PeterDavid.net

I thought the whole thing was pretty "eh" - the pre-school sequence with the Order seemed overlong and unnecessary, and the plot didn't really get going until the last third of the book for me. Not to mention - what actually happened in terms of the overall arc of the series in this book?

What struck me about the prophecy is how close it is to Jack Kirby's Orion/Darkseid prophecy. You know, they will meet at the firepits of Apokalyps and one will die at the other's hands... I won't pretend that Rowling "stole" this ending, since it's probably derived from an older, classical literary source. But, really, wasn't it something we all expected?

I honestly hope Ms. Rowling has some greater plot twists or ideas for the concluding two books, besides the possible death of more central characters. For instance, the "wizarding world" seems remarkably isolated and awkward. Their isolation from the non-magical world has given them a social structure that's charming but awkward - very much like the world of black Americans before they sought to be integrated with white Americans. I'd even dare say that Voldemort gains his strength from that very segregation. If the magical world was out in the open, he'd have a lot harder time playing Hitler Junior.

It's good to hear another writer discussing the Potter books. Surprising that there has not been more talk of them in the comic community as the crossover appeal of serial fiction should be fairly high.

I can't argue about the pacing, however I don't know that the episodic nature isn't a convention of the british boarding school books.

I had the same feeling at the end, as well. All of this over one bloody sentence that basically says it's Harry or Voldemort? Haven't we all figured that out by now? Doesn't Voldemort already have a pretty good idea of what it says? There is one point that should be made, however: It might not be Harry. If the big twist at the end of book 7 is that Neville is the one to bring down Voldemort, then this book (seen as one chapter in the 7 volume series) is a great bit of foreshadowing. No greater red herring than the hero of the books not having is name in the title.

A reversal worthy of William Goldman, I believe.

And PAD, as a father, wasn't Sirius your identification point? I know he was mine, especially in the last 7 months after my son was born. I liked Sirius before then, now he is my strongest way into the books.

Yes, we've all heard prophecies like that one before in fiction. The noteworthy thing is that Harry reacts like a real person, not a fictional hero: he doesn't square his jaw and say "Yes, I shall accept my destiny and take up the Sword of Griffindor to slay my foe," but instead is rather taken aback. (Remember, Harry isn't a warrior or killer like most of these Destined Heroes.)

Well, I'm fairly convinced now that Dumbledore is, in fact, evil. Either that or he's a complete incompetent. I don't understand his difficulty finding a DADA teacher when he has his whole Order at his beck and call. Instead, he allows the Ministry to bring in an abusive and unbalanced woman. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

A lot of Harry's current emotional problems tie back to things in his life that could have been prevented. Being with the Dursley's was fine, but being emotionally abused by them for eleven years certainly wasn't (something even McGonagall noticed might happen at the beginning of the first book). A few well-placed threatening words seem to be enough to keep them in line. Why now and not eleven years ago? Don't even get me started about DADA teachers and the Tri-Wizard cup.

As for the big "revelation," it really wasn't. Of course, since Dumbledore is conveniently the only one who knows the prophecy now (since Trelawney doesn't remember her visions), who knows if what we were told is the whole truth? It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore was lying - AGAIN - to either protect or, as is coming more apparent (to me, anyway) manipulate Harry.

Sorry, went off on a bit of a rant. We're having too much fun with this over at my livejournal.

I'm 24 years old. Last year, a friend got me the first happy potter as a joke. I thought it was funny. A week later, I was born during a weekend and decided to pick it up and see what all the fuss was about. I was hooked! I actually liked the book. Then, came the second which I bought three days later. It was not nearly as good as the first book, but good non-the less. The third book was better then the second, but again, not as good as the first.

Then came the fourth good. Man, that was by far the best book of the series. The whole book blew me away especially the ending. I thought it was awesome. Now, we come to over to the 5th book. I can honestly say I am disappointed. First off, the first 100 or so pages sucked. There is no doubt in my mind. It gave no revelation to anything. Did she have writers block at this moment?

The book did overall have it's moments. I honestly don’t know where to put this book along with the rest. The last 100 pages was the only thing that was worth reading in my opinion. Maybe I’d consider it the worst of the series, who knows. But, overall – a DECENT book.

Oh, btw – if you know any grammar or spelling errors on my part. I’m dyslexic and my apologies. Thanks!

WHY I LOVE J.K. ROWLING (in 84 words or less):

I have never read any of the Harry Potter books. I have seen both films and have been impressed with neither.

However, I do owe a debt of gratitude to J.K. Rowling. My girlfriend LOVES these books and takes them out and reads them (and sometimes rereads them) while she tans-- bringing back some amazingly good looking and extremely flattering tan lines. My girlfriend's going to tan no matter what I say anyway... So, keep them coming J.K.! The longer the better!

LMFAO - That nigga say tanlines...

I read the book in about two days. I thought it was compelling in that it draggged us along, seeing just how bad Harry's life could get. That part was nice, but I agree that the payoff was way too minor for all the build up.

Additionally, Rowling continues to insert side plots that don't really need to be there. In this case, Hagrid's little brother. That could easily have been excised and nothing lost.

My main problem with the previous books is that Rowling seems to write hell bent for leather for 90 percent of the book then end with action. Following the action, however, we spend 60 pages with Dumbledore explaining to Harry what really happened and why it happened. At least with this book, that post-action exposition was mercifully limited.

My favorite part took place in the hospital wing with Ron and Umbridge when Ron made little clip-clopping sounds. Quite funny.

My girlfriend LOVES these books and takes them out and reads them (and sometimes rereads them) while she tans-- bringing back some amazingly good looking and extremely flattering tan lines. My girlfriend's going to tan no matter what I say anyway... So, keep them coming J.K.! The longer the better!

LOL!! *There's* a man with his priorities in order! :)

Forget Voldemort. Umbridge was the major villain in this book -- she's certainly the one who sent chills through me repeatedly.

In fact, I might have liked the book better had Voldemort not even appeared. Given that Umbridge was basically the wizarding world's answer to Joe McCarthy and a damned effective one at that, I'd have been interested to see how the book would have turned out were she the only antagonist this go-round. We all know Voldemort's out there and a problem -- let's see how much damage he can do in paranoia alone.

And as my wife's pointed out, all the leaks saying that Someone Was Going To Die made some of the book read like serious setup -- not quite red herrings, but close. I know that I pretty much sat bolt upright when Hermione got smacked by the Death Eater -- dammit, she couldn't be the one to die, could she?

That said ... a good read. I'll be curious to see what happens with Malfoy now that his dad's been put away for a while. Year 6 promises to be at least as unstable as year 5.

TWL

Fred and George waging war on Umbridge was, in my opinion, one of the best parts of the book. Those scenes just before they blow their way out makes you realize just how smart those two demented geniuses really are.

Additionally, Rowling continues to insert side plots that don't really need to be there. In this case, Hagrid's little brother. That could easily have been excised and nothing lost.

Well, I think it's a bit premature to say that. I didn't think of it as inserting a side plot so much as introducing a new plotline. I'm more than willing to see where it goes in the next two books; Hagrid's li'l bro might have some major relevance to the overall story, and if he does, well...he had to be introduced *some*where.

PAD

I read it in 2 and 1/2 days. Quite enjoyable, but still felt that there were still several missing points.

The character who died it'actually one of my favorites (sometimes I still have chills re-reading Prisoner of Askaban while listening to ASH as Giles singing Standing, and I don't know why). But the "death" scene was quite anticlimatic, it didn't felt quite like a death. Even though it was insisted further on until the end of the book about that it would be a definite thing, it still didn't felt quite like that. It was a "death" scene, but it wasn't a "DEATH", as I was expecting it would happen. Though it was a really surprise that Sirius was the character she chose to kill.

I liked the book, it was not my favorite at all from the series, but it did had some high points.

Even though Bellatrix only had a brief appearance it seems that she's quite an interesting character.

