PeterDavid.net

I've seen worse. That thread was tame by comparison.

Darn it Luigi! You beat me while I was actually reading the thread! LOL....

Anyhow, PAD would you mind giving us YOUR synopsis of the story in question? I'm just curious.

Otherwise,yea there is a lot of PAD-bashing(sorry big guy!) but it's pretty tame. I have to say I agree with the people who were like, "You just want this so you can cause a scene with PAD?" I mean,sure I'm holding a semi-grudge against Dan DiDio but at least I want to ask him his side of it before I smack him upside his head.

Here's another thought: PAD writes a story where an irrational fanboy maybe is, maybe isn't molested....

Michael Norton

Amazing how people who have actually read the issue give a pretty fair synopsis of the story and seem to have no problem with it. However, there are others who still act like fools. It is truely amazing.

Heh. Would someone please videotape this guy from CBR taking on PAD? I'd like to see PAD fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Ok, in my opinion, the line crossed over "tame" when the guy stated he wanted to go after PAD for what he did. Are you kidding me? It's fiction, people! I've seen worse creator bashing, but never vague threats. That was unreal.

It's funny because I was thisclose to writing a paper on internet fandom and it's influence on the business of comic book publishing (using the Waid FF incident and U-Decide as examples) but opted to do a paper on hockey GMs instead since it was easier to find a faculty sponsor at my school. This would have been an interesting example indeed. Thanks for the link PAD.

Jeezum Crow, that's some wacky stuff. I liked how the swirling, twirling anger went on for a page and a half of posts before someone offered a semi-understandable synopsis. Then the synopsis didn't change anything anyway (though I did like the complaint that the story didn't offer 'good closure' or something like that. Mmmm, that's good closure!). Then I stopped reading the board and looked at soothing career stats for Roberto Alomar and John Olerud instead.

Cheers, Jon

I took the time to read the thread in question and it didn't seem all that bad. Granted, this "DaDamerican" fella seems like an idiot and your typical kid that wants to act like a bigshot to all of his fellow comic nerds (when actually he's a cowardly worm and won't say a thing if he ever met PAD -- and I really didn't get the sense he was serious with his "plans"). I dunno, I've seen way worse.

Also, there were many posters there taking this idiot to task for his rash judgement of this particular Supergirl story -- so don't let a few bad apples reflect badly on all of comic fandom.

I wonder how he feels about Mary Marvel almost killing Captain Atom.

Da-Whatever there is sure a sorry sack of shit. Getting as insanely worked up over a bloody comic book as he has is a bit over the line.

He's about as bad as Anne Wilkes in "Misery", it seems.

Jesus.

After reading all thirteen (!) (and counting) pages of this, I think it is a good thing that this con they are talking aout isn't going to take place in Las Vegas. Otherwise we'd be reading about plans to spring Montecore the tiger so he could 'do lunch' with PAD that paticular weekend. . . . .

A bit more seriously, what 'creepy high school shower scene that was written by PAD and drawn by Ed Benes' are these guys refering to? This scene description doesn't ring a bell with me, I'm afraid. Then again, I haven't read every last thing PAD's written either, so. . . . . .

Chris

"A bit more seriously, what 'creepy high school shower scene that was written by PAD and drawn by Ed Benes' are these guys refering to? This scene description doesn't ring a bell with me, I'm afraid."

The shower scene they're referring to is from SUPERGIRL #77, page 11. On the CBR boards, "DaAmerican" used to go by the moniker of "Joe Rice"; at the time of this issue's publication, Joe had started a thread denouncing #77 because he decided that ONE PANEL had turned the book into soft-core porn.

In other words, despite the username change, this guy's still an inflammatory nutjob, and a waste of anyone's time. :)

KET

"I'd like to see PAD fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

No, you wouldn't. Is wise old saying: "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Interesting how the schmuck makes all these grand, vague pronouncements about his confrontation with PAD and then, when called on it, falls back to the "I was joking about all that" routine.

Truly the stereotypical fanboy. Sheesh.

JSM

I really really dislike people like those on that message board. If I don't like something in a story I am not going to go off on the person who created it or write a big thing about how I should "attack" the creator of the story. That is just lame and stupid. I have noticed that not one person on that board could give a reason for why they didn't like that issue. I believe that it was Aristole that say that for you to truly know and understand something you have to be able to explain it and articulate it. It is truly sad when it comes down to a few VERY vocal fans that seem to know how things should be and then they bitch and whine when those changes are made. Anyways I got a bit off topic. I just wanted to say that I wish things like this didn't happen.

"I'd like to see PAD fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

We already saw that, back when PAD had that "debate" with a neanderthal named McFarlane.

Anyone know where I can find a transcript of that debate online, BTW? I lost the issue of CBG that reprinted it.

I just read the first two pages, and this guy sounds even more whacked than the infamous ChuckG back in the days of the Young Justice message boards. Considering PAD declared that guy was dead, seeing him rip this person apart would be tons of fun.

Personally, I thought that Supergirl/Mary Marvel story was very well done, and the material was handled in a sensitive manner. I guess other people can't handle any sort of reality intruding on their "funnybooks."

One of the posters said: "Putting Mary Marvel in a "he said/she said" or "Rashoman" situation makes about as much sense as using Ambush Bug to narrate a biography of Gandhi."

Exsqueeze me. Have they read the same Ambush Bug comics I have? The guy who went back to page 12 of his Christmas Special because that was the half that was still funny? The guy who put Darkseid baloon in his book and passed it off as the real thing in order increase sales? A guy who went around writing bios of the truly obscure forgotten DC characters so that Giffen and Fleming couldn't throw a plot at him? In fact, I'd be surprised if a similar joke has already been done with Ol' Buggy. It's been awhile since I read them.

That being said, I thought Mary Marvel was an excellent choice for the story. Not only for the innocence reasons, but it there HAS been a long term affect on Mary Marvel. After all, no matter how much they both want to she and CM3 are still 'just friends'.

Thirdly, the stuff about Supergirl getting lost after issue 12? I disagree completely. Issues 1-9 left me with more questions than answers the first two times I read them. Yes, things did slow down, as far as blowing things up in concerned. The book was not lost. Far from it... by issue 12 or 13 it found itself. Slowdown is essential to serialized fiction. You excelerate the pace, confuse the hell out of the characters (but hopefully not the audience) then you do your climax, you slow things down, let things settle and you start race again once you have all the cars in posistion. The series NEVER failed to go somewhere interesting. Sometimes it took awhile getting there, but as Buzz himself said: "Not straight to hell. They'll be a few detours along the way."

Lastly, the comments about Supergirl being a book for the younger crowd. It was... back in 1985. The problem is too many fans out there see Supergirl and think Superman's cousin with the cute miniskirt, half a dozen boyfriends - one of which is a green alien who becomes negative 985 years old anytime he comes to visit so he's nowhere close to legal- oh yeah, and the god dammned stupid horse. Most of that Supergirl's stories were appropriate for kids.

