PeterDavid.net

i agree with you dave....i started reading jones' run with his first issue. and it wasn't bad. like to see where it was going....found out that it was going no where. i dropped it myself. too much other good stuff out there to be bothered with a so-so book.

i like the kingpin mini that bruce jones is doing.

I have no opinion on the book because I don't read it, but I have a different question for the readers and posters here:

How long before some troll or flamer posts to accuse Peter of sour grapes because the book he left is so successful? A day? Three days?

I say three days or less. Any takers?

Place your bets now.

"I have no opinion on the book because I don't read it, but I have a different question for the readers and posters here:

How long before some troll or flamer posts to accuse Peter of sour grapes because the book he left is so successful? A day? Three days?

I say three days or less. Any takers?

Place your bets now. "

LIAR! Just because Peter's jealous of the books current success doesn't mean he's got sour grapes in his refrigerator!

...Errr... YOINK! (runs away)

Well Peter, I don't get it either. Sorry I can't be of more help. You comments on pacing really rings true. I read several of them in a row and didn't feel like much was happening at all. I tried the 25 cent issues and again thought it could have been done in about 12 pages. And where is the HULK? They need not bring back the "Professor" version of the Hulk but, dang, we should least get to see him more often. Yeah, I'm not buying it.

Hmmm...fans...I think people will support what they want to support, what they think is cool at the time.

Marvel should put you and Walter Simonson on it! Yeah!

Shawn

Well Peter, I don't get it either. Sorry I can't be of more help. You comments on pacing really rings true. I read several of them in a row and didn't feel like much was happening at all. I tried the 25 cent issues and again thought it could have been done in about 12 pages. And where is the HULK? They need not bring back the "Professor" version of the Hulk but, dang, we should least get to see him more often. Yeah, I'm not buying it.

Hmmm...fans...I think people will support what they want to support, what they think is cool at the time.

Marvel should put you and Walter Simonson on it! Yeah!

Shawn

Although I haven't gotten to the post-50 issues, I'm having a good time with the Bruce Jones run. Granted, the only run I haven't enjoyed over the years was the first 12 issues of this volume of the Hulk (so bad I won't buy them ever, not even if they were a dime each), but I'm fine with the book.

Then again, I'm no longer a monthly comics reader. I buy a box of comics each month, and then read each title when I get "enough" of a book. There just aren't any comics anymore that look to "pay off" a monthly reader anymore- the joy is in the extended storylines, and there's plenty of joy there.

But that's me. For all I know, this last story was terrible. I did like issue 50, though.

I think the Bruce Jones run has definitely had some good issues, but there needs to be a lot of plot resolution before it goes any further. I'm still lost about the whole Ricky Meyers thing...did that happen before Jones' run started?

When do we get 22 pages of Hulk just smashing stuff (preferably for no apparant reason)?

Personally, I adored the run until the last storyline. I like conspiracy tails (altough they tend to make or break on the revelations, which haven't happened yet), and I've enjoyed his use of the other characters (even if he missed a few plot points, like the fact that Banner has seen the Abomination's wife before, back in your run). That said, the last storyline was dreadful, and a ludicrous misuse of one of Marvel's more fun villains.

To be honest I really didn't like the last 5 issues.

I got the feeling that the absorbing man was brought in because of the movie and jones didn't really have a handle on how to use him so he created this power that i've never seen before to try and turn it into a psychological drama.

I don't know if you're going to get too many people to come in and say i liked the last story arc.

I'd have to go back and reread the earlier stuff to remember what I like about it (not a good sign i know, but it's been a few months)

I have no idea either. I found myself reading the first story arc and thinking, "hmm... everyone is shot in the dead center of their foreheads. If I were Monk, I would find this a very meaningful point." But, ultimately, it means nothing.

I suspect mass hypnosis has propelled the book into the top 50. It was much better a few years ago. Man, that last PAD issue was one of the best ever. It was so good, that for me, it is the end of the Hulk until "The End." Unless Peter comes back to Bruce and company someday...

I get it so I'll try to help but I have to preface this:

I only liked the first 15 or so issues. Once the book went to an "arcs only" policy it got bad. Let me explain. Before "Dark Hearts,Dark Minds" it was one continuos story. It felt like it was just gonna keep going, paying off on occasion but really just be an entertaining story of a man's journey across this great land helping others. Sort of "The Fugitve" meets "X-Files". Jones put in several mysteries the biggest being who Mr. Blue is.

This all lead up to the fantasic # 49 where we found out who was responsible for the boys death and such...great stuff!Not to mention the awesome covers that seem to have become just faces...but I digress(sorry if that's trademarked PAD).

Then came # 50 which was good, but then we started with the "arc only" method of comics. Instead of the growing conspiracy and different characters showing up and going away and such it became almost as if there was a edict handed down."Ye shall only do stories about bad guys vs. good guys in 5 issue increments".

I loved the flow of those first 15 issues. I loved the covers and the suspense.

Oh and as to HULK not showing up enough, technically he shows up plenty, we just don't actually see him altogether.

I can't really say. I read only the 25 cent comic (which was ok, but not great) and some previews. It seems ok..but from what I've heard: no Hulk, only Banner..I don't know.

The issues I read of your run PAD are really good. I admit when I first read them I didn't fully appreciate them, but after reading them I really liked them. Specially the -1 issue about Banner's father!

I really need to read more of it. I missed a lot there.

I think though one of my favorite runs by you, maybe my favorite run by you, was Spidey 2099. That was an awesome book! I am missing a few there. I really need to get those ones of these days.

Anyway...the last time I read the Hulk regularly was at the start of Paul Jenkins run. Now his run I liked. Of course, I liked some of Byrnes, but Jenkins did good. I did fall off from Jenkins run though..not because I didn't like it but because of money. *sigh*

I have a couple of Jenkins Hulk, a couple of Byrnes, but I think the Hulk run I have the most of is your run PAD.

I may try Hulk again some day..but from all I've heard of Jones run I should just wait till the next person. OR maybe just go back and get some PAD issues. Any suggestions on great PAD Hulk issues?

DF2506

Hmmn. Well, truth to tell, I guess the book works better for those who are more intrigued by Bruce than by the monster. I have read near constant howling from the monster fans from day one. The argument that the monster rarely appears is pretty universal amongst the die-hards who feel they have a stake in the book. And I know that, given your still-lauded run on the title, you might feel more comfortable with those readers' views.

I can't personally say I am a current reader. Falling behind nicely. And I haven't had an opportunity to see how Bruce is making out without JR Jr. But to tell you the truth, I think I collected the issues I did, and enjoyed them immensely, because they made so little of the monster.

It is interesting just to see them attempt to do something so unlikely with a title that can so easily be relegated to the traditionalist trash heap. Too many of Marvel's current titles, my beloved x-books included, seem more than content to tow the line and slip beneath the waves of spandex and pirate names.

It's no doubt my age and temperment showing through, but I quite welcome the more X-Files/Spooks sort of flavour of Jones' run. It's a stark contrast to much of what Marvel is willing to put out. I find it rather reassuring to see them not deliberately clipping his wings the way they have so many others in the last couple of years for better sales margins, yourself included.

Few of the really standout mature titles at Marvel have been allowed to remain since the changing of the guards, and few if any of those introduced or beefed up under their tutelage have been allowed to flourish. I strongly doubt even it will go untouched. I see little evidence that the powers that be have any true longview there.

That said, I'm sorry that the title as it stands isn't working for you. I'm not following it closely enough to offer a better opinion, but I have to admit that I probably enjoy it for its subtlety, a thing that has rarely been present in that title.

There have been few periods where I've been tempted to pick it up during the last couple of decades. However, I truly wouldn't mind owning afew more of its current incarnation, before that too no doubt is swept under the carpet for a more flamboyant vision.

I liked the Paul Jenkins run. I read the first few issues after he left and dropped the series. It bored me.

I'm just not much on Marvel's current offerings. Over the last year, my Marvel reading has dropped considerably.

Peter,

I've been reading and collecting the Hulk since the Tales to Astonish days. Your run on the Hulk is my favorite, although there have been some other good takes on the character. Frankly, I attempt to follow the new run but am not greatly entertained. Bring back Joe Fixit! By the by, I love your run on Captain Marvel.

"That's not even taking into account that the Absorbing Man talks and acts nothing like the Absorbing Man of forty years standing."

Ah, movie tie ins and the gun Marvel holds to the writer's head.

I also find it interesting how all of the images I've seen of Doc Ock in future Spider-Man issues looks just like the Doc Ock from Spider-Man 2. I suppose they'll have to change the way he acts and speaks to fit the movie version as well.

I have to agree with not liking the last five issues. Jones' early Hulk stuff was great, making the Incredible Hulk the monster he was originally intended to be. When Hulk came out, you knew it meant only destruction, not some hero there to save the day.

Bruce Jones once said in an interview that he and his dad saw "Jaws". When he asked his dad what he thought of the movie he replied, "It was good. But they never should have shown the shark" Jones' applied the same theory to his early Hulk run. Don't show the monster, and the reader will actually get excited when he does something. All Hulk all the time takes away from the anticipation of seeing a "Hulk-out" This is what I thought made the comic enjoyable to begin with. But back to these last five issues, they were just terrible. Only interesting part about it was introducing a new power to Creel, and that was even lame until they showed how messed up he could be when he threatened to slice the little girl's throat.

All in all, "Hide in Plain Sight" could have been much better, but I'll continue to read Jones' run because A)I'm a die-hard Hulk fan, and 2) I wasn't exactly impressed with PAD's Hulk stuff untill about half way through the run (Sorry Peter!) but that all turned out gold in the end.

I lef the Hulk alone for a lot of years after PAD left, but I got back in with Jones first two trades and I then went to the monthlies with issue 42.

I have no friggin' clue as to what in the hell this is about anymore.

I look at the sales charts and wonder who is reading this-and why!

The initial story, introduced almost 2 years ago still has yet to see any resolutions, payoffs, or hints beyond ....crap, there hasn't been anything.

I've never read anything more unfulfilling in my life.

Yet it's a big seller.

I don't think I'd be friends with any of those people. Waaaay too boring.

Peter, it's not you. I'm a long-time Bruce Jones fan as well, from Ka-Zar, Twisted Tales, Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction and a few other books that I can't remember at the moment. I picked up the Hulk again only because Jones was writing it, and for the past several months, I keep wondering why I'm buying it. The first two storylines have moved at a glacial pace. The characterization is weak or non-existent. And I'm a bit underwhelmed about the art too. Regarding the Absorbing Man storyline, you're absolutely right: when did Crusher Creel become so erudite? Granted, he had plenty of time to read while in jail, but most of that was spent breaking out and getting his ass kicked by Thor or the Hulk. You can't just change 30-odd years of continuity simply because you feel like it and not get called for sloppy writing. Jones could have at least mitigated the change (if indeed he was aware of it) by slipping in a line of dialogue about spening five years in the prison library, Or maybe absorbing some of the intelligence from the brains he's been possessing; something, anything, throw us a bone, Bruce! At any rate, that's $2.25 that can be better spent elsewhere.

And before I forget, can we put a permanent embargo on rip-offs, swipes or homages based on Steranko's Hulk holding up the logo? Enough is enough already.

I've been reading Hulk and have been planning to drop it for several months now, but I figured I'd wait it out until the end of the story that I'd ordered the first couple of parts of.

As nearly as I can make out (and I'm another one who's been reading Hulk since he displaced Hank and Jan from Tales to Astonish), these stories don't make a heck of a lot of sense. But I'm not one of those big conspiracy theory guys, so maybe I'm not the target market.

I like Jones Hulk. Well - its different. Its more about Banner and the evil government. Its not the most original storyline - but I feel like it does keep moving. Are things being resolved? No. But I don't mind as long as the trip is interesting.

Keep in mind - I have never ever felt your stories moved slowly. I feel most of your work moves at a pretty brisk pace, with some sub plots simmering for a while.

Bruce Jones I feel is writing a less super-natural X-Files.

You wrote a Super-Hero book.

I like both genres.

I prefer your run (not all of it, but when it was at its best - it was great). But if both titles ran at the same time (forgetting about continuity) I would read both.

Actually Bruce Jones book would be better if it was not a part of the Marvel Universe. I don't see why no one is helping clear Banner's name.

Anyway - I actually don't know if this clears anything up for you (over why its considered good).

-Kevin Hines

actually i wanted to add you've read the last year so probably the the 2 five part storylines which is where it was weakest. I mean you can't really get what's goin on unless you started at the begining of his run which is problematic, though it's funny there are a couple of single issue stories near the begining of the run that are good (his first issue and the first story he did with doc sampson, but now it seems he can't fit a story into 22 pages.

it seems to be something a lot of the writers nowadays have trouble with.

Peter can do it, Bendis can do it, Busiek can do it Ennis can do it, Ellis can do it. Loeb's done it, but i don't read a lot of his work. Moore and Gaiman can obviously.

I'm sure there are others but like loeb i don't read enough of their work.

(I do find myself wondering if jones actually has a plotline post conspiracy. and that's why he's stretching it so long.)

I'll say this though. the line in #49 where the hulk says we are a reasonable colossus struck me a very david line. (maybe you disagree, but i was struck to the similarite to the x-factor crossover where hulk is talking about how he's a rocket scienticst and an encyclopedia and a walking tank.)

I don't know what the current reaction to the series but i think people are really starting to demand answers to the conspiracy.

