Captain America: The Winter Soldier

69 comments on “Captain America: The Winter Soldier”

1. How delightful to be in an unsuspecting audience! I tried to convince my wife that there was no way Bucky could be him, but it didn’t work. (“How could it be him? He fell off a train and died.” “In the winter. And he was a soldier.” “It’s been like 70 years!” “There is a god in the other movies. I think maybe they can sort that out.”)

   Yeah, it’s great. It’s at least as good as Avengers, arguably better.

   1. Your wife is very, very smart.

   2. My audience was pretty surprised as well. I even heard someone from the other side of the theater say, “Oh snap!”

2. Saw it myself on Saturday night; I was very, very impressed. Like you, I’m looking forward to the impact on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. A game-changer to say the least.

   1. Last Tuesday’s Agents of SHIELD, which Kate and i just watched – for some reason the DVR missed it’s initial run and we had to set it to catch the Saturday one – leads up to some of the revelations, and uses some (slightly re-edited) footage from the film – Fury’s car chase – in the end/”Next Week on…” part.

      (The editing very much resembles the way serials/chapter plays used to cheat on their cliffhangers…)

3. I dunno. For people who regularly read comics, it shouldn’t be a surprise, but, comparing comics sales vs. movie ticket sales, I suspect most of the people in the most of the audiences for this film are NOT regular comics readers.

   Heck, I bet that many audience members needed the memory flashback scenes just to remember who Bucky Barnes WAS.

   The thing that was shocking to ME, and shocks me at EVERY Marvel movie, is how many people get up and leave before the credits even get to the mid-credits scene. At my viewing it was 20-30% of the audience that missed it. And then most of the rest of them left before the critical post-credits scene. How is it possible they don’t know that these scenes are coming?

   1. I have no idea. There were people walking past me and I was saying, “There’s stuff at the end of the credits you’ll want to see” and they ignored me and kept walking.

      PAD

      1. Marvel has had that effect, my wife and I, on the rare occasions we hit the theater rather than waiting for the DVD, tend to stick around to see what if anything is tacked on after the credits roll now…

      2. I’ve learned that some people actively resent those who point out such things when they’ve decided that They Want to Leave the Cinema NOW.

      3. I sit through the credits for the extras, but it gets harder to do because of the length of the credits. I know it’s a union thing, but c’mon, 10-15 minutes/3-4 songs?
         I can see why people don’t want to sit through that and fast forward through the DVDs.

      4. Unfortunately for me, and my wife, after consuming popcorn and soda at the beginning of the movie, by the end of the movie we are desperate to find the facilities, and fast! I have actually run, hit the men’s room, and then returned to see the end of the credits a time or two…

         Which is why we so often wait for the DVD to come out. You can stop and do a biology break anytime you need to!

      5. Alan Hinton: It both is and isn’t the unions – getting your name in the credits is a good way to call yourself to the attention of people who need whatever it is that you did on this film.

         So, yeah, the various crafts and trades have worked through their unions to get the range of people who will be credited, but it actually makes sense.

         In general, if you aren’t looking to hire a greensman or grip or plasterer or whatever, you can ignore the credits.

   2. It still goes to show how little people pay attention though. Marvel practically screamed at the top of their lungs exactly who the Winter Soldier was in the weeks leading up to the release of the movie. Yet if not for those flashbacks, you certainly would have had people walking out of the theater wondering just who the guy was.

   3. Here in China, I was upset when the credits were completely cut off for Thor: The Dark World. So I was very happy when the credits were left intact for Winter Soldier.

      Most of the audience even stayed for the mid-credits scene. However, everyone but me left after that. I was glad that I’d heard there were two, or I would have left, too. Instead it was just me and that one theater attendant, politely holding a box and waiting for me to turn in my 3D glasses.

      Great movie.

   4. The local movie theaters turn off the projects halfway through the end credits, so there isn’t much point in staying. I have to wait for the DVD to watch the final scene.

