...oh wait, there are some of you who haven't seen the episode yet. We'll just continue it in the "read more" section to avoid spoilers.
There. Now, the question was asked, "How come Lorne didn't read the puppeteer when he was singing, so that he'd know what's going on?"
Simple-- the puppeteer was played by David Fury. It's a rule-- characters NEVER know what the writers have planned.
Posted by Glenn Hauman at February 19, 2004 11:29 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingYou do not control the puppeteer. The puppeteer controls you.
Dance! Dance, mortals, dance! Dance!
did you like it PAD? Alot of people I know either loved it or thought it was stupid. I thought they played it out pretty good, but then again, I grew up with the Muppets on TV.
While I realize it was filmed before Julie died, I had been hoping they'd've worked in a different comic book reference than the Joker. Namely, Angel revisiting Flash's classic line from a cover "I have the strangest feeling I'm being turned into a puppet!".
http://www.captaincomics.us/archives/sillymoments/sillymoments3.htm for a look at the cover and a story synopsis.
Really liked this episode of Angel!! It was hilarous! So many great moments!! :)
Definitly want to see this episode again.
DF2506
" Also thought Captain Marvel was good this week. But thats another thread."
Any irony in this being a story about a puppeteer making a pact with demons right when they've announced that the Muppets were sold to Disney?
WRITERS ARE EVIL!
Or they are puppets of demons.
Peter is off on a business trip right now. He'll be back sometime this weekend and once he has watched all the video I have taped for him, he'll write Cowboy Pete.
The whole time I was watching, I kept thinking of the Young Justice arc with the children's TV show and the cult (Kali, was it)? I know the idea of evil kiddie shows is pretty common, but I wonder if the writers didn't get some inspiration from it...
I really liked the episode. I figured it would be fantastic or awful, and it turned out to be much closer to the first. But it was Ben Edlund, after all.
Also, it was nice that Smallville wasn't cringe-inducingly bad this week like it was last week.
As usual with the Buffyverse, it seems to me that Angel has been feeling like he's been turned into a puppet at Wolfram and Hart so they had to make him an actually puppet.
I thought the episode was great. When he popped off his nose, the flying lunge behind his desk, stamping down the hallway with a huge sword, and of course the vamp puppet.
Too bad next week Joss is going to kick us in the stomach once again.
Just can't have too many happy feelings in the Buffyverse I guess.
I love the Buffyverse, but I'm starting to wonder if Joss doesn't have something against women. Yeah, I know Buffy is all about girl power, but look what he's done to her over the years.
Whenever a major character dies, it's usually a woman. I can't think of too many of the leading men that have bit the dust on a permenant case. They usually just leave. Oz, and Riley come to mind.
Jenny Calender(sp), Buffy's Mom, Tara, Anya, Cordy...
Now you could argue Doyle, but he was created to die so it doesn't really count. Joss knew he wanted to create a main character that the audience would relate to then kill them off. We'll rule Spike, Buffy and Angel out because as we know they all came back.
I'm not saying he's doing it on purpose, he might not even be aware of it, but still it's just odd.
Best episode of the past two seasons, at least the ones I've seen. Hit the perfect note of hilarious-and-creepy, the Spike scene was side-splitting, and it was soooo good not to have more sturm und drang all the time...
The Spike scenes really were great and the whole thing was a lot of fun. I really hope that there is not a real death next episode, but I guess we'll see what happens.
How about the development this episode with Gunn making a deal with the devil to retain his knowledge. Nasty business there which might not end well.
As for Doyle, I am not sure he was really created to die. I thought it was only after he was having personal problems that he was written out. Of course, maybe he was just written out earlier than originally planned because of those problems.
Neil
Hilarious episode, and they gave the pay off I was waiting for, from the very first of the previews I saw for the episode I said "Can he go "vamp-face" as a puppet?"
And then there was the payoff near the end. I wish they'd done Spike as a puppet too though.
If Angel doesn't get picked up anywhere else, and they do an auction like they did with buffy, then the Angel puppet will probably net them a huge profit if it goes up on the block...
Why wait for an auction? I see a perfect merchandising opportunity in selling small versions of "puppet" Angel. They could even expand the line to all the major characters (Spike and Lorne would be great sellers). All they have to do is figure out how the have the vampire puppets "vamp". I'd buy two today.