That however, was not Peter's Supergirl. His Supergirl was a story about love, faith, identity, the meaning/existence of god, morality, the dangers of power, and, of course, flan.

Those old Supergirl stories are okay. The one with Ambush Bug was just a riot.

Peter's Supergirl however got me to do something I don't like doing if I don't have to. It made me think. It made me question what I thought, what I did, why I did the things.

Most importantly, while the book did not make me question my faithlessness, it did help me. It helped me see why some people feel the need to believe. It's something I never understood before.

This is why I rarely post on boards. It's scary out there.

To be honest, I do have that issue, but have almost zero memory of the story. I'll have to dig it up, but I assume that if I don't remember it that well (it was published in 96 or 97 I think) then there was nothing in it that truly offended/shocked me. I will say that I agree with Luigi and Michael Norton that the thread itself seemed pretty non-inflamatory compared to when I was cruising the old GL message board on DC's site (I finally just threw in the towell on ever convincing them that the last ten years of story might have some relevance beyond it not being Hal with the ring), but on the other hand, PAD's site is pretty public and accessible, so this guy could have made his points here during one of PAD's open question threads, right? At any rate I imagine I'll dig out the issue and re-read it just to get the feel (so to speak) of what all this hub-bub could possibly be about...

I honestly don't remember the comic book they're talking about. but a vast majority of my comic book collection is in my parents' home in the USA. (I'm in Italy now preparing to marry my beautiful Italian girlfriend Laura.) This includes many comic books that I have not had a chance to read yet. Anyway, the fellow in the forum seems to be the type to put foil on his head to keep the dogs from talking to him. Don't let folks like this get you down Pete. You're still the greatest in this aspiring comic book writer's opinion.

JHL

Thanks guys!

You know, for the longest time, I wanted nothing more than to become a writer for a Big Two comic book...

And then I saw this thread, and found that no matter how good the work I do is, some people will invariably make their own judgments on my work without reading it, accuse me of things I might or might not have meant inbetween the lines, accuse me of being bipolar and heavily drugged, and compare my work with scenes of cartoon sodomization.

I think I'll stick to warehouse work.

I thought the thread was pretty pointless, but tame. And the guy was obviously kidding around.

I do remember the story and it did "bother" me. As said elsewhere, I agree it seemed Mary was the wrong choice for this for the many reasons stated.

1) Mary is a bit more light-hearted character than this subject matter (IMO, and I understand why for some that would lend strength to that story)

2) Mary has access to the Wisdom of Solomon. This does NOT mean, to me, that she should have been able to "reason it all out" but (again, to me) it lends her TOO much credibility. I believed her over the cop when I think it should have been a harder call.

3)This is arguable, but since Mary has no "bad" streak, it's again hard to believe the cop could think she was shoplifting.

It could be I misunderstood the concept of the story, perhaps wrongly thinking that both Mary's and the Cop's argument should be of equal weight to make Supergirl's call more difficult. It could very well be that PAD intended it to be about Supergirl's stand that she didn't see it, and out of fairness, she couldn't render judgement despite Mary's overwhelming credibility (but if that was the case, Supergirl's a creep for not following it up. The dude would be under a microscope for years to come, if I were her.)

But then, who else could fill the bill? It should be someone powerless in civilian identity so the cop is a real threat, "bad" enough to lend some doubt to her claims, yet innocent enough to lend credibility to her claims. Wonder Girl when she needed the artifacts to be powered? Yeah, okay, she would fit the bill for me better than Mary Marvel.

Despite all that, the story was well crafted and had a lot more depth than the other Plus One stories.

My favorite line from that thread:

"The fictional have their rights as well."

Hell, forget the thread, that sentence alone encapsulates the worst of fan mentality.

And as for those who keep saying "He was joking"-- from what I gather, the individual in question has a history of crossing the line with creators at conventions-- why else would so many people there immediately know what he was getting at? It seems pretty clear to me that at the very least, he was planning to launch a verbal attack at PAD at the con. Over a comic book story. Sheesh.

"And as for those who keep saying "He was joking"-- from what I gather, the individual in question has a history of crossing the line with creators at conventions"

No he doesn't, and yes, he was joking.

Ah, there's nothing like a fan who complains incessantly about something, then uses the "I was only kidding" bit when they're proved wrong. If only people knew that having a right to an opinion doesn't obviate the usefulness of intelligence, research, and accuracy in forming an intelligent opinion.

As for the "threats," I don't know what they had planned. Maybe these folks planned to bring weapons, maybe they planned on bringing anti-PAD signs. At any rate, I'm having flashbacks to Harlan Ellison's "Xenogenesis" where he and other authors recount horror stories from "fans" who felt abusing creators was fine just because they disliked stories. (I'd recommend a little more security around PAD at this con, though.) If you look through the posts on that site, there are lots of folks able to express their dislike of the story without making threats to the writer. It's fine for anyone to hate the story; it's not fine to threaten to "get" the author in person. I hope "DaAmerican" gets tossed out by security; and I'm sure he'll be indignant and threatening a lawsuit the whole way...

No he doesn't, and yes, he was joking.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

I find the notion of 'fictional characters having rights' to be disturbing on an inordinate amount of levels.

I mean we don't even worry that much about the rights of REAL PEOPLE.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

That's because you don't know Joe. He wasn't posting this for anyone but the CBR community, who does know Joe, and who would know that, while he did seriously take issue with the story, was only joking. Clearly the one poster who ran here to "tattle" didn't get it. It's an online personality. Joe is decidedly not a fanboy, and the further bashing of him or the boards is completely unsubstantiated.

I’m sorry PAD, but after reading the 13 plus pages of CBR thread I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the biggest NON-ISSUE that never was! And, at this particular point in time, my grievance lies with the way you handled the situation.

First, you thank Michael Pullman for bringing a petty message board argument to your attention. And I must ask… is it wise? Do you want to be made aware of every internet squabble that throws your name in vain? I thought you were above that (or at the very least, have more profitable things to do, like post the latest TV Round-Up!).

You also claim the Mary Marvel story was “mischaracterize[d] …through hearsay”. And with all due respect, I did not find any evidence of such a thing. No one alleged that the rape happened on panel, some argued that it could’ve, that it might’ve happened, that the whole point was to put Supergirl in a He-said/She-said situation, etc. In the end, and if I’m not mistaken (and I could be), all I saw was a poster start a thread at a message board asking if anybody new which particular Supergirl comic addressed the issue in question (that being the alleged rape of Mary Marvel). Then, through a series of character analyses and dissections, question the suitability of the character to that particular type of story line; while admitting all along that he’d never read the issue but felt he could question the author based on the merits of the character (i.e. who he knows Mary Marvel to be, what her powers are, and how she should be portrayed). The fact that he was looking for the issue in question showed some initiative in trying to get a first person account of the facts even though he felt that he could make a case based on what his friends told him. The key word being ‘friends’. You see, the clever thing about all this is that we trust our friends. They can be wrong, they can be right; but we trust them. I find it ironic that Supergirl would be ambivalent about trusting Mary Marvel, the paradigm of innocence and virtue, a fellow heroine and a fellow female, over a cop just because he happens to be a friend of her father and another symbol of authority, a male one that is (feminist revolt! and/or surrender the cause, we now know that even the fabled Supergirl is subject to the years of indoctrination by Da’Man!) After all was said and done, he abstained from commenting until he read the issue… read the issue, and commented afterwards.