The book brought several changes compared to the other books. Like it was the first one that Harry didn't spent christmas at Hogwarts and stuffs like that.

Besides Hemione who PAD already pointed as one of the high points of the book, I also like to mention how Joanne showed Ginny as more confident character (her comment about wanting to be a chaser the next year, just makes me wonder about the Grynffindor team for next year). Tonks was actually one of my favorite new characters. Fred and George as always fun, well, I mean in the books... cause in the movies you barely notice them. I really liked how Neville was handled, and the return of several characters from past books.

Several other little things were also great, Like McGonnagal in her sutil revolt for Umbridge. Or how the Order went to Dursley's house to get Harry. The DA was another nice concept. The scene in the Black's House when Mrs. Weasley was trying to get rid of the Boggart was quite strong.

The pacing was definetely one of the low points, in several parts of the book it seemed to be dragging a bit. Sometimes Harry could be just Dawnish anoying with a bit of Buffy superiority /inferiority complex (note to myself, I really have to move on about Buffy - though it was nice to see the gang get larger in this book).

Some subplots just seemed pointless. Such as Hagrid's half brother, who at the end only served to save Hermy (that was a funny one) and Harry.

The prophecy explaination at the end was good , but at some point during Dumbledore's explaination, it seemed that it was going to nowhere at all.

Yes I know it's supposed to be a book for kids. But every book I get a little bit annoyed for the lack of external reaction, at least from the magical world after the events have occured. We did get a little bit more in this book, but everything was so centered in a microverse, that sometimes felt strange.

Basically I wasn't dissappointed by the book, but wasn't overwhelmed by it either.

Johny

Posting part of this in invisible mode for 2 reasons. 1) I may be wrong about it. 2) I've yet to finish the book, but this is my suspicion so far. So highlight at your own discretion.

As I said, I've yet to finish reading the book. I'm currently around page 330. The following is my guess as to how the entire series ends, not just this book, based on the conversation that is held by Harry, Ron and Hermoine about Harry teaching them the Defense against the Dark Arts. The end of the series will be Harry Potter as the teacher of the DADA. Of everyone who has taught it so far, he'll have the most practical of experiences. And odds are he'll be the one to ultimately defeat and kill Voldemort.

So that's it. Not a big revelation, but it was something that definitely stood out to me.

Now back to the book.... :)

Read the book a few days ago...

First of all, Harry makes for a damned good teacher. If he doesn't end up with the DADA job at some point, I'll be disappointed. I mean, he freaking made NEVILLE useful.

Second, Hermione's plan to get rid of Umbridge was surprisingly... well, evil for a kid.

Third, Fred and George are gloriously fun characters, and I pray we haven't seen the last of them. The post-early graduation revolt was the funniest thing I'd read in a long while (since before Captain Marvel went serious and nutty, actually...). A nice touch was the preservation of a piece of the swamp.

Fourth, the death in the story was a lot like the death of Tara on Buffy... Completely out of the blue, hit like lightning. I'll miss that guy.

All that having been said, however... Percy's a little piece of (censored) for turning on people he's known for years. Hagrid was utterly wasted in this chapter. And, most of all, the running gag with the DADA job is really, REALLY getting annoying. It's almost to the point where I wanna bring in a detective and say "Elementary, my dear Potter... the Dark Arts teacher did it!"

Oh, and I'm amazed, utterly amazed, that NO character paused when seeing Umbridge long enough to send her a Nazi salute and a "HEIL!" Of course, that lunatic would probably take it as a compliment.

There's not much here I can add, though I do find it amusing that other people are starting to call that 'revolving door' job DADA. ;)

And I agree with Kevin and Aaron about that being a possible ending - and probably training the next generation of kids against Draco, if he holds a grudge over the next two books.

The invisible writing doesn't work as well with the green background.

The problem with the Defense Against the Dark Arts position was really clarified by Umbridge. To teach kids how to defend against the Dark Arts, you have to KNOW the Dark Arts. The wizarding community is scared...er, Snitchless...by anyone who really knows the Dark Arts. So, you get a timid incompetent like Quirrel, a pretentious fop like Lockhart, a desperate and despised person like Lupin, and an officially approved, politically correct person who steers clear of any real knowledge.

And isn't it interesting that Snape, a Slytherin, someone who knows enough to pass among the Death Eaters, is not given the job? Perhaps wizarding history has shown that anyone who CAN teach DADA is likely to leave more student corpses behind than Columbine High.

Dumbledore's only moment of real stupidity was in not knowing the phony Moody from the real one. There must have been dozens of times that Crouch Jr. could have given himself away, but "Double D" missed them.

I can see what you mean about the ending, but it didn't really bother me. I think it was a sensible character motivation for Voldemort to go after the prophecy (since he only knew the first half of it), even if it wasn't much of a revelation (to him or the readers) once he heard it. And there was enough other stuff going on at the end that it didn't feel like an anti-climax.

On the other hand, re-reading book 4 recently, it struck me that the fake Moody was making his plot over-complicated. If the goal was to get Harry to touch a portkey, then it would be much easier to say "Right class, we're having a test today. Please pick up the exam papers that I've laid out on your desks."

Not much to add about the comments regarding the structure of the story. But for all its problems, I still loved this book and enjoyed getting sucked in.

As to Harry's behavior in this book? Having worked with kids around his age, I think she got him spot on. I'm a bit surprised we didn't have an adult character smacking him upside the head for it, but he is so much like the "woe is me" breed of teen. Dealing with external stresses just causes much moodiness and negative thinking and desperation.

Before I get flamed, though, I will point out that not all teens are like this. I just think she got him right for the kind of kid I think Harry's becoming. And that hopefully Book 6 will see him learning some lessons from this year of mistakes and turning into a good, strong man.

And I hate to admit it, but Harry's first attempt at romance was just as awkward as mine. I had to giggle as he did everything wrong.

John wrote:

On the other hand, re-reading book 4 recently, it struck me that the fake Moody was making his plot over-complicated. If the goal was to get Harry to touch a portkey, then it would be much easier to say "Right class, we're having a test today. Please pick up the exam papers that I've laid out on your desks."

I think that using a portkey makes some type of backlash or magical "gong" sound that alerts people that it's being used. There was a bit in this book that makes it sound like there is a branch in the Ministry of Magic that looks for illegal portkey usage. Plus, they did seem to be trying to make Harry's death look to be an accident, a classroom of students going "He just disappeared when he picked up his exam" wouldn't help on that matter.

Now for my comments:

I'm not sure that I will beleive that Padfoot is dead until book seven is read. Harry did cut off DD during is explanation, and he did keep saying that he was "gone." There might be some way to get him out of the "door." Just seems too much like a easily revolved door for this plot point.

Harry's characterization is good for this book. He has THE major media outlet not reporting on what he knows is true, plus they are running stories that he's losing his marbles and becoming a media hound that's just looking for an excuse to make tha news. Being a teen is hard enough, you don't need everyone thinking that you're nuts to boot.

The explanation of Harry having to live with the Dursley's is a nice twist, plus the seeming revelation that Mrs. Dursley really does care about her sister.

My thoughts on the future, I think that Neville might be a little more important than we think right now, he comes from a very strong wizarding family but just lacks confidence. He could be the one that ends up with a "lightning shaped scar just like Harry's." Meaning that the prophecy was meant for both of them, not just Harry.

jeff

I have to agree that while the prophecy didn't give us, the readers, any new "real" information, You-Know-Who did not know that. All he knew was the first half of it, which basicly said "Boy X will be born and stop Y-K-H." If I was him, I would also want to know what the rest said. And since only Harry could pick up said prophecy...

I also liked how Y-K-H played on Harry's needing to play the hero, and how that was pointed out to Harry how it could be a flaw.

