Some X-Factor comments

First of all, I want to make clear that I very much appreciate the kind comments and even outrage from many fans who are objecting to X-Factor being cancelled. I think it’s swell that people have started a “Save X-Factor” Facebook page and tried to get “SaveANXF” trending on Twitter.

I would also like to say something to the people who are declaring that I’m obviously angry or petulant or whatever because I mentioned that the “wait for trade” attitude leads to books being canceled.

I love how people keep saying that I’m upset. That I’m complaining. That I’m whining. That I’m castigating paying customers. No, I’m really not, and if you people think I sound angry, then I am frankly astounded at the low tolerance level of an Internet that thinks nothing of posting the most vicious, nasty, mean-spirited and typically anonymous comments about creators in the industry and then howl with indignation when any creator (not just me, but any others on countless occasions) says anything that can be remotely construed as hostile.

No, I’m not upset. I simply stated truth. There are some titles that are considered must-buys on a monthly basis and the rest are “I can wait for the trade” and that latter attitude leads to books being canceled. That is simple fact. Now if people want to get angry with me simply because I’m speaking the truth, fine, go ahead. I really don’t care.

PAD

42 comments on “Some X-Factor comments

  1. It seems like your industry is fickle enough, that when you lose a title like this, you probably already saw the writing on the wall months in advance, and all you can do is shrug it off and keep working on the other Stuff that you are Writing. The folks seeing “anger” in your written words are just seeing what they wanna see.

    Wildcat

  2. Truth pìššëš some people off. Too bad. Anyway, sorry XF has to go, was really getting into the whole QS.Polaris relationship.

  3. You’re right that waiting for the trade results in cancelled books because that’s how the system is set up. If every book were to be published as a trade quicker or were guaranteed to be made into a trade version and popularity were based on trade sales including single sales instead of just single sales then that would be different. People waiting for the trade are the cause of the demise of their favorite books. It’s just like people who pirate their favorite music or movies and then complain when the band quits because they’re not making enough money. It’s not exactly the same situation I guess because when you’re buying the trade you’re still buying it, but it those upfront sales that matter for most books and when they don’t get that then they cancel the book. I always only buy single issues unless it’s a book I’m trying to catch up on after a couple years or more and I can’t find the single issues so then I’ll buy the trade, but otherwise only single issues.

    1. People waiting for the trade are the cause of the demise of their favorite books.

      I get that. But I also get that I can get the trades for about half the price of the individual comics.

      Peter was just speaking truth with his observation that people waiting for the trades are helping the books they’re waiting for get cancelled. But if anyone were to say that with a tone of blame in their voice, well, I can’t really see blaming someone for not wanting to pay twice as much for a less pleasant packaging.

  4. “I don’t care” is the right attitude in this situation. (And pretty much any situation that involves “The Internet” but not your home address.)

    But saying “I don’t care” is tantamount to saying “I din;t want those sour grapes anyway!”

    Now I don’t think you’re angry, because I have seen what you write when you are angry. And this ain’t it by half. But I can see why people think you are.

  5. Once upon a time, trade paperbacks were the rewards of a comic book that sold well. Comic books didn’t get second printings because their cover price was too low to make such an idea even remotely possible. So, only the best selling and/or most demanded storylines would be collected. Nowadays, the trade is considered the primary product. The comic book is the loss-leader method of paying creators to produce graphic novels one chapter at a time.

    I buy comic books I like, and don’t buy the ones I don’t. Duh! If I really like a series, I would buy the trades AS WELL AS the series. Not necessarily EVERY trade from that series, but certainly the ones with storylines I loved best. The comic book was for initial reading and eventual storage. The collected trade was for bookshelving and more frequent accessing than the (protected) original comics. IMHO, thinking of the trade as the definitive format leads to the deterioration of the series as a whole, as suggested by Peter’s observation.

  6. I am one of those who is disappointed to see X-Factor canceled. I have enjoyed your work, Mr. David, on the book since your first go-round in the early 1990s. I am also, I should admit, one of those who waits for the trade now. I had had a collection of about 12,500 comics, and for many reasons I decided to sell what I had and buy my most beloved stories in trade form. I also find that I now enjoy reading five to eight issue story arcs more than I did reading one installment at a time. I find I can lend out books more often to people, especially the uninitiated in comics, now that I’m handing them a single book as opposed to s stack of bagged, boarded comics. The trades also usually provide bonus materials like character sketches, script pages, and unfinished art that are of interest to many fans and most scholars of the medium. I liken this switch to what’s happening in television lately. More and more people are not watching weekly shows anymore. Instead, they wait to watch an entire season on Netflix, DVD, or DVR. Many find this to be a more satisfying way of consuming story. The problem there is precisely what is happening in comics – the scales that measure ratings/ sales do not account for those who still want the content, but who are willing to wait to get it. You’ll notice a few TV shows in recent years canceled due to low ratings, but that find new life on another network because DVD and download sales proved high fan interest. Comics are no different in that regard. It may have been premature for Marvel to cancel X-Factor based on the sales figures of less than a year. The series could (and I hope it does) find new life in trade form, which would have justified its continuation. I wonder what the likelihood is of comics publishers eschewing monthly floppies altogether in favor of trade paperbacks exclusively, with those that prove more popular getting the hardcover treatment as well.