Well, I can tell you why I liked it at first. It was an interesting take on the character, some neat conspiracy stuff, some *gorgeous* artwork from John Romita Jr., and it seemed like Jones was building up some interesting mysteries and character arcs to be explored.

Two years later, he's still building up mysteries and character arcs, JR JR is gone, and there seem to be no answers in sight. The X-Files problem all over again.

Honestly, if I could take back all my positive reviews of the early issues, having seen where the book has eventually gone, I would.

I'm pretty much in agreement with other people here, that I was enjoying the book until the last few arcs. I was actually about to drop the book when I found out that the next storyline will once again address the main plot. So I guess I'm sticking with it for a little bit longer, though I'm dubious. Good timing, I guess.

I definitely think that the previous two arcs should have been condensed. Ten issues is a long time to be away from the main plot, even if the book occasionally comes out twice a month. (Does it? I can't remember.) In comics, it's harder to get away with a sidestory (let alone two), given how long people have to wait between issues. Every issue needs to remind the reader, "This is why you're reading this book. This is why a month is too long to wait for the next one."

Well, the only Hulk run I ever really read was your's. But, I heard such good things about Jones that I checked it out, and it wasn't that good. I like mystery and even long lasting stories, but his writing on the series just isn't that good.

I haven't understood the appeal of Jones' run from #34. He introduced one interesting idea -- that Banner has learned to control the Hulk through meditation -- and that is it. For the life of me, I can't think of one instance where we have learned anything about Banner's character. Portrayals of the Hulk have been inconsistent as well, and the dialogue has been atrocious.

Part of me suspects that Marvel's sales numbers are jiggered, so that the book appears to be selling more but I have no idea why they would do that. On the other hand, every comic book store I've been to (three, west side of LA) has had plenty of issues for people who want them.

I agree that the last 5-Issue Absorbing Man plot wasn't up to great standards, but it wasn't a completely bad story arc.

I've really been enjoyed Bruce Jones take on the Hulk. Although I still love Peter's Hulk run - this one does seem to get back to the original premiss of the Hulk: that of Hulk being hunted, and Bruce's dealings with the monster inside.

I think Bruce Jones is using some Horror Story tactics. And although the Green side of Hulk isn't sean as much, it packs more punch when he does show up. The end of Dark Minds, Dark Hearts, for example had a huge fight scene with Hulk and The Abomination. It was almost all action, but also dealing with the underpinnings of Emil's ex-wife - and Banner's new relationship with her.

You see, durring the Tales to Astonish stories, it was all one big story arch, moving from one story to another. Also Banner and Hulk where used to solve diffrent situations. (Defusing a Bomb: for Banner - Destroying Mad Aliens: Hulk) After issue #102 it slowly started to become mainly Hulk being hunted - without Banner to be seen as much.

At least thats how I see it. Having Hulk destroy for 22 pages are always good for a jolt, but Banner's dealing with the Beast is the true core of the series. I think both Peter and Jones have done this admriably, even if it's done in very diffrent ways.

I also am very pleased the movie didn't strongly influence the book. Besides the Crusher Creel Arc, it hasn't looked like the movie at all - and I like the fact when comics don't try to emulate a movie altogether so much.

Also, the only realy problem I had with the arc was that, prior to this story, Creel was being used by Dan Jurgans in Thor. Creel hasn't shown up since then, which I hope they don't do - just for the sake of keeping Continuity in tact. Although I think a logical explaination would be, since Creel reformed for Thor, Thor insisted Creel pay for his crimes. Thus him being in that prison, and probably all but too pissed at being back there. (Yet he still might be a Thor worshiper, but still not liking other Superheros)

Anyway, that was my biggest complaint, above all about his use in this story. The Mind Control thing, I believe, while weird, was a logical extention of his powers - and how the Original Asgardian Magic may have developed with him over the years. (Basicly he learned a new trick)

Sorry, Pad, can't tell you why you don't like it - but there are readers like me who like it. I've read old Hulk issues, your issues, and even Paul Jenkin's issues. I've loved them all. Maybe it's just becuase of my age, not being that old, that I have a more accepting nature to the diffrent takes on the series. (After all, what you like the first time is usually what you like the most. People who saw your run, and Angry Hulk for so many years, that seeing him diffrent is a change some don't like or accept.)

Honestly I think the main reason it is so popular is simple marketing and promotion. I read the book before Jones came along and you definitely got the impression that it was a second-tier title that Marvel never felt the need to advertise or promote in any way. The we had the movie going into production and suddenly a huge hype factory was cranked up about the amazing new "smart" take on the Hulk by Bruce Jones. And the book started to get some really cool and beautiful cover art.

People sometimes group together all those who don't like Jones run as people who want more Hulk smashing, more Hulk in general, more action etc. While all of those things would be nice, the book has bigger problems even. New fans may praise the book becuase it "focuses on Bruce Banner and not the monster". I couldn't disagree more. Who the hell is Jones's Banner? He is a bland well-intentioned protagonist who wanders the country aimlessly like some benevolent hobo. Any personality, motivations, desires, opinions on his current plight and or plans to get out of it have been sucked out of his head by Jones who has stated on more than one occaion that he sees Banner as an "everyman" character. So we are left with a guy who stumbles from issue to issue, occasionally sleeping with some woman who is trying to kill him.

The whole time he is stalked by a nameless, faceless pointless organisation led by "the mouth" which devises ever more unlikely and incompetent schemes to obtain a sample of Hulk's blood. These guys have all the great ideas. "I know! Lets surgically implant a camera into Doc Samsons eye." Unfortunately Samson woke up with perfect eyesight and naturally assumed that while he was asleep a group of secret agents had kidnapped him and surgically implanted a camera in his eye. He is clever like that. This was after he was punched several hundred metres through the ceiling of a roadside diner, landed shaken but still conscious and was promptly knocked out from behind by a woman carrying a stick. Amazing stuff. And critics gushed the whole time about this new realistic "smart" take on the Hulk. I haven't even mentioned the series highlight when that secret agent was electrocuted in his chair by the ruthless Mouth a la Austin Powers. I guess they had run out of sharks with fricking laser beams on their heads.

But Banner has faced some pretty nasty and dangerous individual opponents hasn't he. Well one in any case. Whether it is his own creation or an established character all Jones' villains use the same interchangeable dialogue, no matter how they may have behaved in the past. "Ah, the redoubtable Dr Banner, so pleased you could make it. I did so enjoy our last discussion on Coleridge..."" blah, blah.

The whole idea of not showing the Hulk to build suspense that Jones got from his boyhood trip to the movies would be great except for one thing. We have already seen the Hulk for the past thirty years, we have seen what he looks like, how he acts and we have seen him portrayed a hell of a lot better than we are now. Its not suspenseful, its just annoying.

As to why I continue to buy the Hulk, thats because I love the character and would, god help me, probably keep buying it if it got even worse. And I've nobody to blame but myself for that. But that is the psychology that you must understand to understand why people buy the book of an established character like Hulk when they aren't even enjoying it whereas Captain Marvel would probably struggle no matter how well it was written. I know thats not the answer to the question you asked but its somewhat relevant.

Again asto why Jones Hulk is popular: hype, the movie build-up, pretty covers, a nice familiar conspiracy story just like off TV and relentless, thoughtless critical praise.

hh

I'm 30 years-old and have been a comic book reader and collector for 27 years. I learned to read from issues of Superman and The Hulk. Maybe this is why the two characters appeal to me the most. My Hulk collection started with an issue featuring the Leader. I don't recall the issue number right now.

That being said, I have got to agree with Peter on this. Bruce's stories are crawling at a snail's pace, and many plot threads are still dangling in the air for me. He's telling a story in five issues when it can be easily told in two or three issues.

I also don't like his characterization of Doc Samson. He seems to have become more like the Samson of the early 1970's for me. I kept hoping Jones would do something new with the characters. Instead, I feel like I'm getting a rehashing of the old "Bruce Banner on the run trying to clear his name" story mixed in with "X-Files" rerun scripts.

I loved the way Peter and Paul Jenkins handled the characters in The Hulk because they wrote in a way that made ALL of the characters intersting for me, and added unexpected twists to the various stories they did.

Jones, however, is writing slow, predictable stories that seem to be flushing continuity down the toilet. I keep sticking with the Hulk hoping a new writer will come along. In other words, I don't understand the popularity of the Bruce Jones run either. He's capable of writing horror and science fiction, but his Hulk stories leave me disappointed.

P.S.

Where the hell is the Hulk in the Bruce Jones stories? We see very little of him. The comic book IS called THE INCREDIBLE HULK, not BRUCE BANNER.

James Heath Lantz

PAD,

Maybe I'm mistaken or have you mistaken with another columnist somewhere, but I thought in a recent BID column (a few months back maybe?) you highly praised Bruce Jones's run on the Hulk?

Anyway, I personally find Bruce Jones's run on the Hulk way too drawn out and boring. Nothing really happens and nothing seems to get resolved. When I read Jones's first arc, I thought it was pretty good and a nice change of pace... but little did I know that Jones would turn out to be a one trick pony. I read the INCREDIBLE HULK because I like reading about the Hulk, but he's usually MIA (sure, he appears on the covers, but that's usually it!). They might as well just retitle this comic to "The Incredibly Drawn-out Adventures of Bruce Banner" and start another title that actually stars the Hulk.

I've been reading Bruce Jones Hulk since #34, and whilst I've liked it for the most part the last story arc was one of the lamest I've ever read.

But, as to why the book is so popular ... I think a lot of that has to do with the artists.

Let's see the roll call -

1. Johm Romita Jr.

2. Lee Weeks

3. Stuart Immomen

4. Mike Deodato Jr.

And well, okay, 5. Leo Fernandez.

But that kinda proves my point. Arc number 5, with arguably the weakest artwork of the run so far, is the arc that no one likes.

I know that if Mike wasn't coming back for arc 6 I wouldn't be either. Jones' stories just aren't doing anything for me at this point.

Honestly, Bruce Jones may be creating Hulk's worst stories EVER.

First, the lack of Hulk got tiring, predictable and very stale.

Second, all characters speak the same way.

Third, all villains are sexual abusers (hah!).

Fourth, the title has NO respect for continuity (not even with Jones' own continuity, as he never ceases do contradict his own stories).

Fifth, all women seem to be one-nighters.

Sixth, the Absorbing Man story was WAY beyond the pale. His new powers are ridiculous and weren't even explained. And the end of last issue, where Absorbing Man died after "absorbing" a dead person, was ridiculous, since he always absorbed the abilities of non-sentient beings (rocks, bones, glass etc.). Plus, I'd love if someone cared to explain WHY or HOW his mind was sent to the body of a newborn in China.

Seventh, too many unended/ unexplained subplots (conspiracies, eh?).

Eigth, Banner and all other characters behave like morons.

Ninth, the pacing is way too slow.

Tenth, Super Banner is ridiculous.

God, how we miss you, PAD!

In all honesty, I keep buying the book because I like the Hulk as a character. I remember when I used to wait in anticipation for the next part of the story. This doesn't happen anymore, I simply "read" the issue, and come away from it not feeling anything.

I would find it extremely difficult to persuade someone else to read The Hulk, from the current storylines alone.

In fac, the single thing that I feel is hurting this book the most is the seemingly enforced 5 or 6 issue story arcs. What used to feel like an ongoing saga, now feels like a series of unconnected mini-series'.

Maybe after 30-odd years of 'Hulk punches bad guy in the head' it's nice to see someone try something else. I agree, it's taking too long to resolve things but, as someone who left Hulk even before you did, it sure was nice to hear Jones was doing something with The Hulk that seemed different and original. So I can see why Jones's run *became* popular, as to why it's *staying* popular -- hello? Since when do comic fans stop reading books just because they stop enjoying them?

I read Jones' run until issue 50, at which point I dropped it like a bad habit (well, honestly, I tend to keep my bad habits, but anyway).

Having read the Hulk for over 20 years, my only answer to your question is an echo of what the poster Hal Henke wrote. Marketing and promotion.

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but the fact is, in a lot of cases, if you tell people something is "new and refreshing" they will believe it.

For example, a buddy of mine was arguing with me a few days ago about whether or not THE ULTIMATES was a good read. He kept using the words "witty," "edgy," and "sharp" over and over again. The fact that he kept using these particular words, and words like them, struck me a little funny. They weren't the kinds of words he would normally use. They WERE, however, the kinds of words a reviewer of comic books at Wizard or any number of comic book websites would use.

I think if we read about a comic, whether or not it lives up to our expectations, sometimes we let ourselves believe it did, regardless. Particularly when it's one of a whole truckload of titles being re-vamped in this new "sharp," "witty," and "edgy" style. It's probably something hard for folks to swallow. No one likes to think of themselves as being easy prey for marketing and promotion, but if you think that's not the case, just remember that crappy film about a sinking boat actually won an Oscar.

Okay, somebody let me know if this makes any sense:

I quit reading Bruce Jones' Hulk after the first issue of the return of the Abomination. I agree about the snails' pacing. I agree about nothing happening. I agree about it seeming that he's almost ashamed of the Hulk character. Those are all reasons I dropped it.

But...

I can see why some continue to buy. It is true that Bruce is not writing the Hulk. He is writing X-Files. However, there are many X-Files fans out there, and Bruce does a good job of building tension and intrigue (though he never resolves it). This is, in an odd sense, an ideal format for the serial comics fan; always leading you on, and if you don't think too hard about what you've read or what you're reading, you may not really notice that it's not going anywhere. And most people don't think too hard about it. So there is an inertia that Bruce is pretty successful at exploiting with his constant dramatic build-ups, so much so that people forget that they aren't resolved simply by virtue of the fact that they're caught up in the next issue's dramatic build-up. So, those of us who look at series in the bigger picture are going to say "Where's the beef?" while the rest are going to say "I can't wait for next issue!"