      1. “projectors”, not “projects”

      2. That’s rude of them.

   5. Many people leave as soon as the credits start, in many movies. We are confirmed credit-watchers (and it never ceases to amaze me how many people it takes to bring one of these things (even a small one) to the screen.

      We’re almost always delighted at what gets shown after the credits roll – sometimes even during the credits (as in the Muppet Movie).

      Review writers ought to end their reviews with “…. and stay for the credits!” (At least, where it counts.)

4. “It” in my above post is “Bucky is the Winter Soldier” of course. Sorry for being unclear.

5. I watched both end credits. I found the first one to be more compelling. It scratched my geek itch more. I sometimes wonder what got into directors that they have to put these out of the flow sequences after the credits. If it’s part of the movie, put it in the movie. I mean, what if you’d had to wait until after the credits to see Raiders warehouse scene? That said, remember the one in Young Sherlock? I can’t think of an earlier instance.

   1. “Young Sherlock Holmes” was ’85. “Airplane!” had a post-credits scene in ’80.

      Though I love the YSH ones.

      In at least some cases, these mid-post-credit scenes aren’t actually the director (I believe that was the case, for example, for “Thor 2” and the Collector scene), but are inserted by the studio as a lead-in to other films. I don’t know if that’s technically the case in “Cap 2” — but I don’t think the first one in “Cap 2” is a necessary part of the film (the one at the very end is, arguably, part of the story being told).

      1. Ferris Bueler’s Day Off also had a post-credits scene.

      2. The furthest one back I can think of is from THE MUPPET MOVIE.

         PAD

      3. The Collector and age of wonder scenes were shot by Gunn and Whedon respectively, so part of the reason to not have it before the credits is because it’s not the same director (although I believe both the tail end sequences were by the directors of TDW and TWS).

   2. Think of it as a way to actually get people to watch the credits. A lot of people put effort into these movies – at least this way we’ll sit though them!

      1. How many actually read them though? My wife and I (and our friends) generally ignore them unless we are curious who played a particular (usually minor) role.

         I know they are important to the movie, but I don;t really care that much to read a list of their names and all the (sometimes ridiculous) titles they hold…

6. I gasped because I thought Bucky was Agamemnon 😉

   1. That brings back memories. Of course, at the time I wrote that, the notion of bringing back Bucky was unthinkable.

      PAD

      1. I still maintain that Bucky shouldn’t have been brought back. But what can you do? That boat has sailed..
         Worries me a little that they’re possibly setting him up to replace Steve Rogers when Chris Evans hangs up his shield. In the comics I think everybody knew that Bucky Cap was going to be temporary unril Steve came back. But that won’t happen in the films. I hope they don’t actually kill off the cinematic Steve Rogers as a result!

      2. No, they’re not going to do that. Even in the comics, that was never going to be more than a temporary gimmick intended to serve only the “Steve Rogers is dead” storyline, and I don’t think there’s any way that’s going to be something that’s going to translate into any permanent or multi-film premise once Evans is gone.

7. I thought the movie was terrific as well (spoiler-free review: http://thearmchaircritic.blogspot.com/2014/04/captain-america-winter-soldier.html ) My one (slight) complaint is one that’s common in the Marvel (or superhero) universe: Why not call on the other heroes for help? After THE AVENGERS you’d think Cap would have a way of contacting the other heroes (except maybe Thor; talk about long-distance calls!) and I’m sure Tony Stark would want revenge on the group that killed his father. (Then again, movies (and comics) would lose most of their suspense if the only consequence of a hero failing was another hero stepping in to save the day. Inherent problem of the genre’s universe, I suppose.)

   1. Let’s see Tony is just out of surgery and he destroyed the suits. Could be during Dark world so Thor has his own problems. If not remember he is hiding. Banner was out of reach according to Fury n the film. Hawk eye was offon. A mission.

   2. Stark lives in California (presumably Banner is with him), which was too far away. Cap needed people who were right there, which is why he turned to the people he turned to.

