
44. Jimmy ‘‘Popeye’’ Doyle (Gene Hackman), ‘‘The French Connection.’’
45. Zorro (Tyrone Power), ‘‘The Mark of Zorro.’’
46. Batman (Michael Keaton), ‘‘Batman.’’
47. Karen Silkwood (Meryl Streep), ‘‘Silkwood.’’
48. The Terminator (Arnold Schwarzenegger), ‘‘Terminator 2: Judgment Day.’’
49. Andrew Beckett (Tom Hanks), ‘‘Philadelphia.’’
50. Maximus (Russell Crowe), ‘‘Gladiator.’’
Villains
1. Hannibal Lecter (Anthony Hopkins), ‘‘The Silence of the Lambs.’’
2. Norman Bates (Anthony Perkins), ‘‘Psycho.’’
3. Darth Vader (David Prowse, voiced by James Earl Jones), ‘‘The Empire Strikes Back.’’
4. The Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), ‘‘The Wizard of Oz.’’
5. Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), ‘‘One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.’’
6. Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), ‘‘It’s a Wonderful Life.’’
7. Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), ‘‘Fatal Attraction.’’
8. Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), ‘‘Double Indemnity.’’
9. Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), ‘‘The Exorcist.’’
10. The Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), ‘‘Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.’’
11. Michael Corleone (Al Pacino), ‘‘The Godfather Part II.’’
12. Alex DeLarge (Malcolm McDowell), ‘‘A Clockwork Orange.’’
13. HAL 9000 (voiced by Douglas Rain), ‘‘2001: A Space Odyssey.’’
14. The Alien (Bolaji Badejo), ‘‘Alien.’’
15. Amon Goeth (Ralph Fiennes), ‘‘Schindler’s List.’’
16. Noah Cross (John Huston), ‘‘Chinatown.’’
17. Annie Wilkes (Kathy Bates), ‘‘Misery.’’
18. The Shark, ‘‘Jaws.’’
19. Captain Bligh (Charles Laughton), ‘‘Mutiny on the Bounty.’’
20. Man, ‘‘Bambi.’’
21. Mrs. John Iselin (Angela Lansbury), ‘‘The Manchurian Candidate.’’
22. The Terminator (Arnold Schwarzenegger), ‘‘The Terminator.’’
23. Eve Harrington (Anne Baxter), ‘‘All About Eve.’’
24. Gordon Gekko (Michael Douglas), ‘‘Wall Street.’’
25. Jack Torrance (Jack Nicholson), ‘‘The Shining.’’
26. Cody Jarrett (James Cagney), ‘‘White Heat.’’
27. The Martians, ‘‘War of the Worlds.’’
28. Max Cady (Robert Mitchum), ‘‘Cape Fear.’’
29. Rev. Harry Powell (Robert Mitchum), ‘‘The Night of the Hunter.’’
30. Travis Bickle (Robert De Niro), ‘‘Taxi Driver.’’
31. Mrs. Danvers (Judith Anderson), ‘‘Rebecca.’’
32. Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker (Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway), ‘‘Bonnie and Clyde.’’
33. Count Dracula (Bela Lugosi), ‘‘Dracula.’’
34. Dr. Szell (Laurence Olivier), ‘‘Marathon Man.’’
35. J.J. Hunsecker (Burt Lancaster), ‘‘Sweet Smell of Success.’’
36. Frank Booth (Dennis Hopper), ‘‘Blue Velvet.’’
37. Harry Lime (Orson Welles), ‘‘The Third Man.’’
38. Rico Bandello (Edward G. Robinson), ‘‘Little Caesar.’’
39. Cruella De Vil (voiced by Betty Lou Gerson), ‘‘One Hundred and One Dalmatians.’’
40. Freddy Krueger (Robert Englund), ‘‘A Nightmare on Elm Street.’’
41. Joan Crawford (Faye Dunaway), ‘‘Mommie Dearest.’’
42. Tom Powers (James Cagney), ‘‘The Public Enemy.’’
43. Regina Giddens (Bette Davis), ‘‘The Little Foxes.’’
44. Baby Jane Hudson (Bette Davis), ‘‘What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?’’
45. The Joker (Jack Nicholson), ‘‘Batman.’’
46. Hans Gruber (Alan Rickman), ‘‘Die Hard.’’
47. Tony Camonte (Paul Muni), ‘‘Scarface.’’
48. Verbal Kint (Kevin Spacey), ‘‘The Usual Suspects.’’
49. Auric Goldfinger (Gert Frobe), ‘‘Goldfinger.’’
50. Alonzo Harris (Denzel Washington), ‘‘Training Day.’’
I think Darth Vader should easily beat Hannibal Lecter. Plus, Agent Smith and T1000 belong in there somewhere. They are both legendary screen villains. And what about Kevin Spacey in Se7en. He was one messed up sick bastard.
Interestingly, about a third of the heroes are historical "real" people.
Only Bonnie and Clyde are "real" villians. (I'm assuming Amon Goeth is a composite Nazi.)
Re: Sherlock Holmes...I can sort of see why he didn't make the cut. Has there ever been a really accurate portrayal of Holmes on screen? I mean, yes, Basil Rathbone did a great job, but his Holmes was fighting Nazis and romancing women, yes? (Don't even get me started on Watson. In the stories, he's Holmes' competent foil. In the movies, he's a bloated upper-class twit. "I say I say I say, Holmes, dash it all, how could you have possible known?" If you ever want to hear a really good portrayal of both Holmes and Watson, check out the BBC radio series starring Clive Merrison.)