Note; I am not one of those who say "All comics have some redeeming value." I am thoroughly convinced that Uncanny X-Men is selling solely because it is Uncanny X-Men, and that there are many more people who WON'T buy it because of Chuck Austen, than those that buy it because of him.

But even though I don't particularly care for Bruce Jones' Hulk, I can definitely see that it has a specific appeal to a specific audience; the audience that likes the style, the mood, and isn't all that concerned with a story actually meaning something. Does that explanation make sense?

"As to why I continue to buy the Hulk, thats because I love the character and would, god help me, probably keep buying it if it got even worse. And I've nobody to blame but myself for that."

Actually, I will blame PAD. I find myself in the same boat; wanting my Hulk fix, and I blame Mr. David. And I know where and when my habit started.

I was at my grandma's funeral with my whole family. After dinner one evening, we went to a drug store to pick up a few things and I wandered around, eventually stopping by the comic section of the magazine rack. I saw Superman and Flash and a few others. I knew the names and faces from the TV cartoons, but didn't realize there were magazines about them. My Grandpa asked me if I wanted some and of course I said yes. I was reading Supes and Flash now. (That's not Mr. David's fault). I found a comic shop near my home and became a regular. The owner saw what I was reading and asked if I was interested in anything new. He offered (ON THE HOUSE!!!) a comic that had been around for awhile but had a new writer start. It was Hulk #330. I was hooked. I liked the way the story was written and it appealed to me on a level that I appreciated all of those years ago, and can appreciate on a different level now. So yes, I am addicted and need my FIX, and I blame PAD. But you'll never hear me 'complain' about that.

What I would like to know, and hopefully get a response to, is why Marvel allows such blatant miscontinuity in it's comics? Everyone that has posted already has stated what they like or don't like. My personal feelings about not seeing the Hulk in his own book are that it is a waste of time. I know people that count the panels and pages and get excited about that. Is it me or is that just sad? But that is a different issue... why is it allowed that a writer can completely change the history of characters with no explanation. The incidents with Nadia Blonsky and the Abomination smacking her around, Absorbing Mans apparent attitude change, the misuse of Banner and Samson, etc. I just want to know why.

Thanks for reading.

What has always bothered me about the Hulk is the lack of evolution of either the Hulk or of Banner. PAD's run changed that wonderfully, then when he left, it got worse.

Banner was used to being superhuman but had no problem casting that aside and being a recluse. Banner SHOULD have changed drastically, found being merely human frustrating, AND his considerable brain should be wrapping itself around some real challenges in new and fascinating ways, not through passive-agression.

Either that or he should be so panic stricken about any change that he becomes mentally unstable (hard to do a book with that, but an arc or two would be nice).

Ah well, it's not like I read comics anymore anyway. :(

Okay, I'm gonna get slammed here, but I'm reading how many people don't like or understand the book anymore, and the thought occurs to me (and this doesn't specifically apply to HULK, tho' it's not my cup of bacon personally):

Why are you still picking it up?

Why do you continue to blow hard-earned money month after month on a comic you've clearly lost interest in? Just to keep your run complete? Hoping it will get better, but seeing month after month it's not to your tastes?

Why not just drop the book from your reading list if you're not ENJOYING it?

Or, as Ernie Fossilus might say:

"You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll kiss three bucks goodbye."

I have to agree with Peter. I kept buying the book hoping for something to happen. Although it had its moments, on the whole it as been a pretty boring run. This story line was the last straw for me. I have taken the book off my pull list and wont be picking up the Hulk for the first time since Peter left.

It is a slow book, but it has a steady tone (though very long) and is able to keep it. Plus after the reboot of the Hulk *shudder* it now seems much better. I do hope they wrap stuff up and get things going smoother, but I have a feeling that some of the stuff was related to other issues [big number 50, tie in with the movie, make arcs 5-6 issues for trade paperback, etc...] that caused story the story to get longer and longer.

I was with it all through the Abomination storyline (which did, indeed, drag, but was at least done so with "purty pitchers").

I read the first two of the Absorbing Man story and jumped off the bus.

How long until we find out that the supervisor with the plastic surgery is really Betty Banner?

Ok here's a potential spoiler if I've pieced the clues together properly. I believe I've deduced the identity of MR. BLUE, and if it's who I think it is, I'm very curious to know what you think of this Peter. So I'm going to put it in the happy inviso thread just to be safe...

OK. I tried three times to make it inviso and it isn't working for some reason so with that I'll just put...

SPOILERS.

It's been revealed that Mr. Blue is a woman, who has had extensive plastic surgery done to conceal her true identity, and she works for an agency which can apparently resurrect the dead. Even a moron could figure out that it's Betty Banner..

Some people on a few boards I've posted this theory on have stated that this is a slap in the face to all PAD fans. I was just wondering what your reaction was to this turn of events. That is if they turn out to be true.

It doesn't sell though. The sales charts for the last few months were out-of-whck because stores wanted to have issue in case the movie became a big hit. It wasn't. Call any store and they're chocking on copies of Hulk. The next sales chart should reflect a huge drop on sales of Hulk.

PAD,

Do you ever still read the Hulk Message Boards? You visited about a year ago, and it was great. I was just curious, because if you went there, you'd see that almost *none* of the posters there are enjoying this latest take. I mean, there are people on that board who love your work and people who hate it (as you well know), but it's almost unanimous about Bruce Jones' stint -- which is that it's terrible.

It was really sad, for a while -- there was a period there where it seemed like every other day, someone would post to say, "Well... I'm finished. I've stopped collecting Hulk for the first time in years of collecting." (I was one of 'em ... I dropped the book like a hot potato after seeing the way Jones completely gutted your Nadia Blonsky character -- did you have any thoughts on that development, by the way?)

The only thing I can think of is that a lot of people have been taken in by the massive push of the book into believing things about the run that are patently untrue -- we get the occasional new poster to the boards who likes Jones, and he'll say something like, "This is so much more interesting than just 'Hulk smash' all the time."

To which someone will typically reply, "Yeah, maybe ... but then the comic book was never just 'Hulk smash' all the time, and in fact that version of the character hasn't been the star of the comic for for 20 years." To which the original poster typically has nothing whatsoever to say.

So, who knows? For me personally, it's not so much the pacing of the stories (I don't think slow-paced arcs are automatically bad), or even the fact that the Hulk often shows up off-panel. For me, it's just that the stories themselves are so crushingly *bad*. Terrible dialogue, cookie-cutter supporting characters, storylines that are a smack in the face the stories of previous characters (again: Nadia), and worst of all, a Bruce Banner with no seeming personality or agenda -- these are the things that finally made me say "No more."

Oops. "Previous characters" should be "previous writers" in the above post. Sorry.

I'm just curious to see how many of your old stories Marvel is going to let him ignore or contradict. Your run showed that the Abomination was a tortured man who loved Nadia and decided not to reveal his identity to her because she might see him as a monster. In Jones run, Abomination is a mysogenist wife-beater. I guess shades of gray make villains too complex for Bruce Jones. And for some reason, Nadia somehow knows the Abomination's identity, while Bruce miraculously forgets her, despite saving her (IH #384) and using footage of her to torture Emil (IH #25). And let's not forget your final contribution to the title -- the death of Betty Banner. Now she's an espionage agent who infiltrated HomeBase to keep Bruce updated on their movements. While she's out doing this for him, Bruce sleeps with everything that moves.

I've liked most of the Jones run, though (apparently like everyone else here) the most recent arc was a pretty total loss for me.

One thing that I think a lot of PAD's run has in common with the early parts of Jones' run is a sense of foreboding. There are light spots to be sure -- smaller victories here, good jokes there -- but the Hulk is generally considered Not A Good Thing to have around or to have unleashed, and I think both writers captured that fairly well in different ways.

Now, whether the book gets back on course after the last arc or two, I dunno. I think he gets another storyline or two before I decide he's just headed in directions I don't like.

TWL

Jones started out doing the "Unbreakable" thing... instead of what everyone expected, he gave us a character study. Which is fine. But too much character study and not enough story and action makes Homer go something something.

They need to get a grip. And Jones needs to see what works at one point in time does not work constantly. A character needs to be dynamic and grow. And if they do not, then they stagnate.

Travis

if "taste" meant anything to people alias #22, Powers #31, and Y the Last Man #11 wouldn't be coming in 75, 79 and 80 overall.

o btw: That same month, Namor #2 managed to come in 43, outselling those three titles as well as another you might have heard of "Captain Marvel".

remember people buy comics

1)For character

2)For the art

3)For the ads

4)For the letter column

5)For the Greg Horn cleavage Cover

6)For the chance to meet "comic babes"

7)For the chance to seal them in plastic cocoons so no one EVER reads them.

8)Then...FINALLY for the writing. As a writer myself PAD im sorry but its true.

Thank you for this thread, PAD. Otherwise, I would not have known what was actually happening in those issues. I read most of your run on Hulk, missing only one or two of your first issues on the title, I think. Overall, it was a pretty solid run that took a little while to get it's steam built. I collected those few issues after you left due to artist and to see what could be done but mostly cause I am a purist. I tried the Byrne run on vol. 2 and gave it a few issues out of respect for the last time he was on the title and kicked serious ass (for me anyway) but it felt lacking in direction and Tyrannus is a POS villain. Paul Jenkins run got my interests piqued and I enjoyed it. From the start, I got some of that old kick reading Hulk that I hadn't had since your run (pre- Heroes Reborn). Sure he contradicted/erased some of what you added to the mythos ("Professor Hulk" being the biggie since it never felt like that was what your intention was) but he made those "new" facts work for the story and the characters still felt true. Then Bruce Jones took over. Marvel made a big deal of basically saying Jenkins was crap, now watch something REALLY good. So I gave it a shot. Granted he had my interest only because I wanted to see the Hulk. It's like reading 3 Musketeers. You want to get to that "All for one" part. I wanted to see the Hulk. He was going to be bald apaprently since Bruce was pretty much bald. My only problem was that the STORY was so damn boring I had to re-read the issues every time a new one came out. I know someone posted that his initial storyline was a drawn out plot but it barely moved. There are writers out there that can keep a plot going over time and still tel fully plotted issues. David, Waid, hell, even Claremont used to do it and can still to some extent in X-treme X-men. Some writers can tell a complete story in TPB size (3-6 issues) and not waste a page. I felt that the initial storyline could have been summed up in maybe six issues. I won't talk of his... problems with Bruce's characterization or any of the villains since that has already been summed up nicely above and I will only add that it was like Mark Millar was writing the character judging by his Ultimatre work which basically amounts to take a good person and make them a A-hole. No, It was the action that was missing the most. Like another long form entertainment, it just felt drawn out. Hardly any issue felt contained within the 22 pages allotted. Maybe it would work better as a long book but then again I tried that and it was still too damn slow. I can appreciate taking a different perspectivve on a character. It has to be done at times. but at least make it entertaining. I quit the book shortly after I dropped the x-men books (except for x-treme) and sent letters in to Marvel via email to explain my frustrations. Of course, they stopped printing letters then so I felt like I wasted my own time. Now this has probably gone on too long to just say "It's probably the covers and because people are told to buy it and because some of the issues jumped in backmarket price due more to no overprinting and low initial orders than quality" but then again I am not writing a comic.

When will Marvel figure out that the pacing on a monthly comic shouldn't be the same as a pacing on a full on old style graphic novel? If they continue to tell writers to drag out good stories that could be told in 2 or 3 issues maximum to 5 or 6 issues, the sales on the monthly books are going to drop until they can't warrant compilation into a trade paperback due to the poor sales and negative word of mouth. How do they expect to hook new readers to a series when so many of their first issues have no action at all and, in many cases, hardly any or no appearances by their starring characters?

None of this excuses Jones' use (or should I say misuse) of the Absorming Man. I think it's time for another "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe" for creators to use. This story was riduculous and embarrassing. Luckily I didn't have to put any money down for it since I read the first two issues of a friend's and didn't bother with the rest.

I do miss Paul Jenkins' approach to the book since it was so influnced by Peter's run.

I may have to buy several of the upcoming issues myself though due solely to the Deodato art.

I tried the first few Bruce Jones issues because of the JR Jr. art (actually, I tried the free previews at Marvel.com before actually buying the issues, because all the other post-PAD issues I'd looked at sucked royally), and I found I really liked the new direction he took the book -- the mysteries and conspiracies intrigued me. What's going on? How will this be resolved?

Well, however many issues later, the answer is: it won't be. Not in any satisfactory fashion, to match the degree of build-up and anticipation Jones has established. It's the "Twin Peaks" of comics -- by the time he gets around to explaining how Laura Palmer died, so to speak, no one will care anymore.

When JR Jr. left after the first few issues, I stuck around because the story still intrigued me. Then I stuck around out of habit. Then out of sheer stubbornness, I think. And now, with this horrible, horrible Absorbing Man arc, I've finally given up. I didn't even buy the final issue of the story, because I just didn't care. None of it rang true, all the characters were doing stupid, out-of-character things... it's just a mess, an awful mess.

Schteve: What I would like to know, and hopefully get a response to, is why Marvel allows such blatant miscontinuity in it's comics?