Anyways,

As a long time fan of Mary Marvel, I agree with the CBR posters in that the use of Mary Marvel in such a scenario is unsettling because it robs the character of its innocence, which I think it’s one of its strongest virtues (and not because it tackled the issue of child molestation). And any victim will concur that such an event is very ‘traumatic’ even if nothing ‘really happened’ (as it robs the child of its childhood and trust in parents, men, authoritative figures, sexual partners, etc.)

And as for Supergirl, I don't think that what could’ve been a great character study for Girl of Steel was fully realized within the pages of that particular issue.

Now, on to the “series of threats against the author”.

From reading the thread, I got the sense that the posters knew each other, were joking, and there was a very informal atmosphere to the whole thing. Call it Locker-Room banter or hallway humor, whatever. It all just seemed fairly innocent and very much ‘tongue in cheek’. Really. If you don’t see the jest in claiming ‘fictional characters have rights’ or that they’ll carjack the Flash’s Treadmill, then I guess I can see how trying to make you trip backwards is one of the most egregious of human assaults imaginable. Then again, at your age, it probably is. Shit, I think I argued myself into a corner here. What to do? What to do? I KNOW!!!! BOYCOTT ABC!!!!!!!

Pheww! That was close.

Anyways, I think this is much ado about nothing. Just because I tell some people at a message board I’m going to get Mark Waid at a convention for his lame ‘evil Barry Allen twin’ story (hypothetically speaking), doesn’t mean I’m going to really “GET HIM”. Now, if I actually e-mailed Mark Waid and told him that I was going to get him; then, that would irrevocably constitute a threat. In any case, the acid test for a threat is simple, does the subject feel threatened?

I don’t think you do. Then again maybe you are. Only you can answer that.

That's because you don't know Joe. He wasn't posting this for anyone but the CBR community, who does know Joe, and who would know that, while he did seriously take issue with the story, was only joking.

And if the CBR community forum were a closed, members-only site where outsiders couldn't view posts cold, I'd have no problem.

But it's not. And obviously Joe has forgotten the first rule of the Internet--consider anything you write out there is available for the entire world to view and judge. So a bit of thought before posting is never a bad idea.

Let me put it this way. Had Joe been saying such things about the President as opposed to Peter, would the Secret Service be so forgiving?

JSM

Scott Bland: Anyone know where I can find a transcript of that debate online, BTW? I lost the issue of CBG that reprinted it.

Luigi Novi: CBG printed it? Oh, man, that must've been before I started reading CBG. Yeah, where can I read it?

it's threads like that one that make me almost ashamed to call myself a comic fanboy.

my reaction to the whole thing - ugh. i certainly hope nothing happened.

i remember this story. as with about 80% of most PD stuff i read, i really enjoyed it (as opposed to the other 10% that i just regularly enjoy and the remaining 10% that i don't enjoy). just because a writer doesn't satisfy, doesn't mean he isn't any good. i've posted volumes on why i think a certain well-employed writer with the initials JC writes boring derivative stories. but that's it. no threats to his cat or confronting him at Cons. he's employed writing comics, i'm not. nuff said. besides, as crappy as i think he is, i just picked up something he wrote called Elephantmen (the Origin of Hip Flask) and i think he did a good job. actually i recommend it. shows what i know

i got into a sparkling discussion with Marvel Girl over on the DC Boards when MM revisited Supergirl. this idea (that she perpetuated as well) that a character has to only symbolize one way of being - nicey nicey goodie goodie or evil baddie baddie (i've seen the Eddie Izzard Comedy Special on HBO wayyyyyyyyyyy too many times) - is a bunch of kaka. characters can go through life changing events and still stay true to their core beliefs and actions while evolving as well. using Mary was appropriate, as appropriate as using any noname character. the only thing that matters is that the story is told well.

as for the charactorization, as a non-girl who has never been in a situation like that, i (and most readers) have no reference, but i do know someone who has and to this day she says it was the most unsettling experience in her life. when it happened, she acted emotionally and lost her reason (her words) over just a touch but she still felt violated. and the guy never actually touched her in a way that anyone could do anything about legally. it was the way it happened and the way she perceived it. with that in mind, this story seems very real to me, and very realistically portrayed. so sorry that the ending was not neat and tidy. some stories, like life, don't always work out that way.

>Had Joe been saying such things

>about the President as opposed to

>Peter, would the Secret Service be

>so forgiving?

Of course not, and given the wackos that are out there, folks can't afford to take for granted that posts like that are only joking (I just thought it was creepy as all hell). If the Internet had been around a few years earlier, I bet Mark David Chapman would have been pretty active on the John Lennon boards...

Few laud the words of Peter David as much as I, he is one of the few comic book writers who's books are worth reading not twice but three times. They are that entertaining.

But one does not have to be Sigmund Freud to see that Mr. David is a sick pup, which might be the thing that makes him so great, or at least part of it.

Mr. David relishes turning his heroes into mad killers and satanists. Forcing them into cannabalism or killing them once and bringing them back to kill them once again. He likes dismembering his heroes and finally moved into the realm of having one sexually violated.

We shoulda seen it coming.

Should we attempt to psychoanalyse the mind of a man that takes heroes designed to be paragons but feels he must debase and degrade them? For one must understand he's not merely making unbelievably bland and perfect characters realistic, he's degrading them on purpose for his own sick jollies.

And God Help Us, we're loving it because we are in cahoots. When the cop fondles Mary Marvel, it's what we wanted to do all along.

Well it's what you all wanted to do all along. I'm different.

So dare we peer into the twisted mind of Peter David?

NO.

That would be like staring into the Sun, if the Sun was a sewer full of dead rats and used condoms.

Condoms used in bad ways!

We should not attempt to plum the depths of David's inner self. That way lies madness. Let David go nuts, we'll just get our sick jollies from a safe distance reading his foul funnies and condemning them.

I thank you,

signed,

fanboy in the basement

Hi.

I guess, is this really that big of a deal? A lot of the other thread, and even this thread, kind of comes off like posing. I keep hearing the "Jets and the Sharks" theme, and am wondering when everyone will start walking around snapping fingers and getting ready to rumble.

Anywho, sorry if the posters in the thread held up your expectations of "fanboys" and "internet fandom" etc. etc.., but really, you can't please everyone, everyone on the internet has an opinion (look at this thread for example!) and honestly, if you're upset about someone on another message board making comments on a story because they didn't inform the author ... well, what do you call it when you do the same? Honestly, if you really feel so strongly, why not just go post a message or two to the guy? You could come in with a flamethrower and start a lot of hostility, or you could come in calmly and just say, "Hey, I think you're wrong, what's up with this attack Peter David thing, were you serious?" Maybe it is just easier to flame people when they aren't around, which is why I guess folks on the CBR board flamed Peter David when he wasn't around ... and why a lot of folks here are flaming Joe Rice when he's not around.