I liked Clarisse Starling being in there myself. And I saw Atticus Finch coming JUST before they announced him.
My major quibble was including Bonnie and Clyde on the list of VILLAINS and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid on the list of HEROES. I'm not sure either pair belong in either top 50 list, but shouldn't they be on the SAME one? Aren't those duos essentially morally equivalent? Pick one, people. . .
- Tony Tower
I think Jimmy Stewart was just a touch overrepresented.
I just think they chose the wrong character. Jefferson Smith was TWICE the man George Bailey was.
Skipped the list too quick. Smith was there too. Oops. They were however, ranked out of order.
Some glaring ommisions in my mind:
1. The Child Killer from "M"-Villain
2. John McClane from "Die Hard"-Hero
3. Jack Ryan from "Hunt For Red October"-Hero (Baldwin was the best Ryan)
4. Connor MacLeod from "Highlander"
-Hero
5. John Doe from "Se7en"-Villain
6. Godzilla from "Godzilla"-Villain
7. Conan from "Conan"-Hero
8. Neo from "The Matrix"-Hero
And finally I just want to say that Bond should have been the # 1 hero of all time. What other character can sustain a franchise for as long as he has? Tarzan died out. Sinbad died out. The Bond franchise has been around for over 20 years. If that doesn't prove that he has the staying power I don't know what does.
Actually, Amon Goeth was an actual historical figure. He was the commander of that camp, just like in the movie.
Also, there should be an asterisk beside Darth Vader's name.
*started as Hero, became Villain, became Hero again.
If they ever made a top 50 villians on TV my choice for the # 1 spot would be Rachel Green from friends. No other character has ever taken such joy in breaking up the relationships her male friends have around herb y annoncing her temporary love for them
I have to agree with the comment about the ommission of Peter Lorre from M. That was just a huge role.
As for Jimmy Stewert being over represented. I love that movie where he and the giant invisble rabbit steal all the money from the savings and loan.
Also, was anyone else disturbed that no singing cowboys made the heroes list. I mean come on Gene Autrey or maybe Curly from Oklahoma.
Personally, I think it's somewhat debatable whether a few of the people on the "villains" list actually belong there.
Two that jumped out at me were Alex DeLarge and HAL 9000. Okay, both take various actions that could be described as villainous (and Alex is most assuredly not a nice person), but I'm not sure that's enough.
In HAL's case, there's no ill intent, which I think needs to be fairly central. Granted, HAL could win villain status based on the film rule that the villain's always the most interesting character :-), but I don't think that's really the point here.
In Alex's case, the central issue of the film (and the book, but the film's what's on the list) is what's done TO him in the name of rehabilitation. I think the villains of the piece are really meant to be the ones who re-educate him and take away his beloved Ludwig Van.
You could get a nice debate going here over "what is a villain?" All I know is that when I think of those two films, I don't think of Alex or HAL and say "ah, the villain of the piece."
Thoughts?
TWL
Travis Bickle as a villain is an odd one too. He was too complex a nutty character to peg as a villain, especially since he wound up being a hero (though what he planned to do and was foiled was of course reprehensible).
One amusing thing about Indiana Jones is that contrary to the list posted above, when they did the summary of heroes and villains before the ad break they said "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" instead of "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Usually, they had been saying either the most representative or first film in a series.
As for Goeth, even if he was historical himself, some of the commentary said that in the film he was a composite of more than one figure.
I think The Matrix is too new to have neo rank as one of the top heroes.
It was nice to see some of the actors comment on their own characters and also that most of the clips appeared to be shown in their original aspect ratio.
Neil
I'm impressed that they made this list at all. Anytime someone assembles any sort of "top 100" collections, there's always huge dissention.
Speaking of which...
Heroes they should've included:
Heroes:
1) Ash (Bruce Campbell), the EVIL DEAD trilogy. How many heroes can hack off their own hand?
2) Marge Gunderson (Frances McDormand), "Fargo." There are lots of great detectives, but few do it while several months pregnant.
3) Yu Shu Lien (Michelle Yeoh), "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." Smart, skilled, and with the beauty that comes from experience.
Villains:
1) Boba Fett (Jeremy Bulloch), "The Empire Strikes Back." He was mysterious (at least until Attack of the Clones), he had the coolest gadgets, and he was the best of the dangerous.
2) Sheriff Wade (Kris Kristofferson), "Lone Star." A quietly brutal man.
Quoth Neil Ottenstein: One amusing thing about Indiana Jones is that contrary to the list posted above, when they did the summary of heroes and villains before the ad break they said "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" instead of "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
I noticed that, too. And I turned to my fiancee and said, "That's funny, 'cause really Temple of Doom was probably the one in which he acted the least heroic."
Further, Neil said: I think The Matrix is too new to have neo rank as one of the top heroes.
I don't think so, only because The Matrix was featured on AFI's "100 Years, 100 Thrills" list from last year (or the year before? I don't remember).
Personally, I would have put Rebecca De Mornay's Peyton Flanders character from "The Hand That Rocks the Cradle" on the villains list. This was a movie where my wife and I left handprints in each other knees from the tension.
Hello...
GENERAL ZOD?
Who else would have the temerity to correct the President of the United States into correcting the honorific "God" to his own damn name?!
And finally I just want to say that Bond should have been the # 1 hero of all time. What other character can sustain a franchise for as long as he has? Tarzan died out. Sinbad died out. The Bond franchise has been around for over 20 years. If that doesn't prove that he has the staying power I don't know what does.