It's not just Marvel, it's DC as well, which is actually the worse of the two -- at least Marvel never made a really big deal about internal continuity. DC had a big event that relaunched their entire universe because continuity had gotten too far out of control, but they're regularly ignoring or retconning things. The reason they do it is so their star writers can be lazy. Six months ago, Judd Winick's first issues of Green Arrow and the Titans/YJ crossover Graduation Day both came out. In GA, he's presenting us with an Ollie from right before the GL/GA crossover from the '60s -- somewhat enjoyable -- and in GD he everyone in the story was characterized completely contrary to how they were portrayed in YJ #55 -- horrifying. Graduation Day was one of the worst comics I've ever read, and I'm not just saying that because I was a big fan of YJ -- and worse, Geoff Johns (DC's Golden Boy) has been using those awful characterizations in Teen Titans, and has retconned Impulse and Superboy both for a throwaway line and an unnecessary retelling of the origin, respectively.

SPOILER: The short version -- Apparently, Superboy was cloned from Lex Luthor, not director Westfield. "What? You mean I'm not cloned from the worst person I ever knew, I'm just cloned from a guy I don't like? NOOOOOOO!!!"

I've been reading the current HULK series only since Jones's run started. At first, I loved it, and felt it was very fresh. Slowly, it started getting repetitive and stale. I'd enjoy an individual issue well enough while I was reading it, but overall, the issues were forgettable and completely interchangable, and I was enjoying the series less and less. I started thinking about dropping the title in favor of trades. Issues piled up in my folder, and I finally made the break.

Unfortunately, I was stuck with buying the Absorbing Man arc as my shop was overstocked on it and their HULK sales are plummeting. So I read the last four parts in one sitting.

Man, what a stinker.

Some people are blaming Leo, but I liked his art both here and on QUEEN AND COUNTRY. The problem is simply that the story stunk on ice, that Creel was neither believable nor threatening nor in character, and that it was, frankly, unclear what was going on for most of the story. I mean, c'mon, it's Crusher Creel, not Hannibal Lechter. And how does mind-jumping even fit in with "absorbing"? At least give us a rationale for the changes!

Now, I've read online that Jones is going to be addressing the issues that some have had with the series -- the glacial pacing, the endless subplots/mysteries, and the lack of Hulk in his own book -- beginning with Deodato's return.

But you know what? Too little, too late. I'm off the monthly. Perhaps I'll buy a trade of the next storyline if it gets good reviews, but I'm through blowing money month-in, month-out on this.

I recently asked my comics retailer a similar question.

The reason why? Because it's Hulk, and it's Bruce Jones.

Because of those two factors, die-hard collectors will buy copies in volume sight unseen, and will probably never crack the cover to read 'em (that would hurt their mint-condition value!)

So basically, Marvel has guaranteed sales with this one, even though they don't have guaranteed readers.

I totally agree. The pacing in a lot of books recently is sooooooooo slow. And for 3 bucks it's more than I can stand. I've dumped some comics that I've been readin for 15 years because of the pace and all these new characters with the same names and faces of characters of the past.

Hey why was Rick Jones black for awhile there in CM? Not racist just wondering.

I think everyone has pretty much covered my opinions on Bruce Jones run on the Hulk. Hal Henke in particular. You just said it so much better than I ever could have.

Part of the reason I read this board is because I sought out information on the Web about the Hulk after Jones took over. I honestly couldn't believe how horrible it was and I wanted to see what others thought and how well it was selling.

I was amazed that Jones was taking the Hulk to levels of popularity he hadn't seen since Peter's run. And I was even more amazed at the masses of people who praised it. Through all of that reading, I never once found a compelling reason as to why this book is any good. If you are a conspiracy fan, I think that you have to be disappointed in how sloppy the stories are. If you wanted to see Banner developed, well what exactly have we learned about him in two years? He is a whore? Sick and tired of "Hulk Smash" good, that hasn't been the case in twenty years.

Why do I hang on? Morbid curiosity, I suppose. My Wife dreads the time that I come home with the latest issue of the Hulk because she knows I will be angry all day after reading it. Perhaps I am atoning for sins committed in a past life? I must have been a bad, bad man in the middle ages to deserve this.

Mark B.

Nekouken--There's no concrete evidence that there's been any change in Superboy's origin. The information is from an anonymous E-mail, which is probably from someone trying to mess with Superboy's head (probably Deathstroke, at a guess). (And if you hate it so much, why are you reading it?)

I can only hope that when Bruce Jones finally leaves the book, Bruce wakes up and goes to the bathroom to find the Hulk in the shower a la Patrick Duffy on DALLAS, realizing the last few years were all a bad dream.

When JR Jr. left after the first few issues, I stuck around because the story still intrigued me. Then I stuck around out of habit. Then out of sheer stubbornness, I think.

Reminds me of a line by Lewis Black.

"The NFL has done everything in their power to make the SuperBowl unwatchable. ^&*() you! I'm going to watch it anyway."

Travis

I can give you two very good reasons why I like it:

1. No giant snake incapacitating the Hulk.

2. No major de/reconstruction of the David Age.

As a long-time Hulk fan (since I was a little boy), I have never been more put off by a series of stories in this (or any other)comic. The last two years worth of HULK have made me loase almost total interest in the character. If not for the movie (which I loved), upcoming TV show DVDs and back issues I probably would have lost interest completely.

As to your question, Mr. David... I have no idea. It seems like the art plays a large role in people buying this title. The art, for me at least, has been the one saving grace for HULK lately. Part of the success, I think, also lies in drawing in legions of new fans who never cared about the Hulk before - and, frankly, still don't care about him as a character. They (I'm just guessing here) enjoy the stories, but don't give a fig about the Hulk or Banner or any of the other characters. When Mr. Jones leaves, so will these new readers.

If I offend someone by what I'm about to say, I'm sorry. I've noticed that there are a lot of fans in the hobby who absolutely HATE super-hero comics. They put the rest of us down and look down their collective noses at us. When one of us long-time fans brings up the way things used to be, we get shouted down as wanting only mindless action comics and stupid "cliched" spandex characters. I think that, in large part, this is the kind of fan that is attracted to Mr. Jones' HULK.

I also think that other are being drawn to this title because of positive reviews from the "snob" category.

Hype and good reviews will go a long way.

Of course, I may have lost all good taste in comics and Mr. Jones' HULK may be the best thing ever.

Where the hell is the Hulk in the Bruce Jones stories? We see very little of him. The comic book IS called THE INCREDIBLE HULK, not BRUCE BANNER.

Mr Furious: "Bruce Banner IS the Hulk."

The Shoveller: Not THIS again! Bruce Banner wears glasses. The Hulk doesn't wear glasses."

Mr Furious: "The glasses are his disguise."

...Anyway, I have no idea what the purpose of the last story arc was. I don't feel that it fits with the main story arc (but I do feel the Abomination arc does fit), and I really hated the characterization of Creel. Of course, the art didn't help at all. To give me the likes of Leo Fernandez on the heels of what I think was Mike Deodato's best run ever was bad enough. Then to try and make Creel out to be so evil, it just doesn't fit the "kinda bad but mainly misunderstood" guy I've been reading about for the past 27 years now.

Also, I do not really care for the "X-files" approach to the book, though if there ever was a guy who had the whole world out to get him, it's Banner. I don't buy into the "Hulk blood" thing either, as it should be the same as Banner's blood, seeing as how Banner is the Hulk. The fact that Jones has presented a super-strong Banner is just further proof to me that the blood is the same no matter what shape (or color) Banner's outer form takes. In any event, it sure beats the recent FF story on the Thing's angry dermititis.;-)

Having said all that, I have enjoyed Jones' take on the Hulk, even if I don't completely get it. In fact, maybe I like it because I can't guess where it's going next. I'd REALLY like it if the Pantheon was to show up, especially if they were the ones behind the whole conspiracy.

dAN

Well, the first few arcs of Bruce Jones on the Hulk were fantastic, I think. Taking the monster out of the picture and focussing on the man, thus making the Hulks appearances, which had become mundane and runof-the-mill, a shocking and wonderful scarcity again, was a great idea, as was the handle on the Bruce/Hulk relationship. The haircut, the meditating, Mr. Blue, getting rid of continuity and rebooting to a mix of the Lee/Kirby and the TV-Hulk, ad mixing that with a distinct flairt of mystery writing (plus verrry great art by Romita Junior)... there was nothing wrong with that.

The more Jones re-integrates the Hulk into the MU, the more we see that he ha ssome problems with that Abomination and Absorbing Man aren't even close to the way they have been shown to be in recent decades (and, worse, they're not BETTER or more interesting) and the stories feel as padded and extended as those awful early 80s-12"-remixes. I'm giving the book a shot until Deodato returns, but it is very close to flying out of my pull list.

Thanks for bringing this up, PAD. And I can tell that this is in the fans favor, which is all the better. :)

I think that the Hulk is currently suffering from the same kind of syndrome that the X-Men are: too many protracted storylines and soap-opera stories as well. Yet why anyone would want to buy a book that doesn't even feature the Hulk in it is beyond me.

Addiction to comics is one of the most facinating, to say the least. But it's got a downside, of course: if you don't like the direction and still keep on buying the book, then the company won't get the message and will continue to ruin it.

Sometimes I've wondered if collecting in some ways is similar to a childhood fondness to our favorite teddy bears. But of course, while we may love the characters, that doesn't mean we have to love what's being done with them and their books, and if it's bad, then we should be appalled, and to stop buying would be very strongly advised. Mr. DeGraff, I can't tell you how to make decisions, but in all due fairness, it may not be a good idea to buy the book as long as it helps Jones out in boring us to death with his Nowheresville approach.

As for Green Lantern and Green Arrow's crossover, while I haven't read it, I did discover that it's got some [not too surprisingly] insulting dialogue in it, and the arguments betwen Ollie and Kyle were stereotypical at best. If so, then that's hardly at all the kind of story I'd want to waste my time on.

Graduation Day is certainly the worst miniseries from DC this year, and an insult to Donna and Lilith fans. Let me be clear here that I would rather have a speargun at my head than read many of Judd Winick's books, and in my opinion, the overrated Pedro and Me was little more than an exploitation of his own "best friend" for the sake of his own biased agendas. What, you don't think so? Then why was the "and Me" needed in the title?

There have been plenty of ways in which the showbiz market's been exploiting the dead and other such things in past years, as even Marvel did with Amazing Spider-Man 36 in 2001, and as far as I'm concerned, Winick is no different, period.

Peter, thanks so much for seeing the Emperor has no clothes. The pacing is horrible, Creel is totally out of character, and the Hulk showed up in two panels of a five-issue story. Did you notice that the Hulk lasted about five minutes, then switched back to Banner in the middle of a fight? Why? Has that ever happened before? I’ve noticed that when the Hulk appears (which is rarely), he is around EXACTLY as long as Jones needs him to move the plot slowly forward, no longer. He doesn’t really do anything besides look mean, throw an occasional car and sniff people. If Jones doesn’t want to write the Hulk, why is he writing the HULK?

And isn’t suddenly giving Creel the power to switch bodies kind of gilding the lily? He can already turn to concrete and smash your ass! Where would he get the power of switching bodies? How? Is there an editor at work here? Anyone?

Jones’s first few stories weren’t too bad (although Marvel should have changed the book to BRUCE BANNER, FUGUTIVE for his entire run), but this last one was done by folks who have never read a Hulk comic before. Maybe Marvel thinks that’s cool and hip, but I think it drains further their very shallow pool of credibility.

I have read Marvel comics longer than three years. Therefore, Marvel hates me.

I buy it because my first comic was Hulk #367. It continued to the best run of comics I've ever enjoyed. Since then I buy the Hulk every month, its a part of who I am and one of the things I choose to do in life. The hypocrasy is that I do find the current story very slow, but something will change eventually and new stories will come. Maybe, someday, I'm hopeful for another run like #369 - 377.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this....But has anyone seen the Denzel Washington movie entitled "Fallen" (or maybe "The fallen) from a few years back? If you watch that movie...wait, no you don't have to. The last 5 issues of the Hulk were basically the comic book adaption of that movie. Essentially the same story, just with different characters. (I'm not sure which is worse though, the movie or the comics)

Mike :)

Seems like other people don't get it. Has anyone seen the latest Wizard comics review? They blast Hulk.

Sorry if this has been pointed out...I had to stop reading after post #56...

Carlos

You know, prior to Bruce Jones, I used to really appreciate issues of “The Hulk” where we got to see a lot of Banner. Maybe that’s because I initially jumped on board as a kid around #223, where we actually saw Banner “cured” for a couple of months. To me it was always a treat getting to see Bruce the man, even during those many times in PAD’s run when Bruce’s intellect was guiding the Hulk. But that guy that Jones is writing just ISN’T Bruce Banner. He comes across as some generic sex addict on the run rather than a tormented scientist. He could just as easily be Bruce Springsteen as Bruce Banner. And yes, the stories are drawn out more excruciatingly than “Meet Joe Black” and really are completely incomprehensible. What’s worse, we never even get to see Hulk beat the living @#*!#*! out of some other big muscled guy anymore. Even if I could actually afford to still actively collect comics, there’s no way this piece of dung would get anywhere near my reading list.

I haven't seen anyone address this, but then I also am pressed for time and had to just skim...

I think anything is a good Hulk read with the memory of what Byrne did in the first few issues of the restart. Maybe that is what has everyone so up about this current run.

Just my opinion,

jeff

Sigh...