      Also, he probably still didn’t completely trust him. After all, Stark helped build the new helicarriers.

   3. I suspect we’ll find out that Thor 2, Cap 2, and Iron Man 3 all have overlapping timelines.

      It WOULD have been awesome to see Cap talking to his Avengers ID card saying, “Come on Stark, pick up already.”

      1. They don’t have overlapping timelines. We saw the characters in Agents of SHIELD cleaning up the mess from Thor 2 months ago, but the events in Cap 2 just happened in last night’s episode. I don’t recall anything in Iron-Man 2 that rules out an overlapping timeline, except that there’s no way Tony wouldn’t have mentioned the chaos with SHIELD at some point.

         Keep in mind, there’s no particular reason for Cap to consider these guys to be his best friends. They don’t live in a mansion together. They haven’t been hanging out around the Avengers pool. In the movie universe, the Avengers are a small group of people he went on one mission together. He’s spent a lot more time with the soldiers he went on that pirate mission with, and they betrayed him.

      2. Iron Man 3 takes place well before the Agents of SHIELD series even started, as Extremis and it’s explosive potential are documented and integral to the plot in the pilot episode. No, the movies do not overlap in the slightest. Thor are just busy with his girlfriend, and Banner is, presumably, still listening to Tony drone on and on about his emotional trauma . . . .

8. PS: Where does Stan Lee show up in this one? Sometimes I spend so much attention concentrating on the background that I lose track of the story.

   1. The Smithsonian’s retirement plan must really suck if you have to keep working as a security guard past age 90…

   2. Stan Lee was the guard at the Smithsonian with the Captain America exhibit. Near the end of the movie, when the original Captain America costume has been taken off the mannequin, Stan Lee says, “I am so fired.”

      1. …I *so* thought he was gonna go with another F word there. Even though I knew there was no way he possibly could, it surely sounded like he was lol

         My cousin and I were discussing the “Where’s everyone else?” situation. We figured Thor was off in another world; Hawkeye was on a mission; Hulk was off being Hulk and you don’t actually call in the Hulk anyway; and Tony was being entirely distrusted. Never mind building the helicarrier, his father helped found SHIELD, and looked what that turned into. Not to mention Cap not being Tony’s biggest fan to begin with, or the whole “trust no one” thing in general. Really only leaves Hawkeye, but even assuming he wasn’t off somewhere, there’s still the “trust no one” thing.

      2. Exactly. I mean, he doesn’t trust Natasha (with whom he’s been active on missions for some time); why would he trust the SHIELD assassin who’s Natasha’s (former?) best bud and who most recently was mind controlled by Loki until he was checked out as clear … by SHIELD?

         (Word is we’ll learn more about what Hulk and Hawkeye were up to during this period in the next Avengers movie — but that’s not nearly meta enough of an explanation.)

9. Hello Mr. David. Really liked your review.

   What did you mean by “salad shooter technique”?

   1. I assume “salad shooter technique” refers to the recent (unfortunate) tendency to change the camera angle about 10 times a second during action scenes. Supposedly it gets the audience more into the action, experiencing it in the jerky, quick way that someone actually in a fight actually experiences a fight.

      But more times than not all it really does is make the action dámņëd hard to follow.

      1. Slicing the film up into short clips and then tossing them in a bowl in the editing room, basically.

      2. That and shaky-cam make some recent films and teevee shows hard to watch – i gave up on the new Galactica because the camera work was almost giving me vertigo.

         (BTW – Universal is apparently doing a theatrical BSG that is yet another reboot, different from the recent one.)

10. The problem of “what’s everybody else doing while all this happens” is as old as comics. I had to explain it to my 11-year-old daughter who is becoming thoroughly captivated by the on-screen Marvel Universe.

    My explanation is the same one I told myself reading comics lo, these many years. “If the other heroes aren’t there, you can assume they are busy with another matter.” It helps when stories are told over a relatively short time frame, like this one. It’s much more believable that Iron Man would be preoccupied with something else for a few days. If the story lasted a few months, not so much.