How can you say Tarzan died out. Disney had a wonderful movie not too long ago. And his first movie was in 1918. That is 85 yrs. Bond is a mere babe at 41. ('62 to present)
>Bond should have been the # 1 hero of all time. What other character can sustain a franchise for as long as he has?
If you use that reasoning, Superman should have been much higher than 26. He's been a (money-making) hero for over fifty years -- sometimes in movies, sometimes TV ("Somebody saaaaaaave me..."), but consistently in his ongoing comics.
And as upset as we are that Luke Skywalker is missing, you know when the upcoming generation is our age they'll be livid if Harry Potter isn't in the top five...
Marge Gunderson
They included her.... and I agreed...
I also think it's funny that no one disagrees with Atticus Finch as the number one hero.
Of course one that well written and portrayed should have been number one. God what a character!
Travis
Screw the next generation, I was livid that Harry was not on the list ;)
I agree that Tarzan has been around longer, but what came of Disney's film? A direct to video sequel and a Saturday morning cartoon (I don't know if it is still even on the air). Everytime a Bond movie is released it is a major event. I'm just saying that the character is still vital after all these years. I just feel that his character has the biggest staying power of all the characters on the list. Tarzan had his heyday during the Johnny Weissmuller days of the 30's and 40's. Bond has had a major hit film in every decade from the 60's through today. I am not saying that Tarzan isn't a great hero, I'm just saying that Bond has had the staying power to be the # 1 film hero of all time. However this is just my opinion.
It's driving me up the wall! What movie was Maleficent in?
BTW, I agree. Bond should have been the #1 movie hero.
I am not saying that Tarzan isn't a great hero, I'm just saying that Bond has had the staying power to be the # 1 film hero of all time. However this is just my opinion.
I have no problem with Bond being rated higher than Tarzan. The Bond movies are a LOT better than the Tarzan movies. (I am a big fan of the Tarzan books..not so much the movies). I just questioned when you said Tarzan had died out. We will see if the upcoming WB series enhances the franchise or not.
NOTE: At least they picked the best Bond for the list.
BTW:
Max Cady (Robert Mitchum) over Max Cady (Robert De Niro). I don't think so.
NOTE: At least they picked the best Bond for the list.
Actually, during the show, they included clips from all of the Bond actors. Dr. No was the reference point, apparently, because it was the first movie. As to why they singled out Sean Connery in the text version of the list when a particular actor wasn't singled out in the broadcast...that's anybody's guess. :-)
It seems to me that the most memorial evil character to EVER appear in films was Dennis Hopper as Frank Booth in "Blue Velvet." ("Daddy wants blue velvet f@*%#$r.") A close second would be Henry from "Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer." Let the nightmares commence...
This list seems largely as stupid as the Oscars. I have to seriously wonder what the criteria are to appear on this list. Characters that were memorable? Frightening? That embodied an era or archetype? Why does Obi-Wan Kenobi rate on the list? He was never more than a supporting character in the first trilogy, and neither he nor any of the characters in the current would rate a blip.
It also feels odd to lump together real-life heroes like Norma Rae, Mohandas Gandhi, Moses and Woodward and Bernstein with fictional characters like Batman or Rocky. It just seems, I dunno, somewhat trivializing to refer to Gandhi or Oskar Schindler, or Woodward/Bernstein as memorable “movie characters.”
Some of the choices just perplex me. Why are Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid considered heroes, but Bonnie & Clyde considered villains? Weren’t they all villians? Mike Cassidy and Robert Leroy Parker were thieves and bankrobbers. What’s heroic about this? What, just because they were the main characters makes them the good guys? Perhaps it’s because of this, that the former were depicted as protagonists, and the latter as antagonists, but then if that’s the thinking, why is Michael Corleone or Travis Bickle listed as villains? Weren’t all of these people criminals?
Even dumber, why are Thelma and Louise listed as heroes? What did they do that was heroic? After shooting Thelma’s would-be rapist in the head (after he had already released Thelma), they robbed convenience stores and held a highway policeman at gunpoint. How was Andrew Becket a “hero”? How was George Bailey a “hero”? What did either do that was “heroic”? What, dying of AIDS makes you a “hero”? Wallowing in self-pity until an angel shows you why you shouldn’t makes you a “hero”? When I read stuff like this, it seems to me that he lists are not so much about memorable “heroes” and “villains,” but memorable characters, and which list a character ends up on seems largely arbitrary and trivial.
Steve Leavell: I'm assuming Amon Goeth is a composite Nazi.
Luigi Novi: No, he was real, as the movie indicated at the end. You can read about him here:
http://www.auschwitz.dk/Goeth.htm
Pete: I can sort of see why he didn't make the cut. Has there ever been a really accurate portrayal of Holmes on screen? I mean, yes, Basil Rathbone did a great job, but his Holmes was fighting Nazis and romancing women, yes? (Don't even get me started on Watson. In the stories, he's Holmes' competent foil. In the movies, he's a bloated upper-class twit.
Luigi Novi: If “accurate” means “faithful to the source material,” then Michael Keaton’s Batman—and for that matter, all the portrayals of him from those shitty Burton/Schumacher films shouldn’t have gotten within 100 feet of the list.
DougH: Neo from "The Matrix"-Hero
Luigi Novi: I don’t think that character has achieved iconic status.
DougH: What other character can sustain a franchise for as long as he has?
Luigi Novi: Kirk and Spock come to mind. Why wasn’t Captain Kirk included? He was a larger than life character.
Tom Keller: Also, there should be an asterisk beside Darth Vader's name. *started as Hero, became Villain, became Hero again.