  7. Peter, I haven’t seen this addressed (not saying it hasn’t, I definitely could have missed it) but was wondering if you are going to be able to kinda wrap up some of the stuff you have going on in ANXF or if it’s just going to be left hanging? I’ve enjoyed the book, and will continue buying it ’til the end as the monthly. Also looking forward to the 3rd volume of “X-Factor by Peter David” trades.

  8. Never figured your comments were written out of anger, they sounded more bitter at the whole disappointing situation. Really hope that someday the comic industry changes how they measure the popularity of titles, too many great series end prematurely.

    Not sure how effective the #SaveANXF will be in the long-run, but at the very least we’ll let people know how dedicated the book’s fans are and how disappointed we are. I’ve got too much love and attachment to the book to let it go quietly.

  9. I am just angry that the book didn’t take off. It had so many more stories to be told. As far as sales, I personally bought 4 copies of every issue, and several more of Polaris based issues! I also have to say, as no insult at all, having seen PAD in person and at panels, he has a very factual tone to him. Apologies if I too misinterpreted.

  10. Eh, upset or not, I’d say you’re justified. The market is shifting to an unhealthy place. Buying by individual issues is too expensive for most people. While I have more expendable income then most and could afford to, ANXF is still the only marvel book I still bother with, since the rest of the MU has rather soured for me, with ridiculously convoluted, plot hole riddled, over epic nonsense, as everything tries to conform to the movieverse, rather then preserve the rich history and fanbase of the long term readers, in favor of trying to attract new readers through the movies. Either way, expenses as they are, I wonder how long before they switch to a system like japanese manga, where they collect several books each week to put out together in jump books. It would cut down on publishing costs, though the cost would be higher then single issues, it would give a reader access to several different titles at a time for much less, thus also promoting reader interest to those who otherwise would not have paid for those individual titles. Meanwhile, you could still sell the individuals and digital copies. You’d just have to publish less. That aside, I’m saddened by the loss of this book, and I plan to keep reading and supporting til the end, in the hope Marvel/Disney will show mercy and renew it after all.

    1. He didn’t say he was endeared by that attitude, merely that he wasn’t complaining. “Whatever” seems like a legitimate phrase given that.

  11. Peter, why would you not be upset at the cancellation of one of your currently two monthly books? (Or am I misunderstanding?)

    1. Because I found out six weeks ago and I’ve been doing this for thirty years. If I was still upset six weeks after finding out, there’d be something wrong with me.

      PAD

      1. That’s one of the best answers to a question like that that I’ve ever read. I tend to forget how far in advance these books are written.

  12. Peter, if I say I’m waiting for the bus, that doesn’t mean I’d be willing to pay for a taxi if there were no buses. Maybe I would do it to get to work, but if I want to go to the movies, I might just stay home and watch TV instead of pay the extra money.

    It is not a fact that people who buy trades would all buy the monthlies if the trades didn’t exist. That’s an assumption. You heard the phrase “waiting for the trade” and made assumptions about what it means and what would happen without trades.

    I never imagined that you were angry, so much so that you were frothing at the mouth and smashing things in your house. However, you’re definitely some kind of low simmer, grumbly upset. Even a mild insult against paying customers is still not what I’d normally expect from you.

    Again, if you really believe that trades get comics cancelled, talk to Marvel, don’t blame us. We’re just customers, buying the best value product from a company we like. Tell Marvel to stop offering trades, or to raise prices on them, or to do something else that will make the series more profitable. If trades really are getting books cancelled, don’t blame the customers, talk to the company that you think is intentionally losing money.

  13. I must be an even bigger part of the problem. I read all my comics digitally. Marvel Unlimited is exactly what I like! Same with tv…Netflix all the way!