Loved the episode by the way. "Hush" is still the best episode ever in the Buffyverse, but this one makes my top ten.
Joss Whedon has my respect. He's one of the few people who can create a hilarious bad-ass. I laughed my ass off during the entire episode (the dramatic slow-mo shot and climactic battle especially), but as I was laughing, I kept thinking about how kickass this episode really was. Sure, it was extraordinarily silly, but the Angel puppet perched on top of that roof with a broadsword slung over his shoulder was every bit as ass-kickingly radical as Cordelia's first idea for an Angel Investigations TV commercial back in season one. "I'm the Dark Avenger."
I like that they reminded us that the werewolf girl is still around; it looks as though Joss had an idea for her and needed to remind us she was around; after all, the ironic discussion about noticing womens' attentions aside, she really didn't do much -- even trying to eat Angel didn't have much effect on the plot.
The episode didn't really give enough wrap-up, though; I would love to have known if the puppeteer survived after the puppets were dead. I also would have liked to see more than one person watching Smile Time. Maybe some parents who were in the room when the battle happened, some stoners getting high and watching some trippy kids show, and so on. A little girl with a TV in her room could hardly have been representative of the show's entire demographic.
That said; is it just me, or did Smile Time not seem like a bad kids' show? I couldn't help but think segments of the show we saw were actually good edutainment. Y'know; aside from the demonic possession thing.
I have done smaller Angel and Buffy Handpuppets. James Marsters has a Spike and a Gentleman that I did. I should finish up some more of them soon. I wanted to do a hand puppet set based on Hush with the clocktower backdrop. Sometime I'll get around to it
This episode was written & directed by Ben Edlund (creator of The Tick). Watching the previews, all I could think was "Je m'appelle le Tick!"[*]. [Edlund's episodes also included ninjas and references to a character as nigh-invulnerable.]
Whenever a major character dies, it's usually a woman
He generally comments that he tries to kill off characters that the audience has become really invested in. I wonder (pure speculation on my part driven by reading your comment) whether that's not also a statement about the audience and its ability to empathize/care more for female characters than male ones...
I wish, after Angel had been ravaged by Nina the werewolf, they would have had a seen with his bad puppet self sucking the stuffing out of a teddy bear to replenish himself.
Kathleen, are there any pics of your puppets online? I, for one, would be interested in seeing them.
Sorry. No puppet pics at this time. It's one of those things I keep meaning to get around to on my website.
"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet-hole, bitch!"
Now, honestly, just how FUNNY was that line? LOL. Well, to me, it was hilarious...along with the fact that even though Angel was a puppet, he STILL kicked Spike's butt...LOL.
Yeah pretty much a classic. I laughed so hard on many occasions. I too wish there had been more 'puppet versions' of other characters....puppet Spike....Puppet Lorne...Hah! And Puppet Fred would've been cute. And imagine her kissing puppet Wesley!
Ahh, okay I grew up on the muppets too...
Oh and yes Ben Edlund wrote and directed but it was based on a story he and Joss wrote together.
I was hoping they would turn Spike into a puppet...or at the end have puppets of all the cast waving goodbye. That would have been funny.
I thought it was terrific, and sure it was hilarious for the most part, but that opening scene was one of the creepiest things I've seen on TV since "Hush". It sent a chill down my spine!
I'm hoping that, despite what all the previews are saying, the events of next week will not prove to be permanent-- what I've heard sounds ridiculously similar to what happened to another beloved character last season, and those of you who know what I'm talking about also know how well THAT all turned out.
Re: The singing question... it wasn't actually the puppeteer singing. He was being manipulated. And the puppeteer himself seemed like a genuinely good and decent guy, so it's entirely possible that Lorne could have read him without realizing who was, er, pulling the strings.
Also... I like to think of myself as a reasonably enlightened and high-minded individual, but am I the only one who considers the charming Ms. Jenny Mollen (Nina the werewolf) to be hotter than the surface of the Sun? Should Angel miraculously return for a sixth season, I'd definitely like to-- I almost said "see more of her," but that's technically not possible without some serious revisions to network standards and practices. So I guess "become at least a recurring character" would be the best phrasing.