Luigi Novi: You could make a similar notation for Alex DeLarge, in that he goes from being a rapist and criminal to a victim, depending one whether or not you sympathize with him after he is caught and “treated.”
Chris: If they ever made a top 50 villians on TV my choice for the # 1 spot would be Rachel Green from friends. No other character has ever taken such joy in breaking up the relationships her male friends have around herb y annoncing her temporary love for them
Luigi Novi: First, one male friend: Ross. Not Joey. Not Chandler. Ross.
Second, she’s never done this. Not once. When she first told this to Ross when he was with Julie, she was drunk, she told him that she used to feel this way, and that she was over it. She wasn’t “joyful” about it, she was very upset the next day, and it was Ross who decided to kiss her and break up with Julie. She initially had a change of heart because he made a very hurtful list of things about her that crushed her feelings. Him. Not her. When she finally did come around, their relationship lasted a year, and would’ve gone on longer if he had been more understanding about her need to establish her career, and if he hadn’t gone out and slept with the first women he found after they had a fight and suggested they take a break.
With Bonnie, she was rather petty about scheming to have her shave her head again, but only told Ross about her feelings when he cornered her about it, and that second relationship with Rachel ended because he decided to break up with her.
With Emily, she intended to tell Ross, but ultimately decided not to. That fell apart because he said the wrong name at the wedding, and because Emily was so humiliated that she couldn’t look past it and chose to throw away her marriage.
Third, I’d bang Rachel five ways to Sunday anyway. :-)
AlanM: I don't think so, only because The Matrix was featured on AFI's "100 Years, 100 Thrills" list
Luigi Novi: The fact that the film was iconic doesn’t mean that the main character is. Star Wars made the list, but Luke Skywalker didn’t.
Travis: I also think it's funny that no one disagrees with Atticus Finch as the number one hero.
Luigi Novi: DougH opined that James Bond should’ve been #1.
Well, a more thorough reading of the list reveals that Frank Booth WAS included after all. But Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal in the #1 spot?!? Come on people, have you ever LOOKED at this guy. He’s an old, kinda pudgy English guy! He is NOT scary!! (Especially not in comparison to Brian Cox’s truly eerie Hannibal portrayal in “Manhunter.”)
Luigi (and others): It pays to remember that this is "The AFI's Top 100 list." Not "The Top 100 List as Handed Down From On High." It's one organization's opinion, and as such is no more or less valid than anyone else's. (How much attention people pay to any one list is another matter, of course.)
As far as Butch & Sundance, two things: 1) Being a criminal is not the same thing as being a villain. Luke Skywalker was a criminal (and one who killed thousands of people, let's not forget). Anyone who wants to watch a movie in which Robin Hood is presented as a villain and the Sherrif of Nottingham as a good guy, raise your hand. (Actually, that does sound interesting as an exercise in storytelling, but I can't see it becoming the accepted version.) For that matter, who's a hero depends on where you're standing--I doubt the Germans considered Patton a hero, for example.
2) There's a difference between "a hero" in real life and "the hero of a movie." (That's why the term "protagonist" is crucial.) No one's going to watch a show titled "100 Years, 100 Protagonists and Antagonists" so the looser terms "hero" and "villain" are used. That doesn't mean they intend the terms to be used in the same way we would describing real people. If you asked a hundred people who the hero of "It's A Wonderful Life" is (phrased that way) "George Bailey" would be the overwhelming answer. You have to take the terms as intended, not imposing your own definitions on them.
(I'll add: I've been reading a lot of William Goldman's nonfiction lately, so I can assure you that the intent of "Butch & Sundance" is not to explore them as criminals, but as two people who achieved the improbable goal of recapturing their past glory. Whereas "Bonnie & Clyde" is about the characters as criminals, as I understand.)
(Especially not in comparison to Brian Cox’s truly eerie Hannibal portrayal in “Manhunter.”)
Absolutely... creepy, slimy, Brian Cox... brilliant performance (I prefer Manhunter to the other films. But I love Michael Mann... in a "I love his movies" way.)
Luigi Novi: DougH opined that James Bond should’ve been #1.
Okay... missed that one...
Bond, okay... but I think that Indiana Jones deserved to be over Bond... Bond is cool, debonair, etc. But Jones is a more affable, likeable hero... His life is a disaster curve... much like most people...
But Atticus was one of the greats...
now onto the Sherlock stuff... the best Sherlock was Jeremy Brett... Basil should have gotten a nod for his Sheriff of Nottingham though.
Travis
I generally find these AFI list shows frustrating to watch. Did they ever explain what criteria they were using to define hero and villain?
There were several picks for characters I would never define as, "Hero" just as the protaganist in their story. Anyone else find that?
And Guh, Mr. Chips.
Kirk and Spock come to mind. Why wasn’t Captain Kirk included? He was a larger than life character.
It appears that one or both of them may have been considered. In the opening credits sequence, there were clips of some of the included characters, as well as some that didn't make the list(s). Among them:
Luke Skywalker (with the "I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you." clip).
A three-shot of Kirk, Spock & McCoy (went by pretty quickly...looked to be from ST II, when they're watching the Genesis tape).
The T1000.
The Ghostbusters (walking to the base of the temple to confront Gozer).
As to some characters' criteria for inclusion, that was largely touched on in the accompanying commentary on the show. F'rinstance, George Bailey was considered a hero because of the decisions he made prior to his suicide attempt...saving his brother, sacrificing his own wants and dreams for the people of Bedford Falls, turning down Potter's lucrative job offer because it wasn't the right thing to do for the Building & Loan customers, etc.