  14. Instead of getting mad at PAD, why not blame the oppressors of the X-Men titles!? The last thing that X-Factor lovers want is blame each other. Blame Breevort & Marts! The next thing I heard is they’re canceling FantadticFour. I’m sure the rest of the X-Books are next. Tweet #SaveANXF and blame @TomBrevoort & @mikemarts

  15. Long time reader, first time writer. Two things that used to be separate converge regarding this general post, and I just wanted to thank you for them.

    First, I recently broke into Marvel, and you were a big help because I learned from your book (which I’ve worn out)and your work (plus, you’ve also inspired me to park my butt and write).
    Also, my favorite character –in spite of all the mockery I’ve gotten from it– is Gambit, a character historically known for having subpar development. Thank you for making a refreshing exception with the All-New X-Factor run. Even if short-lived, I’ll remember it for a lifetime.

    By the way, I hate how it sounds, but I’ll be the artists’ alley supervisor at La Mole Comic Con –hi, how are you?– so I’ll see you later! Take Care!

  16. It’s Marvel’s sales focus that’s at fault here,
    they don’t consider sales of trades as much as they should compared to individual issue sales, leading to comics that sell well in trade-form because people waited for it rather than picking up separate issues to get canceled.

    I can assume that some readers got offended because they read your post as you complaining about people buying trades of your work when you’re simply just stating how trades kill sales as a fact.

  17. Years ago when I worked in a comic store, i encountered the I’ll wait for the trade attitude nearly on a daily basis. I responded the same way you did. Namely, if the monthly doesn’t sell, there won’t be a trade. I find it interesting that this obvious and glaring point is lost on so many.

    1. I agree that it is Marvel’s fault for not counting. Today’s markets are even more consumer driven then corporate driven like they were in the past. Many of us want more affordable/permanent/easier access versus monthly pamphlets. I moved to trades when Quesada took over Marvel and never looked back (and DC, too). Now, I’ve moved to digital, since I no longer have the same disposable income or space in my home. Overall, this sounds like an accounting issue, not a reader issue (although, to Peter’s point, based on the current methodology, the outcome is the same: cancelled titles).

    2. I find it interesting that this obvious and glaring point is lost on so many.

      Also lost on some: Trades can be substantially cheaper than buying individual issues. Excoriating folks for not subsidizing the more expensive format as if their economic prudence is the sole cause of the situation is unfair.

      1. And when there AREN’T any “individual issues” to be collected, do you really think the trades are going to STAY “substantially cheaper?”

        Essentially what you’re saying then is that you want OTHERS to subsidize YOUR cheap ášš. I’d say THAT is “unfair.”

        Call it “economic prudence” all you want; it still means you’re sponging off others. You might as well just go to your local comic shop, grab some books off the shelf and start reading. When you’re done, you just go home without paying for anything. (Or go to your local library and complain that their internet speed is too slow even while you’re not paying to use it.)

      2. That’s a wonderfully utterly bûllšhìŧ response, Joseph.

        Marvel makes trades available. People buy them. But you’re going to rip them a new one because most people aren’t made of gold?

        I stopped buying comics a couple of years ago. I finally gave up ‘the habit’. Why? In large part because they’re just too dámņ expensive any more.

        I don’t even buy trades, so I guess that flat out makes me some kind of áššhølë for not bending over to the demands the comics industry in any form whatsoever, right?

        People buy trades for a number of reasons. Because it’s what they can afford. Because they’d rather read the story all at once. Because they can fit on a shelf instead of a long box.

        But, no, instead of being thankful that people are buying comics AT ALL, we šhìŧ on them.

        Sponging off of others? FFS, what an incredibly dumb argument.

  18. Peter,

    I’ve heard you talk about how trade-waiters lead to lower selling books being cancelled many times before. As a trade-waiter, I know and accept that. But let’s talk about the other side of the coin. As a consumer, I have the right to buy what I want in the format I want. Trades have been around for decades at this point. If Marvel or DC aren’t taking those sales into consideration (and I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t at this point), then that’s their problem. Has this topic been brought up with Marvel management at all? What about digital sales, are those being counted in monthly numbers?

    Another truth is that paying $4 for a 20 page story is pretty dámņ costly these days! Trades help drive that price down a bit, and the savings help me sample more books that I wouldn’t be able to buy as a monthly reader. I love that!

    I’m sorry to hear that X-Factor is cancelled. I’ve always enjoyed your writing, but I encourage you to think about this from a readers point of view. Thanks!

    1. How do you suppose that Marvel or DC (or any company, for that matter) is supposed to figure out how many of the trade sales/orders are UNIQUE sales and how many are essentially “repeat” buyers?

      When you look at the sales of most trades reported through Diamond, they’re really not that great.