You guys have totally got at what my problem is with HULK. I liked some of Jones' earlier issues, but he really screwed up on the last two arcs, especially with his characterisations of Absorbing Man, Abomination, and Nadia Blonsky. And he also has Doc Samson refer to himself as a physicist, instead of a psychiatrist. And what's with the woman in the bikini that Bruce thinks about when he's meditating? It can't be Betty he's thinking about - Betty was a brunette (most of her life), this woman is blonde. This, and how Bruce slept with Nadia (a lot), makes no sense, and is disrepectful to Betty and Bruces' character. Betty was the only one for Bruce, and besides, he's too emotionally repressed and awkward to fall into bed with a woman he's only known a few hours. And now I hear rumours of Betty being brought back as Mr Blue - this is bullshit. Peter David's story of her death was wonderful and powerful, and now it looks like they're going to screw it up. It's like what happened with AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400 - J.M.DeMattias wrote a great story in which Aunt May died - and later Bob Harras (who kicked PAD off Hulk), Howard Mackie, and John Byrne, bought her back to life in a truly horrid story, revealing that she'd been kidnapped by the Green Goblin, who had replaced her with a "DNA-altered actress", and... ah, forget it, it's just too horrible.

Also, the current Hulk is supposed to be more realistic. Well, for all its superheroes and supervillains, aliens, whatever, I found PAD's run on Hulk more realistic, more enterataining, and more in depth, in its portrayals of characters and in its plotting, than any of what Jones has given us so far.

And by the way, it's just entertainment. You think you're getting your money's worth, fine. You don't think you're getting your money's worth, just don't buy the book, until you think it'll be worth picking up again...that is to say when Bruce Jones finally ends his run.

I've enjoyed Jones' run on the Hulk. I found the stories intriging and the art is usually great.

But, I am convinced that the stories are all 5 issues long because Marvel mandates it. Each story arc is perfect TPB size. Jones comes up with a story and then pads it out to get 5 issues.

While I continue to buy Hulk and Daredevil (where this is also happening), it could get me to drop a book I wasn't enjoying quite as much.

I don't have hard proof of this, but there have been rumors for a while. Mainly, I don't think writers of Jones' and Bendis' caliber would only write 5 issue stories. Wouldn't logic dictate that they would occassonally have a 2 or 3 issue story arc?

I like Bruce Jones. His first year of stories was interesting, and I liked the fact that the focus was on Bruce Banner, and not on "Hulk Smash!" because, well...as great as it is to see Spidey, I love Peter Parker. As fun as it is to see Superman, I truly care about Clark Kent (well, not lately, but...you get the idea).

I'll agree, it seems like Marvel is trying to ride the wave of the movie by throwing in the Absorbing Man.

What I will say is that there are promised changes coming on the book, so I'm hoping it'll get better.

I like the Hulk, too, but I entirely get the whole schtick about Banner being on the run from the Hulk.

I loved PAD's run on the Incredible Hulk. This certainly doesn't top it, but it's better than the first year of this volume, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

I just hope I'm wrong about the identity of Mr. Blue. As much as I love the character being hinted as Mr. Blue, to bring her back into the book like this...could be a bad idea. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll be surprised.

But then again, thinking about the movie's main characters, part of me thinks..."Nah. I'm probably not wrong." We'll see.

I tried Jones's Hulk when he started his run but it was boring as hell so I dropped it. Also Jones doesn't seem to have any respect for continuity (his horrible Kingpin series) so that automatically makes any book written by him a big no-no for me.

Why does the book sell? Dunno, at least the artwork has been gorgeous.

I still don't get all the hoopla over Jones' Hulk. I keep getting told by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs such an emotional wallop.

To me its seems like the old Bill Bixby tv show where I was bored to tears for 40 minutes until Lou Ferrigno showed up.

I always liked a good Bruce Jones story. He was one of my favorite writers. But on Hulk, I tried the first couple, was bored beyond belief and decided that as far as I was concerned the Hulk ended with PADs last issue. I don't mind a slow well thought out story, but some of these "sagas" are just too padded out. I'm beginning to have some doubts about this trend of writing for the TPB market.

I just don't get it either. I feel like this book is being bought by people who just don't like the Banner/Hulk mythos and history. It's the only way that the sales make sense.

Banner is a complete cypher who's jumping in bed with a woman just because she drops her clothes?

Abomination's been revealed that the only thing he's missed about Nadia, is that he hasn't hit her in years.

The married, thuggish, Absorbing Man, who's currently helping Thor is suddenly inprisoned, speaking like a scientist, and threatening to rape the closet women around.

The constant use of women in lingerie hold no bearing on the plot.

Plots contrdict post-and current-Jones contnuity.

Everyone talks the same, and all the dialogue is bad.

The Hulk sis non-existent. And contrary to popular belief, Banner is not being concentrated on. We have no more insight into him than we did with issue 34. Less actually, since he's not even acting anything like he's been previously been portrayed.

And still, the book is in the top 20.

I agree with PAD on the current Hulk regime. I'm sure Bruce Jones is a terrific writer, but he's not showing it on this title. As for the alleged "popularity" of this title? Don't believe everything Wizard says.

Oops...I meant "Aintitcoolnews" review, not "Wizard" review. Sorry.

Yeah, them too.

I haven't read the most current story arc yet, since I buy them in trades (which is how they are written now, to be blunt), but Jones is doing something new with the character. Dealing with the horror of having a monster inside you that you can't control.

PAD dealt with it at times, but no one has looked at the book and said, "This is a horror comic" since Ditko. And I believe there is a HUGE need in comics for horror comics.

When PAD left, I didn't say I would never buy the Hulk again, but I did read some of the following issues and found them painfully lacking. The ones by Bruce Jones are so different that I don't even think of it as the same character. That's why I like it so much.

And, it's nice to have Bruce Jones back. Maybe he'll do some stuff like his Twisted Tales and Alien Worlds...short stories, which is also something comics are painfully lacking.

I still don't get all the hoopla over Jones' Hulk. I keep getting told by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs such an emotional wallop.

Yeah, but that only happened because the shark looked so fake, so awful, so unconvincing, that Spielberg had no choice *but* to keep it off screen for as long as possible. Otherwise he would've lost the audience with the shark's first appearance.

PAD

Thanks to all of you who responded to this question. I'd dropped the Hulk after Peter's last issue, and had not bought another copy since. I kept wondering what I was missing as I saw glowing reviews of Bruce Jones' take along with reports about how well the book was selling. Now I know that I wasn't missing anything I can't live without, and I can go back to waiting for the next issue of Captain Marvel or Fallen Angel or TMNT or Soulsearchers.

I still don't get all the hoopla over Jones' Hulk. I keep getting told

by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where

Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark

fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs

such an emotional wallop.

Yeah, but that only happened because the shark looked so fake, so

awful, so unconvincing, that Spielberg had no choice *but* to keep it off

screen for as long as possible. Otherwise he would've lost the audience

with the shark's first appearance.

PAD

Actually, the mechanical shark didn't work for most of the shoot, necessitating rewrites that emphasized character development over people being eaten alive. In the subsequent films, the mechanical sharks worked better so they emphasized people being eaten over character development and... well, there you go.

I've noticed several people mention that they liked Jones' early focus on Banner. Besides the meditation (which I agree was a novel development), can anyone point to one instance of actual character development anywhere in Jones' run? I don't mean what he did -- that he sleeps with a lot of women or is on the run or what have you -- but some indication of or insight into Banner as a character?

I can deal with not having a lot of Hulk or with a horror focus to the title. The approach doesn't put me off, but the execution certainly does.

Best,

Deron

What's old is new. Did anyone else ever notice that during PAD 12 year run on the Hulk that the Hulk was intelligent (not to mention down right crafty) for well, 12 years. But if during those 12 years if you asked the average person on the street or even most comic readers to do a quick impression of the Hulk 9 out of 10 times you would have gotten "Rrrrrr Hulk smash!" as a reply. I always thought that was pretty amazing, especially considering PAD's Hulk is probably the first Hulk alot of younger readers ever encountered. As for Bruce Jones' run on the Hulk, If you're going to write a book called "The Incredible Hulk" there two things you really should keep in mind. One, you need the Hulk and two, he should be incredible.

I bought the 25 cent issue and thought that Jones did a good job of making it seem like more was going on then actually was. The rest of the arc I just read at the comic store. I can't believe it took 5 issues to tell this story. It could have been done in 2, 3 issues tops.

I only buy the comic anymore because it's a habit and I don't want to break my run, even if Marvel tried it's best to make me do so with all the renumbering. I started reading just before you came on the title, Mr. David, and you made it one of my favorite comics of all time. Some of the writers since I've liked, others I haven't, but the current run just leaves me scratching my head at just what in the hell they are thinking taking it that way. It's not just the Hulk, though, 90% of the Marvel titles have gone that way for me. I blame Jemas and Quesada, since I noticed things starting to f*** up around the time they came around, and they just seem to keep heading that way more and more. I don't know how long I'm still gonna be reading any Marvels, runs be damned.

On Banner's characterization:

Jones himself has said that Banner is supposed to be a sort of Everyman, and Everymen tend to be a little light on the characterization. All I really know about his Banner is that he's a good guy struggling to keep control. In earlier arcs, Banner interacted with ordinary people more, and I feel that developed his character more than the current arcs have. It might have been Romita Jr.'s artwork, but I could really feel the weight of responsibility on Banner's shoulders in those early stories.

Kaare Andrews has made a significant contribution to the popularity of Incredible Hulk It'll be interesting to see how well the title sells now that he's gone, but I'm convinced many people began reading Hulk because of those cool covers.

Like some sort of geek analog to Tim Burton's Beetlejuice, the Ain't-It-Cool-News comic crew will appear if mentioned too often, and so it is that I - one of the contributors - have been summoned!

Our group's collective take on Bruce Jones' INCREDIBLE HULK (generally speaking that is - after all, we're made up of ten different reviewers) is that it began with much promise but ended up spiralling down the toilet of self-indulgence. Our current column (see link) features what I found to be a very entertaining rant against issue #59, but I think my favorite evisceration of the Jones run came when a different AICN reviewer reviewed issue #52 some months back. Went a little something like this (warning: swears ahead!):

/////////////////////////////

INCREDIBLE HULK #52

Written by Bruce Jones

Art by Mike Deodato Jr.

Published by Marvel Comics

A Jon Quixote Review

YOU WOULDN’T LIKE ME WHEN I’M ANGRY

Let’s get this out of the way. I am sad to write this review. I thought the “new” direction for the Hulk was a great idea. To incorporate elements of the beloved television show and to use a Bruce-the-Shark approach to depicting the Hulk were excellent ideas. Even if they weren’t, this is not about premise.

This is about execution. And The Incredible Hulk is now a God-awful comic book. It is irritating and inane and incompetent and at least a half dozen other I-words, the best being inexcusable. About as inexcusable as I can imagine a professional comic book being.

Let’s review:

THE CLIFFHANGER

The last issue ended on a cliffhanger. The Hulk confronting the woman who had just drugged and betrayed his alter ego. The payoff: zero. The Hulk grabs her, sniffs her and the next thing you know he’s back as Bruce Banner, dozing outside. What the hell? Was there some random Hulk quota that I wasn’t aware about? A memo from Quesada? “Jesus, Jones, the fans are pretty pissed over that double-sized issue we dinged them for where half the pages were devoted to showing the bad guys walking to the other bad guy. Throw the green guy in for a couple panels, wouldja?”

It’s a false cliffhanger, more wasted pages for what is already the most horribly paced comic in the Marvel stable. An arbitrary occurrence that had nothing to do with the plot, and was designed to do nothing but dupe the audience into buying the next issue.

That’s irritating.

THE CONSPIRACY

Here’s a story that just came off a conspiracy so thick that it required an entire issue of a bad guy explaining what had been happening for the past year. Of course, it still didn’t resolve anything, so the conspiracy continues.

I don’t know who anybody here is. I don’t know the motivation for their actions or what side anybody’s on. Where they come from? What they’re doing? What their fucking names are? That’s okay for a while, as long as information is flowing forth, questions are being answered, and the secrets are there for a reason. But more and more “mystery” is being piled on this already convoluted premise, and new faces are showing up for what seems to be the sole purpose of adding to the aura of confusion. It’s like I’m in TV Hell and all the channels are showing the final episode of X-Files.

And the manner in which this “conspiracy” is progressing? Faceless black-op non-personalities wandering through a town, walking into establishments where the employees just happen to be other faceless black-op non-personalities whose only characterization seems to be a preternatural ability to choose their cover identities (don’t worry 99, once the Kaos agent kills all these people, he’ll walk right the bar where you’ll be working as a waitress.).

That’s inane.

THE PROTAGONIST

Hey, remember when Bruce Banner actually used to be smarter than the Hulk? When it would take more than a piece of ass for him to not see through a woman who walks into the shower to GIVE HIM A PILL? C’mon, Jones! You’re imaginative enough to create an entire town where half the residents seem to be secret agents operating in deep cover and you can’t come up with a way to drug Banner without turning him into a complete, utter retard? And then have him tell all his secrets to this girl he just met, when he woke up outside, dazed, after she fed him a pill? Doesn’t he read Daredevil?