I was hopeing to see Neville get a chance to face off against the Death Eater who drove his parents mad and defeat her. I've always liked him, having been a bit of a Neville as a kid. Seeing his parents this time really drove it home to me how rough he has it, esp with his Gran continuly telling him how his father was so much better as a wizard than he is. I understand it, her son is "lost" to her and she's probbably coping as best she can, the whole "He/She was a saint!" mindset some widdows/ers get, but it really has given poor Neville a head job. I really wonder how it would be if it had been Neville Y-K-W had gone after and marked, sealing the prophecy that way.

StS

One thing that got me--even though it is very age-appropriate for a 15-year-old--was how much Harry ends up hating Snape even more than ever. The man was TRYING to save Harry, who only focuses on how it contributed to the death. Harry refuses to acknowledge that Snape did understand what Harry was saying while being held down by the "Inquisitor and Kids," yet chose to save his student--as any good teacher would do in my opinion.

I'm glad that Harry taught the DADA group, but I kept wondering when he was going to apologize profusely for his and his father's bad behavior, and ask Snape to help out. Naturally, as most 15-year-olds I've worked with, Harry escalated his feelings for Snape as an enemy at every opportunity to bury the hatchet and work together.

Not even Dumbledore, one of the two people Harry loves the most, could convince the kid that Snape was on the side of good and made really good choices in Harry's favor.

I just hope the next book isn't as depressing as these last two; or at least has far more fun/happy moments.

Oh, and forgive the unrelated cheer, but GO SUPREME COURT!

What surprises me is that if Harry had just opened the gift, if the giver had just merely reminded Harry of the gift, then the bad stuff wouldn't have happened.

As for where this sits in the arc of the series, I see plenty that makes a difference. There is no more hiding from the fact that there are two sides, no more disbelieving. Some mighty powerful folk have aligned themselves with the bad side., and some forces for the good have appeared. This is not the last time we shall see DA, I reckon. The place of certain characters in the universe began to shift, as comic relief becomes useful folk.

Me, I liked the vast length. Finished reading it out loud to my wife last night, got a lot of chance to do funny scenes, action scenes, emotional scenes. Certainly kept our attention throughout. Even got to do a voice or two I thought I'd not get to do again.

The key bit in the prophecy is that Harry has to die at Voldemort's hands or vice versa. He can't just send his Death Eaters to do the job and no one else - not even Dumbledore! - will do him in. I think he'd find that information useful, but it wasn't worth the death of one of the Order.

The whole book seems to have been just to resolve the last chapter in the previous book. Fudge refused to believe and so events conspired to bring Voldemort out in the open so Fudge could see him at the end of this book and he was forced to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised if that end was part of the Order's goal in this book anyway. They wanted to draw Voldemort out.

As far as it being Harry's fault. Well, it is mostly his fault, but there is plenty of other blame. Dumbledore explained how he should have given Harry more information. And then there was Sirius who when Harry first appeared in the fireplace should have reminded him of the gift he gave him which would have allowed risk-free communication. What was the point of that besides laying on more guilt on Harry's shoulders. He hid it away without looking at it determined that he wouldn't be the one to draw Sirius away, but then he does just that.

As in the first book, if Harry and his friends did nothing about the item, it would have been safer for all concerned. In the first book, if Dumbledore had told Harry the nature of his charm that hid the Philosopher's Stone, then Harry would have known it wasn't in any danger of being stolen. In this book, only Harry or Voldemort could get the prophecy (why were they storing it in the first place, except as bait for Voldemort?).

Neil

I think it was somewhat mindnumblingly obvious that the reason Harry lives with the Dursleys is so he doesn't get a big head, Peter.

... Otherwise, good review. I totally agree. I don't really get the deal with the prophecy either. The chapters leading up to it, however, are taut, filled with tension, and some of the best pages I've ever read. I didn't think anything could top Harry facing off against a restored Voldemort, but this did.

Sigh...

Harry Potter again. I'm sorry, I just don't get the hype. It's like the whole world is under some spell that didn't work on me.

I did read the first three books and it was entertaining, but well, frankly PAD, I enjoyed Apropos better. And I'm not trying to suck up to you when I say that.

I do like the movies though.

I thought the movies were like lunchbox commercials compared to the books. I think one thing that many people neglect to notice is that Harry is guided; people tell him what to do and where to go and how to handle just about everything. His successes come through fortunate chances; however, his ability to use them comes from a good heart.

Uh -- the prophecy. On a re-read, I thought maybe the point was that if there's going to be someone to defeat Voldemort at all, it is going to be Harry Potter. Which I think we already knew, because Harry is the main character. However, Harry had for the most part seemed to think he'd merely be a bit player, not an actual champion. He now knows that, according to prophecy, he is going to defeat Voldemort permanently, or die trying, and should Harry fail, no one, not even Dumbledore, will defeat Voldemort. If Harry doesn't kill Voldemort, it will be no one at all.

I'm not sure that I will beleive that Padfoot is dead until book seven is read. Harry did cut off DD during is explanation, and he did keep saying that he was "gone." There might be some way to get him out of the "door." Just seems too much like a easily revolved door for this plot point.

Nooo, I think he's pretty much gone. That wasn't just any "door." The tip off was the curtain or, as it was called, a veil. He passed "beyond the veil." Get it? Rowling loves sound-alike terms. To pass "beyond the vale" is to leave this world ("vale" means world) and go to the next one, i.e., die. My guess is that the actual name of that curtain is the "Veil of Tears," since our little environs is occasionally referred to as the "vale of tears."

PAD

Even JKR has said he's dead. Not just merely "not quite dead yet."

Quoting from a BBC interview:

Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive.

Full interview text at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3004456.stm

As regards to hype - the ironic thing is that for the first three books there was hardly any hype at all. Then people began to notice the sales figures, the movie deals were signed, the product licensing was signed, and the next thing you know even the TITLE of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire was a big secret. It's kind of a shame really. I have to wonder what the seven books would have been like if she'd managed to get them all done, or just very nearly complete and release them once a year, maybe doing little last minute edits, and let them stand on their own BEFORE Hollywood took notice, but the only thing they read are balance sheets anyway.

You'll forgive the irony, but that's my two cents. ;)

Even JKR has said he's dead. Not just merely "not quite dead yet."

Quoting from a BBC interview:

Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive.

Full interview text at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3004456.stm

As regards to hype - the ironic thing is that for the first three books there was hardly any hype at all. Then people began to notice the sales figures, the movie deals were signed, the product licensing was signed, and the next thing you know even the TITLE of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire was a big secret. It's kind of a shame really. I have to wonder what the seven books would have been like if she'd managed to get them all done, or just very nearly complete and release them once a year, maybe doing little last minute edits, and let them stand on their own BEFORE Hollywood took notice, but the only thing they read are balance sheets anyway.

You'll forgive the irony, but that's my two cents. ;)

Ah shoot. Serves me right for not paying attention. Darn thing did a double post.

If someone could pare it down to just the one, I do apologize.

Having spent the last few years thinking Harry a perverse rip-off of another book which Warner Brothers published through one of their subsidaries *cough*booksofmagic*cough, I can finally say after 2 movies, all the hype, and, yes, actually READING the last 3 books that Harry is an interesting read. Sadistic that we have to see what he goes through though, as every book gets darker.

Book 5, yea, I bought it and read it right after seeing the Hulk, which I was pleased with too. Now, we all have to wait how long for book 6 or 7?

Um, and all of you may curse me for this but...The Veil. There's Harry's way of nixing Voldy, without bloodshed. My god, i've read too much in my life to not see that one coming a mile off.

I enjoyed Order of the Phoenix but it did read as if Rowling had realised she'd accelerated the plot too quickly in book 4 and wanted some breathing space. After all, the state of play re Voldemort at the end of book 5 is exactly the same as at the end of book 4 - Voldemort is back and a new War is about to begin. Isn't this where we came in?