Anyone notice that when PuppetAngel pulled off his nose, David plugged his own nose while speaking the the voice-over? Very nice subtle touch of reality there.
Yup. Just GOTTA agree with you on that, Nato...she is definitely hot.
As for Doyle, I am not sure he was really created to die. I thought it was only after he was having personal problems that he was written out. Of course, maybe he was just written out earlier than originally planned because of those problems.
On the commentary for the first two episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Joss said that he always wanted to have a character show up on the opening credits so that the audience thought they were safe and then kill them. He said he wanted to do that with Eric Balfour's character, Jesse, in the first two Buffy episodes, but I believe they didn't have the budget ot re-do the opening credits. He said that he finally got to do it on Angel, so I believe that killing Doyle was always the plan.
I am very surprised no one has mentioned the nippilage in the shot where Nina is worried she ate Angel. I think it was covered (with a nipple shield sort of like a pasty) but it might not have been.
Overall, I really liked it but of course this episode was so in my wheelhouse it was trying to pilot.
Awesome episode. Too bad I missed the first Nina episode. She was hot, reminded me of Darla a bit.
Turning the entire Angel Crew in muppets would be so funny. :)
Wasn't the Doyle killed due to off set problems?
Kathleen:
NOT sure whether it was covered or not either, really...but yes, I DID see it. I'm a GUY, after all...LOL.
On a side note and as someone mentioned earlier: the scenes with Spike in them were absolutely hilarious.
"Don't SAY it!"
Superb episode in nearly every way.
Nearly.
I can't believe they didn't have Puppet Angel count something, especially after he went to felt fang-face. My wife and I were both waiting for it through the entire episode. During the final battle, I thought, "Ah, this will be it. He'll hit them saying something like 'I'm going to hit you one time. One, two, times. One, two, three times! Ah-ha-ha."
My respect for Joss and Ben has diminsihed considerably. :-)
Oh, well--not all writers can be PADian. At least we got Ration Hornblower's exquisite demise (injury to the eye motif, indeed), and the dog-puppet showing that even evil entertainment figures have artistic standards.
Anyone wanna guess how much Puppet!Angel is going to fetch on Ebay? I'm thinking it'll blow smelly leather dusters and faux-scythes out of the water.......
That's "Ratio" Hornblower, of course, not "Ration"--though that has a whole new set of possibilities....
Oh, WOW, George! THAT completely slipped my mind...LOL. A "Count" tribute would have been TOO awesome...:)
I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your (anyone's) pockets that someone will make a !!!HUGE!!! amount of money selling the Angel and Vampire-Face Angel puppets on eBay.
A lot of the time when I watch TV I try to exercise, as it's a great way to double-up uses for time. I was doing curls with freeweights during most of the episode, and on several occasions came close to dropping them on my feet I was laughing so hard.
I managed to write down a couple of my favorite lines "I'm gonna tear you a new puppet hole, bitch" is up there, as well as "I do not have puppet cancer!" Puppet Cancer. That's a band name right there...
I do have to say, slightly off topic that a couple of weeks ago someone made an allusion to next weeks events as it referred to the "Big Bad" of the season. Something similar happened last season when Willow's appearance was mentioned weeks before hand (ie, spoiled). I just want to go on record as saying that's no good, and shouldn't happen. Yes, it may be reported other places, as the movements of actors and certain people being on shows or storylines can be revealed ahead of time, but not all of us follow that type of news, nor do I want to. Hopefully, we can keep the spoilage to a minimum.
Peas...
Nipplage? Geez, I watch the show in HD on a mega-huge screen and I managed to miss it. Dang.
I am sorry, I cannot accept that Doyle was meant to die from the beginning. It just doesn't fit. I know Joss has mentioned that he planned it, but I think he is just trying to be nice to Glenn Quinn, and not publicly revealing that they had to fire him.
My husband and me, we both loved it!
He is wondering how long it will be until we can buy the Angel muppet? I am also tempted, I must admit.
Joss Whedon has always maintained that Doyle was meant to die from the beginning and that the actor playing Doyle was aware of this when he signed on.