    1. I remember the brief period in the Sixties when Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man and Wasp left The Avengers because Marvel decided it didn’t like them to be having adventures in both The Avengers and their own strips at the same time. Cap’s “Tales of Suspense” adventures were set during World War II at this time.

11. I saw it tonight, and honestly I didn’t care for it. I spent much of the two hour run wishing I had brought a book.

    I’m not big on action movies, unless they have a stylistic twist, are a hybrid of a few genres, or carry the absurdity to 11 (Red, Hot Fuzz, any of the Connery or Moore Bond films). There were a ton of loud explosions and car crashes (stuff blows up real good), but I felt like the film was emotionally hollow. The Winter Soldier failed both as a character and a threat. He’s not menacing or antagonizing enough that we want to see him fail, and we’ve seen this kind of story too many times to believe there’s a serious chance he’ll be redeemed. Both the story and the dialogue were very predictable. It helped pass the time to imagine Alexander Pierce as Pierce Hawthorne from “Community” (and there’s a fun bit of casting in the third act that helps that game along), but I thought the first film was actually more satisfying.

    There are two redeeming points for this movie, however:

    1) The scene where we learn of Armin Zola’s fate is completely insane, and delightful. He’s completely oblivious to the ridiculousness of his situation, yet still manages to appear dangerous.

    2) “Kabuki” artist David Mack designed the end credits. The simplified graphics are not what you’d expect of him, but they’re well worth sticking around for.

    1. “…we’ve seen this kind of story too many times to believe there’s a serious chance he’ll be redeemed.”

       Did you mean to write, “to believe there’s a serious chance he *won’t* be redeemed”? I thought it was pretty clear that Cap would get through to him in the end.

    2. The credits rather reminded me of Maurice Binder-meets-Saul Bass, for some reason

12. Well, I’m sure at some point in the “Marvel Cinematic Universe” we’ll see Bucky get his memories back. It was pretty dámņëd obvious it wasn’t happening this time around, and it was a 50/50 shot as to whether they’d pull the good ol’ “Remembers who he is at the last moment and sacrifices himself for the hero” standby.

    I did enjoy seeing the friendship develop between Cap and Falcon, continuing Cap’s struggle to find his place in the present. The other subplot/ running gag, with Black Widow trying to help him find romance, was beyond contrived. Actually, Scarlett Johannson’s performance (along with her hair) gets worse with each appearance. She seems to give Widow character traits completely at random, basing her actions and personality on whatever the scene requires. Johannson’s a capable actress when given good material, which makes me think that her involvement with Marvel is the result of her not being able to pay her mortgage just by shilling for Israeli soda.

    1. Expectations are a funny thing. I saw the movie yesterday. I had very high expectations and they were met but not exceeded. So I left the theater feeling the movie was just OK but knowing it was great if that makes sense.

       I think the movie nailed the Cap from the early 2000s. To me it felt true to the character in a way the recent Batman and Superman movies have to achieve. I don’t care if the origin, uniform, power, etc. are change but to enjoy the film as a (insert hero name here) movie the core of the character still need to be there. I know what that core is can be something different for everybody. To me Cap is willing to do the right thing even though it is the hard thing and even if he has to do it alone. It does not mean he is uncompromising but he knows where to draw the line.

       I don’t want to spoil it for those who haven’t seen it but I’ll say my favorite scenes was in the control room when the helicarriers are going to lunch before the final battle right after Cap talk through the intercom. And the scene I liked the least was the exposition in the old computer room in the Army base.

       1. Sorry, I had a copy/paste mishap I pasted my old post over the post I was writing just before I hit post. I do not feel like rewriting the whole thing again.

    2. I really enjoyed Natasha’s efforts to find a girl Steve liked. It was one friend trying to encourage another to start dating again. When they’re not beating people up or infiltrating bases, she makes small talk. It seemed perfectly natural to me.