Anyway, I haven't read the story, I'm going to read it, but it did make me wonder why you never see a story like this about Robin, or CM3, or any of the other boy characters. I'm also curious about why Mary Marvel's wisdom went out the door at the end of the story (assuming that my friends are right in their assesments). So, isn't that a good thing? Granted, I'll pick it up from a back issue bin, but the discussion about the comic means that, um, y'know, I'm going to buy the comic.

I was a bit shocked at Peter David's reaction, too. I mean, we're all human, nobody likes critics, but yikes, I figured a well-published, well-recieved, well-liked author would have a slightly thicker skin--although, honestly, reading about threats against yourself would probably make anyone's WTF light go off. So that part makes sense--but if it isn't clear that Joe wasn't serious, as one of the folks who wrote in the thread, sorry if that isn't enough and if that isn't clear, but now it is.

As to the rest, hey, I'm quoting myself here, but Any good writer can take any character and craft them into a good story, but whether or not the readers perceive it as a good story is up to them. If everyone had the same tastes, peanuts would be used as industrial grease and vegemite would sweep across North America.

Take it easy.

-f.

"Sorry, I don't buy it. "

Well I know the guy and he not only doesn't have a history of harrassing creators at cons, he'd never in a million years do such a thing, And he really was joking.

"Just joking."

“What’s a matter? Don’t you have a sense of humor?”

The defense of bullies and malicious practical jokers everywhere. It doesn’t excuse the fact DandDamerican was being an ass.

I gave up three pages in. I thought the thread was fairly tame, but the people who constantly complained about the story without having actually read it was pretty silly to me.

I've read it. Honestly, I didn't think it was one of PAD's better stories, mostly because the story required more room than it was given in that issue. At the very least, it required some follow up.

I agree that super-hero comics should generally be accessible to young readers, but for all its themes, there was little in Supergirl that I wouldn't have passed on to one of my young cousins. They might not have understood everything, but aside from some innuendo, Supergirl wasn't that adult. Intelligent, yes; fairly mature, sure; but adult- not at all.

Personally, I'm completely okay with confronting a child molestation issue in a super-hero comic for young readers. It could a valuable tool for younger readers who are in the situation, to let them know that they should not be treated this way and give them some idea of who to go to get out of such a hideous predicament.

For that reason alone, I'm glad PAD ran with the story, even if I personally thought it could've been done slightly better.

Having read the thread, my general opinion of most of the folk in it would be "what a bunch of lame-os". Although I wouldn't particularly call it an example of "Internet fandom", given that these days, at least in the US, pretty much anyone who wants to can access the Internet, causing the average intellect of net users to have regressed to the norm. Pretty much what Peter wrote at the start; it's an example of the worst of fan mentality, although I'd perhaps settle on "some people are just jerks" (Dadamerican struck me as a minor league version of a certain former active rec.arts.comics poster).

Btw, as long as on the topic, Peter, the incident you wrote about in CBG a few weeks back about the fan who came up to you and asked you to sign something you hadn't written? It was at Wondercon; I was the "Internet friend" talking with you when it happened. And yes, for those who read the CBG bit, it was as weird as Peter described it.

Btw, as long as on the topic, Peter, the incident you wrote about in CBG a few weeks back about the fan who came up to you and asked you to sign something you hadn't written? It was at Wondercon; I was the "Internet friend" talking with you when it happened. And yes, for those who read the CBG bit, it was as weird as Peter described it.

I *thought* it was you. I just wasn't 100% sure.

PAD

(Dadamerican struck me as a minor league version of a certain former active rec.arts.comics poster).

I got that same feeling, but I can't remember who...any clues, Tyg?

Idiots are everywhere.

And, with the internet, every idiot gets to have his voice heard, unfortunately.

Anyway, I haven't read the story, I'm going to read it, but it did make me wonder why you never see a story like this about Robin, or CM3, or any of the other boy characters.

I seem to remember a public service comic in the 80s about Spider-Man saying he was sexually abused as a child. That may not be canon, but I think he counts as a major male character.

It seems the Supergirl issue did bring about discussion (not all of it intelligent, but oh well) which is probably something PAD had hoped for when he wrote it.

Well I know the guy and he not only doesn't have a history of harrassing creators at cons, he'd never in a million years do such a thing, And he really was joking.

Sorry, BUT THAT DOESN'T FLY.

I don't know you. I don't this other person. All I see are the words that are put down on paper/screen, and that's all I can judge folks by. And, absent anything else, a threat is a threat is a threat is a threat.

I'm sorry folks don't understand that, but you are going to have to realize that your words ARE your own...they're YOUR responsibility...and their prima facie meaning is often the only thing others have to go by.

Words are powerful. Be careful with them.

"Sorry, BUT THAT DOESN'T FLY."

Yes it does. I never argued that Joe was "responsible." Nor did I say anyone was wrong for thinking he was serious. Nor did I argue that Joe was right for making the joke. I'm merely pointing out that he wasn't being serious and he doesn't have a history of harassing creators at cons. All the ALL CAPS responses in the world aren't going to change that.

And here's the most hilarious thing: On that thread, they're now complaining that, man, isn't it rotten that they're not allowed to complain about a comic book, and gee, all these mean old Peter David fans are dumping on them just because they didn't like a comic.

When, of course, not a single person has disputed the right not to like a comic. What's been challenged is the distorting of its contents, commenting on it without having read it, and making threatening statements directed at the author of the work.

Very sad.

PAD

I'm merely pointing out that he wasn't being serious and he doesn't have a history of harassing creators at cons. All the ALL CAPS responses in the world aren't going to change that.

Well, heck, maybe the person who posted that this guy has a history of harassing creators at cons was...

JUST KIDDING!!!!

Yes, adding "Just kidding" to anything makes it a-okay. Right? We're planning revenge...JUST KIDDING! Let's team up and knock Peter David to the floor...JUST KIDDING!

I don't know this guy. I don't know you. But this I know: When it comes to threats...

I don't kid.

PAD

"Well, heck, maybe the person who posted that this guy has a history of harassing creators at cons was...

JUST KIDDING!!!!"

No, he was just wrong.

In that thread, they're now complaining that, man, isn't it rotten that they're not allowed to complain about a comic book, and gee, all these mean old Peter David fans are dumping on them just because they didn't like a comic.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see that. But I see how you like to be melodramatic in everything you do, so I can see how you see that. Personally, when I get wound too tight, I get off the computer and take a nap.

"The fictional have their rights as well."

Hell, forget the thread, that sentence alone encapsulates the worst of fan mentality.