In place of plot development, we get some interesting character development. Harry comes across as deeply unsympathetic throughout. Yes, he's been through a lot etc etc, but he spends too much of the novel in a big sulk and you can only take sympathy so far. I also think Sirius Black's death was entirely Harry's fault, I'm afraid. He makes no attempts whatsoever to master his occlumency lessons because he's too curious about what his visions will show him, despite EVERYONE telling him how important it is he block them out. On seeing the vision of Sirius being tortured, he shouts down Hermione's (spot on) analysis of the situation and goes charging off to the rescue, on the way allowing his dislike of Snape to blind him to an obvious ally. Who he then elects to pin all the blame onto. Hopefully, much of the teen angst bit is now spent and book 6 will see him having grown up a bit.

Dumbledore doesn't emerge too well from this novel either. Absent from Harry and then deserting the school, leaving it to the thrillingly nasty Umbridge, he fails to have much of a positive influence this time round and for the first time, the novel ends with Harry refusing to take to heart any of Dumbledore's end-of-book explanations.

I found the backstory of Harry’s Parents, Sirius & Snape via Harry’s (unforgivable) delve into Snape’s memories the most fascinating part of the novel. It manages to bring out very unpleasant sides of James and Sirius’ characters without actually contradicting anything that’s been established previously. Good writing! Also gives us more on what makes Snape tick (who by the way is my favourite character - so much about his character is kept deliberately ambiguous). I’m looking forward to how book 6 develops with Harry’s deepened hatred of him.

Final thought on the series - is it only me who enjoys the absurdity of concentrating all the potentially evil students into their own House at Hogwarts? Wouldn’t it be better to spread them around a bit?

Like most everyone else, I loved Fred and George and their campaign against Umbridge. I especially loved McGonagall's campaign too. I loved the revelation about Neville.

Two new things that I didn't see previously:

Did anyone else think it was foreshadowing when it was mentioned about Arthur being Minister of Magic. I really was expecting Fudge to have to leave office in disgrace and Arthur being put in charge.

Secondly, a book I was reading in Barnes and Noble seems to think that James Potter isn't really dead. If you think about it, there have been lots of mentions about Lily's actions on the night Voldemort attacked but nothing on James. The book thinks that there was a Switching spell placed that put James in Remus Lupin's body and vice versa so that it was Remus Lupin who died that night. I forget what the main evidence was but it was all about Lupin's behavior and the way he acts towards Harry and Sirius.

I just wanted to point out something about the prophecy that I don't believe has been noted yet. While I agree with the general consensus that it doesn't change the future direction of the book, it does reveal that Voldemort sowed the seeds of his own undoing by placing his mark (the lightning scar) on Harry. If he hadn't attacked Harry (ditto for Neville, for that matter), the prophecy couldn't be fulfilled.

Also, as far as Voldemort's motivation for going after the prophecy in the first place, keep in mind that he only heard half of its contents originally. As far as he knew, the rest of it might give detailed instruction on how to get rid of Potter and rule the wizarding world.

Regarding the James/Lupin theory stated above: I really hope that isn't true. Lupin's one of my favorite characters.

my question about the book is rather simple... When are Harry and Ron ever going to read Hogwarts: A History?

I loved this book, definitely one of my Top 5 Harry Potter books :)

Ra!

I like this quote from the J.K. Rowling interview linked above:

JKR: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, "I've just killed the person. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I thought, a doctor you know... and I said "Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer."

Somewhere, John Byrne is kneeling next to a toilet.

--Daniel

Random Commetns:

I don't necessarily think that Neville is *totally* out of the running here. For all we know, Dumbledore could be callously and deliberately using Harry as a Red Herring. Neville could still be "marked" at some point in the future.

Did anyone esle think it strange that at about the same time it occured to Harry that his anger was "so near the surface" these days that he was reading about (or maybe Snape was teaching about) potions that can cause anger? I kept expecting a revelation that Harry had be "potion-ed" into acting recklessly.

Why is everyone so surprised about the magic of staying at the Dursely's? The last book as much as sayed -- or at least I totally inferred -- that he was magically protected while at the Dursely's. Dumbledoor even said in novel 4 that while one avenue of protection was gone, theter were others that Voldemort did not know about.

Percy was another point that has not really been brought up too much. I really can't see why he would be acting this way unless he is/was acting "undercover" for Dumbledore or some such. I really can't see a Weasley acting like this without a better reason. Percy knows first hand (presumably" from Harry (someone he at least somewhat knows and trusts) What Really Happened. He is also the kind that would play the part of undercover sychophant with utter gusto. Remember how he took on the role of prefect? (Of course, this little trait also rather supports his a-hole behavior this novel, too, but I want to believe taht Ron's brother is takingone for the team.

As much as i would like to think that Percy was acting undercover, i just don't believe it... i don't understand why he would go to the effort of hurting his mother so much and then there's the fact that he sent his letter to Ron so late at night, if you were trying to show that you were supporting the current regime wouldn't it be wiser to show that you are encouraging others to do the same? I mean they were searching through Harry's mail so its safe to assume (yes i know what they say about assuming... :)) that they were probably searching Harry's friends' mail as well.

Percy strikes me as one who, similarly to Fudge, wants and likes power, that's why he took to being the Prefect so well, and that's why he's willing to sell himself out of his family. Kind of a shame really, but i know enough people like him to understand it...

Ra!

Random comments:

Interesting bit about Remus and James. Could turn out to be something.

I really love these books, but as time goes on I'm also getting quite tired of Rowling's continual reliance on cheap plot mechanics to drive things along, usually in the form of people who should know better hiding major bits of information. Hundreds of pages of plot of any of these books could be cut by someone saying "Excuse me, Headmaster Dumbledore, but I'm really concerned about these voices I'm hearing" or "Harry, while we're at it you ought to know that these visions you're getting might possibly be a plant from The Dark Lord and maybe you should take them with a grain of salt." We get an in-plot, in-character explanation of them every time, but after a while it gets tiresome. This time around we had to make the major leaps of Sirius forgetting he had a magic mirror

I happened to watch the CoS movie again tonight, and thought to myself, "My god, are these people terminally afraid of talking to each other?"

Once you put together Dumbledore's power, some of his comments to Harry, and the ease of which spying magic works (the Marauder's Map and Mrs. Weasley's clock, for instance), it's hard to come to any other conclusion than "Dumbledore knows exactly what Harry is doing and where he is at all times."

I really want to know where Dumbledore was during his exile.

Extremely interesting stuff with the portraits and ghosts. Recall Arthur Weasley's words in CoS: "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." Many, many times people have said or done very secret things in front of ghosts and portraits; now we're learning that they can and will be used as very effective spying tools. I suspect the portraits within the Hogwarts halls have been reporting to Dumbledore on pretty much anything he wants to know. And while we're at it, what exactly are those portraits, anyway? Shades of previous headmasters left behind, like Nick and the other ghosts? Or something less or more? They certainly act like their old selves. Interesting themes going on here, though, of not taking anything or anyone for granted; Harry only got useful information from Moaning Myrtle, for instance, when he quit thinking of her as a nuisance and started thinking of her as a person.

I got the impression that at least some of Harry's bad attitude this time around was due to his increasing connection with Voldemort. Let's not forget that his scar had him in pain nearly all the time. Consider all the hell going on around him for the last five years, his abusive childhood and the general emotional insanity of being 15 -- and then add in a 24-hour-a-day, nonstop splitting headache. I'd be bitchy on the headache alone.

About the portraits - just how do they work? Can anything in the wizarding world be secret with all those portraits all over the place? Do they only work with dead people? I would think that there would be portraits of some of Black's relatives elsewhere (Lucius Malfoy's place?) and the Order would have been known through that.

There definitely has to be something more powerful about some portaits than others or photographs. Otherwise Harry would have had long conversations with his parents.

Neil

Okay, work with me here.

I'm expecting big things from Neville in the next two books, and here's why:

all along, he's been a lame wizard -- so lame in fact that there was some talk from his own family that he might be a "squib."

After working like a dog with Harry for a few months, he gains some measure of compentence -- enough to go toe-to-toe with a bunch of Death Eaters. Now, in the course of this, he loses his wand, and comments "Gran's going to kill me, that was my dad's wand."