I am very surprised no one has mentioned the nippilage in the shot where Nina is worried she ate Angel. I think it was covered (with a nipple shield sort of like a pasty) but it might not have been.
***
I don't think it was there. It sure seemed like it should have been but I think that like a lot of scenes in NYPD Blue, the effect is to make you think, "Did I just see...?"
It reminds me of Bill Murray as Frank Cross is "Scrooged" when a censor says a dancer's costume is inappropriate because you can see her nipple: "What? You can't see her nipple! Guys? Can you see her nipple?" [General no's] "See? And these guys are *really* looking..."
The rumor at the time of Quinn's leaving "Angel" was that his drug problems were disrupting the set.
He recently died from a drug overdose.
I don't think Whedon planned to kill Doyle all along.
I totally missed the idea that Angel might start to count things. It would, indeed, have been hilarious.
Did the poor guy with the hand up his back actually sing in front of Lorne? If he did, I'd guess that Lorne read the singer. "He's and evil demon out to amass power by sucking the life out of kids. Well, no surprise there." Or maybe the fact that their songs were linked to a powerful glamor was used here. When the demon/puppet started to sing, he activated the glamor and Lorne saw exactly what he expected and didn't even realize that he should have been able to read him. I kinda like that one.
So can a vampire be turned into a werewolf? I'd always wondered if that was possible but I've never seen a vampire injured by any of the WWs on Buffy/Angel. I'd guess no but if you recall, Angel was under the puppet curse for several days after the show ended so that could have kept him from changing during this full moon cycle. Maybe next month we'll be seeing a vampire-werewolf cross in Angel. Okay, maybe not, but it was a thought.
I have the show taped on hi-def and after re-watching the scene over a few times i have to sadly admit that there is no nipple...damnit...
She still looks flippin' hot though...
Gotta admit the smiley time episode was simultaneously creepy and hysterical.Angel puppet whipping Spikes ass was priceless.
Dont really like the direction with Gunn but will wait and see.Nina is a smoking hot woman ,yeah thought i saw nipple too.Really hope we dont see the end of Fred shes no cordy but skinny girl kinda grows on ya
I know this related to a different Angel Mr. David does, but does anyone know if his DC series "Fallen Angel" is getting cancelled? I wanted to subscribe to it but for some reason it isn't on the DC site to subscribe to.
I hope no one minds if I suggest that for a forum of individuals drawn together in appreciation of a show that might not exist after the end of this television season, we seem to be a right passive lot. While there is a lot of talk about the merits or demerits of each episode of Angel, I'd like to see a bit more assertiveness, if not outright aggression, in the write in campaign to keep the damn thing on the air. Right now I have little to no idea about what anyone is doing and I think this lack of information might be frustrating So, I'm going to start right here right now. Today I purchased twenty-two stamped postcards and got twenty-two people to fill them out. Last night I got information to four individual at work who expressed a willingness to write in and participate. Tomorrow I'm taking more information to the local comic book store.
This isn't the time to wait. In the Sixties a struggling show pitched to the Network as a sort of "Wagon Train to the Stars", wasn't rescued from cancelation by individuals bemoaning it's loss to each other but by them joining together and expressing their collective dissatisfaction to the Powers That Be.
Twenty-two postcards. That's not much, but it's a hell of a lot better than doing nothing.
In the Sixties a struggling show pitched to the Network as a sort of "Wagon Train to the Stars", wasn't rescued from cancelation by individuals bemoaning it's loss to each other but by them joining together and expressing their collective dissatisfaction to the Powers That Be.
Actually, it was saved by its creator starting a letter-writing campaign, which was later discovered to have been made up almost entirely of letters written by the creator and his friends.
I thought it was pretty good. I must admit, I had my doubts after seeing the preview, but the episode was hilarious. Especially the fight with Spike.
Loved this episode. Creepy and yet hilarious!
One thing that puzzles me though...
Anyone know why, when Angel goes to the 'Egg' room for the first time there's a bald, buddha-sitting bad guy with a towel on his head and then later (on Angel's return) he's no longer there or reffered to. Seemed pretty pointless to include him at all.
John
Nippilage (which sounds like a Winter Olympic sport): Yes, I caught it too -- but I think it probably was a pasty, as someone else suggested.