And, in some cases, the best of author mentality. The case of the character and the author getting into a shouting match about the direction a story is heading isn't completely uncommon. (Especially when the author isn't always very kind to the characters)

I think several works of fiction (often horror) have been based on the concept of a character coming to life.

Of course -- the author is the only one with the right to be schizophrenic.

It seems the Supergirl issue did bring about discussion (not all of it intelligent, but oh well) which is probably something PAD had hoped for when he wrote it.

True, and it's still doing that. One of the CBR posters is a female who was around 17 or 18 when she read it, and felt that the lack of closure (as she read it) made the story unsatisfying. I'm paraphrasing, but that's how she saw it. It's her opinion, and it doesn't make her wrong--and really, her opinions on it are worth reading, as are a lot of the thoughts on the comic from the folks who read it. Even some of the folks who didn't read it. That is, IF the comic was really meant to prompt discussion--which it seems to have done.

Or not, it's just an MB, you can always just ignore stuff, right?

And I don't know if Peter David is going to read this, but I will personally guarantee his safety against Joe Rice. He's rather small, and I can always sit on him if it's an issue. Just shoot over an email or call, I hope on a plane to NYC, and look, PAD gets his own yojimbo at the comiccon against the small and hairy Joe Rice. It would be a nice excuse to go to NYC, too.

Mr. David, it seems like you take threats seriously, and maybe everyone has a point that the "just kidding" argument doesn't hold water, but at this point, if it isn't clear that there is no threat coming, that Joe Rice is not out to cause you physical harm, that no one at CBR is out to cause you physical harm, then I'm not sure how it can be any clearer.

So, to recap

1. thanks for writing an issue of a comic that still prompts discussion

2. no one at CBR is out to cause physical harm to Peter David

3. if someone is, I will personally guarantee the safety of PAD as his yojimbo

4. I'm bigger than small hairy Joe Rice

5. I like peanuts.

werd. Feel free to laugh or wade in with some, "God that guy is a wordy moron" statements, s'all good.

-f.

What irks me is the characterization of the thread as an encapsulation of all the worst of fan mentality.

Now, I completely understand the impulse to not read further than the first page of a thread when someone links it you, but please, when a thread is 14 pages long and there's in-depth discussions of extremely interesting and thought-provoking comic book related issues...I just do not see such a thread as the "worst of fan mentality."

In fact, Peter himself clearly read up to the last page of the thread, as he references the posters making reference to this site...but he doesn't mention the pages and pages and pages of valid, interesint points about the treatment of women in comics and the possible inappropriateness of using Mary Marvel in the comic?

That seems almost reminscient of the worst of creator mentality...pick one extremist point of view as the encapsulation of the debate so you can write off the valid claims as extremists as well...

Hi there. I'm the guy you're talking about. Pleased to meet you. Thanks for the insults, I'm sure some of them were deserved.

Is "Just kidding" a good excuse? Nope. I can say that I never thought anyone would think I was serious when I said that the fictional have rights, that I was going to steal the Cosmic Treadmill that the Flash gave Julius Schwartz, or that I was going to hire a bum or a hooker to help me push PAD over.

That was, I suppose, my mistake. I know not everyone shares the same sense of humor, but I really thought for sure that there wasn't a fanboy on the internet that would actually think the things I said.

My biggest mistake was making judgments before reading the book. Is it heresay when a close, trusted friend tells you something? I suppose. I did go out and purchase the book the next day to make my own judgment, as you can read further in that thread.

It certainly wasn't assault-worthy, and I apologize for even making jokes of that nature. Poor taste on my part. I do still believe the story was in poor taste, but that's just my opinion. I'd never infringe on an artist's right to write (awkward phrase alert) whatever they wanted. My intention was to find out if this story was as I was told, and to simply express "Ew." I still think "Ew," but it's hardly a PADcentric "Ew." I feel "ew" about how women are treated in comics all-too-often. And it's mostly just cultural indoctrination that affects us all. But I'm rambling.

I didn't come here to this site because A) I, not being a huge fan, didn't know about it. And B) didn't really think the issue was that serious. My post was full of bluster and hyperbole, and, as one poster pointed out, I did forget that anyone can come look at it. Another mistake in the Joe corner.

For the guy who said I had a reputation of doing bad things to pros at cons, well, I really don't. One kid, that Writerboy guy, he thinks I make an ass of myself online and we don't personally jibe. That's fine, not everyone needs to like each other. But I've never, and would never, do a single rude thing at a con to anyone. I was raised by a polite Appalachian family. The very thought of actual rudeness makes me dizzy.

When I got tired of joking around, I expressed my actual thoughts on the story, which I have read. I think it's inappropriate, but that's just me.

So, I made mistakes, yes. I'm still bewildered at why, when complaining that I didn't come here to talk about it, you stay here and not make an attempt to contact me. I'm also bewildered by the fact that one dumb thread can label me as a mindless, drooling fanboy. We all have our moments, folks. I forgot I was in public and said things that friends would understand. A fellow who thinks rather poorly of me for whatever reason decided the world needed to know, and so now we have two silly threads talking about people and things without knowing the full story.

I apologize for my poor joke. Think what you will of me; I know who I am and what I am, and those who care about me do as well. I hope everyone has a pleasant day and a better tomorrow.

Two more points:

Feel free to email me with problems or questions, anyone.

and . . .

I'm not THAT small, f.! I'm six one! But thin, yes. And certainly undangerous. My second grade CLASS knows I'm undangerous. (But, hey, if someone pays for you to come to NY, that's cool, too.)

I read through 11 pages of this last night, after I first saw the link in the other thread. First of all, it seems ludicrous to me that someone would make such a big deal about a comic without even reading the thing! That aside, I took the threats at face value. However, having read the later pages, I believe the people concerned when they say that they weren't serious about it. Does that let them off the hook? No.

The basic theory seems to be "I was saying things that were really extreme, and surely it's obvious that no rational person would really be willing to attack a writer to defend a fictional character's honour". I would agree with that. The problem is that there are two possible conclusions:

a) The poster is a rational person, who's only joking.

b) The poster is irrational, has lost all sense of proportion, and really is willing to lash out physically.

Unfortunately, I've heard of enough cases in the latter category that I will take comments like this at face value, particularly if they come from someone that I don't know, who posts under a fake name. The infamous "cup of warm vomit" incident springs to mind.

Similarly, I'm reminded of HEAT (the "bring back Hal Jordan as Green Lantern" campaign), which has been running for almost a decade now. Just to clarify, I am not suggesting for a moment that any member of HEAT is dangerous (although I'm not vouching for them either). I do think that they prove it's plausible for people to get very emotionally involved with the fate of fictional characters.

So, combine the two issues, and you've got trouble.

I think accountability is important here. (I'm also reminded of the scene in PAD's Spider-Man novelisation, where Jameson compares the people who signed the Declaration of Independence to "fluffybunny27".) I post under my real name. Consequently, if I started threatening people, you could report me to the police. You wouldn't even need to get my ISP's co-operation, given that I'm listed in the electoral roll. That then means that I'm careful about what I say, and hopefully means in turn that people will take what I say more seriously. Whereas it's very easy to hide behind a pseudonym to take potshots at people. (Even if that anonymity isn't as real as you perceive it to be.)