Even if, in the future, Jones comes up with a magical explanation for Bruce’s sudden bout of moronitis, it’s too late. To turn a long-standing character like Bruce Banner, a character who for over 40 years has been defined by his intelligence and level-headedness, into such a complete idiot for this long, a switch like that would come across as contrived and hollow. No, what Jones is doing is having his characters act dumb – and not just dumb, but out-of-character dumb – simply because it’s the easiest way for him to advance his poorly thought-out plot. It’s the telltale sign of a hack – it shows up in movies all the time, where characters are too stupid to go to the police or tell the truth simply because it would wrap up the story too quickly.

That’s incompetent.

THE STORY

Banner, our main character, starts the issue drugged. He ends the issue drugged. In 22 pages the only thing he actually does is wake up and provide some exposition (although pity the poor sod who walks into the middle of this ‘arc’).

Those ads that hyped the Return of the Abomination? He’s still in his cell, waiting, doing nothing. The femme fatale Nadia? She’s still somewhat reluctantly carrying on her mission, whatever that may be.

No, the action in the story is carried out by one of those faceless non-characters. This non-character started the issue with a computer disk. He fights another non-character, kills him, and at the end of the comic, still has the disk. In between, we learn that the disk contains footage of a face transplant.

So Bruce is still stuck in the status quo established in the last issue. The Abomination hasn’t done anything. Nadia hasn’t done anything. And the MacGuffin is still in the hands of the person who had it at the beginning of the story. In 22 pages, all we really learn is that someone had a face transplant. Oh and that the identity of Mr. Blue might be revealed in the next issue (but don’t hold your breath – we’ve just established Mr. Jones’s track record on cliffhangers). So other than a tiny tidbit of information that really doesn’t mean much to us yet, we’ve just experienced 22 pages of treading water.

That’s inexcusable.

Shame on Bruce Jones for pulling this shit. Shame on him for picking our pockets like this. Shame on Marvel for letting him get away with it. And shame on anybody who recognizes this shit for what it is and still buys the next issue. If anyone thinks I’m going to stick around…

That’s fucking insane.

I liked the art.

/////////////////////////////

Harsh review, but pretty on-target I think.

Incidentally, our latest column features a review of FALLEN ANGEL #2 (see link). We're not always evil. Just sometimes.

-Cormorant

I have liked the Jones run on the Hulk, even though I haven't purchased an issue. I mostly collect DCs, and because of the prices these days, I like to test things out before I read them. So once in a while, I go to the local Borders and plunk down in a couch with a few bound collections. Well I read the first few Hulks and found that in that format, they were pretty darn good, but I realized that having to read that same material over a 6 month period would be glacial. I think I also read about 16 issues in a little less than an hour and figured that buying the monthly book just wasn't worth my while.

After PAD left the title, the Hulk only became readable again after Jones took over.

That's reason enough to think it's hot snot.

It was at first, anyway. I don't read it anymore...which nothing to do with the perceived quality of the book. I can only spend so much on comics every month, after all.

Instead of a 4 page post, I'll sum it up succinctly:

Jones' HULK is truer to the spirit of what the Hulk is supposed to be.

I enjoyed most of PAD's HULK run (personally, I wish you would've left a bit earlier, with momentum) but I had many many friends who HATED it because they could never get into Hulk as a pseudo-comedy book nor wrap their brain around the smart-Hulk concept.

Jones' has stripped the title down to its basics and built it up from there. It is thus truer in spirit than other incarnations.

And yeah, the pacing is slow..but that's EVERY Marvel comic nowadays. Everybody knows Jemas told the writers he wanted long arcs so he could publish tpb's. I actually like it..instead of 15 minutes and 1/4 of a story once a month, I get a complete story in a nice collated book and only have to go to the comic shop once every 2-3 months.

Best--Chris

Jones truer to the spirit of the Hulk than PAD?

PAD's Hulk was all about a man who was actually struggling with the monster within.

When PAD took over, Banner and the Hulk were constantly at odds. There's a very good scene where Bruce was trying to rescue Betty only to have night fall and trigger his transformation into the Hulk. Bruce laments, "If [the Hulk is] the hero, who am I?" There was conflict.

When the Hulk took the identity of Mr. Fixit, Banner's return threatened the Hulk's new life. A role reversal. Remember when Banner saw what the Hulk had written on the mirror: "Screw this up and I'll kill you." Banner's reaction: "That was your first mistake. You let me know how much this means to you." Conflict between the two.

Even with his merged Hulk, PAD established early on--the first issue, in fact--that all was not as well as it seemed. Shortly after his first appearance, the merged Hulk was prophesied to become insane so you knew things were going to go downhill. He lost control and fell into his old "Hulk Smash" persona, supposedly killing the Leader and (unknowingly) the zombified General Ross. Because of that and his recent meeting with the Maestro, his mind created a failsafe so that when he lost control again he reverted to human form in which he could do little harm. Conflict.

Yes, there were jokes throughout PAD's run. But there was conflict and plot progression. And--as horrible word as this appears to be at Marvel these days--continuity. Characters acted in-character.

Jones' Hulk does not have any obvious conflict. Sure, Banner says he fears losing control... but has he shown it? He seems to have the Hulk fully in control. He transforms when he wants to and is even able to use a (seemingly large) portion of the Hulk's strength while in human form.

Banner is horribly out-of-character. He sleeps with Nadia b/c she took off her clothes? So much for the dead wife, huh? He's not the least suspicious of a woman walking into the shower and giving him vitamins??

The Hulk is horribly out-of-character. A woman slaps him so he turns back into Banner? Wait... I thought the Hulk was a creature of rage? Isn't Jones supposed to be "truer to the spirit of the Hulk?"

Don't get me started on the Absorbing Man and Abomination. Ditto for the blatant continuity blunders.

Heh! What the hell is wrong with you people???

Nadia is an uber-hot blonde and Banner's a Bookworm-geekish shy guy. Hello!! He hadn't been laid in how long???

Perhaps some people aren't led around by hormones.

Nadia is the wife of Emil Blonsky. Bruce Banner has met Nadia so he would know that. He also arranged to have footage of Emil and Nadia's farewell played endlessly as torture for the Abomination.

So even if you subscribe to the idea of Banner sleeping with a woman on the night they meet--uh-huh, that's in character--how do you explain not recognizing Nadia?

Oh and wait... Bruce Banner is a "bookworm-geekish shy guy" who had a girlfriend remark that he would hardly even touch her after they'd been dating for months...

I find HULK a tense, drawn out thriller. It's pace appeals to me. I'm reading it in trades, which might help. but I've found it a gripping drama.

I don't mind if the Hulk's not on panel.

I think that you should look at the Hulk popularity issue in this way PAD:

Inertia...

Many of the Marvel and DC books come with a built in audience and this group of comic geeks (myself included)will stay with a book thru thick and thin (both the good and bad story arcs.) I love your work but there was a slow time with the Joe Fixit story arc but I held on for the long haul.

I don't believe with all the hype around the HULK movie and video game that even a bad run of Hulk comics is going to kill this franchise.

Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

Regards:

Warren S. Jones III

PAD I think you raise a great question when you ponder the type of readership that is supporting Jones' Hulk.

Who are they? Jones' fans, twenty-somethings, thirty or forty-somethings? Who?

Has storytelling style changes so much that dragging out a story has become the norm?

You could argue thatClaremont (X-men) more or less started it but (usually with secondary storylines) but since then it's the main story that gets dragged on, and on and on.

Why is PAD not forgiven and other storytellers are? Could it be the character? Hulk did have a TV series that (storytelling-wise) focused more on Banner than Hulk.

Or as they said back then "another rip off of the Fugitive fomula"

People (comic book readers) may be more 'accepting' of this 'version'. Still doesn't excuse the dragging of story lines.

Supergirl? Just a forgettable movie. No 'psychological' cushion to rest on there.

I don't have any easy answers. Anyone?

It isn't just you, chief. The sad thing is, I'm guilty of reading the book despite the fact that I hate the story directions, the misuse of characters, and the distinct lack of Big Green. I hang on because I love Jones's dialogue, which can be both fascinating and, at times, a laugh riot even while the story itself is deteriorating into nonsense. Of course, now I can get that in KINGPIN without seeing him muck up the Hulk....and the second Mike Deodato leaves TIH again (LOVE that man's work), I'm gone.

A thought to ponder: You, Peter, like Bruce Jones's work on Ka-Zar, a lesser-known character without a lot of established continuity beyond his origin. I enjoy his KINGPIN series, where he deals with a portion of Wilson Fisk's life that has had very little light shed upon it up until now. Maybe the problem is that Bruce Jones has a problem with "coloring inside the lines" of established continuity, and works best as far outside of it as possible?

Keep writing and I'll keep reading,

Chuck Williams

I've been a Hulk fan for years, but Bruce Jones has done what no other writer has ever been able to do... bored me to tears. I kept giving Jones the benefit of the doubt, thinking the book's conspiracy would pay off big and be a HUGE surprise. Here's the surprise, I don't care any more.

I got two issues into this completely out-of-character Absorbing Man story and on the third issue, finally told my comic book store enough. Don't pull it for me any more.

The Hulk, like every other Marvel comic is suffering from the same thing, they're not connected. For some reason, Jemas and Quesada issued a mandate or something that every book is in it's own universe. And I'm not talking about things like the Ultimate Universe. I mean in the mainstream. There is nothing connecting any of the characters any more. They're all in their own little shoe boxes. Events in one book no longer have ANY kind of impact at all. Heck, except for team books like the Avengers, no other character is even mentioned.

Marvel has gone so movie happy that they want each comic to remain separate in their own little franchise, terrified that if they remained true to the characters, they'll lose the movies. But aren't the characters what got them the movies? Basically they're killing thier own franchises.

I appologize for the rant, which I readily admit should be directed at the people I blame for the creative slump Marvel Comics is in, but I needed to get this off my chest.

I really have a new distate for the Hulk. I think they just need to rename the series Bruce Banner: Agent of Sheild... that way it's not confusing at all and every five issues you can proclaim on the cover "guest starring Hulk!"

And on top of that, I don't think the Hulk has been this least increadible in his 40 years of existance. I mean has he done anything of signaficance he the whole of Bruce Jones run, besides beat up a few bad guys and save Banner's butt.

I miss the Hulk. But at least Banner isn't changing jobs every few issues? You know... "got to find a cure... oh look I can get a job at a seedy casino or an oil rig or at a football stadium. Surely I won't get angry working as a jaintor."

OK... one person said that Banner, following the tradition of the Everyman, has little overt character development, which in effect means that Banner's has developed into an Everyman and will thus develop no further. Several chimed into say they think Jones' run reads better in trades. Rich Johnston says the pace appeals to him, but doesn't address the glaring lack of characterization...

Not to be too rude, but is this really the best Jones' defenders can come up with? Well, if you read it *this* way, then the glaring lack of characterization and glacial pacing aren't quite so noticeable? Egad.

Best,

Deron

I'm buying the book in trades. Reads better that way. My wife loves it. The new regimen at Marvel tends to ignore everything that came before them, the Hulk coffe table book is evidence of this. I am not surprised at the new characterization of Absorbing Man

Honestly, I liked your Aquaman and Spider-Man more than Hulk. I loved a few single issue stories like the Crazy 8 story and the one where MR Fixit slaps the Punisher (someone show Ennis that issue). I really liked the gray Hulk in Vegas but didn't care for the Pantheon and ohers storylines. You write good superhero stuff but Jones is doing something that is not superheroish. Also, I think rationning the Hulk makes the impact of his appereances bigger.

I am biased. I stopped reading the Hulk after that David guy let. I'm just waiting for his next book of Star Trek: New Frontier.

I was only jokingly questioning what's wrong with Banner gettin' some lovin'. Of course it is completely out of character for Bruce Banner, but as this so-called "everyman" charcter it fits.

How many guys are going to turn down a hot, blonde Russian dancer (yikes!) who strips down naked right in front of them???

Can't we just be glad Banner's finally gettin' some? :) IT's about the only ACTION going on in Jone's run.

I stopped following a book for characters or artists a long time ago - I'm primarily a follower of writers. I'll usually give a new writer on a book 3-6 issues to hook me. So, I used to enjoy Bill Mantlo's run on Hulk - not fantastic work but I thought it was fun. Thought Byrne's first Hulk run was pretty good - the physical separation of Bruce from the Hulk was a pretty cool idea to me. Was thoroughly hooked on PAD's run - through every iteration Hulk/Bruce went through, I loved it all. Didn't care for Jenkins' run and dropped it after probably the second issue. Same with Byrne's second run - just didn't click with me. Read the first tpb of Jones' run (I missed the first couple of issues, so I waited for the trade) and was completely and utterly bored to tears. It was so boring, I can't tell you what it was about - not a good sign when the only thing I can remember about a trade is that I kept falling asleep.

So basically, PAD has ruined the Hulk for me - he set the bar too fricking high and, for me at least, nobody has come even remotely close to nailing it.

When I said Jones' HULK is the most "true in spirit," I meant because he has finally nailed the two most important facets of the character: Making Bruce Banner important and making Hulk-outs count for something.

No offense to PAD, as I said I enjoyed much of his run, but it wasn't the Hulk. He wrote Bruce Banner completely out of the series (and Hulk for that matter)! His was a unique take, much like an Ultimates take, but it wasn't very true in spirit.

As for the lack of Hulk appearances. I just read this month's Ultimate Spider-Man and the whole issue was Aunt May talking about her feelings. No battles, almost no Spidey. And I enjoyed it. I'm past the age that I want to see people in goofy underwear beating up other guys in goofy underwear for 22 pages.