    3. Bucky’s definitely going to either gain his memories back or at least become a hero. Chris Evans only has three more movies in his contract; Sebastian Stan has seven. That’s the perfect amount for him to take over for Steve Rogers after Avengers 3 and star in three Avengers AND Cap movies as the next Captain America.

       1. I’m not sure they’re actually planning on using him in seven more movies. I think 9 is just the standard number that Marvel tries to get everyone to agree to. I think it’s more about them wanting the option to use him for that many movies.

          I’m sure we’ll see him in the next Cap movie, but I’m not sure they have solid plans any farther out than that.

    4. That’s funny, I thought Scarlett Johansson was a lot better in this than she was in The Avengers. And to be fair, her “basing her actions and personality on whatever the scene requires” makes sense for a spy.

13. Expectations are a funny thing. I saw the movie yesterday. I had very high expectations and they were met but not exceeded. So I left the theater feeling the movie was just OK but knowing it was great if that makes sense.

    I think the movie nailed the Cap from the early 2000s. To me it felt true to the character in a way the recent Batman and Superman movies have to achieve. I don’t care if the origin, uniform, power, etc. are change but to enjoy the film as a (insert hero name here) movie the core of the character still need to be there. I know what that core is can be something different for everybody. To me Cap is willing to do the right thing even though it is the hard thing and even if he has to do it alone. It does not mean he is uncompromising but he knows where to draw the line.

    I don’t want to spoil it for those who haven’t seen it but I’ll say my favorite scenes was in the control room when the helicarriers are going to lunch before the final battle right after Cap talk through the intercom. And the scene I liked the least was the exposition in the old computer room in the Army base.

    1. Edit: To me it (Winter Soldier) felt true to the character in a way the recent Batman and Superman movies have FAILED to achieve.

       Sorry, I missed a word there. Also, I want to clarify why. On Batman Begins the scene were batman let Ra’s Al Ghul die and on Man of Steel when Clark let Jonathan die were both wrong each for different reasons.

       Again this is a very personal interpretation of what this character are about. For Batman all human life should be sacred. And with Superman my argument is weaker and even more personal. The source of Superman’s greatness is not his powers but his upbringing, specially his relationship with his father. My favorite aspect of the Byrne reboot was that Jonathan was alive. I enjoyed the smallville TV show until Jonathan death after which the show lost my interest. If I was Clark I would do anything in my power to keep my dad alive, screw the stupid dog and screw who knows my identity.

14. I saw it last night, and when I got home, I watched the latest episode of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. I had heard different people saying that it’s the best Marvel movie ever made, and better than the Avengers, and having watched it, I can see that it deserved that hype. Everything was pulled off extremely well, as it was essentially a Jason Bourne-type espionage thriller set in the Marvel Universe. It was shot well, there were very few glaring plot holes that jumped out at me, the action scenes literally had my heart beating faster, the fight scenes between CA and WS were awesome, and the Pulp Fiction reference was hysterical.

    Regarding audience knowing of WS’s identity, and leaving without watching all the Easter Eggs in the credits, what you have to understand is something I learned decades ago, both through my own moviegoing and through working at a movie theater: Most people who go to the movies do so more for the social experience than because they are movie buffs, or storytelling aficionados, or continuity freaks, much less comics fans. Someone once said years ago that comics fans number about a million in the country. I don’t know how accurate that number was, or if it’s still the case, but you have to understand that the demographic that read Comics Buyer’s Guide is not the moviegoing public. Most people go to the movies because they want to spend two hours vegging out and having a good time. They’re eyes are not peeled to the Internet looking for spoilers, and don’t go in with either the nerdopedia knowledge that we here do, much less a desire to acquire it. They don’t care about the Easter Eggs because they’re not stoked about the continuity with upcoming films as we are. They wanna get in, get out, avoid traffic, and get home to sleep so they can not get into an accident while driving to work tomorrow. And while the Easter Eggs are cool, they’re not essential to understanding the plot of the upcoming films; The filmmakers, if competent, wouldn’t make them so, knowing that people watching those films would be lost: They’ll use whatever exposition is necessary to bring viewers up to speed in those films themselves.