I think that when a misunderstanding like this arises, the appropriate way to handle it is for the person who started it ("DaDamerican" in this case) to apologise. Something like "Actually, I was joking, and I thought that was obvious. However, apparently it wasn't obvious, since people were concerned, so I'm sorry if I worried or offended anyone, and I'll try to be more careful in future." I don't think that insulting people is such a great idea.

The only thing I would disagree with PAD about is his comment above:

Go to the author's publicly known website and ask him about it

If people are discussing the latest issue of "Fallen Angel", then I'd agree with that - it's a convenient place to voice any concerns that you might have. However, the comic in question here is about 10 years old, so you'd need to "hijack" an existing topic to mention it. Maybe that's ok (certainly it's PAD's forum, so he can make the rules), but it's not something that would have occurred to me as the right thing to do.

"The shower scene they're referring to is from SUPERGIRL #77, page 11. On the CBR boards, "DaAmerican" used to go by the moniker of "Joe Rice"; at the time of this issue's publication, Joe had started a thread denouncing #77 because he decided that ONE PANEL had turned the book into soft-core porn. "

And now he's threatening violence as revenge for how a character is written. So precieved fictional sex bad, real senseless violence good?

This is why by and large i stay away from most forums nowadays...

No, he's not.

You just got here late, and missed all the good parts. Now we are just waiting to see if PAD will accept the apology. So don't try to restart the fighting. Go watch Tweek vs Craig instead.

Ah, but he did. I see he's stepping back from all this with by labeling it good clean fun, but it doesn't change the fact that, yes, he made a threat. His intentions to carry that out are up for debate I guess.

I still find it ironic that he and others seem to find a story with fictional cartoon characters that involves sexuality horrid, but threatening violence on a real live human being, if even only a joke, a laugh-riot.

I dig the way the guy who wrote "I will personally guarantee [PAD's]safety against Joe Rice" also claimed Rice is "rather small," when Rice reports he's 6'1". Very reassuring.

I think Rice's apology and a few of his much later comments indicate he's not necessarily the out-of-control jackass he initially appeared to be. But the beginning of that thread was quite creepy...

Goodman--

Dude, Joe Rice is like a buck oh five, WET (last time I checked anyway). Tall doesn't equal large to me (I'm 6'0" or 6'1"). I stand by my protective capabilities.

You realize that reassurance isn't worth the weight of the phosphors that display it.

KET,

Originally the referred to shower scene in Supergirl #77 was not refered to as softcore porn. Joe Rice initially compared it to child porn.

And just so people know, there are well intentioned people who discuss and debate without crossing over to insanity on the CBR message boards.

A few bad apples etc.

Isn't it funny how people are silly? And how people are so eager to point out a supposed drooling fanboy mentality, when this was all started because a fan tattled about the thread to the creator he is such a huge fan fan of?

Let's see now... Hi. My name is Jim MacQuarrie. I'm another one of those freaks who posts under my real name, and you can learn way too much about me at my website if that's your inclination. To the point: I've been around CBR for about 6 or 7 years now, and I've personally met several dozen of the regulars from there, including F. Chong Rutherford (I host an annual dinner at San Diego Comic Con). I haven't met Joe in person yet, but I've had conversations with him off and on for most of those 6 or 7 years. i've also been a Moderator at CBR for about 5 years or so, for whatever that's worth. Credentials established? OK then.

I can assure you that (a) F's capacity to serve as yojimbo is beyond dispute (he's skilled in several martial arts, and he's one of the kindest and gentlest people I know, but not afraid to do what needs doing) and (b) Joe Rice is occasionally noisy, sometimes puts his foot in it, and is basically a very decent guy from whom nobody has anything to fear.

I too have problems with the story as described, since either a child molestor is running around town due to Supergirl's doubting the account, or Mary Marvel is a dangerous and delusional girl with the power of the gods at her disposal. Either way it's not a satisfying ending. It doesn't help that since Mary is the victim and isn't about to tell Supergirl her identity, we basically have Supergirl getting hearsay testimony on one side vs personal knowledge of the accused. Something of a stacked deck, I'd say. Whatever point we're supposed to take away from the tale is undercut by the all-too-visible contrivances of the story.

So anyway, nobody's going to get hurt by anybody, the story in question is not one of Mr. David's best, and the folks at CBR are pretty much a great group of folks.

Nope. I can say that I never thought anyone would think I was serious [...]

Except that was not the threat you started with. No, it started out more vague and sinister.

It certainly wasn't assault-worthy

Are you suggesting that some story might have been?

"KET,

Originally the referred to shower scene in Supergirl #77 was not refered to as softcore porn. Joe Rice initially compared it to child porn."

....which means Joe's rant was even more idiotic than I remembered. Wow, what a difference!

"And just so people know, there are well intentioned people who discuss and debate without crossing over to insanity on the CBR message boards.

A few bad apples etc."

....who continued to EGG JOE ON, making the thread devolve WELL PAST THE POINT OF REASON. And gee, the amazing thing is that it DIDN'T get shut down!

The fact that this public fracas made its way over here strongly suggests to me that CBR moderators simply aren't doing their jobs properly.

KET

Gee, and I thought I was mad way back when Claremont gave Storm that punk hair-do. Now THAT was a violation!

Hello, I am Christine Calise, otherwise known as Rally on the CBR boards.

I regret that so many of you seem to think so badly of us, and of Joe. We are all pretty tight over there, which is a double edged sword. We have fun, and get rowdy, and totally forget what it might look like from outside.

While I agree that threats should be taken seriously, and that most victims know thier attackers, I still have to agree with those who are telling you, Joe is not a threat. I have had sushi with him, talked with him, argued with him, watched him get piss drunk, invited him to my wedding, etc. And so far as past behavior is the best predicate for future behavior I can tell you the worst you can probably expect from him is to get hit with hyperbole. A lot of hyperbole. Immense amounts of...um, I digress. What's my point again....

Fanboys of all kinds, are everywhere. Are the ones who disagree with you worse then the ones who hang on your every word? Both kinds are likely to devolve into a snit at a moment's notice. And just as quickly, get over it. It's a tempest in a tea pot, and we need to dump it out and make some tea. And cake. We mustn't forget the cake.

Another friend of Joe's here. Well, long time acquaintance might be more apt. And when Christine says hyperbole, she's being nice and not saying "bullsh##". Because that's what Joe does, he Bullsh##s at times.

And when he's called on it, he apologizes, as seen above.

Morts, I thought hyperbole was yiddish for bullsh**....

KET said, "The fact that this public fracas made its way over here strongly suggests to me that CBR moderators simply aren't doing their jobs properly."

How's that? Are CBR moderators supposed to chase down people and prevent them from discussing matters elsewhere? Because that, to me, is bad moderatorship which is not what happened. Someone at CBR thought he'd report what was being said about PAD here, and then everyone here began discussing the people at CBR, but not actually discussing things with the people from CBR until they had to show up here.