Now, casting my mind back to book one, I seem to recall Olivander saying it's the wand that chooses the wizard... so Neville's been using someone else's wand, i.e. not a wand specifically chosen for/by him.

What, I wonder, will he be able to accomplish with a new wand chosen for him?

I just finished the book last night, and generally loved it. Yes, folks can quibble about the length or the pacing, but for me, I'd rather spend nigh-unto-900 pages in the world of Hogwarts than a fraction of that amount in many other fictional worlds.

A couple of my own thoughts and observations:

(1) I, too, am impressed with Neville and expect great things from him. Perhaps more than any other character, I'm most impressed with how Rowling's developed him. I'm going to be most depressed if he is killed in either of the next two books.

(2) One of the developments I really, really liked is how Harry begins to think that his father might have been a bit of a jerk. Part of adolescent rebellion is realizing that one's parents are fallible human beings, and Harry seems to be going through that here, what with learning about young James Potter and with father-figure Dumbledore apologizing to him so profusely at the end.

(3) At a recent signing, Rowling apparently surprised her audience by suggesting that Harry might not survive book 7. (I believe she was asked what Harry would do after Hogwarts and she cheekily replied that we'll have to see if he makes it out of Hogwarts.) So some fans are a bit scared about Harry's fate. On the other hand, the book dangles a tantalizing thread--the idea that if Harry is become an Auror, that would require three years of training. I honestly don't think that Rowling will continue this series past book 7, but I find it interesting that she's sort of dangled the whisper of a possibility of 8th, 9th, and 10th books out there...

(4) The Sorting Hat sings of the need for the four Hogwarts houses to come together. Thematically, I've always expected Harry and Draco to somehow team up, but now that Harry's basically gotten Draco's dad arrested, if gonna be interesting to see how that'll happen if it's going to happen.

(5) As points reading the book, I was possessed by a strange but familiar sense of dread, which I couldn't quite identify. Finally, I realized what it was--that same sense of academic dread I felt in high school. Cramming for standardized tests. Meetings with guidance counselors. Pulling all-nighters. It's amazing that Rowling's fictional magical academy could somehow viscerally feel so much like my own high shool experience... Man, sometimes I'm glad I'm not in school any longer...

(6) What is Arithmancy, anyway?

Hermione kicked ass! Don't know about people who didn't like her in HP5, but this book sealed my love for this character.

I only read the book once, so I probably didn't get much of the nuances but I kinda found Harry irritating, but then I realize, yeah, he's human too!:)

Weasleys are Royals!:)

Also finished it last night (actually, I held off on reading this thread until I had, as per your instructions, PAD).

Most of the developments early on weren't all that surprising -- Harry and Dumbledore being blasted in the woefully unethical Daily Prophet, the formation of a secret organization to combat Voldemort, the fact that Harry and Neville's parents were on the previous roster, even the appointment of a Ministry paper-pusher as DADA wasn't as surprising as it was something I didn't know had happened yet. The only big surprises for me in the beginning were Harry's unbridled anger (I know it's an adolescent phase, but he was so darn well-mannered at the end of book 4 -- plus, I was never that pissed off when I was that age) and Dumbledore's unwillingness to look at him.

Harry - Man, was that boy pissed! I don't honestly think Dumbledore did anything to deserve Harry laying into him like he did, but I experienced the whole thing in two and a half days, not ten months. It was interesting that even the best parts of his life weren't enough to stem his anger until the DA was formed. I mean, Cho kisses him, and after he's over the shock of it, he's the same surly cuss he was before. I can't wait to see more.

Hermione - I like Hermione because she has a kitty. Also, Jesus died because he was weak and stupid.

Sorry, I couldn't help it (for those offended who don't recognize the quote, it's from an article found in The Onion about Harry Potter from three or four years ago. It's extremely funny). Anyway, I've always liked smart characters, and she certainly lives up to it. A prefect who breaks the rules regularly throughout the year is a great thing. Also, Emma Watson is adorable.

Ron - Though I doubted it, I considered that he might be the character who dies when I heard about it. I knew she wouldn't do it, but I could see her throwing us a curve, and the impact of Ron's death would have been sizable. He really didn't do much this time out; aside from getting on the Quidditch team and becoming Prefect (not a very good one, honestly), he was just kind of hangin' around.

Cho - Talk about a disappointment. After all that buildup of the pretty Chinese girl with the long hair in the last two books ended this way? Blah. For the last two books, I'd been wanting to see more of her. She was a cypher, and this book was supposed to flesh her out. While her sequences did provide some interesting moments, she just turned out to be an ordinary girl, crazy and fickle (no offense, ladies, but you are at that age). After all that trouble, he decides he's just not interested? What a let-down.

Dumbledore - PAD called it on this one: Dumbledore kicks ass. One note, though, on his competency: I'd like to point out that Obi-wan Kenobi (Star Wars 4-6 only; I don't give a damn about the prequels) was a similar mentor character throughout, even after passing, and he was never right about anything. Seriously; watch them again. Not one decision he makes with regards to training Luke is the right one. Dumbledore's got a better track record than him.

McGonnagal - She rocks! I direct you to her career meeting with Harry for this: "Oh, I'm sorry Professor Umbridge, I meant DADA classes taught by a competent teacher." I gasped when I read that. She rocks.

Snape - Am I alone in wanting to see this guy as something more than a whiny bully? "I pick on you, Potter, because your father was mean to me." Get some damn balls, Snape! It was fine in the first two books, but now we know you're being played by Alan Rickman! Live up to your portrayal! I was sure that the private classes would be enough for Harry to see him in a positive light (for the record, pity is not a positive light). He has so much potential as an utter badass, and yet every time Rowling gives us something that could be cool, it turns out to be more whining. Also, I think Malfoy being his pet student detracts from his character.

Malfoy - I want Harry to say the things I think when Malfoy speaks. After the quidditch match, instead of hitting him, I wanted Harry to sidle up to him, faces about three inches apart, and say "Perhaps, Malfoy, when you've accomplished anything without Mumsy and Daddy pulling strings at the ministry or throwing galleons at people until you get what you want, your idiot ramblings about Weasley genealogy might be important enough to consider getting angry with. If you ever say another word about my parents again, however, *punches him in the gut at this point* you'll be a ferrett again. I've been practicing, and I think I can do it without killing you." It's what I would have said, anyway.

Sirius - I liked him for the same reason Harry did, but this book showed he really didn't have much in the way of character. Aside from the emotional impact on Harry, I just can't see how his death will affect anything. Of course, depending on how Gary Oldman plays him in the next movie, I may revise that opinion.

Oh, and Ali - Arithmancy is just what it sounds like: It's the use of mathematical formulas to define and create effects. Margaret Ball wrote a short story in Chicks in Chainmail that showed the concept very well, and the story was popular enough she wrote at least one novel on the same subject. I suggest you check it out, at which point, you'll probably want to be an Arithmancer as much as I do -- and I really want to be an Arithmancer.

I finished it last night. I think each book has improved the characters a little, the natural progression of fleshing out the main characters as it goes. I hope Cho Chang hasn't been "written out" of the main story arc; I like her character.

A couple of points from me:

1. Am I the only one who thinks Ron and Hermione are eventually going to fall in love?

2. The revolt of the teachers against Umbridge was well done, with MacGonall the cream of the crop. As PAD said, her muttering to Peeves was top notch.

3. I wish we'd seen a little more payback to Umbridge at the end.

4. Neville's come a loooong way from the awkward klutz he was in the 1st book. He's determined to be an ass-kicker.

5. As far as the Sorting Hat, did it specifically say the students must come together? We've seen Snape join the Order now, so perhaps that is some small satisfaction. I don't see how Malfoy and Harry could be teamed at this point. As an aside, the kid playing Malfoy in the movies is doing a great job. His sneers in CoS are dead-on perfect and just at the right moments.

6. I think people are putting way too much into every little thing JKR mentions in interviews now. Off-hand comments should be allowed to be just that, and shouldn't be read too deeply.