Only Bonnie and Clyde are "real" villians.
Joan Crawford was a real "villain," too, with the added indignity of Angela Lansbury-- Jessica Fletcher herself!-- corroborating in the commentary that all that wirehanger stuff indeed happened.
The omission of Holmes bothered me, too. Brett's version may not count for this list because it was from TV, and Rathbone's may have been held back by his material (though not his Hound Of The Baskervilles ). But so many actors have played Holmes in so many films that he's surely as worthy as Tarzan.
I'd have placed Superman higher than 26, too. We're debating the definition of "hero" and he's its very personification, at least of the larger-than-life kind. But then I wasn't voting.
Mike
Quoth Alan M: Quoth Neil Ottenstein: One amusing thing about Indiana Jones is that contrary to the list posted above, when they did the summary of heroes and villains before the ad break they said "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" instead of "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
I noticed that, too. And I turned to my fiancee and said, "That's funny, 'cause really Temple of Doom was probably the one in which he acted the least heroic."
Huh? In Raiders, Jones is a hired mercenary. In Crusade, he is trying to rescue his father. He's personally involved in the outcome in both cases.
In Temple, he gets the sacred stone like he was asked to do and then he goes and tries to free the children! This is probably the most selfless and heroic act by Indiana Jones in any of the 3 movies.
I would have rank James Bond as number 1. I would include John McClane from Die Hard, Mad Max and John Shaft for movies heroes.
The list of the 400 nominees that AFI members had to choose from for the final hero/villain rankings is available on AFI.com as a .pdf link. Lots of interesting characters didn't make the cut. Check it out...
Wishing to rank James Bond the #1 hero due to the longevity of his film series raises an interesting question about the criteria involved in such a ranking. Is one's heroic status to be judged on how much money one's movies raked in at the box office? Were that to be the criteria, Atticus Finch, a character who cared deeply for his family, who worked to instill good values in his children, and who Fought the Good Fight against overwhelming odds, would not even be on the list. (Which, I've no doubt, would be just fine to those who are scornful of him since he didn't 'kick ass.')
Likewise, the comments about George Bailey. Here was a character who gave and gave and gave of himeself throughout his entire life, but there are those on this list who would remove him from the poll entirely because he lost hope (or faith or whatever), on a day that would give Job hives, and comtemplated suicide. It should be noted that, when shown the results of his wish to never have existed, he, rather than complaining that he was still depressed and still wanted to off himself, went back to his responsibilities. And exactly what is a hero besides one who gets up when he/she/it stumbles? A list that included only those who never made a mistake would be a poor one indeed.
The comments about Protagonists and Antagonists based on historical characters are fascinating, but it should be noted that the characters on the lists are not real characters. They are movie characters. The names may be the same and some exploits may have been put into their movies, but the characters became fictions the second the scripts were finalized and the cameras started rolling. (Stephen King has a short digression about such fictionalization in his assessment of The Amityville Horror, in Danse Macabre.)
Finally, I'm waiting for the debate between the various STAR TREK cliques about the virtues of including either Kirk and Spock or Picard and Riker.
Now that I have read the lists again, I would note that the inclusion of Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair in The Exorcist) is also questionable. After all, the villainy was not caused by the young Regan but by the demon with which she was possessed.
I think they should've done 100 Best Heroes one night, 100 Best Villains on another night. The AFI website has the 400 nominated characters. I didn't look at the whole list but many of the characters people sorely miss are there.
Luke Skywalker missing the list is sad, somewhat surprising, but not much. Even though Luke, in my mind, represents most of the Star Wars audience when the movies came out (the kid who dreams of adventures), he isn't as cool as Han Solo. I always knew I could be Luke, but I couldn't be Han, he's too damn cool.
I'm just glad Freddy Krueger made the list. A glance at the "Thrills" list found Halloween, Night of the Living Dead, but no A Nightmare on Elm Street. Maybe I missed it, but I doubt it.
Bill
Atticus Finch? What did he do that was so great? He's basically a hero for *not* being an ignorant racist? That makes him more heroic than James Bond?
And Gandhi is on the list? Ok, sure. He was as heroic as anybody...but #21? If you're not going to make Gandhi #1, don't put him on the list.
I started to notice a trend. Anyone else notice that only two of the top 10 heroes were women, only seven out of all 50 heroes? (counting Thelma and Louise as one choice, and their inclusion was a little iffy to me, too.)
Whereas 6 of the top 10 villains were women. Women comprised 15 out of the whole list, including Bonnie of "Bonnie and Clyde." That doesn't include the Alien, since it appeared to be the drone alien from the first movie, not the Queen Alien from "Aliens" (who was a hell of a lot scarier to me, but what do I know).
What this says about AFI's list or Hollywood in general, I can't say. Maybe nothing at all. It just struck me.
P.S. My pick for number-one hero would definitely be Superman. I was afraid it would be Luke Skywalker, and was glad to see Atticus Finch instead. But Superman is the only hero on the list who can say, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the American way" - and no one laughs. Not even Bond could get away with that. (okay, the British way)
Atticus Finch? What did he do that was so great? He's basically a hero for *not* being an ignorant racist? That makes him more heroic than James Bond?
That he stood up amongst adversity to declare that fact makes him more heroic than Bond ever could be. Heroism does not always have to involve action. In fact, many times it has to do with in-action and an internal matter which is more important.
Who is the greater hero... the man who saves the world, or the man who helps the helpless silently? Probably a debate that can go on forever.