In other words, Joe Q had a good commentary on this about 6 months back. Basically, he said Marvel isn't worried about these 10-year olds everybody claims "should be marketed toward" and is instead concentrating on his adult audience. So basically, if your still of the mentality that you want to see super-powered folk smashing sh*t up for 22 pages, perhaps a Marvel comic isn't for you.

As for characterization, I see plenty. The fact that Bruce is even in the comic (when he wasn't for so many years, don't give me PAD's Hulk, he was basically Donald Duck, a funny animal book) makes the series more compelling. And, look, I've read comics for 20 years but I can't tell you every Abomination issue. I'm not going to go and research it. I don't care how he acted back in 1982. If the story is good now, that's all I care about.

As for the pacing, again, Marvel has a new philosophy. I read Ultimate books, Daredevil, ASM, SSM, Hulk, Cap and Punisher. None of them are paced fast. I actually have a subscrip to ASM (I got caught up in movie-mania) and I blow through each ish in 10 minutes. I learned my lesson on the others and buy tpbs. Point is, Marvel isn't written to be read monthly any more and so complaining about it is like complaining about commercials on broadcast tv. Its how it is, either live with it or find something else to spend time on.

Best--Chris

He has not made Bruce Banner important. He has made Bruce Banner two-dimensional. He's also reduced Banner's IQ a few hundred points and seems to have made him an amnesiac.

Plus it's only been a few years back (our time) that the Hulk was accused of killing a few hundred people aboard a passenger plane... but this one kid's death is supposed to affect the nation's opinion of Banner and make him an outcast? What was he before?

The Hulk-outs count for nothing. Look at #52-- there was no point to that. The Hulk appears--finally--and then promptly transforms back to Banner when slapped.

Point: Non-existent.

PAD wrote Banner out of the series? Then who was that who kept transforming every night up until IH #377--and who or what was he transforming into? Whose personalities were struggling for control during the Pantheon storyline? Physically, Banner may not have appeared often between IH #377 and #460... but he was there in spirit for most of it.

Many writers of the comic have had Bruce Banner in control of the Hulk at least for a short time. Mantlo had him in control for a couple of years. PAD had him struggling for control--losing the battle a few times--for about five.

Your Ultimate Spider-Man reference is not a good one. Take that same Ultimate Spider-Man and have it drag for five months with Spider-Man only making a notable appearance in the fifth month. Rinse, repeat. Then tell me that you enjoyed it.

Would it be worth the $20+ that you spent on it?

I don't want to see super-powered folks smashing things for 22 pages month after month. I want characters written IN CHARACTER with a good plot and story month after month. This is something Jones has not shown he can do with the Hulk.

If you've read the book for twenty years and call PAD's Hulk a "funny animal" book then I'd suggest re-reading.

As for continuity, I'm not asking Jones to go back to the early hundreds to see how the Abomination acted in those days. I'm asking that he check on the details of events he references.

You know, "minor" details like the fact the Abomination was NOT present when Betty died and did NOT look into her eyes and see her fear as Jones had him claim.

The pacing is beyond slow. It's not there. All we've done is tread water. Same thing that was established two years ago is still the status quo now. The only changes that have been made is castrating Emil Blonsky and making the Absorbing Man unrecognizable.

Change isn't always good.

Well-said, Jonathan.

I don't read "Hulk" but I *am* confused about why Wizard #144 refers to the current Fantastic Four storyline as if it was great when I think it is painfully horrible (I've even written angry e-mails to Marvel to try and calm down over how the book's been butchered). . .Everyone I talk to agrees that the book sucks now (though with an investment of about 300 back issues I'm not going to stop buying FF) and yet Wizard announces its greatness. Sorry for the sort of off topic rant. :)

Can one really use the term "popular" with a publication that circulates less than 100K?

Hulk was at 55Kish a couple months ago and is at 75Kish now, around a 40% increase.

But that is only 20K more copies.

That is an average of 400 copies per state. Maybe one or two more sold per store.

If only one in 1000 Hulk movie viewers grabbed an issue out of curiosity, you could produce this surge.

Comicbooks are really in the "Creative Anachronism" space and are no longer a part of popular culture. The comicbook reader market is SO small that any nudge from the popular sector (the Hulk Movie) can cause massive swings that completely overwelm the numbers of the core market.

I believe these readers will return to (or maintain) their status as non-comicbook readers as soon as the story arc is over.

"In other words, Joe Q had a good commentary on this about 6 months back. Basically, he said Marvel isn't worried about these 10-year olds everybody claims "should be marketed toward" and is instead concentrating on his adult audience."

The problem is that when you get that 10 year old, you get him (or her) in a way that you simply can't get a 20 or 30 year old. The adult audience that Quesada talks about is overwhelming made up of adults who actually started reading comics as kids. When we drift away as every generation of readers eventually does, the next generation of adults WILL NOT HAVE READ COMICS AS KIDS. Good luck trying to get them to start.

Mike

"When I said Jones' HULK is the most "true in spirit," I meant because he has finally nailed the two most important facets of the character: Making Bruce Banner important and making Hulk-outs count for something."

I completely disagree that these are the most important facets of the character. To me PADs Future Imperfect went to the heart of the character better than any other story written about the character. It depicted the ultimate nightmare that the Hulk had always promised come to life. Not that pure and noble Bruce would turn into the Hulk and smash some stuff, mybe inadvertantly killing a small boy, but that the evil, the lust for power, strength, domination of the Hulk would seduce a Bruce Banner who had grown tired of trying to fight it and the world. Jekyll and Hyde had merged and Jekyll had decided Hyde wasn't such a bad fella after all. It is so much more powerful a concept than the insipid TV derived direction that Jones has put forth.

"No offense to PAD, as I said I enjoyed much of his run, but it wasn't the Hulk. He wrote Bruce Banner completely out of the series (and Hulk for that matter)!"

Quite sincerely what are you talking about here? The merged Hulk? Bruce changed, the Hulk changed, they both evolved. If being completely identical to previous versions of the character is what you value how can you say that Jones intermittently mute Hulk and vacant Banner are any more valid than PADs take that "wasn't the Hulk."

"His was a unique take, much like an Ultimates take, but it wasn't very true in spirit.

As for the lack of Hulk appearances. I just read this month's Ultimate Spider-Man and the whole issue was Aunt May talking about her feelings. No battles, almost no Spidey. And I enjoyed it."

Good for you. I enjoy The Ultimates and Ultimate Xmen and they are hardly all-out every issue slugfests. However stuff does happen, characters are developed (and not just peripheral characters whose lives Bruce changes as he passes through them every arc a la TV series such as Kung Fu, The Fugitive, Quantum Leap, Touched By an Angel and last but not least The Incredible Hulk TV show) and it is interesting. Would you have enjoyed the issue as much if it had spent half the time focussing on cool faceless guys in black suits and sunglasses called S567 shooting one another

and trying to get a sample of Spidemans blood?

"I'm past the age that I want to see people in goofy underwear beating up other guys in goofy underwear for 22 pages."

Once again I am happy for you. Have never experienced such strange desires myself. But it is nice of you to implicitly characterise all those who dislike Jones Hulk run as morons who want to see some kind of homoerotic, semi-naked boxing match every issue.

"In other words, Joe Q had a good commentary on this about 6 months back. Basically, he said Marvel isn't worried about these 10-year olds everybody claims "should be marketed toward" and is instead concentrating on his adult audience. So basically, if your still of the mentality that you want to see super-powered folk smashing sh*t up for 22 pages, perhaps a Marvel comic isn't for you."

Again this attempt to deflect valid criticisms of the quality of writing by building up a straw man with a frontal lobotomy and a penchant for pictures of sh*t blowing up as your opponent is both patronising and ultimately does nothing for your argument.

"As for characterization, I see plenty. The fact that Bruce is even in the comic (when he wasn't for so many years, don't give me PAD's Hulk, he was basically Donald Duck, a funny animal book) makes the series more compelling."

PAD's Hulk was basically Donald Duck?! Sweet Jesus what the f*ck does that mean? If you are of the mentality that you cannot appreciate nor understand the subtelties that were present in many aspects of his Hulk run perhaps a PAD comic isn't for you.

hh

"And, look, I've read comics for 20 years but I can't tell you every Abomination issue. I'm not going to go and research it. I don't care how he acted back in 1982. If the story is good now, that's all I care about.

As for the pacing, again, Marvel has a new philosophy. I read Ultimate books, Daredevil, ASM, SSM, Hulk, Cap and Punisher. None of them are paced fast. I actually have a subscrip to ASM (I got caught up in movie-mania) and I blow through each ish in 10 minutes. I learned my lesson on the others and buy tpbs. Point is, Marvel isn't written to be read monthly any more and so complaining about it is like complaining about commercials on broadcast tv. Its how it is, either live with it or find something else to spend time on.

Best--Chris"

Chris said:

No offense to PAD, as I said I enjoyed much of his run, but it wasn't the Hulk. He wrote Bruce Banner completely out of the series (and Hulk for that matter)! His was a unique take, much like an Ultimates take, but it wasn't very true in spirit.>>

I didn't care much for the merged Hulk storyline in retrospect but the Gray Hulk era was brilliant and very little since has touched it. And even the merged Hulk storyline had decent pacing and complete stories.

<>

Then maybe you shouldn't read superhero comics. I mean, why bother with a genre that doesn't appeal to you? Why try to turn ice cream into spinach or vice versa? There are even other options in your comic book store if you want to read talking heads.

I like superhero comics. It appeals to the kid in me (there's also the larger than life, mythological element). If I want something different, though, I read Wuthering Heights or Anna Karenina. I find that the people who want to turn superhero comics into "something more mature" only read superhero comics. They want it to be everything in the world to them.

<>

That's idiotic. You lose the younger fans, you're not going to have an adult audience in ten years. I'm honestly curious as to what he expects the readership to look like in the next decade. I already know fans around my age who have gotten married and have kids and because of that responsibility don't spend as much on comics. So your audience ages, has other priorities... looks like your company is SOL.

<>

Uhm, that's who a Marvel Comic should be for. It's not Proust. It's not Nietzsche. If you want to read about an old lady talking about her feelings, read Virginia Woolf.

<>

"Bruce" is not in the comic. PAD gave us more characterization with Bruce Banner in Hulk #372, for example, than most writers since have done. PAD really invested a great deal of emotion and depth into Bruce Banner. A funny animal book? That's not even a valid argument. Yes, there was humor in the title. Sometimes it was superfluous, but Bruce's reaction to discovering that Betty had lost her child ("Probably for the best... would have been a freak like his dad") was heartbreaking and is not what you find in a "funny animal book."

<>

No, it's like complaining that a weekly TV series isn't written to be watched weekly and that it's geared for the DVD box set. Remember how fans reacted to the last season of Buffy? Yes, I enjoy watching Buffy's first three seasons on DVD, but when they originally aired, each episode had a beginning, middle, and end. That's pacing.

While I enjoyed the first eyar or so of Jones's run, I agree with the critics of the Absorbing Man storyline. I am all for making the guy more powerful, and experimenting with his powers, but when did he become so intelligent? He's like Hannibal Lecter all of a sudden. And five issues to tell this story?!?! It needed 3 at the most. It seemed like the dreaded "F" word: filler. That being said, the whole conspiracy storyline is cool, but slow paced. I think if you stagger the Hulk's appearances, it makes them special. This is waht I enjoyed about the old TV show. And a book of just Hulk smashing for 22 pages would get old fast. Focusing more on Banner allows for a wider range of intelligent stories, instead of Hulk just getting into a situation he doesn't understand and smashing his way out. The problem is, Jones takes this too far, with the Hulk hardly ever appearing. But if you can get past the lack of Hulk, the story is a deep, solid, mystery, albeit slightly drawn out.

PD, it's simple. Jones' run on the title is the first time it's been any damn GOOD since you quit!

I'm not going to argue about the current HULK any more because it's pointless. I'm not here to convince you to like Jones' Hulk and you're not going to convince me not to like it. PAD posted a question and I simply tried to answer it.

What I do want to respond to are these people posting the same, tired, whiny, false belief that "people grow out of comics so if you don't appeal to kids, you will not have any fans in 10 years."

Here's an idea...*GASP* appeal to adult!! Then you don't have to worry about turning over your fanbase every 10 years.

Comics in Japan sell like Sports Illustrated or People sells here. Everybody from kids to 45 year olds read them. Why? Because they are written for adults as well as kids.

The reason people "grow out" of comics is

I'm not going to argue about the current HULK any more because it's pointless. I'm not here to convince you to like Jones' Hulk and you're not going to convince me not to like it. PAD posted a question and I simply tried to answer it.

What I do want to respond to are these people posting the same, tired, whiny, false belief that "people grow out of comics so if you don't appeal to kids, you will not have any fans in 10 years."

Here's an idea...*GASP* appeal to adult!! Then you don't have to worry about turning over your fanbase every 10 years.

Comics in Japan sell like Sports Illustrated or People sells here. Everybody from kids to 45 year olds read them. Why? Because they are written for adults as well as kids.

The reason people "grow out" of comics is because, until now, they were targeted to 10 year olds. Eventually, say about 30, a person will go "Gee, this is written for a 10 year old. I'm insulted. I'm done with comics."

Now, instead let's look at Joe Q's plan. Instead of losing that fan because you are marketing toward a child mentality...you write for him. You keep that fan who started reading 10 years ago and he stays a Marvelite well until his 40's. Gee, that sounds pretty smart, don't it?