Nekouken: Thanks for the Arithmancy tip. I'll have to add Margaret Ball's book to the ol' reading list.

Rob Thorton writes:

I hope Cho Chang hasn't been "written out" of the main story arc; I like her character.

I like her too. I suspect she'll be back in Books 6 and 7...

Am I the only one who thinks Ron and Hermione are eventually going to fall in love?

Not at all. But I'm more interested to see if Hagrid matchmakes for Crawp. And what kind of wedding would that be? ;-)

The revolt of the teachers against Umbridge was well done, with MacGonall the cream of the crop. As PAD said, her muttering to Peeves was top notch.

My favorite bit actually wasn't McGonagall talking to Peeves about the chandelier, but that oh-so-British paragraph at the end of the book describing how Peeves chased Umbridge out of the castle wielding a walking stick and a bag of chalk, and how McGonagall wasn't able to chase after them since, after all, Peeves had borrowed her walking stick. Veddy British, IMO...

I think people are putting way too much into every little thing JKR mentions in interviews now. Off-hand comments should be allowed to be just that, and shouldn't be read too deeply.

Oh, you're surely right. But at the same time, with books so beloved and so rich as these, it's natural for folks to scrutinize everything available for hints as to where things might go. On the other hand, when folks thought they unearthed a secret at the climax of Goblet of Fire that'd play out in the future, it turned out not to be an intentional hint from Rowling, but a mistake that was corrected in future printings... Still, it's natural and fun to guess what might happen in the next books.

Someone above said that they wished that there had been more of a payback on Umbridge. Maybe there's a reason that there wasn't more payback against here. Didn't Madmae Pomfrey say that she was being sent to St. Mungo's at the end? I don't know because I lent my book to my friend so I can't check.

Anyway, here's my point. Has anyone else noticed that St. Mungo's is starting to be filled with some formerly important characters. I have a feeling that Umbridge, Lockhart, and the Chamberlains will become important again for either good causes or bad.

BTW, can someone refresh my memory? Is this the first time we found out about Neville's parents or was it revealed before that they were in the hospital?

We found out about Neville's parents in book 4 via Dumbledore's Pensieve :)

Ra!

I finished reading the book yesterday. I liked it quite a bit. I normally wouldn't nitpick, but Peter's comments about looking at the book from a writer's perspective had me thinking a bit more critically.

Rowling doesn't spend as much time explaining every little thing that we see, for instance, if you only read this book, you might have a limited understanding of what an auror does. It seems that at this point, you are expected to have read the other books, although the overall plot is easily understood.

Rowling strayed away from her usual formula a little bit here. We didn't see halloween or Christmas at Hogwarts, didn't hear Dumbledore's end of year speech - (Did Slytherin win the tally of points?), we didn't see the final quiddich match.

There was much to like here. Moments like when Neville pocketed the wrapper his mother gave him, or the fact that Dumbledore knows all his former students, even calling Valdemort "Tom".The best moment by far was the exit of Fred and George. I must have re-read that part six times. Who wouldn't want an exit like that? I didn't expect to like Luna, but her quiet sincerity, and espescially her last scene, pinning up the list, won me over. It's possible, at least in my mind, that she'll be a future love interest for Harry.

My main qubble stylistically is the lists of names that get thrown at the reader. All the members of the Order, all the members of the D.A., plus all the other students. Lists are good, but too many lists, espescially of names, can be confusing.

There was no resolution of the Percy situation, even after Valdemort was proven to be back. Even if Percy didn't feel apologetic, it should be explained why he didn't feel apologetic.

What happened to Harry's broom?

I was surprised that the device of the Thestrals wasn't used fully, as in having someone witness Sirius' death, then notice the previously invisible horses.

I was somewhat disappointed in Umbridges lack of "comeuppance". If she had stayed with the centaurs, we could have imagined some ghastly peril, but she came back and was only in shock. I mean, earlier in the book, she was physically torturing Harry with those lines. For that alone, there should be a big payoff, even if it's just to see her reaction to Harry being proven right. Fortunately, we at least had Fred and George's to tell her off successfully.

I wonder about the American versions of these books versus the original UK editions. I know "Sorcerers" stone was changed from "Phiolosopher's" stone, but I am seeing a lot of "qeues", and "draughts" in this book, which I wonder if most American parents know how to pronounce, much less define. Someday I'd like to compare the translation to the original, and see what' s different.

Randall

About Cho Chang - I think that she is one year ahead, so the 6th book may be the last we see her.

Regarding the American vs English editions - I really wish they didn't make the American editions. Changing Philosopher's Stone to Sorcerer's Stone was a real bad idea and possibly the worst of the changes so far.

If someone has the UK edition of this book and gives some examples of places where they think it could have been changed, those of us with the US editions can check.

Neil

Neil Ottenstein writes:

If someone has the UK edition of this book and gives some examples of places where they think it could have been changed, those of us with the US editions can check.

For what it's worth, I found a website http://www.geocities.com/hpnewsgroup/bookdif.htm that notes the differences between the US and UK editions of the first four Harry Potter books. Aside from the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone change, most of them seem to be minor accomodations to local slang or usages typical to different US / UK editions.

(Note that this site doesn't mention which printings of the US or UK editions are being compared. It's theoretically possible that there are minor differences between various printings of either edition.)

...and another thing - they were in the time room - no one could figure out a way to save the prophecy? Why not use that bell jar thingee?

Randall

Ya know, i was thinking about that too... why didn't they use the stuff in the time room to save Sirius and what exactly was behind that veil... I was expecting it to be one of the plot bunnies that Dumbledore would wrap up at the end of the bookbut alas... Ear wax...

Ra!

This book was incredibly accurate about a lot of things. Harry was your normal, typical, self-centered bastard that every single 15-year old is. It's in the psychology of the beast - I teach high school, so I see it every day. Kids that age can transcend that on occasion, but not often enough. Harry had a very accurate "It's not my fault, I'm innocent, woe is me."

His relationship with Cho Chang was accurate, too. Most high school relationships (viewing them from the outside as a teacher) are very intense, very passionate - but the intensity and passion rarely intrude onto real life. To badly paraphrase Shakespeare, most high school relationships are "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

I, personally, would love to see that Voldemort is actually Harry's father.

SPOILER!!!!!!!!! DONT READ IT IF U DONT WANT TO FIND OUT WHO DIES!!!

I think that Sirius's death hit me pretty hard..... ive always wondered y it couldnt be anyone else because now where is harry going to go???? i really really hope that there is some way he can cum bak..... I've heard taht Lupin is going to take over the godfather duty now..

O YEA and if ne1 noes any rumorrs for the 6th or 7th HP book can u post em for me??? thnx a bunch......

Neil Ottenstein wrote:

About Cho Chang - I think that she is one year ahead, so the 6th book may be the last we see her.

Not necessarily. The series has become increasingly driven by events occurring outside of Hogwarts, and the 7th book is likely to be the culmination of this trend. Obviously, it will probably contain the final showdown with Voldemort. But more importantly, it will likely show the 7th-year protagonists (especially Hermione) considering Life After Hogwarts, and that means an increasing focus on the outside world. Either storyline could involve contact with a non-Hogwarter like Cho.

My guess is that, if Cho is a significant figure in book 6, then she will also be part of book 7.

I think this was the first book where we did not get to visit Diagon Alley. I did not realize this until Fred and George said they had a shop there. I guess we will vivit the Alley and the Shop in the next volume.

As far as the likelihood of seeing Cho Chang in book 7 (after she presumably graduates from Hogwarts) goes...well, there's a bit of a precedent, isn't there? I mean, we've certainly seen a lot of Percy since he's graduated, haven't we?

OK, finished the book in 2.5 days at 2am, and rather enjoyed the read even though I kind of wanted the ending to feel a little more climatic than it did, but hey, I think this was the second act set-up to the final act of books 6&7. Anyway, I loved the way that they fleshed out some more of the characters in this book, especially Neville. I actually felt very sypathetic towards him after the St. Mungo's scene (the bubblegum wrapper being the clincher for me).