Travis
I'm very disappointed that Luke Skywalker is not on the list. Maybe not number 1, but not in the top 50? And the argument that the "heroes" are the protagonists doesn't work with Obi-Wan. If Luke would have been too much Star Wars, then take Luke instead of Obi-Wan.
And what about Sam Spade? I checked the original list of 400 and didn't even see him there.
The man who will risk everything to do the right thing is a hero. One could argue that heroes essentially behave as we *should* behave but are to selfish to do so.
Elizabeth:
I commented on my Web site about how top-heavy in the villain category women were, as opposed to being heroes (I won't get into a black/white thing, though Shaft probably deserved a nod simply for historical impact -- probably more so than Keaton's Batman).
Anyway, women, for some reason, have made the most impressive villains, going back to the Wicked Witch of the West. Disney certainly believed as much (start naming the Big Bads in Disney films, for example).
There was a period in film in which villains (the Vincent Price characters) were somewhat feminized (again, Disney does the same with Scar and Jafar). I don't know what that implies. It is interesting to think about. I mean, the more sexual a woman is, the more dangerous she seems (Alex from Fatal Attraction, Phyllis from Double Imdemnity, Nurse Ratched in her way). Perhaps it's that overt control she has over a man. *Shrug*
I would also point out that Ripley and Clarice Starling were distinctly masculine (Ripley was written as a male, I think, and Starling/Lector is a good example of gender switching -- Sterling is reserved, taciturn. Lector is flirtatious, seductive...)
Luke is a little whiny punk, not a hero ;)
I must admit to be disapointed that Godzilla was not a villain :(
I thought that the #1 hero was a PC move.
So, here's the two-fers match-ups (where a hero directly fought a villain and vice versa):
#6 Starling vs. #1 Lecter.
#37 Kenobi and #14 Solo vs. #3 Vader
#9 Bailey vs. #6 Potter
#8 Ripley vs. #14 Alien
#13 Schindler vs. #15 Goeth
#48 Terminator vs. #22 Terminator :-)
#46 Batman vs. #46 Joker
#3 Bond vs. #48 Goldfinger
8 total pairs, roughly one in six of the best had a similarly strong foe.
I was disappoited neither Harper Lee or Thomas Harris was even mentioned once.
Without them the top characters would not exist.
Writers get shafted again.
I was disappoited neither Harper Lee or Thomas Harris was even mentioned once.
Without them the top characters would not exist.
Writers get shafted again.
Well, I can't say I'd necessarily agree with the order, but most of my picks would be there.
As for Atticus Finch being number one on the heroes side, I say "You're damned right." Harper Lee's Atticus Finch (and Gregory Peck's depiction of the character) make me proud to be attending law school...if I can be half the lawyer and the man that Atticus was, I'll be pretty pleased with myself.
As for Jimmy Stewart being over-represented, I'd disagree. Both George Bailey and Jefferson Smith are incredible performances by the man, and display the craft of acting at its finest. Of course, I'm a huge Jimmy Stewart fan anyway, but those two characters, Stewart's best performances, display the craft of acting and the qualities of heroism, and for that, they'd be high on my personal list.
As I said, I'd quibble about the order, and maybe the omission of Luke Skywalker, but aside from that, I'd agree with the choices themselves.
Disappointed by a few choices... The glaring... GLARING lack of Spidey from the list, for one. Holmes should have been there as well. He's one of the greats.
And Joel Schumacher for villain! He ruined Batman movies!
Oh, yes... GODZILLA shoulda been on the list! GO GO GODZILLA!
A HUGE "Villain" omission: Ricardo Montalban as Khan in "Star Trek II". He's the villain by which all other Star Trek movie villains are always measured against. Additionally, any sci-fi movie review from the past two decades usually judges the film's villain against Darth Vader or Khan. Easily overlooked, and should've been there.
Yes, absolutely, without question: Luke Skywalker belonged on that list. 20 million Luke Skywalker action figures and pajamas can't be wrong.
And why isn't Bela Lugosi's classic portayal of Dracula MUCH higher on the list? (Oh yeah. Because it's pretty much an arbitrarily chosen list, requiring at least some inclusion of industry "trendy" people like Meryl Streep....)
I'm for Lugosi's Dracula being on the list, but I thought we should also have seen either Karloff's Frankenstien or one of Chaney's characters. The makeup on Phantom of the Opera is still just damn scary to me.
I had very few real disagreements with the selections made. I think Superman should have ranked higher, of course. I don't think Kirk should have been nominated as an individual. Instead, I think the Enterprise crew should have been nominated as a whole, and should have been in the top 50 somewhere. I was mildly disappointed that Khan didn't make the list, but gave up on him once they hit the top 15 or so.
The biggest problem I had was with the villain top 4 as a whole. I would have put money on Darth Vader and the Wicked Witch of the West taking the top two spots, one way or the other. I daresay that those two are the most iconic villains in cinematic history. There's no way that Bates or Lechter have had the impact of either of those two.
I was happy with Indy at #2, and was surprised to see Finch at #1 for a minute or so. Then I realized that, particularly at this point in history, there was no more wonderful choice for top hero. While most of the others on the list are fun and exciting heroes, Atticus Finch is a role model.
I didn't watch the show, but I will say this: When I was a kid, Maleficent scared me. Cruella de Vil didn't. The moment when the camera focuses on a dark, cold fireplace and Maleficent's eyes suddenly open in the darkness, for my money, was and is far scarier than any amount of shrieking about Dalmatian pelts...
Paul
Oh, and even though I can't say I was terribly surprised, I was still kinda disappointed that the Predator didn't make the cut.