      Take the sales figures for the Guardians of the Galaxy TP Vol 2. It collects GOTG #4-10, and carries a cover price of $20. Sure, that’s a bargain compared to the 7 collected issues (~$28) but the first single issue in the collection sold >71,000 copies while the last sold >53,000 copies. The TPB? It sold less than 5200 (that’s less than 10% of the sales of single issue #10). In terms of dollars, that issue #10 produced ~$212,000 (53,000 * $4) while the TPB produced ~$104,000 (5200 * $20).

      BUT, how many of those TPB sales went to people who had NOT already bought the single issues and how many went to people who wanted the collected edition for their bookshelves/easier access/whatever? And how does Marvel (or even Diamond) find out?

      Now, at bookstores……those sales would most likely be to people who hadn’t bought the individual issues but sales figures for those outlets are pretty restricted to industry professionals though it’s unlikely the whole numbers are that much greater than through comic shops.

      1. Joseph, there is one potential flaw to your argument. If trade sales are really that small, then the portion of people waiting for the trade are only less then 5,000, which probably wouldn’t be enough to get a series cancelled. I would think the numbers of trade-buyers would need to be higher for them to affect the monthly issue sales. Or am I missing something in the numbers? For example, if the final issue had been selling at 58,000, would that really have been enough to save it? (I don’t actually know the answer…just speculating.)

  19. Speaking as someone who concluded that you were upset and who posted something to that affect, I sincerely apologize for contributing to the discourse. It’s easy to forget (especially if you’re accustomed to having your posts ignored), that words do matter, and that negativity can spread like wildfire (and it doesn’t take much–just a spark).

    Negativity in the community nearly drove me to quit comics many years ago, particularly since I felt it was turning me negative. I had resolved not to be one of those people who seemed determined not to enjoy perfectly good comics, but in this case I clearly faltered. I did exactly what all those irritating so-called “fans” do–took an innocent comment, jumped to my own conclusions, and voiced my opinion without waiting for more clarification or context. Not a proud moment.

  20. I’m finding it amazing that some people are still arguing this point or trying to pontificate on how it “should” be done to accommodate them. Marvel and others should “take into account” trade buyers in their sales? Marvel should somehow count people who make vague promises to buy a trade “eventually. Some day. when I have the money.”

    Because guess what? Marvel doesn’t care. You can’t put vague promises to buy something in a bank. They need to see sales to justify the printing, period. You can talk about your financial situation or your “rights as a consumer” until you’re blue in the face, none of that will change the reality of the situation, and that your ideas of “how it should be done” are nothing more than spitting into the wind; it’s not going to happen. Look at the problems that occurred when independent comics became a glut: Many retailers wouldn’t order independent comics because they speculated and had a surplus of garbage inventory, so they cut back on everything, event he quality stuff. Stores wouldn’t order copies unless they had guaranteed orders; publishers wouldn’t even PRINT a book unless they had guaranteed orders. Many retailers dug in their heels and said “IF I need some, I’ll order them”, and the publishers said “We’re not printing them unless you ORDER them.” Thus perished many books and publishers, and so that system continues to this day: Something will NOT be printed unless there’s an assumption there will be some kind of profit made. “Promises to buy” don’t count no matter how much you kick and scream that things should change to accommodate you.

    And also… When a book ends, don’t always assume there will be trades to finish off the series. Anyone else still waiting on the rest of the original Spider-Man 2099 run? How about the rest of Peter’s amazing “Captain Marvel” run? How about that third “Fallen Angel” trade? Oh, right… Another company had to do that, and it’s still a pain in the neck to find a copy. So where does that leave the consumer who didn’t buy the monthlies? Missing out on the story unless they go back and shell out the money for the back issues.

    And you have no IDEA how much it galls me that I can use so much of Peter’s uncollected work as an example of this, and I apologize to Peter for bringing it up.

    (Which is also why I still have an entire comic box just devoted to Aquaman and Captain marvel)

    1. Several points:

      1. If the industry isn’t willing to change in order to accommodate the buying habits of its customers, then it deserves what it gets. Let’s face it, the buying habits of people have been changing. From streaming services to new formats, if you don’t keep up, you’re a dinosaur. And we know what happened to them….

      2. It isn’t my responsibility to support the entire industry. It’s my responsibility to buy what I want to buy. Period. Whether it’s trades or singles, they’re still getting my money! If they can’t figure out how to count it, then that isn’t my problem. And yes, I do preorder trades! I still support this messed up system we buy into!

      1. Nobody’s asking you to “support the entire industry”, just the artist. Not buying something because you hate the company’s policies ultimately hurts the book and the creator.