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this, though -- I'd have died if Seth Green had been available for this episode. Not because Greg the Bunny was particularly good or anything...but darn, that would have been funny to have Oz back in an episode with a werewolf and sentient puppets.
Cheers, Jon
in answer to your question regarding if anyone is doing anything besides moaning about the show being canned, I've sent in a slew of postcards to the addresses, and have been harrassing my friends to do the same.
The figure in the room was the Puppeteer in his "off mode".
I am thinking of making "Talk to the hand" my new sig line
"Anyone know why, when Angel goes to the 'Egg' room for the first time there's a bald, buddha-sitting bad guy with a towel on his head and then later (on Angel's return) he's no longer there or reffered to. Seemed pretty pointless to include him at all"
John that guy was the puppet(well human come puppet) that you see talking to Lorne and Gunn when they visit the studio.
Ok was just beaten to it :)
About the save angel campaign - there are too many differant ones we need something like the save farscape site so that its all centralised and can have a bigger effect.
Are we to believe that Mr. "I've been on the Internet for 20 years" is still using something as antiquated as a VCR??
I switched to DirecTV and TiVo in 2002. TV has been SO much simpler:
No worries about switching tapes
one TiVo can record TWO shows at the same time.
Just my $0.02
Fairy snuff on the puppeteer/towel figure, which - of course - is perfectly logical when I bother to think about it.
Kudos to David Fury for playing him. And no mustard in sight!
John
I get Worst Joke of the Week Award for my comment re: Angel & Nina's
DATE:
"So, I wonder if Nina got felt?"
..actually, that wasn't that funny...
This group seems to be taking the lead in the "Save Angel" campaign.
Hope this helps anyone who wants to participate.
Also this one as well, seems there is bad blood between them both. They need to work together if they have a hope. Anubis save us from ego
Virtually everybody involved with Angel has repeatedly denied that there were any problems with Glenn Quinn on the set. The actors, especially DB, have repeatedly said how much they missed Quinn and that he was one of the most likable people they'd ever worked with. DB said that Quinn was "like a brother to me"
Joss & Co created Doyle with the idea that they could kill him in order to illustrate an "anything can happen; even a character in the credits can be killed off." atmosphere for Angel. Joss actually wanted to do that with Jessie in the first year of Buffy, but it didn't work out, so he decided to do it for Angel. They weren't 100% certain they would kill him, but they developed the early episodes as if they were going to. In the end, they decided to go through with it, partly because they felt Doyle was too much like Angel as a character - quiet, brooding, etc.
Regarding Doyle being killed off from Angel. I was at I-Con at Stoney Brook University several years ago where Nicholas Brendan (Xander) appeared. During one Q&A session he was asked about Doyle and he alluded to the fact that there were personal problems involved and that was the reason he was no longer on the show. I remember PAD was in the audience and asked a question that I am sure was on most people's minds at the time. Of all the Buffy women who was the best kisser: Xander's answer - Alyson Hannigan - I would have guessed Charisma Carpenter.
All the comments about selling Angel puppets reminds me of years ago, when NIGHT COURT had an episode about ventriloquists which ended with one of them creating a dummy version of Bull (Richard Moll's character). Not long after that, in the Warner Bros. catalog, they were selling Dummy Bulls. Could the same happen to Angel?
SavingAngel.org and SaveAngel.org need to work together. They both look lik ethey're doing different things. There's a lot more users active on SaveAngel but SavingAngel looks nicer and has raised money for some ads. I don't know who came first, but that shouldn't matter. What does matter is they're all trying to "Save Angel" right?
Regarding the Nina nipple issue, I have a TiVo and checked carefully, and yes there is one frame in which an erect nipple is clearly visible. At first I thought it might be part of a finger, but in looking at the frames before and after, it can't be. It is a nipple.
I'm happier donating my money to www.savingangel.com because I've been an online Buffy/Angel fan for nearly three years, and I've heard of some of the people behind savingangel.com . Look at all the websites that are affiliated with it. It's also made very clear on the website where the money is going to go.
Well, hello, "at," we really must stop meeting like this -- people will talk! But of course you've heard of the people behind "Saving Angel.com" -- you're one of them! More power to you, bro. Keep up the good work. Save Angel!