Minerva has become my new hero in life. As a teacher, I can't tell you how many times I've had my ire raised by the government putting another restriction or test or other silly thing on us that is supposed to make things "better," but in the end is making it harder to actually teach the subjects. I found myself rooting for Minerva as more than just her character but as the archtype good teacher tired of having her classes and worked looked down on by people who quite honestly couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag yet still seem to think they know "what's best." So you go Minerva, the educational world is behind you. "It unscrews the other way!"

I think Cho's gone, guys.

I may be totally wrong but I think she is just a Rosalinde and someone else will get to be Juliet.

I reason it thus - Harry's feelings for Cho aren't ever stated as being based anything other than looks and in a novel that probably isn't enough to be that interesting in the long term. He also seems to have accepted their break up by the end of Book V.

I think Luna is probably a surer bet for the longterm.

I am probably too late: I am pretty sure most people have already left this thread behind for good. Nevertheless, I finally finished the book now and after some computer trouble I am also able to post again - so that I want to add my thoughts.

So far I have only read PAD`s comments but after having posted this, I will start reading the rest of this thread.

My husband and me, we both enjoyed the book very much. It is very long but we both think, there is nothing in it that should have been cut. I agree that there is also filler in this book, but it is filler I found interesting and which enriched the story for me. It gave me another opportunity to appreciate and enjoy the richness of this universe. Usually descriptions bore me but not this time.

I agree with everything PAD said about the positive sides of the book but not with the negatives: I can`t see any negative aspects.

I see "The Order of the Phoenix" as a counterpoint to the previous book, a book in which Harry was pretty much a hero. Not without help, of course, and there was a price to pay, but a hero nonetheless. This time, Harry is much more a victim and he is fallible. He makes mistakes but he is certainly not the only one who makes serious mistakes.

What touched me so much is how well I could understand Harry although I could see from early on that the way things are going, it must end in a tragedy. Snape hated James and he hated Harry - and the feeling was mutual. It is ironic that Harry now has a real reason to hate Snape. The way things have been going in the book I guessed quite quickly who Mrs. Rowling killed off - and could appreciate again how well her series is planned. It fitted perfectly. That this person did not only die completely un-heroic but in essence for nothing only makes everything more tragic. No, I don`t see this as a weakness of the book at all but a strength. Mrs. Rowling seemed to have avoided all the cliches of heroic fights and sacrifices on purpose. It only made this war against Voldemort more realistic. Harry was much more a 15 year old youngster with believable problems instead of a superboy. It was also good to see that he is also surrounded by people who have weaknesses as well and how dangerous overconfidence is against such an enemy. I think this lesson was even necessary to enable Harry and his friends in future to actually beat Voldemort.

I am not surprised that Voldemort was looking for the prophecy: WE know what is in it but not him. To him, Harry is the biggest obstacle to achieve his plans. He was hoping to find the key to be able to defeat him. He couldn`t know that this prophecy would be useless to him now.

I think "The Order of the Phoenix" is one of the best written tragedies I have read so far. My husband and me, we both think it is an excellent book.

The thing I can't wait to find out is what everyone got on their OWLS. I don't belive we have to wait until the next book to find out.

SPB

I'm probably the last lonely poster to this thread, but only finished the book over the 4th of July holiday (two weeks is ancient history in this fast-paced world). I enjoyed the book. I did think it was padded out a bit. "Goblet of Fire" could have gone on and on (I felt the same way about "Shogun" and "Lonesome Dove"), but I didn't have that same feeling on this one. Harry did come off as a bit unsympathetic, but he also came off as a very realistic 15 year old who has gone through absolutely horrible experiences. And I'm sure as the story arc continues, his heroic nature will come to the fore. The only fault I had was that I would think that Snape would, if not still be postitively inclined towards Harry, at least not treat Draco and his cronies so grandly as Snape knows their parents are Death Eaters. Still, we may see as the story arc heads towards completion a reconciliaton between Snape and Harry, and maybe even a redemption of Draco (he may be like a sheltered son of organized crime). Still, had to say I enjoyed it. Glad we still have Ron and Hermione, and hope the next book isn't too long off. (Hello? Anybody out there?)

Hi JimO,

Yes, there is at least one person left reading the comments on OotP! I have been interested in everyone's opionions and enjoyed reading yours.

I've also gone back over the earlier books this weekend and now agree with Rachel (earlier post) that I have a horrible feeling that Dumbledore's going to turn out to be evil. Mostly based on Dumbledore's reaction in Book 4 to the news that Voldemort has now managed to overcome his mother's spell and hurt Harry:

"For a fleeting moment, Harry thought he saw a gleam of somthing like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes."

It goes on to then say Harry is sure he must have imagined it but if that was truly the case, then I doubt it would have been included in the first place.

book 5 also sounds a few worrying notes, not least Hermione's statement "If we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anybody" which is followed by a starred paragraph break, the novel equivalent of a long pause.

Hope I'm wrong, but there has been something of a running theme of apparently good people turning out to be rotten to the core running through the novels.

Caroline, you gave me hope of continued dialogue. I'll just say I don't think Dumbledore will turn out to be evil. I honestly think some of what we read into the book is imperfect writing on Rowling's part,though I think she gets better with every book. I thought Book 3 was very awkward, but 4 she really got into her groove. Still, I think Dumbledore will be a constant for good. He might not survive to the end of Book 7, but I'd say he'll be in Harry's corner.

I also don't think Dumbledore will turn out to be evil (at least not in a simplistic 'He's-Revealed-To-Be-Working-With-voldemort!' way.)

I do think, though, that we've already seen enough examples that Dumbledore is, for whatever reason, not telling Harry everything. He may be, Obi-Wan Kenobi-like, given to dissemble as to his true plans for opposting Voldemort, or the true peril that Harry's in, or what Harry will have to do, or something like that.

Then again, perhaps Dumbledore will prove ultimately ineffective in whatever the final battle turns out to be, and Snape has to step in. Which'd make some amount of thematic sense, I suppose...

As for that major character's death: All I know is, I've read enough comic books to know that no one's really dead if you don't have a body. (And, even if there's a body, you still can't be sure, ask Jean Grey.)

Shortly before this latest Harry Potter was released, the BBC here in Britain broadcast a longer interview with the author.

No, the character in question is definitely dead, dead for good.

Now I'm going to be the last one to post here (I hope not).

On the other hand, when folks thought they unearthed a secret at the climax of Goblet of Fire that'd play out in the future, it turned out not to be an intentional hint from Rowling, but a mistake that was corrected in future printings... Still, it's natural and fun to guess what might happen in the next books.

Can anyone out there explain what this means? I have the first printing, so I've missed any "corrections."

Did they really Americanize the last two books? There was a mistake in "Goblet of Fire" because of the Americanization. Here's the story:

I was fortunate to be able to hear "Philosopher's Stone" while reading "Sorceror's Stone." Remember in the first chapter, when Dumbledore offers McGonagall a "lemon drop" (American version)? It's a "sherbet lemon" in the British version.

In the American version of "Chamber of Secrets," when McGonagall takes Harry into Dumbledore's office, the password she uses is "lemon drop." But in the movie version, it's "sherbet lemon." Obviously, Scholastic had changed it again.

But in "Goblet of Fire," when Harry tries to break into Dumbledore's office, the password he tries is "sherbet lemon." To stay consistent, Scholastic should have changed it to "lemon drop."

Anyway, regarding "Order of the Phoenix," several people compared Umbridge to Hitler. I don't know if there's a British equivalent of Ashcroft or not, but I took the Umbridge characterization as a shot across his bow. Toad-like, indeed.

Harry waiting in dread for word of a Voldemort attack certainly reminded me of the way I was checking the news in the weeks following the attacks of September 11, 2001. I'm sure Rowling was dealing with her own fears and feelings. The real world coincidentally intruded on her storyline.