Plus, the fact that anyone can take what Joe said as an actual threat is ridiculous to me. We (yes, I said we) started discussing how Joe could hire a hooker or bum to kneel behind PAD while Joe made his points defiantly to the point where PAD tripped backwards over the squating bum or hooker. Now, how the hell do you take a threat seriously after a comment like that? Hell, for most of the thread, the discussion was more about Mary Marvel and the appropriate/inappropriate use of her in the story. Did some of you think Joe planned to steal Julius Schwartz's Cosmic Treadmill too? Would I have taken any of that as threatening if someone said that about or to me? No. I'm not very afraid of someone hiring a hooker or bum to help trip me.

Am I talking to everyone here? Of course not. Just those that still somehow see Joe's comments as threatening after they read the thread and after he posted his comments here. CBR, like here and everywhere else in the world, has a large variety of different people.

Just this week, I signed on at the CBR boards so that I could post there. Maybe I shouldn't have.

I'm from CBR, too. And I'm another who's met one Mister Joseph Walter Rice in person.

It is because of these facts that I can honestly say the following words: Don't trust these others from CBR. They're liars and crooks and would sooner sell their own mothers than spit on them. Or something to that general effect.

I'll tell you the really real story. God's honest truth.

Joe's plan was far more heinous than anyone might imagine! Does it really sound to anyone here like this dastardly fiend would be satisfied by the mere hooker-tripping of his most-hated nemesis-of-nearly-four-days-now? I say thee nay!

I daren't describe the specifics here for fear of offending more delicate readers (these ARE public forums available for ANYONE to read, after all), but I will briefly gloss over some of the more horrible specifics.

It involved pulleys, suction cups, and broomsticks with boots jammed on the ends of them. Did you ever play "Mousetrap" when you were a kid? It was sort of like that.

Chilling.

And it is with THIS IN MIND that I feel I must relay a warning. Being the fair, honest, calls-'em-as-I-sees-'em type that I am, I simply cannot reiterate what others in this thread have already mentioned:

CBR is a terrible, terrible cesspool. Filled to the brim with these things the Greater-of-Us like to call "fanboys" and "trolls." Yes, I hear that word bandied about QUITE OFTEN when discussing CBR.

Our own demagogue put it better than I can, really. "Rarely do you see the worst of the fan mentality so neatly encapsulated in one place" (David, P. http://www.peterdavid.net, 11/13/2003 Entry).

Anyone that has visited the boards over there for two minutes and made a judgment is absolutely, 100%, without-a-doubt right and should just never go back! It's a dump! I've TOTALLY decided to stop going there.

And like-minded people should do the same thing! By which I mean...staying here forever. And not going over there. Because it's bad. And you wouldn't like it.

Also, keep Writerboy over here.

I mean, WE should keep Writerboy over here. With US. At these boards here, wherever the hell I am.

"Just this week, I signed on at the CBR boards so that I could post there. Maybe I shouldn't have."

That's the spirit, Alan!

**You know, for the longest time, I wanted nothing more than to become a writer for a Big Two comic book...

And then I saw this thread, and found that no matter how good the work I do is, some people will invariably make their own judgments on my work without reading it, accuse me of things I might or might not have meant inbetween the lines, accuse me of being bipolar and heavily drugged, and compare my work with scenes of cartoon sodomization.

I think I'll stick to warehouse work.

Mark Hughey**

Hate to tell you this but you don't have to be a writer for the Big Two in order to run into that stuff. Things like that happen all the time to folks who, like you and me, are the rank and file of the workplace world. Just a few weeks ago I had problems with a couple of male teen-age co-workers who decided to make it a point to ask me at almost every opportunity if I was bi-polar or not, and refusing to take the hint that I was not going to ever answer that question (I still remember enough of how highschoolers think to know that either answer is the 'wrong' answer here: a 'no' answer would get me a barrage of statements to the effect that I should 'come clean' about my 'problems' and stop lying to myself; a 'yes' answer would have given these boys permission to trash my reputation beyond repair with both customers and co-wokers alike because after all, I did admit to being 'ill' and if I admitted to something like that then it's not slander nor wrong of them if they spread it as far and wide as they wish.). One boy was writing 'Chris is bi-polar' or 'is Chris bi-polar?' any time he felt like it on a message board that was visible to any customer passing by the window (I work in a fast food place, by the way) and the other was starting to ask me if I was bi-sexual too (BI-polar BI-sexual, get it? huh-huh, get it? :P ). None of the ways I tried (ignoring it and them, asking 'smart' questions of my own, making 'smart' answers, threatening to sue them for harrassment, having a manager talk to them, ect.) to get them to lay off the questions worked. What finally did work was telling the managers who had some say in the hiring and firing of employees what was going on and having THEM have a little talk with these two boys about what was appropriate topics for conversation and what wasn't. Haven't been bothered by them on those topics since, though I'm sure they still say that stuff to their friends/co-workers. Just not to me or to my face. Though I did overhear one of the boys telling one of his friends that he couldn't figure out why I had made such a big deal of it, threatening harrassment suits and such over a simple question when all I had to do to get him to shut up was answer yes or no. . . . . (yeah riiiiiiiiight, that would have worked. NOT.)

Anyhoo, to get this post back to what I wanted to originally say (and out of my personal problems :) ), you don't have to be a writer on PADguy's level of quality and sales or higher to get hit with variations on the mentality we're discussing here. Just be considered 'different' by a co-worker and/or aquaintence who's essensially a turd with an attitude and a mouth and you too can experience this 'joy' in your own life as well. So if you still want to be a writer, go for it. Just remember to wear a rhinohide coat to keep both legitamite criticisms and moronic barbs from getting to you and bringing you down, and accept that you're going to run into those idiots you're afraid of no matter what you do or write. Let's face it, if you somehow managed to only write stories on subjects that could never ever be considered controversial by anyone anywhere, the 'fans' you're afraid of would still find some way of turning your body of work into an interpretation of your preverted sexual practices. :)

Chris

How To Do It Wrong, Redux, or Two Wrongs Won't Make It Right.

So, in response to Joe Rice making a veiled threat and getting some dumbass fanboy internet yuks over on CBR, how do you respond?

Do you call him to task for it?

Do you ask politely or otherwise for an apology, retraction or amendment?

Or do you do exactly the same thing as he did on your own board?

Joe makes a threat.

You make a counterthreat.

Joe gathers his CBR buddies to offer him moral support and say mean things about Peter David.

You gather your buddies to offer you moral support and say mean things about Joe Rice.

Joe mocks your writing.

You mock Joe's posting.

The only difference I can see is that when Joe was called, he was 'only kidding'.

When you were called, you 'take threats very seriously'.

Congratulations.

You win.