    Those of us who are really into this stuff, like those of us here on this blog, are in the minority.

15. Having finally watched the movie today and then Tuesday’s episode, I am so stoked to see even more of the Hydra story continue. Knowing who the true traitor of Coulson’s team is , how it ties into the movie AND the series as a whole, is very cool. Now we can see why the show has been slow, somewhat, to a point and where it is going from here.

    1. The AoS TV series clearly was doing a lot of “here are the characters and here is the status quo they operate in prior to our upending everything,” which is conceptually great. That said, they’ve done a dreadfully mediocre job in getting us to this point in character and plot, and have lost a goodly number of viewers along the path.

       I hope that this radical change in course (and tie-in to the movie, which was intended from Day 1) will give the series the kickstart it needs, but if it doesn’t, it’s not the fault of needing to wait for the CATWS tie-in.

    2. Also, they only had an initial run of 13 episodes. They need to write the show in a way that they could end it on episode 13 if necessary. Once ABC gave them the full season the show expanded the ongoing story arc.

    3. Is the traitor really a traitor? Can he be going deep undercover instead? It IS a spy show after all. We’ll see next week if and how they dispose of the 3 “dead” bodies in the plane.

16. Very good, yes. As good or better than THE AVENGERS? Don’t believe so. Then again, Cap was never one of my favourite characters.

    Agreed with having a problem with one of the characters who turns out to be a traitor. Must be a ‘deep cover’ thing as someone suggested.

    Also, (not really a spoiler, is it?) Natasha’s stated birth date simply doesn’t jive with the mention of her and the KGB. The KGB was dissolved in ’91. Natasha would have been seven years old at the time. A tad young to be the successful field agent we know her as. Then again, given all the fake identities she’s created over the years, how hard could a fake birth certificate be?

    List me as one who doesn’t care for the salad shooter camera technique.

    1. I don’t recall the mention of her involvement in the KGB in the movies. Could you remind me of what exactly they said?

    2. The KGB was dissolved in ’91 *on our Earth*. Nothing says that the Soviet Union didn’t fall 10, 15, 20 years later in the MCU, or that it’s not still going strong. If their super team is going strong, it would certainly help to keep things going.

       Or, for that matter, that she’s not 20 years older with a version of the Super Soldier serum (she quite clearly has more-than-human reflexes) helping keep her youthful appearance and a faked birth certificate that fooled Zola.

       And yes, the salad-shooter shakycam has to go away. Other than that, though, I hugely enjoyed the movie, just as much the second time around as the first. And I loved Natasha’s continually trying to set up Steve on a date. And wonder if she knew who the ‘nurse next door’ was the first time she suggested her. The Arnim Zola scene was a fantastic nod without being ridiculous; the Falcon wings seemed believable (and I hope the assault on the fort to retrieve them is included as a bonus feature on the DVD); the “Commander Rogers” uniform at the beginning was easily his best outfit yet and I hope he gets it back.

    3. This is Natasha we’re talking about. I hold zero faith in Zola’s information being correct. More likely it’s a lie she sold to SHIELD to disguise her true age. (In the comics it’s been revealed she is MUCH older than she appears, a la Nick Fury.

17. Natasha laments to Steve about how she migrated from the KGB to S.H.I.E.L.D. I don’t recall the exact scene, but it was after the scene in which the Zola computer says that she was born in 1984.

    I thought the shaky cam worked perfectly well with the fight scenes. They were great.

    I wouldn’t say it was better than The Avengers because they weren’t the same type of film, and weren’t setting out to accomplish the same thing. I would say that the The Avengers was the best possible superhero team movie, and had a tone perfectly suited to that; Winter Soldier, on the other hand, was an excellent espionage thriller set in the Marvel superhero universe, and fulfilled the tone and expectations for that genre.

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