Am I misreading the comments above, or is everyone under the impression that Voldemort now knows the prophecy? I don't see that at all, unless Voldemort was looking through Harry's eyes during Dumbledore's talk with Harry at the end.

A couple things I don't understand: How did Voldemort know well enough what Sirius looks like to make the phony vision realistic, and — more importantly — if Lily Potter wasn't magical, how come she was at Hogwarts?

Raymond writes:

On the other hand, when folks thought they unearthed a secret at the climax of Goblet of Fire that'd play out in the future, it turned out not to be an intentional hint from Rowling, but a mistake that was corrected in future printings... Still, it's natural and fun to guess what might happen in the next books.

Can anyone out there explain what this means? I have the first printing, so I've missed any "corrections."

Sure, I'll explain, since (I think) I was the one who brought it up in the first place.

At the climax of Goblet of Fire, Harry's wand and Voldemort's wand get caught it a sort of magical feedback loop (I think they called it the "Priori Incantatem" phenomenon) that causes Voldemort's wand to eject shadowy remnants of the spells it had previously cast. Since Voldemort's wand was basically used for, you know, killing people, this means that the wand sends out ghosts of the people Voldemort has killed recently killed--including Cedric Diggory, James Potter, and Lily Potter.

As I recall, in the first printing of Goblet of Fire, James Potter's ghost emerges first, then Lily's. Later, in describing the feedback phenomenon, Dumbledore explains that Voldemort's wand was sending out its previous spells in reverse order. This would imply that Voldemort killed Lily Potter before he killed James Potter, but the descriptions of the Potters' murder we'd had in the previous books implied just the opposite--James was killed first, then Lily.

Eagle-eyed readers thought that they'd come upon a clue that would play out in future books--that the circumstances behind the Potters' deaths weren't exactly what we'd been lead to believe.

But, it turns out, this was just a mistake, not an intentionally planted clue. Future printings of Goblet of Fire were amended so that James & Lily's appearnce from Voldemort's wand was reversed, and so that Dumbledore's description of the phenomenon is less precise (I think he says that the wand spewed out its previously-cast spells, but not that it did so in exactly reverse order...)

Anyway, that's the gist of it. Given how comics fans have long since made a secondary hobby of noting continuity glitches, I find it amusing and strangely encouraging to know that those same glitches happen in novels, too...

Firstly, I would like to say that I loved this book. I read it in one day, started at lunchtime for a couple hours, broke for work, then almost non-stop from 6:00- 1:30. I had to know who died, and what was in the prophecy.

Secondly, I wasn't surprised to find out how cocky and arrogant James and Sirus were at school. We saw hints of it when we found out in the third book they all became animagi so they could keep Remus company while he was a werewolf, and they were leaving the shrieking shack and roaming the village.

Why is everyone so surprised about the magic of staying at the Dursely's? The last book as much as sayed -- or at least I totally inferred -- that he was magically protected while at the Dursely's. Dumbledoor even said in novel 4 that while one avenue of protection was gone, theter were others that Voldemort did not know about.

When Harry is with Voldemort and the Death Eaters after Voldemort's resurrection, he says that Harry has been protected by Dumbledore in ways he (Harry) could never imagine: "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there ...:"

I've also gone back over the earlier books this weekend and now agree with Rachel (earlier post) that I have a horrible feeling that Dumbledore's going to turn out to be evil. Mostly based on Dumbledore's reaction in Book 4 to the news that Voldemort has now managed to overcome his mother's spell and hurt Harry:

"For a fleeting moment, Harry thought he saw a gleam of somthing like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes."

When I read the quote about the triumph, I thought, maybe, this has something to do with how he protected Harry. Maybe there is something in Harry's blood that will help kill Voldemort. Then, at the end of book 5 (which I can't quote because my mother has it) he said that inside the Department of Mysteries there is a door that is kept locked at all times because what is inside it is good but is also a terrible force, and that Harry has this force inside him in such quantities that Voldemort could not possess Harry's body for long, that it was in Harry's very heart. Blood is in your heart.

Also, because of this passage in the book, we know that Voldemort still doesn't know what is in the second half of the prophecy because Voldemort was trying to get Dumbledore to kill Harry for him (by possessing Harry), and the prophecy states that either Harry must kill Voldemort, or vice versa.

and — more importantly — if Lily Potter wasn't magical, how come she was at Hogwarts?

Lily Potter was like Hermione Granger, a muggle-born witch; Petunia Dursley mentions something about it in the first book; "oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that - that school - and came home every holiday with her pockets full of frog-spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak! But for my mother and father, oh, no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!"

The only fault I had was that I would think that Snape would, if not still be postitively inclined towards Harry, at least not treat Draco and his cronies so grandly as Snape knows their parents are Death Eaters.

We know Snape is the double-agent, and that he is working for Dumbledore and tricking Voldemort. How do you trick Voldemort? He is an excellent Occulmenist, as Remus tells Harry. However, if Snape knows Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are all children of death-eaters, then these kids also know that Snape is (posing as) a death-eater. If Snape treats them badly, it would get back to Voldemort and then we know Voldemort would kill him and that would be bad for his role in the Order of the Phoneix.

I hope this helps clarify the points/questions people had.

When is the next Harry Potter coming? I hope it's soon, I don't know if I will make it another three years.

It's been questioned before which of the characters would pair off romanticaly. In an interview with Katie Couric, JKR seemed surprisd when Couric asked if Harry and Hermione would become a couple. She responded by saying NO, Ron and Hermione. I got the impression that Harry would end up by himself through books 6 & 7.

Neville has always shown strength of character. He stood up to Ron, Harry, and Hermione is previous books. This must have been hard for him as they were some of the few people who treated him with respect. Shy and awkward does not equal slow and stupid. He may not be the prophesized one but I think he will prove to be heroic.

I think Percy has definitely crossed over to the dark side. He has always been a power hungry weasel and his new position in the Ministry can only deepen his greed. Sirius was the only good person in his family so why can't Percy be the only bad in his? He may not become evil but he certainly isn't innocent.

The first book was excellent and the fourth was a wonderful ride but the fifth was a mild disapointment. Following a ranting and pouting Harry through 800-odd pages was not enjoyable. I understand that he is a 15 year old boy but still, one does not change from a sweet-tempered, mild-mannered, well-adjusted 14 to a disturbed, depressed 15 in two months without someone caring enough to help him.

I also think Hermione acted out of character in this book. Yes she had mellowed a bit by book 4, but still, who can really believe that she would let Harry go off to London without at least telling Snape, the one member of the Order left. She obviously believed the dream to be a fake.

All in all it was a good story, but if it was the first in a series, I don't think I would read the rest. Of course the first four got me hooked and I'll read the next two, but I hope they are better.

It's nice to see this thread still has some life and that not everyone read the book in one day. Getting back to Jocelyn who commented on my remark about Snape treating Draco, et. al well. I thought Voldemort knew Snape had gone over to Dumbledore and said something to the effect he (Voldemort) planned to kill Snape (this was at the end of Goblet of Fire). I didn't get from the Books that Snape was trying to deceive the bad guys that he was still on their side. In fact, I inferred that the reason Fudge, Jr. as the ersatz Moody showed such hatred towards Snape was because he knew Snape had switched allegiances.

I think JK Rowling is deliberately maikng it very unclear as to just what the tasks that Dumbledore has given Snape are. Harry assumes that it is to go back to spying for the Death Eaters, but it is never anywhere stated that this is the case - it is all supposition on the part of other characters. (Well, apart from Umbridge's exasperated comment about Lucius Malfoy always speaking so hihgly about him when he refuses to help her).

Against the spy argument is the evidence quoted by JimO - Fake Moody and Voldemort did not seem anxious to welcome him back into the fold in book 4.

This is not surprising. After all, people who have spied for the other side presumably have a tricky time of explaining how they can be trusted again.

Bring on Book 6 where presumably more can be revealed!

You can't be 11703 serious?!?