PAD and everyone else: Why put any stock in this show? The AFI are just a bunch of people making a damn list. For all its pomp and circumstance, the AFI show is no more important than TV Guide's latest list of great something-or-others (from which they invariably leave out something that weakens the entire premise of listmaking) or the E! show Rank, the show that declares people like Chris Rock and Tom Green to be among the 25 funniest people in the world. Sorry, but "list" shows are worthless.
The AFI are the same group that declared Citizen Kane to be the #1 movie in American history. Gee, thanks. We never would have figured that one out. Their 100 Funniest Movies list includes movies that were never funny, movies that haven't been funny for decades, and movies that less than ten percent of living people even remember. Buster Keaton was funny, it's true, but there's been a lot funnier stuff since. For a more approachable list -- one that, while you may not agree with it, you'll enjoy reading it -- follow this link: http://www.seanbaby.com/ifls/index.html -- Here's a quote from irreverent internet funnyman Seanbaby: "Keeping [#96, Laurel and Hardy's Sons of the Desert] on the Top 100 Funniest Films list is like Consumer Reports adding Horse Drawn Carriage to their list of Top 100 Greatest Automobiles." Whether you agree or not, it's certainly easier to associate with. Forgive them for having not yet finished it.
Oh, and Peter: Well said over on Newsarama. I prefer to think of [YJ] as underrated by its detractors.
Couldn't agree with you more. I was about to comment when I saw yours.
Sherlock Holmes deserved a spot in the top 10!
I'm grateful that Superman and Tarzan were mentioned at all. I would've liked to see Luke Skywalker on the list, but I can live with the choice of Han Solo.
But ANY list of movie "heroes" that includes Butch Cassidy and omits Hopalong Cassidy is totally f---ed up!
Mike
Don't know if this was mentioned or not cause I didn't have time to read the whole blog... But why did Freddy Kruger get on the list and not Michael Myers... Freddy was cool and all for a villian but Michael was far crepuer because he could almost exist...
PAD and everyone else: Why put any stock in this show? The AFI are just a bunch of people making a damn list
Yes, exactly. And it's fun to debate. I agree that some of the responses have gotten a bit vociferous, but, what the hey, it beats the political debates.
Their 100 Funniest Movies list includes movies that were never funny, movies that haven't been funny for decades, and movies that less than ten percent of living people even remember
Sorry, I can't agree with you on that one. Like anything else, it's a matter of perspective. No two people are going to laugh at the same things all the time, and while I agree that this makes such a list irrelevent, it doesn't mean that something isn't funny based on whether or not X or Y laughs.
Furthermore, the list is not "The 100 Funniest Movies" but "100 Years, 100 Laughs" (IIRC). It wouldn't make sense if a list with that name consisted only of movies from the past two or three decades. The Seanbaby quote doesn't make sense; the horse-drawn carriage obviously isn't an automobile, and "Sons of the Desert" is obviously a comedy, so it's apples and oranges. What would you think of a list titled "100 Years, 100 Automobiles" that didn't include the Model T? Just because not many people drive them now doesn't mean they were never important.
Gee, thanks. We never would have figured that one out.
So now they're being criticized for a statement most people would agree with? Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't...
In point of fact, if you go to the AFI website (www.afi.com), which Seanbaby and pals obviously didn't, you'll note that a film's legacy was one of the specific criteria the voters were grading on. Which makes sense, since their goal is to celebrate film history. (Their definition of "hero" and "villain" for the purposes of their list.)
They also explain how the films were voted on. A lot of people need to remember that. This was not a list selected by one person with the intent of placing one character above another for specific reason. Nor is it automatically the unanimous opinion of every member of the AFI. A lot of people are trying to make this something it isn't.
A film had to come out before January 1, 2002 to be considered for this list. As such, SPIDER-MAN missed the cut-off. Harry Potter and the Fellowship of the Ring (hmmm.... there's a parody in that if you take it as a title...) were eligible by a couple of months. Gandalf was on the nomination list, the only representative of LOTR. Harry Potter was not even nominated.
A lot of the other characters being noted as glaring ommissions WERE on the nominations list, they just didn't make the final cut.
Frankly, I think Kirk, Spock, and Khan didn't amke the cut because despite ten STAR TREK films, TREK is still seen as primarily a television phenomenon.
Much more commentary on this at my new blog.
Was anyone bothered by the inclusion of "Man" as a villain, to wit, the villain in BAMBI? I don't hunt, but I know many good men and women who do. To me, this just seemed more like a pc jab at hunters than a serious entry in the list.
For a lot of people, the death of Bambi's mother was a major point in their childhood. I suspect that the hunter (and the Wicked Witch of the West, and Captain Hook, and possibly Darth Vader) have had more impact on peoples' lives than Hannibal Lechter ever has (or will). (And remember my point about this not being a designed list--any perceived message is likely in your imagination.)
Gary Robinson:
Was anyone bothered by the inclusion of "Man" as a villain, to wit, the villain in BAMBI? I don't hunt, but I know many good men and women who do. To me, this just seemed more like a pc jab at hunters than a serious entry in the list.
Actually, that was my favorite choice, but mainly because I don't like people. :-)
I suppose I'm not really stating my issues with the AFI, I'm merely lashing out, seemingly at random, and you're absolutely right; I'm being unfair.
My big problem with what they do is... why all the fanfare? Why is their list so important? Why is it important at all? The AFI lists are a pointless exercise in pomp and circumstance that just serve to let a group of (as far as I'm concerned, anyway) random people to pretend their personal choices carry any weight.