        ” If they can’t figure out how to count it, then that isn’t my problem.”

        They CAN count. That IS the problem. They count sales, and if they don’t add up, no trade will be published because they assume there’s no interest in the book.

        “And yes, I do preorder trades! I still support this messed up system we buy into!”

        Again, that presumes they intend to put OUT a trade for you to preorder. If the sales of a book aren’t high enough, they won’t even announce a trade to pre-order. Pre-orders don’t enter into this, as they’re usually already on the schedule. What I’m talking about are people hoping Marvel takes “promises and good intentions” into account to influence them put something on its publishing list.

        Let’s simplify the argument to its most ridiculous extreme: Say you bake a dozen cookies. Five people try a single cookie or two, like them, and say “Hey, you should put out more of these in a batch of a dozen at a special price! I can’t afford to keep buying single cookies, but I promise I’ll be a buyer if you do this!” So, you bake 50 12-packs of cookies… Only to find the only people who bought them were the same five people, and maybe another 5 from word of mouth, so now you’re sitting on an excess inventory of 40 extra packs, not moving out the door. So you figure “Okay, failed experiment, I lost too much money on this endeavor, so no more batches.”. Then you have to deal with people yelling “Hey! Why’d you stop? I promised to buy them ONLY if you put them in a bundle! You need to take MY economic realities into account and sink your money into baking them with NO guarantee of buyers because I may want them in the future! You really should change the way you do business and count ME!”

        Ridiculous simplification? Yes. But that’s the reality in a nutshell.

    2. I’m finding it amazing that some companies are still arguing this point or trying to pontificate on how it “should” be done to accommodate them. Readers and others should “take into account” single issue sales into their buying habits? Readers should somehow know how a company counts and doesn’t count profitability? Companies who make vague promises to publish a non-limited series and it will go until eventually. Some day. until I have the sales only through one of my revenue streams.

      Because guess what? Readers don’t care. They need to see consistent storytelling and art at an economical price-point, in a format they desire to justify the purchase, period. Publishers can talk about their financial situation or their “accounting practices as a producer” until they’re blue in the face, none of that will change the reality of the situation, and that their ideas of “how it should be done” are nothing more than spitting into the wind; it’s not going to happen. Look at the problems that occurred when independent comics became a glut: Many buyers wouldn’t order independent comics because they cou’dn’t find high quality stuff, in an affordable package in a format they wanted, so they cut back on everything…

      1. Cute attempt at a rewrite to try and reinforce your view, but ultimately it changes nothing and misrepresents what I said, especially the rewrite of the comics glut.

        When you skip single issues and no trade comes out, your only recourse… is to get the single issues. Trades are never promised or guaranteed. You want to change the system? Get a job with the company and change it instead of getting on a soapbox.

      2. The point of the rewrite holds true, though.

        And, there are other resources and ways to get the stories a want in the format that I want. For Marvel, I subscribe to their online tool (and other, nefarious people can torrent).

        The buying public is moving away from single issue purchases. Marvel can’t change that (unless they drastically lower prices, maybe)…

        You go to your customers in this day and age, they don’t go to you anymore.

        For TV, I time-delay or Netflix everything I watch. Most young people do the same, or if they can’t get it in a good price point in the method they want, well…there are plenty of websites to get what they want.

        Music started the trend (in the opposite direction). People didn’t want to pay for albums, just the tracks they wanted. Hence, after much pain and the rise of torrents…Itunes! Pandora! Spotify!

        The horse has left the barn when it comes to pamphlets full of ads. Now it is time for the companies to adapt.

        Now, if I’m wrong, and the trade sales are actually pretty low because no one is actually buying the trades, then this discussion is moot, as can a few thousand people waiting for the trade cancel the monthly series? Are the 2,000 delayed trade sales going to kill a monthly book selling 23,000 issues/month? (data from: http://www.comichron.com/) And that is assuming all 2,000 sales were from people who held off buying. It seems the numbers were low prior to the trade and even adding 2,000 more, it still would place under the top 100 (which is a shame, btw.)

  21. Just speaking for myself, there’s a simple reason I don’t buy the Comics or the trade for that matter and it isn’t money. It’s because of Marvels policy of “seasonal” comics, and short term sales boost of issue one. Nothing pad has done couldn’t be done in the old numbering but since everything has te be cancelled and rebooted for the elusive new reader, we get a brand new overpriced first issue.
    The things that get forgotten in that scenario: one man’s jumping on point is another’s man’s jumping off point. And by constantly cancelling you are telling this new reader you don’t have faith in your product… So how willing will he be to keep buying it

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