I'm a fairly new poster to CBR, but so far it's the best comics board I've been to, populated by adult, friendly and intelligent people, on the most part. Very little flaming, very little anything bad. I really don't have the time to go through either this thread or the one referenced in their entirety, but I think there's some over-reaction here. I've seen MUCH MUCH worse, as far as this sort of thing goes, and wouldn't worry too much about DaDaAmerican's "threats", which I think are a pretty lame joke... true, it'd be more respectable confronting PAD directly, but chances are this is his "plan", if any. And I'll bet he's gonna be polite about it when face to face, too.

If I were you, Peter, I'd log on there and spend some time discussing the topic. And check the rules while you're at it - hate posts, especially against creators, are considered very poor form at CBR. We all love it when one of you guys drop by to chat with us, and you'd probably feel very welcome and be called Mr. PAD.

: )

I need to make something very clear. I've known Joe Rice for maybe 7 years now. I'm 5'11 and there's no way he's two inches taller than me. I mean, not even a chance.

As to all this other stuff, I really enjoy when fanboys call each other fanboys as a derogatory statement. That's quality stuff. It makes everyone involved a lot cooler.

How To Do It Wrong, Redux, or Two Wrongs Won't Make It Right.

So, in response to Joe Rice making a veiled threat and getting some dumbass fanboy internet yuks over on CBR, how do you respond?

Do you call him to task for it?

Do you ask politely or otherwise for an apology, retraction or amendment?

Or do you do exactly the same thing as he did on your own board?

Joe makes a threat.

You make a counterthreat.

What counterthreat? He just said it illustrated the worst of the fan mentality.

I hear that the show promoters may change the dates of the Big Apple show to throw this "Joe Rice" character off the trail.

Good thinking.

Hi PAD Posters,

Guys, I'm not sure how things are over here, but over at the CBR community board we tend to forget that not everyone knows every poster and their sense of humor. Dada has a bit of a chip on his shoulder when it comes to certain creators and a huge chip on his shoulders when it comes to certain characters. And he definitely has a very, well, um, peculiar sense of humor.

However, he is makes his living teaching inner city school children and is well liked by the posters who have met him in real life. He is one of the good guys. His comments come from a deep concerns about children and the exploitation of women. Yes, he might be a bit reactionary but his heart and mind are in the right place. So, while I won't excuse his sometimes boorish behavior, I will ask you to remember that his comments definitely need to be judged in the context in which they were presented - a message board he has frequented for over 7 years where 'everyone knows his name.'

One last thing - one of the posters here made some really interesting points about Ambush Bug. To that poster -please, if you ever feel inclined, come over to the Classics board at CBR and join in on the debate. Yes, there is some silliness on the board, but it is also the home of some fantastic discussions. Through that board, I've been promted to read some great books such as the EC New Wave books and Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck.

Heck, I invite all of you to come over to CBR. I think that after a little exploring you'll find that we have something for everyone.

In response to Dubin: I've never met Joe Rice, but I have drank his liquor. And Maker's Mark is a tall man's liquor.

My name's Dan Apodaca. I'm from CBR. I also happen to be a friend of Joe's. I just thought I should clarify something. Joe never asked us to do anything about this. He never called for us to back him up, or rally behind him. He wasn't even the one who told us that you guys were talking about this here. So, I just thought it should be well understood that this is not a matter of Joe calling for his posse. Anyone who has ventured over to this discussion has done it by their own free will, and independent thought.

I'm not here to defend Joe. I don't think I need to, and frankly, it's not my place. Joe can take care of himself, and he did as much by posting his own response.

Regardless, I think it's awfully ridiculous what's going on here. Fans calling other fans "fanboys" as an insult is analogous to tech-geeks calling each other the same. We all have a little bit of fanboy in us. Joe gets geeky over the Marvel family. You guys get geeky over PAD. I get geeky over Dan Clowes.

The point is, all this requires is a little rational thought. CBR is one of the most well-establishedand respected comic-sites on the internet. The owner and head is well-informed of any problems that may arise on the message boards, as I'm sure Mr. David is here. If there were a situation in which he honestly believed that one of the posters was making threats toward a creator, or any other person for that matter, it would have been dealt with immediately. Joe has been a long-time poster on the site, and Mr. Weiland should know fairly well whether he is dangerous or not. Therefore, if Joe is considered to be harmless by a large amount of CBR posters, as well as people who have met him in person, as well as website administration, it seems to me that it should be fairly clear to be the truth.

Now, we've established over and over that Joe has (and had) no sinister intentions towards Mr. David. And yet, the only response that seems to come is "I don't buy it." or "No way, this guy's a jerk." So, how about we have a little fairness on both sides? You guys lay off the CBR/Joe attacks, and we remember that Joe already apologized and has since layed off of PAD.

Now, anyone on this board care to actually discuss the issue in question?

Now, anyone on this board care to actually discuss the issue in question?

Well, I did in detail in a separate post. The response? Pretty much dead silence.

Why did I not come onto the CBR board and respond directly? Because putting aside that I didn't feel like dealing with the "That's not really Peter David!" crap that invariably accompanies such endeavors...it seemed a hostile environment interested less in hearing real answers than in posturing, chest thumping, and stupidity. Not everyone was like that, granted, but enough for me to figure, "Eh. Not worth it."

Now: In the past, people have e-mailed me and said, "Hey, this book of yours is being discussed, and there's disagreements as to your intent, would you care to come over and chat about it?" In those cases, I'm there in a heartbeat. But the CBR environment seemed toxic. So why bother?

PAD

I am sorry that you feel that way, Mr. David.

I am a big fan of yours and I participated in the thread in question over on the CBR Board.

I never really felt that Joe was a physical threat to you, but I did want to know exactly what his intentions were. Joe is one of the good guys and I am sure that his apology was sincere.

I do understand that you don't have the time or inclination to go off and defend yourself every time that your name is mentioned on a message board, but I think you might have been pleasantly surprised had you ventured to CBR. As far as I am concerned, the invitation is still open.

Thank You so very much.

Mark B. (For Baronner)

All you seem to want to do is bait PAD to go over to your lame comic forum where all they do over there is bash comic creators and writers. Pretty obvious.

"All you seem to want to do is bait PAD to go over to your lame comic forum where all they do over there is bash comic creators and writers. Pretty obvious."

Ah, another considerate and thoughtful response. You've read one thread out of maybe a hundred thousand and that's enough for you to form an opinion?

Okay, I admit it - you're right. Even the Television and Music boards are clandestine creator-bashing forums. The Hellboy forum that CBR hosts for Mike Mignola? Yup, you guessed it. More creator-bashing. The only reason Mike pays for the board is that he's actually a masochist.

I guess the jig's up. Now we'll all have to move out of our parents' basements, get jobs, and lose our collective virginity.

"All you seem to want to do is bait PAD to go over to your lame comic forum where all they do over there is bash comic creators and writers. Pretty obvious."

If that were the case, Peter David is the last guy I would want coming to CBR.

He's way too smart.

You are more than welcome to give it a try as well, you might just be pleasantly surprised.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/

Mark B.