I don't know how old my fellow posters are but to those of you posting you don't want to see issues with characters talking about feelings and expect super hero books to be about jakked up costume-wearers beating the holy hell out other--well, if you are above 21 years of age, I am embarrassed for you. It is people like you who we have to blame for the fact every Hollywood movie is a shallow piece of "blow it up, smash it" garbage. I hope your ilk doesn't ruin comics as well.

Best--Chris

I'm not going to argue about the current HULK any more because it's pointless. I'm not here to convince you to like Jones' Hulk and you're not going to convince me not to like it. PAD posted a question and I simply tried to answer it.

What I do want to respond to are these people posting the same, tired, whiny, false belief that "people grow out of comics so if you don't appeal to kids, you will not have any fans in 10 years."

Here's an idea...*GASP* appeal to adult!! Then you don't have to worry about turning over your fanbase every 10 years.

Comics in Japan sell like Sports Illustrated or People sells here. Everybody from kids to 45 year olds read them. Why? Because they are written for adults as well as kids.

The reason people "grow out" of comics is because, until now, they were targeted to 10 year olds. Eventually, say about 30, a person will go "Gee, this is written for a 10 year old. I'm insulted. I'm done with comics."

Now, instead let's look at Joe Q's plan. Instead of losing that fan because you are marketing toward a child mentality...you write for him. You keep that fan who started reading 10 years ago and he stays a Marvelite well until his 40's. Gee, that sounds pretty smart, don't it?

I don't know how old my fellow posters are but to those of you posting you don't want to see issues with characters talking about feelings and expect super hero books to be about jakked up costume-wearers beating the holy hell out other--well, if you are above 21 years of age, I am embarrassed for you. It is people like you who we have to blame for the fact every Hollywood movie is a shallow piece of "blow it up, smash it" garbage. I hope your ilk doesn't ruin comics as well.

Best--Chris

There's a time and a place for everything, Chris. I'm in my late 20's and I still get a visceral thrill from a decent superhero punch up or well choreographed action sequence. That doesn't in any way mean that I don't equally love the intricacies of an ABC or Vertigo book as well. But there needs to be variety in the stuff I read. I like being able to kick back with a stack of comics, read a grim & gritty Bendis followed by a bright & shiney Johns, followed in turn by a David, or a Rucka, etc. I have no particular affection for any genre or type of story, other than it be a good read that keeps me entertained.

Superhero comics are not necessarily garbage, as you are inferring Chris. And people who like them are not, by default, child like simpletons.

Personally, I resent that implication, and I find it sad that you obviously cannot appreciate the need for variety of the comics medium. If you could, you wouldn't be making the comments you have. Nothing is going to be gained by doing away with the superhero comic. Nothing.

People who like being entertained by the latest Hollywood action movie are just as valuable an audience as those people who only like art house flicks. Catering to one and not the other is just plain wrong. That's what Marvel, increasingly, are doing. And that's what you are supporting.

Chris, unlike you I don't feel the need to insult or denigrate people simply because they have different tastes than I do, but I must point out that anyone who would make a comment like this...

"Now, instead let's look at Joe Q's plan. Instead of losing that fan because you are marketing toward a child mentality...you write for him. You keep that fan who started reading 10 years ago and he stays a Marvelite well until his 40's. Gee, that sounds pretty smart, don't it?"

...is someone who doesn't know a damn thing about economics or how a business works and sounds like someone who's never even held a job.

Mike

I'd just like to be shown where someone in this thread has said he/she "expects super hero books to be about jakked up costume-wearers beating the holy hell out other," as Chris keeps claiming is being said.

I admit I haven't read every single word on the page so maybe I missed it...

italics off? ;)

I think that there's confusion at the moment about what comics "should" be. I mean, when a writer writes a book they hopefully aren't contemplating, "hmmm...what market segment should I be appealing to?" Instead, I hope they're just out to write the best story they can. Do comics at the moment fit into that idea? Or are they becoming like sitcoms where someone dreams up a concept and the goal isn't to tell a story but to sell advertising at capture the key audiences at the key times. My opinion on why manga is so successful in Japan is that a series tells a story and then the creator moves on to something else. Here in the US we have 100s of comics about the X-men and 75% are just filler issues. Also, just because someone is a fan when they're a kid doesn't mean they'll be a consistent one throughout their life. I'm 20 now, I've been collecting comics since I was about 9 (right before the "Fatal Attractions" storyline in X-men). . .at the time my favorite character was Jubilee. She was a female character I could identify with. But her character has since been totally butchered by Marvel. After she was kidnapped by Bastion I imagined that she'd grow somehow, sort of how Invisible Girl became Invisible Woman after her experience as Malice. . .but no, a few months later and any hardship was forgotten. I can understand that continuity gets messy, I'm not saying they should mire the reader in it. . .HOWEVER, there's something about staying true to a character while letting them grow that is important. Anyway, I don't want to ramble, but my 10 years of collecting haven't been without a large break. In fact, I stopped collecting and just kept up a subscription to Fantastic Four for about 3 years. Then, this summer in summer school I saw that the guy sitting next to me was reading Wizard. I struck up a conversation with him and we got onto the subject of Batman. He told me there was this amazing storyline and offered to lend me his issues. In exchange I lent him older stuff that he'd seen mentioned in Wizard like the dark phoenix saga that had sparked his interest. After being amazed at Batman I went out and bought 608-617 and picked up my first copy of Wizard in years. Then I picked up 1602 #1 (which is so amazing I had to stop at the end of every page just to let the sheer coolness of it sink in). . .and its great to be excited about comics again. Oddly enough, though I had been a dedicated Marvel fan in years previous (having never even considered picking up something from DC, etc.) I am collecting way more from other imprints. So if Marvel is looking for that 10 year old to get into comics and keep in comics, perhaps they should reconsider. Of course, being a female comic fan, I'm in the minority already, but I really do think a great story will bring fans in and keep them. That's just my little rant on the subject. :)

The way I see it, Marvel are just out for the money. Think about it: hulk movie, everyone wants piece of hulk pie, so: massive sales. they couldn't give a flying fuck what is happening to the characters, just as long as they stay on the money ride. Point two: kickass characters like deadpool and agent x, which i personally love. (if you don't then i'm sure you can think of a series you love that has been ignored on TPB) They get no TPB action or hype. Why? because the hulk, x-men and other movies are bringing in customers who, as i have said, just want a piece of the pie. so they make TPBs of the hulk, because these noobs, no offence meant, don't know anything about the PAD, Gail Simone, etc. characters, so what'll they miss? characters can go hang as long as the cash keeps coming! I know it sounds like classic anti-corporate crap, but this is just the way i've pieced it together. you don't have to like it or believe it, but this is how it is. And it sucks big hairy gorilla cock. (you may have noticed that i'm a teensy bit pissed about all this)

To start I'd like to say my boy, Wolfie, is dead on about this shit that Marvel's throwing at us. They can stop it in a second but they don't. This has to mean something...they suck.

PAD's Captain Marvel, Paul Jenkins' Peter Parker: Spider-Man, Christopher J. Priest's Black Panther, Joe Kelly's Deadpool, and Gail Simone's Deadpool/Agent X, in comparison to most other Marvel properties (this doesn't include the Ultimate line, or anything written by Brian Michael Bendis or Kevin Smith) have massive quality and no hype. And whilst all the X-Shit (don't get me wrong, I like Peter Milligan's X-Statix/X-Force and Greg Rucka's Wolverine), the poorly-done Spider-Shit (clones, Bob Harras, and John Byrne, anybody? - stop picking on Howard Mackie) and the Hulk-shit (There has not been a Hulk series since PAD left, but I appreciate Paul Jenkins' trying to stay true to PAD on his run), goes on forever, the good stuff, like Deadpool/Agent X and Captain Marvel (yes I know Fabian Nicieza is doing a Cable/Deadpool ongoing, which is cool cos I like Fabian and Deadpool, but I'm really gunna miss Agent X and his supporting cast, sob), gets cancelled. Just the way things are.

A curse on the Marvel House of Ideas!!!!!

HULK HATE PUNY MARVEL! HULK HATE PUNY JONES! MARVEL WILL PUT NEW WRITER ON HULK, CANCEL HULK, OR REPRINT BOOKS OF DAVID'S HULK... OR HULK WILL SMASH PUNY MARVEL!!!!! HULK IS NOT BULLSHITTING!!!!!

I agree with wolfie, ESPECIALLY about Deadpool. I can't re-read my back issues without laughing because the writing is still fresh. Not only are books ignored for trades, but if they are made into trades they're not what they should be. One example: I saw the new Inferno TPB the other day. . .it must be half the size of the one I have! They cut out a lot of the side stories as if they weren't equally interesting. Marvel doesn't know what it's like to be a fan. I mean, you wait a month between issues and pacing becomes even more important whereas they want to drag stuff out or make it hit a magic issue number. It was like Buffy last season. . .they needed to bring things to the finale and just dragged things out. What would have been really clever is to tell their story and if it didn't reach the finale naturally they could have written more of the aftermath. But back to the remarks about Deadpool and the like, I couldn't agree more.

Hulk likes David. Hulk think David the man (sorry Stan Lee!). David leave, make Hulk cry. Hulk want friend back. Hulk afraid Jones turn him into ballet dancer. HELP HULK! HULK WANT JONES OUT OF SERIES OR STORY FUCK-UP! Hulk also likes funny red man and funny scarface man. Red man and scarface man make Hulk laugh when they shoot puny humans.

My opinion on why manga is so successful in Japan is that a series tells a story and then the creator moves on to something else.

Have you seen how many volumes Dragonball got up to?

Most posters have been dead-on about the last two arcs being weaker than the rest of Jones`run. Wheras once anything would happen with surprises after surprises, great resolves, a months ago, there was a shift with the appearance of the Abomination and now the Absorbing man. It seems that suddenly there was a mandate to be more "super-hero" wich the hiring of a super-hero-oriented artist like Mike Deodato would indicate. Not that Bruce didn`t do a good job with these tales, but it wasn`t classic material like the rest.

Bottom line, they should forget the super-villains with Mr.Jones concentrating himself on what he does best, suspense/mystery and hire Arthur Ranson as regular artist.

The fact that Bruce is even in the comic (when he wasn't for so many years, don't give me PAD's Hulk, he was basically Donald Duck, a funny animal book)

I can't believe this. Certainly the physical form of Banner wasn't there, but if you actually read the book you would have seen more Banner than usual. If you want a "non-Banner" run of the Hulk, go pick up issues 299-313; they should be in the five for a dollar bin at your local store.

As for Bruce sleeping around; I don't see this a a continuity flaw as much as a man who is finally coming to terms with the death of his wife. Yeah, he has a history of being sexually repressed, but certainly he has grown somewhat as a result of his marriage to Betty, who is now dead, so just exactly is he supposed to be saving himself for? I do agree that he should have recognized Nadia, though. Maybe he just didn't get a good enough wiff of her in the past;-)

The pacing is too slow, but that's more the fault of corporate Marvel than Jones. However, the character assassination of Creel is unacceptable. I half expected Creel to cry out "Bruce, I'm your father!" by the end of the arc. I mean, this Absorbing man acted more like Bruce's father than Creel.

As for Mr. Blue, I doubt that those who fear/hope that it's Betty have anything to worry about. If Banner is Mr. Green, then it should follow that Mr. Blue should actually be blue, or wear blue at least some of the time. I'm thinking this means that Mr. Blue is either a Kree, Mystique, or The Tick. Or the little boy Hulk killed. Or Bucky Barnes/Agamenmon.

Speaking of the boy who got killed, is there really a national outcry against the Hulk, or is it just the conspirators conspiring to make it look like one? God, I hate conspiracies. But, what can one do when all the good stories have already been written? I wonder if I'm just reading the book out of some morbid fascination, like when you drive my an accident and you just can't help but look.

dAN

re: Dragonball. . .a perfect example of how bad a property can be when its dragged on and on and on, Japanese or otherwise.

I'll collect the Hulk even if Todd McFarland is writing it. I love the character. That said, like many of the above posters I thought that Jones' Hulk started off fairly strong. It was an intriguing concept, making Bruce a man on the run, and limiting the times you saw the Hulk to give them more impact.

But after awhile, the stories began to make less and less sense. I mean, a good Grant Morrison tale can be stranger than 15 monkeys eating frozen porridge with the three little bears, but at least it usually fits whatever story he's telling. Jones seems to throw weirdness in there and then figures it'll work itself out in the end.

Granted, as the Hulk movie neared, I feared we were back to Bruce Banner, lonely hitchhiker on the road, wandering from town to town into strange adventures everywhere he goes type stories. Formula - Bruce meets new people, new people attack or have hidden secret, Hulk comes out to wreck havok and save the day.

But a super strong Banner? Bruce is best when he's puny and he knows he's puny, but still is one of the top brains on the planet. I don't want Bruce lifting cars over his head!

Marvel needs to bring the widescreen sensibilities of "Startling Stories: Banner" and "The Ultimates" to the Hulk. That's the take I feel is really missing (minus the Ultimate Hulk's horney streak). Hulk IS widescreen, and when you can envision people running in fear because of a Hulk siting, and Hulk battling toe to toe with the Leader (he's not dead, by the way) in Chicago, crashing through the Sears Towers... that'd be good stuff.

But I've rambled on. Let me just finish by saying that I'll pay for Hulk every month, but right now I'm not getting my money's worth.

I'm 29 and haven't followed the Hulk since 1993. Personally, until you get Peter back on the book...who cares. I mean, "Joefixit" for christ sake. The storylines today are just dumb. That says it all.

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