Tons of people agree that Citizen Kane is among the greatest movies ever made. There are plenty of other movies that are up there that didn't make the list, or even get voted on. Unless every single one of these people has seen every American movie ever made and each represent in attitude and taste each aspect of American culture, the list says nothing of value.
I can't see that it has no value. A friend and I have started watching through the original list of 100, as it happens (which might be why I'm a bit defensive here). I find it of value because it's a list of films that people who know something about film believe to be worth seeing. That doesn't mean it's all-inclusive or definitive (although being voted on by a group does reduce the effect of individual bias). But it's a good starting point. Without the list I would probably never have seen "Yankee Doodle Dandy" or "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?" but I'm glad I did. And if the lists get other people to take a second look at good films they might otherwise have overlooked, then that's of value too.
I disagreed with putting Thelma and Louise on the "hero" list. I suppose I have a skewed perception from being a prosecutor (lawyer, therefore villain, but public interest, therefore hero...) but even as a high school student when that movie came out, I kept a body count of probable police fatalities in that last chase. If they belong anywhere it's probably as "villain." I did think it was pretty cool to see someone else voice a similar opinion in this thread, though. We rock.
Atticus Finch was a perfectly reasonable choice to be the top hero. One post inquired whether merely being NOT racist was heroic, but when you are the only non-racist in town, I'd have to say yes, that is impressive, and when you take a stand for it, it rises to the level of heroism. It's all the more impressive for being an heroic feat that virtually everyone could accomplish but that almost no one did, at least in that era. (No opinion expressed as to what the percentages are now.)
Julio:
My own film nerd comments about the definition of villains, heroes, and anti-heros.
You're mostly correct that Travis Bickle is an antihero. In fact, that's the whole point of the movie! Because Travis, a certifiable nutjob, lets loose his rage on "the right people" after failing to assasinate a presidential candidate, he is hailed as a hero!
The irony of AFI's list is that it labels Dirty Harry, a classic antihero of the film noir style (not someone you'd want to hang out with but definitely preferable to pretty much everyone else in the film), a hero, when really he and Bickle should be in the same support group.
(Scorsese based Bickle on John Wayne's character in "The Searchers," after all, which is telling.)
I've never seen "Friends," but I find it hard to believe there could be a greater TV program villain than Killer Bob.
Regarding the Movie list, I'm another who thinks that, if Hans Gruber makes it, than John McClane should, also. I don't understand how Clarice Starling could possibly beat out Ripley, or anyone else, for that matter. Frank Booth should have been much higher.
Okay, so the list of omissions is long and glaring (no Luke Skywalker? Heresy!), but I was still overjoyed to see the shark from Jaws get a nod! Few villians get quite the same primal reaction from moviegoers, and I was glad that a few "non-actors" got recognized. Hell, if Lassie gets credit as a hero, then "Bruce" deserves his due.
Now if only the AFI will do The AFI's Top 100 Stupid Award Shows and The AFI's Top 100 Superficial Bullshit Lists.
"24. Thelma Dickinson and Louise Sawyer (Geena Davis and Susan Sarandon), ??Thelma and Louise.??"
Agree with those who feel they should be classed as villains. Though, even as such, they hardly merit inclusion in the list.
"Has there ever been a really accurate portrayal of Holmes on screen?"
As someone else pointed out, Jeremy Brett got it down to a "T". Even Moriarty was perfect.
"The Bond movies are a LOT better than the Tarzan movies."
Both are so far from the books in some ways that they can scarcely be counted as representing the original stories.
"If they ever made a top 50 villians on TV my choice for the # 1 spot would be Rachel Green from friends."
If you're going to go the tv movie route (and pity they didn't, because I know some which were far better than 99% of what Hokeywood puts up on one cinema screens), then I'd unhesitatingly nominate the main protagonists of the superb CITIZEN X to the lists.
The true story of a hunt for a horrifying serial killer in Soviet Russia, this film features a genuine monster (Chiakotely(sp?) who gruesomely sexually assaults and brutally kills over 50 people, most of them children. On the flip side is Burakov who spends more time fighting the Soviet regime as he does trying to catch this monster. The lack of support by the government - sometimes going as far as outright obstructionism - all the while the locality's children are being killed off, is a good part of the reason why Burakov winds up suffering a near complete breakdown in the course of the relentless ten year investigation. Yet, he doggedly resumes the chase as soon as he is fit enough to do so, despite ongoing problems from the higher-ups. ("There are no serial killers in the Soviet Union. It is a decadent Western penomena." - Politbureau officer)
To the poster named Alan M:
It is curious as to how you talk about Indiana Jones being at his least heroic in the Temple of Doom, yet in an earlier thread in which I was arguing about stereotypes, you resorted to insulting language, which is also something very un-heroic, and which makes you no better than me.
It is curious as to how you felt that way, yet you went to all that trouble to point out on a board that isn't even your own, how you thought that my arguments were invalid and ridiculous.
Needless to say, if that's how you're going to behave on a website that isn't even your own, then your arguments bear no weight and they lose credibility.
Perhaps you'd care to explain why you resorted to insulting language and sneering when you didn't have to? And most importantly, perhaps you'd care to explain why you abused Mr. David's board? Yes, why on earth did you abuse Mr. David's website for the purpose of posting insulting messages against someone whom you don't even know personally? Are you really a fan of PAD's?
If you want to send me an e-mail to discuss this whole matter in private, you may do so. I have posted my e-mail address in the form there, and if you want to contact me in private to explain yourself, go right ahead.
i think harry should have been on the list as well, even though he is a litlle new... but Neo, he shouldn't be close, he is way too over rated...